Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[IH]

Sweet, here, sorry. Forgot :Embarrased:

I feel like I'm late for class....

Vote:Vitamin

He is most definitely scum this time

[IH]

unvote, vote:John

Good call on that one Vit. I thought his statement looked Iffy, but I wasn't exactly sure what it meant, but you're probably right.

Tony, why didn't you put your vote on him if you thought it sounded good?

[IH]

I was late to the game and again I apologize. While catching up I made note of John's post, but this is only my second game and I learned not to be vote happy. Also, if we lynch him now what information do we have to go on for tomorrow?

There are more players than in a newbie game. With Twelve alive it's 7 to lynch.

Also this a mountainous nightless game.

Scum need 4 mislynches to win, right? So we have a guaranteed 4 days. Yet, with every person we lynch, the town gains "an extra life" since scum kills can't exactly balance it out.

Look at it this way.

with 12 alive, 4 are scum.

We lynch correctly, we're at 8 townies 3 scum left.

That's a guaranteed 5 days. We have some room to mislynch. We shouldn't get careless, but we shouldn't mind putting some pressure on people, because if scum speedlynch, then we have enough room to lynch them right back.

[IH]

Yes, it's very suspicious. We don't even have a real page and everyone is already jumping on john.

Vote blahgo
Fos IH and VitaminR

Seems like an attempt to start a bandwagon to me.
Vit for starts it
IH agrees to keep it moving
blahgo doesn't even give an explanation, thats why he gets the vote. We need more to go on before we lynch in a nightless

I'd imagine you should go read my former post.

Bandwagons are not intrinsically bad, but you need to watch who jumps on for no reason at all.

Like Blahgo.

FoS:Blahgo

Speedlynches are just as scummy, because they indicate rushing the town through a lynch, and that you want the game to be over as soon as possible.

Speedlynches are almost always bad.

[IH]

Those of you who were talking about the John mini wagon of like... what, Two, maybe three votes?

Quit using the slippery slope

I think I'm going to

unvote, vote:Occult

at the moment.

Not for Blahgo at the moment, but just for mischaracterizing that as a lynching wagon.

[IH]

HAI SKRUFFS!

[IH]

I'm here

[IH]

And now Skruffs(NARs replacement) and Vitamin are very organized in attacking me.

1) why are you so sure skruffs is a townie?
2) I believe you mentioned earlier about how a double standard is scummy. So why are you using a double standard?
3)FOS VitaminR and Skruffs as a possible scum pair.

I'm not sure where my vote is at the moment but...

Unvote, Vote:Occult

if you'd read those posts he quoted, he never said he was sure Skruffs was town, but he said Mustafa looks townie ish. Mustafa=\=Skruffs, and you seem to be making that connection.

i dont recall this from my reread, however, IF TRUE, it is a point that should be noted. also i am concerned at the lack of mention of connection between IH and VitaminR (the former of whom joined him on a wagon with little justification if i remember rightly).

BM

If you'd look at my last nightless game, I love to wagon in nightless games, especially for smaller scumtells in the beginning of the game. You have to keep the game moving and not let it stall, or else you give scum the game by letting them lurk and evade being talkative.

I think at the moment, Occult is the scummiest player, as I've stated before.

NAR was just too scummy for me to not jump on, he switched his vote like 6 times in 8 posts. Probably looking back, he was being NAR-ish, and I think Skruffs is protown at the moment.

[IH]

Reasons for voting Occult

1)In his first post he FoS's John for his slip up, and in his very next post he FoS's Vit for starting it, and me for jumping on, which is contradictory as there was an FoS from him in the first place, which indicated suspicion.
Plus bandwagons are not intrinsically bad. Duh.

2)His 'closesness with John'

Examples:

I'll solve this:

If you are scum *Cough john Cough* please say I.

Blahgo's reason for voting john would also be nice.

Slightly scummy question, while defending him

Yes, it's very suspicious. We don't even have a real page and everyone is already jumping on john.

Vote blahgo
Fos IH and VitaminR

Seems like an attempt to start a bandwagon to me.
Vit for starts it
IH agrees to keep it moving
blahgo doesn't even give an explanation, thats why he gets the vote. We need more to go on before we lynch in a nightless

Defense from a John wagon

By the way john, this is the secound game where I've seen you draw attention to yourself with a pre-game comment.
You might want to be a little more careful with those.

Indication of familiarity

3)

I'm not assuming John is town, but I do see his reasoning for his question.

I saw it as a quick bandwagon as it looked like th lynch was going to come in under 4 pgs.

And until blahgo addresses why he didn't give any reasoning my vote stands

When that was clearly not turning into a lynch, but more of a less than random wagon to get things started.

4)

I'm playing in a few games with john and in those games he has asked a pregame question that ended up racking 4 or 5 votes on him.

What he didn't do is vote 3 times, sporaticly attack people and run off around 10 posts in 7 mins. NAR freaked out and I voted for him.
That said the fact NAR had been screwing around is possible so,

Unvote

I'll ignore NAR's previous posts.

5)

He got to -2 on the secound page.

This is a lie.

[IH]

I'm sorry, that was Occult's post, not John, as I was going through the filter.

Major FoS:John

[IH]

Errr, how?

[IH]

I'll respond to the rest later but this jumped out at me.

I think Occult is town because of the strong bandwagon against him.

If Occult is scum, Tony is almost certainly his partner me thinks. This is in no way any evidence pointing to Occult's townieness. If there have been more than 4 people on him, which I doubt will all be scum, then he's clearly been scummy, and probably scum.

FoS:Tony

[IH]

Mostly, when I make observations about Tony's alignment, it is from experience of dealing with newer players, especially in newbie games, with less finished games under their belt.

[IH]

EBWOP:That looks awkward.

*My observation about tony's alignment is like some of my others, from my experiences of dealing with newer players, especially in newbie games, or about players with less finished games under their belt.

[IH]

I'm here hold on.

[IH]

No BM, I'm pretty sure the times I've seen you quiet, you were scum.

[IH]

I'm sorry to ask also but.... what is Tony's reasons for Occult being town again?

[IH]

The bandwagon
Usually a townie is lynched day 1

That's all I have.

This is extremely faulty logic. This is a nightless game, so I'm at least a little wary of the game stalling of course. How best to start a game? A wagon. A wagon on someone doesn't meant that the person is town. Especially since the FIRST bandwagon was on John, so if anyone would be close to that it would have to be John, and under the circumstances, I doubt thats what happened.

Also Tony, you have a little bit of a gap. Bandwagons form on day1, but the bandwagons don't go to lynches till later.

I'm just saying this a crap reason to try and clear occult.

[IH]

Anyone who is voting for Tony for defending Occult is a moron btw.

I'm serious guys, occult is the play. I've layed out my reasons before, plus, given Tony's join date, I'm pretty sure we'll get a good idea of his alignment also.

[IH]

Of course, no doubt, there is scum on this Occult wagon no matter if he is scum or town.

Why do you think so?

It sounds like he is dangerous town or scum.

unvote

vote John

This and his pregame question are my reasons.

Mmk, this guy is opportunistic scum.

Occult today, Tony tomorrow.

[IH]

Also, I don't want there to be a modkill, so I'm joining the search for a replacement quicklike. ^_^

[IH]

Mod, deadline rules?

Deadline is sunday guys..

[IH]

bleh.

Vote:tony

[IH]

Skruffs was obviously Joking.

Tony I already described that you were a good lynch for today. There is no sense in stressing the we lynched a townie.

Would it have made you feel better "OH OH AH AH AH, WE'RE WRONG, WE HAVE THREE MISLYNCHES LEFT, AAAHHH", no I go onto voting who I'm suspicious of next, which is you.

[IH]

You could do more to find scum or information, but won't. This is the same thing you did day 1 with Occult.

vote IH

I'm pretty sure that if I am not the top contributor of this game, I am pretty close. This is just an omgus. I'm also pretty sure I layed my case out on Occult very plainly and clearly. He was just scummy town.

You've convinced me even more with your omgus vote andthat you are just trying to throw suspicion on me. Especially the fact that you tacked on "Same thing you did with Occult". If you'd go through the filter, I'm pretty sure that I layed out very plain and logical things on Occult.

[IH]

1.Describe "Scripted play" and compare it to my other games.
2.How? By not laying cases against scummy players and attacking them? Since that is untrue.
3.This is a straight up lie. If you were attacked, it was for defending him and distracting away from him. Probably from a line like "We shouldn't lynch him, let's lynch someone else!" Which is a common scum tactic to save a buddy. This wasn't the case, but it was probably why you got attacked.

[IH]

fos:aimee

I hate the wording of that last post.

[IH]

Welcome Guardian. A favor for LFR? Do you come from another site?

IH, I disagree that tony is a good lynch. I am not nearly suspicious of him as I am of other players. I think the town made a mistake in not lynching John yesterday, and that he is a good play for today. I don't see your tony argument, and I think that while Tony isn't articulating his argument against you well there is one there. I think you are just trying to quiet a dissenter. I don't have a strong feeling about Ton'y allignment, though, so maybe this is just more distancing.

If you would look at his actual arguments, and see that there is almost no logic in the, I believe you might agree.
My "4 misses" comment was on how many we have to win. If we lynch correctly, we extend our "lives" by one. If we lynch incorrectly we reduce them by one. So we lynch correctly today, we have 4 misses again. We're currently at three.
Do you have some actual quotes/logic on how Vit and I are linked? As in, linked with alignment?
Could you quote mine and Skruffs craplogic?
You should read some of NAR's other's games, and see why we aren't holding this against Skruffs.
What did you think of the Occult case at the time? Yes he is town, but even if all of the scum were on there, it would have had to convince 3 more townies, correct? It was hardly a speedlynch.

Mod

being stricter with deadlines is a disadvatange to town with your rules, because they can just watch the lynch go through easier by perpetuating less posts....
How did I steer the town away from a John lynch?
I'd like somthing a little more specific to defend against.

[IH]

OK Guardian.

First off, if we are extremely careful with our votes, then this game will stall. That is why the FIRST nightless did not stall. Because we were free with our votes.

Secondly, HOW would stressing over a townie help the town in any way? You never do that, and continue on with hunting scum. Mourning a townie with posts like "Aw that sucks!" does nothing, except add some nice appeals to emotion (Look at me! I'm town, cause I'm sad cause we mislynched! Wooo!)

If you think Tony is town, could you point out the flaws in his case?

Could you also outline why you think I'm scum (other than craplogic), and how I'm connected to Vit?

[IH]

If we are not careful with our votes, scum will be able to steer the lynches and win. Did they win nightless one?

Nope, town won ,V,,

Stressing makes you be more careful with votes in the future.... Not stressing makes it seem OK for there to be another mislynch.... and then you can be all, "oh, well don't stress, let's just try again"....

No, not really. Stressing is in no way a pro town point. It's leaning more towards a scumminess point, same thing as commenting on night kills. All you're doing is trying to affirm in the minds of other players that you are protown, instead of actually BEING protown.

Yes I could, but I'm not sure doing so would help the town, it would only help you ammend your behavior. Town players can see the errors for themselves.

Then you are blatantly defending Tony. If you see flaws in a case against someone you think is town, then you should show them. Not doing so is just scum deflecting a case from his partner.

FoS:Guardian

Also, I lack the time required (as of this moment) to do what you request, even if I wanted to. There are flaws, and you and Vitr are definitely linked though, from near the beginning of the game onward.

I will continually ask for these until I see results. Until then I consider I have nothing further to defend myself against.

[IH]

Defending town players IS NOT a scum tell. It isn't a "town tell", I am still unsure about Tony, but it is DEFINITELY NOT a scum tell. Pursuing Tony because of this is just more bad logic. I understand looking at him with suspicion yesterday, but today? Come on.

No, defending town players from a crap case is not. Defending players illogically is. That means they KNOW they are town, yet there is no way they can do that unless they are scum. Use your head.

Now, I will do exactly for tony, what I did for Occult. I will do a pbp of WHY I find him scummy.

Also, I note your unwillingness to vote for John. If he turns up scum (which I think he will, but I'm not as sure on him as I am on you) all the arrows will point to IH scum.

Why don't you give me a case first, before you make a statement like this.

I am not sure that spelling everything out like this is the best pro town strategy, but with a deadline... I definitely want to see an IH lynch, a John lynch would be acceptable though.

No, unless you have a power role, you always divulge everything you know. There is NO reason to with hold information when you are a townie, unless you are scum. This is an uninformed Majority (Town) versus an informed minority (Scum). The town wins when they become informed (Finding all of the scum and lynching them) Scum wins when they become the informed majority (By keeping the town uninformed)

Still waiting on that linkage.

[IH]

Occult was an easy target. He was almost asking to be lynched. Now you see me as an easy target and are moving foward with your agenda.

So.... you're saying he was a scummy player. Three kinds of players are easy targets. new ones, Stupid ones, and scummy ones. Ok, Occult was new, but the only person who was NOT new was Vitamin I believe. John would have been a much easier target, but I clearly found Occult more suspicious, as I pressed his wagon the whole day.
Ok, so I found him a scummy player. Not to mention that he wasn't lynched until deadline, so he must not have been that easy of a target. I am still curious as to WHY you defended him the whole day, when virtually nothing pointed to him being town.

3) IH... I feel that you are just making stuff up here. Tony defending Occult because he thought Occult was a townie being lynched. His reasoning was subpar, but your reasoning about how defending townies is scummy strikes me the wrong way indeed.

Ask yourself these questions Guardian.
1.Was the case on occult bad or not thought out. ( I don't believe so)
2.How rational was Tony's defense of Occult? (Not very rational)
3.So, if the case wasn't irrational, how did Tony seem to know yesterday that I was pressing against a town lynch?

Meh, I'll bandwagon.

Vote:IH

Why?

[IH]

[quote="Skruffs]IH, your post seems to suggest you saw that Occult was an easy target day one - but you still pushed hard for him, even as you say, laying out a case against him. If you were perceptive enough to notice he was an easy target - why did you still push for him? To the point of saying that People voting tony for defending occult were moronic?
[/quote]

No, I was voting Occult for the case I layed out of course. Looking back, he was probably an easy target towards the end of the day, but not when I began a case against him. In fact, the case stalled at first, as I pressed one earlier in the day, and then brought it back up.

People voting for Tony for protecting Occult Yesterday seemed moronic to me, because they clearly would find Occult scummier if they thought Tony was defending him.

- Who was Occult suspicous of?
- Who had valid reasons for voting Occult?
- Which players jumped on the wagon and didn't contribute much?

Ok, now this actually looks like town questions. Mk, the first question isn't that useful. It could be a factor to take into account for, but look at it this way, just because he had the town's best interests at heart, didn't mean he was right about them.

The second question is good.

So is the third.

If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't.

False dillemma. First she starts off between just choosing between me and John. Then she seems to try and continue that train of though, but actually tries to open it up to all range of players. Do you see what I mean.

First she just includes the two of us.

Then she says I'm not the target for today really, which then opens up to the whole scope of the town.

Then she makes it out as if we could be the only two targets, and will vote him if he doesn't come up with any other reasons.

FOS:Aimee

Well, dont vote me because of what John did, John might just have a Scum style of play. Read MY posts, Then decide.

yes, but you are of the same alignment, so it wouldn't really matter.

Romanus is right, Aimee is bandwagoning, Which is a VERY well known Scumtell.
You can call this an Omgus Vote, But, leading back to What Romanus said, You are not asking me questions, and anything at all I say will make you think I am scum. Plus, You didnt vote me anyways, So Its not Omgus.

Again, John may have gave you all suspicons of me, But Im not John! See if I am scummy or not. Do not judge me by Johns actions..

Unvote, Vote: Aimee

You just voted me, and called it a bandwagon vote, so that is a scumtell by your logic.
You just followed Romanus, and following someone is a scumtell.
You also admit she didn't vote you, but it was a bandwagoning?

Regarding this contradictions, I'm pretty sure this is a much better case than my tony case.

unvote, Vote:YogurtBandit

Regarding some things that Tony has said, I believe I WILL do a full pbp on him, because sometimes I will blow things up in my mind while thinking about them on accident = \ [bIGMEOY:Tony[/b] pending a PBP.

I also really disagree that Aimee is the lynch for today.

IH is the lynch for today, because he is scum.

There was actually some reasoning behind his case on Tony, though. I will ponder this over the next day...

Awesome reason :Laugh:

I also think it's interesting that guardian was voting me for not pressing a John case. So he thinks I am defending him or distracting from his case. I am therefore today's lynch.

This would imply that I am scummier than him. Yet, he doesn't believe that scum would defend townies, as he has stated, and they would be more likely to defend their buddy. I am, in a sense, supposedly distracting from it.

What I'm getting at is, if he doesn't think that scum would defend a townie, then why isn't he voting for Yogurt Bandit? Because for this reasoning to work out, He would have to be scum before I am scum.

Note

:His vote came BEFORE I made my comment about scum defending townies also. So I am taking information I have about his policies now, and applying them to his actions prior to that point.

[IH]

I agree with the majority of this post. In a normal game, I can see some WIFOM logic in which Tony woiuld try to use his defense of a town player as a defense for himself, though in a nightless I dont think scum can afford to attempt to derail townie lynches.

You do have to remember that scum have to last through much more town scrutiny in this game than in any other type of game.

[IH]

Someone brought up that the reason we are lynching YB is his mistake and John's pregame question. I find him scummy for completely different reasons, and I think that this reason alone is a horrible reason to lynch someone. Everyone voting for him, please explain why you are voting for him; I find that pre-game question as a town tell not a scum tell for reasons I outlined earlier, and I will be suspicious of anyone who is on the YB lynch just because of that question, especially if YB turns up town... YB being lynched for that reason alone is quite disturbing.

Just posted in two posts previous to this one.

I see what Skruffs is saying about the lynches of course. I will admit I was on both, but I was on every single lynch last game. Go ahead and check = )

[IH]

I think that three scum are thowing their new comrade under the bus - but I have no problem with this. If not, then we have mystery scum #4 and Skruffs IH and Vitr still seem scummy to me, though I would be wrong about Skruff's leading his buddies. I am like 80% sure YB is scum though... IH still would have been a better lynch for today, I'm like 90% sure on him.

Notice that all three of Guardians scumlist, other than YB, are the experienced players.

IH - what role were you in that game? Did it work?

Town, yep. We actually caught the last scum for voting to perfectly.

Gah. I just don't expect him to come, so I don't want Aimee to have to wait for him if YB comes and mustafa has yet to come. I would obviously prefer if we got his reasons before YB is lynched - I would like his reasoning at any time he can provide it, though.

I doubt YB is going to post suspicions or that mustafa is going to come. I am very tempted to just lynch now so we can move on to day 3.

Yeah, I know you don't expect him too, but that's no reason to give him a pass to do so. You'd think someone would be MORE suspicious.

Mod:Can you prod Mustafa, if you haven't already?

He has not yet responded to his prod

I'm also curious as to why you seemed to changed your mind in around 8 hours. You don't have to hammer, because of the deadline and the deadline rules. So, what is it. Hear them or not?

[IH]

First of all, we have 4 more mislynches. = )

Slight FoS:Vitamin

from a hunch

Guardian, Did you ever point out the link of me and VitR guardian?

I would still like to know why Guardian was voting me yesterday, when he had clearly stated repeatedly that YB seemed scummier. I believe one of the points on his case against me was that I didn't want a YB lynch. So why would he vote me instead of YB?

Skimmy PBPs of the dead I think.

It should IMO, But thats regardless.

It has nothing to do with scum or town. It has to do with who is ignorant of the situation or not. Your twisting this on me.

If its a valid question, then why the vote?

FoS: VitaminR

I was wondering why this was just an FoS instead of a vote. Mostly because his last two votes were because of someone's avatar, and someone else having bad luck with posts.

Implications are hard to acertain with text, NAR. try cold hard evidence.

Unvote, FoS: NARJust cause i think i had a vote on him, but i forgot so this is just in case. this new server thing is almost like a fresh start to me.

Same thing here.

[quote="John"}Whoa. what the hell. Unvote, Vote: IH
You follow someone elses vote yet again right after someone votes for them. plus your absense is weird. An you vote because he was trying to make a connection, which is not scummy in my opinon.

I also find it weird that 3 votes are on occult on page 9, when not much has changed since the last page.

Im not defending occult, im meerly curious and disturbed on how fast the became L-2. IGMEOH, as i stated earlyer, but the tables turned way too fast in my opinion.

FoS: Mustafa because he gave better reasons to vote for other people, yet voted occult anyway. you say that Aimee's and Tony's behavior are scummy... yet you dont do anything about it. you seem hellbent on lynching occult, and weather or not your right, focusing on one person when more evidence surrounds you is simply not helping.

[/quote]

John's first serious vote in the game.

Which he immediately backed away from in his next post.

I think Romanus is town based on this statement.

Romanus- he seems to be lurking in a clever fashion to me.

I don't believe that John would try and distance this way.

I believe I was the closest one to have any kind of link with Yogurt Bandit.

Meh, I'll bandwagon.

Vote:IH

Romanus is right, Aimee is bandwagoning, Which is a VERY well known Scumtell.

This was why I was personally voting YB. The clear contradiction.
Bleh, I know the statement I am about to make is WIFOM, but do you believe a new player would try to hop on a bandwagon of one of his partners? (I hate this statement just looking at it. = | )

Currently on Occult's Wagon

-IH seems, IMO, to lean mostly towards town...
-VitR and skruffs are leading the wagon and gave the reasons we've discussed on the last few pages
-I don't really like BM's vote, he just hopped on to put me a -2 without much reason.
-Mustafa seems the scummiest person on the wagon, he points out problems with other people and then votes for me.

I still have a bad feeling with VitR and skruffs, but they've been consistant. Mustafa and BM will be the two to watch tommorow.

We also haven't heard much from those who arn't wagoning. It's also important we get thier clear oppionions.

I would like people's opinions on this post.

[IH]

I amsooooooooooo sick >.< so myreasoning may not be sound atm
But I would like to go back and see who did the most to push the wagon from john onto occult day one. Esp anyone who claimed vitr/me's arguments as the reasoning for it.

it actually shifted from John, to Occult defending John, to NAR, to me pushing for Occult. So I am probably the one to blame for that.

[IH]

What are you getting at with this point? I was just curious. (im sorry this is the best my reread came up with) Also, Im a fairly experienced player, so the point doesnt really make sense, as I'm not up there.

Yes, but you have been silent, which=less attention.

Aimee has posted in numerous games she's on vacation this week.

[IH]

Excuse me, for some reason I thought the majority of players in this game were inexperienced.....

Probably because when this game started, before replacements there was a majority of newish players.

Actually it's around half, as Aimee has completed one game I believe. She should be in the inexperienced.

[IH]

A red herring or a strawman?

May I ask what I'm distracting from? The case that is still getting typed up? A wagon on Aimee that even Guardian disagrees with?

Considering VitR's response to one of my posts I am curious as to why he is still voting me.

[IH]

I'm pretty sure he meant Red Herring... I don't think I misrepresented you. You are distracting from actual good arguments. Bringing up Red Herrings like that one is part of why I think you are mafia.

By that token any new point in a case brought up could be considered a red herring, you do realize that?

[IH]

IH - I don't quite follow. Bad logic cases are Red Herrings, good logic cases are not. If I committed a logical fallacy please let me know...

Actually thats a type of logical fallacy, a red herring is a distraction AKA a decoy I believe.

I am happy you agree with me that slinging votes around is irresponsible unless you feel confident about them. I feel really sure that IH is the play. I was kind of dreaming that I wouldn't have to put all the effort into building the IH case, which is going to be a pain in the neck, but I will also work on one.

FoS

Perhaps I'm misreading this but..... opportunistic scum looking for an easy case?


(Bleh I know I'm playing this game poorly, I got apathetic after day 1)

[IH]

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... ed_Herring

^^^Red Herring, a specific logical fallacy.

[IH]

IN case I forget it in my next post, I'll be gone from Sunday=Friday

[IH]

He is your partner and you felt the need to random vote him?

Pure Wifom speculation

This is obvious, and has been brought up before.

Can't help that it was.

Here he defends himself (and thus Vitr) of the pairing and asks that he should go read earlier posts. He then diverts attention to blagho.

I said he should go read my earlier post, which pretty much said bandwagoning isn't intrinsically bad I believe. Do you disagree?

Blahgo was most definitely scummy, I'm not sure how I was diverting attention.....

Uses the same reasons IH used, but then distances from IH and John by moving on to mustafa.

Do you disagree with those same reasons? This is foolish believing someone is linked because reasoning is similar... the game would never move forward if everyone disagreed on everything.

Different logic, same result. Notice how Vitr also defends Skruffs here.

You do realize that that was post 69, and post 118? That's 51 posts away, aka 2 pages.

And here he uses the exact same logic IH used.

It was true though.

What link? Come on. John then FOS's Occult in the next post; no wonder they felt the need to lynch John day two.

So, I'm going to go pick a random bandwagon, and say you're linked to them. Seriously this logic is ridiculous.

IH-Skruffs.

This is stupid IMO. It seems to defeat the purpose of the game if you don't say who you think is town and who you think is scum

Vitr and IH (in point 3) have the exact same reasoning. Also note how IH uses closeness with John as a scumtell...

For the next few pages Vitr + IH use similar reasoning for Occult lynch, whereas Skruffs + IH push for the John lynch (bus imo).

You say we use the same logic, but it was

true

logic. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. That we were both correct, so therefore we both are scum?

Jokes are scummy.

Jokes like that one are scummy.

Trying to throw suspicion on someone for making a joke is scummy

And you needed to defend him after two others had, because?...

Because of people like you and statements like the one above.

[IH]

Why? No one can seem to agree on who is scum (except a lot of people want to lynch Aimee, which I think is a bad play), and I was thinking about how we could win the game despite that. It seemed to me that with one scum down, finding out four very likely townies would be just as helpful as finding three very likely scum (which again, I think I've done...).

No, because you're trying to set up an alliance in a mafia game, AND YOU'RE NOT POOKY. Mostly because you seem to have a bias. Pooky's alliances are pretty much "You wanna join Team Wise Men Of The West?"

Seriously, scum trying to keep their buddies farther.

Not to mention, the whole idea of the game are town separating who is scum and who is not. That's why we have multiple days.... to agree on who is scum.

If I were scum and the three of you are town, how is that bad....? You would have two tries to lynch me, and if you guys thought I was scum and lynched me, it would still result in a town win.

But what if you are scum, and someone else on the team is scum that you picked?

Plus, there are more than 8 people in this game right now. You can't force them to listen.

[IH]

Actually

unvote, vote:Guardian

Those look like really contrived links imo, and the fact that it took so long makes me think even more that he just kind of went through and made them up.

Also, I don't like the sound of his alliance plan..... thing.

[IH]

Hey Vit. Theres another link.

[IH]

I'd still like to see the case against me.

Still limited access though, found out the hotel has wifi ,V,,

[IH]

1. Distances here, then sets up Occult wagon later when pressure builds on John. Possibly the scummiest post of the game, imo.

Silly guardian, while I will admit that is a scummy post, you continue to talk like i just pulled a distracting case on occult out of thin air. This was clearly not the case.

4, I've already quoted his logic about how we have 4 lives, and explained how I hated it, and how it is misleading because for every townie we lose it gets that much easier for scum to lead the wagon. This has been discussed a lot back and forth. I believe his logic will not possibly help the town.

I stand by how it's a true statement. Nightless games are more likely to stall, as we've seen with consecutive deadlines, and play like that is just the way to keep the game going. I have nothing to defend against here, as it is true, town has 4 lives. For every correct lynch, we gain an extra life.

2, 3, I think he had bad reasons for lynching Occult, Occult's mischaracterizing the wagon as a lynching wagon seemed innocuous to me, he votes Occult for closeness with John (why vote Occult for closeness with John, unless you know John is scum or suspect John more than Occult?), and for ignoring Skruff's earlier posts.

Quote the case against occult and tell me how it was so flawed.

3, Later tries to get Tony lynched for defending Occult... a townie... Then says "Anyone who is voting for Tony for defending Occult is a moron btw." even though he is in part voting for Occult for Occult's closeness with John...

You've got it wrong buddy. I said on day 1 that anyone voting him for defending occult was a moron. Day 2 is an entirely different story.... you act like first I attacked him, and THEN said anyone attacking him for that reason was stupid.

3, OMGUS's Tony when Tony points out that Occult is being singleminded about lynchign Tony.

Where? I'd like a quote

5, 3, Then FOS's Aimee for her choosing John over IH at deadline, goes along with the suspicion piled onto Aimee.

How does this even make sense? I didn't fos her for choosing him over me, I fosed her for trying to make a false dillema. Read the posts.

1, 5, I say that I note his reluctance to vote John, he initially says this is BS with me having no case against him, and then a few posts later votes John.

I said that because it took you a DAY AND A HALF to give it.

[IH]

No, you pulled an Occult case out of him mis characterizing a bandwagon as a lynch wagon. That's much better.

No, I'm pretty sure that was NOT the main case on him.

For every townie we lynch, it becomes easier for scum to steer the town. I stand by finding this point scummy.

Are you stupid? Seriously? That is how it is in EVERY mafia game. I never said this was untrue. So why are you trying to hold it against me?

Your case on Occult was largely due to how he mis characterized a John wagon as a lynch wagon - firstly, this connects you with John, secondly, terrible reason to lynch someone.

No, I want you to QUOTE the case, which I'm sure I outlined in a specific post, and sow me flaws. I don't believe that this is a flaw, and I don't believe this was the only point I made either against him. He mischaracterized two votes into a major wagon I believe.

NO, I am drawing a parallel. You on day one are mostly attacking Occult for his thoughts on the John lynch wagon, and for his defense of John. You then say that no one should lynch Tony day one for his defense of Occult. While you attack Occult on day one for his defense of John. Your argument is hypocritical.

No, not at all. Occult attacked people for being on the john wagon. Tony defended occult. One involved attack, one involves defense.

You FOS'd her because she had a real deadline dilemma, and went along with the crowd in attacking her.

No, I fosed her for a false dillema. I don't believe we had a deadline when that post was made.

I am honestly getting very frustrated with this game, I lay out cases and suspicions and people either disregard them or try and say I am scummy for trying to build the case... And no matter how much I type against IH, he keeps responding "well no, that is wrong." or "well, more evidence please" or "NO U". Gah!

and that is the definition of defense. If you are being frustrated, and it's not convincing people, then perhaps the case isn't as good as you thought it was.

Romanus I would like to know why you think Vitr and I are the most townie.

Actually,

unvote, vote:Romanus. IGMEOY:Guardian

1.Dodging the question in 662-3

2.Jumping from "This is a good case" to agreeing with me "This is a bad case"

[IH]

I am a him .

[IH]

I want to hear Vitr's thoughts on Guardian;s case against me.

[IH]

^^^I don't like the above post from Romanus

Look at my Sig

[IH]

Silly Guardian.

I'll review the thread in a bit.

[IH]

...... Sorry guys, this is like the only game I've let get away from me that I really need to post on >.<,

though I REALLY don't like Romanus's last post.....

I'm going out on a limb, and I think they're scumbuddies.

Are we in lylo though?

[IH]

Tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch btw.

I hate the idea of picking people to lynch predetermined, and lynching them. This is a scum tactic btw, since it does indeed minimize the information we get, and just kinda randomly lynches to the end of the game.

Going through a skimmy type reread, I don't see anything outstanding I really want to comment on.

I don't know if I actually trust Aimee's read myself though. The only info I'd trust from her when she's dead is when she's scum, and then she's pretty telling i think.

As town.... eh, no offense, but I usually find her to be off. I'm more interested in who jumped on her lynch and campaigned it kind of mindlessly. Like Romanus (Posts like 754).

I think..... I wanna do a Romanus PBP. If it comes out like I think it will, then I'll probably be voting him.

The remaining scum...... Romanus, Guardian..... and I dunno. Mebe STD.

This was an extremely lame post after such a long leave of absence, but I'm trying guys X_X

[IH]

Rereading, made it to page 8! Should finish anytime from tonight till tomorrow.

[IH]

X_X Sorry guys I got real busy this week and had to leave on Saturday, I'll try and resume my reread tonight

[IH]

Checking in while my reread goes on to welcome Jath.

[IH]

1.I knew Mustafa was scum! MoS replaced him!
2.I'm going to post and then continue with my reread, so I'll go over the past five pages or so at a skim, comment on some things, and then finish my reread, I'm about a 12-14 pages in, because I don't have 3 hours to sit at the computer anymore engrossed in a reread. = |

[IH]

If I can hold my head up tonight I'm going to attempt to post and continue my reread.

I hurt my neck Saturday morning >.<;

[IH]

I'm here and broke down in my constitutions to finish this reread. X_X

I am on page 26..... I made it 13 pages tonight! So Sometime soon I will have a substantial post.

[IH]

Skruffs did you mean to just vote oman, or just bold his name?

<3

[IH]

I've made it to page 37 and will finish when I return tonight.

A slight summary of my suspicions.

NOTE:THE POST IS A REREAD, AND WILL BE TREATED AS READING THE THREAD WITH A FLUIDITY. NOTHING IS CONCRETE UNTIL THE FINAL PARAGRAPH OR TWO IN IT.

Scum-
Mustafa

Neutral on the scummy side
VitR
Guardian
Romanus

[IH]

Surprise!

Mod shouldn't it be

11. Thok (replacement for STD replacement for HautBoy replacement for MissMoo replacement for irrumator replacement for DrainBead)

Whch is kind of ridiculous <.<;;;;

random vote: Tony Moonshine

Because I'm impatient.

Vote: Drain Bead

For starting a wagon on an easy target.

For the record, that was page 1, the first two posts of the game. Does anyone else see that? = |

Vitr did call John out very early day 1.... planned perhaps? I am unsure.

Tony Moonshine took note of it twice, and did not vote or FoS.

Random vote: Drain Bead

I think John was just making sure that he understood the basic concept of the game. I agree that it makes him slightly more suspicious than everyone else, but it doesn't warrant a bandwagon quite yet.

Something to take note of.

I am also unsure if I should be concerned about Blahgo's vote. Distancing? Bussing? (post 44)

would just like to confirm that John is blind

This is my first nightless game.

Is a quicklynch a little less suspicious in a game where there are no night kills?

I'd imagine so, if only because we're not guaranteed to start out down two if we misfire on Day 1.

unvote

Not going so far as to vote John yet until I get an answer to my semi-noob question.

What question? You have 4 posts, none have a question.

I definetly don't like blahgo's vote on John, it says "newb scum" to me. As I said before, I don't really like lynching John at all, at least not due to that comment. I'll unvote, vote:blahgo simply because it's a better vote than my random one.

More about leaving John alone. Not saying too much, actually, as we were all suspicous of Blahgo, but once again, something to note of.
Post 64 is a good post IMO (Vitr talking about Quicklynches)
CRASH

summary for BM: NAR votehopped, then when i brought it up he accused me of just copying what other people said. i actually was the first to accuse him of votehopping. he subsequently voted me for following other peoples opinions (which i didnt). Thats pretty much the whole summary. And there was much votehopping, but in particular there was the time he voted, unvoted, then voted vitamin in 3 consecutive posts.

I would say this was pretty accurate, but thats from my horrible memory....

Implications are hard to acertain with text, NAR. try cold hard evidence.

Unvote, FoS: NARJust cause i think i had a vote on him, but i forgot so this is just in case. this new server thing is almost like a fresh start to me.

Strange much?

FoS:Mustafa

I think we should give NaR's replacement a clean slate, I think NaR might have just been messing with us.

I would very much like to know Skruffs/Mustafa's alignment at ths point, because I believe they would be very telling, considering Mustafa's kind of veiled defense against John, if Mustafa is scum, then that would just be to much coincedence for my liking.

Occults post 62 is probably the scummiest so far in the game. It sounds like genuine consolation to his scumbuddy John. I cant really see any other reason why he would be sympathetic to someone who is easy to catch as scum. Those are the BEST type of people imo.

This should have tipped me off I was wrong.

I mean this is irrelevant <.<;
(Just kidding)

I had just unvoted in an earlyer post.

Just to make everything clear, i think we should have wipe the slate clean, have no votes then move from there, i think some votes got lost.

Once again.....

For the record I don't believe this is a factor against Skruffs/John, as NAR was completely like that, but I don't believe that was the thing they were getting at. They were just wanting his replacement cleared.

Post 119 is important

Battle Mage's post #112 comes off as very scummy to me. He manages to accuse and defend just about everyone in that post. It is a typical "scum covering their bases" type of post.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Battle Mage

The scum pairing of John and Occult because of that post 62 is a little ridiculous in my opinion. And to call it the "scummiest" post thus far is quite a stretch. It is also a very safe post to criticize because it really has little to do with the game itself. Also, that early in the game, I severely doubt that scum would buddy up like that.

Err, was it not just a typical reread? Way to Wifom your way out of this world.

142 from him makes little sense to me as well, and just looks like a way to press a lame attack on Battle Mage.

IH pushed that there can be four mislynches available and that there is no problem in wagoning (basically). Wow, four scum in a mini game? That's 33% scum. Seems high, even with no night-kills. For a correct, non-bussing day one lynch, every townie except one would have to be on the wagon. Alternatively, if we mislynch, scum would only need two townies to get a mislynch tomorrow, and then, bussing the townies, can win. So, yeah, wow. Very misleading, IH.

1.Wow, look, one of Guardians major points, he didn't even come up with himself. Post 153 for those who are interested.

2.That post was generally meant to keep this game from stalling. You have people in the mindset that we shouldn't vote, etc things like that, especially in a nightless game, the game is going to freeze.

IH preemptively votes VitR saying that VitR is definitely scum.
VitR then votes John saying that John was asking about scum powers and is probably scum.
Tony agrees but doesn't vote.
IH relaxes and votes for John as well, which strikes me as something. Voting someone who seems to know who scum is, and then going along with them because it's not you, seems like defensive scum playing. He concedes that he had *also* noticed, and then prods Tony, asking why he agreed but didn't vote.

Skruffs also leaves out that My vote on VitR was a random vote, while my vote on John was not. Silly Skruffs!

I'm not doing a summary of the game, for that is useless. There is no such thing as an unbiased summary, and if there was such a thing, why would you even bother posting it. I guess I did have some stuff destroyed, but I really don't care.

Untrue. It gives an insight to YOUR views, and is especially useful if you have been lurking.

or me. X_X

Post 189

VitR, what do you think of Elias?

As for IH jumping on the John thing: yeah, that was suspicious, but I don't see how IH following my vote equals a connection between us. You could argue for a connection between the first and second voter of any wagon based on that.

noted

It should also be interesting that Occult accused me of jumping on John too quick, and Guardian accused me of not jumping on John at all.

IH-you were already voting for Occult.
oh and also Unvote, Vote: Occult
ur at lynch-2 so i think its time for a claim.
BM

Lawl oh lawl

It is also REALLY interesting that BM put occult at minus two just for a claim, and then when he acknoweldges his mistake in 209, he leaves his vote on.

FoS

My case on occult in post 219

IH's post looks very bad for Occult and John. John's FOS on IH makes John look even worse.

I don't like Battle Mage acting like his vote on me was completely innocent and not OMGUS.

I am sorry for my absence from the game, though, I was not lurking, since I wasn't reading and deciding not to post, I just couldn't even read. Real life is kicking my tail, but this shouldn't be a problem again.

Is Occult at -1?

FOS:ROMANUS

Anyone else find that above post strange at all?

The statement in question was that you looked like scumbuddies, not that you actually are. Personally, I feel that statement is correct, you do look like scumbuddies. That is to say, I think if one of you is scum, the other is likely to be. As for the matter of whether you ARE scumbuddies, we wont know that until this game plays out.

Noted earlier stance

BEGINNING OF PAGE 11

Or else a dumbass...

Just a point that I think might be important, I was recently playing in a vengeance game with VitaminR, in which I was the godfather and he was the goon. When it looked like the person I replaced might get lynched, causing the mafia to lose, VitaminR started pushing for my lynch overly hard, causing the town to lynch him, and the mafia to win. His actions in that game remind me of his actions in this game a lot, it might be worth checking out. The game was here.

Noted. I wish mustafa was still here so i could ask him about this.

I don't understand how this would be valid though, because there is no godfather, so this is clearly not going to happen, and I doubt that VitR was bussing like you suggest in this post.....

I am currently leaning towards the feeling that Occult is town. However, I do not feel strongly enough about it to actually defend him or anything. I see all the points people have made, etc, etc, etc, and I can't deny that do have a good foundation. I do not believe it adds up to Occult being scum.

As my vote reflects, I am most suspicious of Battle Mage, and continue to be.

Just to make sure my stances are clear at this point.

I don't like this post. = | It just feels scummy. "I think he's town, but I don't know why, because there's a good case against him"

Skruffs, I could have very well used the word "definitely." I'm fairly confident mustafa is town and I often use overblown rhetoric.

mustafa, I don't think the two situations are comparable.

1) My adamance in that game was put on. It was a show.
2) I always push for lynches like this. When I say "We need two more votes, people", it is just an indication that I believe in this lynch. I feel enough time has passed this Day 1 and we could do with some information.

Why do/did you think Mustafa is/was town?

I take it back, I like Skruffs.

Which actually makes me believe him to be more scummy. Go figure.

Don't worry Skruffs, that is not an FOS or anything.

Wtf?!1

In fact, i dont have a particular playstyle as town/scum. my aggression is generally based on 1 of the following:
1. knowing the identity of a scumbag, and trying to convince the rest of the town.
2. trying to avoid getting killed myself.
3. really enjoying a game, and wanting to win.

Correction, ASSUMING the identity of a scumbag. See Open 14

Mustafa has said just enough to kinda float through.

16 posts
1. /in
2. Random Vote
3.Jumps on Blahgo (little explaination)
4.A joke.
5.Responds to VitR's accusation of being Non-commital.
6.Question if BM had read anything.
7.Says NAR was messing around.
8.Comment on NAR not being serious
9.Says blahgo only got to -3
10. Says he had this insane post ready but firefox froze. Then Agrees with everyone else and Votes me
11.A post about the set up of the game
12. Gives a vague reason for voting me "I also think he's scum
13. Says it was obvious why he voted for me (No further explanation)
14. Calls Tony a dimbass and brings up another game
15.Stated he noticed a simularity between two games with VitR
16.Comment on the mod adding to romanus's post

Overall, there isn't much with mustafa's posts. He uses recycled accusations and gives little reason for his actions and I find him pretty scummy up to this point.

VitR mentioned in a post that he was sure that mustafa was town. Why do you think that?

Please everyone note this post.

If I can remember it I will go back through the rest of Mustafa's posts and see if the rest generally match up.

Okay, first, i want to FoS: VitaminR because in another game i was with him, he was scum, and very good scum at that. this seems like a subtle attempt to start a bandwagon.

Protown points for VitR I believe.... I'm unsure if John would bus, he would be this subtle.....

I will not denounce anyone for stating their opinions on people's play compared to other games, but it will be of no consequence to me and will be ignored.

I disagree. John is a new player and new players will make mistakes. His role this game might be opposite of last game and he's trying a different style of play. To suggest players not consider this is a joke. Would I vote for him just because of this? No, but with the pregame question it's not looking good for him.

I would not consider this as evidence if John were a more established player.

I don't like this, it's too uncomittal. It's a subtle defense, but then again not.
"it's not looking good, but I wouldn't vote him"

I'm not saying I won't vote for him, but I wouldn't just vote anyone because of something that happened in another game. There is a case being built against him including his pregame question and what VitR said.

Skruffs then asked him to point us elsewhere, and Tony came up with this.

Like I said I just don't like it. It looks like he's trying to defend John, but come out looking alright like he doesn't care....

FoS

[uote="Mustafa"]Looking at your arguments, I can see why John is being voted on, but I really believe that Occult is the better play for today.

[/quote]
Bleeeeeeeeh

It sounds like he is dangerous town or scum.

unvote

vote John

This and his pregame question are my reasons.

I knew I had a reason for going against tony day 2, but I forgot them and and went with the last thing I was thinking about. >.<; I even stated this in post 361

Mmk, this guy is opportunistic scum.

Occult today, Tony tomorrow.

I believe I had posted that after he had subtly defended John, and then just turned around and jumped on him.

Right now, I'm thinking that unless something else comes up, my lynch priority would be

1. Occult
2. Tony

For reasons stated many times over.

I didn't even realize Mustafa was following me at the time.

FoS

you've REALLY lost me now. My argument for voting Occult, was mainly that i felt him and John were scumbuddies. the fact that Occult WASNT scum, implies that the original voting logic was flawed, and thus John probably isnt scum-UNLESS he is much cleverer than he looks, and has succeeded in attaching himself to a townie, which i find unlikely.

XDXDXDXD

You could do more to find scum or information, but won't. This is the same thing you did day 1 with Occult.

vote IH

I still do not like anything about this post. Srsly? I didn't do anything to find any information? I didn't make a case at all?

= |

IH followed Vitr, it seems, and also has really bad logic that Oh, we have 4 misses, its OK. Yeah we do have 4 misses, but with each miss it becomes more and more likely for scum to be able to steer the wagon. We need to get a few lynches right, not get them wrong and go, oh well.

I am still unsure how this was bad logic. We have 4 misses. It was a fact. That meant we had four days to lynch scum. Not only that, you say it's easier for scum to steer the wagon, but you don't think any attention is brought on them at all? They aren't going to be able to just randomly speedlynch. I'm pretty sure you're overstating things.

You shouldn't worry about a townies lynch anyway, as long as there was a case against them, a good one. Clearly you didn't seem to recognize that fact and just thought that a townie couldn't be mistaken and that it could only be scum.

The point is that Town is at an advantage in this setup if they lynch right earlier. Look at open 6. We won that game because we nailed scum early, and then had a lot of margin for error.

IH, I disagree that tony is a good lynch. I am not nearly suspicious of him as I am of other players. I think the town made a mistake in not lynching John yesterday, and that he is a good play for today. I don't see your tony argument, and I think that while Tony isn't articulating his argument against you well there is one there. I think you are just trying to quiet a dissenter. I don't have a strong feeling about Ton'y allignment, though, so maybe this is just more distancing.

Looking over Tony's posts now from day 1, you don't think that some of his arguments were untrue, and that the main part of his attacks on me on day 2 were mostly OMGUS?

IH and Skruffs also have comitted craplogic,

IH with the no worries attitude

and Skruffs saying nar replacing out shows he is town. Yes it shows he cares about the game, but I take that to mean he cared about his scum partners. Skruff's cavalier attitude and thought that he will replace nar and live and that this is a good thing strikes me the wrong way.

How is a now worries attitude scummy?

Hmm... I gtg in 2 minutes but I have you guys linked near the beginning of the game.

Skruffs and your badlogic is there, but I don't have time to go quote it.

Again, his is right after he replaced where he said nar asking for a replacement was pro town.
Yours was after the lynch where you were like, oh I shan't cry... In fact I think Skruffs may have pointed out your bad logic?

<3 Guardian

After I brought up some flaws this was what I got.

This is extremely misleading. With four scum alive atm, only two townies need to slip up and hop on an all scum wagon for a mislynch to occur. If we mislynch, the same thing happens tomorrow. We need to be careful about every lynch, because with over 33% of the population, scum can influfence lynches easily!! Then later, IH goes on to say how we shouldn't stress that we lynched a townie, where by his own reasoning we only have three lives yet. Very scummy imo, and trying to get townies to be alltogether too lose with their votes.

Fool, and you think townies are going to quicklynch?!? Obviously there are going to be four more townies, well five after this would happen, that would clearly recognize a quicklynch. You were overblowing this point. Alot.

If we are not careful with our votes, scum will be able to steer the lynches and win. Did they win nightless one?

I call bullcrap about scum steering votes.

Stressing makes you be more careful with votes in the future.... Not stressing makes it seem OK for there to be another mislynch.... and then you can be all, "oh, well don't stress, let's just try again"....


Yes I could, but I'm not sure doing so would help the town, it would only help you ammend your behavior. Town players can see the errors for themselves.

Also, I lack the time required (as of this moment) to do what you request, even if I wanted to. There are flaws, and you and Vitr are definitely linked though, from near the beginning of the game onward.

I disagree about the stressing. More pressure means you're more prone to make mistakes.

Secondly, if you think Tony is town, then why

wouldn't

you point flaws out in his case? Of course it would help the town.

Major FoS:Guardian

Lack the time Count:2

IH, your basis for attacking Tony is that he had bad reasons for defending Occult, and that if Occult was scum then surely Tony would be too... Well great, but Occult was town. I am assuming that Tony's reasoning was faulty because he is newer, not because he is scum...

Defending town players IS NOT a scum tell. It isn't a "town tell", I am still unsure about Tony, but it is DEFINITELY NOT a scum tell. Pursuing Tony because of this is just more bad logic. I understand looking at him with suspicion yesterday, but today? Come on.

Untrue, though I wasn't paying attention and just went with it. = \ this is what happens when I just take someones word for truth.

MAJOR FOS:GUARDIAN

My basis for voting Tony was for subtly defending John, and then jumping on him opportunistically (AKA without someone making to much of a deal out of it)

Also I was an idiot for not double checking that this was my actual basis :embarrased:

Also, I note your unwillingness to vote for John. If he turns up scum (which I think he will, but I'm not as sure on him as I am on you) all the arrows will point to IH scum.

Note:Guardian's vote was on me at the time

Occult was an easy target. He was almost asking to be lynched. Now you see me as an easy target and are moving foward with your agenda.

After a case was layed out against him was that attitude taken.

IH, your post seems to suggest you saw that Occult was an easy target day one - but you still pushed hard for him, even as you say, laying out a case against him. If you were perceptive enough to notice he was an easy target - why did you still push for him? To the point of saying that People voting tony for defending occult were moronic?

He became an easy target because he was scummy, and kind of gave up. He did not start out as one, as John did.

Also at the time I did say that. Voting for tony for defending against someone on the day is kind of stupid, but it is indeed loaded (and I was being a moron caught up in the moment), but it made all the difference when the thing I have already pointed out happened.

= \

GUardian - I'm curious why you think NAR was scum... presumably it's based on the same reasons Elias thinks so - but Elias actually saw what NAR said and is upset because of that. You haven't seen any of the aggravational stuff that NAR directly said - just other people's opinons nad recollections on it. So for you to agree that I am scum because of an argument that you haven't even - and can't - read, that's wrong.
ANd to answer your question, I rather think that IH will probbaly turn up scum if Yogurt man does. A fe other people - namely the minus 2 and minus 1 votes on occult - would also b ehigh on my list.

Please note this

Guardian was pressing Skruffs for something Nar did after not seeing it himself.

This is exactly why I want an IH lynch over the YB lynch, because I am more sure that IH is scum than I am that YB is scum. If YB is lynched and shows up as scum, then great, but if YB is lynched and shows up town, then I will be in a dificult position because I see IH and YB as linked, but I am more confident of IH being scum. I could envision IH scum and YB town... It is harder for me to envision YB scum and IH town. I am not sure that I articulated this well, but this is why I want to see IH swing first.

When the man came in I believe his main suspect was john, and even accused others for lynching someone else, and how we should have lynched John instead of Occult.

I am like 80% sure YB is scum though... IH still would have been a better lynch for today, I'm like 90% sure on him.

Howso? Those sound like bull statistics! I demand real ones!

I will try to make a longer post via IH, answering some of his questions and outlining the case against him... as apparently I have some convincing to do.

Will do it count:3

will make the case against IH in a few days, or less, maybe. I am really active in my other games right now, I have loads of real life stuff to attend to after getting back from Spain, and I don't have the effort/time to put into the IH case at the moment.

One thing I can do right now is an impromptu top to bottom scumlist, top being scum.

John
<gap>
IH
<big gap>
Skruffs
<gap>
Vitr
mustafa
HautBoy
Tony
Aimee
<gap>
Romanus
Elias
<huge gap>
Occult

Ok.

1.Later count:4

2.Scumlist. John at the top. IH number two. So once again, IH should be lynched=does not compute.

I really dislike this post. At this point there is momentum building against her and she doens't take time before she leaves to address the issues.

I really dislike someone attacking someone else for saying they're going on vacation. = |

FoS:Tony

Post 574:Put off count 5
Post 578:Put off count 6
Post 581:Put off count 7

Post 583 is protown by Elias. Some questions asked about Guardian from someone else other than me.

Post 589 Says it's halfway done

Post 560:Put off count 8

Ok, I finished finals, and did a quick reread/skim. I'm seriously disliking Aimee, for being really really really non-commitial. It feels like she doesn't want to offend anybody, and that her sole goal of this game is to not get killed. I know that she isn't here, but she should be back soon, and I am confident enough to put on out a vote:Aimee.

....I'm unsure about this post. I feel I should quote it though.

thought we had a group of four likely town like players who all trusted each other's townness, minus me trusting Vitr. If I were willing to let slide for a moment that I don't trust Vitr, and I was right about my impression of having four town like players who thought the other three were town like, then we would have an interesting alternate strategy/side strategy for winning.

SCUM SCUM SCUM

= |

Pooky can make this suggestion.

When you make it, it seeems dirty.

Also the analysis just looks like you're looking for people who think each other are protown to trust each other, not the town's general consent on who is protown.

Major:FoS

Post 600 is the post about me and Vit R

Posts 602-604 responded to it, I don't feel like responding to it again, as I felt I did a good enough job then.

I find post 605 from Tony to be town. Conflicting....

IH... I don't have the effort or motivation to address your post fully at this time. I still feel that you are scum, and are fighting this like anything... Your "true logic" was used to lynch a townie day one, it can't have been that true...

To bad townies aren't always looking townie......

I am not saying the connection means they are scum. I am saying it means they are connected. I also think they are all scum, will eventually do a case on IH, etc. I think them all acting scummy, and being connected, make them scum.

..............

There is a contradiction in there somewhere

I think..... that I think Romanus is town at the moment. I don't like how he's kind of been subtly playing, but just some of his things he said about Guardian and his post were the exact copy of my thoughts that I just wouldn't actually say.

It's like with Jathan the other night in scumchat. He said something which made me extrememly uneasy. He claimed he was the most confirmed town player when no one had expressed such sentiment which immediately raised my hackles, but things he said were the exact same as the thoughts on my mind.

So I have to decide about Romanus. He seems to take two positions, to kind of subtly comment and control the lynch process, and take an initiative against a player, and let it stew for a while before bringing it back up (See AIMEE, GUARDIAN)

But the post about Guardian feeling in control of the town, making a post he felt would easily convince the town, but was actually half assed revealed how he was actually taking this game.

I notice one or two people seemed to be faulting Aimee for wanting the deadline revoked, but Guardian and I also asked for this.... I know VitR did it, and I think that Romanus was accusing her of it too.

Aimee, I still think you are a horrible lynch for today. But if I am reading this game wrong, and you get lynched, and you turn up scum, it is bad for town for me to be so connected with you. So, at this point I doubt I will vote for you today, but you are here and can defend yourself; getting you to post more content is good and me being linked to you is bad, so you defending yourself is win-win.

.......

FoS:Guardian

for that bit about looking bad if Aimee comes up scum. Pretty much he's just calling her to defend herself, but the reasoning he gives.... I don't like it.

It's probably Null since Aimee came up town, but it make me unseasy.

Post 638 is the case against me from Guardian.

I find post 639 by romanus responding to it to be protown.

Post 652 was my resoinse.

I'm extremely unsure about Elias, as of page 27.

Tony accuses Elias and Guardian of defending Aimee in post 675

Elias refutes that, saying that Aimee already defended herself, and that it's a crapcase. Further more Tony is only attacking the people defending Aimee, while ignoring Aimee's defense on the whole.

FoS:Tony

Vitr uses the "You bought scum time by asking for a deadline extension" which I think was faulty. By alot.

FoS

Post 693 I think Elias is more town.....

SCUMLIST SO FAR-
Mustafa
Tony
Guardian

Other Possible Scum-
VitR


To be honest I'm unsure about a Tony/Guardian scumbuddies. Since Guardian took the actively defense against aimee and Tony took the active attack. The only thing that would explain this as scumbuddies is that they would have no chance to talk.

Mod:Do scum get to talk periodically or at all?

If scum would only get to talk pregame, then Tony and Guardian would not have been to talk period, because Guardian replaced in.

vote: Mustafa

I re-read all his posts. Very interesting. Basically, he has coasted through the entire game. He gave no reasons for his votes on Occult and YB, and latched onto the bandwagon against me for pretty weak reasons (being non-committal), and has recently said everyone is suspicious, without giving any reasons.

That is non-committal. You basically haven't given any thoughts for most of the game.

I agree with this, and was what tipped me off to Mustafa in the first place.


Post 704 was an STD post. That role is also possible of being scum since those replacements were kind of ridiculous and we had almost NO posts from them.

The end of page 29 annoys me to no extent. = |

Not to much to comment on on page 30 I think. A few things about the differences of who VitR wants to lynch, and how Guardian wants to get to the end.

Post 771 is noteable by Tony. Not scummy, but noteable.

I now find Guardian to be more scummy than Aimee.

unvote: Aimee

Post 595 is a joke and obvious attempt to split everyone. Now he wants to lynch 2 of the 4 he wanted to team with earlier. Not very consistent. His earlier defense of Aimee along with post 595 seems like scum trying to be overly protown.

Now that I have spent some time reviewing Aimee's and Guardian's posts I'm willing to admit I might be wrong.

- Her voting record. Voted Occult and he was town, but from his own words he made mistakes. Since it was day 1, I'm willing to write this one off. Said she would hammer John day 2 and didn't. I still find this scummy.

- I really didn't like her lack of posting earlier in the game, but now she seems to have stepped it up.

- Elias and Guardian defending her. I already said Guardia seems to be working too hard to appear town by defending Aimee. Espiacally when he dropped the line: You are back now, defend yourself. I'm not sure about Elias and his motives for defending Aimee. Maybe he just wants to be on record with his stance?

I think Guardian makes a better lynch for today.

I must say though, he says Guardian is a better lynch, unvotes Aimee, but leaves his vote off.

FoS

Nevermind he does it in post 773 by an EBWOP

Unfos

Tony - wtf "he will still be able to respond" You ptosed on July 1. I am at the beach enjoying my vacation, and had left before you posted that. I'm at a cybercafe with limited time so no detailed analysis of anything, but yeah I really don't like "oh, but he can defend himself, it's OK."

Skruffs - I stopped pushing the alliance thing a long time ago, and a page or so back Aimee explained clearly to me, for the first time in the thread, why it was a bad plan, and I stopped supporting it at all altogether. If you'd read (and I'd appreciate that) I've been pushing for people to explain why the alliance thing was a bad idea. Aimee finally did.

There are very few reasons to lynch Aimee. The wagon is bs.

IH and Skruffs, OTOH, are very likely scum. Please lynch them.

Later.

I want to know why you found Skruffs scummy? You posted you're case and such against me, but I didn't see anything on Skruffs.

Why did you think Skruffs was scummy. Especially if you still do.

my posts on page 32 are indicative of how much I had actually read this game.

I think I found Romanus's posts scummy because I just kind of... seemed to glaze over when I read them, so I thought it was scummy. = \

You've played the last two days off as the Uber Town Wagoner - and it's nto working. Now you are warning us to be more careful.
Why?

When did I warn the town to be careful? I was just unsure of our stance on the game.

Skruffs brings up a good point in 823 about Guardian voting someone other than Romanus, though he didn't want Aimee to be lynched, especially since he had expressed suspicions against him.

Romanus -- this "why isn't Guardian dead yet?" is just propoganda, and isn't helping us if you're town. You, or anyone else, have completely failed to address my case on IH today, and you in particular are making a mistake, I remember you linking me to Aimee and Elias, and saying we were the likely three scum pair. Guess what, Aimee was town. I'm town too.

If only you wouldn't have done the

same exact thing against me

Also how have you had a different case against me? Is the case on me supposed to be addressed each day? I'm confused.

Yup.. A lot of people are getting suspicious of mustafa. He is not anywhere near the top of my scumlist right now, but I am going to re-read with him in mind, any lynch is better than me

Another survive attitude.

Major FoS:Guardian

Firstly, in this game, it is in every townie's interest not to die. More dead townies means less townies alive to lynch the three scum that remain.
Secondly, I don't think this is true. I've been trying very hard to get IH lynched all game. No one seems to be listening, but saying that all I am trying to do is stay alive is completely untrue. That is much more true of the lurkers, who aren't trying to find scum but are managing to deflect attention from themselves.

Wrong. It is every townies interest to lynch scum. Not to survive.

Defending yourself is important. Lynching scum is more important. Especially because if you are town and are lynched you leave nothing useful when dead. I dislike this cowardly attitude. = |

At least in my focus on IH, I have consistently provided a case against him. You on the other hand, have not brought up the case again when I have repeatedly asked you to, and I think you are scum along with Skruffs and IH. If you are town in this game, your play the past few days has been incredibly piss poor.

1.Untrue
2.Repeating something doesn't make it true.

THOK REPLACED IN YAY!

I think Thok is protown.

Hm. I know what you mean -- but look at it from my perspective. As of right now you are saying that two of my three current and all three of my initial scum candidates are likely town -- I wonder about your intentions, as you are protecting almost all the people I find to be scummy.

Perhaps you're just..... wrong?


In post 887 Thok extends his points on Romanus.
Your first point I would consider valid.
Your second point I'm less sure of, as coupled with Guardian's other posts, I would consider scummy. Mostly the survivor mentality, and that, unlike a similar plan Pooky came up with last nightless game, it was

Players trusting each other

not town deciding who were the most protown players.
Your third point I would consider valid also.
Thok's points have me reconsidering Romanus more.

1)I don't typically -- or ever before this IIRC -- find people suspicious because they disagree with my reads. However, the completeness in which you disagree with my read makes me wonder if you are trying to defend those that I find suspicous.

Err, but once again you just don't seem to cope with the fact you could be wrong. This stubborness is going to be your downfall as a town player.
In case you didn't pick up on that, I am becoming less sure about Guardian, as I could see town AND scum making the above post.
ANYWAYS, you seem to just be suspicious that he disagrees, and not that he has good reasons for not believing you....

Yeah.
Vote : IH
Mustafa is good too, though.


John- VitaminR, IH, (Guardian) / (Guardian)- Occult
John- (Guardian) / (Guardian)- Occult, mustafa15 / Occult- IH
Occult- IH, (Guardian)
Occult- IH, (Guardian), VitaminR
Occult- IH, (Guardian), VitaminR, Skruffs
Occult- IH, VitaminR, Skruffs
Occult- IH, VitaminR, Skruffs, mustafa15, (Guardian)
Occult- IH, VitaminR, mustafa15, (Guardian)
Occult- IH, VitaminR, mustafa15, (Guardian)
Occult- IH, mustafa15, (Guardian)
Occult- IH, mustafa15, (Guardian), Romanus
Occult- IH, mustafa15, (Guardian), Romanus, Aimee, MissMoo, VitaminR / John- Skruffs, TonyMoonshine

Just a tally of votes (per simenon's vote counts) on who was on Occult (decoy), John, and blahgo/guardian (wagoner on scum)

Blue is town, Red is scum, darkred and green are my suggestions as to everyone else's alignments. I forget who MissMoo is. mebbe thok.

Now, do you think I actually found occult scummy, or I was just looking for something to distract away from the John lynch.
= |
I'm unsure about the Anti Thok sentiment. Romanus clearly doesn't like him attacking, and doesn't see any need to address any points, but just says "He's got his eye on him for coming in aggressively".
Skruffs came up with a kind of... stupid reason (Especially since that role was under NO pressure, they just continue to get replaced)

In 29 either VitaminR is either both extremely perceptive and lucky, or starts busing very early. I still don't see how Thok isn't setting a double standard by saying Romanus's prolonged attack on me is busing but this attack by VitaminR couldn't have been. VitaminR finds scum in his first serious post. That's amazingly good pro-town play, or busing.

Seriously? = |

This still seems like the scummiest post in the game to me. IH gets all buddy buddy with VitR, and initiates a very easy bus.

I don't understand why you think that, since I was being very wagon-ee.
Also this is a mite wifom, but I need to know why you think Scum would bus in such a situation? You don't think that this early in the game they wouldn't try to brush it off as just a townie being curious?
Not to mention that I did call Tony on not voting John, but saying it looked good?

After preaching about how we have 5 lives to give and we can be free with our votes, IH lectures blagho (me) about how quicklynches are scummy. I find that hypocritical and scummy.

FoS

Once again Bandwagons and Speedlynches are not the same thing. Being free with votes, and a player being prematurely lynched is NOT the same thing.

Gah. The crash really, really sucks. I vaguely remember NAR being scummy, but have nothing to re-read. After three pages, I find mustafa scum, Tony scum, and IH scum. pre-Thok looks bad too. VitR could also be scum. I think I was overdoing the case on Skruffs -- but I can't re-read NAR and I can't remember it that well, so I can't be sure.

I'm not sure I actually believe that you read the game at this time, not close enough to draw conclusions on it.
I also like the Thok unsubstantiation.

I hated Skruff's 125. I don't think poemscum is a word, but it applies here. He is much too concerned with surviving.

Which has been your whole attitude this game

Major:Fos

In 139, Romanus starts his crusade on my role, that lasts all game. It rivals my single-mindedness on IH, except I don’t see good reasoning behind it.

I would disagree with the single mindedness on me, and that you don't really have to much good reasoning behind me....

I see that alot of Guardian's suspicions about Romanus seems to be Omgus....

IH, if you don't want to be lynched, explain why mufasa or tony is better.

I refuse to just deflect suspicion onto someone.
Welcome MoS!

I also think you're overestimating the amount to which scum were pushing the Occult wagon. There exist (relatively frequently IMHO) wagons where a townie starts playing scummily, and it's town that starts wagonning him and scum that tries to avoid the wagon (for the most part). My feeling that the Occult wagon is one of these wagons (the fact that Occult was lynched for his association to an actual scum is a decent sign of this). That's part of where my anti Tony Moonshine feeling comes from-he was against the Occult wagon for poor reasons: it feels like he was trying to gain protown points for being off of what he knew would be a bad lynch.

Thok. I <3 you for having a brain.
Welcome Oman.

Which brings me to Guardian: This guy is either good scum, bad scum, or strange town. (I know thok, wishy-washy, but I really don't have read). He's going after IH almost exclusivly, which is not an easy task and has put him under a fair bit of fire, but he keeps going for it. The three situations as I see it: Good scum - he sees a pro-town player he can get lynched and works him for a while, seemingly a really vindictive pro-town player that can WIFOM his way out of it; Bad scum - Scum that just isn't taking easy street as one should. Working the hard way, calling attention to himself..the list is long; strange town - A townie that really does pick IH for town but is stubborn.

I'm unsure what you mean. Going after me has succesfully left Guardian with a place to keep his votes on deadline while succesfully not putting his vote on the lynched player.
This happened with John.
This happened with Aimee.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it just looks like a good way to distract from things, while pushing other players.
I don't like how Oman can't find

anything

after claiming to have reread.
Oman does nothing to improve my opinion of that role.....



REQUESTS-
I want a case laid out by Guardian on Skruffs, as he has been suspicious of him the whole game, or so he claims.

I want a Guardian case laid out by Tony.

I want Tony to also give us a list of his suspicions.

I want Oman to post a case on Guardian as well.

I want a Romanus/OMan case posted by Guardian.

I want a case on me reposted by Guardian if he has come up with anything different.



Mainly I want

Guardian to post my case on Occult all the way back from day one, and point out flaws in it, as that seems to be his main point that I distracted away from John with a bad case

OPTIONAL REQUEST-
Guardian, if you're town, go over you're posts and look how you haven't considered anything thats not related to your pet theories.

That should suffice for my requests. It mainly deals with how some players have repeated things, and I want to see if they are just repeating their suspicions or actually know why they're voting.

kthx

I am also withholding my vote until this post has had time to sink in and be examined, as MoS is at lynch -1, and I want some opinions from him and everyone else.

unvote

just in case.

[IH]

Final List

Scum

-
MoS
Guardian

Neutral Scum

Oman
VitR

Neutral

Elias
Tony

Town

Thok
Skruffs

[IH]

Yes, I'm unsure of you being town or scum Elias. You've said some things I like, and you've said some things I'm unsure of.....

Tony I considered to put in the scummy neutral, but some of his psots, while off a bit, seem..... better today.

After my requests are filled (I should say if) I think I'll have a more complete view.

[IH]

IH has some good points, but some of his attacks on me are just deliberately ignoring some of my contributions selecting things that make me look scummy. hopefully I'll get to respond to them all when I get back.

three great examples of how IH is purposefully putting my actions in a negative light: 1) I am now very much in favor of a MoS lynch, something I hadn't considered as a good idea until today -- this has nothing to do with my "pet suspicions".

First of all, that was clearly not a pat on the back post. It was a post to find scum. If there was something that I found would make them less scum then I would put it up. If there was something I thought of importance, I put it in. I'm sorry you think I'm 'only putting in the negative' but it was a reread to find scum.

Second, Yes, just like the other days you stayed on me while saying you were pro other lynches.

2) I freaking admitted that Romanus's role didn't look scummy day one, and I was considering that maybe my vision was clouded by OMGUS -- that role constantly attacking me (and Oman seems to not want to let up) is really annoying and wrong, but maybe the role hasn't been scummy. I am going to finish the re-read and determine this.

Yes, but I still hear how you want him lynched. Which is why I want a case.

On YB being lynched, I preferred lynching you IH so I stayed there -- it isn't like I changed anything by doing so, and I made it clear John was my #2 suspect. On the Aimee lynch, all I could have done is put Romanus at a tie, and I didn't feel good enough about Aimee being town//Romanus being scum to move off of the 1 vote IH wagon onto the 2 vote Romanus wagon. I initially figured why should I change, people should be moving to IH not me moving to Romanus -- and then I had to leave my relatives' house before I had a chance to decide definitively. Even so, I am not disappointed with the decision.

Well, first of all, you came into the game saying you John was your top suspect. You accused others of not being on his wagon. You then switched to me, while accusing others of distracting away from John, but saying I was a better lynch, going after me.

Therefore, you were essentially distracting away from John by going after me, even though you were still attacking others for staying off of him.

Not only that, didn't you say you thought Aimee was more town? So why wouldn't you vote for the scummier player, instead of just apathetically having a lynch happen?

Also IH, you weren't voting... so why unvote?

To make sure I was unvoting, since I would very much like a serious MoS post.

I'm still unsure and wary of the meta on VitR. I'll look at Calvin and Hobbes as that is more likely to actually be relevant, but that vengeful game is not relevant at all.

[IH]

MoS. Give us a quick list of your suspicions.

[IH]

There is a huge difference between finding scummy things, and completely ignoring where I change or retract arguments. You are doing the latter, and it is annoying, and scummy as hell.

Show me where you have retracted an argument XD

Holy cow it didn't take you long to do exactly what I said you would. IH, it almost seems like you want me to hammer MoS -- I have been supporting lynching him for pages now, but I don't want to lynch him without him having a chance to respond. And somehow, some way, you are finding me scummy for this. Seriously, you are scum.

So MoS has been at lynch -1 all day, has he, I believe he just reached lynch -1

What on earth!? I want you lynched. If not you, MoS is seeming like an OK second option. How in hell can you possibly read me as currently wanting Romanus lynched. If I have ever used the term correctly, you are straw man-ing me there.

.....I will review your posts through the filter once more.

You make no sense there, at least you aren't disagreeing with what I claimed. I thought and still think you two were very tied, and I initially thought him going first was the way to go, but shortly and for the rest of the game I thought and think you should be out the door.

So why did you attack others for staying off of John afterwards?

Why should I vote Romanus, who until just recently then I had thought was pro-town, instead of you, who I am almost sure is scum? Why can't I expect other townies to vote you and not lynch Aimee who was very, very townlike? Why do I have to be the one to go against my suspicions and lynch someone who I am not sure about? That's retarded.

No, there were only two lynch choices. Nobody was moving to me.

Why did you stay on me, instead of moving to Guardian, who you thought was scummier than Aimee

DEADLINE LYNCH.

First, how do you not know if you are voting? Secondly, did you think you were voting MoS? Thirdly, even if you aren't sure if you are voting, couldn't you have freaking read the vote count at the top of the page!?


Guys, let's lynch IH, OK? Read the above post and consider just how much he is ignoring my changes in opinion, twisting my words, and doing anything to deflect attention from himself and make me look scummy.

Because sometimes in my rereads I vote, and switch my vote around. As my reread took more than one sitdown, I unvoted, just in case I had. Don't be stupid, before this post I knew I hadn't voted because I knew I hadn't voted yet.

But why does this matter? How is this a factor towards anything?

How am I deflecting attention away from myself? I have made requests of you. If anything I have asked for more information

against

me.


Skruffs, you amuse me btw.

[IH]

I believe that MoS said he would have limited access until Monday. Apparently these spurts have happened before, as we had a conversation about Night deadlines needing to be longer than 3 days, because of his inability to post or check in, he missed a day/night phase.

In other words, I'm not bothered until after tomorrow if I don't see an MoS post.

[IH]

I don't want us to keep not lynching IH when I feel so good about him being scum and when I have demonstrated such good reasons for him being scum.

Clearly you haven't.

I'm still waiting for you to fulfill my other requests.

For what it's worth, I'm getting a massive Raging Rabbit vibe from you (and have been for much of the game). I'll explain what that means later if nobody else does.

That is the thing thats made me the most hesitant about him. The sheer tenacity of his arguments make me want to think he is town,

but

some of his counter arguments, statements, stallings, and just general one mindedness counterbalances it more.

I wish I could come to your fucking house and strangle you IRL. Seriously, fuck this game and fuck you. Pay the fuck attention or get out.

.........just asking for a quicklist off the top of your head incase you accidentally get lynched.

Another

quick list.

[/quote="Guardian"]I understand your feelings -- IH in particular is being very unreasonable, and I really think he is scum.
[/quote]

How am I being unreasonable? By making sure we have a list of MoS's suspicions when he is lynched to maximze information? By campaigning to

not

hammer Mos until he responds? By already making a post about how I'm not worried until sometime after Monday about him making a post? By responding to every single one of your arguments? To try and get you to actually clarify yourself? I'm unsure how I'm being unreasonable.

I'm not sure I like the IH-Tony interaction. I don't think IH's posts have been well thought out, though they have largely been self consistent. I don't think IH has been that reasonable in his suspicions. I don't like how he played a part in the Occult lynch -- it is obviously there, admitting it is a null tell. I am not sure about him and the lynch to 4 plan -- I think that people attacking me for that plan was stupid, and that scum might have been wary of doing so.

1.Thanks for the confidence, person who is mindlessly pushing for a lynch
2.What has been unreasonable in my suspicions?
3.I'm tired of discussing this. You seem to forget that I led the wagon onto Occult, and that it was an actualy majority of players that lynched Occult I believe (though it was a last minute hammer by mustafa

I think

) not a deadline lynch. So either all four scum jumped on, or if I am scum, then I convinced at least three other townies that it was a good lynch.
4.I'm scum for being smart.

Actually, it would help me a lot. I want to get a feel for if you have any gut intution towards the game so far. I'm quite happy for you to make a rough list, and then completely discard that list as you get more information. But I'd like to see that you have some feel about the game so far.

QFT

Curious : IH, if YB was likely scum for voting Aimee - I'd need to go back and check - but were you on the Aimee mislynch wagon?

I'm unsure if I was on the Aimee wagon or not, but I'm unsure what point you were making.... I would say that I wasn't, cause I was LURK LURK LURKing.

YB was lynched day 2, Aimee day 3... please clarify so I can reply to it properly.

Please deadline extend

[IH]

IH, I've already explained how your multiple requests of me are ludicrous, I will consider responding to the one you bolded and said was most important, but there is no way I am going to resummarize all my thoughts and suspicions on everyone, and select thoughts and suspicions of other players -- which is basically what you asked me to do.

Then there is nothing new, and pretty much all of your arguments have been refuted.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

It doesn't seem to be much lately other than "ZOMG, IH IS SCUM"

I'm unsure why you have to connect EVERYTHING in this game to me. It's getting kind of ridiculous. You aren't joking are you?

Skruffs, I really see no reason to change my agenda without changing my mind. If someone convinces me IH is not likely scum, I'd stop pushing for him. But I really really think he is scum.

I seriously doubt that, because you'll just say what you've said every other time. "I have a REALLY good feeling IH is scum, don't you see what I've shown you already?"

Aimee was most in danger of being lynched at that time - you acknowledged you would like to see Romanus, lynched, that you didn't want to see aimee lynched, and that you wanted to see IH lynched most of all. But you did not go another step and actually put a vote on Romanus - instead keeping your vote on IH, who was not really under much suspicion.

QFT

I have addressed this -- I was not sure enough of Romanus at the time and definitely am not sure enough of him now to make that move. I think it is unreasonable to expect that I should go to my number two/three suspect AND to find me scummy for this when there were any number of other players who could and should have switched.

I didn't know for sure Aimee was town, that was just my read. I felt good about it, but three players felt bad about that read, and were voting her. I didn't want to try and derail that to lynch someone who might be town -- if I helped lynch Romanus and he turned up town, Aimee and I would be suspect today. Me doing it didn't make sense. People should have switched off of Aimee and on to IH, or we should hold them responsible for Aimee's lynch. Holding me responsible for it doesn't make sense to me.

Lame. If you think someone is town, you try to save them. You don't worry about how you'll look. That's what scum do. Not town. I continue to dislike your survivor mentality.

[IH]

That confirms it. You aren't actually reading my posts....

Oh I'm reading them, but you seem to be twisting anything and everything you see into IH is scum.

I connect your behavior to you being scummy, not anything close to what you are saying. No way I'm joking.

Please either look at your posts through the filter, or review the past page or two....

I doubt I'll be convinced you aren't scum too. No one but you has even attempted to try and refute my numerous arguments as to why you are scum, and when you tried imo you didn't do so successfully.

Well, unfortunately for your case, it doesn't really matter if you believe I haven't refuted them, it matters to the town. I understand how you think I'm scum, but clearly they aren't as good as you think, and you didn't reply to my response good enough because, look, I'm still alive.

If I knew Aimee was town and Romanus was scum, I'd have moved. All I had was conjecture and reads. If I moved to "save" Aimee and Romanus was lynched and was town, then I get signed up for a mislynch. That doesn't help anyone. What's worse -- what if I was wrong? And Aimee was scum -- not only do I mislynch Romanus and get mislynched, Aimee gets off scot free. By no means was it clearly best for me to act there.

Not the point. You're worrying to much about what others will think about you, which is a scummy, or atleast anti town attitude. Thats why I pushed for Occult day 1. I didn't care that it would look like I was "distracting" away from the John lynch, I cared that I was going after scum. In other words, this argument doesn't fly. Surviving is not the object of the game, lynching scum is the object of the game.

You can say that about any lynch. "What if I was wrong?" That is also the wrong attitude to take, as then the town is paralyzed into not doing anything.

Plus look at it from my point of view.

Romanus was on your like to be lynched list.
Aimee was on your more town list.
Deadline forced you to decide between the two, but instead you stayed on me. In this case, not making a decision, is actually making a decision for all purposes.
Therefore, your suspicions are either inconsistent, or you didn't actually mean it when you wanted Romanus lynched, or thought Aimee was more town.

I have not won a single game where I've been mislynched. I've lost four. In all of those, if the town had accepted that I was town and followed my reads, we'd have won. Damn right I don't want to look scummy and get mislynched.

I seriously doubt that your last four games depended on you being alive or dead (unless you were scum). = |

Also, Thok... if I only had a record at lylo, would you say we should ignore me until lylo and THEN take my word as gospel??

That makes little sense, to me.

no one is going to take your word for gospel, because you're unconfirmed.

I continue to think it unwell of you, that if you truly want people to continue to discuss the case on me, that they should go back to day 2, instead of you posting it here for them.

Some of John's later comments seem consistent with some of his opinions of me....

Can I do no right in this persons eyes?

[IH]

Lynching scum is the object of the game. Me being mislynched =/= lynching scum. Me AND Romanus being mislynched and Aimee, who potentially was scum VERY =/= lynching scum. I tried to convince people. I don't think the impetus was on me to do more, and I don't think it makes sense to take that position.

And your defense of the Occult wagon is completely irrelevant if you found Occult very, very scummy. If you found him pretty scummy but not your top suspect, you wouldn't have acted as you did.

wtf!?

Thats a horrible track of thought, especially since it's only helpful to you, not to us in anyways. I would have considered it more protown that you had been consistent instead of wanting to stay alive.

Not only that, no crap I thought Occult was my top suspect. I explained why. Not only that, even Occult admitted it wasn't looking good for him with the case i laid out.

Plus why are you even lecturing me on the consistency of my suspicions when you haven't been consistent with your own (assuming you're town)

OR, you can go after your top suspect, and not settle for your third, and expect the town to reason with you. Which is what I am doing. I am OK with taking responsibility if you come up town, because I find the chance of that to be very small. I wasn't willing to have me take the blame and Aimee get almost cleared if Romanus is town.

Not in a frickin deadline situation where those are the only two choices. There is clearly a difference.

It's like talking to a brick wall = |

I can see it from "your" POV. Romanus I thought maybe should be lynched, Aimee I thought was probably town. My feelings were not strong enough to justify the potentially horrible consequences of my moving.

And what people seem to be missing -- it isn't as if I didn't consider this. It wasn't like a 100% obvious easy decision, it was kind of close. But I think I made the right one.

How? It wasn't even really that informative of a lynch, other than you really don't want to be lynched....

I think at least three of them hinged on people realizing I was town. And I was in the games, and have read them. You were not, and I assume you have not.

unless you were in lylo, I don't think it was dependent upon you living, because thats the whole reason there is a team. It is not dependent on any one purpose.

Maybe I just think it's kind of vain, but it irritates me slightly (not like annoyance (though it does a little bit) but like when someone declares themself the most protown without anyone out right saying it)

In other words, you're treating the rest of the town like incompetent people who are incapable of thinking or making reads or having suspicion. If you don't do it, it doesn't get done.

What!? I want people to discuss the case on you. Sitting around and asking that they do so hasn't worked, so I have to bring it foreward. I would love if people independently were bringing up arguments on you, but they aren't. Asking that I not continue to make cases on my #1 suspect is stupid.

You misunderstand me. I mean quote the case, or retype it, or something. It would at least bring it to the fore. I didn't ask, I said I think it unwell of you. In fact there is not even a question there. There is a statement, that you want people to discuss it, but you won't bring it to this page. Instead you insist on others going back to read it.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Excuse me, that was "Some of Guardian's later comments seem inconsistent with some of his opinions of me"

I'm about 10 sec away from asking for replacement because of IH and Skruffs' fucking retarded bullshit. That being said, however, I'm beginning my reread after posting in my other games today.

What the

fuck

? I don't understand how we have given you bullshit, other than some requests for when you get back to posting.

Thats what I was doing at least.
I just want to know what your problem is.

[IH]

[qupte="Guardian"]Because you tried to compare how I should have voted Romanus to your behavior on Occult -- Romanus wasn't my top suspect, Occult WAS yours -- so you voting him isn't comparable to me voting Romanus -- I was refuting YOUR analogy. [/quote]
Inconsistency is inconsistency, no matter the circumstances. A deadline lynch with two options forces you to choose someone to lynch. Not choosing is essentially choosing the lynchee if you are active.....

Why weren't you a legitimate choice? Why wasn't MoS? You required two votes, he required one....

Why am I being beaten over the head with this by you because I happened to sign in, of the 6 or so people who could have tried to make a difference?

Because we did not have enough votes on. Plus it wasn't just that you could make a difference, it was that you had expressed a thought and didn't follow through with it.
AKA inconsistency with your statements.

I bet if I had jumped onto Romanus and someone else did and he was town, you would be all over me right now, and we still would have Aimee here as a red herring. Me jumping wasn't best, imo.

Whether or not it was best, you are trying to argue that it wasn't conceivable for a townie to think that it was the best -- and that is ridiculous -- it was not at all obvious that moving my vote was the best play there, and I in fact think it was not best.

I wouldn't be attacking you for sticking to your suspicions, plus you act as if Romanus/oman has been confirmed town. It is still possible he is scum.
It may not have been obvious it was the best play, but it is obvious that there were only two choices for that lynch when the deadline gets close enough....

2 games were lylo, 2 games I kept saying "X is scum for these reasons" and no one would listen, and then it eventually got to lylo, and then not only did people not listen they mislynched me or someone else, losing the game. I don't want it to have to get to lylo here, I want you to be lynched.

Well then, if you were town, and they lynched you, that is the only reason. It's not necessarily because they didn't listen to your suspicions. PLUS, lylo and not lylo is a lot different, especially if you are unconfirmed as you generally only have 1 or 2 choices.

I think Elias is the most pro-town, he is slipping a bit lately, but still I find him, objectively at least, about as pro-town or more pro-town than me. Where are you getting this from?

Because the closest I have seen someone call you protown, is for your pressing against me so hard as town. You saying you find yourself protown (or claiming the rest of the town finds you protown) seems redundant, and like I said, raises my paranoia.

How am I doing this at all? I am asking people to teach me how you are not scum, to discuss things, to not leave me to the side and just move on. I am not taking an elitist attitude -- far from it -- I want the rest of the town to take a part in what I find to be a good case on you.

I mean the way they are responding to you, that perhaps you are wrong, and that if the town doesn't lynch me they will lose.

If people had any interest in reading my case on you, they could just look at my most recent posts in isolation. I haven't been keeping my case on you a secret...

It is only something minor, but I would call it "ease of accesibility"

?? Such as?

before I answer this, I noticed this.

You were like "Please resummarize everything you've thought and are thinking and might have thought all game." No way.

Why?

Back to the issue at hand, they were all responses to Thok's questions.

I hadn't thought about this -- I think, objectively, the people who were more responsible for a wagon disappearing were those who never voted someone -- but I don't find the initial John wagon disappearing to be that relevant or even necessarily adhering to this general principle -- I find it scummier near end of day when people piled on Occult, some even though they found John really scummy too (Vitr, for example).

Which is not me at all, but that seems to be your main point against me, right?

Other players maybe shouldn't be found fault with, as townies can definitely be unsure and then they shouldn't push agendas as much. We can't assume anyone is town though -- so while we definitely should look to see if people not pushing could be done as town, we can't assume that anyone's not pushing means they are town -- scum definitely have an incentive to get "swept away" and stop busing.

I think this was one.

This is going out on a huge limb for me, but if VitaminR continues to look bad on re-read, I guess I could theoretically support a VitaminR lynch over an IH lynch, even though an IH lynch would be better.

If Guardian starts pushing this, and VitR is lynched while his vote is still on me, I'm going to be pissed.

Glork described it to me as you busing your scum partner day one and then lurking to victory, and I skimmed the game and do not disagree with his analysis.

wtf?

You did hammer late, but you were back and forth all day. You just mentioned the double standard -- in the past few posts you were just saying that it was in defense of John, not mentioning anything about a double standard. If you thought John was scum, and Occult was scummy for only defending John, then you try and lynch John first.

If you would go back and look, he didn't say thats why, but he did say he got too focused. Which implies he was attacking him for defending him, and when other things rose up, it probably felt better and was easier to lynch Occult.

That is why day two I initally wanted YB lynched first, and only changed because

I could see YB being town (Occult defended him, after all)

and IH being scum and just following Vitr and leading a wagon on a townie, without YB being his partner.

Bolding mine.
Do you believe that all townies are always right?

mod:Could we have a tonymoonshine prod?

That is why day two I initally wanted YB lynched first, and only changed because I could see YB being town (Occult defended him, after all) and IH being scum and just following Vitr and leading a wagon on a townie, without YB being his partner.

Ctrl+Z?

Also i have yet to see a Skruffs case from you.

[IH]

Also Guardian, you do know the deadline inconsistency I've continually talked about is day 3

not day 4

right?

[IH]

Just wondering Guardian, if Tony were to come up scum, considering my actions on day 2, what would you think that would indicate about me?

[IH]

I ask you again, and I want you to respond: What are your thoughts about IH? Right now, what do you think about IH? Would you support an IH lynch?

....

How about his thoughts on EVERYONE, what he thinks of EVERYONE, and WHO is would support a lynch of.

Why should I comment on Oman/Romanus when neither of them are active?

FoS

to get a read on you. The same reason you should post.

It's my understanding players are waiting on me to post why I think Guardian is scum. I have no new reasons and anything I would post would be a recap of things I've already said. There are plently of other story lines to comment on, but I don't have the time and can't keep up with the game. I never said I wouldn't take in new information. Guardian twisted my words around to make me look scummy.

I think you need to read, and post. You may need to reread, but you need to give us SOMETHING.

"If I were scum, do you truly believe that I would not temporarily prioritize myself to be able to contribute to the game, even at the detriment of other games?"

Probably if you were about to get lynched you wouldn't, to try and give even less information

Claims are useless guys, Null tell asking for one and claiming.

I would say that a Guardian vote was not illogical, but I would like to know WHY Adel voted him.

[IH]

WTF? How is Guardian scum though? I see no reasoning.

[IH]

Untrue, that's a false dillema.

[IH]

A week is more than enough ample time to post a case on guardian.

Also that is horrible logic, since unless you two are scumbuddies, this is impossible to know before hand.

Not only that, then your false dillemma makes even more sense by trying to seperate you two into seperate factions.

[IH]

I'm unsure what it indicates, but it looked like as soon as MoS was replaced, and therefore no chance of a reread, they were willing to lynch....

perhaps thinking they are past the point of saving?

[IH]

So... attack Mustafa.

Let MoS off the hook.

Attack adel?

[IH]

Not as such. I didnt plan to attack MoS until he actually did something. He claimed to be rereading, but only made about one or two game relevant posts, both of which had nothing to do with my suspicions for mustafa nor did they have any attacks on me. Adel came into the game with a claimed full read, and voted guardian immediately for almost no reason. I felt that it was reason enough for me to express suspicion.

So.... I still see letting the replacement completely off the hook?

If I was a different townie than myself, I would be wondering if Elias_the_thief was scum trying to distance himself from me. And possibly Guardian as well.

This truly makes me nervous.

I have a feeling Adel is going to come up scum, and this is going to open up a can of worms myself.

[IH]

It's kind of pointless to get into an argument with someone else, but thats what I mean Elias.

Mustafa is in. Nothing from him. Take him out.

MoS gets in. Promise from him. Leave him alone.

Adel is in. Nothing from her. Take her out.

Now I'm not necessarily saying its a point against you, in fact it could even be viewed as a protown action.

The only thing is you seemed unwilling to let it drop so easy with Skruffs and Nar, and his came along pretty willingly.

Just something of note.

[IH]

I'm mainly comparing Skruffs replacing and MoS replacing myself.

Did I not say I'm not even sure it's an antitown action, but it is of something to note?

[IH]

IH, who are your main suspects right now? It is lost in the clutter for me. You are not voting -- why? Do you intend to vote before end of day? If so, for who?

Elias, also, do you intend to vote before end of day? Or are you not willing to vote for Adel for this promised case?

I'm quite unsure of my suspects.

I would say Adel, Tony, Oman, and perhaps you to a lesser extent.

I am not voting because I was waiting for MoS to produce a case.

I think I am going to go ahead and place the lynch minus one

Vote:adel

on Adel.

Tony I still see no evidence of the supposed twisting of words... I see evidence of you saying there is (post 1226) but I see no actual Guardian quotes.

[IH]

Post 1237 makes me sad.

for the record: I read Tony's play, and I retract that IH and Tony wouldn't make sense together -- Tony found IH so scummy day one/two, and now refuses to comment on him. I don't like that one bit.

FoS:Guardian

I would like to note that my initial game read of IH, Vitr, Skruffs has not yet been proved to be wrong... I am beginning to doubt that it is completely right (Skruffs has started playing much more reasonably), but I am definitely still highly wary of VitaminR and, of course, IH.

Interesting. I never saw a case on Skruffs. When I start pressing it (yesterday) this post comes up.

BTW, the reason I mention the IH-Tony possibility, is because that is something of a bad mark for Tony, for me -- IH being scum wouldn't necessarily rule out Tony being scum, as I'd though, and that means for me that pursuing Tony makes sense even if I am also right about IH.

Exactly as I feared. Guardian has oppened up the possibility to try and get a tony lynch AND me. So if we are in lylo, Guardian could possibly be bussing.

This is going slightly out on a limb btw.

No.

How about you explain why Adel was voting you.

Horrible reasoning.

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

......would you like to read my posts towards Elias before stating as such? Particuarly the last two or three directed at him.

I agree with Skruffs post 1257

[IH]

Why? You don't want your scum buddy lynched?

....It was a hammer on adel. Idiot. Tony ended the day effectively putting us in lylo.

Yeah, well, I don't. You asked me specifically what Tony's alignment would mean, and I began to wonder if my initial read was correct. I tried to get a read from Tony on this, and he refuses to communicate with me. So yeah, I have changed my opinion, why is that suspicious?

I don't like your backtrack personally.

Telling Tony to shape up while spending most of your post throwing suspicion on to me?

No. Horrible reasoning means it's suspicious.

After spending all of day 2 saying I was trying to get tony lynched

Guardian when I say I agree with the post, I think it's good. I also think it's not wrong. Therefore I concur with it. I agree with it.

Would you like a definition?

[IH]

Nice ad hom attack, whoever it is directed at.... I am not an idiot, and my leading question and suspcions are not at all unfounded.

I find ad hom/being mean scummy -- town have no reason to do it. This is a small pebble on top of my mountain of suspicion on you.

Yeah. My patience was wearing thin yesterday.

I don't understand why you think Ad Hom is scummy though. Please let me know why scum would be more frustrated to get their point across (which is all ad hom really does).

I doubt many players would actually calculate it's use as a demeaning tactic.

It is so ridiculous how earlier you asked me to point to one place where I'd changed my opinion in this game (as if I never had, and as if keeping the same opinion was scummy) and now you attack me for changing my opinion.

Errr, no pretty much the whole game I've been pushing against your inconsistency.

Yeah -- what ever happened to that, and to Tony's suspicions of you? They seem to have disappeared into thin air.

pretty sure they're still there, but all of my responses seem to be dealing with you.

Would you like to not be a sarcastic jerk? His post was mostly questions, and asking for clarifications -- and of the few statements he made, not all were good/agreeable with imo.

Just wondering why you couldn't figure out that "I agree with his post" means, well, I agree with it. It's agreeable.

THis would have been really good to take into consideration YESTERDAY, Guardian, before ADel was lynched. Knowing her history of bad reads regarding you, why did you not attempt to bring this up? Instead waiting until after she was lynched to disclose that you and her have 'bad blood'? That was, again, very selfish of you, game-wise, to help lynch someone that through your own experience is likely town with bad reads only because you don't like playing with them, when we are two from lylo.

I agree with this. Why did you wait until today when Adel was lynched to bring this up? You left a valuable peice of metagaming info out

I believe in bringing to the attention of everyone possible scenarios.

I do not object to this, as I do the same thing. Alot.

Because he got caught and backed out of the game. All you really did was dismiss it, which is interesting.

^^^

I don't think I agree. What bad logic / defensive?Was calling out what happened to Occult/john bad logic? Please explain fully here, I prefer not to be dismissed as a bad player when I'm not.

Same here. I agree with this. I never saw a proper case layed out on Skruffs. It was just "Skruffs is being unreasonable. Lynch plz, but let's lynch IH first. Lynch PLz."

SO you didn't vote john/yb because he was your number two suspect. This seems familiar. Isn't that exactly why you allowed Aimee to be lynched, because, even though you were sure she was town, she got lynched because you wouldn't vote for your #2 suspect of that day? Are you starting to realize that this method of playing nightless, of only voting for your #1 suspect, ISN'T WORKING TOO WELL?

This as well. I have brought up similar points to this.

So see I agree with his post.

I am sure you will twist this by saying "OH EM GEE IH, YOU R MEAN, SCUM, CAN WE LYNCH HIM!?!"

In case you can't tell I begin to tire of Guardian = |

[IH]

......Please show me an example where I have not adequately answered a question from you Guardian. I have seen this statement from you repeatedly, but never a specific example.

Please point out how my case on occult was crap, and how it was scummy to lead a wagon like that.

I could see how my arguments about you and Elias could be percieved as scummy, especially since they would only make sense if Adel was scum. If Adel had come up scum, I would have brought them up again, aka something of note.

They meant nothing without confirmation of Adel's alignment, and I figured it out to be brought up before the lynch. (I kind of feel like I've inadvertantly been ignoring this)

[IH]

Sure thing, I will show how the post of yours immediately before this I feel qualifies admirably as an example of your very contrived logic.

How so. How was it?

When have I ever said that it was?

Well you obviously think so, because you think I'm scummy for doing so.

They meant nothing without confirmation of Adel's alignment, and I figured it out to be brought up before the lynch. (I kind of feel like I've inadvertantly been ignoring this)

That is "I figured they

ought

to be brought up before the lynch.

I disagree. Scum have great incentive to cause frustration and depredation of arguments, trying to get people to ignore logic and go with gut. This has happened to me in numerous occasions, notably 24 mafia, where the scum group kept calling me "an idiot" when I had them nailed, and got the town to believe them.

So, you saying that scum would never do this and that it isn't scummy seems contrived to me.

I'd have to actually look at twenty four mafia to see the reasoning, but I know that as town I get much more frustrated, and therefore much more likely to call someone an idiot personally.

Then why ask this question, and act like I never had.....?

You are attacking me from both sides.

Untrue. You're not retracting an argument, yet still continuing to push things unconsistent (Aimee's lynch, yet contending she was town. Attacking people for not being on John, yet voting me)

"dealing with me"? You said earlier you find Tony scummier than me -- so why aren't more of your posts directed at him?

This seems like a BS excuse to me.

Because most of this thread lately seems to be me and you arguing with each other.

[Yeah, I again say -- how are you doing anything but agreeing with Skruffs for the sake of agreeing with him? As I pointed out, I definitely brought this up yesterday -- why do you agree that I didn't?

I most definitely do NOT remember you bringing this up.

This again I take issue with. I don't see how it makes any sense to basically tell the scum not to bus today, as Skruffs did -- and here you are, saying that you highly support this play.

I seriously doubt it's helping the scum.

Again, this seems like BS to me. I explained how Skruffs was being defensive and using bad logic. And you say you "agree with Skruffs" Skruffs did not take a stand here, he asked a question. And yet you agree with it?? This is the second or third time in this post he asks a prodding question and you "agree with it". How does you agreeing with a question make any sense, except as buddying scum?

1.Please quote where you said as such. If it was only your first 4 or 5 posts I'm going to be angry.
2.THey are good. Fricking. Questions. Questions I agree with. Questions I agree need an answer.

This is the first thing that is semi-legitimate, though I have responded to this and believe that the town has benefited more when I've stuck to my guns rather than when yesterday when I voted my #2 choice.

I will probably come back to this in a later post. It irks me, but I'm unsure why.

And this part, you just predict that I am going to call you out for the bad reasoning expressed in your post. Just because you knew I was going to call you out on your bad reasoning and buddying doesn't make it not bad reasoning and buddying.

No I call out that you're going to interpret everything I saw as scum.

"Now your opponent knows that all those who chose to oppose, shall yield when you wield your mighty shield."

I highly expect that to be something scummy to you.

[IH]

Tony that is horrible.

Do you just want us to look at voting records, or is there something specific you're trying to say. Quit being so vague. If someone points out something from vote records, they're going to assume you know something, which it could totally be possible you're just looking for credit for something.

In other words, why should we look at voting records?

[IH]

I think the case on John was better, and you ignored it for an inferior Occult case.

Then point out why it was inferior, and what made the john case so much better at the time?

See above... I did bring this up....

Before she was lynched?

I seriously doubt that it's not helping scum.

Explain.

How about you read through my posts and find it? Like right after my day one case, through 4 pages, Skruffs got way over defensive and used bad logic and I called him on it, that's one of many examples.

How about since it's your case, you quote it? Or is it to much trouble? I want you to point out your case and EXPLAIN it.

So you agreed that they were good questions now? Not that you agree with Skruffs's conclusions?

This is stupid.
First you say "How can you agree with Questions! You can only agree with statements!"
and then when I explain you essentially say
"You agree with his questions, why don't you agree with his statements (aka conclusions)?"

Maybe because for once you've raised a point that a townie would raise and I'm not calling you on it, while all most of your other points are bogus?

No it was something about voting your number two and sticking to your number one.

You type answers to type answers, attack easy targets (Tony and Oman right now, apparently), and do nothing to respond to others or further cases.

I type answers to type answers? I respond to posts as I read them. Thats what I do. Didn't you already attack me because of my flexible reread posts? This is what I do, I deal with things in order. I can't believe you're actually suggesting I waited til today to attack Tony and Oman, and that I've done nothing to respond to others, when I've responded to pretty much everything, basically begged MoS to post suspicions/case, have asked dozens of requests and questions of people to either further the case on someone or to clarify their points.

I also agree with the bottom part of Thok's post and don't need a smiley to say so.

[IH]

Why an Oman vote? Just curious, but it's pretty obvious Tony is just cruising along trying to get the town off his back, by suggesting a VERY generic thing.

[IH]

Who started the wagons?
Who jumped on and off??
Who hammered???

Ok. Would you do me a favor and explain what each of these would mean to you, instead of just telling us what to look for?

[IH]

and IH, for all he says he is interested in Tony, has not really done much to act on that suspicion.

QFL (Quoted for lyingness)

[IH]

Guardian, I am personally starting to start getting apathetic with your posts, and Thok is right. I'm just kind of glazing over your posts, because there's nothing changing with them. It's just you saying I'm scum for pretty much nothing at all.

I play like this in pretty much everygame, and you're the only one whose every called my responses "flippant responses", where you think it's scummy that I reply to things as I read them.

I still haven't quite understood why you think my responses are contrived. You just say they are. You quote things and say they're crap, and then if I try to respond to them, you say they're also crap, but I don't ever get a firm reason

why

.

I eagerly await why Elias thinks Tony and Skruffs are town.

[IH]

It all started when this game was a young lad, so to speak. About page 4(ish) when the Occult wagon was just starting. First, I noticed that the first person to vote Occult was IH (as guardian has said many times before). FOS: IH.

Le sigh, looking at the case, why is this scummy? Answer plz. Kthxbai.

FoS:Elias

On page 43, IH attacks him for not moving to Romanus and letting Aimee get lynched (1051). However, IH makes a typo in the post. Guardian exposes the typo and avoids the question. (1053). However, IH never brings up the point again, despite Guardians obvious evasion. FOS: Guardian, mFOS: IH.

What the hell? I've brought that up

multiple times

That has been one of the main things I've argued with Guardian about, his inconsistency!

I can see Guardian's point about Elias, and I'm unsure.

My first reaction was "How do you know Oman is town? It's just as likely he's scum."
My second reaction was "in retrospect, I can see where a townie would be upset over possible mod screwage."

Bleh

[IH]

Elias's comment about finding three scumin 17 days is Also intriguing, because, well, it mostly is made up of mistakes. IT harkens back to the days of John asking if scum could nightkill. Elias's response to it - both in pretending Oman is definitely town, and in misconstruing how the game is set up, could be a sneaky diversion.

Thats the feeling I got. Scum making a mistake with info they already have.

[IH]

See post 1388, oh he who fails.

[IH]

Please explain to me why scumElias's first reaction to reading about a modkill would be to yell at the mod. He has no reason to get that angry and it's not at all obvious for him to fake that anger as scum. It's also worth noting that you only jumped on Elias after I basically pointed out a fairly major flaw in some of your current IH arguments.

You didn't make this clear at all Thok. Or maybe I just fail at reading, after proving it already.

Though you have no reason to think he wouldn't fabricate anger in any way? To try and look town? How candid did you think that response was?

Moreover, there are things like tone of the post which are relevant. Elias could have made that post with a lot less anger, or he could have chosen to comment that people in the town needed to do more rather than attacking the mod.

Tone is relevant.

People commenting that the town could do something other than attacking the mod is not.

I am still conflicted as to what to think about Elias.

Conflicting views
1.Johnlike mistake. Seems to betray information
2.Why would scum question a modkill that could win them the game? (wifom)

Even so, the tone and content of his post are perfectly consistent with scum trying to gain brownie points. He doesn't anger town by pointing the blame at us, he just complains to the mod about how modkilling a townie is bad.

Errr, what? Wasn't he the one to say "You're giving us 17 days to kill scum"?

That doesn't mean that now because I have committed the same type of error that IH has committed that it no longer applies as a scum-tell to IH (no scum tell is perfect, and I'm quite annoyed with my self that I slipped up, twice -- but not knowing what arguments are going on is lazy townsmanship or scum, imo).

So, it's therefore a scumtell for you, right?

So, you're claiming that Elias would think about making a post where he's angry at the mod, but he wouldn't think about whether or not he would know if Omanus is town? Why would he think about one thing but not the other?

Basically, your argument requires Elias to be an incompetent diabolical mastermind. Those words don't go together; you're arguing that Elias carefully constructed his post, except for the part where he didn't carefully constructed his post. My argument simply requires Elias to be a townie arguing from his gut who didn't think things through, and there's no contradiction in his behavior.

ComPLETEly untrue. I have done that plenty of times as scum, especially in scumchat. You think you have an awesome plan, and then you do it quickly, but have left out one tiny detail. In fact, for him to be scum also, time would be a factor that he posted it quickly and didn't see it.

Setael has a few good points.... but I'm unsure how valid they are. Like Thok did talk about why he thought Guardian was town. Thok reacting like that to pressure is just Thok.

Not at all. You see, Blahgos vote was his first post from him. With no other text, there is no way to tell what it is (I think it was probably a random vote at this point). John's post comes well into the game, defending a player already taking heat. Now why would a scum go out of their way to buddy up to someone already taking heat? I can see a mafioso calling someone town to buddy up (*cough* you calling me town all game *cough*), but trying to defend someone already under pressure from meta logic? That is VERY unlikely to be buddying up. Further, I think of Johns play as noob scum. Buddying up is usually a play made by experienced scum, not noobs, from my experience. Defending buddies is a common mistake from newb scum. Therefore, it is much more likely this is defending, not buddying up.

Your own logic defeats itself. John buddying up to a player seems Wifomish, and too open. It's all to possible that John was trying to buddy up to someone, or just defend someone that he viewed as bad arguments.

I just don't think this is all that valid.

Points like this hurt your case, not help it. IH could easily have been wrong as well, we had about equal evidence for lynching either of them, really. Yet "YB could be wrong", and an IH lynch is A-Ok.

I agree with this. Fo sho.

Especially when Guardian came in attacking people for distracting away from the John lynch day 1, and then proceeded to do the same exact thing.

Thok-What is your opinion of Guardian's alignment now?

I'm starting to get a horrible twisty feeling about Guardians alignment = \

Gah, this game is getting confusing, I'm unsure if I have a firm read on ANYONE.

I don't think that all three of Thok, Guardian, and Elias are scum. Well I don't know, it is plausible. Ugh thats horribly uncomittal. At first I didn't think the scum would take this much effort to argue with each other, and then I just realized they just started arguing with each other.

A more plausible scumlist would be....

Tony
Gaurdian?/Elias?/Thok? (large decrease)
Setael?/ One of the other three?/VitR?

The only person i think I have a firm read on is Skruffs, and I think he's town. = (

Also, you count all his responses as "responding to every one of my points"? He has typed text after quoting almost all of my points, as I've said, he hasn't really responded to them in many instances.

Just caught this XD "He's typed text and hasn't really responded!" Erm, I believed I had. I responded to you the most, and am pretty sure I did. But seriously. "WTF, HE TYPED TEXT!?!?!?"

I think Thok hit on a serious flaw in Setael's case.

I can't really say much about the stuff about my predecessors, except to note that some of your arguments of the form [X never does something he said he would do] can be refuted by [X apparently got attacked by real life and needed to be replaced and thus stopped posting whatsoever, and in that case he wouldn't respond indepedent of his alignment].

Pretty much Setael attempted to refer to all of Thok's predecessor as a single person, which therefore made all of their seperate posts look worse.

[IH]

Does Elias even do scumchat? (I should know this and don't.)

Yes

IH, the point about my comment that Elias could have done other things is that hyposcumElias could have just as easily tried to gain brownie points in other ways, for example by arguing that town needs to start getting organized and lynch somebody before the modkill deadline hits. That strikes me as something scum would do in order to fake being town instead of yelling at the mod, as the brownie points it gets are more obvious and direct. It's also a more natural line of thought "Deadline=need to start lynching" is more natural than "Deadline=mod trying to screw us over!!!".

Which is why I'm calling it as "wifom" in the snese that it's too open. It's not truly valid.

You also assume that Elias would think the same.

I would also like some Setael's thoughts on

someone other than Thok

We don't need two lynchers in a game that doesn't have one.

[IH]

I lumped Thok’s predecessors as TP to keep it less confusing – it never crossed my mind that any of you would think that was all the same person. I still don’t think any of you would think that since you’ve all read the thread and most of you have been here the whole time, so I think this was grasping at straws.

Do you realize how long this thread is, and how long it took to get an active player for that role? This game has been going on since march.

I initially read from pg. 45 on to find out the current situation. The main thing that stood out (besides the bombardment of Guardian vs. IH) was the fact that no one was at all suspicious of Thok. Considering he seemed to be the main person who thought my role was scummy, I was curious how he had earned everyone’s trust and what Romanus/Oman had done to look so scummy. What I found, I posted in my first post. It surprised me that there were plenty of things that made Thok look scummy which all in all isn’t that different from anyone else, but the fact that people had called him on it and then let him slide by without responding… that I found odd. So I presented the case on him, with a vote to see how he’d respond. I don’t know for sure that he is scum, but I laid out everything I noticed that got swept under the rug. You can all decide for yourselves if you agree or not.

So you pretty much took an omgus stance on Thok, and only focused on him, because he was the main proponent against you.

If you would actually read his replies instead of just looking for something scummy against him, which you've just admitted, then perhaps you would see why he seems more protown.

P.S. Considering how mad you all seemed to be that Oman was going to get modkilled, no one seems particularly grateful that someone was willing to replace in to a FIFTY-FIVE page game. Guardian is the only one that welcomed me at all, and he didn’t hide the fact that he was just trying to get me to not retain Oman’s suspicions on him. Buncha bastards.

Sorry, I thought I said Hai. Mighta been another game.

Also, I had to reread around 47 of those pages. from 25-32 or something like that it isn't really that bad cause there was some lurking with some shorter posts.

= P

[IH]

First of all, I'd appreciate if IH and Elias would let Thok fight his own battles. He is obviously perfectly capable. Why are you both defending him and answering accusations for him? I think your reactions to my initial post were scummier than Thok's.

Because it's pretty obvious that some things can be addressed. If I see a flaw I'm pointing it out.

This game is quickly becoming frustrating. Well, moreso. Especially when a player who just replaced doesn't seem to notice one of their suspects are dead.

It looks like Setael is just going through the list and trying to find something as scummy as possible on every player.

So her conclusion is automatically everyone is scum, as there is nothing indicating anymore than around two or three of their motivations. The only one who she did was Thok, and apparently that was because people thought he was protown (which baffles me)

[IH]

Maybe you didn't catch where I said I had read it and didn't see why you're all assuming he's not mafia. Is it really so hard to give me your reasons for assuming he's Town?
Also, stop putting words in my mouth, IH. I never "admitted" to doing that because that's not what I did. I went back to find how he gained all of your trust and avoided ever being suspected or voted.

You thought we found him town.

You wondered why.

You started looking for scummy things.

Thats what I understood you did.

Now you're saying I did it BECAUSE people thought he was protown. No wonder you're baffled. If you would quit twisting my words and making false assumptions, you'd see that the way I went about reading the thread makes sense for a thread so long.

No, I'm saying that from your last post. Post 1365. I'm assuming you're going through players one at a time, and just attacking them. Thats certainly what it's looking like.

I also didn't "fight Thok's battles" as I left the majority of the post for him to post about I believe. The only thing I responded to before Thok posted was about "Thok's Predecessors"

I responded to your post 1360, because it didn't need Thok to respond to it. I needed to point out something scummy. You just omgusly attacked Thok. Let me requote it and bold the important parts.

I initially read from pg. 45 on to find out the current situation.

The main thing that stood out (besides the bombardment of Guardian vs. IH) was the fact that no one was at all suspicious of Thok. Considering he seemed to be the main person who thought my role was scummy, I was curious how he had earned everyone’s trust and what Romanus/Oman had done to look so scummy.

What I found, I posted in my first post. It surprised me that there were plenty of things that made Thok look scummy which all in all isn’t that different from anyone else, but the fact that people had called him on it and then let him slide by without responding… that I found odd. So I presented the case on him, with a vote to see how he’d respond.

I don’t know for sure that he is scum, but I laid out everything I noticed that got swept under the rug. You can all decide for yourselves if you agree or not.

So there you admit kind of roundaboutly that your reason for scrutinizing Thok was he was the main proponent against your predecessors.

Not only that, you attempt to seem very unsure, but in your later posts this feeling is not there at all.

I feel tempted to vote Setael.

[IH]

Ok. I feel Thok is protown, because he is not just mindlessly following any point. He is taking time to explain with his points, and argue with the highly frustrating Guardian that it is certainly viable that we're both town. He has even gone far enough to show him that some of his arguments apply to me.

I find his innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

[IH]

It has not changed.

Especially considering how long it's taken him to do so.

[IH]

I'm unsure why Guardian thinks both of us are scum, other than to fit with his personal theory I am scum.

If Thok was scum, it'd be a much more likely scenario he was trying to defend a townie (me) so when I come up, and Guardian's reasons are proven to be really really trivial, then Thok would come up in a better light.

Guardian prefers to think Thok is just trying to save a scumbuddy if he is scum.

[IH]

I am.... definitely unsure. I haven't gone indepth into it yet, and I'll try to later.

I'm definitely glad I didn't comment when I first read, because when I first read Guardian's post I thought he meant it didn't make sense for Thok to bus him. When Thok said something about it, he said "He used the wrong word" which would mean thats NOT what he meant. Also there's alot more posts here than there were this morning.

[IH]

Le sigh Setael.

sort of dissolved once Thok started the Guardian wagon. Thok ended up doing the thing that IH pointed out would most benefit Thokscum. Please also notice that IH said "bus" here when I think he meant "wagon." Unless of course he knows for sure that both Guardian and Thok are scum, in which case he may have meant bus.

I find his [Thok's] innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

Ok.
1.I meant bus. If Thok was scum, and so was Guardian, then it would be an easy bus. If Guardian was town it's be even easier to agree with him, and if he was lynched, Guardian would be a perfect mislynch

2.After I had stated as such, and given the time in between, the reason is no longer valid. Do you not see how long it's been since Thok replaced and argued with guardian?

Now, there is one concern I have with Thok. You said you were almost certain Guardian was town Thok, because of his vehemence against me. What do you think about that now?

[IH]

This makes no sense to me. Isn't that pretty much the definition of a nightless game - scum not being able to talk? It looks to me like you took something that everyone would automatically assume and tried to make it look like something only mafia would know.

No, thats the definition of a nightless game for scum.

Knowing IH's alignment would really help me, since if he is town, I agree like 100% with his suspicions (disregarding me of course), and him being town makes VitR look a bit better, and makes all three of Tony, Thok, Elias, look more plausible.

Which doesn't help us at all since we're in lylo, right?

OK, and I want to see how she catches up, her not catching up before making the comments was a bit scummy imo.

Curious, but how does posting as quickly as possible scummy?

There are things I'm suspicious about Setael about, this is not one of them.

You have defended him with such absolute certainty, you seemed to be trying to make it look like I was very scummy *for attacking IH*, regardless of the arguments used. I think that it is possible you found me scummy *for attacking a townie* and tried to use that as your argument.

What? He said you were town almost the ENTIRE time.

So me finding you a higher suspect makes it so that I need to die? Over the past few pages I've mentioned how I thought you really might be scum after all, and you have responded by pushing a me-Oman conneciton, then a me opportunistic vs. Oman disconnection, and basically anything to build up momentum to bus me, I don't get it.

Sounded more like a one two mislynch to me. (If IH is town, then Thok is probably scum)

Yeah but if you read his posts, he's been planning to do it for about 5 pages, or more. Just because he waited to put the vote on doesn't make his reasons any better.

False. Timing is everything.

No, you need to die because you are scum. I've mentioned the you/Romanus connection way before you ever claimed to be suspicious of you; part of my case against Romanus back around post 1270 or so included the fact that you seemed to be deflecting pressure away from him for no particularly good reason. Also, why are you claiming I'm trying to bus you?

confirm vote Guardian

Funny thing is, Thok would have to be scum for this to be relevant I think. For Thok to bus him, they'd have to be buddies together.

You are trying to wagon me. With confirm votes and the like. What do you mean "why am I claiming this"??

How does confirming a vote mean someone is trying to wagon you?

Yeah seriously, I don't like your last post at all. I like my vote on Tony and I don't like vote hopping so extremely, but FOS: Thok.

Why did it take you a seperate post to say this?

I'm going to ignore Guardian talking about his well founded attacks, cause that has been done to death.

I don't like GUardians frenzy of defensive responses I think... like 6-7 posts out of 10?

Seriously, I bet at least 2/3 of my wagon right now is scum, possibly 3/3.

Omgus

Wow, seriously, I am at -2 right now.... This is just like day 3, there is such little of a case on me this is ridiculous, Tony or Thok should probably be the play.

Attempting to lynch someone else, deflection of his own case.

I feel like i want to move to Guardian after post 1404

Yeah wtf, why would I want to be connected to you? You are being so scummy right now.

If that is your reason for voting me, that's completely foolish.

I almost find you more scummy for your reasoning than Tony for his lack of reasoning...

Now let that sink in, and look how lame that first sentence sounds.

I don't like the Guardian wagon. At all.

why

I realized that me posting every post about IH would not be effective. WTF "forced out". I could still be doing that, and apparently wouldn't have attracted as many votes. Instead, I decided to open my mind and prod various players -- and now isntead of me attacking IH as scummy, you find me attacking more than one person as scummy. WTF double standard!?

How did you misconstrue you having to find something else to do into being a double standard? Thats either right or wrong. Also you're still having that survivor mentality which I hate. "Apparently I wouldn't have attracted as many votes"

Seriously, IH Tony or Thok needs to die, with Elias as a close runner up.

I like how Thok got up there with me as soon as he started to attack you, but was almost certainly protown when he was the closest to replying to your arguments.

Thok's answers are impeccable in post 1418, but theres one or two things that bother me.

So wait, just a few posts ago you claimed that you saw IH as town for the first time in forever, but now you want to go back after you. And you had FOS's on Setael and Elias (with Elias's comment about Oman/Setael making it likely to you that he was scum), but now Setael's completely ignored and Elias is only fourth?

Actually he claimed the scumlist was very similar, even though my list was horribly vague with around half the players compatable as scum with the other half.

If Guardian was scum, he could be lying about me trying to bus him in order to set up the above argument.

At this point I don't think Guardian would do that.

You Tony and IH are scummier than Elias, and Setael adequately responded to my prod.

..... I think you think Setael is townie-er because she wants Thok to be scum.

Wow. In the future I’ll be sure to read all 55 pages and then re-read so that I can formulate a post before I ever make a comment – if that means the players wait for a post from me for 3 weeks, so be it.

Three-Four one hour sessions would have done it I think. maybe a little longer

Setael completely ignores the meat on the case against Guardian, but instead tries to use it against Thok.

Seriously, we don't need two lynchers in a game where there is none in the setup

Maybe because freudian slips are a very poor scum tell, and if it *was* a freudian slip it would mean I am scum with you, and you know that's not true.

Thok hasn't been saying it was a Freudian slip.

Heck, it could even work as a Freudian slip from my point of view if we assume that you are scum with somebody else who's currently trying to push you, and you were thinking about them bussing you rather than about me bussing you and messed up names.

Don't like this. Think it's more proving a point, but unsure.

I don't have the time to go into all the arguments against Guardian. Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. Also, to be honest, there is so much text in this game that I'm finding difficult to distil the essence of what people are trying to say. I simply don't have the time for it.

1.Once again, WHY. You say his past actions gave you a protown vibe, yet I have presented a conflicting view of that, with him staying on me to allow aimee to be lynched, and to want John lynched, and then switching to me. Not only that, his survivor mentality, that HE NEEDS TO LIVE.

2.THis game recquires a little bit more commitment I am finding. I have to sit down and comprehend everything or I'm lost.

I agree. Thok's case on Guardian seems kind of weak, especially if you throw the use of the word "bus" out the window, since it seemed pretty obvious he meant "wagon." Maybe Thok thought we were all sufficiently annoyed with Guardian’s lengthy and drawn out IH tirades that we’d be willing to jump onto a Guardian wagon. Apparently Tony was the only one that worked on. Elias at least seemed to have a reason of his own.

Untrue. I like how everything is being focused on the use of the word bus, when Thok and Elias both voted for, and had a case against guardian beforehand.

sort of dissolved once Thok started the Guardian wagon. Thok ended up doing the thing that IH pointed out would most benefit Thokscum. Please also notice that IH said "bus" here when I think he meant "wagon." Unless of course he knows for sure that both Guardian and Thok are scum, in which case he may have meant bus.

You have no mind for hypothetics or timing, do you?

Yours was a conscious decision to call Oman def town. Mine was a use of an incorrect term.

They are categorically different things.

Thok thinks it may have been a concious decision. It's the same situation.

HYPOCRITE X2

You arguments are mostly misinterpretations/misunderstandings of my arguments if not completely bull-shittery.

I know the feeling from a few pages back.

I never commented on the IH/Guardian back and forth because, unless you checked the thread 3 times a day, there was no way you could stay up to date. The same is now happening with Elias and Guardian.

I did

So when you made the post, what did you think/assume about Oman's alignment?

This is a loaded question, because whatever he answers, it shouldn't matter because it was not a concious thought, according to him.

To go from "I've been suspicious of Oman all game and I'd like to see him lynched" full circle to assuming he's Town is pretty huge, and I'd have expected some reasoning behind it... or for him to at least MENTION it in one if not all of his posts detailing his reread. It doesn't add up. Maybe in Elias' desire to look pro-Town by being upset at the mod's announcement, he just slipped and forgot he was supposed to be thinking Oman was scummy. His "knowledge" that Oman was Town came through accidentally, and after that, the rest was backpedaling.

it actually looked like you left out the full quote.

On the other hand,

I've been suspicious of Oman/Romanus all game, and would like to see him lynched.

IH for his anti-town behavior all game. These reasons are convincing, but I've summarized them many many times to go into detail here. Actions on wagons and contrived responses are recurring themes.

Contrived would mean they were false, and I never found you had proved them false, you just complained I was just typing.

Makes it tough to give a summary/case – anything can be excused as “behaving weirdly”

Which is true. Skruffs is tough to read. He's usually lynched regardless though. <3 Skruffs

*And yet it’s ok to disregard what Skruff’s predecessor did? I don’t hear any complaints that Skruffs was given a clean slate.

1.MoS's predecessor was recorded. Skruffs was not. MoS's predecessor did not have a reputation for ruining games and being highly eratic. Skruffs did.

Thok, what do you think if Romanus/oman/setael and Elias are both scum? Would a modkill objection be to major a jump? You don't seem to consider this at all.

Setael you can look at one persons posts all at once by using the filter at the bottom, just select the desired player, and go to town. = D

I like how Skruffs drops off of Guardians scumlist. I never did see why Skruffs was scummy to him in the first place.

I can definitely see TonyScum. His posts 1469 and 1471 left much to be desired. Skruffs is higher on my scum list, but Tony has refused to acknowledge or respond to any of the points I have brought up against him. Any way I slice it, I think Tony is on the Dark Side.

Unvote; vote: TonyMoonshine

Wow what a backpedal. Setael had JUST put her vote on Skruffs

I'm currently unsure where I want my vote. I just know I feel slightly better about Elias, a little worse about Thok, aLOT worse about Guardian, and better about Setael (though not for her backpedal)

I don't know where I want my vote X_X;five is a hammer.... this day has gone long enough and I really haven't liked Tony's responses...

I want him at lynch minus one

vote:Tony

Also if we mislynch today, we go into lylo.

[IH]

Guardian, I feel that today a Tony lynch would be better. I have not tried to setup a one two mislynch (Which if Tony is town, then you are most definitely scum), as you have with me and Thok.

Tony has needed to have been lynched a day or two ago.

[IH]

I also notice that you take him off of lynch minus one to vote for me, like you have with every other wagon.

[IH]

Guardian, I feel that today a Tony lynch would be better. I have not tried to setup a one two mislynch (Which if Tony is town, then you are most definitely scum), as you have with me and Thok.

Tony has needed to have been lynched a day or two ago.

Hey, how about this? Way to ignore things.

[IH]

Guardian, I feel that today a Tony lynch would be better. I have not tried to setup a one two mislynch (Which if Tony is town, then you are most definitely scum), as you have with me and Thok.

Tony has needed to have been lynched a day or two ago.

I messed this up in my last psot I quoted it.

Response?

Also, haven't I attacked you for things of that nature the past few days?

[IH]

So......... he's too scummy to be scum? Seriously?

[IH]

1.Thats horrible

2.So you're essentially going with whatever works it seems. Or at least trying to stay on Guardians goodside?

[IH]

Guardian, I feel that today a Tony lynch would be better. I have not tried to setup a one two mislynch (Which if Tony is town, then you are most definitely scum), as you have with me and Thok.

Tony has needed to have been lynched a day or two ago.

Posted for the third time for Guardian's benefit.

[IH]

Le sigh.

Guardian, if what you're insinuating is correct, then what would be the most likely for me being scum, building a case on you, and then voting for someone else?

The most likely case if I was scum would be I was defending a scumbuddy and distancing, which would have to be you.

[IH]

If I'm lynched at least it will make GUardian commit to another player.

[IH]

EDIT-BTW deadline lynches continue to suck

unvote, vote:Guardian

Seriously, we can't just lynch tonyscum.

[IH]

I believe what happened was that I moved to it so we could get an actual lynch instead of a semi half hearted deadline lynch, and move the game along.

Guardian did what he has done every day, and moved to me.

Then everything just kind of went downhill.

I also had not seen Setael's post about how she think's I'm town, but still votes me.

FoS:Setael

I would prefer a Guardian lynch though.

I'm unsure how I feel bout Thok unvoting.

Today's preferred lynch candidates
Guardian
Tony

Tomorrow's preferred lynch candidates
Tony
Guardian
Setael

The biggest thing about Guardian is the speed with which he hopes votes.

First he unvotes me, and votes Setael.
Then Setael unvotes, and votes me
THEN Guardian unvotes her, and then REVOTES me.

[IH]

I'm personally unsure how much I believe that to be honest.

[IH]

I mainly think if you were calling his bluff instead of wanting me to get lynched, you would have voted me a little earlier than around 24 hours to deadline or less.

In case that didn't come across.

[IH]

- If there is a tie at deadline, one will die. This depends on random circumstances,

my mood, my personal opinon for this player

, the weather, etc.

Glad you're not CPE or else I'd die and wouldn't even be somebody tied XD

unvote vote Setael

IH would have been 100x better. And still IS 100x better. FOS: VitaminR. If you didn't happen to check in that is really unfortunate.... but it makes me think you are full of it.

This actually means you're the top candidate at the moment. Also, now that you were the only one on me, why didn't you move your vote again, instead of trying to sit on me.

Like every other day?

Me too -- he ALSO had an opportunity to make a deciding vote, and didn't.

Thok (if scum) would much rather Setael voted and he didn't have a hand in deciding who was lynched.

His question was legitimate, but his action in NOT voting was NOT legitimate.

Confirm Vote:Guardian

YOU ALSO HAD A CHANCE TO MAKE A DECIDING VOTE. AROUND 5 POSTS SINCE SETAEL UNVOTED ME

[IH]

Thok, I think that you're trying to force a meta on Setael when there really isn't one....

Think Luckay Luck style logic, except not as reaching.

I just don't think we can gather anything conclusive if she isn't dead in any games she's replaced in. And even then, more than one.

[IH]

Yay for extra lives. (Munches on a green mushroom)

To be honest, I did check the thread, but I chickened out (I really was torn) and figured I'd have time to check in again anyway before the deadline.

FoS

I also missed Guardians vote change and thought it was an FoS.

I'm unsure how I feel about Thok.

SKRUFFS PLAY IS TOO PERFECT! SCUMZORZ! (Reference to the first nightless <.<)

A larger post sometime soon as I try to refrain from doing larger posts here at the college (to many distractions to think straight) but if I have to hijack the main phoneline or something then I'll make a big post tonight.

[IH]

You aren't linked to Setael? You can't tell me that after yesterday when she said she thought we were both town, and then voted me to "call vitR's bluff", and then moved her vote to someone other than you?

I mean you can try to blindly ignore a fact, but whatever.

[IH]

BTW I've started a day five review, and I would like to draw attention to two things very early about Guardian's play. How he was suspicious of Tony, and how he backtracked on his opinion about Tony and I, despite his vehemence about it the following days for my day 2 play.

[IH]

I would say that VitR scum wouldn't be that surprising with Guardian. Elias either.

[IH]

Hm. I would have at least liked to hear something from Adel, that is a shame, and a bit surprising . I'd rather have been lynching IH .

Tony, you are rising quickly on my scumlist. Explain all the things you were supposed to explain before lynching Adel, and then try and explain what possibly motivated you to move off of me and on to Adel.

My thoughts? You are scum and wanted to make sure the lynch of a townie happened.

Also, seeing as you have constantly and consistently thought I was scummiest, what prompted you to move on to Adel?

for the record: I read Tony's play, and I retract that IH and Tony wouldn't make sense together -- Tony found IH so scummy day one/two, and now refuses to comment on him. I don't like that one bit.

I was completely decided that I was going to continue pushing the IH case today, but I am beginning to think that Tony might make more sense....

Tony, you have some explaining to do.

vote: Tony

Curious why guardian left this, as I would think he'd press this more, but eventually ended up back onto me.

I will be curious to see as how this transpired.

Yeah, I don't want a speed lynch of Tony by any means -- I want to hear from him, but it would be absolutely crucial if we hit scum today.

I would like to note that my initial game read of IH, Vitr, Skruffs has not yet been proved to be wrong... I am beginning to doubt that it is completely right (Skruffs has started playing much more reasonably), but I am definitely still highly wary of VitaminR and, of course, IH.

Which is actually putting the wrong spin on it GUardian. Your read on us hadn't been proved because we haven't been lynched.

FoS:Guardian

BTW, the reason I mention the IH-Tony possibility, is because that is something of a bad mark for Tony, for me -- IH being scum wouldn't necessarily rule out Tony being scum, as I'd though, and that means for me that pursuing Tony makes sense even if I am also right about IH.

I continue to find this backtrack scummy.

No.

How about you explain why Adel was voting you.

Faulty tony scum.

Major FoS:Tony

I dislike how VitR tries to distance himself from the wagon in post 1250 (top of page 51)

Tony never did explain his hammer on adel.

I am suspicious of Tony's hammer because he expressed no suspicion of Adel, and Adel was trying to promote a me-wagon, Tony's main suspect.

Hammering Adel was not internally consistent with Tony's thinking.

Guardian points out an interesting link between himself and Tony.

Yeah, I should look at the wagon results better and not post in a hurry. I think I got confused as with me it was MoS and with Elias it was Adel, and IH never voted for MoS. Still, lame slipup, my fault.

And I would say this proves Guardian is just looking for anything that makes me look suspicious.

What part? You agree that the questions should be asked? Explain what you are doing here other than agreeing with Skruffs

I still contest this was pointless and stupid.

I am not convinced that he OR you is town OR scum, so, theoretically, if we were to cede and vote IH and he turned out to be town and it turned out that you were pushing for a townie at the expense of everything else for most of the game...
I'm asking if you would be willing to put your money where your mouth is. If we lynch IH and he's town, would you be willing to be lynched the next day? Is *that* how sure you are that he is scum? I am not indicating if this should happen, but I am curious if you are THAT sure of IH being scum that you are willing to potentially LOSE the game over it?

Tentative

FoS:Skruffs

I seemed to have skimmed over this before.

Guardian, do you still claim Tony and I could be scum together? Have you forgotten about day 2?

However, I am quite sure IH is scum -- and I would be willing to potentially LOSE the game over it -- if we lynch someone other than IH today and they end up not scum, I will very likely vote IH early tomorrow (at lylo -- and if IH is not scum then at that point the scum could quicklynch him to win).

Major FoS

[quote="Guardian]

My reasons for lynching Adel were mostly selfish. I wish to get this game over ASAP so I have more time for other things. I wasn't following the vote count until Mod posted last update. I realized I could hammer, but I didn't know how shitty of a spot it would put the town in. Before you ask, I would do it all over again.

That's really bad play, if you are town. Why would you do it all over again? [/quote]

After claiming you would lose the game, just to let me be lynched.

FoS:Guardian

What are your thoughts on these voting histories? Read back a few posts -- what conclusions do you draw from them?

I don't want to unvote IH by any means, but Tony does not seem like a bad second option. But IH is the play. IH should be lynched.

This statement looks indecisive as if he's trying to convince himself and then everyone else.

This statement also looks like he's throwing suspicion onto Tony, but to keep his vote on me. I kind of get the feel that Guardian votes me, calling me scummy, and I'm a "placeholder" until he can find a secondary player, if that makes sense. Like it's a good way to really call anyone else extremely scummy as long as he stays on me, he doesn't have to commit as much on everyone else.

Post 1269 is significant.

However, I am quite sure IH is scum -- and I would be willing to potentially LOSE the game over it -- if we lynch someone other than IH today and they end up not scum, I will very likely vote IH early tomorrow (at lylo -- and if IH is not scum then at that point the scum could quicklynch him to win).

What?

FOS Guardian

. This can't be a protown point of view. Your case against IH isn't strong enough to justify voting him immediately out of lynch or lose.

No -- it is. I don't get how people are still not seeing this, but IH is almost surely scum. His play has not been pro-town in the slightest, very few of his actions could I see as having pro-town motives... if we don't lynch IH today and lynch a townie instead,

I will maybe wait a little bit tomorrow

, but I think that forcing the issue is appropriate -- IH is scum, and needs to be lynched.

Notice how Guardian does one thing important here. A slight backpedal. Hardly unnoticeable. It has nothing to do with his commtiment to the case against me, but instead the give in of pressure. Just because Thok says that it cannot be a protown point of view to want your suspect lynched that much. Guardian then responds maybe he

will

wait.

I show this later in this post!! You started replying to my post before you'd even finished reading it

I'm quite unsure how this is scummy, btw. I seem to post like that in every game, and you're the only person who has really objected to it.

Voting analysis didn't bring us anywhere in the last Nightless game. Granted, that was partly due to Stoofer playing an amazing game, but still.

I'm a bit tired of waiting for something to happen.

Vote: Oman

Everybody. Please note this. FoS:VitR

Like I said, Tony makes a good second choice, and VitaminR looks like a good third, with Oman being also a good possibility if one of those three doesn't turn out... but IH needs to be lynched today, pretty much.

Note Guardian's scumlist. IH on top as usual. Tony a good second choice. VitR all the way down at number three, and Oman thrown on there willnilly.

Also, I'll say again, for the record, that YB was my #2 suspect and while I wanted IH gone first it was clear I did not at all oppose the YB lynch.

......... defense before an attack?

This Post is significantly excellent. Protown points for Elias.

It is completely clear that YB was my #2 suspect, and that IH was far and above my #1 suspect. I've responded to this many times. Voting YB at the end of day would have meant nothing -- YB was going to be lynched, and I would have rather had IH lynched. I saw no reason to move my vote.

warning-The following is a theoretical scenario

I think.... Guardian was in fact reading this game before he replaced in. If Guardian is in fact scum, and already had a case against John/Yogurt Bandit, he'd probably use it, but probably balked at lynching him. This leads to me. For Guardain to try and find another lynch, he'd need to find a person to distract from John/Yogurt Bandit. He then began attacking me.

He continues to attack me, because of the point against him that he moved off of Yougurt bandit, when his initial read had Yogurt bandit being confirmed scum, and then changing it extremely quickly for being that sure. For him to be able to move off of Yogurt/John, he would need an exceptionally strong reason for doing so. Which is would explain why he has harped on me for so long.

End Theoretical scenario

EXAMPLES! The beginning of Guardians first post and the beginning of Guardians second post. Notice the shift?

Hey guys.
I do have limited access but I've read the whole thread and am ready to contribute!

I thought I was replacing john, which made me kind of sad, because my inital notes before reading my role were that the most likely scumlist was:

Vitr, IH, nar(now Skruffs), and john(now yb). Luckily, I am replacing BM not john, so my analysis shall not go to waste

Suprisingly I had time for a reskim. I realize I am wrong about Vitr steering the John lynch, I guess IH and Vitr got mashed together in my mind. He was happy with lynching either of them, and he did hammer though.

That being said, Vitr and IH seem to agree with me that john is the next play, his pregame question was absolutely scummy, and his reactions to the happenings in the game seemed scummy.

I am now somewhat less suspicous of Vitr and moreso of IH. Finding IH to be scum would make me more convinced of Vitr, as they still seem linked to me in my reread.

Now. Some notes. Guardian felt I was following VitR. He originally stated in his first post that for me to be scum, it would first need YogurtBandit to be lynched. That would mean VitR would be scum, and that would mean Nar/Skruffs and I would be scum (apparently).

Now, why would Guardian balk at this original plan? Assuming he is scum with not only YogurtBandit but VitR also, that would mean for two town lynches, that they would not necessarily follow him on, they would need to lynch two scum (Buddies) first.

YB makes the most sense to lynch to me for today (again I'm happy I didn't inherit that role) and I am happy to go along with his (again imo) scum buddies in voting him.

vote YogurtBandit

Which changes as we all know. What's funny is how this changes to where IH is the play for today.

Romanus is no longer as likely town in my eyes, but other than the two things I pointed out I find him a pretty likely town candidate.

Notice the contradicting statement? He is no longer likely town, but you find him a pretty likely town candidate.

We also now know that Romanus is scum.

= |

I will be perfectly clear right now: I believe John is a good play for today even though I think his scum partners are getting some distancing out of it, but I will switch my vote if either Vitr Skruffs or IH come under more pressure, especially if the deadline stands. The fact that both Skruffs and Vitr are on the john wagon actually does make me wonder about it a bit.

Notice how he says he believes John is the play today, but essentially treats him as a number four, as he would switch his vote to make sure one of me, Skruffs, and VitR are lynched.

I'm going to go ahead and

Vote:Guardian

from things I've already seen. Back to day 5 I believe.

I don't know what to make of post 1327 with the knowledge of Oman's alignment... I'm leaning towards Elias being town.

Notice how Guardian uses this to effectively avoid responses to Elias

disagree. Well, maybe at the end it was. But YB possibly could have been wrong, and I didn't want to support it. IH was my top choice

BS

This is as far as I've gotten on day 5 so far, but I felt that my discoveries/thoughts were important on the matter. I will attempt to read the rest of it later, and respond to all of this that I've let slip by.

[IH]

Lies! He was almost as scummy as IH, and I obviously, obviously supported his lynch. And -- what do you know -- Setael was my second choice to IH -- and I was on her lynch wagon.

It would be worth of note that Guardian attacked me for being on a late day lynch wagon of a townie when "nobody would be blamed if she was scum" or something.

It was also simultaneous with me arguing that her complete lack of response AND her predecessors actions WERE full of scum tells.

Much of my suspicion of mustafa came from your (imo seemingly good) advice to look for who supported Occult over John. Mustafa was obviously one of those characters, and he also had a few other black marks on his record.

This looks DrippingGoofballish in which she took up her scumbuddies arguments after he was confirmed scum (See Mini 413, Cats mafia, for more)

My bad about the John lynch -- IH *has* brought that up repeatedly -- I thought you agreed with it.

My voting record, I *guess* is arguably bad -- but not counting day one, I've lynched one townie and one scum. Certainly others have done equally bad or worse

Voting records should count not only end of day lynches, but who you hopped around on during the day.

I feel that 4 players are way too uncertain about IH's scum-ness. He's scum. He needs to die. If he isn't scum -- wait, that start of a sentence is a non-sequitor. He's scum.

I've been feeling this a while, but I think it's time to bring up Arguments from repetition

IH: what do you think of Skruffs and Elias?

Since reading more of day five I think Skruffs alignment as town would be dependent on Guardians, since Guardian has attacked Skruffs alot without providing reasons. Guardian being town=Skruffs still unsure. Guardian being scum=Skruffs town I think

I think Elias is town, tbh.

Woah -- so you basically believe this?:

If a player votes someone else when someone who later turns up scum is also up for lynch, that player has the burden of explaining why he WASN'T voting for that scum post mortem?

Thok, before I respond, in your opinion, did I have the responsibility of explaining why I wasn't voting Romanus at the time, before we knew his alignment, or only after, when we now do know his alignment?

Think deadline situations. I think you should have when keeping your vote on me instead of on romanus. I didn't have a chance to be lynched. Romanus did. Now, before you say it wouldn't have made a difference, it would make even

less

of one by staying on me. In my mind, you essentially helped lynch aimee by freezing your vote.

[IH]

No, it just felt like caving, like I pointed out elsewhere in the post. Posting just to satisfy someone, while essentially keeping his stance.

[IH]

Guardian has been attacking me most of the game, right?
And if guardian is lynched, and turns up scum, I'm probably town.
Well...
Romanus attacked guardian/bm almost his entire game.
Doesn't that make Guardian more likely to be town?

Well, were Romanus's attacks illfounded? Like if Guardian came up town/scum, I wouldn't expect to be cleared, in fact I'm willing to bet that no matter Guardian's alignment, I'll probably be lynched. Thats the problem with Guardian's play.

This is a hypothetical statement, before you try to use this as a slip Guardian.
If he's scum, it just looks like he's trying to get a buddy killed, because he looks like he knows to much.

If he's town, eh, I might not be lynched, but I doubt it as someone will probably say "OH EM GEE, LOOK AT THESE POINTS GUARDIAN BROUGHT UP!" If that happens, I will probably be pretty suspicious of said player, depending on the degree they push as such (assuming Guardian dies before I do)

I expect to not make it to the end of the game in other words.

You, on the other hand, have been repeatedly attacked by Guardian. "Skruffs is scum"
"why?"
"WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO BACK AND READ!?"
"It's your case you should know it"
"we need more IH lynch"

Thok I presume you unvoted because Skruffs post made you nervous?

[IH]

In case this was unclear...

Guardian-"Skruffs is scum"
IH-"why?"
Guardian-"WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO BACK AND READ!?"
IH-"It's your case you should know it"
Guardian-"we need more IH lynch"

[IH]

And honestly, maybe I messed up. I've admitted this many times -- it wasn't an "obvious" decision. But I had about 15 minutes on vacation to think about it, and I figured that if I was wrong and Aimee was scum, last minuted deadline lynching Romanus, who I thought was not at all surely scum, would have basically ruined the game.

I'm going to bold this: people don't seem to give me any credit that I admit it was a close decision, nor do they give me credit that I didn't know Aimee's alignment; I thought she was town, but lynching a townie and having her lynched tomorrow because no one else thought she was town doesn't help anything.

Of course you don't seem to take the fact in that Romanus turned out to be scum. Or that you even entertained that notion when making your decision... because you thought that either way Aimee would be lynched anyway.

In the bottom half of his post, Guardian is responding to things as he reads them, ala responses to Skruffs.

Who else does things like that?

Thats me, btw.

Guardian, caving, in this sense, is not you changing your stance. It's just making an offhand comment just to get a player off of your back, which means you didn't actually mean your first original statement. Just saying things you

think

are protown. I'm trying to be as clear as possible here.

IH=\=coherencey I think ;_;

[IH]

Wait. You know his role? Whats that referring to?

[IH]

mkay, I was just clarifying, because that wouldn't have even made me sense to your point I think, but I'm unsure. I'll respond to things if I see fit to respond to them tonight.

[IH]

Guardian should I go back and quote every single thing I have said signified your survivor mentality?

I agree with Tony on this point and don't need a smiley to say so.

[IH]

You agree that my only goal in this game has been to survive?

That's obviously incorrect....

I would say it's been a large goal of yours.

I believe this discussion is more of a scum tell for IH than Tony. I'm not happy with IH sheeping onto Tony's opinion. I need to do a check to see whether IH has been following others a lot this game. I think I've noticed him doing it a couple of times before, but I want to gather more evidence. (I also want to see if he's more prone to sheeping as town or scum.)

I have mentioned Guardian's survivor mentality almost everytime I have attacked him. I would say it would be closer to Tony following me than me following Tony.

Occult was a Day 1 lynch. That's different. Also, to say Guardian has been begging people not to lynch him is a gross overstatement. On top of that, both providing useful information for the next day and doing everything you can to avoid getting lynched are valid pro-town tactics.

When did doing everything to avoid being lynched become a protown tactic? I've always felt the opposite. With the Setael Lynch we're also like two days away from Lylo.

I personally do not like the VitR defense of Guardian.

[IH]

How would it make Tony look good? What happened to Thok? Do you think that Setael would have thought that far ahead since she pressed a pretty much omgus case on Thok? Do you seriously think that her case on Thok was bussing?

[IH]

In fact, what is so different about Setael pressing her case on Thok as you pressing your case on me?

[IH]

Please no, I've been having an extremely hard time posting in my mafia games. I'll try to get back to posting regular in the next week or so. but Math first.

[IH]

a 32 and 55 as my current test grades? Math needs to come first.

Also

FoS:Skruffs

for his above post I think.

[IH]

That's an easy, kneejerk FOS. I don't like it.

That he essentially would have a "good lynch" on someone he thinks is town, just to stop the Guardian-IH thing? You honestly don't think that's scummy at all?

[IH]

1725 and 1733 make sense to me by Skruffs, for once. If IH somehow isn't scum, it will definitely cause me to rethink things, and Skruffs being willing to compromise is encouraging, I think

When did compromises begin to =protown?

I Am willing to vote IH, who I am pretty sure is a townie, if onyl because it will clear Guardian up from his fixation and allow the town to progress. Guardian and Thok were talkign about going over rereads but haven't saisd anything - IH and Elias are hiding out anyways, VitaminR is skulking about...

That cool with you all?

Skruffs this doesn't seem like a frustrated post, it sounds more like a "gain the town's approval" post. You also don't seem to claim Guardian seems townie to you in this post, and it feels more like you think I'm town, but just want Guardian to commit on other things...

[IH]

........um, so what do you think of Skruffs, Guardian?

[IH]

Simenon is a deadline stealer.

I demand it's pushed forward a day so it doesn't hit on the same time as Fire Emblem.

[IH]

I've been thinking over it more and more....

and I think Skruffs is scum.

I know I've said alot of the game I think he's town but his latest action set off major alarm bells thats related to the one sure scumtell I've ever known that is almost ALWAYS a clear indication of scum.

Imapatience for a lynch.

Thok, you should remember that Newbie game, where the newbie scum proclaimed the town needed to come together on a consensus and go ahead and vote someone. This is related to it. That Skruffs was getting impatient, and went ahead and voted me to "clear this up".

Whose his scumbuddy? If Skruffs comes up scum, I would say it's VitR or Tony, tbh.

Reasoning? Well Skruffs attacking VitR could be seen two different ways. I'm kind of leaning toward VitR being town if Skruffs is scum by the fact he's proclaimed he's scum, and when it didn't catch on, moved to me. That doesn't really seem like bussing to me.

Tony, for his vote, and then unvote of Skruffs a little bit.

It's entirely possible that I'm not understanding something, and basing my judgement off of memory and voting BTW. Sorry if that seems lazy. It is. I did at least skim the last few pages before making this post.

unvote, vote:Skruffs

[IH]

If I turn up town, does that make vitr scum? If so, then lynching you equates to guardian being of the opposite alignment too. Curious why you are giving opinions of people if I turn up scum. Very curious.

Skruffs, I already said I'm not sure about VitR being scum, because you jumping off of him and onto me.

If you are scum Skruffs, it actually makes Guardian protown I think. If Skruffs were to come up town I would suspect that Guardian were scum, just from the way Guardian has repeatedly said Skruffs was scum, and then shied away when demanding to provide reasons.

When I say impatience for a lynch, I don't necessarily mean someone pushing for a lynch, but someone pressuring for

a

lynch to happen. Just because I bandwagoned didn't necessarily mean I was eager for those lynches to go through, as a bandwagoning strategy is different.

I think I would find Skruffs and VitR on opposing sides of alignment as well, but this is less sure, especially since the strategy of Skruffs attacking VitR could easily be one of bussing, and letting off a buddy for a different lynch.

I'm immensely unsure of Thok, and I would say Tony is a, for better word, alternative buddy. He could be anyones buddy.

I am of the opinion that Elias is town.

So in a slightly easier format to understand...

Skruffs=Scum

Guardian-Town
VitR-Possible scum
Tony-Possible Scum
Elias-town
Thok-unkown

Skruffs=Town

Guardian-scum
VitR-more possibly scum
tony-chance of scum
elias-town
Thok-unknown

I understand this probably creates dilemmas, probably false, but this is what I'm basing my judgement off of for scum and their pairs.

[IH]

How about your thoughts on people assuming I was scum, and assuming I was town.

[IH]

<3 Skruffs.

[IH]

So how does me being scum make you auto town?

What if I'm town? Also your statements about "If IH is town, and it's a very very slim if" are obnoxious and make me sick. They were kinda witty the first time. The next 40 weren't.

[IH]

Possible Skruffs and Guardian PBP.

Possible.

If I find the initiative to I may do PBPs on all players going from

Skruffs
Guardian
VitR
Tony
Thok
Elias

[IH]

(strangle Guardian)

tia

[IH]

No, you post or the game dies. I would have been tempted to just replace you myself.