Open 19 - Nightless (Over?) before 430

[VitaminR]

/in

[VitaminR]

Do we have to wait for TonyMoonshine?

[VitaminR]

I don't see the harm in it.

Plus, I've already caught scum. I want to vote.

[VitaminR]

Vote: John

He's scum.

[VitaminR]

'kay, here is my reason:

Just to make sure, Nightless does not allow NKs right? its all death by lynch?

This shows concern with scum powers. Town powers don't change in this set-up.

[VitaminR]

Scum is just more likely to wonder about that than town. It is a perfectly valid question, though.

The fact that it was pre-game doesn't matter.

[VitaminR]

It's a valid question, but you're more likely to be scum for it. Hence the vote.

The fact that it was pre-game doesn't change your awareness of your alignment.

[VitaminR]

Well yeah, I never said it was a very reliable determiner of alignment.

[VitaminR]

Unvote: John,
Vote: mustafa15

Occult, bandwagons are just a way to make people come out of the woodwork. I don't see how you can FOS me for starting one. It was pretty valuable as I see it.

I also don't like how you're almost assuming John to be town.

Reasons for my vote:
1) His first post:

Random vote: Drain Bead

I think John was just making sure that he understood the basic concept of the game. I agree that it makes him slightly more suspicious than everyone else, but it doesn't warrant a bandwagon quite yet.

This was when the bandwagon had just started. I feel you're being overly non-committal by still random voting here. There was enough to comment on.

2) Jumping on blahgo, which I think is too easy.

3) Admitting to being scum.

[VitaminR]

Oh, and a quicklynch is less suspicious in Nightless because the lynch is the only place we can get information, but it's also more important to avoid if possible because of exactly of that. Quicklynching minimises the amount of interaction we can study later.

It's important to make a distinction between quicklynching and a quick bandwagon, though.

[VitaminR]

1. How am I being non-committal? I clearly stated my thoughts on the potential lynch of John.

I didn't mean in terms of the John wagon. I mean in terms of the people you do find suspicious. A random vote serves no more purpose if discussion has already been created. It is then just a way of avoiding the discussion.

2. How was my vote on blahgo more suspicious than anyone elses vote/fos? You're pretty much voting me because I was the last one to say I found blahgo suspicious? And keep in mind that there are now 2 votes on blahgo. It's not like I put him at lynch-1, or 2, or 3. He's at lynch-5 now, not the most dangerous place to be.

It wasn't any more suspicious. Did I say so?

3. I'm going to assume this isn't serious.

It's serious. A townie has no advantage in jokily claiming scum. Scum, however, can think they'll look pro-town with the WIFOMy nature of it.

[VitaminR]

Here. Post later.

[VitaminR]

I think we should give NaR's replacement a clean slate, I think NaR might have just been messing with us.

I dont like this post. NAR was scummy, and I dont think he was messing with us. If he was just messing with us he wouldnt of replaced out (I know, ive played in game where he just messes with players).
So yeah, I still think NAR was scum, so theres no reason that his replacement should get to be cleared. I think that perhaps you posted this because you were NAR's scumbuddy. its feasible, youre one of the few players that he didnt vote day 1.

I really like mustafa's post. now a ranger has a record of being unreliable, irrational and generally trying to screw over the town.

Also, the people who votehop blatantly are not necessarily scum. Moving your vote freely is somewhat advantageous to scum, but if that is quickly lost if you do it too openly. No one is going to join you in your vote and people will suspect you for it.

I don't like the jump on now a ranger at all.

I'm going to vote Occult. He seems incredibly content to push an easy now a ranger wagon, but when it came to the John wagon early on (which had a substantial amount of content for an early wagon) he was very cautious and quick to point out the danger of quicklynching.

I feel you're applying a double standard and I don't like how you're already primed to attack now a ranger's replacement.

I think John and Occult are scum and I would really like to see one of them dead today.

Unvote: John,
Vote: Occult

[VitaminR]

1) Ive played in several games with NAR, and I'm used to his style. It seems to me he was trying to play this game seriously. Plus he was close to being banned for his previous behavior, so he has to keep pretty much in line. So i think he not just messing with us. (he probably wouldve claimed something wierd if he was messing with us, rather than ask for a replacement, from my experience with him).

He is still a rather... unconventional player.

In addition, I think asking for a replacement when there's a lot of pressure on you is suspicious on its own.

I don't think now a ranger is that obvious.

2) His votehopping was not the only thing that made him suspicious. After his votehopping he lied about my play, and then tried to build a case against me based on his own lies. He went as far as to vote me. If thats not scummy, I dont know what is.

Having bad reasons for a vote is not necessarily indicative of scum, but I'd like to hear more about this. I missed it at the time. Could you outline what happened?

3) I never said that we should immediately jump on NAR. But I find it suspicious that Mustafa thinks we should completely disregard the behavior of NAR, as it does provide us insight unto his role, and obviously the role of his replacement.

If nar and mustafa are scum together, I doubt mustafa would have been that obvious. It makes me inclined to think of mustafa as town, for limiting the reasons he can use to justify his votes.

[VitaminR]

That reads more like stupidity than scumminess. I'll grant you that it is somewhat scummy, but it is not the hard evidence that I would need to justify the fervour behind this wagon.

And as to the last point of yours, that totally WIFOM, because if we expect scum to not be obvious, theyll just act obv in their intentions. Arguments should never be based on what you would do if you were scum.

It may be WIFOM, but, in my experience, it is accurate. Scum just don't generally behave in obvious ways and on the rare occasions that they do, it shows.

[VitaminR]

I know, but I've played with mustafa before (as his scumbuddy) and his behaviour is very different now. It's much more level-headed.

[VitaminR]

Woo!

[VitaminR]

when it came to the John wagon early on (which had a substantial amount of content for an early wagon) he was very cautious

I'm playing in a few games with john and in those games he has asked a pregame question that ended up racking 4 or 5 votes on him.

Oh, I don't mean the fact that you didn't jump on. I mean the fact that you pointed out the dangers of quicklynching rather quickly. You didn't have seem to any problems with a fast build-up of votes when it came to now a ranger.

That's a double standard.

Double standard = scum.

Romanus, I fail to see how a scummary is suspicious.

[VitaminR]

That's a double standard.

Bad Pregame post does not equal a lynch.

It never came anywhere near a lynch. No one on the wagon called for a lynch. You were the only one who saw it as a likely outcome.

[VitaminR]

I agree with a lot of that analysis.

Elias for me is too much out in the open in his attacks on now a ranger/you. I don't know, I'm just not getting a scum vibe off him.

As for mustafa, after my vote for him we had a brief exchange and he came off looking rather well to me. I went back to voting John because of something he then did. He jumped on blahgo, although I don't quite remember in what fashion.

[VitaminR]

Elias for me is too much out in the open in his attacks on now a ranger/you. I don't know, I'm just not getting a scum vibe off him.

I'm not sure if "being too out in the open" is much of a scumtell. As I see it, the more you let the town know of your suspicions and opinions, the more they get a read on you, and the more you help the town.

Yeah, that was what I was saying.

[VitaminR]

John, why are you so much more cautious this game than in 327?

[VitaminR]

I'm confused. You call me suspicious for being too out in the open about my opinions. Then I make a post explaining how its good for town if everyone expresses their opinions fully, and you agree with it? Could you elaborate on how that is what you meant? Or are you saying that being "too" out in the open is good? Im just really confused, and some clarification would be nice.

You're too out in the open to be scum.

[VitaminR]

Also, can we lynch Occult?

[VitaminR]

FoS VitaminR

he flat out said someone couldn't be Mafia. This is a weak case and it was quick review. I'll see where it goes from here.

1. It was clarification of something I said earlier.
2. It only concerned one aspect of his behaviour.
3. If you do care, Elias is town.

Occult, I don't see a double standard. I attacked John and defended nar. They did different things.

Both nar and Skruffs strike me as pro-town. That's it.

[VitaminR]

And that's where the double standard comes in. You accused me of defending john while attacking NAR. Saying my double standard was scummy.

Nah, I accused you of a different point of view on whether or not it is bad that a wagon develops quickly.

As for IH jumping on the John thing: yeah, that was suspicious, but I don't see how IH following my vote equals a connection between us. You could argue for a connection between the first and second voter of any wagon based on that.

And: yeah, Chevelle rocks.

[VitaminR]

I would suggest having everyone post their resons for voting or not voting me before you actually lynch me. That way you know everyone's stance after you get the results from the lynch. I believe this will be much more beneficial for the town.

I agree. I believe my reason is clear. I'm voting you for a double standard concerning the speed with which the John and now a ranger's wagons built up.

[VitaminR]

We just need two more, people.

[VitaminR]

Elias, way to not take a stand.

[VitaminR]

Skruffs, I could have very well used the word "definitely." I'm fairly confident mustafa is town and I often use overblown rhetoric.

mustafa, I don't think the two situations are comparable.

1) My adamance in that game was put on. It was a show.
2) I always push for lynches like this. When I say "We need two more votes, people", it is just an indication that I believe in this lynch. I feel enough time has passed this Day 1 and we could do with some information.

[VitaminR]

I like Skruffs' case against John. John seems to have sort of given up on this game and that really seems to clash with what I've seen of him in other games.

Unvote: Occult,
Vote: John

Occult, I've already explained why I think mustafa is town.

[VitaminR]

Okay, first, i want to

FoS: VitaminR

because in another game i was with him, he was scum, and very good scum at that. this seems like a subtle attempt to start a bandwagon.

I'm suspicious because I was good scum in one game and because I put on a second vote?

I've been consistently suspicious of you this Day 1.

1) You're playing nothing like you were in our last game, in which you were the doctor. (We endgamed him), for these reasons:
- You're not voting.
- You're not hunting scum.
- Your opinions are nowhere near as clear.

2) Your pre-game question.

3) Your easy vote for blahgo.

4) The points raised by Skruffs.

I really think John would make a great lynch.

As for mustafa, he was nervous and jumpy as scum when I played with him. He's not like that at all now.

[VitaminR]

Just for the record, I don't believe in metagaming at all. I will not denounce anyone for stating their opinions on people's play compared to other games, but it will be of no consequence to me and will be ignored.

As far as my case against John is concerned, only 1) is a metagame reason and all the arguments used to support it can be seen as valid indicators of scumminess regardless.

[VitaminR]

I still want both Occult and John lynched and I feel this Day has dragged on long enough. I am more certain about John, but this would still be a great lynch.

Unvote: John,
Vote: Occult

[VitaminR]

John didn't do much either way towards Occult.

I'm annoyed about being wrong about Occult, but I'd still like a John lynch.

[VitaminR]

Forgot to add a:

Vote: John

[VitaminR]

Scruffs: NAR was all kinds of weird (from what I gather from "the tale of the missing posts"). He freaks out and calls Scruffs in to save him. Then Skruffs comes in as Nar's replacement with his "NAR is selfless and thinking of the town" post. It just strikes me as "off".

No real reasoning.

Mustafa: Broken computer, which means he won't be able to be active, yet he isn't asking to be replaced. With the lack of activity here, broken computer is a great opportunity to ask for a replacement, unless you're scum.

Vote: Mustafa

Eh?

VitR: I think scum would have a good idea of what their role entailed and wouldn't ask questions

in the thread

if they needed further clarification; I think VitR knows that too and was only trying to start an early bandwagon. He also stands up for Mustafa and pushed for an Occult lynch rather than a majority vote or more activity.

Umm... yeah, it was page 1. I didn't have a great reason. I said so. My votes is no longer based on that. At all.

I've explained the Mustafa thing. Yeah, I thought there had been enough activity and I believed an Occult lynch was a good one.

I agree with Aimee here.

FOS: MissMoo

[VitaminR]

Guardian, why does John as scum make me scum?

I'm still content with my vote.

[VitaminR]

Still pretty content with a YB lynch, but I really have to catch up on this game a bit, I have to admit.

[VitaminR]

Someone please tell me how Johns actions are half of the reasons of my votings. I am not John! Its not like he said " Im John and Im Mafia." No!Yeah, you can lay suspicon on him, but whoever voted me because of him, better give me a good explanation that doesnt include him.Im serious, Proably 3 of the 4 votes are JOHNS votes! I can see getting Lynched because of me, but of John? No.

Also Aimee, Stop refering to me as John. Call me Yogurt Bandit. Or Yb. But not John.

Prod: mustafa15

Prod: VitaminR

Why? I think John was scum. That means you're scum too. I can't help it if that makes your situation difficult.

If it helps, your overreaction to Aimee's FOS, including the "bandwagoning is a VERY well-know scum tell" bit, was incredibly scummy.

[VitaminR]

Woo!

Caught scum in the confirm posts!

[VitaminR]

Vote: IH

[VitaminR]

My reasons for voting IH after re-reading:

1) He followed my John vote very easily in the beginning of Day 1, saying "good catch there, VitR." It felt like a scumbuddy bus to me at the time and it still does. Way too confident in the strength of the tell I found.

2) There was a resurgence of the John wagon towards the end of Day 1 (Skruffs voted John, I joined him, and then Romanus and Aimee). Following this, there were a couple of pages of discussion about whether or not Occult or John would make the better lynch. Crucially, IH's input was somewhat missing from this and he stayed on the Occult vote. He didn't really mention John and subsequently came out with a Tony vote Day 2.

Strangely enough (because he's been giving me pretty strong town vibes throughout the game), mustafa also struck me on the re-read. He sort of deflected the early John wagon by jumping on blahgo and I seem to remember he did something to encourage the Occult wagon in that crucial Occult vs John period. I have to look that last one up again, though.

[VitaminR]

Not as much, really. Leading a wagon isn't all that dodgy.

[VitaminR]

Vitr looks kinda scummy still. He has now changed his stance on Mustafa, which is interesting. Mustafa did support the Occult lynch though...
Musafa could be scum. I have no strong read on him...

The thing about mustafa is that my gut is telling me he is town, but some of his actions concerning John are pretty advantageous to scum.

There is definitely a case on Aimee... but she is nowhere near most suspicious. I definitely don't think she is the play for today.

I didn't like the way she never hammered yesterday, while harping on about how she would. Also, she kept asking for the deadline to be revoked. That felt like a scumbuddy trying to buy time.

BM and Romanus really went at it for stupid reasons, but I still think Romanus is more likely town than scum.

I think both of these are town.

Elias is the most townlike of everyone. He built a good case against Skruffs and was open to other's opinions, and was actively suspicious.

I agree with this.

IH still looks scummy as hell. I didn't like his case against Tony, as Tony just seems like a new player trying to play this game well.

Also, the Tony case shifted attention away from John.

Skruffs continues to look pretty scummy.

I disagree. His position on the John wagons is also giving me a good feeling.

One thing that is kinda new: There is a possibility HB is scum. Miss moo supported the Occult wagon with little reasoning, and got a townie lynched. She then targeted mustafa for not so great reasons.

I've been toying with this idea too. Really there are not enough posts from this role, though.

And, to finish, I think Guardian is town. He is thorough and shares all of his suspicions. I also agree with a lot of his assessment and not one of them feels constructed.

[VitaminR]

I actually really like IH's last post. I'm considering switching to Aimee.

I need to think about this one a bit.

[VitaminR]

An overview of Aimee's posts pertaining to YogurtJohn:

FOS: Blahgo

Any particular reasons for simply jumping on the bandwagon against John?

Lucky page 13.

Vote : John

Why the lack of any reasons? What are your reasons for choosing John?

I agree with Skruffs' case against John, which seems very plausible. may move my vote away from Tony, but only nearer the deadline.

unvote

vote: John

For the case given by Skruffs and VitaminR I shall move my vote to John, who I believe is the best lynch target for today.[/b]

After this vote Tony voted John too.

This prompted:

Wow, not liking Tony's vote against John at all. I am tempted to vote against Occult nearer the deadline, especially since it could give a good idea of Tony's alignment as well. As IH says, Occult is the best target, and the fact he can't even come up with a defense himself shows how weak and scummy even he knows his actions were.

unvote

vote: Occult

If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't.

Can we have the deadline retracted? Mainly since I will be unable to post a large post until Friday evening (I have an exam on Friday), and I need to reply to some things said here.

Wow. I would most definitely be voting for YB, but I realised that would put him at L-1. I will only vote tomorrow at the deadline.

Mod: When is the deadline, e.g. what time, and what timezone?

Er, that's slightly stretching, Romanus. I am just naturally reluctant at putting anyone at L-1.

Will hammah later, unless there is a major objection.

Three things:
1) FOSed blahgo for his easy third vote on John
2) Switched to Occult at a moment when Tony's vote had made John the leading lynch candidate
3) Repeatedly asked for the deadline to be retracted (which would and did spell the end for YB)

I'd like to see Aimee address these points.

[VitaminR]

Considering VitR's response to one of my posts I am curious as to why he is still voting me.

There are still a lot of good points against you. I noticed a couple of things about Aimee that could potentially be very suspicious, but I want to hear her side of things in her words before I make up my mind.

I may have liked that one post (not because of anything in it, but because it seemed sincere), but that doesn't mean I'm going to disregard the posts you made that were scummy.

[VitaminR]

fos:aimee

I hate the wording of that last post.

uot;]If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't.

False dillemma. First she starts off between just choosing between me and John. Then she seems to try and continue that train of though, but actually tries to open it up to all range of players. Do you see what I mean.

First she just includes the two of us.

Then she says I'm not the target for today really, which then opens up to the whole scope of the town.

Then she makes it out as if we could be the only two targets, and will vote him if he doesn't come up with any other reasons.

FOS:Aimee

I would disagree. Tony, you may seem like an easy target, but there are a lot of people gunning for YoghurtBandit, making him an easier target. If IH was merely going for an easy target, he would pick Yoghurt/John.

If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't.

Sorry I didn't hammer. I had an end of exams party last night. Obviously, it didn't matter too much.

I agree with VitaminR here about IH. Would you also say the way he led the Occult wagon is scummy?

[VitaminR]

You say we use the same logic, but it was

true

logic. I don't understand what point you're trying to make. That we were both correct, so therefore we both are scum?

Lol.

Guardian, I've agreed with a lot of what IH and Skruffs have said. So yeah, then I'll defend them and use their reasoning. Scumbuddies try to hide links. Saying someone is pro-town is not a connection.

[VitaminR]

STD!

I will respond to Guardian's points in-depth soon. I think they warrant that. Also, I don't think he's scum.

I really want to hear from Aimee.

[VitaminR]

I've been letting this game slide a bit... sorry.

For one thing:

Unvote: IH

Haven't been too sure about that one since I cast it and I'm not really up-to-date so it's seems strange to keep it on.

I'll do a brief look at Guardian's case now and try to do something more substantial tomorrow.

IH is scummy case

Hey, before I go back and re-read, I want to lay out why I think IH is scummy. I'll just list the reasons:

1)Connection with John.
2)Leading a wagon away from John and onto Occult.
3)Trying to lynch people for bad reasons.
4)Anti-town, misleading logic, about how we have lives to give.
5)Responding to people's suspicions with appeasing actions/going with the flow.

3), 4) and 5) I really don't see all that strongly. His 1) and 2) were pretty much my initial reasons for voting IH.

They are these, btw:

1) He followed my John vote very easily in the beginning of Day 1, saying "good catch there, VitR." It felt like a scumbuddy bus to me at the time and it still does. Way too confident in the strength of the tell I found.

2) There was a resurgence of the John wagon towards the end of Day 1 (Skruffs voted John, I joined him, and then Romanus and Aimee). Following this, there were a couple of pages of discussion about whether or not Occult or John would make the better lynch. Crucially, IH's input was somewhat missing from this and he stayed on the Occult vote. He didn't really mention John and subsequently came out with a Tony vote Day 2.

I like a lot of IH's posts today, but I still think these reasons are valid. I don't personally see them as that important any more, but I can understand the significance Guardian attaches to them. I'm less sure about his other reasons. They strike me as "padding."

I think Guardian has good intentions, though. I still think he's town. Outlining a huge case like that makes him very vulnerable and the fact that there are gaps doesn't necessarily make him scum.

My stance at the moment is essentially that I don't want IH or Guardian lynched today.

I'll look at more tomorrow.

[VitaminR]

Three things:
1) FOSed blahgo for his easy third vote on John
2) Switched to Occult at a moment when Tony's vote had made John the leading lynch candidate
3) Repeatedly asked for the deadline to be retracted (which would and did spell the end for YB)

I'd like to see Aimee address these points.

1. Blahgo's vote was at that time suspicious and I expressed my suspicion against him. In fact, I was only the third person (behind Occult and Elias) to express any suspicion against Blahgo. IH and Mustafa followed me, and both as a result are more suspicious than I am (for that actions anyway).

Why do you consider that suspicious on my part. Before me, Blahgo had one vote and a FoS against him. And I only added a FoS, therefore I fail to see why this is a major point against me.

Well... because you still did it? The fact that others did it too, and possibly in a scummier fashion, doesn't mean I should ignore it when looking at a pattern of behaviour. Also, the FoS is part of what makes it suspicious to me. It's a very subtle of directing suspicions, and, because it's only really based on one action in this case, it doesn't really tie you down to anything.

2. "Leading lynch candidate" is incorrect - Tony's vote made it a tie. I changed my vote, because I went back to read a post earlier made by IH, which clearly gave his reasoning for voting Occult. I saw those reasons as more convincing than those against John, and adding other things (Occult's defeatist attitude), I saw Occult as the leading candidate.

You still added significant momentum to the John wagon and then took it away after Tony added a vote. It played a big role in why Occult was eventually lynched.

3. I dislike deadlines. I would much rather that we had free discussion unhindered by pressure to lynch. I wanted more discussion and more analysis to occur on day 2. Again, failing to see how that was suspicious.

You bought scum time?

Tony later says in post 567 that several players said they wanted the deadline revoked. This matches with the earlier points. Other people voted and FoSed Blahgo. Other people switched to Occult and other people wanted the deadline revoked. To put all these against me seems, again, stretched.

FoS: VitaminR

Yeah, but not one of those people did all of those things. It's the pattern of behaviour that's important. Your FoS of me here is very OMGUSy. Also, the "other people did it too so it's not suspicious"-argument is pretty tenuous.

I think I'll go with a:

Vote: Aimee

The people I want lynched:
Aimee
HautBoy
TonyMoonshine

The people I really want to keep alive:
Skruffs
Guardian
Romanus

I'm ambivalent about mustafa, would probably put Elias in the first camp and IH in the second, if forced to make a choice.

[VitaminR]

I didn't say you should ignore it. I found it suspicious - therefore I gave it a FoS, a recognised symbol of suspicion. Was it suspicious enough to get a vote? No. Was it suspicious enough to get a FoS? Yes.

I realise that and I find that suspicious.

Yes, I played a part. That I can accept. A big part? I would disagree. I don't really see why my vote is being targetted here, rather than anyone else's. After all, I only put Occult at -2, and then Miss Moo and you voted for him, causing his lynch. I don't see why my vote in particular caused "significant momentum".

You caused a 2 vote shift in the John-Occult thing at a pretty significant moment. I'd call that a big part.

I don't understand how wanting more discussion actually buys scum more time. More discussion = beneficial to the town, not detrimental.

Eh? In general, yes. In this case, asking for more time = more time for scum.

(I think you're scum, this means you would know who the other scum are).

I find this very stretched. I put a FoS on someone who was suspicious. I put a vote on the person who I believed was suspicious (and the best lynch of that day). Asking for the deadline to be retracted I don't see as suspicious whatsoever. Also my FoS on you was because your case was, and still is, highly stretched and doesn't at all amount to reasons that should be used for an effective lynching at this stage.

I strongly disagree. All these things might not be scummy in a vacuum, but in the context of this game they constitute two attempts at derailing a wagon on scum and buying scum time.

The people I want lynched:
Aimee
HautBoy

Why?

TonyMoonshine

Why?

HautBoy hasn't said a thing and MissMoo was scummy. Tony I have no real read of, so I'd prefer him dead to make sure I'm not missing anything.

Huh? fos: Vit.
Right now I'm looking at a pairing of Vit and Romanus. They both call eachother very townlike, and Vit seems to completely ignore my attacks/case against Romanus and calls him town. Also, Vit seems to have forgotten his protown notion of me in favor of thinking I'm scummy as soon as Romanus posts his very weak attack on me. Though I still think Romanus is the play today as opposed to Vit.

I changed my mind about you. It happens.

Gut says Romanus is town. Take that whatever way you want to.

Scum would want a deadline to force a bad lynch. What are you talking about Vit?

Eh? What?

But... John was scum, Elias...

A bad lynch is an innocent townie. John was not an innocent townie.

[VitaminR]

Deadlines in general have nothing to do with the situation. It wasn't a deadline in general, it was a deadline in context. Deadline = bad for scum. We now know this.

It's not about whose logic is best, Elias. Yes, Romanus comes out of that exchange looking worse than you, but that only really goes to show that you're taking more time to construct logical arguments.

I thought you were somewhat insincere in them. Not really a big thing and the fact that you're my fourth lynching candidate isn't really all that significant.

Why Romanus is town? Gut.

Mainly, the thing that is bothering me about you is that you're very much asking for logical arguments and expecting everything to be justified in what people say. Every Mafia player uses gut to some extent and it is very easy to poke holes in people's case by going for logic. Romanus seems much fairer in his judgement in that aspect.

[VitaminR]

Because it strikes me as insincere?

[VitaminR]

Vitr, you said my case(s) deserved addressing; will you address the first one?

The linkage thing?

I thought I already responded to that. In any case, I think you're drawing conclusions that are way too strong from fairly normal group behaviour.

Also, Vitr, I don't like how your reason for suspecting Tony is because you can't get a read on him. I favor suspecting people I am getting a scummy vibe from, not a non-vibe...

It's intended like a roadmap. If we lynch those people, we should catch all the scum eventually.

I forgot HautBoy was replaced by STD. STD hasn't really posted anything that sways me either way, though.

[VitaminR]

Wanting to lynch certain people is not the same as forming a club. His road map is about him and him alone, the people that he wishes to lynch in the order he wishes to lynch them. Almost everyone puts up lists of likely scum, which could be seen, and actually is, the same thing. You, however, have come up with a scheme by which to suspend the game and get three other players into a endgame situation. Your idea is to cut off any discussion, ignore any amount of info we may get along the way and speed to the finish.

VitR simply stated who he wanted lynched. This is almost inherently states that it will change as things develop, as your plan does not allow.

This is very true. It is mostly just a marker of my suspicions at this point.

[VitaminR]

Somewhat limited access until the 8th of July.

[VitaminR]

Argh, annoyed to be wrong about Aimee. I like Skruffs' mustafa vote at the moment.

I'd like to see him respond to Aimee's question.

[VitaminR]

Bigger post tomorrow.

[VitaminR]

PLUS... you turned me into a newt.
Witch, obv.

Skruffs' point about voting yesterday is a good one, but I'm not at all convinced Guardian is scum. Guardian has been very vocal about his suspicions and he has defended his assumptions staunchly. He has made himself increasingly vulnerable. That is not scum-behaviour. Yes, there are flaws in his reasoning and in his behaviour, but, overall, he has been consistent and involved in this game. He has gone out on a limb to be active when inactivity really is a scum's best friend in a game like this.

I don't think he'd make a good lynch.

Also, I would not like to reward mustafa for his absence by letting the spotlight fall off him.

Vote: mustafa

He was basically on all three lynches, without contributing much to each. Aside from that, he hasn't posted much. He jumped on blahgo early, kinda taking the pressure off John and also made a joke about being scum (I'm slightly annoyed with myself for letting go off that then). Most importantly, nothing in his posts is all that pro-town.

[VitaminR]

Thok! Awesome.

I can see the reasons for leading a lynch on Guardian and I don't think he is entirely right in calling it ridiculous, but I still think it is misguided. Guardian does not strike me as scum.

I see no reason to move from mustafa.

[VitaminR]

If I had to pick three people to be the remaining scum right now, it would probably be mustafa, Romanus, TonyMoonshine.

This is a good list.

I really like Thok's posts so far. I'm not sold on the Romanus wagon, but I think, in general, he's on the right track.

Post 322 I've mentioned, and I've explained that it feels like an attempt to keep people from moving from Occult to John and claiming that Occult was getting an easy out of his wagon, even though you've just spent several posts saying Occult is likely town.

Post 341 tries to discourage metagaming (which was one of the offered attacks on john)

Post 348 supports IH and votes Occult, and then in post 352 you immediately saay "I think Occult will likely come up town".

These are pretty much what keeps me

from

voting Romanus. There is no nuance in his statements here. I think a scumbuddy would have been less obvious. He seems too unaware of how potentially damning those statements are to be scum.

[VitaminR]

@VitaminR-how strongly do you feel about this "scum would be more subtle thing"? Remember, all of those posts were at a time when the popular theory was an Occult/john scum

pair

. Romanus might have been expecting that an Occult lynch would clear john and prevent john from being lynched until later in the game (if at all). It's only with the knowledge of both of john and Occult's alignments that Romanus looks as bad as he does. (Note: this is why I feel Romanus bringing up the "scum would have hammerd" and "the looking for who flipped from john to Occult" statements from Romanus are important; it feels like a way for him to take control of the discussion before people attack him for his behavior on the wagons; in other words it's day 3 damage control from a plan gone bad.)

I think Romanus was quite clearly steering towards an Occult lynch over a John lynch. I remember it feeling that way. I do think that is something scum would have expected to come back to haunt them. Also, I've seen your last point used more often and I don't think it really goes. In my experience, scum are much more likely to skirt the issue in a situation like that. In any case, it is not a strong point.

I feel strong enough about this to greatly favour a Mustafa lynch.

[VitaminR]

I still feel good about my vote on Guardian. I'm suspicious of Mustafa only because Aimee was. But, I dislike voting someone who's not here to defend themselves and it leaves us with less for tomorrow.

Normally, I wouldn't feel good about this either, but mustafa never posted much and I'm not all that enthusiastic about another replacement anyway.

[VitaminR]

In 29 either VitaminR is either both extremely perceptive and lucky, or starts busing very early.

VitaminR finds scum

in his first serious post

. That's amazingly good pro-town play, or busing.

37 – VitR was busing, or is an absolute genius reader.

Thanks.

In 63, VitR attacks mustafa for defending John. This makes a lot of sense, in retrospect. I wonder if VitR knew too much though, his accuracy that defending John is scummy is stunning.

Yeah, I should have stayed with this. I'm annoyed at myself in retrospect. Occult threw me off, his defense of John was much more ardent, and I kinda forgot about mustafa.

That IH post you quoted still bugs me, actually.

Wow. Guardian's post is a page long. I haven't read it, but I did a quick scan and noticed I moved up on his scum list. Guardian, did I move up because Thok is waiting to pounce on my report about you?

Thok, I've posted serveral times now why I'm suspicous of Guardian. You can do a reread and see for yourself.

Vote: Guardian

Okay, Tony needs to die too.

Guardian is not the play today.

I still think a mustafa lynch is the best play today. After that, I'd go for Tony and IH, at the moment.

[VitaminR]

Here. Still think we should lynch MoStafa or Tony.

[VitaminR]

Here. Still think we should lynch MoStafa or Tony.

Have you read my analysis of day one? What do you think about my conclusions on IH? Is there a particular reason that you do not support his lynch?

I would love to hear from... everyone. This game is really stagnating -- don't let the scum lurk us into another deadline .

I've read it and responded to it (post 926). I largely agree with your conclusions about IH, but I'd put him below mustafa and Tony at this point (although I could be persuaded to go for IH tomorrow).

[VitaminR]

Well, that put mustafa more firmly above IH, to be honest. There were two things that struck me.

1. John voted IH while FOSing mustafa at a certain part. Voting a pro-town player while FOSing one of your buddies is a classic scum tell.

2. Mustafa tried to meta me scum. Now, the game we played together was a vengeful set-up and I was his goon. I essentially put on an elaborate scummy act that got me lynched Day 1 and cleared him (eventually handing him the victory). I don't see how you can meta me on that at all.

[VitaminR]

My suspicions on VITAMINR and (to a lesser degree, Oman) come from VitaminR's potential bussing of John day one. Someone else - mustafa - pointed that out earlier in the game, and I was suspicious of it last night when I posted it. IH also quoted it.
I also can say I've seen VitR doing that after playing in Calvin & Hobbes with him, where he helped bus his only other scum partner day one. Sooo...

First, ongoing game!

Second, yep, I bus scum buddies. I know you consider it "low brow," but I consider it an important part of being scum. It has won me games a number of times. It is eminently possible that I bussed John. The only thing I can say is that it wouldn't have been such a messy bus had he been my scumbuddy. I can point you to examples of my bussing and you'll see that I tend to try to make them look as pro-town as possible.

IH had some questions.

What I think of Elias:

He has been outspoken which I like, but he hasn't really been a presence on any of the major wagons. He could be avoiding them, but, on the whole, I think it's more likely that he is pro-town.

Why I thought Mustafa was pro-town:

In the game I played with him, he was very newbish as scum. He looked a lot more level-headed and sensible in this game, leading me to think the reason why he wasn't nervous was the fact that he didn't need to pretend to be town.

[VitaminR]

Guardian, my recent lurking has very little to do with this game.

As for the Occult wagon, yeah, I was wrong. I got too focussed on the fact that Occult defended John so vehemently.

I agree with Thok's assessment of Guardian.

[VitaminR]

Guardian, my recent lurking has very little to do with this game.

Is that what you told everyone in Calvin and Hobbes mafia? I hear it just ended and that you lurked your way to a win after your partner got lynched by you busing him day one. Hmm... similarity to this game, anyone??

"Lurked my way to victory"? Have you even read the game?

Please refrain from making harsh judgements about my play in a game that you have not read, and a game which, to my mind, has very little relevance to this game.

As for the Occult wagon, yeah, I was wrong. I got too focussed on the fact that Occult defended John so vehemently.

Wait, what!?!? Occult defending John (for good reasons) is scummy if and only if John is scum... So you found Occult scummy... for defending... scum? You knew John was scum?

FOS: VitaminR

.

I didn't push for Occult over John. I pushed for both their lynches. I thought they were linked. For most, if not all, of Day 1, I preferred a John lynch. I just ended up settling for an Occult one first.

I agree with Thok's assessment of Guardian.

Which means what, exactly?

That I think you're pro-town.

1) Your unnecessary vehemence in going after IH.
2) The sincerity with which you seem to change your mind.
3) The time and effort you put into the game.

[VitaminR]

Hey, we won, didn't we?

[VitaminR]

Glork described it to me as you busing your scum partner day one and then lurking to victory, and I skimmed the game and do not disagree with his analysis.

*shrug*

I did not intentionally lurk or avoid the thread. I gave my opinion on all the discussions that were ongoing. Having said that, there were a lot of long posts in periods where I didn't have the access to participitate as actively as I could have.

I find the implication that I would bus my partner and then leech off that for the rest of the game somewhat unkind, but I get the feeling you're inclined to think the worst of me at the moment.

You did prefer a John lynch all day -- but you just said that you settled of an Occult one

because

Occult defended John -- Occult defending John is only scummy if you know John is scum...

I thought his defense was scummy because I thought John was scum AND because I felt he applied a double standard. I said that at the time too. Keeping that in mind and my strong feeling that John was scum, I felt secure enough to hammer.

1) Your unnecessary vehemence in going after IH.

Unnecessary? Why? And why is this a town tell?

Because it hurts your cause more than it helps it. How far you're willing to go and how much flak you're willing to take makes me think you're sincere.

In general, though, I'm not sure I am comfortable with effort = town as a town tell....

I'm not either, but it captures a gut feeling I have about your posts. You seem sincerely frustrated with the response or lack of response of other people. It really feels like you've invested in this game and that is generally indicative of a pro-town player.

[VitaminR]

You did hammer late, but you were back and forth all day. You just mentioned the double standard -- in the past few posts you were just saying that it was in defense of John, not mentioning anything about a double standard.

Well, it did make it clear that it was the way in which he defended John. You can look at my posts then. The fact that I thought Occult scum was never necessarily related to John's alignment. I did think they were both scum, but I could see Occult trying to 'save' a townie to clear himself. I attacked Occult for applying different values to different wagons. That never relied on John's alignment. He also almost assumed John to be town, which I found scummy.

I hammered Occult because I felt there were sufficient independent reasons for it. The fact that they were all related to the way in which he defended John does not mean they depended on John's aligment.

1) Your unnecessary vehemence in going after IH.

Unnecessary? Why? And why is this a town tell?

Because it hurts your cause more than it helps it.

It does? How do I help my case without pushing it ?

Well, you've made your points a couple of times over. At this stage, you're only making people deaf to them later.

[VitaminR]

I am so annoyed right now. I was making headway, and actually was to a point where I was considering MoS -- Vitr -- Romanus/Skruffs as a posibility

if

IH is not scum.

Does that at least mean you'd support a MoS lynch?

[VitaminR]

Also, Vitr, do you support a MoS lynch, and have you so far today? I remember you defending MoS somewhere in those pages, or being linked, and I wanted to check on that when I finished, but I never finished and I lost my hour of work....

I have consistently supported a MoS/mustafa lynch today. I did defend him Day 1, though. I had a gut feeling he was town for quite a while.

[VitaminR]

Anyone else a bit uncomfortable with how Elias and Guardian seem to be taking the charge on pushing Adel when they stayed away from the MoStafa wagon all day?

[VitaminR]

I can understand Elias and Guardian a bit better now, but I still find their spat with Adel weird.

I too would like to hear Adel's promised case.

[VitaminR]

Argh. I was starting to feel like that wagon was a bad idea.

I'd like to hear Tony explain his hammer. At first glance, it seems a bit too obvious, though.

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

[VitaminR]

I'd like to hear Tony explain his hammer. At first glance, it seems a bit too obvious, though.

Why are you defending Tony with WIFOM?

WIFOM is sometimes applicable.

And I second Thok's confusion. IH did vote Adel.

[VitaminR]

I know. It was lazy shorthand.

[VitaminR]

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

......would you like to read my posts towards Elias before stating as such? Particuarly the last two or three directed at him.

The bit where you say it is just "something of note?" That mostly struck me as strange.

I'd have expected you to a bit more understanding of Elias' actions, given your own regarding MoS and Adel.

It seemed to me to be a bit like you were trying to get Elias along while also setting up an argument against him later.

For today, I would not support a Thok, Guardian, Elias or Skruffs lynch. I'm torn on Tony (he seems too obviously stubborn). I'd prefer an IH lynch, but I could go for an Oman wagon.

[VitaminR]

I'd vote Oman if he wasn't being replaced. I want some clarification about that situation first, though.

[VitaminR]

Voting analysis didn't bring us anywhere in the last Nightless game. Granted, that was partly due to Stoofer playing an amazing game, but still.

I'm a bit tired of waiting for something to happen.

Vote: Oman

[VitaminR]

Tony is very obviously unhelpful. I'm not sure about him.

Thok, basically, my guesses were Aimee and mustafa. I was wrong about them both, so I've had to re-evaluate my impressions. Your case has a lot of strong points and I didn't really have a strong reason for thinking Romanus town. I've decided to bypass my gut for the moment.

[VitaminR]

For today, I would not support a Thok, Guardian, Elias or Skruffs lynch. I'm torn on Tony (he seems too obviously stubborn). I'd prefer an IH lynch, but I could go for an Oman wagon.

Guardian, I said this earlier today.

What's changed is basically that I had another look at Thok's case against Omanus and I thought it was pretty convincing.

My opinion of IH hasn't changed, though.

[VitaminR]

Need to catch up with this game. Will probably do so later this week.

Glad to see we got a replacement for Omanus.

[VitaminR]

Ok. I feel Thok is protown, because he is not just mindlessly following any point. He is taking time to explain with his points, and argue with the highly frustrating Guardian that it is certainly viable that we're both town. He has even gone far enough to show him that some of his arguments apply to me.

I find his innopportunism extremely townish, because attacking guardian and him voting him for it would be an easy bus that would probably benefit him as scum more, and I think Thok knows that.

*agrees*

[VitaminR]

I don't like the Guardian wagon. At all.

[VitaminR]

I don't have the time to go into all the arguments against Guardian. Basically, his past actions gave me a pro-town vibe and I don't think the evidence against him is that strong. The slip isn't that convincing and the fact that his arguments aren't always that good doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. Also, to be honest, there is so much text in this game that I'm finding difficult to distil the essence of what people are trying to say. I simply don't have the time for it.

[VitaminR]

Honestly, I'm not at all sure about my vote at the moment. Setael has made me feel a bit better about that role, but I'm not sure about the alternatives. I think I would probably support a Tony or IH lynch.

Thok, I've simply not had the time and opportunity to really scrutinise the case against Guardian.

Did you really mean that? I want to assume you were being sarcastic, but I'm not really sure...

Yeah, I meant that at the time. Keep in mind, it was said in a different context and did assume we'd have the breathing room for that.

[VitaminR]

I agree with these last two votes. I think I'm going to be adding my vote to this wagon too soon.

[VitaminR]

I dislike this. Does this help the town or just cover your own butt? Why tell everyone your plan?

I think for everyones sake you should answer this.

Two reasons. The first is that I'm still not sure about voting you. My gut is saying you're town, but my mind is saying you're scum and my gut seems to think everyone is town.

The second is that I wanted to see the reactions to it.

*sigh*

I hate how inconsistent this sounds, but I agree for a large part with Skruffs' last post and I will stick to my Setael vote.

[VitaminR]

@Vitr - Can you give me your reasons for your vote on me? Is that a vote left over from Romanus/Oman, or are you voting for something I have done since replacing? Skruffs' vote I think is pure OMGUS but if you actually have a reason then I'd like to hear it.

It is mostly left over from Omanus. You actually quite sound reasonable (though I haven't caught anything specifically pro-town off you).

[VitaminR]

Ok... Vitr, can you give us the reasons you think Tony is Town? That might be helpful.

He's too angry and consistently unhelpful. It just seems way too obvious.

Guardian, I was torn on Tony already and I suppose his desperation seemed sincere.

Also, I do think IH is a good lynch and will change votes if it helps secure an IH lynch.

[VitaminR]

So......... he's too scummy to be scum? Seriously?

Yes, that's my gut feeling.

Setael, I was just clarifying my position on IH towards Guardian.

[VitaminR]

VitR, have you thought about the Guardian case at all? I know it's less relevant given the shift in voting, but you went from "The reasons for voting Guardian are weak" to "I haven't looked at the reasons people are voting for Guardian at all".

I have looked at the reasons. I think I just said that I hadn't looked at all of it.

Setael, changing my mind once means I'm bluffing? That's really reaching. I'm voting you over IH right now because there are more people willing to vote you. That's it.

[VitaminR]

Woo!

Finally.

[VitaminR]

unvote vote Setael

IH would have been 100x better. And still IS 100x better.

FOS: VitaminR

. If you didn't happen to check in that is really unfortunate.... but it makes me think you are full of it.

To be honest, I did check the thread, but I chickened out (I really was torn) and figured I'd have time to check in again anyway before the deadline.

[VitaminR]

<3 Skruffs

LOL.
What does VitaminR's bluffing or non bluffing have to do with this? We already know he'll lynch anyone. Man without ethics, that one.

And thank you.

[VitaminR]

unvote vote Setael

IH would have been 100x better. And still IS 100x better.

FOS: VitaminR

. If you didn't happen to check in that is really unfortunate.... but it makes me think you are full of it.

This really makes me think Guardian is town. I'm also fairly sure Skruffs is.

I'm starting to have doubts about Thok, for some reason. Something about his deadline behaviour yesterday jarred me.

[VitaminR]

Sorry for the on-the-fly posting, but here's my list:

IH
Thok
Elias
Tony
Skruffs
Guardian

Vote: IH

[VitaminR]

Okay, I re-read and here's what bothered me about Thok. He suddenly produced a couple of new reasons for voting Setael at the deadline after sitting back quite a bit before voting. That doesn't really gel with his vehemence in going after Omanus. He essentially brought Romanus into the spotlight.

Also, in a Nightless game, it is important to bus your buddies as scum. I know Thok knows this and I think this kind of manoeuvre would be just the thing for Thok to do.

[VitaminR]

Also, in a Nightless game, it is important to bus your buddies as scum.

If this is true, you still have a strike against you with voting records. I think you have been on every lynch.

That's true, though I was on almost every lynch in the first Nightless as well. I was town in that one.

If you look at my general play, I do think you'll find a tendenancy for me to be more uncertain about bandwagons as town than as scum.

I actually like these posts. They're kinda manipulative, but I have to say parts of them do sway me.

Also, does the Setael-Thok interaction look fake to you? It's clear that she was trying to get a wagon on me.

Yeah, it did look a bit faked, but that was mostly later in the day. I got a bit of "more experienced scum guiding the newbie scum"-vibe from you calmly asking her questions and pointing out she should be voting Guardian.

Why does Guardian's vote on Setael make Guardian look good? At the time it was made, Guardian was the lynch leader, and the only viable wagons were Guardian, Setael and IH.

Not because of the vote, but because he explicitly said that an IH wagon would be so much better. I don't think a scumbuddy would have said that. It just struck me as sincere.

VitaminR, I said when I first voted Oman that if he was scum I was going after you next.

I know and I'm not surprised. I don't remember why, though. I seem to remember it was some comment someone made (I presume YB or Omanus).

Guardian, could you link a game in which you were scum?

[VitaminR]

VitR-I don't really see Guardian claiming an IH wagon would be better to be a protown tell. Given that he's been calling IH scum forever, I doubt that he'd change his mind about that.

Well, for me, his vehemence in going after IH is a major reason why I think he's town.

Reading through Theoville just confirms the impression. Guardian is much more likely to be this tunnel-visioned (and slightly aggravating ) when town.

[VitaminR]

My reasons for voting IH after re-reading:

1) He followed my John vote very easily in the beginning of Day 1, saying "good catch there, VitR." It felt like a scumbuddy bus to me at the time and it still does. Way too confident in the strength of the tell I found.

2) There was a resurgence of the John wagon towards the end of Day 1 (Skruffs voted John, I joined him, and then Romanus and Aimee). Following this, there were a couple of pages of discussion about whether or not Occult or John would make the better lynch. Crucially, IH's input was somewhat missing from this and he stayed on the Occult vote. He didn't really mention John and subsequently came out with a Tony vote Day 2.

These still stand, but I also don't agree with the people he's chosen to go after (Guardian and Tony, mainly). He's done nothing particularly pro-town.

I don't like where he ended up yesterday. There was also something concerning the Adel lynch, I think.

Found it:

I'm somewhat more suspicious of IH putting on the fourth vote after interrogating Elias about possibly doing so.

......would you like to read my posts towards Elias before stating as such? Particuarly the last two or three directed at him.

The bit where you say it is just "something of note?" That mostly struck me as strange.

I'd have expected you to a bit more understanding of Elias' actions, given your own regarding MoS and Adel.

It seemed to me to be a bit like you were trying to get Elias along while also setting up an argument against him later.

[VitaminR]

Pretty sure Oman and Setael both skipped over VitR when going after people. Prrreeeeeeeeetttttty sure that error of omission is a good one to go on. ^.^

Firstly, that needn't be relevant at all. Second, Oman actually had me 2nd on his list initially, then changed his mind and decided I was pro-town. He only had 15 posts, though, and he only ever voted MoStafa. Setael voted everyone but me, but even she started to go after towards the end of the day. Also, I haven't been voted much the entire game. It's basically been Guardian and you, I think.

[VitaminR]

I'm thinking IH and Elias, currently.

[VitaminR]

You are not voting VitaminR, and you really should be.
Everyone - scum or town - put their opinions out there and tried hard to do whatever they were doing - whether it was well foudnded, ill foudnded, or not.
VitaminR (by his own admission) watched the thread but didn't post.

Yeah, I was torn and I didn't have much time. I figured I'd have more time to mull it over later.

[VitaminR]

VitR: What do you think of Setael moving off Tony and putting herself in danger to get a wagon going on IH?

I got the feeling she was trying to save herself at the time. She seemed way too eager to move onto IH. Also, she was casting a lot of distrust my way, yet seemed perfectly willing to vote along my lines. It seemed to me like it was aimed at me more than at anyone else. I could go either way on the implications for IH's alignment. I can see her doing it to get me into trouble and save herself, but I could also see her try to create a connection between IH and me and save herself by helping lynch scum.

Actually, with the whole "calling my bluff"-thing, that last scenario seems pretty likely. I hadn't seen it that way. That's a pretty strong point against IH. It makes sense for Setael to try to establish that I was bluffing when I said I'd vote IH would be if she knew IH were scum. IH turning up town would have been more of a point in my favour than against me.

Thok:
I think that Setael was trying to 'badger' VitR to do what she wants, in a way to give VitR an 'out' when IH turned up scum, because she could then turn the tables on GUardian instead.

Doesn't that sort of rely on IH being scum?

Skruffs, I don't think you're being at all balanced in your assessment of my part in this game. You FOS me because Romanus pretty much cleared me. Don't you think that that kind of absolutism may be a bit strange between scumbuddies? I think you would have FOSed me too if he had been less sure.

VitaminR has been almost defeatest since Setael's lynch. Very different change of pace. HE started strong, adn through Occult's lynch and up to John's lynch stayed strong. After John's lynch, he backed away from the game. Now, after another scum's even more so.

They've just coincided with busy weeks in my life. Even if that's not the case and what you're saying is true, I don't see how this is scummy.

Voting analysis didn't bring us anywhere in the last Nightless game. Granted, that was partly due to Stoofer playing an amazing game, but still.

I'm a bit tired of waiting for something to happen.

Vote: Oman

Everybody. Please note this. FoS:VitR

What's significant here?

I don't like IH's Guardian vote. It seems to mostly be based on Guardian changing his mind a couple of times and being willing to lynch YB as a compromise. There's nothing in there that I can't see a pro-town player doing.

I really think there's very little to that vote.

We need to be lynching IH.

[VitaminR]

Guys, we need to get off this Guardian hang-up. Yes, his logic can be weird, he's too sure of himself (to the point of being unhelpful), but he hasn't actually done anything that's really scummy. Being illogical isn't really helpful as scum.

On top of that, if you look at the games in which he was scum, he's never this hung up on one player. He is, however, like that when he's town.

If we lynch him today, he's going to turn up town.

(Here you go, Skruffs, another thing to FOS me over. )

[VitaminR]

Thok, what do you think of IH's case against Guardian? Do you feel he has good arguments?

[VitaminR]

I'd like to see Elias & Tony answer the same question. Skruffs can too if he wants to.

[VitaminR]

I feel that IH's case on Guardian is very IH-y. I don't necessarily expect that his mass PBPA are all well thought out. I can point out a series of posts by IH in Board Games, where as town he misread stuff.

It's not just misreading stuff. He suggests that Guardian changing his mind is scummy. You could apply that logic to attack anyone in a largish game. By allowing IH to "misread stuff," you're doing the same you say I'm doing. You're pre-empting the question.

You've of course, already preempted that argument by claiming that you don't care whether or not Guardian's arguments are well-founded.

No, some of the arguments I have against IH come back in Guardian's initial case. It has kind of spiralled away from there since, to arguments specific to their discussion.

That said, I also feel you're flat out ignoring stuff that Guardian has done (the MOS/Oman situation is notable and it's weird that you are completely ignoring it).

I'll look at that.

I feel your argument on IH is somewhat circular (he's scum for attacking Guardian, who's town for attacking IH). I realize it's not totally circular, because your arguing that Guardian is town for his style of attack, and not just his choice of attack, but then that begs the question of why you aren't trying to analyze IH's play by looking at his style.

It's the manner in which they do it that matters and I do think IH is less OMGUSy and more sensible in general. Tunnel vision is one thing, but retaliatory tunnel vision is a bit more petty than what I expect from IH.

[VitaminR]

Thok, what do you think of IH's case against Guardian? Do you feel he has good arguments?

Post 1668 you tell us not to worry about Guardian and move on. In the very next post you want us to comment on IH's case against Guardian.

Which is it?

Well, they aren't mutually exclusive. I want you to look at IH's case against Guardian because I think that the fact that there is little to it is significant. I don't expect that from IH. Also hoping it will make people doubt the strength of the Guardian-wagon.

[VitaminR]

It's not BS. At least twice now you have been close to lynch and both times you cried and pleaded with everyone not to vote you. You could have spent the time helping the town but were too selfish to do so. I vaguely remeber Occult admitting he played bad but instead of begging those not to vote him, he focused his time on getting everyone to post useful information for the next day.

Occult was a Day 1 lynch. That's different. Also, to say Guardian has been begging people not to lynch him is a gross overstatement. On top of that, both providing useful information for the next day and doing everything you can to avoid getting lynched are valid pro-town tactics.

[VitaminR]

That's still something that's said in a rush of emotion rather than a systematic tactic on his part.

[VitaminR]

When did doing everything to avoid being lynched become a protown tactic? I've always felt the opposite. With the Setael Lynch we're also like two days away from Lylo.

Well, assuming Guardian is town (which I think he is), it seems clear to me that anything that helps avoid his lynch does some good at least.

I personally do not like the VitR defense of Guardian.

Well obviously.

[VitaminR]

Heh, nice. You're wrong, though.

I rather like my avatar in monochrome, btw.

[VitaminR]

Meh, uninspired.

[VitaminR]

Vote Count

IH (2)- VitaminR, Guardian
VitaminR (1)- Skruffs
Guardian (1)- IH

I think it's pretty clear this is not going to change.

I'd like to hear from Tony, Thok and Elias.

[VitaminR]

*twiddles thumbs*

[VitaminR]

a 32 and 55 as my current test grades? Math needs to come first.

Also

FoS:Skruffs

for his above post I think.

That's an easy, kneejerk FOS. I don't like it.

[VitaminR]

So, here's some points:
What do you think of VitaminR not being on Setael's wagon - or on the wagon Setael was pushing, for that matter, too?

I was on the Setaelwagon, from quite early on.

Factor in that the lynch happened fairly soon after VitaminR had acknowledged that he busses his scum buddies - and instigating that he feels you would do the same?

Meaningless. WIFOM argument.

Did you notice that VitaminR agreed with everything you said yesterday, until you voted Setael, and today his opinion of you has changed?

Hmm... might those things be related? I grew suspicious of him because of his interaction with Setael yesterday.

I searched his posts and found no analysis of you, by him, just glowing endorsements.

I agreed with him. That doesn't mean I wasn't scrutinising him.

Did not help lynch Romanus's replacement, who was mafia.

Untrue. Furthermore, I think it ironic how your analysis of the role of my gut shows how that has been consistent throughout the game.

Thok, if you feel "neutral at best" about me, why? What about my actions do you find suspicious?

[VitaminR]

specifically I feel like that you've been focusing on one player at a time in both places

In C&H, my approach was basically to pick out one player that no one was really going after and build a case against them (Erg0 and SV, in particular). I did that more to build up an aura of suspicion around them for later than anything else. Also, if you look at C&H, you'll see that I was never really clear about how I saw everyone at one particular moment. In this game (and I generally do this when I'm town), I've listed how I feel about everyone even when focusing on one player. I've made lynching roadmaps and things. I'm a bit more non-committal (like I guess towards the end of C&H) when I'm scum.

there are also some individual plays that also seem similar, in particular your play with mustafa here feels like your play with PJ there.)

In that I went from a town-gut feeling to accusing them? With PJ, that was actually sincere. It was Day 1 and I assumed two 2-person scum groups at the time.

I've also feel like you are protecting Guardian a bit too much (and I dislike that you've flat out said several times that you'd look at the Guardian arguments and then not done so.)

That's more a lack of time and the fact that I'm not really sure where to find all the relevant arguments, although I admit that the fact that I think Guardian town makes it a bit of a low priority.

[VitaminR]

Deadline- October 27th

get to it.

*agrees*

[VitaminR]

Impatience for a lynch.

You realise I've said something to the effect of "Vote!" like twice in the last few pages, right?

[VitaminR]

Actually, looking at VitR's posts he very rarely mentions Romanus at all, especially at times when I'd suspect protown players to look at him. (For example when the whole Guardian proposes his plan/Romanus attacks him, a lot of people go after Romanus, but VitR wasn't around and doesn't actually say anything about those two incidents when he starts posting again.)

I think I actually posted something agreeing with Romanus there, but I agree that I had a bit of blind spot concerning him.

[VitaminR]

Right now, I think:
Guardian = Town
Thok = Town
Vit = scum

Everyone Else = undecided.
So yeah, I'm still lost.

That's kinda out of the blue. Why?

[VitaminR]

3 days until deadline?

I don't mean the list, just his opinion of me.

[VitaminR]

@VitR-it's not so much the fact that you had a blind spot for Romanus, but that you chose not to comment about him at all at various points. I feel like that ignoring him was in contrast to your play with respect to other people, and was possibly an attempt to avoid having to attack Romanus at the time without seeming to make a connection to him.

Meh, I do that to people I think pro-town. I've done the same for Skruffs (and for you up until the start of this day).

[VitaminR]

Crap. I really thought IH was scum (sorry IH!).

[VitaminR]

Well, that lynch threw me off a bit, I have to admit.

I don't think Tony is scum. My thoughts about him haven't changed. I still see and understand the case against Guardian, but disagree with it for the same reasons. I just don't see him doing that as scum. He's not that scheming.

I really don't like how both you and Elias kept pressure on me, but let the deadline hit anyway. Why didn't you vote me before the deadline? Did either of you believe in an IH lynch?

This is awfully convenient. Your fingerprints are not on the IH wagon (you can actually use it against Guardian and me) and you have a new lynch set up (Skruffs is not going to change his mind about me). You could probably even get a Guardian lynch going.

Skruffs, I'd really like you to think about the above. You're as wrong about as me as Guardian was about IH. This may be a lost cause, but I don't think you're scum, so I'm choosing to appeal to you.

[VitaminR]

Well, that lynch threw me off a bit, I have to admit.

I know you are a better player than this. Given that IH's was the lynch leader for several weeks, you had to have thought at least a little bit about who would be scum in both scenarios (if he came up scum or town).

Different scenarios don't necessarily mean that I have one at hand that is a good fit.

You've never really said anything about the case against Guardian. Guardian's play doesn't require him to be "scheming" at all, just to be extremely OMGUSy and to come up with reasons to vote IH whenever he feels like it.

It necessitates him to decide to push that heavily for the lynch of an innocent player. That's what I meant. I expected to come under fire much more before the deadline (a 2-vote lynch isn't exactly what you want to let happen) and it does seem as if you've just waited for IH to be dead first.

My thoughts about the IH lynch are a matter of public record. I mentioned that there was stuff I didn't like about him, and before deadline I said I would be OK with him as an info lynch, even though my thoughts based off of the behavior of town during the deadline had him leaning towards being town. I can see attacking me for my behavior yesterday, but not for not explaining my thoughts about IH yesterday.

Fair enough, but I hope you can see why the timing of the attack on me bothers me a bit.

Also knowing what we know now, if I was scum and you were town (and especially if Guardian is town), it would have been much stronger play for me to have voted you near the deadline (if IH gets lynched, I would be in much stronger position to claim credit for trying to avoid that, and even if you were lynched as town, then we'd stil have the whole Guardian going crazy about attacking IH thing set up.) Obviously, this is WIFOM, but it's worth noting.

Noted.

Why are you giving scum advice about who they could be trying to lynch next?

Come on, you're better than that.

Also, I think it's clear that you can get an attack on Elias and me based off of our behavior with respect to the IH wagon, and that you are trying to do so.

I think they're different cases. You don't need to change anyone's mind about anything to secure a lynch, if your aim is to get me lynched. That's the distinction I was drawing.

[VitaminR]

Also, I think it's clear that you can get an attack on Elias and me based off of our behavior with respect to the IH wagon, and that you are trying to do so.

I think they're different cases. You don't need to change anyone's mind about anything to secure a lynch, if your aim is to get me lynched. That's the distinction I was drawing.

Even with Skruffs (who I would expect to be somewhat fickle), Elias, and I that's only three people. Also, at best your insulting Skruffs by suggesting that he wouldn't consider the implications of the behavior by town near deadline.[/quote]
The basic distinction I'm trying to draw is that you don't have to change anyone's mind. (Also, I think the way this discussion is going - even Guardian slowly building up to a change of heart - backs up my point that building a wagon on me today is much easier than what you're accusing me of).

Will get to the rest later.

[VitaminR]

I'm really busy, but I don't want to leave a replacement in this situation. I'll try to defend myself.

Point A) VitaminR busses. He came into the game immediately attacking John, who turned out to be scum. He had no problem shifting the vote away from John, repeatedly, though moving it back when it seemed momentum went that way. Similarly with Oman - he did not quite start the wagon on Oman/Setael, but he slipped onto it.

The fact that I didn't the start the wagons doesn't mean anything. The premise that I bus doesn't lead to the logical conclusion that if I'm on a scum lynch, I'm scum either.

Point B) Day Five. Avoided the end-situation entirely, when Setael was trapped in a conundrum. VitaminR was already voting Setael, but he intentionally didn't post in the thread. Why? He's had no trouble posting in the thread in tight situations before. He followed me onto the Oman wagon from day four, without saying much about it (And while you were trying to pull attention away from it) and just stuck to it.

Don't see how this is scummy. I didn't have much time to post then and I didn't feel like a quick, uninformed comments was much better.

Point C) Said mustafa was town early on, but changed his mind when the wagon went on him.

People change their minds. The same thing goes for other players as well. There was no attention on mustafa for a while.

Point D) Followed you on an IH wagon although it made less sense for IH to be scum than for you the next day.

I've never thought Guardian scum. That's why.


I could make a lot more, but I guess I'm depressed that you are *just now* beginning to look at other players in the game. You can't hide behind IH anymore.
Remember when you said
"I don't see much correlation between Setael's alignment and IH's. " and then voted IH anyways? or

"John, finally, is where the plan hinges. If John is scum, then VitR is in my eyes likely scum, and if Vitr is scum then IH is likely to be. They pointed out/realized that the scum shifted the wagon, and are now imo bussing their companion. John's play was also scummy in and of itself in certain aspects. "


I can understand why you would be nervous about bussing VITR. You've worked so hard to pull attention off of him. [/quote]

[VitaminR]

Guardian, I fully expected you to switch to me. You're generally suspicious of me and there's enough meat behind Skruffs and Thok's cases. It all fits a certain intuitive narrative.

Honestly, I don't even want to hear it. I'm not going to convince you and I don't think you'll come up with anything interesting.

Thok, Elias was really thoughtful early on in the game, but as it progressed, I noticed that he wasn't really doing anything with that. Elias has consistently avoided pushing a wagon. He has posted non-controversial analysis and refrained from getting into any real discussions.

I think Elias has a better chance of being scum, but I'll vote Tony in an attempt to save my hide.

Vote: TonyMoonshine

[VitaminR]

Thok, for the majority of the game that still applies. It's not a 30-page game.

Dont try this bullshit. I didnt try to avoid wagons, for a large portion of the game I could only post about once a week.

That's fair enough, but it does mean that I have doubts about your alignment, if only in absence of anything strikingly pro-town.

[VitaminR]

Thok, that's uncharacteristically vindictive.

One argument with Romanus simply does very little to undermine my point.

[VitaminR]

Thanksgiving miracle!

I'm confused about how VitR's vote for Tony can be seen as anything more than VitR trying to keep himself alive. In my mind, it's a null tell.

Mod

, can we get a prod on VitR, as I want to be certain he knows he survived the lynch and still needs to participate.

I just read it.

Skruffs, check the first Nightless. I was on every lynch then too. I was town.

Also, Thok is right concerning my Tony vote. I was saving my own hide.

I need to read this game from start to finish. I only have gut impressions of everyone to share at this point and I don't think they're very helpful.

[VitaminR]

First 10 pages

First two posts:

random vote: Tony Moonshine

Because I'm impatient.

Vote: Drain Bead

For starting a wagon on an easy target.

With what we know now, I kinda doubt Thok (replaced Drain Bead) is scum.

vote:John

Wouldn't be surprised if this was a bus. Blahgo is now Guardian.

um, i actually had similar questions about the game, seeing as this is my first nightless as well. i think any intelligent scum would make it a point not to ask that, but ask about some other power role (i know this is WIFOM). I dont know. i admit it makes him more suspicious than anyone else so far, but im not comfortable with lynching him for ignorance.
Anyways, bandwagons are not inherantly scummy. I mean, a bandwagon to start conversation is a good thing, as long as there's no random lynch. But i dont like how blahgo just jumped on without saying anything.
so

fos: blahgo

, and

unvote

for now.

I can see this as a scum response too.

well, i know that NAR saw that the site was up, i talked to him on scumchat. wierd that he didnt post. anyways, ill go back to my

vote: NAR

in case it isnt registered. sadly we lost the post where i laid out my six reasons that NAR is scum. but i think you guys remember so its all good.

NAR vote is too easy.

Implications are hard to acertain with text, NAR. try cold hard evidence.

Unvote, FoS: NAR

Just cause i think i had a vote on him, but i forgot so this is just in case. this new server thing is almost like a fresh start to me.

Reading on, I'm siding with Elias over NAR in this discussion. Also thought this was interesting. NAR is Skruffs now.

Well those are my thoughts. ill start with a

Vote: Occult

. I think its quite possible that him and John are a scumpair.

Mod: a Votecount would also be nice

I can see BM (now Guardian) drawing this conclusion about a townie + scumbuddy.

Battle Mage's post #112 comes off as very scummy to me. He manages to accuse and defend just about everyone in that post. It is a typical "scum covering their bases" type of post.

UNVOTE

VOTE: Battle Mage

The scum pairing of John and Occult because of that post 62 is a little ridiculous in my opinion. And to call it the "scummiest" post thus far is quite a stretch. It is also a very safe post to criticize because it really has little to do with the game itself. Also, that early in the game, I severely doubt that scum would buddy up like that.

This kinda comes out of nowhere. Inclined to see this as a point in Guardian's favour.

I believe Skruffs' attack on Occult and he does a huge post filled with analysis that is quite good.

There was also a bit of interaction between Skruffs and Romanus (Skruffs asking Romanus for a summary of his suspicions) that looked sincere enough (didn't feel like scum interaction).

Recap:
Thok = probably town
Elias = more townish than not
Skruffs = townish and scummy things
BM = more scummy than town

[VitaminR]

Pages 10 - 20

I'm going to hold on to my Battle Mage vote. He is still the scummiest player in my eyes, but I also realize the need for a solid choice for a lynch, and I will not hold that up if we near a deadline.

This stubbornness is a bit weird.

you've REALLY lost me now. My argument for voting Occult, was mainly that i felt him and John were scumbuddies. the fact that Occult WASNT scum, implies that the original voting logic was flawed, and thus John probably isnt scum-UNLESS he is much cleverer than he looks, and has succeeded in attaching himself to a townie, which i find unlikely.
BM

Ambivalent about this.

MissMoo's first post with analysis seems sincere enough. I don't see scum accusing three town players of an alliance.

Right after Simenon threatens with a modkill:

lol i thought u were kidding about the deadline.
cant you find a replacement for John?

I don't see a scumbuddy doing that.

Skruffs redirects discussion towards John. Again.

Guardian comes in concluding that John is likely scum because IH and me are scum and have been bussing John. Agrees to vote John with us for now, though. That is so scummy.

i think any intelligent scum would make it a point not to ask that, but ask about some other power role

This is an open setup... power roles? Scum who forgot there were no power roles? Only scummy thing I saw by you.

There arent power roles? This is my first open game, and I'm unfamiliar with the rules of open games I guess. I think you meant to say in a nightless, and in that light I now see that my comment was pretty dumb, though not necessarily suspicious. My opinion of Guardian is that he is an experienced player who will contribute, but I havent got much of a read alignment wise as of yet.

This reads like scum interaction. I don't like how passive Elias is here, btw. Granted, he was pretty busy at the time, but still.

Recap (impressions in these 10 pages):
Thok = slightly townish
Elias = scummy
Skruffs = probably town
BM = more scummy than town

[VitaminR]

20-30 pages

I think that three scum are thowing their new comrade under the bus - but I have no problem with this. If not, then we have mystery scum #4 and Skruffs IH and Vitr still seem scummy to me, though I would be wrong about Skruff's leading his buddies. I am like 80% sure YB is scum though... IH still would have been a better lynch for today, I'm like 90% sure on him.

Notice that all three of Guardians scumlist, other than YB, are the experienced players.

What are you getting at with this point? I was just curious. (im sorry this is the best my reread came up with) Also, Im a fairly experienced player, so the point doesnt really make sense, as I'm not up there.

Im waiting on Aimee's response to Vits points. Up until now I havent found much wrong with her play (besides the "If I had to choose between John and IH, I would pick John. IH isn't the target today really. I will vote YogurtBandit, unless he comes up with some reasons why I shouldn't." post), but now that those points have been brought out into the open she's moved up a spot on my LoS.

I don't like how easily Elias throws his lot in with the Aimee camp, without seeming to retain any of his own earlier suspicions.

Impressions:

VitR is town. I will be shocked if he comes up scum.
I do not like IH's play on this page. It looks like deflection by way of a pro-town post.

The only post by Aimee only confirms my position on her, but admittedly, I am reading a lot into it.

Not much on Elias

Blahgo, well, is just being blahgo.

There seems to be something up between Tony and IH. I don't know that it is due to alignment or what, but something to keep an eye on.

Strange that Romanus leaves in a comment about Elias, but doesn't say anything about the other players he doesn't have anything to say about that. Could be because he wouldn't forget his scumbuddies.

Having said that, Elias then posts a pretty good case against Romanus. No vote, though. I'd like to see where he goes with that.

Romanus, Elias - Both seem to be suspicious of at least several players and seem to be seeking scum. I get a protown vibe from both of them.

This is interesting. I would kinda doubt Tony would say that about 2 scumbuddies, but he is ballsy enough.

OK Elias, I asked you to do it for the following reason:

I thought we had a group of four likely town like players who all trusted each other's townness, minus me trusting Vitr. If I were willing to let slide for a moment that I don't trust Vitr, and I was right about my impression of having four town like players who thought the other three were town like, then we would have an interesting alternate strategy/side strategy for winning.

As long as the four players kept seeming townlike, and we still trusted each other, we could just keep lynching people not in our group, and would eventually get all the scum. Even if we got all the scum except one (Vitr? ), there would be four of us left with two chances to get that scum lynched.

Doubt Guardian is scum.

I am no longer leaning to the side of you being a misguided townie, but rather to the side that you are scum.

UNVOTE
Vote: Guardian

Aimee can now wait. You have become top priority.

Also in Guardian's favour.

So, I'm going to say that my attentions will be on mustafa, AImee, Elias, VitR, and IH, (or their replacees), in that order. Not all of them are scum but i'm sure one or two of them are.

more later!

Too wildly inaccurate to come from scum.

I have to apologize for my post earlier. I let my RL interfer with the game. But I still think Romanus' post was really dumb

I think the case on IH is decent, but I have to go back and reread to get a clearer idea of the reasons behind the Occult wagon. If theyre what Guardian is saying, I'm pretty suspicious of IH, because thats the most important part of the case. Also, after rereading the linkage case, I see it as feasible. Its not enough to convince me fully, but there are a couple of good points in there.

Anyways, I'm most suspicious of Romanus right now, for the reasons in my case 3 pages ago, for his flipflopping on Guardians case, and for his recent dodging of my question and that incredibly dumb post refusing to respond to questions.

If this is still true here, why weren't you voting him?

Recap:
Thok = town
Skruffs = townish
Guardian = town
Elias = scummy

I'm really inclined to see Elias as scum at this point. His behaviour today is another example. Skruffs and Guardian come blasting out of the gates, with reasoned, consistent (pretty much) votes. Elias just seems to be standing by, prodding at Guardian, but with no real indication that he has an idea of who is scum.

[VitaminR]

I have to go to work now. I posted that because my class was cancelled and I happened to have some time (also, Thok is making me feel guilty).

I'll try to finish it later.

[VitaminR]

Ok, could you compile seperate cases on people, instead of just this mumbo jumbo then declaring various people one thing or another? As far as I can tell, most of your cases for people being town, and me being scum, are bullshit.

This is unwarranted. You misinterpret half of what I say. I went through the thread, spewing out things as they struck me. Yes, they're not going to come out perfectly worded.

If you can't read someone else's posts with an open mind, maybe you just should kneejerkvote everyone who has suspicions of you.

[VitaminR]

Dude, my problem isnt that it isnt worded perfectly. My problem is that I don't even know what to defend, yet youre naming me your top suspect. My problem is at the end you declare that everyone looks town except for me, but I can't at all tell whats backing that up. If you could provide a few solid reasons for each, then I'd be happy.

I realise and you deserve a clearcut answer. However, what's up there is only 3/8ths of the way through the game and it's not that clearly organised. I'll clarify what I meant on the basis of your responses at some point, but those posts alone were never meant to be taken as my case against you.

The fact that you called bullshit before you even really knew what I was saying just grated on me.

Also, the lists at the end of each post reflect my impression of those 10 pages alone, not my impressions of the whole game at that point.

[VitaminR]

Thok, perhaps I'm sensitive. Perhaps it's frustration at not having the time to get a good enough feel for this game to articulate what I mean properly.

I can see this as a scum response too.

Um...why?

It was really wishy-washy.

NAR vote is too easy.

"XXX vote is too easy" is a RETARDED scumtell. For a person to decide a vote to be easy to begin with, they have to be scum. So basically you're saying I'm scum because I'm scum.

Don't entirely follow your logic there. If a vote looks too readily cast to me, that can be scummy.

Except that no one ever adequately explained the "connection"?

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but the Occult-John connection was definitely there. Occult came out defending John pretty heavily and I seem to remember John said some flip-floppy stuff regarding Occult.

I had the same stance...so why not bring that up?

Dunno. I would guess that you didn't come out with it as strongly as Romanus did. I didn't particularly notice it, anyway.

Yes, granted I was busy (aka, having 2 days access a week), and also that it's my playstyle to be passive much of the game? The only time I really get much into it is in my own defense.

Fair enough, but I don't see how it is supposed to make me feel better about you.

Wow, I like how I went from mostly towny to scummy based on one post which was too passive, and based on a vague claim that that's a scum interaction. Nice. Even while at the same time, you admit that I was busy.

Addressed this.

What suspicions did I have of Aimee, pray tell? I thought she was townie the whole time, based on the fact that there was no real case against her. Oh, by the way, she came up town.

Hmm, yeah, you're right. I must have misread that.

He probably left a comment about me because we had been arguing the whole game up to that point, and wanted to post an official stance. I find it even more interesting that he places you as definate townie. I don't have anywhere to go with my Romanus case, he's dead.

Obviously, I meant in the ensuing pages.

Exactly, I doubt he wouldnt put two scumbuddies. I like how you include the last part, so even though this should really be a point in my favor, you try to turn it so at least it won't be remembered that way.

I wouldn't have brought it up if I intended to make you look bad. It is a point in your favour.

OK Elias, I asked you to do it for the following reason:

I thought we had a group of four likely town like players who all trusted each other's townness, minus me trusting Vitr. If I were willing to let slide for a moment that I don't trust Vitr, and I was right about my impression of having four town like players who thought the other three were town like, then we would have an interesting alternate strategy/side strategy for winning.

As long as the four players kept seeming townlike, and we still trusted each other, we could just keep lynching people not in our group, and would eventually get all the scum. Even if we got all the scum except one (Vitr? ), there would be four of us left with two chances to get that scum lynched.

Doubt Guardian is scum.

Why.

It's too stupid a plan.

So, I'm going to say that my attentions will be on mustafa, AImee, Elias, VitR, and IH, (or their replacees), in that order. Not all of them are scum but i'm sure one or two of them are.

more later!

Too wildly inaccurate to come from scum.

Um...what? This doesnt even make sense.

I expect scum to include at least one or two token scum players. At least 4 are town.

I'm really inclined to see Elias as scum at this point. His behaviour today is another example. Skruffs and Guardian come blasting out of the gates, with reasoned, consistent (pretty much) votes. Elias just seems to be standing by, prodding at Guardian, but with no real indication that he has an idea of who is scum.

wtf? You think Guardian came out with strong reasoning?

I didn't say that. I just get the feeling that, no matter whether or not you agree with it, Guardian at least has a consistent view of this game in his head. I'm missing that from you.

[VitaminR]

Random extra thought for Guardian: Supposing for the moment I was the last scum trying to keep out of the limelight as you claimed, why would I go after you today? You've demonstrated a consistent willingness to respond to my attacks on you with OMGUS attacks and votes, while I could put pressure on other players at much less of a risk. Given that every other player today has been attacked by somebody (you voting Skruffs, Skruffs voting VitR, and VitR's partial reread finding Elias as scum so far) I could easily have voted other people with much less of a risk to myself.

It was just the reread that left me thinking Elias was scum. To be honest, I'm not so sure any more after his responses. He makes some good points.

I'm not really liking Thok's attack on Guardian, for some reason. It doesn't sit well with me.

Thok, you've been fairly critical of me these last few days. What makes you think I'm not scum?

[VitaminR]

Yeah, I was just clarifying my position on Elias.

I think any comparison to C&H falls flat, to be honest. I'm also very weary of arguments along the lines of "there was a case he didn't agree with in that game, so he must be scum here too!" Similar behaviour in different games needn't say anything about alignment.

Yeah, I realise Guardian is essentially exclaiming nonsense. It's pretty obvious. Part of me is still pretty confident he's town, though. A couple of things in my partial re-read just confirmed that.

I never felt your case against Romanus was flawed, btw. It was reasoned and consistent. I just thought he was too obvious...

Right now, I think that either you've played this game brilliantly and are pulling a Stoofer on us all or I've just been wrong about Guardian all along like I was about Romanus.

[VitaminR]

I'm also annoyed by his "Anybody could be scum" nonsense. While it's true that anybody could be scum, it's also meaningless. At this stage of the game we've had 7 lynches and 70 pages of info, and I would expect him to at least start making some judgements on who is town or scum.

I'm going to ignore this point, to be honest. I very much recognise the feeling. Admittedly, Guardian has been a little bit more on top of this game than I have, but I recognise the feeling of being a bit lost and constantly changing your mind.

Anyway, that's not all that relevant. I need to carefully evaluate your case against Guardian and his response.

[VitaminR]

My main choice for who is scum is VitaminR. I just read through some of Tony's posts in isolation (Which I had not done yet), I see a few tidbits which could be considered communication between scum mates. At one point VitaminR stressed the importance of scum in a nightless game to bus their buddies, to which Tony acknowledged.

Come on, Skruffs, you can do better than superficial analysis like that.