[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[pieceofpecanpie]

Howdy there, I have a new open set up I'd like to give a crack.

I created a wiki page to make it easier to review, http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ttle_Mafia.

[pieceofpecanpie]

But it's nightstart, so why would NL Day 1 be the best town strat? Unless you want to give scum two bites of the rolecop apple.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Look I appreciate your feedback, but please at least think more deeply about the tactics and set up before making comments based on assertions that are contrary to the intended style of the gameplay.

Firstly, it wouldn't be in scums interests to NK Night 0 at all, unless they really do want to go full luck-based (btw, mafia has luck in every game, so if you're going to apply a shooting in the dark strat to this game I hope you also recommend such a strat for each and every game out there...). Night 0 is to utilise the rolecop. Scums tactic is to clear a minefield, so to speak, as they are forced to make careful decisions about who they kill, based not only on a players strength, but also a players role.

Secondly, I have tried hard to think of an interesting way to create a simple tweak that changes some elements of gameplay. Namely in this game each and every townie is equal until proven otherwise. That's not supposed to be a hindrance, that puts the power in the hands of the player rather than their role (or the loss of a role). Also, in every other game out there you can more or less be instantly relegated to the sidelines after a Night. Here there is the potential to be able to strike back at your killers, or give town a crucial piece of information.

There is swing here, there are worst-case scenarios for sure, but with daychat for scum and a level playing field for town role-wise (since they don't know their roles they can't hide behind them) I'm hoping this game is a lot more about the strengths of the players and the way they manipulate or interpret events rather than an event number generator.

I'm happy to share the QT between AV and myself if it would help on the background of the setup or alleviate concerns you have.

[pieceofpecanpie]

There's luck in every single game of mafia. Are you telling me you can't think up tactics or strategy that town can employ in this set up? In a normal game a cop can die without even being able to claim, just like a cop can get lynched. Towns main source of power in all games relies on a degree of cooperation and luck. Here they could employ promises to lynch someone if another person flips town/gets NK'd and see what results they get. Scum are going to get caught in a lie or having to bus each other at some point. If a townie's mentality is "Oh I'll just wait till I get NK'd before I start playing this game", then I wouldn't recommend they join. There's nothing to stop them from analysing wagons, votes etc. etc. In fact, just good deductive skills and a keen eye for inconsistencies are more key here than ever. It's not just dumb luck. It's about "Why did those two players push for that mislynch? Me thinks a rolecop was at work, let's push for their lynch tomorrow...".

It's not so much that you haven't raised some valid concerns about town gameplay. I'm curious to see if it'll work or not, the mechanic is new so I couldn't tell you. My two key aims are simply to provide a game that's balanced and fun, and I've spent a lot of time trying to come up with something that fulfills those aims. I'm also a bit ticked off that you adopt a rather dismissive and disparaging tone even though you didn't even read the basic mechanics. First off the bat, right there, "night start". How am I to reason that you're actually giving something like this a chance when you can decide it's questionable without even having questioned it properly?

I mean I'm here to answer your questions and see what thoughts come out. Couldn't you perhaps voice concerns better by starting off saying things like "So how do you think town gameplay will work out with this set up, because I..."? Rather than just a "looks like dumb luck, looks boring, would not join".

[pieceofpecanpie]

The one thing I do like Pecan, is that 'every single townie is equal'. I don't like that once a townie is killed they get to use their role and the results are publicly revealed. Now you're punishing the mafia for using their night kill, which I don't think you should do in any set-up. Also, you have a Mafia Roleblocker....who seems to be useless as townies can only use their role upon death.

The roleblocker plays a key role, it allows mafia to rolecop a PR and negate their effects with a sneaky NK. Especially if they are unable to force a mislynch on the player.

eg. Night 3 - rolecop finds cop
Night 4 - roleblocker blocks cop, goon kills cop, once kill resolves the cops investigation will fail

It's an unusual scenario as it requires mafia to be aware of the role they are killing, but that's the point in this game. Their NK's aren't solely about getting rid of the strongest townie.

I don't think I'm being dismissive -- your game looks relatively balanced. I'm merely sharing with you that the thing that holds me back is that the setup is essentially strategically akin (for town anyway) to a mountainous game with an occasional innocent or guilty upon the dawn of a new day. I'm not saying there isn't luck in mafia. Every mafia game has luck. This has a little bit more.

Why are you upset at my tone? I'm not upset at you.

I've put a lot of thought into this game, so I suppose I was a bit taken back by the response. I'm wondering, given what you've said, if you can think of any changes or improvements that could be made to give town a more positive experience? Unfortunately even if I included something like a town rolecop - which was considered at one stage - they'd still be just as limited by functionality as the other town roles. I think seeing roles like cop, tracker, gunsmith with this mechanic are actually false positives. It's more like there's 11 VT's.

However, having said that, when I've run events at random this game is notoriously difficult for scum. It's been hard to consider balance when the games outcome actually relies heavily on who scum chooses to kill and when. For the most part they'd want to NK Fruit Vendors and have the PRs get mislynched, but that stops working eventually.

I especially like the combination of scum power roles. It forces scum to really think about who should do the kill (that is, given that PRs can't do the kill AND their PR at the same time; is this correct, pecanpie?)

Yes, only the rolecop can investigate and kill if they're the last scum left alive. At some stage scum will be forced to lose the immunity on the goon if they want to get rid of a PR and rolecop someone. ie. rolecop investigates a player, roleblocker blocks PR, goon NK's same PR

Is there a reason the game starts with an even number with a night start? Would it not work as a 13 or 15p game with a daystart? I really dislike night starts, you're basically asking someone to sign up who is going to end up not playing.

Also in regards to the bloodlust mechanic, it seems a lot simpler to me to just force the town to lynch and the scum to kill. As it stands the game can sit completely inert for 2 days and night phases. I don't see that being fun for anyone. At the very least the punishment factor should come into play immediately after no lynching or killing.

The reason for the nightstart is so scum can use the rolecop on someone. I wouldn't consider them killing someone a solid tactic, as they'd be shooting in the dark and potentially give town a huge advantage.

I like what you said about the bloodlust mechanic a lot. Making lynches and NK's mandatory does sound like a good idea.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, well that seems like a bit of a bugger.

I don't want people playing a game where there's a contention that winning or losing is based heavily on luck.

I think the mechanic is a refreshing way to change up how scum are expected to perform NK's and also changes the way town approach the game. I like the inherent risk with NK's, it means scum need to work more for them, I also like town having to rely on their strengths as players, rather than any expectation of abilities that they may or may not have.

However, with this concern over it's current form I'm losing confidence at running it. If it's not fun then it's not worth it.

(@T-Bone Yeah, it is weird, but the idea is that a tracker can retroactively track their killer, or the rolecop.)

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Cogito

Fair points, so what you're suggesting is a day rolecop and 2 goons?

Scum weren't entirely in the clear with the current set-up, the rolecop was there so they could identify a PR and choose to "defuse" them in a NK (almost minesweeper style), but to do that with the roleblocker and use the rolecop in the same night they'd have to use the inv-imm goon for the kill and thus sacrifice his immunity. So I don't feel like I gave scum counters to everything, just some outs. I feel like they needed at least one out if the rolecopping was hitting only PRs and those PRs weren't getting mislynched.

However, if I were to scrap all that would it be fair to force scum to NK every night?

@Zachrulez

Very true, but I do want everyone to get into an enjoyable game. From some of the concerns raised I'm uncertain about that prospect from the town side.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Hoopla

I appear to be hanging around in this thread more than I anticipated. Do you want me to take this to the ideas and discussion thread, or elsewhere? I've been sick for a week, so I got pretty disheartened when this baby stalled a bit here and I considered scrapping it altogether, but now I'm feeling a bit better and resolved to patch this up and run it as a game eventually. I'm determined to make this mechanic work. Scum must feel the burden of responsibility for their choice in victims!

[pieceofpecanpie]

@kuribo

The swing and balance is completely based on what those actual abilities are, so have you got some in mind?

@everyone

I'm back with a heavily revised version of my set-up idea that I had going last page, updated the wiki (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... ttle_Mafia) so feel free to check it out and comment.

Quick summary:
- Basic concept is the same eg. town are not aware of their roles at gamestart but get to use them if they're NK'd
- Introduced a mechanic where town players can learn their ability throughout the game (see "Living Rattle")
- Tweaked a bunch of roles/mechanics (including the whole scum team)
- Changed it to a 13-player day start (instead of 14 player night start)

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I'd like to thank AV who once again patiently went through ideas and gave feedback so we could come up with a workable game without losing the basic concept. Unfortunately it appears he's taking a break from mafia for the time being, but we essentially got to the point where this game is looking very playable. A huge thank you to everyone who provided feedback here - especially Hoopla - who took the time to read, mull it over and deliver feedback on the concept. Every comment helped spawn these changes. Most importantly I think this is now a fun game for both town and scum (which seemed a major flaw previously) - mostly due to the "Living Rattle" mechanic - so I'm still keen to try running this some time. I'd really appreciate your thoughts.