Mini 1537: ATTACK ON TITAN (Game Over!)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm basically an innocent child

i dare scum to try and lynch me

[zMuffinMan]

a couple assumptions i'm making about this setup based on my role:

- setup is single faction, 10:3 (not explaining this, don't ask)
- scum don't have day talk (see above)
- one of the three main characters is scum (mod insistence that flavour has nothing to do with alignment has me thinking this is likely the case, as does something else - and if i had to guess which, i'd say eren)
- scum probably already know my character flavour. not that it really matters

also, plum is scum

Vote: Plum

bro might be scum, too. and kaze

[zMuffinMan]

@f16,

Why shouldn't we lynch you today, Paschendale?

this was where i started thinking plum scum

although none of plum's earlier posts were all that great, this is just the type of question i hate the most. i've never seen a town player ask this sort of question, and i can recall examples of scum players using it (like, most recently, pa in FEA)

also didn't like #180. i'm pretty sure you've read imperishable night, or at least skimmed the important parts. how do you not see similarities to my play re varsoon/pie there?

[zMuffinMan]

This isn't even remotely plausible. Scum don't and can't have the Weak modifier; they are Weak by default.

oh, also, i don't really get this part

[zMuffinMan]

If weak means not having gear, than a goon would necessarily have it. It's an obvious lie that only town could have it. And one that you dutifully repeat.

i highly doubt there are "goons" in the traditional sense in this game. when a "town vanilla" is essentially a 1-shot commuter, i doubt goons are just goons in the sense you're thinking

also, i'm thinking this is a rather power-heavy game, so i doubt there are any weak scum. so i could easily see scum not knowing about the weak modifier, and i could easily understand kagami thinking this as town

tbh the mod announcement actually has me thinking scum

didn't

know about the weak modifier, and that was a sort of intervention to stop people being read as town unfairly. normally a mod wouldn't interject with something like that...

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

Obviously, these are divorced from their context

a quick scan over some of those games suggests you're right about this! those are divorced of their context

[zMuffinMan]

You're right that plum's is really out of the blue, whereas most these instances are provoked.

tbh, even without looking at it like that, the tone of the question is just off. "unprovoked" is sort of right, but it's more like, "what is the point of that question?"

i think you're getting too caught up in that anyway. it's really not that big a part of why i think plum is scum (it was the catalyst, i guess, but i really don't like any of plum's posts outside of it either)

also

If she had really figured what weak meant, there's very little scum motivation in revealing that, and I also see little scum motivation in overstating her knowledge if she hadn't.

i don't see your point here. plum-scum may have really known what was being hinted at from the discussion taking place, so "revealing" this is just a truth statement that's really rather null, if anything. i mean, i suppose she

could

have just said nothing about it, but it's a far cry from being any sort of alignment tell.

zMuffinman, what are your thoughts about Pasch?

prob town

[zMuffinMan]

bro :<

why are you scum this game? :<

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin has a better chance than raw probability to be town

i agree with this statement

This isn't a good reason to town read muffin.

i agree. you should town read me because i'm town. reasons are for newbies

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't like 256, either. also point (2) of that post isn't strictly true, either, since i don't think BRO was playing to be lynched D2 prior to the point where nacho and i were like, "lololol all aboard the bus train," because bus trains are a thing

i somewhat understand the sentiment in 265 and it's rather null tbh. a lot of people are starting to say the same sort of thing to me lately and i think i'm more lucky than good at scum, so *shrug* i only have like a 50% winrate as scum and some people think i'm good at it

i'm not really reading bro as scum for individual posts. it's more a body-of-work thing and the underlying tone in the way he responds to things

[zMuffinMan]

i've skimmed over some of his completed scum games (i think sabotage and 165), and i played with him as scum in bork's imperishable night

We'll see muffin.

it's ok. the longer scum keep me alive, the more fucked they're gonna be. i imagine i won't live long even if i'm shit at finding them

[zMuffinMan]

I was being intentionally scummy that entire game

oh, then i actually didn't realise

are you doing the same thing here?

[zMuffinMan]

I was parroting muffin. He sounds smart.

i'd probably want to lynch you for this if i was an advocate for LAL

[zMuffinMan]

he could be scum. i'm not particularly interested in lynching him today, though. ask me again if we're all alive D3.

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin: what you're seeing is why my mislynch rate is over 50% (I think; it might actually be a bit lower), but also why Death's Diner is the only game I've ever lost while not getting mislynched. I'm a fairly hyper-aggressive player, especially when I start getting a sense of the gamestate early.

do you have a town read on me?

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote
Vote: BRO

[zMuffinMan]

someone put f16 at l-1 and i'll quickhammer. go

[zMuffinMan]

It's an effort post that comes way too soon

tbh, even though people keep talking about #92, i haven't bothered to read it til now. agree with this. could maybe see this coming a little later after more people had posted, but it was way too early

[zMuffinMan]

who is talking about plum-scum other than me?

everyone else seems to think she's town for <insert shit reason>

[zMuffinMan]

we are less likely to lynch someone we like

i don't think i'm particularly likeable but i don't get lynched

i think people read my posts and don't feel particularly good about lynching someone who's obviously "special"

so i get sympathy avoidance or something

i also don't determine who i want to lynch based on who i like. maybe i'm weird.

[zMuffinMan]

In case it's unclear

it was very unclear. thanks for clarifying

[zMuffinMan]

unvote

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think bro is town but there's too many bro votes atm and i'm not really reading anything so i dunno why there's too many bro votes atm

[zMuffinMan]

oh yeah

i haven't really read anything in the last 10 or so pages yet and i prob won't until some time tonight (depending on when i get home)

if anyone is close to lynch, do me a favour and wait a bit before it happens

ty

[zMuffinMan]

yeah and i hadn't read anything when i posted 2 pages ago either

[zMuffinMan]

paschendale is town

[zMuffinMan]

he's my mason partner and i day-copped him to be extra sure

[zMuffinMan]

(he's actually town)

[zMuffinMan]

(i still haven't read anything but i know it to be true in my heart of hearts)

[zMuffinMan]

you're cute

[zMuffinMan]

:> then try to lynch me

[zMuffinMan]

really? coz i don't know what i'm trying to do, so that makes one of us that knows, i guess

[zMuffinMan]

Btw, I think you're right that Eren is scum. I can't help but wonder how you knew, but meh

magic

[zMuffinMan]

my reads are like... the complete opposite of tammy's

hmm

[zMuffinMan]

Never gonna give you up: Bert, Kagami, Myko, Paschendale

Don't really wanna let you down: pieguy, ActionDan, Brian?

Kinda wanna run around and desert you: 2 of {Plum, F16, BRO} (less sure about BRO - he actually might be town :/), 1 of {Tammy, Kaze} (prob Kaze, dunno, not something i wanna look into too deeply today)

[zMuffinMan]

actually maybe switch brian and bro around

(i'm not actually reading brian's posts)

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno why people are reading plum as town
i dunno why people are reading paschendale as scum

i dunno why my reads are so opposite everyone else's

[zMuffinMan]

i could explain

but first you tell me why you think paschendale is scum (because i really don't get the scum reads) and why plum is town (because while i have a vague understanding of why some people might be town reading her, i want to hear your specific reasons)

[zMuffinMan]

actually i'm feeling rather generous right now, so i'll talk about why paschendale is town

first things first, the angles of attack this game. i think (maybe - because i haven't really seen anyone articulate why they think paschendale is scum) people might be reading him as scum for the whole attack on kagami/plum for the "weak" stuff at the start of the game... but i actually thought the concern there looked townish. it wasn't like a "sheep general opinion" thing and the way he was coming at it looked like town-motivated thought processes (even though i thought he was completely wrong). i get this whole genuinely-trying-to-figure-shit-out vibe from his posts about this.

i'm also just reading the general tone of his posts as town and i like his responses to people calling him scum. i also don't particularly like the composition of his wagon.

only thing i haven't really liked about him so far is the way he jumped onto BRO (which was rather fucking weak) but i'm currently thinking that doesn't mean a whole lot

thing is, i'm aware that none of this stuff is going to change anyone's mind but i don't wanna lynch paschendale today. if it does happen and he flips town, i'm not going to be all too sad about it because i think i have the game mostly figured out anyway, but i don't want it to happen. i suppose there's always a chance i'm wrong (*gasp* it's been known to happen occasionally) but whatever.

I hate you right now muffin because you were just scum with empire and he probably told you that the best way to get me to doubt a read is to make me explain it.

empire wasn't even really in marketplace (he stopped playing altogether some time early in the game, don't remember when) and when he was posting in the QT it wasn't really about game-relevant stuff so much as "o shit i hate being scum i hope people don't see through me"

[zMuffinMan]

also i don't really care about your plum town read (i'm probably not going to get any traction there today anyway, but i'm still going to continue talking about it until i'm enough of a thorn in her side that she has to kill me), talk to me about your paschendale scum read

[zMuffinMan]

oh and another thing i like about paschendale is that he's kinda just... doing his own thing

if that makes sense

[zMuffinMan]

also, more re: angles of attack from paschendale. the kagami/plum rolefishing stuff is what made me think town initially, and reading over it again i still think that

everything about it, from the tone of the posts to the sort of confidence he had in his position to the way he looked like he was trying to uncover the truth all looked town

*shrug*

i'm going back over ISOs atm trying to find anything that explains that paschendale scum reads and i can't find shit

that and the composition of the wagon make me think it's a horrible wagon

pedit: written before the above post

[zMuffinMan]

That whole role fishing argument? That jus t sounds like pure fabricated bs

i wanna know

why

you think it's fabricated

coz i don't see it

He called you level-headed though and playing to that in this game, why didn't you comment on that the way you did me remarking that I was parroting you on the no day talk thing cuz you were smart

i am fairly level-headed, though. i don't consider myself smart. i do a lot of dumb things, but at least i'm level-headed about it!

(also, it was a joke and i don't have time to make jokes about every post in this thread - i can try, though, if you think it will make a difference!)

[zMuffinMan]

what's white and black and re(a)d all over?

NOT BRIAN'S QUOTE WALLS, THAT'S FOR FUCKING SURE

yeah i don't think i'm cut out for this joke thing

forgive me if i don't make them about every post

[zMuffinMan]

I'm sure as hell not keen on getting lynched immediately after having been specially requested to come into the game

what did f16 say when he specially requested you come into the game?

[zMuffinMan]

and why haven't you talked to f16 about his thoughts on the game yet?

[zMuffinMan]

no

[zMuffinMan]

actually yeah i can. i have other games to post in. but since you said that, no

[zMuffinMan]

remind me what your reads are, kaze

i want a good laugh

[zMuffinMan]

and i'm scum because paschendale is scum? or independently of that read?

[zMuffinMan]

y

[zMuffinMan]

good luck ever getting me lynched this game, i wish you the best of luck

truly

there's nothing i want more this game than seeing you try to lynch me

but i don't think you have the balls to even try

[zMuffinMan]

stuff

there are certain things i look for in scum-bro and town-bro and i'm seeing more things i expect from town-bro than scum-bro

i don't have any intention of delving any further into this at the moment, partially because i'm not all that confident about it and partially because i don't see a point

[zMuffinMan]

If Pasch is scum, Pasch/Pie/Muffin team makes sense

Muffin is a bit weaker, but he doesn't make sense as scum except for his hard-defense of Pasch

actually i don't like this, because if he thinks paschendale is scum, he should basically think i'm more conftown than an IC for this

but whatever

[zMuffinMan]

sure

[zMuffinMan]

i'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that's not what he meant

[zMuffinMan]

for mastin's eyes only

mastin, are you scum? you can tell me, i promise i won't tell anyone. respond in a spoiler tag like this so no one else reads it

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin doesn't know anything

wow

i mean... i don't think all that highly of my intelligence but when you come right out and say it like that, my feelings are going to be hurt

i'm going to cry in a corner for a while

[zMuffinMan]

So, what we're discovering now about the weak modifier even moreso contradicts the assertions made by Kagami and Plum earlier. They lied and used to spin a bizarre gambit that only served to help scum. I know that arguing over flavor is annoying, and I agree with Tammy's frustration about it. But sometimes there's something sinister in it

i really wish you'd let up on this. i want to think you're town, but you're doing everything in your power to be like, "nah, fuck you muffin, i don't even wanna look town!"

Haven't had the chance. Haven't had extensive time to either check QTs or my messages. I'm going to do so tonight.

i have trouble believing f16 asked you to replace in to mentor him, and you came in ignoring all his reads, forming reads not even similar to his, controlling the vote, not consulting with him at all, etc etc as town

(this is aside from certain things that i'm not going to go into detail about atm that i think are more likely to come from you as scum than town so far - i kinda want a bigger sample size of your posts to judge, but i don't like what i see so far)

i dunno what you're hoping to achieve with the plum vote here. i don't think plum is town, but i don't really see plum getting lynched today

I'd like to explain why I believe the Mastin/F-16 hydra to be probscum

<snip>

That said, I still believe Pasch to be scum

mmhmm

given how weak your reasoning for pasch-scum is and how much more support there is for a mastin lynch, it's kinda odd you're still on pasch

[zMuffinMan]

tired and don't feel like reading stuff here

just going to assume nothing important has happened and i'm still awesome

there are too many smilies on this page

[zMuffinMan]

don't fucking yell at me, it makes me nervous

[zMuffinMan]

Never gonna give you up: Bert, Kagami, Myko, Paschendale

Don't really wanna let you down: pieguy, ActionDan, Brian?

Kinda wanna run around and desert you: 2 of {Plum, F16, BRO} (less sure about BRO - he actually might be town :/), 1 of {Tammy, Kaze} (prob Kaze, dunno, not something i wanna look into too deeply today)

AD up, pasch down a notch (still feels townish, just... meh), don't really wanna let BRO down, kinda wanna run around and desert brian

everything else still the same

i'm still indecisive

[zMuffinMan]

you're probs wrong on the one of kaze/tammy thing though, just saying

remind me who you think is scum again

[zMuffinMan]

well, I caught up...and I like where my vote is at plus deadline is close

please stop walling so much. omg.

and the deadline isn't really close

[zMuffinMan]

myko wasn't scum

and why were you voting bert if you don't think he's scum?

[zMuffinMan]

people are not slots

yes... they... are?

was this some deeply philosophical zen statement?

if a slot falls in a forest and nobody is around to vote it, was it really a person?

[zMuffinMan]

so you stop reading someone when a new person appears? i mean if one person is good at scum they get to be ignored forever?

basically, yeah.

it works for me, in all cases i've ignored a slot's replacement being "scummy" because their predecessor was town (i can name a few off the top of my head, if you really want - majiffy in N's game, whoever replaced DBK in varsoon's open, antihero in xenogears, i could probably name more if i really scoured through my past games, but cbf)

i'll stop doing it when it stops working, but it hasn't yet, and myko was town

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

00:34 for one that most people playing this should recognise

THEN WHO IS SCUM MUFFIN?

because pasch, mastin and kthnx is the best i've got

mastin probably is, kthx and pasch probably aren't. still think plum is likely scum, dunno about brian, kaze also likely scum

when I do that, people call me stupid and inflexible.

there's nothing wrong with being stupid and inflexible

[zMuffinMan]

well, what happens in mafia games is some people get town role PMs and some people get non-town role PMs. i think it's likely kaze is part of the latter group, so i said that

[zMuffinMan]

yeah i don't like him

i don't like scum

put two and two together

BAM

[zMuffinMan]

also nothing he's saying looks town, there's that too, i guess

but more important is the reasoning in 857

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: mastin

[zMuffinMan]

i'm town because i'm town

[zMuffinMan]

do you think i'm the kind of person who would lie about being town?

i wouldn't.

ask me if i'm town and i'll answer honestly

and i'm not

that

confident but i'm as confident as i usually am about things, which doesn't say much

[zMuffinMan]

i refuse to answer on the grounds that i may incriminate myself

[zMuffinMan]

it could be because you're scum, or it could be because it's just that type of game

can anybody ever be sure of anything? think about this. it's DEEEP

[zMuffinMan]

Mastin's 848 is pointless drivel

yep

Arguments for town-mastin:

1) Posts like this one read town to me.

nope

Muffin, I don't see Kaze-scum or Plum-scum over any of my scumreads, and you're not gonna convince anyone if that's how you explain shit.

okidoke

one lynch at a time

mastin first

I don't trust zMM too much.

neither do i but he's town as fuck, yo

[zMuffinMan]

yes, but i don't see what you're hoping to get from my answer here

form your own opinion?

[zMuffinMan]

if his posts are rock solid but feel forced he's scum

his posts are not rock solid, but they are forced

[zMuffinMan]

My eyes can't roll any harder. We needed more character claims.

[zMuffinMan]

Talk to me about ktnx--why not?

are you reading? i've made my thoughts on myko pretty clear a few times now. he was town, kthx is myko. i'm not particularly impressed by anything kthx has done so far but none of it is "scummy".

Talk more on kaze.

i'm probably not the best person to ask about kaze. i'm already partially biased against him for ~reasons~ but i don't like the way he's approached this game - the reads he's given are just... shithouse and it doesn't look like he's really interested in figuring out who's scum or town. like plum, i'm not sure why people are writing him off as town, but whatever. he's not someone i particularly want to lynch today. he's claimed Eren (and not "weak"); he's basically either a strong town PR or scum, so it can wait.

[zMuffinMan]

you're not vanilla and if you claim it you need to be autolynched

[zMuffinMan]

I know I'm not pure vanilla because of ~reasons~, I want to know why you assume Eren has to be a strong PR. Or are you just spouting noise?

why is this even a point of contention for you?

like what are you even expecting from my answer here?

you are the one

who is making noise about this. it was an off-hand comment in my read on you, and you're making a big deal of it

[zMuffinMan]

i hate everything about this lynch

i don't know why people started thinking mastin is town

i don't know why people think pasch is scum

if he is town like i think he is, the only plus side to a pasch lynch happening is it the fact that a town flip makes it insanely easy to spot who the scum on the wagon is here:

Paschendale (6): Plum, Kazekirimaru, Pieguyn, Tammy, Kagami, Bert

[zMuffinMan]

it seems people are just ignoring plum's posts at this point even though plum isn't even trying anymore

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

i think he knew a plum lynch wasn't happening today, yes. it's not that hard to see. i don't think i could SCREAM it through if i wanted to because too many people seem to have a town read on plum for ~reasons~ that no one has elaborated on.

[zMuffinMan]

that