NY 168: (GAME OVER) The Mod is Dead, Fire and Ice Edition

[PeregrineV]

Hey let's lynch this not voting fellow he is scummy.

7 days absent. Maybe a prod/replace.

[YuniChikako]

In response to Slandaar, Toomai didn't seem too bad at the beginning. Until #169,when he said TSO might be town, just because he didn't know this was a multi-faction game. That really isn't reason enough. Next, he joins the Dry wagon, of course, saying he agrees with what people have been saying, doesn't give his own reasons. #280 he continues to defend TSO, saying he's probably ignorant town. That's his only reason, the "slip". Then this:

Garmr and Slandaar combined have convinced me that JKLM is a better vote today than Dry-fit.

And TSO got confused by 403 supposedly, which mirrors the ignorance of things being multiball previously. I'm feeing both together makes him feel a bit scummier.

I saw this coming. Yep, siding with the town, just saying he agrees with what others have been saying, déjà vu, huh? Wasn't sure about Toomai And Dry being a team, but I can definitely see that now.
---

eh, fine

unvote, vote: JKLM

I under-estimated his scumplay.

Another scum jumps on the wagon, ladies and gentleman!
---

@YuniChikako:

Why are you not voting JKLM if he is such scummy-scum that two people are scummy

simply for defending him

?

One, because you're scummy, and I want to lynch you. Two, you can't lynch everybody you want to at the same time, unfortunately. Three, because that post hurt my eyes.
/I was kidding in reason number three for those who need clarification.
---

Also, I ran through my iso looking for coherent scumreads. This is what I came up with:

-Maxous scum. (Fire?)
-Bulbazak scum?
{Slandaar, Desperado, Bulbazak, Dry-Fit, Yiley, PeregrineV}
Figures of interest, Yunichika wagon.

-Aptil scum with Bulbazak, or town.
-Desp null-townish.
-Matias scum.
-Antihero scum.
-Slandaar scum?
-Dry-fit strongly scum.
-Yiley town?

I agree with most of this, but Matias scum? Please enlighten me on what you are thinking.
---

Town:
Garmr
Max
Bulba
Yiley
JKLM
Dry

Desp probably

Mastin meh
AA9 meh

Middler's
OGML
AH
Aptil
PV

Meh scum
Matias

Scum:
TSO
EPM
Yuni
Toomai

Part of this I agree with buuut Maxous town, Dry town, JKLM town, and again, Matias scum? And here my view of you was getting better. Seriosly, explain this to me. I'd also like to know why you think Bulba is town as well.

[ElectricSavages]

Hey let's lynch this not voting fellow he is scummy.

7 days absent. Maybe a prod/replace.

I was giving him time to get back from V/LA, prodding him now

[evilpacman18]

Yeah. Unfortunately it's not scumposting.

Why?

It just seems far too bold, you probably hate the "too scummy to be scum" argument but I believe in it quite a lot because most of the time I think the case is more "too decidedly ignorant and aggressively anti-town to be scum."

[mastin2]

Tell me how this guy is a town wagon again.

Because he is?

I might not be an expert at JKLM. But I'd like to think I'm not incompetent at reading him, and he looks like town.

Memories of Town!Mastin being more purposeful and direct with his posting.

This is the bit where, normally, I'd have some sort of witty response. But I thought it over a bit, and...well. I actually couldn't think of anything. Which means, the comment was seriously right. (That's right. You can tell a comment is an Armor-Piercing-Question when MASTIN is left unable to muster enough will to include a smiley in his response. )

While my posts have been full of purpose and directly attacking the matters, I realized that...well. They're too vague. I mean...to ME. My iso on my thoughts is crystal-clear. I've been quite explicit. To others, I'm wondering about that. I thought it was pretty clear, but now I'm not so sure they are. I'm not going to go in-depth about everything, but I

do

need to give more than I've given.

Not right now, though. My reads are too much in-flux. I need to stabilize them somewhat, get things nailed down, as it were. Give me a bit to work this out.

I agree with most of this, but Matias scum? Please enlighten me on what you are thinking.

Funnily enough, this is one of the only reads I actually HAVE elaborated on. But it literally is a "Matias scum?" right now, in that I'm not so sure of it anymore. Buuuuut, the reason I thought it is because of this--

Also, Garmr is town because Garmr is showing a town mindset, seems to be legitimately scumhunting, and not manipulating. He's not playing a survivalistic game at all, not being conservative, not anything I'd expect of scum-in-multiscum. He's being active, he's being aggressive, he's thinking for himself, taking initiative, being proactive, and giving some actually-valuable insights. True, not impossible to come from scum, but this seems to be his town self.

By the way? Matias is showing the opposite to me. Matias seems to be half-assing his scumhunting, playing a long-term survival game. He's posting, but his posting isn't having much of an impact at all, feeling shallow and hollow overall. His posting has very little aggression, and most of what he's doing is reactive rather than proactive. His insights are similarly "meh", and are not something I'd expect from him if he were town.

[ElectricSavages]

RachMarie is an amazing Person and replaces ArcAngel.

[RachMarie]

/confirm


Reading up

[Garmr]

Tell me how this guy is a town wagon again.

Because he is?

I might not be an expert at JKLM.

But I'd like to think I'm not incompetent at reading him, and he looks like town.

I've listed so many things why JKLM is scum. But this Bolded part shows me something important. You have confirmation bias because even when thrown heaps of information that JKLM you still believe him to be town. Lets put it this way JKLM>Dryfit chances to be scum.

[RachMarie]

This is going to take longer than I thought for only 18 pages ya all crammed a lot of stuffs in them...
I am actually going to have to do ISOs already.

Besides tonight as an early birthday present, NS, his son, and I are going to see the Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug.


A few quick thoughts:

I have played with many of you before so will start there to sort you all out.

Pere you are more active already than you were in Dr Who when I knew you were scum, also more feisty which is good to see. Will reread to be sure, but kinda leaning town here.

Will definitely have to ISO Mastin, I was really wrong about him before.

I can provide a link for scum JKLM a newbie game we both were in. Bonus you get to see me as town. (and IC)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31336


OGML you are better than just sheep I want to see more real thoughts from you. Though I do agree that its probably 3 man scum teams with 13 town. Based on my research, that is about right with 19 players

Yuni how much experience have you had with the game? Have you played anywhere besides here?

Slaan we meet again...


More probably tomorrow with the movie and all.

[Dry-fit]

1. Lack of response to interogative

I didn't consider the questions particularly worth answering. Yes I would consider your play in the beginning of this game coasting. I gave my thoughts on players on my wagon, particularly Desperado, Toomai, and mastin.

2. Appeal to Emotion, lack of addressing votes or voters on his wagon ----> (365

Again, the only person who's given any king of reason for voting me is Desperado. I've tried to address that with him several times. If you guys want hypocrisy to be some kind of ultimate tell of ultimate scumminess that makes someone confirmed scum, it's your funeral. And mine I suppose. No one else has given any real reasoning. Look at mastin ffs, he just keeps going on about how good the wagon looks.

3. Attack on OhGodMyLife who appears to be calling both Toomai and Dry-fit scummy & attampted redirection towards JKLM (391)

Uh, I said in my last post I think OGML is town. Did you think OGML's vote was good? And I'm not attempting to redirect to JKLM. I said I needed to look into him, because he's a player with an emerging wagon who's been under my radar. I want to see what hat wagon's about.

I looked at JKLM's iso, and I knew I didn't remember much of anything he's said this game, but I didn't realize just how little he's offered. That said he seems just null, I don't think the case against him is too strong. Garmr you may be right about his meta, but I haven't played with JKLM before and I don't trust meta reads from anyone but myself. Too many people just seem to do it wrong. Also Toomai is on that wagon, so there's that. Still think Toomai is significantly more likely to be scum.

[Bulbazak]

Also, where's my cookie?

The cookie is a lie :S

I don't accept non-cake desserts to be lies.

In other news, Mastin is continuing to speak in double talk..

Tell me how this guy is a town wagon again.

Because he is?

I might not be an expert at JKLM.

But I'd like to think I'm not incompetent at reading him, and he looks like town.

I've listed so many things why JKLM is scum. But this Bolded part shows me something important. You have confirmation bias because even when thrown heaps of information that JKLM you still believe him to be town. Lets put it this way JKLM>Dryfit chances to be scum.

So do you think Mastin is town?

Also Toomai is on that wagon, so there's that. Still think Toomai is significantly more likely to be scum.

So? That just means he's not scum with JKLM.

[Garmr]

Also Toomai is on that wagon, so there's that.

There's one hyphenated that nullifies that reasoning until at least after some flips.

Multi-Scum

[PeregrineV]

Again, the only person who's given any king of reason for voting me is Desperado. I've tried to address that with him several times. If you guys want hypocrisy to be some kind of ultimate tell of ultimate scumminess that makes someone confirmed scum, it's your funeral. And mine I suppose. No one else has given any real reasoning. Look at mastin ffs, he just keeps going on about how good the wagon looks.

And your play seems to be throwing your hands up in the air going "What can I do?" when you can question the people voting for you before they decide (like me) that your apathy is more scum-motivated and less town frustration at being misread day1.

Formal invite-

@Dry-fit-

Please give your opinion on each person who is voting you. How strong is there case or reason for voting you, both in presentation and strength of argument?

In addition, outside of those players voting you, who are you two strongest townreads and why, and who are your tow strongest scumreads and why?

[PeregrineV]

Uh, I said in my last post I think OGML is town. Did you think OGML's vote was good? And I'm not attempting to redirect to JKLM. I said I needed to look into him, because he's a player with an emerging wagon who's been under my radar. I want to see what hat wagon's about.

I looked at JKLM's iso, and I knew I didn't remember much of anything he's said this game, but I didn't realize just how little he's offered. That said he seems just null, I don't think the case against him is too strong. Garmr you may be right about his meta, but I haven't played with JKLM before and I don't trust meta reads from anyone but myself. Too many people just seem to do it wrong. Also Toomai is on that wagon, so there's that. Still think Toomai is significantly more likely to be scum.

So, you are claiming less interest in the Dry-fit wagon, and more interest in the JKLM wagon?
A wagon on town (you) and wagon on null (JKLM)?

Dry - Fit[8]

-Desperado, Matias, Yiley, mastin2, T S O, OhGodMyLife, PeregrineV, JKLM

JKLM [5]

- Bulbazak, Garmr, Toomai, evilpacman18, Maxous

It's a crazy world, so how many scum are on your null-read counterwagon? How many town?

[PeregrineV]

RachMarie is an amazing Person and replaces ArcAngel.

Ok, yeah, she is.

Welcome RachMarie!!

You scum this game?

[Maxous]

I'm tempted to lynch all liars buts df is much scummier :/

if you want a snack, get it yourself.

@YuniChikako:

Why are you not voting JKLM if he is such scummy-scum that two people are scummy

simply for defending him

?

One, because you're scummy, and I want to lynch you. Two, you can't lynch everybody you want to at the same time, unfortunately. Three, because that post hurt my eyes.

That does'nt really clarify it.

[Toomai]

In response to Slandaar, Toomai didn't seem too bad at the beginning. Until #169,when he said TSO might be town, just because he didn't know this was a multi-faction game. That really isn't reason enough. Next, he joins the Dry wagon, of course, saying he agrees with what people have been saying, doesn't give his own reasons. #280 he continues to defend TSO, saying he's probably ignorant town. That's his only reason, the "slip". Then this:

Garmr and Slandaar combined have convinced me that JKLM is a better vote today than Dry-fit.

And TSO got confused by 403 supposedly, which mirrors the ignorance of things being multiball previously. I'm feeing both together makes him feel a bit scummier.

I saw this coming. Yep, siding with the town, just saying he agrees with what others have been saying, déjà vu, huh? Wasn't sure about Toomai And Dry being a team, but I can definitely see that now.

280 isn't a defense, it's a statement of opinion in direct response to an open question. Also 207 explains that while I thought the ignorance was town at the time, should TSO look scummy later, it'll come back to bite him hard. It's already started to happen somewhat given the post of mine you quoted.

[YuniChikako]

I agree with most of this, but Matias scum? Please enlighten me on what you are thinking.

Funnily enough, this is one of the only reads I actually HAVE elaborated on. But it literally is a "Matias scum?" right now, in that I'm not so sure of it anymore. Buuuuut, the reason I thought it is because of this--

Also, Garmr is town because Garmr is showing a town mindset, seems to be legitimately scumhunting, and not manipulating. He's not playing a survivalistic game at all, not being conservative, not anything I'd expect of scum-in-multiscum. He's being active, he's being aggressive, he's thinking for himself, taking initiative, being proactive, and giving some actually-valuable insights. True, not impossible to come from scum, but this seems to be his town self.

By the way? Matias is showing the opposite to me. Matias seems to be half-assing his scumhunting, playing a long-term survival game. He's posting, but his posting isn't having much of an impact at all, feeling shallow and hollow overall. His posting has very little aggression, and most of what he's doing is reactive rather than proactive. His insights are similarly "meh", and are not something I'd expect from him if he were town.

Oh, I think I missed that post. I don't know, I like how Matias has been talking, but that's just me.
---

Yuni how much experience have you had with the game? Have you played anywhere besides here?

I've answered this already, but yes, I have played mafia other than here. Mostly over stuff like AIM, IRC, and Skype (using the chat, not a low quality camera or something).
---

@YuniChikako:

Why are you not voting JKLM if he is such scummy-scum that two people are scummy

simply for defending him

?

One, because you're scummy, and I want to lynch you. Two, you can't lynch everybody you want to at the same time, unfortunately. Three, because that post hurt my eyes.

That does'nt really clarify it.

Ey, if I wanna get rid of you before JKLM, then I wanna get rid of you before JKLM.
---

280 isn't a defense, it's a statement of opinion in direct response to an open question. Also 207 explains that while I thought the ignorance was town at the time, should TSO look scummy later, it'll come back to bite him hard. It's already started to happen somewhat given the post of mine you quoted.

Another post I missed, 207. I was off these past couple days. Thank you for pointing it out. Well, what's your opinion of TSO now?

[YuniChikako]

You know what? Nevermind. As much as I'd like to lynch Maxous right now, Dry-fit's almost gone, and since I also see him as scum, I might as well.
I really want to get Maxous next though.

Vote: Dry-fit

[OhGodMyLife]

Antiprod til tomorrow hi guys

[Garmr]

So anyone notice that we have 5 days left. Yuni thinks Jklm is scummy but won't get on the wagon because two people look like to her. People tell her that it is multi scum and she ignores it. Then she says she wants to vote Maxous before Jklm because she doesn't want to compromise then she Votes dry fit.


Does this sit right with any of you.

[Slandaar]

Slaan we meet again...

@Pacman: I think you forgot to answer your superduper scumreads question.

And... TSO has vanished.

[Dry-fit]

There's one hyphenated that nullifies that reasoning until at least after some flips.

Multi-Scum

In a multi-scum game, if you clear a player of being on one scumteam that makes them more likely to be town because it eliminates half the possible scum slots that player could hold. So for example if there are 6 scum in this game and we clear JKLM of being on Toomai's scumteam that gives him a 3/19 chance of being scum rather than 5/19(with Toomai taking up one the sixth scumslot). So all else being equal it makes him look more town.

So, you are claiming less interest in the Dry-fit wagon, and more interest in the JKLM wagon?
A wagon on town (you) and wagon on null (JKLM)?

I'm claiming more interest in a Toomai wagon than a JKLM wagon. Lynching JKLM would be better than lynching me, but he's just null.

@Dry-fit- Please give your opinion on each person who is voting you. How strong is there case or reason for voting you, both in presentation and strength of argument?

In addition, outside of those players voting you, who are you two strongest townreads and why, and who are your tow strongest scumreads and why?

Is this really the way people play? They analyze every person on their wagon unless they're scum? I'm not a player who values wagon analysis as a scumhunting method. I don't look at the game by dissecting each member of a particular wagon. I'll give you my thoughts nonetheless.

Desperado: Has given an actual reason, hypocrisy. As I said I think hypocrisy is a legitimate tactic in some cases. I've done it knowingly as town in other games and have advocated for it as town in other games. I think I need my custom title to be "Hypocrite" so this issue doesn't keep coming up in games. Desperado has refused to look at my explanation for my views on hypocrisy and hasn't responded to any other aspects of my play and hasn't said anything about any other players. Go ahead and look at his iso and try to find something about a player other than me. Good luck. He's my second scumread.

Matias: Says Desperado's reason is good and offers nothing else. Overall he leans on the scummish side of null.

Yiley: I kind find a reason from him for his vote on me. I'm leaning town on him because of a couple of offhand comments he's made, one of them being 45.

mastin2: No reason given for his vote on me. Since his vote he just repeatedly says the wagon on me looks good. Hasn't responded to any of the questions I've asked him. He's my third scumread, possibly on his way to 2nd.

T S O: No reason given. Just repeatedly says the wagon is good. I don't have much of a read on him, though this isn't how he's been when I played with him before. Not sure it's scummy though.

OhGodMyLife: Votes me initially for sheeping. Later seems to really have a scumread on me, but won't give his reasons. Leaning town on him because I don't think scum would start saying they actually think I'm scummy without giving reasons.

PeregrineV: No reason given initially, then later offers three reasons. The first is that I haven't addressed his questions, one of which looked rhetorical and the other of which I answered indirectly by giving reads on several players based on their actions on my wagon. Namely Desperado, Toomai, mastin, and OGML. Second reason has two parts: First appeal to emotion: not much I can respond to with that. It's up to you to make the read on that and determine whether you think it's scummy or townie. Second part is not addressing voters on my wagon. Fair enough if you're talking about Desperado, though I don't really know what I can can say about that. If you don't find my explanations satisfactory that's how it is. But as you've seen no one else on my wagon has actually addressed anything to me. In fact some like mastin seem to be doing anything they can to avoid doing so. Third reason is that I called OGML scummy and was redirecting onto JKLM. I already addressed that in my last post so no need to do so again. PV overall seems null to me but I don't trust my ability to read you at all so that's no surprise.

JKLM: Ate. That's it. I've already given my view of JKLM overall and he's just null.

So I hope you can see the frustration I'm having here with 4 of eight players on my wagon(now 5 of 9 with Yuni) giving no reason for being on my wagon. And a fifth in Yiley just sheeping another person adding nothing new. I don't feel like people are giving me a fair shake this game.

It's a crazy world, so how many scum are on your null-read counterwagon? How many town?

One scum in Toomai for sure. Garmr is a pretty strong townread, Maxous a medium one. Bulba and Pacman I'm null on. Once again I don't play by looking at a wagon and saying "there are x scum on this wagon."

This is one of the reasons I don't like wagon analysis by the way. I just posted a ton of information a lot of people won't read, a lot of which isn't important, and repeating things I've said in other posts and in this post itself.

[Yiley]

Martin made post 45 not me.

[Yiley]

*mastin