Mafia 63: Wolves - Game over!

[Jingolaw]

We will avenge you, Blackberry! We hardly knew thee! Er, actually, we didn't know thee at all.

Vengence takes the form, in this case, of a random vote. Vote: Coron

[Jingolaw]

Bah. EBWOP

Vote: Coron

[Jingolaw]

I agree with Ancalagon. please 'splain, BM. Random votes in Rnd.1 are one thing...random switches are another.

FoS: ThAdmiral.

but I'll leave my vote where it is for now, as Coron is obviously scum. Obviously.

[Jingolaw]

EBWOP: sorry about that Finger, there, ThAdmiral...

I meant to point it at Battle Mage.

FoS:

Battle Mage

.

[Jingolaw]

Fircoal: wow...the needle came right off the scum-o-meter. But it may have been indicating Scarecrow, who is using the obvious scum-tell of joking about codes.

I'll wait until the new scum-o-meter arrives before changing my vote, though.

[Jingolaw]

Pooky

:

vote ThAdmiral

mainly because of his early comments

partly because I <3 Tali

Which comments, exactly? You seem awfully short on reasons to roll an unprincipled bandwagon along. I know it's early, I know we're looking for subtleties behind jokes...but your vote seems curiously quick.

Just sayin'.

[Jingolaw]

IGMEOY: Jingo on the questioning of me, honestly dude, he's only made 5 posts... it's not like you have to do some kind of long boring reread of 200 comments made by him to figure out which ones I found scummy....

Exactly. 5 posts. Nothing scummy about any of them, which is why I wanted you to point out exactly what YOU thought was scummy, which you did. That's how it works.

Random votes are random, but with a reasoned vote it only helps scum if you keep your reasoning to yourself. If you lay out your logic, you help us follow it and we can decide if you're trying to help or hinder.

So now you have your eye on me for wanting you to let us know what reasoning went with a vote, and additionally have a lynch-list for us? Interesting.

[Jingolaw]

oh, and I'll

unvote: Coron

, because my vote was a joke, and

FoS: Pooky

for failing to understand a joke (a joke that Pooky must have seen dozens and dozens of times), and devoting considerable effort toward attacking ThAdmiral because of it.

[Jingolaw]

Absolute nonsense.

The way I see it: ThAdmiral makes a standard random vote with a joke reason...then Pooky spends 3 pages interrogating ThAdmiral for it, and when Pook's reasoning is questioned he

doesn’t

say “well, I was just fishing...” No, he sticks to his guns on the line of argument that joking about a random vote on day 1 is a scum tell, and that

explaining that it was a joke is a scum tell

!

From a noob?

Maybe

. From Pooky?

Nope

.

I would say that I don’t trust ThAdmiral either, (and I still don’t) but I fail to see how anyone could sensibly defend against such random unsubstantiated nonsense without resorting to just repeating again and again “dude...it was a JOKE.”

We still have lurkers, and we still have some questionable votes here and there, but Pooky put on his own flea-collar.

Vote: PookyTheMagicalBear

[Jingolaw]

Oh and using a "joke reason" is different from using a trivial reason.

You’ll have to explain this further if you really want to stand by it. I see the reasons as synonymous, for all practical purposes.

And even IF you decide to disagree with me on whether his "reason" was a joke or trivial, how do you refute my argument on reasons 2 3 or 4?

I'm not refuting those arguments; I'm considering them, and ThAdmiral looks suspicious to be sure. It's just that you look worse to me, Pooky. Agression is useful, certainly; blind hyper-aggression is scummy.

[Jingolaw]

Unvote: Scarecrow, Vote: Pooky

Why is he being so damn aggressive?

QFT

Oh and lastly, What does this mean?

How DO YOU QUOTE A QUESTION FOR TRUTHERY!?!?

IT ISNT A STATEMENT! A QUESTION CANT BE TRUE OR FALSE.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS THAT ARE COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH?

FOS Anca

Ancalagon was obviously agreeing with Scarecrow's sentiment. Obviously. Yet, you pedantically go after him (FoS, even) with the caps lock button. You also insist on maintaining this silly line of reasoning distinguishing subtle gradations of “jokiness,” AND basing a vote on it. That's blind aggression in my book.

Oh, and there's this:

BLIND HYPERAGGRESSION?

WHAT PART OF MY AGGRESSION DO YOU BELIEVE IS BLIND!?

NOTHING AT ALL!! YOU APPEAR COMPLETELY RATIONAL AND CALM!! HAHAHA!!

My vote stays.

[Jingolaw]

Oh, great reason there, Scarecrow. BM posts a mere observation, not even worthy of a finger, much less a vote, and you're ready to vote for Twito? Not that I don't think Twito might be scum, but that was an awfully quick vote justified by a thin meta-game assertion.

FoS: Scarecrow

.

oh, and can we get a confirmation that Twito is even going to be around for the next week?...Isn't he on Easter holiday?

[quote=”Pooky”]
1) What is scarecrow trying to assert then if it is so obvious?

2) I think I've made it quite clear that my vote is based on four reasons, I don't see how you can ignore three of them and say it is based only on the first reason. I'd say attacking me and saying that I'm basing my vote on ThAd on ONE reason when I've supplied FOUR is "blind".

If anyone is blind here, it is you.
[/quote]

1) What Scarecrow is, or was, trying to assert is no mystery. He was asserting that you were being aggressive to the point of being suspiciously so. This was recognized by several people, including me and Ancalagon. Ultimately, however, Scarecrow’s assertions are immaterial, since it wasn’t the content that you questioned, but rather the format.

When Ancalagon seconded Scarecrow’s posted suspicions, you attacked not his reasoning, but his terminology. Granted, you were already defending your aggression elsewhere, but it seemed to undermine your efforts to not simply refute the substance of the Scarecrow/Jingolaw/Ancalagon accusation, but rather go after Ancalagon purely on a procedural formality. That’s what looked bad, and still does: your all caps FoS attack on Ancalagon based on nothing more than your perception that an interrogatory should not be quoted for truthiness.

2) I’ll remind you that I’m not questioning your vote for ThAdmiral; it may be well-placed. I’m questioning your odd adherence to a nonsensical rationale, namely this whole random vs. joke / funny vs. not-funny meme. It’s silly, and you know it’s silly, which is why your continued defense of it makes me very suspicious. Your other reasons seem OK to me, but if number 4 in the list of reasons is completely baseless, that calls in to question reasons 1 through 3. You then trumpet that we’re not listening to reasons 1 through 3, and my answer is yes, that’s correct, we’re not listening to reasons 1 through 3, because reason 4 is the one we’re talking about.

In any case, my suspicion is that this is a case of throwing good logic after bad, and that the scum are just lurking and waiting...probably.

For now, I’ll

unvote: Pooky

.

[Jingolaw]

huh. not sure what's wrong with that coding. Oh well, it's readable.

[Jingolaw]

@ scarecrow and battle mage: I think metagaming is a bad practice in general, as I have already said.

In general, I agree. Of course, just as I was starting to think that I would Twito for lurkiness as an exception, he shows up with a plausible excuse.

[Jingolaw]

EBWOP:

"...that I would vote for Twito for lurkiness as an exception..."

[Jingolaw]

very well.

FoS: TheJiveMachine

for extreme lurkiness.

[Jingolaw]

Whoa.

I'm back.

Phoebus

, can we wait until everyone has checked in before resetting the deadline?

[Jingolaw]

I did, in fact, unvote Pooky earlier, but things have gone all higgledy-piggledy; so, just to be clear:

unvote

[Jingolaw]

Well, the crash seems to have eaten posts, and discouraged future posts as well.

I know it's tough to just jump back in when we've lost some (possibly) relevant material, but players should at least confirm that they’re still playing.

Phoebus

, maybe you should universally prod and set another

/confirm

deadline. We’ve been back for, what, six days?

I’d like to start playing again, but I honestly don’t know who’s still in the game.

[Jingolaw]

Normally I'd say no to a deadline, but with this many players and this few posts...and with the crash and all...

perhaps a deadline will be beneficial, if for no other reason than to generate activity (one would hope).

[Jingolaw]

I've changed my mind slightly - if we can't get replacements I'm all for lynching some dead weight for the sake of the fun of the game.

Well, I’m all for fun...but not like that. Random lynches are bad for town. I realize that you’re suggesting lynching deadweight IF we can’t get replacements, just to move things along, and I understand the sentiment. I’d just rather have a game lag and join another active one than lose the present one.

I’ll wait to hear Tony’s read on the game before doing too much more analysis. Also, it would be nice if SV posted, as promised...otherwise Talitha’s suggestion starts looking better.

[Jingolaw]

ah, in that case, i think Twito could be scum, and as such, a Vig-Kill.
Thadmiral was probably a power role. fletcher doesnt sound vanilla.

A milliner sounds scummy to you? Milliner sounds about as vanilla townie as it gets to me. Frankly, so does fletcher, particularly when Phoebus took time to add the flavor text that he didn’t put up much of a fight and/or wasn’t proficient, himself, with his own crafts. It’s possible that Admiral was a cop of some sort, though...which is bad news for us. It’s also possible that the flavor text doesn’t mean as much as I’m reading into it.

I'm pretty sure that Twito's death was a Vig kill, he was my Number 1 suspect, from games I've read, Vig's usually kill by guns (In this case, bow and arrow), while SK's use something like knives, so, I don't think we have an SK at all, I doubt they'd miss their kill 2 nights in a row.

Regarding the Vig’s and SK’s flavor text, I agree with this assessment, and second the notion that there is not likely to be both a Vig and a SK. It’s still possible, though.

What worries me the most is that I now realize that I had been assuming we’ll know a werewolf when we get one...but could “Sorcerer” have been a scum role? I assumed Sorcerer was a town power role, and hoped that it wasn’t our equivalent of a “seer” or “detective”...because, if so...more bad news.

I’ll do another reread, though.

[Jingolaw]

Blessed relief of Day 2? We were on Page 10, hardly a long and arduous day. And what do you mean if we can't get replacements? A bit hasty aren't we?

FOS: Tally

I raised that suspicion in post 235, but I’m not sure how much it means on its own. I’m interested to hear theopor’s rationale, though. (Because otherwise that’s a frightfully quick vote, theopor).

BM thing is I expect the scum to be Wolves and be revealed as such not Sorcerers or Milliners and the like. Fircoal may have been an independent but I don't think he'd be part of that breed of baying animals and being as I think we're just up against Wolves I think it's possible we're four down already with Blackberry biting the dust aswell.

This is what I was thinking as well. When I expressed my doubts as to possible roles and BM pointed out that Phoebus said “That was the good kill,” I was still a bit put off: I think the role of “Milliner” was likely vanilla town (or close to it), so having a townie go down to the Vig isn’t exactly “good.”

Still waiting for at least a cursory analysis from: Niempie, Skruffs, Miztef, and Fielding, all of whom get some extra time as replacements. Everyone else?...Starting to look lurky.

[Jingolaw]

Despite having pointed out the original behavior as questionable, I think the wagon now rushing Talitha is a bit premature at best, scummy at worst. Probative? Fine, but I’m going to want some pretty good rationale for any more votes. I think Tali’s frustration was justified, and I pointed it out mostly to head off the “hey, we’re all bored and frustrated so let’s lynch someone…anyone!” sentiment, which I thought was a real possibility.

I’d say my fears were realized, because I think Fircoal’s last few votes were a bit scummy, but this sense is mitigated by the fact that I’m not even certain that Fircoal was scum! I mean, really, “Sorcerer”? I completely understand that word’s association with dark arts, thus scummy, but I also see it associated with magic, hence “seer.” I would also be disappointed to think that the wolves are not the only anti-town alignment and/or that we won’t know a wolf when we get one.

Oh, and funniest post of the game so far:

vote battlemage

glory to the wife

[Jingolaw]

I don't understand the issue with hidden roles.
.... Does someone have a reason to think that there is more than meets the eyes regarding the dead players?

In one werewolf game, the sorceror is a form of doctor. In another, though, he's like a werewolf godfather.

I think you’ve just answered your own question. Yes, there is some concern that we’re not sure who’s who. And yes, it’s because the role “Sorcerer” is somewhat ambiguous.

As Miztef has pointed out, it’s possible that we’re in bigger trouble than we suspect, with not one of the dead as yet turning up “werewolf” as we would have expected. And as I have pointed out, and you seemed to echo, there’s the possibility that “Sorcerer” = doctor/seer/detective, leading to even worse odds.

I’m eager to hear from Fielding Melish...or his replacement (hint, hint).

[Jingolaw]

Finished a reread; frankly, nothing changes. I still think Talitha deserves minor suspicion, but nothing more. BM still seems a little scummy, but not enough for a vote from me. Jordan is looking increasingly scummy as well, but again, not enough for a vote.

NV9, why did you omgus talitha for voting jordon?

I agree that ~N9V~’s vote seemed like an OMGUS-y defense of Jordan. The quick retraction was just as bad. IGMEOY, ~N9V~

[Jingolaw]

Give me something to post about, and I’ll post. There’s really very little going on here.

Jordan and theo both seem a little scummy, only in that both are posting a lot without much content...appearing to be helpful without being such. Please note that this isn’t just

ad hominem

; I think there’s little to go on, and both may simply be eager to discuss things and not have much to discuss. In the abstract it seems a little scummy, though.

I don’t get the Skruffs=scum argument. Skruffs hasn’t done much other than point out standard flawed scum-hunting techniques (correctly), and questioned the motives of some votes (usefully). Jordan’s vote on Skruffs is thus suspect to me.

BM’s comments on theo’s meta-gaming are interesting, but not enough for me to cast a vote.

Talitha is looking more and more town to me, and I’m suspicious of her detractors.

But, again, there’s lots of posting going on here...but very little game playing. If I seem lurky, so be it. I don’t feel the need to keep a running commentary in the game regardless of whether or not I have anything interesting to say.

[Jingolaw]

I'm interested to see how the DoS situation turns out. It seems that he could be lurking, or possibly have some sort of post restriction.

I don’t buy “post restriction.” It’s been too long since the prod, I think; this looks like scum-induced lurking.

FOS: Dragons of Summer

.

I agree with skruffs that Jordan seems to be in a bit of a panic mode, but I could easily see that as a pro-town panic, not nessisarily scum.

Maybe. But panic is generally scummy, as townies will normally defend themselves within reason, and then either claim or resign themselves. Here, I think Skruffs got Jordan flustered..not necessarily panicked.

@ BM: I agree that Skruffs seems a bit random, but I don’t see that as scummy at this point; I mean fishing at this point doesn’t seem unwarranted, does it? In any case, it seems a bit hasty to cast (get it?) a vote for Scruffs just for fishing. Just saying.

[Jingolaw]

Still here, just frightfully busy of late.

And my earlier assertion still stands: I’ll post if necessary. It seems unnecessary to comment on some petty back-and-forth argument over nothing of substance. It seems unnecessary to comment on the inevitable and trite theme of whether the person who suggests lynching lurkers is scummy, or whether the person who calls such a person scummy is, himself, scummier still. I simply haven’t had the time to do a proper inquiry into any particular player’s posting history, and thus find it unnecessary to post an improper one.

I will say that, having briefly reread all Niempie’s posts, I’ll agree with theopor in that there’s not much substance there. Of course, the same can be said about my posts as well, so I’m hesitant to point and call “scum!” too loudly. I’ll also agree that ~NV8~ and Niempie are equally likely to be either scum or useless, and as such I’m willing to get rid of one or the other.

Things should get interesting as the deadline approaches.

[Jingolaw]

Well...seeing as ~N9V~ has rather annoyingly dropped out while simultaneously severely handicapping any potential replacement, that leaves Niempie on my short list. I’ve never seen what was so scummy about Skruffs despite all the fuss and bother, though I do see a potential Skruffs - Dragons connection.

And, frankly, I have no reason not to believe ~N9V~ at this point, so pooks goes off the ‘naughty’ list and onto the ‘nice’ list.

There’s little else to go on since the last 4 pages have just been fluff...I think the deadline will help...I hope. Theo and Jordan both look town to me, as both seem to be alert and vigilant. I don’t have a read on Miztef at all, nor Shanba...though I’m leaning town on Shanba just on gut feeling. I have one or two other leads to watch...but we’ll see what happens as the deadline gets closer.

[Jingolaw]

Jordan’s continued accusation of Skruffs makes him look steadfast, but I don’t like how you brushed aside Skruffs’ valid points about you rushing Niempie’s wagon, Jordan, even if Skruffs is scum. I also don’t see Talitha as scummy anymore and I’m not sure why you do. And, of course, I'm not sure why I'm on your scumteam roster.

I’m just watching ~N9V~ closely at this point, but it’s tough to make a call with this game moving so slowly. I have no reason to doubt ~N9V~’s claim, particularly since nobody has counterclaimed, though I do have some suspicions: he only claimed one investigation the first time; he claimed an investigation after the identity of a party was known; the investigation of BM was odd, and; he’s advocating a no-lynch, even though if he’s a cop he can substantially raise the odds in our favor. Suspicious...or perhaps just careless.

Pooks is looking a bit scummy with the most recent posts, not that I wholly disagree with a DOS lynch, but I haven’t heard Pook’s reasons, so it looks bad...either that or Pooky’s just playing around to keep the game from stalling. Nah, couldn’t be.

The mass-claim idea isn’t horrible, Talitha, but think about it: at this point I’m not going to believe anyone anyway, save one person...the person who claims sibling and then confirms it by dying tonight. Perhaps a mass-claim makes more sense after the sibling dies and ~N8V~ investigates as directed.

[Jingolaw]

I find Jordan’s question about revealing the “werewolf” role after death to be a bit odd, since I think we covered this topic quite thoroughly after night 2. Granted, Jordan wasn’t here yet, but surely he has read, no? And Talitha

was

here, weren’t you, Tali? So, odd, again, that you’re giving Jordan innocence points for asking a question that’s been asked before (albiet not to the mod).

That said, I’m not sure about Jordan being scum, and more suspicious of Skruffs. Skruffs, what makes you see a Pooky-Jordan link (other than your apparent crusade to lynch Jordan, regardless)? Jordan looks neutral to me at this point, and Pooky gets a presumptive pass based on ~N9V~’s purported investigation. Obviously, if things develop further with the cop-claim we’ll have to reexamine, but at this point I have ~N9V~ and Pooky in the town column, and Jordan, therefore, gets innocence points by association, if anything, Skruffs, not scum points.

And sorry about the whole points metaphor; Tali started it.

I agree that DOS’s analyses are tragically noncommittal...DOS votes for theopor in the last post, but read his very own analysis of theopor...would you vote for a player based on that anaysis? On the other hand, I know all about not having much time to spend on mafiascum, so DOS isn’t on the scum list just yet.

Are Ancalagon and Miztef still playing? If not, let’s get some replacements and wait for them to read before proceeding. If so...man, that’s some seriously scummy lurking.