Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[Romanus]

/in

[Romanus]

Vote: Drain Bead

For starting a wagon on an easy target.

[Romanus]

I'm still around and will catch up and post sometime this weekend, if not tonight

[Romanus]

Battle Mage's post #112 comes off as very scummy to me. He manages to accuse and defend just about everyone in that post. It is a typical "scum covering their bases" type of post.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Battle Mage

The scum pairing of John and Occult because of that post 62 is a little ridiculous in my opinion. And to call it the "scummiest" post thus far is quite a stretch. It is also a very safe post to criticize because it really has little to do with the game itself. Also, that early in the game, I severely doubt that scum would buddy up like that.

[Romanus]

Battle Mage, dodging the actual issue is also very scummy.

Am I putting a lot onto just one of your posts? Well, not any more, but yes I was. And am I just dismissing a post I find innocent enough? Yes, and that is my prerogative.

Yes, your opening post, where you comment on your reread, is, in fact, scummy, in my opinion.

Also, I don't find throwing my vote on a scummy player as throwing it away.

Your irrational and defensive post only makes me think worse of you.

I'll be keeping my vote on you for the time being. At least until you address the actual issues instead of skirting them.

[Romanus]

He manages to accuse and defend just about everyone in that post. It is a typical "scum covering their bases" type of post.

Call me crazy, but this looks fairly specific. Especially when applied to:

I don’t like IH’s post 31, as it looks like he is just going along with VR-something I wouldn’t expect protown IH to do. In fact I also agree with what VR said, but I didn’t like IH’s tone which sounded rather like “yeah whatever you say VR”. On the other hand, his post 34 is informative and helpful. He hasn’t posted a great deal, although I expect some posts of his were lost.

Taking both sides on IH

Didn’t like Aimee’s post 48. she was just repeating what had previously been said, in an attempt to make it look like she was doing something useful. On the other hand, she is the first person I have seen to do a detailed analysis of the players.

Again taking both sides on a player.

You can read the rest on your own. I am not claiming that his analysis is unfair or whatever. It just strikes me as scummy because of the stance or dual stance he takes on some people. Doesn't want to really attack a certain person, but doesn't want to ignore them either.

I thought I was rather clear in my post. I'm not one to do full analysis with quotes and all that crap, and I rarely read quotes in other people's posts. I've read the game, I know what people said. In some instances, for clarity's sake it is needed, but it was less than 20 posts away.

Still would like an explanation from Battle Mage, but since he now has support, which is suspicious to me as well, defending a player like that is always somewhat scummy. Especially since there was a definite personal attack aimed at me by another player on behalf of another player.

Hope I am not the only one who sees this. Also, it happened to be buried in an extremely long post, where it could get overlooked.

[Romanus]

I'm not doing a summary of the game, for that is useless. There is no such thing as an unbiased summary, and if there was such a thing, why would you even bother posting it. I guess I did have some stuff destroyed, but I really don't care.

Also, I fail to see how spreading out a large net is less scummy. Either way, concentrated or spread out attacks can be good strategy.

What worries me more than anything is that Battle Mage and Skruffs are in complete agreement with everything. I severely doubt you are both scum, that would be too easy and stupid, but I am almost willing to bet one of you is being taken for a ride.

My points are very clear, if you fail to see them, fine, nothing I can do about that. Not even wanting to see them is scummy.

[Romanus]

John and OCcult are now no longer friends, since it was pointed out hte apparent relationship between them. Very interesting.

Very interesting indeed.

[Romanus]

IH's post looks very bad for Occult and John. John's FOS on IH makes John look even worse.

I don't like Battle Mage acting like his vote on me was completely innocent and not OMGUS.

I am sorry for my absence from the game, though, I was not lurking, since I wasn't reading and deciding not to post, I just couldn't even read. Real life is kicking my tail, but this shouldn't be a problem again.

Is Occult at -1?

[Romanus]

I am currently leaning towards the feeling that Occult is town. However, I do not feel strongly enough about it to actually defend him or anything. I see all the points people have made, etc, etc, etc, and I can't deny that do have a good foundation. I do not believe it adds up to Occult being scum.

As my vote reflects, I am most suspicious of Battle Mage, and continue to be.

Just to make sure my stances are clear at this point.

[Romanus]

For the record, I really don't

not

like you Skruffs, or rather the way in which you are playing this game. However, I have come to be able to distinguish bad play, unlikable play, and scummy play. You have not yet risen to scummy play, at least not yet.

I say this because sometimes, and even often, the town will get frustrated with a player due to their "style," which winds up with this person getting lynched even though they are town. It is an easy lynch for the scum because they have the same excuse as everyone else, "the game is better off without them," even though there is no info to be gained from their lynch.

I know this is a bit of an aside, and is as much for my own benefit and remembering these lessons for myself as it is for the rest of the town.

I still think BM is scum

we <3 skruffs

[Romanus]

BM-- Still trying to buddy up, huh?

[Romanus]

WHen I'm atownie, day one, there is nothing wrong in drawing attention to myself to keep a power role from claiming. Let the scum hang themselves with a quick lynch.

Ummmm, When you're a townie? When? Not, I am a townie, therefore?

Hate to nitpick semantics and all but, no wait, actually, I love to nitpick about semantics.

Oh, and BM -- is there any reason for you to think I am scum, other than the fact that I am voting for you?

[Romanus]

So, if we just quick lynched him and didn't question anyone else, what would we have to go on for tomorrow?

It is day one, we have a deadline and are on page 12. What the hell is this about quicklynch??!!??!

And the stupidity of saying that the large number of people on a wagon means that someone is town is just incredible. If that were the case, there would be no way scum would ever get lynched.

Also, there is a huge, huge, ginormous difference between a bandwagon, even a bandwagon at -1 and a lynch. Furthermore, there is no better evidence against someone than their vote. So, to say that quicklynching someone doesn't yield info is just as ridiculous as the stupidity mentioned above.

I'm thinking Occult is town more and more these days.

FOS: TonyMoonshine

[Romanus]

I take it back, I like Skruffs.

Which actually makes me believe him to be more scummy. Go figure.

Don't worry Skruffs, that is not an FOS or anything.

[Romanus]

Skruffs, I'm ok with your reasoning for voting John, but personally, I'm just not feeling it. Closer to deadline, I might.

What I don't like is VitR jumping on board with that pretty lame reason. Not so much scummy as lazy.

I'm going to hold on to my Battle Mage vote. He is still the scummiest player in my eyes, but I also realize the need for a solid choice for a lynch, and I will not hold that up if we near a deadline.

Occult appears to have gotten off easy from his wagon, and an interpretation of those events will be very necessary as soon as we get a little more info, like from a lynch. I know that wagons just die sometimes, but the ins and outs need to be looked at.

[Romanus]

Just for the record, I don't believe in metagaming at all. I will not denounce anyone for stating their opinions on people's play compared to other games, but it will be of no consequence to me and will be ignored.

Secondly, I would highly recommend that others do the same. Every game is different, and people's play will differ dramatically from game to game. Heck, no two games are even remotely close to each other, even if the set-ups are the same.

[Romanus]

I'm tending to agree with IH on this one.

However, it also looks like it could be a "six of one, half a dozen of the other"-type situation.

In order to put my money where my mouth is I am going to throw my vote that way.

Unvote
Vote: Occult

[Romanus]

Of course, no doubt, there is scum on this Occult wagon no matter if he is scum or town.

I believe he will come up town. Moving back to him for the lynch has become too easy.

The only person that I really wish to lynch is Battle Mage (who is now replacing). The reason for wanting his lynch is that I believe he is scum.

Occult will get us some reads, but now I am wondering how useful some of those reads will be.

Just my thoughts

[Romanus]

I renew my attack

Vote: Battle Mage

[Romanus]

And Tony, you are doing even less investigating with your OMGUS.

Please do better than that.

When will people realize that retaliating with a vote only makes you look more scummy.

[Romanus]

I don't like this Yogurt Bandit wagon at all. The only argument I have really seen, and repeatedly is that John should have been lynched yesterday, or yesterday we knew he should be lynched today, so, let's lynch him.

The problem with following a script as IH's post was described as, is that it is really easy for scum to just go along with the plan. I am not so much condemning IH for having the plan, as I am pointing the finger at people who are simply parroting IH to get an easy Yogurt lynch.

Guardian sort of did this at first, but then switched his vote to IH. This leads me to two possibilities. Either Guardian is scum that was bussing his scumpartner, but then decided to try and save him, or he is really a townie that is really looking for scum, but not afraid to throw his vote around. So, I am not suspicious of Yogurt now.

UNVOTE

[Romanus]

IH -- I sort of see a link between you and Vitr, but I think it stems from you two taking a similar stance from the beginning of the game. From there it just kind of feels like it, but I think it is just because you were connected in the beginning.

Trying to make a case out of it, by not making any case for it is ridiculous and a tad scummy. But if he says he doesn't have time, I have to take that at face value.

Quite honestly I need to do a reread and figure this game out. No one seems to be standing out. Every case seems really forced. Of course, that just may be the nature of this sort of game.

[Romanus]

Guardian sort of did this at first, but then switched his vote to IH. This leads me to two possibilities. Either Guardian is scum that was bussing his scumpartner, but then decided to try and save him, or he is really a townie that is really looking for scum, but not afraid to throw his vote around.

You're right, I never said a word about why I unvoted you, especially right before I did so.

I would think that a rational person would look at the argument above the unvote and might put them together. My bad

Guardian, you are starting to flail about a bit. Casting suspicion everywhere. This is the most scummy behavior there is in my opinion. Of course, it could just be that your flail has struck me.

[Romanus]

2) Romanus is looking more and more scummy indeed. His post about the IH thing is interesting because he remembers IH targeting John when he in fact is targeting Tony.

IH -- I sort of see a link between you and Vitr, but I think it stems from you two taking a similar stance from the beginning of the game. From there it just kind of feels like it, but I think it is just because you were connected in the beginning.

Trying to make a case out of it, by not making any case for it is ridiculous and a tad scummy. But if he says he doesn't have time, I have to take that at face value.

I don't see what Guardian is talking about.

[Romanus]

And Aimee, why can't IH be the target for today? See this is the type of stuff that makes games easy for scum.

If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't.

[rant]This post reeks of scumminess. You don't have to choose between John and IH. You have the whole town to pick from, but being that if you are scum you want to push some sort of wagon, then yeah, you do have to pick one.

Again, why isn't IH the target for today. Saying crap like this may make you look wise in some people's eyes, but this crap does not impress me, especially when their are people who think IH is the target for today. Anybody and everybody should be considered a target, at all times, especially in this game.

I'll go ahead and supply a reason for you not voting YogurtBandit: He is going to claim he is a townie. You ask no direct question of him, leaving it to him to come up with something out of the blue that you are just going to take apart anyway and use as just more evidence of his scumminess and the rightness of him being the play for today.

No sir, I do not like that post one bit. It is lurking in plain sight at best, and just scummy as hell at the worst. Probably thought it would fly right under the radar, but sorry, we are way to close to a deadline for crap posts like that.

You said something between Jack and squat with that post.[/rant]

Oh and

Vote Aimee

[Romanus]

Ok, I've done a reread, as I thought it was necessary this close to deadline. The only scummy thing I see from Aimee is her last post, which does have a context that makes it a whole lot less scummy. That one post just set off all my alarms. I still want to look at Aimee, but getting close to deadline she is not the play.

UNVOTE; FOS: Aimee

It is clear to me who the play is, again, after a reread. But especially the last few posts by him, especially

Someone please tell me how Johns actions are half of the reasons of my votings. I am not John! Its not like he said " Im John and Im Mafia." No!Yeah, you can lay suspicon on him, but whoever voted me because of him, better give me a good explanation that doesnt include him.Im serious, Proably 3 of the 4 votes are JOHNS votes! I can see getting Lynched because of me, but of John? No.

Also Aimee, Stop refering to me as John. Call me Yogurt Bandit. Or Yb. But not John.

Prod: mustafa15
Prod: VitaminR

What I especially love about this post is the end where he asks for prods. This is a very subtle hint to everyone that there are lurkers out there, lurkers that are on his wagon. I have no problem with them lurking. They have made their decision. It is up to each individual to make up his own mind. They have gotten out of the way, making sure YB is the target. YB is not being helpful to the town in his rants. He is trying every thing he can to get the attention off of him. There is no analysis of those on the wagon, making sure that the town knows what is going on with this "mislynch." Think about it this way: Scum don't want us townies looking at voting records and reasons for voting. Scum want you on the here and now, not the record people leave behind, which is the best evidence. YB is all about the here and now. To the point of wanting everyone to forget that his character was played by John, very scumily according to a good number of people in this town.

The fact is that John did act very scummy. I'm still not sure how Occult got in over John when looking at the reread. I understand that I didn't like this wagon a page or two ago, but I have to say, I really like it right now.

Vote: YogurtBandit

That puts him at -2 I believe. 12 alive 7 to lynch, mine being the 5th

[Romanus]

So Aimee, you are willing to vote someone, but not if it has consequences like a lynch, that is unless of course the lynch is eminent and you really can't be blamed for it.

Or, you want your scum partner to have every possible chance to beat this wagon before you decide to bus him.

Can I start voting for tomorrow yet?

[Romanus]

Especially if he is your scum partner.

Or if you know they will come up town and you will have proximity to the lynch.

How about this: I will unvote and you can put him at -2, then I will put him at -1 and then someone drop the hammer.

[Romanus]

couple of things

#1 --

MOD

I am voting for YogurtBandit, not Aimee. The post was on the bottom of the last page, so you might have missed it.

You have voted YB since the last vote count.

#2 -- Once this gets corrected, YB will be at lynch -1. This is completely my bad. I looked at the front page wrong. So, Aimee, I owe you a bit of an apology, except that you did know that yours would have been the hammer vote.

#3 --

MOD

What exactly are the deadline rules. I looked and didn't see them.

The leader in votes will be lynched. If it is tied for leader, then the first leader that appears on the vote count will be lynched.

There is an interesting point brought up by Skruffs that I had yet to consider. Not sure what the whole thing means, but I'm pretty sure there is going to be a penalty for going to deadline without a lynch.

I think my case against YB has been spelled out and proximate enough to not have to repost it.

To sum up in as metaphorical a sense as I can muster: YB is scum because his death rattle sounds extremely scummy rather than townie

[Romanus]

Guardian is giving Mustafa a pass, and has no good reason to do so, even he can't explain it. I can think of at least one good reason, can you?

[Romanus]

I will be gone for the weekend and won't post till Sunday night or Monday afternoon.

[Romanus]

Aimee is my number one right now. I agree that there is a case against IH, but I just don't like it.

I was pretty convinced of Guardian when he first replaced in, but he is starting to become more and more suspicious to me. FOS: Guardian.

I really think that Aimee is scum. Her behavior at the end of yesterday was just too much. The only point in her favor is that scum would have probably bussed and would love to take credit for the hammer. However, her reticence could be seen as town-like. In other words, the fact that she didn't drop the hammer is really a null tell for me. The contents of her posts, on the other hand, is what is really driving me. It isn't so much that she didn't want to vote for YB, but the reasons she gave. Now knowing that YB was scum makes me suspect her even more. The fact that Guardian is charging against IH and moving away from Aimee makes a lot of sense to me as well: Aimee and Guardian being scum, IH being town.

not that Aimee is going to answer this for quite some time, the town at least can comment on it

Vote: Aimee

[Romanus]

But I would like to go back and see who did the most to push the wagon from john onto occult day one.

Everyone needs to take a look at this. This is where we will find scum. My hat's off to you Skruffs for pointing this out. As of this moment, with the info we have from the two lynches, Day one and people's behavior toward the occult lynch is critical. Yes, cases need to be made, but everyone needs to do their own reread of this event.

[Romanus]

This whole experienced/inexperienced thing = Red Herring

[Romanus]

I'm going to concentrate on page two, where the whole John controversy was in it's infancy.

VitR is the first to put pressure on John for his pregame question. This in my mind all but clears VitR. No need to put pressure on a scumbuddy when no one else has.

Tony then says that it is a good catch, but doesn't vote, doesn't even FOS. IH also says it's a good catch by VitR, but then calls Tony on this lack of official stance on John. This could already be seen as a way of trying to move the attention off of John and onto Tony, or just muddy the water.

Tony defends his non-vote on John by saying he doesn't want to be vote-happy. (someone should check to see if this is really the case in the rest of the game)

Occult then FOS's John and says it is a slip, but all we have right now, but not lynchable just yet. NB: Occult is known town now.

IH then jumps on Tony yet again for his not wanting to vote by giving a long explanation on the ins and outs of this nightless game and how mislynches aren't really that bad etc etc. The whole point to me seems to be that IH is trying to convince Tony that there is no reason not to be vote-happy. This is the first post since the incident was brought up that has absolutely nothing to do with John whatsoever. It is a very protown post in that it spells out a lot of things about the game itself, a lot of theory. Again, this looks like muddying the water. In IH's defense, this post could appear as though he is advocating a quicklynch on John, but saying that quicklynching John is ok also feels like IH is inherently saying John is town, quicklynches don't really happen to scum, and if they do, I don't believe they are referred to as quicklynches.

Mustafa then random votes and defends John. A little weird, but it is still early in the game, so not completely off. Could be seen as deflecting away from John.

John then defends himself

Vit R responds to John, keeps the pressure on him.

Tony quotes IH's long post on "nightless theory" and FOS's John. Can't fault Tony for responding to such a long post by IH that was directed at him. Could be seen as coaching or buddying or something like that, not very clear at this point though.

John gets defensive and FOS's VitR. He then explains his FOS. VitR and John go back and forth, making good points and settling down a bit. Each makes concessions and moves on. This further clears VitR in my mind.

Blahgo comes in and votes John with nothing else in the post. Admittedly, I don't like this. It is opportunistic and not pro-town. However, I have never really like the way blahgo has played any of his games.

Drain Bead unvotes and asks about suspicion and quicklynches and generally what IH has already laid out. Promises a vote on John as soon as someone answers his question that was already answered before he asked it.

Occult answers and says the fast wagon on John is suspicious because we are only on page two. Votes for blahgo, and FOS's IH and VitR.

Elias comes forward and gives his .02 about Occult's comments, defends John saying that he had similar questions at the beginning of the game like John did. Is not comfortable with lynching John just yet, but is ok with the wagon. Unvotes and FOS's Blahgo for his vote only post.

Aimee then jumps on the Blahgo thing and re-echoes what others have asked Blahgo and FOS's him as well.

The last post of the page has John trying desperately to deflect attention off of himself by going after Drain Bead over some semantics.

Impressions:

VitR is town. I will be shocked if he comes up scum.
I do not like IH's play on this page. It looks like deflection by way of a pro-town post.

The only post by Aimee only confirms my position on her, but admittedly, I am reading a lot into it.

Not much on Elias

Blahgo, well, is just being blahgo.

There seems to be something up between Tony and IH. I don't know that it is due to alignment or what, but something to keep an eye on.

[Romanus]

On Elias' points against me. I believe that I give very strong reasons behind every move that I make. No, this does not mean that I am not doing what Elias proposes, but one point he did bring up that I believe is a good point in my favor. I did encourage the entire town to go back and look at the greatest piece of information we have, the move from John to Occult on day 1. I have nothing to hide here. I've stated this somewhere, maybe here, don't remember, but scum do not wish people to look back at records and behavior. I believe I have been rather transparent and have been actively hunting scum.

The reason I dropped the case on BM/Guardian is because of his posts, which BM had failed to do, and was no small part of my suspicion. Also, I believe I spell out why I left Guardian. The other point was that it wasn't helping the town. I haven't completely left Guardian as a suspect, but it is clear that the town does not find him highly suspect. I will have to do the work to build a case against him. In the meantime I think I have found more fruitful ground, that is, actual scummy behavior. From my last post, you can see that my suspicions of IH have gone way up. I am not letting Aimee of the hook until she returns, and this is why my vote stays on Aimee, but I am really good with an IH lynch right now.

What I am starting to see in this game is that every death, every one, has a record. If someone died, it is because people voted for them. This gives the town a huge advantage. We must, then, be very aware of everyone's stance on every lynch. Of course, now the scum know this as well and will be more careful, but as things get smaller, this will be incredible evidence in the endgame.

[Romanus]

That may be the scummiest post I have ever read in my entire mafiascum career.

[Romanus]

Look at it this way, if you are scum, that is a great strategy. However, for the rest of us townies, that is a very bad idea.

If you don't like the case against Aimee, how about you do that case against IH you've been promising since forever.

Also, I think you are out of your skull about VitR. And I still wouldn't put you in the "likely town" category, quite frankly, and even less so now.

[Romanus]

I'm sorry Guardian, all I am seeing here is people playing a game together. This seems very manufactured and asks us to assume a great deal. The problem here is that this doesn't appear scummy or townie, it just looks like interaction between players.

To me, you appear to be tilting at windmills, which could be scummy. I'm starting to remember why I thought your character was scummy to begin with.

[Romanus]

#1 -- Logic has nothing to do with True or False, so stop using it that way.

#2 -- Something is either logical or not, not "true logic" or "false logic" or whatever

#3 -- The logic is not wrong if it is indeed logic. The problem comes in with the assumptions you have to make before you apply the logic.

Therefore, a case can be completely logical and still be wrong.

#4 -- We really aren't dealing with logic here as much as we are dealing with arguments. Arguments can be all sorts of things like contrived, weak, strong, scummy, townie, etc, etc.

Guardian, appealing to my emotions about how crappy your arguments are just because it took you hours upon hours to manufacture them is scummy.

Is it my fault that you are scum taking hours to manufacture arguments against townies that are immediately dismissed by the town at large? No.

I am no longer leaning to the side of you being a misguided townie, but rather to the side that you are scum.

UNVOTE
Vote: Guardian

Aimee can now wait. You have become top priority.

[Romanus]

First of all, the "rules of logic" were not directed at you, they were directed at everyone. If I was talking to just you, I would have prefaced it with your name, like I did later in the post.

Secondly, I stated that I could see how someone would link IH and VitR in the beginning of the game, but my real point was that there is no real connection. What I was saying is that I felt the connection as well, but upon my reread for that particular connection, that was all I found. You, Guardian, were pushing that connection into a case of both of them being scum, which is just ridiculous.

I have stated again and again that I did not completely let you off the hook, but that I was moving away from you to find scum the town was more interested in.

The reason I dropped the case on BM/Guardian is because of his posts, which BM had failed to do, and was no small part of my suspicion. Also, I believe I spell out why I left Guardian. The other point was that it wasn't helping the town. I haven't completely left Guardian as a suspect, but it is clear that the town does not find him highly suspect. I will have to do the work to build a case against him. In the meantime I think I have found more fruitful ground, that is, actual scummy behavior. From my last post, you can see that my suspicions of IH have gone way up. I am not letting Aimee of the hook until she returns, and this is why my vote stays on Aimee, but I am really good with an IH lynch right now.

Opportunistic? No, now I just have a case to build against you. I think you are scum that pushed his position a little too far. You thought you had the lead on the town, you thought you could guide it, but then you actually tried to manufacture an argument that no one else was seeing, and in doing so you showed your true colors.

In addition, trying to push suspicion back onto me, someone you have not seen fit to suspect the whole game is another rather scummy play. The fact is that you know you've been found out and the only thing you can do is lash out and throw the suspicion right back on the person who has been suspicious of you from the first. To try and even claim that my position on you is something new is just ridiculous, yet again.

Furthermore, if I was just going to be opportunistic scum, why not just go after IH? I could get on in the middle of the wagon, a nice safe place. Hell, I have even set out a bit of an argument against her. Why not keep mining that ground for the easier lynch against IH or even Aimee.

I think you have been trying to steer this lynch toward IH for quite some time, without any argument really. We have been promised one for ages, then, especially when Aimee becomes a target and even equals IH in the votecount, you come up with ridiculous argument about people who actually agree with each other and therefore must be scum.

My scumdar has been pinging on you for quite some time. I left it alone for a while, which turns out to be a good decision, since now, when you felt comfortable, you come up with two or three of the scummiest posts ever, and I mean ever. You want to form a coalition? I may trust one other person enough to do that, but three others, no freakin way. Only a scum would try to endear himself to the town in such a way.

[Romanus]

Well, I did post that page two case, you could respond to that.

[Romanus]

It is pretty clear to me that Guardian is scum and needs a good lynching.

[Romanus]

Guardian, this is a much better case than the linkage.

my opinion:

1. Connection with John -- plausible, but I don't see IH as being that manipulative. I really do see it as scumhunting.

2. Leading the wagon from John to Occult -- factually this is the case. IH did move the wagon, but did get on John the next day. Bussing, possible. Again, I see this as legitimate scumhunting. However, the scum get to trade one for one with townies. So, this is a good early game plan for the scum. I'm not completely persuaded on this point, but factually it is a strike against IH.

3. Trying to lynch people for bad reasons -- Ummmmmm, no.

4. Misleading logic about lives to give -- This is theory. Scum will never actually suggest bad theory, IMO. This is an honest townie opinion, regardless of alignment, you just happen to disagree with the theory. Null tell.

5. Responds by appeasing -- One thing we have to remember in this game is that we are always trying to persuade people of things. Now if this is used to persuade the town to lynch a person who is really scummy, then appeasing is not that bad. However, if the appeasing is really an appeal to emotion, like, oh good someone thinks my idea is a good one, and tries to get people to trust this person so that they will be trusted just to be trusted, then that is a problem. Townies should rely on arguments and evidence, not on how they feel about the person. If you trust because the person is acting pro-town, that is fine, but trusting the person because they give you warm fuzzy sensations, that is not good. In short, town are trying to catch scum, scum are trying to stay alive. I don't see IH as simply trying to endear himself to people to just stay alive.

However, Guardian, this last point speaks exactly to what you did with your little scheme to keep a group of four alive till the end. A townie sees no real value in this. Townies trust arguments and evidence, not each other. Only a scum would try to get people to trust each other and him despite the evidence and arguments. The whole "we'll stick together through this" mentality is very scummy. Scum trust people because they know who their friends are, townies don't have that luxury.

[Romanus]

Guardian, I thought you were going to stop defending Aimee.

Liar.

[Romanus]

I'm with IH on the above post. Guardian is misrepresenting, stretching if not out and out lying about this stuff. Also, there is at least one logical fallacy in there:

1, 5, I say that I note his reluctance to vote John, he initially says this is BS with me having no case against him, and then a few posts later votes John.

Just because someone says you are BSing about having a case does not mean that they can't formulate their own case against someone. Yes, I agree it is a little weird, but you have taken it way out of context.

Guardian -- Is this really the case that you thought would sell itself and wouldn't require an actual PbP by you? The connections case and this case against IH is very flimsy and manufactured. A case should really be transparent, and this one is far from it.

I really want to hear what VitR's stance on all this is, and what kind of case he has against IH.

[Romanus]

I'm with IH on the above post. Guardian is misrepresenting, stretching if not out and out lying about this stuff. Also, there is at least one logical fallacy in there:

1, 5, I say that I note his reluctance to vote John, he initially says this is BS with me having no case against him, and then a few posts later votes John.

Just because someone says you are BSing about having a case does not mean that they can't formulate their own case against someone. Yes, I agree it is a little weird, but you have taken it way out of context.

Guardian -- Is this really the case that you thought would sell itself and wouldn't require an actual PbP by you? The connections case and this case against IH is very flimsy and manufactured. A case should really be transparent, and this one is far from it.

I really want to hear what VitR's stance on all this is, and what kind of case he has against IH.

[Romanus]

It can be very frustrating when a scum tries to direct the town and the town just will not follow.

I reviewed your case, and read up a bit more.

Scum suspects:

Guardian (about as convinced as one can be about him being scum)

Aimee (I'd still like to see this lynch at some point, but Guardian first and then another review of her)

Most townie:

IH
VitR

Everyone else is somewhere in the middle, not setting off my scumdar, but still a good bit of suspicion.

[Romanus]

Only half the town if voting right now. That is sad.

[Romanus]

EBWOP -- Only half the town is voting right now. That is sad.

And it is still sad.

[Romanus]

no

[Romanus]

Or better yet, I refuse to answer questions posed by someone who will not take a stand but continues to question everyone else's.

Let's put Elias as my third scum suspect, right behind Elias.

hey everyone, you want to read something entertaining, go back and just read Elias' last four or five posts. If I have time, which I don't right now, I just might quote them all in a post, or someone else can.

[Romanus]

EBWOP -- That is, put Elias right behind Aimee as my third suspected scum.

[Romanus]

I explained why I thought VitR was town earlier, look it up.

I have never flip-flopped on either Guardian or IH.

Yes I did let the Guardian case go for a while, but I have explained, now for the third time that he was never off of my list.

As for IH, I said you case against her was

better

than that crazy connection case.
The real problem with the connection case is that we really don't have any concrete info on the people you are supposing a connection against. In short, you just go a little to far out on that limb.

Still on IH -- The fact that Guardian is pushing so hard for her lynch, with cases I really don't agree with, paired with the fact that I think Guardian is the scummiest person in this game, equals the fact that I think IH is town. I do realize this could be bussing or distancing, but I don't read it as so.

Even more on IH -- After reading the case and reading selected sections myself, I think IH is acting really pro-town. Further, this is why I asked VitR for the case he has against IH. Since I see VitR as pro-town, and VitR is voting against IH, I want to hear what VitR has to say about all of it.

As for Elias:

If you call all of that taking a stand, then whatever. And feel free to take any tone with me you like. I just see it as a bit cowardly to be taking all these "stands" and yet no vote, at all. Simply defending Aimee and questioning everyone without actually building a case or voting for someone is just great and really helps the town.

And really a lot of this is beside the point since only a little over half of us is really participating in this game.

[Romanus]

Excellent, now we're getting somewhere.

[Romanus]

Furthermore, if you go back and read the posts surrounding my votes, especially on Occult, I am pretty open about why I am doing the things I am doing. Now, you may not like it, but it is there, at least, to be evaluated.

I don't mind direct questions about the stands I took and my explanations. Maybe something is unclear. However, just general questions, like, "why?" makes me feel like we are going backwards. I am not going to restate my reasons, when, if you really cared, you could go back and actually read them. You want to quote me and then ask a question to further your understanding, or even state the problem you are having with it, then I will be happy to address it.

I don't know, Elias, maybe the real problem I had with the last like 4 posts including your last question for me that I gave the no to, was that they came off as extremely passive. And this passivity comes off as scummy to me. If that makes sense, I could try to describe it better later, but that's how I'll put it for now.

I guess this passivity also explains why I jumped over Aimee and Guardian. I think the posts I had the most trouble with from them both were the ones that I found extremely passive. Guardian's team up idea kinda looks forward thinking, but really it is a way to go into a passive mode. Also, Aimee's not going after John/YB, came off as really scummy/passive, as well.

On the other hand, I see all that IH did as very active gameplay. Maybe he made some wrong decisions and reads, but all active and searching. I don't mean hastily or with speed, but always moving forward and seeing the benefits of getting almost any lynch. I mean, if we hadn't lynched occult then John, we wouldn't have nearly as much to go on. That is some real solid info on two lynches, and in a game where lynch information is gold. And IH put it, we have lives to give to the scum, mainly, I think, because they have to actually fight to get "bad" lynches and not just stay alive. I didn't then, nor now, and especially now, see the occult lynch as a bad lynch. And everyone, including myself, who moved off of John and onto occult, have to answer for it. We also have to answer for what our real motives for then lynching John were.


I hope people who were interested really did read that, and maybe more than once. Others, who really don't have a problem or are less interested in me, can just bypass this really. But it is on record for posterity.

[Romanus]

Elias makes a good point about Tony.

Just making a note.

[Romanus]

It is not a contradiction to point out a good point, no matter who says it. It isn't like I know who the scum are.


Maybe you do?

[Romanus]

That's what I said

[Romanus]

Guys, I am going to go ahead and say that deadlines are not always bad for the town. Hey I have one for instance, yesterday. If there had not been a deadline, Aimee would have probably never hammered John and John may have survived that ordeal.

In that particular case, the deadline worked for the town.

These absolute statements are the things that scum love because they can always thwart that sort of thing.

Just so everyone knows, if it comes down to it, and it looks like it might, I will drop the hammer on Aimee. She is number 2 on my list of scum and will be only a little less pleased to see her strung up over Guardian.

[Romanus]

it is still indicative, as is this last post, of a very defensive stance.

However, I have found that townies get just as defensive as any scum, and sometimes more so. Defending oneself is never a scumtell. Being sure to try and avoid all possible suspicion does look scummy, but I'm not sold on how scummy it really is.

[Romanus]

Look, I wish to catch scum, and just because I think a person is probably scum does not mean I need to back every reason or argument that comes up. To the contrary, spotting ridiculous arguments, no matter who they are against, is just the right thing to do, or something like that.

[Romanus]

Good answer

[Romanus]

Townies are never sure of anything, that is until after the fact.

[Romanus]

Come on, let's not take this too seriously now. We're just having fun. I mean, these games are supposed to be fun, right?

You know what is really fun? Catching scum.

And I think Guardian is scum.

[Romanus]

I have made a case on you that has nothing to do with the IH thing. I know you want to forget it, but I will not let go of the fact that you tried to cruise to an endgame situation without much debate. By far the scummiest idea I have ever heard of.

[Romanus]

I have also explained why I believe VitR is innocent.

Also, it isn't like I wasn't going after you before your great idea. I've been commenting on your scumminess throughout the game. I know you have to pretend like I don't have a case, but it is there for anyone to see, so whatever.

[Romanus]

Also, what you are doing is called a straw man.

You take something that is really beside the point. That is, your IH case, and said that I can't prove you are scum from the holes in that case.

Guess what? You're right, I can't, nor have a tried to. It is just one more piece of evidence.

I believe the other cases are better, especially the "let's make a club" idea. I still can't help but see this as completely anti-town.

[Romanus]

Wanting to lynch certain people is not the same as forming a club. His road map is about him and him alone, the people that he wishes to lynch in the order he wishes to lynch them. Almost everyone puts up lists of likely scum, which could be seen, and actually is, the same thing. You, however, have come up with a scheme by which to suspend the game and get three other players into a endgame situation. Your idea is to cut off any discussion, ignore any amount of info we may get along the way and speed to the finish.

VitR simply stated who he wanted lynched. This is almost inherently states that it will change as things develop, as your plan does not allow.

VitR's list = a townie letting people know where he stands on certain people, especially scum

Guardian's list = scum trying to get into an endgame situation with as little info as possible.

[Romanus]

I know how scummy this looks, but in order to get this thing moving I am going with a person I would less like lynched than Guardian, but nevertheless think is scum.

UNVOTE
Vote: Aimee

[Romanus]

Re-read. In progress.

Obv scum

[Romanus]

In my defense, I did wind up answering the questions Elias posed, even if I did refuse at first. As my sig suggests, and if you read any of my games, I am a shit stirrer. I do not believe this behavior is scummy. You may not like it, but that doesn't make it scummy, and in fact it leads to discussion. If it gets me lynched, then that is ok because people wind up taking pretty stolid and well defined positions on me and therefore makes my deaths more easily interpreted, or at least you know where people are on me. Just look, everyone has a fairly strong position on me. I'm fine with that. Learn their or my alignment and you have good info

That is what I call pro-town play. However, not too many people like it. I think it is effective, and that is all I really think is important.

[Romanus]

Vote: Guardian

His sureness about Aimee only screams all the more loudly to me that he is scum.

[Romanus]

Elias, it isn't as if that is the only piece of evidence I have presented or used to come to my conclusion. Just one more piece to the puzzle that makes me believe that he is scum.

Hey, I was wrong about Aimee, but am more convinced of Guardian than I was about Aimee, but I did think Aimee was scum. I just can't get over the things that Guardian has said up to this point.

[Romanus]

I have given reasons for everyone I have thought was scum. You don't like them, oh well. I may have started the Aimee wagon, but I certainly wasn't the only one on it.

Yes, I jumped off because I wanted Guardian lynched. I also got back onto Aimee for the sake of this game, which was dying. That isn't to say I didn't think Aimee was scum, I did, and was wrong.

[Romanus]

This was my whole point on Guardian pretty much allowing an Aimee lynch while the whole time defending her. Guarding knew she was town, knew she would be lynched, knew I was leading the charge, didn't want to actually stop the lynch, wanted to set up another bad lynch the next day, and look as townie as possible by defending the person he knew would come up town.

Guardian, your actions have been way too sure. It is as if you know exactly what is going on. I know this is somewhat your style, but there is something else going on, that being, you are scum

[Romanus]

And now you cast doubt over you new accuser by going after his vote hopping, which is a null tell. Townies are not calculating with their votes up until the time they know it could mean a lynch. Scum tend to be more careful so as not to attract attention. Vote hopping is a great way for scum to cast doubt and build a case of scumminess on a townie for no good reason. Vote hopping is not a bad thing, nor a scummy thing.

I know their will be disagreement about vote hopping, but please just see it in this particular case and how Guardian is using it take the focus off of himself and put it on his accuser.

[Romanus]

Let's please lynch IH, or Skruffs or Romanus, or at least someone we're not sure about. In my view, Elias me Aimee and Occult were all very likely town. Yet, this town has managed to lynch half of those people. Let's not make it three, please, thanks....

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read.

Did you just say that two dead confirmed townies are very likely town?

and please, thanks? Appeal to emotion anyone?

[Romanus]

Why is Guardian still alive?

[Romanus]

Guardian, the fact that you think the only case against you are the two you pointed out, is what is ridiculous. You don't have an answer for the others because they are the truth and you can't wiggle out of it.

I am happy to lynch Guardian, but really hate deadline lynches.

[Romanus]

you're up for lynch because you're scum, Guardian.

I'm sorry this ticks you off.

[Romanus]

I direct you to post 579, which was an intense study of a particular page that I found very telling, nobody else gave a crap about it. I will form my own opinions and refuse to shove my opinions down peoples throats. I have been consistent on Guardian but have not restated it at every turn.

And I see my waffling on Occult as a sign that it was early and every post was significant. Things went back and forth there and I was honest with my opinions as they changed. I let the town know what I was thinking, which is what I have been doing all game. You think I'm pushing the Guardian plan too far, but this has never been the sole or even most important reason for my vote and suspicion of Guardian.

[Romanus]

If you filter for just my posts then my arguments against you are posts:

76
54
47
41
40
39

[Romanus]

I hate to play the WIFOM card, but my voting record only stinks if you think that I actually knew their affiliation, which you did when you read it, but I didn't.

[Romanus]

I've got my eye on Thok as well, he came in very aggressively. As it would be rather OMGUS for me to make too much of it, I'm not going to. Actually, I am quite glad we have another active player in the game now as this game was in danger of stalling.

I really don't care how scummy this looks, and I know it will, but whatever:

Is it possible that we can get a compromise lynch on Mustafa?

I really refuse to vote for IH, for I feel his is town. Obviously we are at an impasse with Guardian and it doesn't look like we will have the votes for his lynch and I really don't want to see a deadline lynch as we get less info from that. We also wound up mislynching because of a deadline lynch.

I am not sold on a Mustafa lynch, but will be going back to see how I really feel about it. I do admit that I have been rather short-sighted and single minded about Guardian, but I do think he is scum, but I also know there are more out there.

[Romanus]

In defense of my dropping the BM issue when he was replaced by Guardian:

BM is a notoriously scummy looking townie. I really wanted to give Guardian a chance. He came in and really put some things to rest for me. However, it wasn't all that long before he did some things I found really scummy. The cultish thing he wanted to set up looked to me like a really scummy play. His recent very detailed posts come off to me like very pro-town, which gets WIFOM really easy. However, the contents of the posts I don't think represent anything different from what he has been saying from the beginning. I would think that unbiased thinking would not say that I was looking town-like, but that he was sure I would start looking scummier. Probably due to the fact that I am attacking him.

Overall, not impressed and am still sticking with this lynch.