Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

[MafiaSSK]

/confirm

But my reads matter equally as everyone else's and so because Cabd's matter three times as much, so do mine!

[MafiaSSK]

The number of votes you influence is the real test of importance. p sure we're going to own that metric.

wait. aren't you a hydra?

[MafiaSSK]

The number of votes you influence is the real test of importance. p sure

we're

going to own that metric.

wait. aren't you a hydra?

Did you think that was a royal we?

It was a joke. Because both of you represent one vote. Yeah. It was lame.

[MafiaSSK]

Guys. This is a Nat game.

Vote: Natirasha

[MafiaSSK]

For the record, I'm good with saving the vig a shot and just taking care of SSK now.

Oh, Cabd, you're so great. You are just fantastic at mafia.

[MafiaSSK]

jumping on the easy lynches already? that didn't take long.

I'm an easy lynch?

[MafiaSSK]

MafiaSSK(1): MafiaSSK

Damnit, Nat.

Vote: Selkies

They shouldn't be classifying people into easy votes unless they are scum.

[MafiaSSK]

yeah, watch:

VOTE: ssk

Oh hey, we voted each other at the same time. Except you're actually scum and actually should be lynched.

PEDIT: STOP POSTING GUYS. IM DELAYED

[MafiaSSK]

Lol. Look at the player list, SSK. Then tell me that if ffery and I tag teamed you, you wouldn't be an easy lynch.

Nope. I don't I would be. Go ahead and try though.

Pedit: SHH FFERY I RESPOND ONE AT A TIME. WAIT YOUR TURN

[MafiaSSK]

They shouldn't be classifying people into easy votes unless they are scum.

why is that?

Because you've already thought about who are the weak ones here. You have no reason to do so if you are town.

[MafiaSSK]

FUcking lol. Do it, ffery. Lynch his sorry ass before he pulls a 165 and gets vigged.

What happened in 165?
Why should I be getting vigged?

[MafiaSSK]

Lol. Look at the player list, SSK. Then tell me that if ffery and I tag teamed you, you wouldn't be an easy lynch.

Nope. I don't I would be. Go ahead and try though.

Pedit: SHH FFERY I RESPOND ONE AT A TIME. WAIT YOUR TURN

That was Orci.

Well, this is why you should sign.

Pedit:
Orcinus, why am I an easy lynch? Answer me that.

[MafiaSSK]

Also I now assume that you've conceded or dropped your original line of argument, which is that town have no reason to consider who's weak. Is this true?

I haven't dropped it. I still fully believe it. You dropped it.

[MafiaSSK]

Oh hey a double voter. Not very often you see those.

Rabble rabble.

Where are you seeing this?

[MafiaSSK]

Also I now assume that you've conceded or dropped your original line of argument, which is that town have no reason to consider who's weak. Is this true?

I haven't dropped it. I still fully believe it. You dropped it.

So respond to it then, and not switch lines

You'll have to requote. I'm feeling lazy.

[MafiaSSK]

Also I now assume that you've conceded or dropped your original line of argument, which is that town have no reason to consider who's weak. Is this true?

I haven't dropped it. I still fully believe it. You dropped it.

I never picked it up.

So YOU dropped it.

[MafiaSSK]

And how the fuck did I drop it when I'm the one who bought it back up like you don't even make sense

Pedit@ssk: wooooooooosh see this is why i think you're a weak player

ur a weak playr

[MafiaSSK]

Vote: Selkies

zMM, not that I don't support that vote, but why just put it down without reason?

[MafiaSSK]

Yes because i'd never do it to taunt either of you.

Nice recover, but I'm not buying it.

You're welcome to buy lead instead.


P-edit: I think SSK has hit more posts in this game than in msot of his completed games already.

Yeah, I'm not lurking in this game. Well, I mean, if you mean the 8 or so hours I sleep, then that could be considered lurking, but this game, no lurking otherwise.

[MafiaSSK]

I know, maybe he should make a huge case justifying his vote on you. Oh, wait, I'm his scumbud so I'll do it, hang on.

How do you not understand this Cabd? EVERY vote needs reasoning.

[MafiaSSK]

And how the fuck did I drop it when I'm the one who bought it back up like you don't even make sense

Pedit@ssk: wooooooooosh see this is why i think you're a weak player

ur a weak playr

MafiaSSK who was Anise Tatlin, the Town-Aligned 1-Shot Bulletproof Bodyguard, has been lynched day one.

Pedit@ cabd: yeah actually i was just talking to fery about it. What do you make of that?

Shit. Yeah. That game.

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

[MafiaSSK]

Yes because i'd never do it to taunt either of you.

Nice recover, but I'm not buying it.

You're welcome to buy lead instead.


P-edit: I think SSK has hit more posts in this game than in msot of his completed games already.

Yeah, I'm not lurking in this game. Well, I mean, if you mean the 8 or so hours I sleep, then that could be considered lurking, but this game, no lurking otherwise.

I had a feeling that if ever there's a game where you don't lurk like a boss, it's a Nati-modded game.

Well, I mean not that Nat's awesome and all, but I'm super low on games I'm committed to and this seems like a fun game to post a lot to.

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

Nope!

Wanna move your vote then?

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

Nope!

Wanna move your vote then?

Who the hell are you

Why should he not move his vote?
Why are we still in RVS?
Or better question, how are we still in RVS?

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

Nope!

Wanna move your vote then?

This post interests me.

I'd personally find it great if Cabd could just come up with some real reasons for voting you for being scum, because you are scum.

[MafiaSSK]

Nope!

then wanna come up with reasons for voting selkies?
Or explain how we're in RVS?

[MafiaSSK]

On the other hand, yes it is true. I have just reached the amount of posts I typically reach in D1. In a Large.

[MafiaSSK]

Jeezus, this is boring. Why aren't you guys voting Katsuki?

Who are you and why are you voting Katsuki?

[MafiaSSK]

Nope!

then wanna come up with reasons for voting selkies?
Or explain how we're in RVS?

I'm voting them because ffery is in that hydra. I'm not going to srs vote until I damn well feel I'm ready to. Plus, this is just a circlejerk of us three, which even if somehow both you and selkies were scum, still means there's at least one more out there.

How good do you think ffery's scum game is?

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

Nope!

Wanna move your vote then?

This post interests me.

I'd personally find it great if Cabd could just come up with some real reasons for voting you for being scum, because you are scum.

I'm pretty sure you've had the pleasure of an RVS phase with Orci before.

Not in any games that I've seriously cared about.
(Sorry Cabd, again.)

[MafiaSSK]

Cabd, do you have any serious reasons for your selkies vote?

Nope!

Wanna move your vote then?

This post interests me.

I'd personally find it great if Cabd could just come up with some real reasons for voting you for being scum, because you are scum.

what's your "case" again?

Orcinus sorted me as a weak player. Town shouldn't be thinking of players as weak or strong.

[MafiaSSK]

Nope!

then wanna come up with reasons for voting selkies?
Or explain how we're in RVS?

I'm voting them because ffery is in that hydra. I'm not going to srs vote until I damn well feel I'm ready to. Plus, this is just a circlejerk of us three, which even if somehow both you and selkies were scum, still means there's at least one more out there.

I think we've scared everyone else away. :/

Well, when they see 6 pages in an hour, maybe. :/

[MafiaSSK]

Who are you and why are you voting Katsuki?

Well, shit, those are some dumb questions.
1. I'm some dude in the game.
2. He called rule 6 bad because it punishes scum.

See, I saw that as him giving a pre-game critique to Nat. Nothing alignment-oriented?

[MafiaSSK]

Seriously, you guys are playing achingly pro-scum so far, regardless of your actual alignment. It's basically 6 pages of meaningless clutter.

I feel like if you can catch the tones of people in the beginning of the game, you can get some good player-connection analysis later in the game.

[MafiaSSK]

Who are you and why are you voting Katsuki?

Well, shit, those are some dumb questions.
1. I'm some dude in the game.
2. He called rule 6 bad because it punishes scum.

See, I saw that as him giving a pre-game critique to Nat. Nothing alignment-oriented?

Why would town even critique a rule that (maybe) punishes scum? I also think the critique assumes way too much. Why not assume the game is balanced around the rule? Town are uninformed; they're gonna assume the game is balanced. Scum are informed; they're more likely to critique a rule cause they know more about the setup. I also think scum are more likely to complain about a rule than punishes scum than town are. The critique is basically more likely to come from scum than town.

I actually really like this. Alright, you've convinced me.

VOTE: Katsuki

[MafiaSSK]

Seriously, you guys are playing achingly pro-scum so far, regardless of your actual alignment. It's basically 6 pages of meaningless clutter.

I feel like if you can catch the tones of people in the beginning of the game, you can get some good player-connection analysis later in the game.

I don't see why meaningless clutter is the right milieu for reading tone/player-connection. It is literally the easiest shit to fake as scum. Wouldn't it be more effective to create difficult situations for the scum to respond naturally to as quickly as possible?

What's easy for you is hard for others. But yes it is more effective to create difficult situations. But it is still somewhat effective to do it this way.

[MafiaSSK]

what's your "case" again?

Orcinus sorted me as a weak player. Town shouldn't be thinking of players as weak or strong.

surprisingly, we've had this convo. which you stopped responding to.

They shouldn't be classifying people into easy votes unless they are scum.

why is that?

Because you've already thought about who are the weak ones here. You have no reason to do so if you are town.

that's not fery dumbfuck

Pedit: ssk, what makes you think i had to dwell on the question of "is ssk a easy lynch" for more than a second

Pedit: lol he ran

Nuh-uh, you stopped responding to it.

I was all "Oh yeah, what makes me an easy lynch?". But I mean even responding seriously to that question, why should that thought have to cross your mind? Why should you have to consider it? Maybe you do think it, but it should just be brushed off and not put into writing.

[MafiaSSK]

That's not relevant. Your argument was that I am scum because I'm considering who is and isn't a easy lynch. Ergo, whether you are an easy lynch or not is irrelevant to that argument. Which is why I said that you dropped that line of reasoning.

Which still leaves the question of why considering people easy or hard lynches is scummy :/

Eh. I guess it does get a bit WIFOM-y, because I guess there are some advantages for town looking at things like that.

[MafiaSSK]

katsuki is town, foutrouble is town, mafiassk is maybe town, selkies is scum

Muffin, you're back!

Mind explaining the selkies vote?
And why Katsuki is town?

[MafiaSSK]

It scares me to be thinking this so early, but SSK looks pretty town.

I agree.

For instance,fourtrouble, it's easy for you to come in here and say "I agree", but getting a good solid read 1 hour into the game was a result of that aggressive RVS phrase.

Pedit: oh look a new challenger approaches

VOTE: muffin

A muffin vote? How is a muffin scummier than a katsuki?

[MafiaSSK]

you're thinking about things in a one-dimensional manner

katsuki-scum sees a rule that punishes good scum play, in a game with daytalk, and you think katsuki-scum expresses her dislike for a rule that punishes scum in the game thread rather than in private?

sure, it's possible i guess, if katsuki is dumb, but the more likely scenario is katsuki town who genuinely thinks the rule is dumb (or if you're looking at it from a completely objective pov, it's at least something katsuki would do as either alignment so it's a null point)

move on

Bah. Fine. Your logic makes sense.

Moving back to selkies then.
VOTE: Selkies

[MafiaSSK]

Wait. zMuffin, why is your vote on selkies?

[MafiaSSK]

Also Nat, I will make sure you do get a page-top.

[MafiaSSK]

That's not relevant. Your argument was that I am scum because I'm considering who is and isn't a easy lynch. Ergo, whether you are an easy lynch or not is irrelevant to that argument. Which is why I said that you dropped that line of reasoning.

Which still leaves the question of why considering people easy or hard lynches is scummy :/

Eh. I guess it does get a bit WIFOM-y, because I guess there are some advantages for town looking at things like that.

keep going, because this response sucked.

So like there are not only the advantages that FourDude was talking about, but the advantages that I were thinking about were that town could think like scum to see who scum would try easylynch and then try and prevent that from happening. You can see where it gets wifom-y.

[MafiaSSK]

Ok

So why am I scum, then?

Honestly? Because gut and there not being anyone else I have a legitimate scum read on.

[MafiaSSK]

zMuffin, Yes. Your analysis is just WIFOM ("it's too scummy so therefore Katsuki must be town"). I disagree. The main point here is that the critique is more likely to occur to scum than town. Where they post it -- the game thread or privately -- is WIFOM. The fact that someone reads the rule and thinks its bad because it punishes scum -- that's something that scum are more likely to think than town, regardless of how you try to spin the whole posting it in the thread part (which is WIFOM).

But I mean I think there are some instances of WIFOM, where it would truly be just an atrocious scum move to say a statement. I think asking a question about how a rule punishes scum could be seen as that because it is so blatantly scummy. You know?

Bah. Now I'm confusing myself.

[MafiaSSK]

Ok

So why am I scum, then?

Honestly? Because gut and there not being anyone else I have a legitimate scum read on.

This reminds me of the good old days.

The good old days?

[MafiaSSK]

To be fair, the only difference between myself and katsuki was that he typed it out, while I merely thought it. Well that, and remembering how fucked up it made the game I ran with that rule on my home site.

Could you describe what happened?

[MafiaSSK]

Ok

So why am I scum, then?

Honestly? Because gut and there not being anyone else I have a legitimate scum read on.

Nice. Well done, chap.

Come vote muffin with me. People don't actually get to slap down a scumread on me and then not push that wagon. That's not how this works.

I still don't get how muffin is scum. I feel like he's done a nice job of contributing to the town since post RVS.

[MafiaSSK]

Vote: zMuffin

And also, what? Weren't you just saying how Katsuki was definitely scum?

[MafiaSSK]

zMuffin is a better vote than Selkies. Selkies post where he called SSK town was very genuine and towny. zMuffin is eh.

If Selkies were scum, then them calling me town would still be genuine?

[MafiaSSK]

Vote: zMuffin

And also, what? Weren't you just saying how Katsuki was definitely scum?

Sure, but zMuffin is here (or was a second ago) and Katsuki isn't. I'm not gonna just let my vote sit on someone, waiting for shit to happen.

But what if Katsuki magically appears while you're gone? Then there'll be less pressure on him!

[MafiaSSK]

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

[MafiaSSK]

Vote: zMuffin

And also, what? Weren't you just saying how Katsuki was definitely scum?

Sure, but zMuffin is here (or was a second ago) and Katsuki isn't. I'm not gonna just let my vote sit on someone, waiting for shit to happen.

But what if Katsuki magically appears while you're gone? Then there'll be less pressure on him!

As a general rule, pressure from a vote dissipates once you say the word "pressure" with regards to the vote

Get with the program and vote muffin.

But I think Muffin's town!

[MafiaSSK]

I DID IT. I MADE YOU GET A PAGE TOP

[MafiaSSK]

Anywho back to this game, Muffin is town and the three votes are dumb.

[MafiaSSK]

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

Seems like a decent vote, either him, Selkies, or Katsuki. They seem the most likely tk be scum. Do you have a better idea?

Okay so you seem to think that scum is in that group. Why that group in particular? Because they've been the ones that have been most often voted on?

[MafiaSSK]

People

not named cabd

don't actually get to slap down a scumread on me and then not push that wagon. That's not how this works.

FTFY

It's amazing how often I forget that you're actually a person and not just an annoying bot.

Pedit: Oh, glorious MafiaSSK, "I am known to lurk at times. I am known to be anti-town. I am known for policy lynches. So yeah.", depart unto us more holy advice with which to lynch the wretched scum

Wait, when did I say that?
And why can't my advice be treated as equal here?

[MafiaSSK]

Anywho back to this game, Muffin is town and the three votes are dumb.

How so?

His activity, how full of content his posts are. Things like that.

[MafiaSSK]

scum care more about rules that hurt them than town

again, baseless assertion

but let's suppose this is true

do you agree that scum care about their image? or at least are more conscious of what they're posting? if they are, then posting something that scum are more likely to care about seems kinda contradictory to this notion

and no, this isn't WIFOM. this is common sense

But holy shit this is a mess of wifom and the degree to which you're defending Katsuki is a bit disturbing.

[MafiaSSK]

camps, we haz them.

I don't think we'll ever be in the same camp.

[MafiaSSK]

People

not named cabd

don't actually get to slap down a scumread on me and then not push that wagon. That's not how this works.

FTFY

It's amazing how often I forget that you're actually a person and not just an annoying bot.

Pedit: Oh, glorious MafiaSSK, "I am known to lurk at times. I am known to be anti-town. I am known for policy lynches. So yeah.", depart unto us more holy advice with which to lynch the wretched scum

Wait, when did I say that?
And why can't my advice be treated as equal here?

It's on your damn wiki page, Mr. "How-Dare-You-Call-Me-An-Easy-Lynch"

I might consider it if you had a smidgeon of reasoning behind it. But it doesn't, much like your vote on me. For, uh, what was it again? Oh right. Nothing.

Muffin's popped in, dropped a few scum reads, refused to give any reasoning when prompted multiple times, and posted a bunch of crap. "His activity" is underwhelming because he's presumably in-thread and refusing to interact with his scumreads or push anything. "His content" is shit.

Sorry, was busy updating my wiki page. That thing hasn't been updated since I left back in 2010.

It's not nothing.

But yeah. I think you've convinced me for the Muffin wagon.
VOTE: muffin

[MafiaSSK]

So. . . I'm going to guess MafiaSSK and FourTrouble are town.

So. . .

[VOTE: zMuffin]

So how about you describe your reason?

Seems like a decent vote, either him, Selkies, or Katsuki. They seem the most likely tk be scum. Do you have a better idea?

Okay so you seem to think that scum is in that group. Why that group in particular? Because they've been the ones that have been most often voted on?

Maybe they've been the most voted on for a reason? They just seem a bit suspicous, that's all.

How do they seem suspicious?

[MafiaSSK]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

[MafiaSSK]

goodfather probs town.

Maybe so.

What are you thinking about SSK?

Why I place my vote on my knee to the point where it hurts.

But in game wise? I dunno. Cabd's first vote seems so off. I don't like how non-serious it is for a serious vote.

[MafiaSSK]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

Does being new make a player less likely to be scum?

I mean I come form a homesite where the average player age is 14, man. I know a thing or two about newer players.

A. Are you seriously being an ageist? Stop that shit.
B. No, but it means him not explaining his scumreads isn't a scumtell.

[MafiaSSK]

What are you thinking about SSK?

236 killed a light townread for me.

How so? Because I challenged your read?

[MafiaSSK]

That's not why I voted him.

And if I were ageist, I'd be saying that his age or lack thereof makes him scum. My point was that the younger kids where I play still play like relative noobs so I've developed ways to read players not using classical regular player tells.

Then what is it? Explain your might tell.

[MafiaSSK]

Pedit what the shit is an ageist

An ageist is someone who uses someone else's age in a pejorative way.

[MafiaSSK]

WTF WHERE DID ALL T HESE PAGES COME FROM BUSY SITTING ON VENTRILLO PLAYING A LITTLE DOTA

Some of it came from you not posting!

[MafiaSSK]

Walk me through your thought process on getting "convinced" on all these scumreads.

My thought process?

I check the flow of logic, see if it makes sense. If it doesn't then I question. If it does, then I weigh it against the reasoning for my current vote. Whichever comes out stronger wins. And when it wins, if I can think of any other reasons why that person can be scum, then I'll often state it along with the vote.

[MafiaSSK]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

interesting

How so?

[MafiaSSK]

SO! Since I've got a slew of anti-town no-reason-for-voting players, I'll go with the person who just seems to be aping other people's arguments without producing anything unique to support their votes.

Vote MafiaSSK

Because nothing is more useless than a sheep.

So apparently I shouldn't be playing this late because I get sorta pissed off. But this sorta pisses me off.
Are you honestly saying that people can't be convinced by other's arguments without being scum? How are wagons supposed to be made?

But even if you believe that, how can you believe that I haven't produced anything unique? I have 73 posts, literally greater than a quarter of the game's posts, and you're saying I have produced NOTHING unique?

What a shitty ass vote.

[MafiaSSK]

But even if you believe that, how can you believe that I haven't produced anything unique? I have 73 posts, literally greater than a quarter of the game's posts, and you're saying I have produced NOTHING unique?

Yes.

No?

[MafiaSSK]

@SSK: Sure people can be convinced by other people's reasoning, but just kind of "oh, sure" is both utterly useless and suggests that you are just accepting it wholesale, without going back and making sure it makes sense. Usually if you accept someone else's reasoning it's smart to throw in some of your own analysis too; at least it would show that you didn't just copy/paste, which is a blatantly scummy thing to do.

Also, quantity does not mean quality. A lot of your posts are silly banter that just helped us waste a few pages, nothing more. Other than a few (admittedly decent) questions (like #161), a lot of it's just fluff. As for what I think was directly "not unique", it's your votes. The votes I referenced were completely aping other people's arguments when you had no prior analysis. Especially considering the #202 switch (which was pro-muffin) to #231 (which was a vote for muffin). That's an awful fast turnaround, don't you think?

I think you are so ridiculously stuck in the basic conceptions of mafia theory that you shouldn't even be in this game.

Let's shred this post to pieces. First piece:

@SSK: Sure people can be convinced by other people's reasoning, but just kind of "oh, sure" is both utterly useless and suggests that you are just accepting it wholesale, without going back and making sure it makes sense. Usually if you accept someone else's reasoning it's smart to throw in some of your own analysis too; at least it would show that you didn't just copy/paste, which is a blatantly scummy thing to do.

You know, I get that we try for original content a lot of the time. It adds to the discourse of discussion and whatnot which is definitely a very pro-town action.
So when I latch on to this pro-town action, I could see how it could be construed as me trying to get onto their "town credit".
But that's not what I'm doing here, nor would I have any need to. Not only had multiple people had me as solid town reads, but it's also early enough that it truly doesn't matter.

Let's explore that first sentence though. How the agreeing is useless, and how I'm just accepting it wholesale. I will gladly accept it wholesale that I am accepting those arguments wholesale. That is why I agreed to them without adding any questions or analysis that is true. But I think to address your point of how an "oh, sure" is totally useless, I'll have to put it into a more familiar perspective.
On occasion there will be political facebook statuses. Then almost undoubtedly there will be a controversial response. Then the original author will respond with another controversial response from the other side. However, both comments will get a certain amount of "likes" from people who agree with their statement. Whoever has the most likes is seen as winning.
So what I'm doing by giving a wholesale agree to a statement, is I'm "liking" that comment and giving it more credit in relation to other wagons. It is not anti-town. It is not as pro-town as giving a whole other reason, but it is not anti-town and you are wrong to say that.

But you really do try to hammer it in that all I'm doing is "copy/paste"ing and that's scummy. The only real situations that I can think of where it would be as solidly and truly scummy as I think you're seeing it as is if a person were to copy/paste or give a wholesale agreement to a wagon late in the wagon or dare I say even at the hammer.
And that is definitely widely seen and is almost surely going to be called out upon especially by players as talented as say Cabd or Ffery or orcinus. But they didn't. You know why? Because this situation is different.


So let's move onto the second part of your quote there, because that is also wrong. Actually, you know what I'm going to break it up into two. Just for more unique analysis.:

Also, quantity does not mean quality. A lot of your posts are silly banter that just helped us waste a few pages, nothing more. Other than a few (admittedly decent) questions (like #161), a lot of it's just fluff.

Quantity may not mean quality but it sure as hell means content. I am responding to players as their posts come in. It is not just me posting to myself about cheese for over 100 posts. I am making connections with players and if you cannot see that, then you should learn it. All interactions with players are connections that you can analyze when others flip.
It's not fluff. It's me analyzing the situations around me. If the situations around me are fluff, then sure, I'll put in a little bit of humor, but it sure as hell is going to have content.

As for what I think was directly "not unique", it's your votes. The votes I referenced were completely aping other people's arguments when you had no prior analysis. Especially considering the #202 switch (which was pro-muffin) to #231 (which was a vote for muffin). That's an awful fast turnaround, don't you think?

But then you say this, that my votes aren't unique. And let's note here that you said my votes, not some of my votes but my votes. So right away, no matter how you look at it, you can see that my vote on Selkies was unique and this tremendously breaks your theory for not only did I give unique reasoning once but I did it twice when I voted them on the two different occasions.
But then you reference my opinion switch. This is one of those places where I think your opinion becomes too entrenched in the basics of scumtells. Normally, when a person would switch votes very rapidly it could be seen as scummy. That holds value from the fact that they have no true opinion in the first place and are willing to vote whomever, whenever.
There's a couple of problems with this in this circumstance. First, my opnions were never that strong. Ffs, I went back to Selkies on a gut vote. I had no strong opinions on anybody. So when I see logical cases, that I'm willing to put my vote behind, I'm willing to switch my opinion. So that addresses the whomever standpoint. The whenever standpoint is also wrong. For you see, it's still the very beginning of the game, within the first few hours, and there's always a lot of vote-shifting from everyone. People react very strongly and give out tons of different posts, especially in a game as active as this one.
So no, that's not a fast turnaround.

Your vote is based off a large base of inconsistencies and I sincerely hope you reconsider it.

[MafiaSSK]

I hope you realize, Idiotking, that was 828 words directed right at you. Coming from me, the lurker. So you bet your ass you're wrong.

[MafiaSSK]

orcinus
#superfailhydraof2014

[MafiaSSK]

So Bert, you done catching up?

[MafiaSSK]

Bert, what do you think of Selkies?

[MafiaSSK]

I'm liking the look of Berts posts so far. They don't seem forced like others. In my opinion I can say he is town.

Can you clarify how others posts feel "forced"?

[MafiaSSK]

So I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but I see Idiotking's reponse and I'm going to have wait until tomorrow to be able to give a fully formed reply. Life got busy.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, no, I'm not replying to Idiotking. That's just making me want to lurk and I'm not lurking here. But whatever his case is full of crap and I'm pretty sure most people here know it.

[MafiaSSK]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Aronis

Give Aronis a break, Cabd. I'm pretty sure they're new.

Cabd was right about this being scummy.

Almost as bad as me defending Muffin. How do you know Aronis?

1 hour till Aussie open finals. Seeya tomorrow guys

I don't. I was looking at his join date and that's why I was questioning him so hard. If he gave scummy responses then I would have responded accordingly. But instead he gave newbish responses.

[MafiaSSK]

bert is scum

he hasn't done anything completely antitown, he hasn't self-voted and he hasn't asked to be lynched

Is this a joke or something from meta? Because I don't understand.

FourTrouble. Thanks for finally explaining your vote, but I think your preoccupied with how I play. Some people throw votes and pressure around and use that to find scum, I tend to think out loud and see what people respond to and see how they interact with eachother. You can call it cautious or unagressive, but in my opinion you're more likely to find scum in someone who is trying too hard or being ingenuine. There's no room for townies to be deceptive. And if I was going after easy lynches, I'd be campaigning hard against some who would have a hard time defending himself, this game has a couple. My vote isn't on anyone yet and it'll stay that way until I have more to go on. I'm interested in King Kenny and Kaboooom because I don't have anything on them right now, and I want to compare them to the people who are currently topping my scum list

I really don't like the way RossWilliams words himself in this post. It seems so

forced

.

[MafiaSSK]

I don't see why people have unvoted Muffinz. I still see him as scum. I'll continue to read and post some more.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm also not seeing the selkies wagon still. It seems to be full of crap and overeager votes.

[MafiaSSK]

bert is scum

he hasn't done anything completely antitown, he hasn't self-voted and he hasn't asked to be lynched

See, its posts like these that make me think of Muffin as scum. Like I know that he's giving a reason and everything and that's typically my voter, but here muffin just isn't giving it any effort. Bert had been in for what a day or two max? Or maybe it's just a joke in which case it's contributing nothing and muffin is still scum.
But why would he be joking? I don't see why.

[MafiaSSK]

wow shots fired

why is katsuki a waste of a lynch

Katsuki is either a jester, or he's blatantly over this game, which tells me town. Scum don't check out of a game on day 1

In the past, sure. But modern site meta has given a blank check to gain townpoints for apathy, and several posters have made their game plan prod dodging to victory. Kats is one of those. MafiaSSK is another, although his day one was a strong start.

Really? You think my general game plan is prod dodging to victory? How..?

[MafiaSSK]

I still find it weird how much ffery gets into meta.

[MafiaSSK]

wow shots fired

why is katsuki a waste of a lynch

Katsuki is either a jester, or he's blatantly over this game, which tells me town. Scum don't check out of a game on day 1

Can we lynch Ross, please?

Orcinus and I have some time slated for Ross research when it's daytime in Beijing again. I'm getting some preliminaries together this afternoon (California time).

Ross quit in 2009. Playstyles change. In fact one of the last games he played (Time Abuse Mafia) you can look at the playstyles of Nat, me, and Vi and determine for yourself how much things change.

[MafiaSSK]

hmm, some of my issues with orcinus could simply be because he is a VI

Really? Orci as a VI? Annoying, sure. But VI, no.

And my vote remains on you.

[MafiaSSK]

I thought that you were intentionally tweaking something that I had picked up about our recent games where you were scum.

I've been thinking the same thing, except about SSK, not muffin. That's where paranoia lives lol.

By that I mean, my past games with SSK (AA which you were in, and VisCon) had a distinctly different SSK style.

That's just because it's a game modded by Natirasha, so I give my best here.

[MafiaSSK]

Yo muffin, what do you think of your company on the selkies wagon?

i think katsuki is probably town
i dunno about kaboom, i don't remember anything he's written
goodfather i dunno, i don't really have any issues with him and some things he's written look townish
and aronis i dunno, i see things that give me minor town vibes, and i think a lot of the "scumminess" in his play has to do with him being a newbie rather than his alignment

Finally! A serious read post from Muffin.
Except not really.
Gives no explanation for his town reads.
And the rest is just vagueness.
way to go muffinman.

You guys wonder why my vote is on him still? It's because he's still scum and hasn't done anything to show himself as town!

[MafiaSSK]

Not liking the RossWilliam wagon.

But I am liking Aronis and because deadline
VOTE: Aronis
L1 time.

[MafiaSSK]

So, I don't really want to lynch Aronis... not really sure what to say about that though.

Why don't you think Ross is scum?

I feel like there hasn't been a sufficient case built on him yet.

[MafiaSSK]

So, I don't really want to lynch Aronis... not really sure what to say about that though.

Why don't you think Ross is scum?

I feel like there hasn't been a sufficient case built on him yet.

Since when have you given a flying fuck about cases in order to lynch somebody?

It's funny because in this game I've been getting shit for just agreeing with cases and voting based on cases. Looks like I'll just be making up my own stuff from now on lol.

[MafiaSSK]

I didn't when I first went through this game in the early days, but as the deadline started to wind down...part of me wanted to vote SSK for inching away from and delaying a reply to IdiotKing during their TvT's. It's like IdiotKing got too close, and SSK kinda withdrew...

Either way, I kinda expect to see vintage SSK-lurk for the rest of this game...in an AA kinda way (past game), not the VisCon 1523 (past game) super-scummy SSK. Idk.

SSK, what do you think of the case on Aronis?

The case? I'm not sure I've seen a case? Or at least a case that's memorable?

As for the Idiotking debacle. As I said, big posts are scary to me. I didn't want to respond because I didn't want to take another hour to post. And then I was starting to lurk. So I just dropped it all. Nothing to do with my in-game behavior at all.

[MafiaSSK]

Hey, I'll try and check in every hour or so until deadline. My vote's ready but I would prefer for it to go on to Aronis if possible.

[MafiaSSK]

I think I'll trust Cabd here in the spirit of NatMod. And if this goes like AA, well then, yeah.

VOTE: Selkies

Prove your towniness, Selkies!

[MafiaSSK]

Unless you're talking about that day 1 push that scum-you made on us for Nati's semi-appearance the night he traveled back home?

Yeah, that one and just the whole general manipulation of Nat.
I dunno. I just really liked my play in that game.

[MafiaSSK]

Unless you're talking about that day 1 push that scum-you made on us for Nati's semi-appearance the night he traveled back home?

Yeah, that one and just the whole general manipulation of Nat.
I dunno. I just really liked my play in that game.

That game shook my belief that Nati can read you well. I think it shook his confidence a little too. :/

I still don't understand what scum-you putting Nati through the wringer has to do with this game. I don't think there's a similar wringer you can use on orcinus or me. And if there is, then I don't understand why you'd want to draw a parallel to your scum game in this game.

I was talking about how Cabd was so certain of you? And how it reminded me of my push on Nat in AA?

[MafiaSSK]

Unless you're talking about that day 1 push that scum-you made on us for Nati's semi-appearance the night he traveled back home?

Yeah, that one and just the whole general manipulation of Nat.
I dunno. I just really liked my play in that game.

That game shook my belief that Nati can read you well. I think it shook his confidence a little too. :/

I still don't understand what scum-you putting Nati through the wringer has to do with this game. I don't think there's a similar wringer you can use on orcinus or me. And if there is, then I don't understand why you'd want to draw a parallel to your scum game in this game.

I was talking about how Cabd was so certain of you? And how it reminded me of my push on Nat in AA?

Hell if I can follow your thought process then. You're comparing Cabd's play to your AA game? And you're voting US?

Because I don't think Cabd would be that dumb. And I'm trusting Cabd because I think his opinion is right in this case. If it turns out wrong then it's probably a scum maneuver as I did in AA and I will lynch the shit out of him.

[MafiaSSK]

Hmm, that dos well enough for now.

UNVOTE:

Really? That WIFOM was enough?

[MafiaSSK]

Personally I find that answer the typical reaction and most unsatisfactory.

You just set it up perfectly, Congrats! This is exactly why you would kill FourTrouble, nobody expects it, it doesn't make any damn since for you to, so by default you must be town. Oh and don't forget the two other people on your team who wanted to lynch FT, another reason why you couldn't lynch Nacho.

My vote is staying on Mafia.

Your vote is not on Mafia.

As scum, I PR hunt for night kills, and barring that I either go after players I feel are threats to my team, or I go for unconventional kills. If you read through the first game that Cabd linked and find the Night 1 kill announcement you'll find a kill that matches the third criteria - my partner and I killed a player who claimed vanilla town at the end of day 1.

That's cool. Everyone always follows their same criteria every time. That totally happens.

[MafiaSSK]

Really guys? I go away for a day and now there's a Katsuki wagon? Really?

[MafiaSSK]

Hmm, that dos well enough for now.

UNVOTE:

Really? That WIFOM was enough?

sort of reminds me of scum being thrown by a perceived easy wagon not being so easy

interesting how his next post was to mediate his position on us and then lurk

open to rethinking ssk

Right. Because I think about when to lurk all of the time. I don't just get bored and not post. Yup. Totally.
But no. You're still scum. It's dumb that no one sees it, but you are.

And I meditated my postion on you? What? I haven't unvoted, I haven't had to rethink about you because you being scum just makes a lot of sense.

[MafiaSSK]

Berty, could you explain your reads more?

[MafiaSSK]

hes being too clear in his posts here is my problem with him, for an SSK lurker person. like he is not posting a ton of incomprehensible crap this game with master blaster type reasoned votes.

EXACTLY
a lurkfuck is a lurkfuck because a lurkfuck doesn't give a shit about looking town
that's why they're a lurkfuck
when a lurkfuck starts posting up a storm, it shows they have ulterior motives: especially when said lurkfuck has been on site as long as SSK has and has had an established playstyle for that long

i think last time when when a lurkfuck stopped lurkfucking empking was lyncher trying to lynch tammy

And here is where I start to have a fucking problem with everything:
STOP FUCKING SAYING THAT LURKING IS SCUMMY BUT WHEN I POST A LOT SAY THAT I'M ScuMMY TOO. Fucking stop.
I really fucking like Nat as a mod and the fact that I've gotten two prods already makes me very disapppointed in myself. Yes, I will post. Yes, I will go through lurking phases. That's just how I play. But that is not alignment-indicative. SO STOP.

[MafiaSSK]

By the way the reason why I'm asking for reasons for Bert's reads list on 1528 is because they are the easiest shit to make up as scum. Just because he gave three reasons doesn't excuse him from jack shit. Explain all of your reads that you put out there. Especially when your vote is already super weak.

[MafiaSSK]

ssk looks like too easy a vote, and i am still having a hard time believing his day 1 play could be scum

Thank you orci. I'm glad you think so. You get me.

[MafiaSSK]

why would him being more active be an honor to nati?

Because I've been really shitty to Nat recently in our hydras and in past Nat-modded games as well. And I really really respect Nat and so I don't want to lurk here, but even if you don't care about any of this whether I lurk or not has never ever been alignment indicative. Ever.

[MafiaSSK]

Look who came out of lurking after a few votes formed on him lmao

Guess fucking what Bert? I didn't post because there were a few votes on me. I posted because it was nearing yet another 48 hours and I hadn't posted. So I posted.

[MafiaSSK]

Guess fucking what Bert? I didn't post because there were a few votes on me. I posted because it was nearing yet another 48 hours and I hadn't posted. So I posted.

^scum manifesto so why are you lurking then after what you tried to do D1. what happened to "stepping it up because it's Nat's game"

Oh wait, that was just soap scum hmm?

BECAUSE OF FUCKING REAL LIFE. I STARTED LURKING IN ALL OF MY DAMN GAMES.
Fine, fuck it, lurking can be alignment indicative sometimes. But not for me. And definitely not here.
SO FUCKING STOP WITH YOUR SHITTY REASONING.

[MafiaSSK]

And no Cabd, I'm not claiming.

[MafiaSSK]

SSK, if you're not claiming, no blaming me day 3 when you're a bodybag.

I understood the implications Cabd. I feel it's better for me to not claim here.

[MafiaSSK]

wow what enthusiasm. and so do you believe him or not??????????????

Are you kidding? I'm smug as hell and Orcinus is going to eat crow. I told him on day 1 that Cabd was crumbing vig.

Also 1466. There was a reason I was calling it a gambit.

oh ok so you think it's just a gambit. got it

oh and does SSK freak out like this often

I don't really. I just don't see how after however many games I've played here how people still see me lurking (or not) as a tell. I just don't get it. And it's just started to piss me off.

[MafiaSSK]

...Then don't fucking claim something liable to get you shot at.

Maybe I wanted to be shot at.

If you don't want to play, then say so. I'm usually against replace-outs as a rule, but if you don't wish to play towards your wincondition of NOT being dead, so be it.

Cabd, he's joking.

[MafiaSSK]

wow well it feels fake dude

but it's that you tried so hard in the beginning that was weird too

also nacho agreed with my reason that you cared about how u were perceived in the beginning of the game and really went at it (that has nothin to do with lurking)....but you are asking me this, hmmm doesn't that feel weird to you huh

it shouldnt piss you off so easily because youre gonna be lynchbait when you expect us to accommodate your lurky scummy lurking ways

That's great. I'm glad, sincerely happy, that my actual anger feels fake to you.

But maybe you haven't been actually looking at the posts but only at the caps. I tried hard at the beginning because if there was one game where I wanted to not lurk it would be this game. This Nat modded game. And if you do only read caps then read this, BUT NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

Lurking isn't a scumtell. Sure it might be sort of anti-town. But it's definitely not to the extent that I'm automatic lynchbait. I always respond. I always give reads. I always try.

So stop trying to use lurking as a valid tell and grow up and make up your own reasoning.

[MafiaSSK]

idk ive never seen SSK just freak out after sitting around and deserving it, p sure in 1523 viscon at the end of d1 where he had lots of attention that he didnt go paranoia flake like this

You do realize how little I cared about that game right?

meh. he is overcompensating with noise and deflections for his own absences. he also doesnt seem to be gaining any influence or doing anything else other than being defensive about himself. all of his communication is faltering and nothing else.

No dude. I'm defending myself. And don't talk about being deflective, you still haven't given further explanation for your reads.

also explanation is like "omg stop wasting my energy by calling me out for lurking" - that's a misrep cos that's not the whole case on him lolz

Except it pretty much is lolz. Lurking is the main point of the case. Everything else are pretty much all impacts stemming from it. Feel free to point out what's not though.

Lurking isn't a scumtell. Sure it might be sort of anti-town. But it's definitely not to the extent that I'm automatic lynchbait.

I always respond. I always give reads. I always try.

So stop trying to use lurking as a valid tell

and grow up and make up your own reasoning.

uh huh, you are totally giving reads and trying today [sarcasm]

Way to strawman dude. Not only have I given plenty of reads all over the game, because you know the game isn't just Day 2, but you sidestep my argument of how lurking isn't a tell.
So do you wanna tell me how lurking is a tell? Or do you agree with me that it isn't?

and misrep cos read nacho's case - it's NOT just the lurking

And if it isn't, are you sheeping Nacho's case which all stems from me being a "lurkyfuck"?

[MafiaSSK]

Wow.

Who are your scumreads, SSK?

Selkies, somewhat you, and recently I could see how Goodfather could be scum.

[MafiaSSK]

You do realize how little I cared about that game right?

bullshit. you said yourself you were motivated to play against Nat cos you were opposite alignments. what a shallow thing to say

Was 1523 AA? Because AA was the one where I was on top of my game and motivated. Even there though I lurked like a bitch after D1.

Way to strawman dude. Not only have I given plenty of reads all over the game, because you know the game isn't just Day 2, but you sidestep my argument of how lurking isn't a tell.

if you think a strong start Day is all the game is about, and is a springboard so you can skip D2 and do nothing that day, you are sorely mistaken.

It's not even been half of Day 2 Bert, stop wigging out. I've given reads now. My vote's been on Selkies since the beginning. I've done shit.

Everything else are pretty much all impacts stemming from it. Feel free to point out what's not though.

Stop using "I'm lurky" as an excuse for not having to do anything useful today on d2.

Hey, look, you completely dodge the core of my point again. Do you see how Nacho's arguments are impacts from the point that I'm lurking? Do you see how me lurking or not is not a scumtell?
But even still I'm not using "I'm lurky" as an excuse for anything and you are beyond seriously misrepping me.

So do you wanna tell me how lurking is a tell? Or do you agree with me that it isn't?

wanna give me some reads instead of sidestepping by saying "im defending myself'

Bro, look at the post above yours.

Pedit: Because I got involved with defending myself. Because you started to piss me off. Because I'm procrastinating doing the billion actual real life things I all have to do today like studying for my Astro or Micro exam. Or doing work for my internship. Or writing cases for debate. I'm procrastinating. Because mafia is just a game. If real life comes first, then I'll stop playing it. But if there's work I don't want to do, then I'll post here. And then I might post again if I want to. I get involved. I like mafia.

[MafiaSSK]

VOTE: MafiaSSK

Your reaction just screams scum to me.

How so?

[MafiaSSK]

It seems forced. In the previous game we played in which you were a VT, you were lynched without putting up a fight. You were trying to lurk here to the best of my knowledge, until now you're fighting for your life. Which I'm not saying you shouldn't be doing, it just seems different from your normal town game in which you would laymdown and die. Overall, I would be happier to lynch Selkies, but you're the next best option.

I have a few things I want to say to this.
What game did we play together previously?
I was not trying to lurk here.
Why do you want to go with me over Selkies at this moment if I'm the "next best option"?

[MafiaSSK]

Guess fucking what Bert? I didn't post because there were a few votes on me. I posted because it was nearing yet another 48 hours and I hadn't posted. So I posted.

^scum manifesto so why are you lurking then after what you tried to do D1. what happened to "stepping it up because it's Nat's game"

Oh wait, that was just soap scum hmm?

BECAUSE OF FUCKING REAL LIFE. I STARTED LURKING IN ALL OF MY DAMN GAMES.
Fine, fuck it, lurking can be alignment indicative sometimes. But not for me. And definitely not here.
SO FUCKING STOP WITH YOUR SHITTY REASONING.

ive got like 2 bucks on this post making bert even more nervous about us haha

i agree with bert and here is why

normally townie anger is when they are being misunderstood or ignored on something they've been trying very hard to get across

ssk hasn't even been here. i dont understand how this anger would be justified in his mind. it doesn't seem in line with his other play

i read a scum ssk game that fery showed me. i feel like the distinguishing factor between his scum and town games is that his scum game is more aggressive, his town game much more apathetic

i think 1578 is in-line with that scum meta

confirming fery told me that cabd was a vig day 1 ><

Orci, you have to realize that this is something that I've just shrugged off and dealt with in a lot of the games that I've played here. And it's just here is where I broke. I just needed to let it all out. I wasn't raging because I was trying to AtE. I was angry because I'm honestly angry. And confused. I don't know how I can play and be seen as town. If I post a lot, scum. If I post not, scum.

Oh and for all you know I could have been here. Just reading the thread and not posting. Watching everyone post patronizing comments about that "lurkerfuck". Just because I don't post doesn't mean that I'm not reading posts.

But then you generalize my games based off of my general aggressiveness. Emotions change over time, orci. Sometimes I'm more aggressive sometimes I'm not. That's also not alignment indicative. I'm not some mafiabot.

Just level with me here, do you think I'm scum?

[MafiaSSK]

That I'm voting somebody later, and vigging the fuck out of SSK for the past few pages.

I mean that's super cool and probably fair. But why vig me?

[MafiaSSK]

Guess fucking what Bert? I didn't post because there were a few votes on me. I posted because it was nearing yet another 48 hours and I hadn't posted. So I posted.

^scum manifesto so why are you lurking then after what you tried to do D1. what happened to "stepping it up because it's Nat's game"

Oh wait, that was just soap scum hmm?

BECAUSE OF FUCKING REAL LIFE. I STARTED LURKING IN ALL OF MY DAMN GAMES.
Fine, fuck it, lurking can be alignment indicative sometimes. But not for me. And definitely not here.
SO FUCKING STOP WITH YOUR SHITTY REASONING.

ive got like 2 bucks on this post making bert even more nervous about us haha

i agree with bert and here is why

normally townie anger is when they are being misunderstood or ignored on something they've been trying very hard to get across

ssk hasn't even been here. i dont understand how this anger would be justified in his mind. it doesn't seem in line with his other play

i read a scum ssk game that fery showed me. i feel like the distinguishing factor between his scum and town games is that his scum game is more aggressive, his town game much more apathetic

i think 1578 is in-line with that scum meta

confirming fery told me that cabd was a vig day 1 ><

Orci, you have to realize that this is something that I've just shrugged off and dealt with in a lot of the games that I've played here. And it's just here is where I broke. I just needed to let it all out. I wasn't raging because I was trying to AtE. I was angry because I'm honestly angry. And confused. I don't know how I can play and be seen as town. If I post a lot, scum. If I post not, scum.

Oh and for all you know I could have been here. Just reading the thread and not posting. Watching everyone post patronizing comments about that "lurkerfuck". Just because I don't post doesn't mean that I'm not reading posts.

But then you generalize my games based off of my general aggressiveness. Emotions change over time, orci. Sometimes I'm more aggressive sometimes I'm not. That's also not alignment indicative. I'm not some mafiabot.

Just level with me here, do you think I'm scum?

yes i do

although i've never seen you AtE this hard

What's wrong with appealing to emotion though? I'm just defending myself.

[MafiaSSK]

i want an aronis flip to figure out what's going on with this (and also partially because i wanna pl him)

Spoiler:

Selkies(5): zMuffinman, Katsuki, kabooooomm, The Goodfather, Aronis

Selkies(4): zMuffinman, Katsuki, kabooooomm, The Goodfather
RossWilliam(2): FourTrouble, Aronis
Aronis(4): Cabd, notscience, RossWilliam, Bert

Aronis(5): Cabd, notscience, RossWilliam, Bert, Katsuki

RossWilliam(3): FourTrouble, Aronis, Bert
Aronis(5): Cabd, notscience, Katsuki, IdiotKing, Nachomamma8

RossWilliam(3): FourTrouble, Bert, Selkies
Aronis(6): Cabd, notscience, Katsuki, IdiotKing, Nachomamma8, MafiaSSK

RossWilliam(5): FourTrouble, Bert, Selkies, Nachomamma8, notscience
Aronis(4): Cabd, Katsuki, IdiotKing, MafiaSSK

RossWilliam(4): FourTrouble, Bert, notscience, Katsuki
Aronis(4): Cabd, IdiotKing, MafiaSSK, Nachomamma8

RossWilliam(3): FourTrouble, notscience, Katsuki
Aronis(4): Cabd, IdiotKing, MafiaSSK, Nachomamma8

RossWilliam(7): FourTrouble, notscience, Katsuki, Selkies, Aronis, Bert, Idiotking
Aronis(3): Cabd, MafiaSSK, Nachomamma8

the selkies wagon is another wagon i wanna go back and look at when i can be bothered (lol not happening before tomorrow night)

also have icky feelings about mafiassk lately. he completely dropped his d1 push on me (which he seemed rather confident about), the response to the lurking stuff felt like a massive overreaction and i don't think ssk-town says "it's cool and fair that you wanna vig me" - i think that felt like a "oh shit people are calling me scum for being aggressive, better not react aggressively to that" sorta thing. i dunno

Yeah, I was pretty confident on my read on you but I think Day 2 has shown my reasoning to be invalid on you and so I've dropped it. I could see you being town now.
My response to the lurking attack, if you take it as solely a response from this game, could definitely be seen as an overreaction, I'll give you that too.
SSK-town does say yeah go and vig, because ah fuck it.

I'm a doctor.

There I said it. At least now once mafia kill me, maybe someone will be able to watch me or track who killed me.
But yeah it was pretty much a doomed if I do doomed if I don't. I'm pretty much dying tonight anywho.

[MafiaSSK]

And here is where I start to have a fucking problem with everything:
STOP FUCKING SAYING THAT LURKING IS SCUMMY BUT WHEN I POST A LOT SAY THAT I'M ScuMMY TOO. Fucking stop.

i never said that lurking was scummy
i just said it wasn't town

So then why vote me?

[MafiaSSK]

Wow.

Who are your scumreads, SSK?

Selkies, somewhat you, and recently I could see how Goodfather could be scum.

why

Selkies because I feel like they could really be playing on an apathetic town.
Aronis because he hasn't really seemed to have any meaningful content, just fluff.
Goodfather, because his reasons are all bs and he seems to do a lot of bandwagon hopping.

[MafiaSSK]

Also, Cabd, shoot Katsuki. Please. You'd be doing us all a big favor. I'll give you all the change in my pocket if you do.

i second this

if we massclaim, katsuki goes first, then we popcorn from there

fery and i are discussing ssk right now. i think we might do a final meta dive on ssk tonight regarding his fakeclaiming.

It's all on my wiki. Every game every alignment. Enjoy.

[MafiaSSK]

See, this is what happens when people go so far against policy lynching. It encourages people to just not play, period. You can't kill them, because then you're not scumhunting, which means they aren't incentive to play any harder. Which means you can't get any reads on them, which means you CAN'T scumhunt. It effectively limits the town's targets to people who are active, giving people who AREN'T active a free pass. That just sucks the life right out of Mafia. I don't care if the meta changes, I don't care if people start looking for different kinds of tells, THIS is the real scourge of MafiaScum, and it will kill the game.

As it sits, we would not be able to get a good read of Katsuki's play until D4 or D5.

This is bullshit.

That's entirely too late in the game, because we'll be focusing on everybody else. So a policy lynch/policy vig is our ONLY way to avoid that. Sure, it may be sub-optimal for any given game, but in the aggregate it would improve the play quality of the site as a whole. So for heaven's sake, Cabd, shoot Katsuki.

How about you get your head out of your ass, stop trying to meta-scumhunt, and focus on this game. Katsuki has posted plenty. You think he's scum? Look in his posts and find a case. It's possible.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm going to hold back my surprise at our two habitual lurkers being upset at my anti-lurker pro-policylynch rant post.

Oh shut the fuck up. Stop pretending that we're some piece of shit scum on the street. Katsuki and I both have quality posts and often times have good strategies for catching scum. We just choose to do it a different (and rule-accepted) rate. We're still playing the game. We're still members of this town.
So fucking stop with the lurker-hate. Stop with the policy lynching. Stop being a dumbass.

[MafiaSSK]

We don't know that you're members of the town, and you really, really aren't playing the game if you do nothing but lurk.

Oh buddy boy. You are just so so so wrong. I can not even believe how much plain ignorance is in this post. And coming from an '08er at that.

You don't know that we're members of this town? Then explain the wagons on us.
You think we're not playing the game? Explain the hundreds of posts from us.
You think we're doing nothing but lurk? Explain the votes from us.

Stop with the lurker hate. And get in the game. Do some actual scum-hunting.

[MafiaSSK]

The wagons on you could be town-led. Are you implying that wagons are exclusively a tool for scum?
Most of your posts are complete shit.
Votes can be done in prod-dodges.

No, you really don't get what I was saying.

I was not at all saying that wagons are made by scum, but nice misrep. What I'm saying that if any wagon exists on us at all, then that means people of this town know that we exist, know about our presence in this game.

Our posts are not definitely not "complete shit". Go look at them. Go see that most of them have solid scumhunting content in there. And if not that, then they have connections being made with other players. That you can analyze.
But even if they were a hundred posts about fluffy nonsense, you could still look at the tone of the posts. There are plenty of ways of scumhunting. You just have to know them. And apparently you don't.

True, votes can be done in prod dodges.
But, first off, they're hardly prod dodges if they contain a vote.
Secondly, those votes are direct connections with another player. Then they show up on vote counts? And you know what you can do with vote counts right? Vote count analysis. A common enough method of scumhunting that everyone should know what it is. Everyone can use it. Even you. So you can.
The votes are still votes, they're still content.

You are wrong. So stop.

[MafiaSSK]

I think it's cute how your most substantive posts (read: only) have been defensive rage-posts.

Oh, do you want me to get into what substantive means? We can go back into that. I'm back into being active in this game.
And at least the debate we had last time were about actual posts in this game rather than fucking meta.
If you wanna call me scum Idiotking, if you want to see me dead, give me a case, rather than going to this lurker bullshit.

[MafiaSSK]

No, I'm on my phone. I also don't care for his future long term meta and you're suggsting we lynch him to make a long term statement that his or her play is not ok

Hence the ??!!!!!

Yes and this is why site meta is shit right now

Also I'm suggesting to lynch him because he's being townread for adhering to his town meta, which apparently is to be an arrogant useless shitsack. I am not ok with this reason for town reading people

This is going to sound sarcastic, but it's not, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that my lurking makes you think I'm an arrogant useless shitsack. That type of anger really shouldn't be in a game. We should be playing to have fun. I'll try and be more active if that would help, I guess.
Sorry.

[MafiaSSK]

Katsuki, stay! It's okay, it'll be fine. Please?

[MafiaSSK]

Just give it some time and relax. I got like this too. It'll be fine.

[MafiaSSK]

Also why is me giving you a reads list so important to you? That's not the way I've chosen to play this game, and thus that is not ow m going to play.

What's the reason for playing this game the way you are?

There's no definite reason. I just felt like playing the game this way.
A funny answer would be in Natirasha's honor, but unfortunately that doesn't hold much truth to it.

Do you think you could play the game more honestly? Give more reads. The fact that you've blatantly disagreed to give reads is disturbing. Especially for you.

[MafiaSSK]

You know guys, the silver linings playbook

The silver lining is that muffin's probably town for that Generic-esque tantrum

If it's not him...

Vote: IdiotKing

Time to figure you out next

Oh look one of Muffinz points held true. Bert just joined Nacho's vote because of the flow of the game.

Wanna give reasoning?

[MafiaSSK]

oh yeah i wasn't around when it was being discussed but i agree with whoever said mass claim today is a good idea

That was me.


Neighbors, Vig, Doctor. Expecting at most one more PR for town.

So are we doing this?

Deadline's in 4 days. Think there's still enough time?

[MafiaSSK]

Great guys. Now we have three wagons of 2, at 4 days until deadline.

I suggest the Selkies wagon be the one to take off.

[MafiaSSK]

you and bert both, this is the game I'm going to link to when you claim to be able to read me in the future.

And I swear if I have to move off GF and he flips scum you will never hear the end of it.

If the GF wagon gains steam, I'm down for it. You're just scum too.

[MafiaSSK]

I really feel like we shouldn't be letting this wagon to less than 2 days. Can we end this soon so that there's no flashwagon?

[MafiaSSK]

at the time nacho's post style was new to me.

Many consecutive messages in short succession; lots of what seemed like inside jokes that i couldn't understand; and lackluster reads

If you want to know my role so badly i'll claim and just let the cards fall where they may.

i'm a town nurse/back up doctor

Woo I am so so dead tonight.
But at least town will still maybe have a doc.

[MafiaSSK]

Scumdoc, town nurse, town vig.... Sounds utterly like something nati would do.

What the hell, Cabd? I'm scum? Why, exactly?

[MafiaSSK]

Scumdoc, town nurse, town vig.... Sounds utterly like something nati would do.

What the hell, Cabd? I'm scum? Why, exactly?

your role pm reads scum

I dunno, that claim kinda makes sense in retrospect from GF.

:s

Granted it could also be perfectly as well that scum is using my claim to clear GF at least some.

But that's probably only if Selkies turns out town. Which they won't.

[MafiaSSK]

Granted it could also be perfectly as well that scum is using my claim to clear GF at least some

considering he was softing it (or at least severely limiting what he could fake claim) well before you claimed doc, i don't think so

See, I have never understood softclaims. They just go right past my head. But alright.

[MafiaSSK]

i just realised you never claimed a n1 protect

You're never going to guess.
Alright, I'll tell you.
Selkies. Because, ffery.

[MafiaSSK]

i just realised you never claimed a n1 protect

You're never going to guess.
Alright, I'll tell you.
Selkies. Because, ffery.

But this was before I realized just how batshit scummy they were. I liked them Day 1. But not anymore.

[MafiaSSK]

I think I'll trust Cabd here in the spirit of NatMod. And if this goes like AA, well then, yeah.

VOTE: Selkies

Prove your towniness, Selkies!

this is your first d2 post

tru. And yeah, I've kept that vote ever since. Cabd gave me an opposing viewpoint that I believed more and more as the day went on.
Why would I just go with it right after I protected Selkies?
A. The read wasn't strong. But then why would I protect Selkies? Because Selkies was a townread and was at least giving content when no one else would.
B. Cabd, who also had been townreading Selkies, was seemingly significantly into his vote on Selkies.
C. Selkies never did prove their towniness.

Ok,

Unvote

Vote MafiaSSK

That is total and utter bullshit. You voted Selkies twice early on, and never stated a townread on them. You started D2 swinging immediately, by that I mean you voted Selkies within 1 page of the start of D2 and stayed for pretty much forever. If you were just coming off of protecting him,

why would you do that?

This is explained above. But this vote is all types of wrong, and I'm honestly starting to think you might be scum, IK.

[MafiaSSK]

But screw it, I'm going to try to respond to them anyway.

A. The read wasn't strong. But then why would I protect Selkies? Because Selkies was a townread and was at least giving content when no one else would.

This would only make sense if you had absolutely no stronger town reads. Although from my reading you didn't state one, you also went completely incognito about halfway through D1. Now if you were still paying attention (like you say you did), then you would pretty much have to have a stronger town read. For example, Cabd. You apparently thought positively enough of Cabd to IMMEDIATELY sheep his vote against Selkies. This stinks of contradiction.

Cabd was a townread. Just not a stronger townread, but i'll get to that in B.

B. Cabd, who also had been townreading Selkies, was seemingly significantly into his vote on Selkies.

And this means... what? Isn't this only helpful to you if you had a townread on Cabd? And if you did,

then why wouldn't you have protected Cabd instead?

I did, indeed. Cabd was a close second but lost on the activity front.

C. Selkies never did prove their towniness.

Unless you're dead,

that is impossible.

Dude. It's one day until deadline. Selkies is the lynch. Stop trying to make a flashwagon happen. Especially a dumb one.

[MafiaSSK]

I'm not fucking fake claiming. I'm telling the truth. My reasoning for Selkies was shit, fine. But it's the truth. I'm not the best player ever, nonetheless the best doc ever.

Can we lynch selkies now though? I was wrong. Selkies is scum.

[MafiaSSK]

Why are they more scum than you?

Because you only think I'm scum because we disagree on the fundamentals of mafia.
Selkies has actual reasoning behind them.

[MafiaSSK]

Why are they more scum than you?

Because you only think I'm scum because we disagree on the fundamentals of mafia.
Selkies has actual reasoning behind them.

Oh and a wagon. When you know we're one day from deadline. Flashwagons are bad!

[MafiaSSK]

Why are they more scum than you?

Because you only think I'm scum because we disagree on the fundamentals of mafia.
Selkies has actual reasoning behind them.

And those reasons are...?

So my current original reasoning on Selkies comes down to a really one point:
Selkies was seemingly taking advantage of an apathetic town.
So part of the reasoning on my protect on Selkies was that they actually posted shit, right? There wasn't a lot of meaningful content Day 1, and when there was I feel like Selkies was dictating the general direction of it. Then, and this goes sort off of some of the reasons Bert posted, but Selkies pushes were weak and they weren't actively poking and prodding people as much as you would expect them too. Because they were in control. That's the only way I can see this.

The rest I feel like are adequately described by Bert and in detail. And yes, I am agreeing with his case. And yes I know you have a problem with that. And no that's not a valid reason to think I'm scum.

[MafiaSSK]

I was hoping his case was more than just "Eh, Cabd says so."

How have we never played a game together? Because with the amount that I personally dislike you at right now, I think I would remember you.

[MafiaSSK]

i just realised you never claimed a n1 protect

You're never going to guess.
Alright, I'll tell you.
Selkies. Because, ffery.

terminal hives. Why didn't you protect Cabd? He was dropping megaton crumbs.

How do you not know this about me yet? Me and crumbs=no. I can't drop them. I can't pick them up.

[MafiaSSK]

Actually in the AA game you crumbed your fake claim character.

Fun fact. I think I only crumb when I'm scum.

[MafiaSSK]

i just realised you never claimed a n1 protect

You're never going to guess.
Alright, I'll tell you.
Selkies. Because, ffery.

terminal hives. Why didn't you protect Cabd? He wass dropping megaton crumbs.

How do you not know this about me yet? Me and crumbs=no. I can't drop them. I can't pick them up.

I think you've said it twice in this game, but I haven't noticed lack of crumb awareness in our other games.

I never pick up on crumbs though. And when I do crumb it's never a soft crumb.

[MafiaSSK]

That still doesn't explain why you wouldn't protect me if you were towning me so hard you were willing to follow my reads on everyone.

Cabd. It wasn't because I had a townread on you that I followed you. It was the townread and the fact that you have that insane amount of experience that you do with ffery and that you sounded so certain of the vote.

[MafiaSSK]

Interesting development
VOTE: ssk

This is dumb. Half of the wagon on me are just tag a long votes.

This is why we don't allow lynches to go past the 48 hour mark.

[MafiaSSK]

fery and I are here, not hammering

I'm at L-2. Same as you.

[MafiaSSK]

SSK votes out of self-preservation (me or you mentality, nothing subtle about it) to make this lynch -1. Then someone hammers at deadline as this is the largest wagon.That is the potential I see in this playing out.

- Bert

P-edit: btw that's Lynch -2 now.

See I really really would like to see IK die. He annoys me to no end. But I think he's town or at least he hasn't pinged me as scum. And this just seems like a rushed, bad wagon.
At least mine has some, albeit wrong, reasoning behind it.

[MafiaSSK]

At least mine has some, albeit wrong, reasoning behind it.

what reasoning is there? that you're lurking or you made a controversial choice as doc, the former to which you agree is not alignment indicative, the latter being WIFOM? both are easily torn down as cases

your wagon was quick too

it's really you or him at this point, unless you think a GF wagon is possible

there's also the angle of - lose a potential PR or lose a potential neighbor. how are you more deserving of a vote, and what is your vote on Selkies there for at this point?

Because Selkies is still scum. It's dumb, almost scummy, that you've made this wagon happen. Selkies was good. Idiotking is not.
I want a Selkies lynch, I think it will be more beneficial to town. It'll show connections. There's been thought put into it. Selkies has given reads.

But yes I am more deserving of a vote than IdiotKing even though I'm still town. Because we're both town. But you're doing this lynch because you can. But I believe we can still make Selkies happen. You just have to put your vote back on to this person you thought was scum not two pages ago. We can do this.

[MafiaSSK]

Can you at least tell me why you think Idiotking is scum? Convince me, maybe?

[MafiaSSK]

But yes I am more deserving of a vote than IdiotKing even though I'm still town.

doctor > neighbor

That's fair.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah. Fine. VOTE: Idiotking

[MafiaSSK]

Since it looks like I am today's lynch, you people need to look long and hard and the guys lynching me. NS and Bert especially have been playacting as a "town block" since forever. They've also been doing this with Katsuki/Guyett. You people seriously need to examine this and consider the possibility that at least 2 of them are scum, because other than Katsuki, they haven't gotten anywhere near as much heat as they should have.

I agree with this for what it's worth.

[MafiaSSK]

obviously.

that's a confidence factor in my top group because I know that at least my SSK read is swimming against the current a little.

I like swimming.

So would you approve of an Idiotking lynch today?

[MafiaSSK]

I think a lot of people could agree on a Goodfather lynch. I myself, would feel more comfortable on Goodfather than Idiotking.

[MafiaSSK]

I think a lot of people could agree on a Goodfather lynch. I myself, would feel more comfortable on Goodfather than Idiotking.

Nope. I forgot. He claimed Nurse. Ignore this.

[MafiaSSK]

obviously.

that's a confidence factor in my top group because I know that at least my SSK read is swimming against the current a little.

I like swimming.

So would you approve of an Idiotking lynch today?

No. Not unless the alternative is a random lynch.

So who do you see as being the current reasonable alternative?

SSK do you see Nati designing a normal mini game with both a doc and a backup?

Yup.

[MafiaSSK]

Aronis.

Or me.

I said reasonable. Aronis doesn't have any votes on him and you only have one.

As for more evidence as to how there could be a doc and nurse. Look at Nat's first mini normal where there were two godfathers. I think Nat's not afraid of replication, but he'll always balance it. So if there is indeed a backup, scum will almost undoubtedly have a strongman (which is also a role that Nat loves).

[MafiaSSK]

Aronis.

Or me.

I said reasonable. Aronis doesn't have any votes on him and you only have one.

As for more evidence as to how there could be a doc and nurse. Look at Nat's first mini normal where there were two godfathers. I think Nat's not afraid of replication, but he'll always balance it. So if there is indeed a backup, scum will almost undoubtedly have a strongman (which is also a role that Nat loves).

You think another speedwagon can't happen?

I don't want another speedwagon to happen. I think it can happen, but only if there's a strong force behind it (say you and Cabd).

[MafiaSSK]

I do think a Goodfather lynch actually might be our best option and yes I remember that he claimed nurse. But I feel like a Goodfather lynch would have several things going for it.

1. The two main town leaders, Bert and Selkies, both have him on their scum lists.
2. Goodfather hasn't been the most active and so by eliminating him, we keep the town slightly more active.
3. Lynching a nurse would near-confirm me as my role, meaning Cabd may not die tonight and more importantly we definitely have a confirmed town in D3.

So yeah, let's make this happen.
VOTE: Goodfather

[MafiaSSK]

So you're ok with an IK lynch. You think he's scum?

No. I thought he was annoying and otherwise town but I want this day to end so I compromised. I think we can do Goodfather though.

[MafiaSSK]

10 hours since the last post. 8.5 hours to nightfall. What the hell.

This is why there should never be a rushed lynch.

[MafiaSSK]

Pre-emptively explaining why I die when he's supposed to be protecting me.

No shit I'm going to be protecting you no matter what, I was just explaning that when I do, it might not work.

But you do realize that they won't even have to use a strongman, once again presuming they have one, if you lynch me, right? I am a town doctor and if we lynch Goodfather, we can confirm that there is at least a doctor in the game. Then we can have one at least near-confirmed town Day 3. No matter what. So get your vote off of me and onto Goodfather.

[MafiaSSK]

UNVOTE: notscience
VOTE: MafiaSSK

Why are you going with the doc? Of all possible wagons?
Could you at least tell me how I could be scum?

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, fuck it.

Unvote

Vote Nacho

It's really crap to go MIA right at the end of a day phase.

What are you just going to vote everyone whose voted you?

VOTE: Idiotking

[MafiaSSK]

I literally got back a half hour ago. Calm yourselves.

I protected Cabd.

[MafiaSSK]

Does roleblocker make sense in this setup?

With a vig and doc and nurse? I would say so.

[MafiaSSK]

My vote's going to Aronis!
VOTE: Aronis

[MafiaSSK]

I've already PoE'd the game down.... I'm extremely confident in nacho flipping scum and would like selkies flipped to analyse do some good VCA

So don't you figure for a Day 3, it'd be beneficial to find out about the neighbors before lylo? Aka lynch Aronis?

[MafiaSSK]

So what I'm seeing from selkies and what I'm seeing from Guyett and vaguely from others is that Aronis can be seen as scum. The only thing holding us back from lynching him is that he's a neighbor. That shouldn't be a reason. Especially at Day 3. Let's just get this lynch out of the way before we're at one day to deadline once again scrambling. Because that would suck.

[MafiaSSK]

I think we probably are all together. It's hard to call Nacho for sure due to not a lot of data.

Meant you and Cabd as a scumteam potentially. Cabd tossing that theory of me-scum out because of the lack of a NK is just like tossing out random stuff to see if it goes well with others, and that's while seeming to have no other real suspicions of his own today.

I also wish he had revealed what his intentions were during the steps he took during that super-awkward "dance." Doesn't it seem really inconclusive?

If we were a scum team, Cabd would probably have bussed me, with my full blessing. That's actually a pretty minor point for town-Cabd though. As scum, I don't believe he'd concoct a voluntary fake-claim that makes his continued survival a question mark.

I wouldn't expect Cabd to give up anything specific about what he's looking for in a dance. It's an arms race.

Actually, if you'll recall, Cabd did vote you at the start of D2 and then stopped without any type of reasoning for or against.

[MafiaSSK]

So this is boring.

Let's have a discussion.

I say Aronis is scum. You say what?

[MafiaSSK]

guys let's vote guyett

ew.

[MafiaSSK]

Why ew? Does nacho's Guyett vote taste bad?

Not taste, silly, it smells bad. It smell like Nacho released a fart after eating lots of weeks old rotten cheese.

But I mean that's just the general stink of crossvotes at this day and time. They're rather weird, but they are usually town v scum and I believe if this were to be the case here, Nacho would be the one who would be more likely to be scum.

PEDIT: ROTTEN BLUE CHEESE MIXED WITH ROTTEN EGGS. AFTER EATING A STEAK. THERE. I SAID IT.

[MafiaSSK]

They're rather weird, but they are usually town v scum and I believe if this were to be the case here, Nacho would be the one who would be more likely to be scum.

nacho hates it when you say things like this

SSK hates smelly things so it all works out in the end, eh?

[MafiaSSK]

My vote's going on Aronis still.

VOTE: Aronis

[MafiaSSK]

Just run the paraphrase by Nat first, and it'll be fine.

[MafiaSSK]

That is very weird about SSK/cabd. It makes sense that SSK protected cabd the night with no kill, but that still doesn't explain why SSK has not been targeted.

The only thing that makes sense is that SSK is a mafia doc and the scum no kill gambited to buy him credit.

That still doesn't explain how cabd's kill failed. He could be lying, but I am not so sure about that

Or you know scum's setting us up. Because I have, literally, no idea why both of us are still alive or why scum would choose to kill Bert.

[MafiaSSK]

How is that not something to talk about?

outed doc's don't live very long in my limited experience, especially if there are no watchers or trackers to keep track of them. Nor any other town pr for that matter. I don't understand why the mafia would target professed VT's. If you can explain it to me I'd appreciate it.

My guess is you thinks its all a gamble that the mafia team is making to make you suspicious.

Because that is the only reason and it's a damn good one by the mafia because it makes sense for town to try to lynch me. Because I can do nothing about it besides keep on protecting on.

But I'm town.