Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[zakk]

Vote: Garmr

Not sure I like the tone of the double post. It seems like he's trying to minimize the impact of being third on the rvs wagon.

Best post of the game so far.

Vote: Garmr

I have to say that reaching isn't always scummy especially in the rvs stage of the game. If it helps us break out rvs then it can be good. The hard part is distinguishing between scummy reaching which scum are forced to do no matter what or town reaching like a protown player who plays from gut or a cop with a guilty who doesn't want to admit his a cop and the player who has a guilty has no real case on him at the moment. (Stole these examples from elsewhere )

Also if you think about it everyone has to reach to get out of the rvs stage. This is my thought on reaching anyway.

You seem a little overly verbose and proper all of a sudden (in direct contrast to your posts #8 and #9) and your theorizing about reaching and RVS seem to be more geared towards defusing a potential early wagon on you than actually helping other people understand anything you were actually talking about.

I like this Axxle guy, he doesn't waste any time and he knows what he's doing.

If I had to pick a second scum at this point, it would be toolenduso. Why is he apologizing for not being here earlier?

>first post was on page 1
>nobody had mentioned him yet
>he makes an excuse for being late
>he subconsciously feels guilty
>because he is scum

Also if toolenduso has been here since 2007 I would very, very much expect him to at least have an inkling of what EDBWOP means. Pretending to be clueless only adds to the suspicion I have of him.

What do the rest of y'all think? Specifically Thor and Albert and Axxle.

[zakk]

Wow, this game certainly got busy. I will read it sometime this weekend.

[zakk]

I too am getting a false bravado feel from Thor after a preliminary read through. I will have to go read his other games as well. Garmr changing his vote to me makes me feel even more satisfied with my vote on him. I'll comment more in depth about these situations and more I noticed, today or tomorrow. Before the end of the 3-day weekend for sure.

[zakk]

Unvote, Vote: Thor665

I do not like his smug tone and how he tries to undermine people's thought processes who think he is scum. It's like he's trying to discredit them to everyone else, AND to themselves at the same time. Also, I like to watch him squirm.

[zakk]

You're quite entertaining, Thor. Are you scum? Are you town and just really scummy? And most importantly, are you going to break up with Natalie Portman in The Dark World?

[zakk]

That is pretty much what I'm talking about. He seems to be crashing and burning and resorting to petty insults when he's been caught and tagged.

[zakk]

I can't overstate how amusing it is that the two players voting me are the two I called scum in my first post.

More thoughts soon.

[zakk]

ABR: "Lynch Thor! Or Garmr! No, wait, lynch Elyse because she didn't unvote when I asked! No, wait, lynch Thor again!"

This is exactly the kind of "gimme" defamation that I'd expect scum to stoop to. It's too easy. It's too obvious.

But then again, it has been equally obvious that toolenduso has been scum since his first post in the game, so I suppose I should not be surprised.

[zakk]

I'm really sorry everyone I have had basically no time or motivation to log on here to post anything but one liners for like the past week so if I am pretty much in the doghouse I understand. But it wasn't intentional and I have no desire to let things continue on without me any more. It's 2 am but I am finally available for a little while so dag nabit I am going to read as much of the game as I can before I fall asleep, so help me N.

[zakk]

I read a lot but there is still a lot more to read. My notes are going to be pretty long when this is done. Hopefully I can get all that into a manageable post. This game moves so much faster than any other game I have been in so far. There is a lot of good stuff to go on so far though.

[zakk]

Still reading. I have IceNinja, GuthrieGov/F-16, and TCold as townish, and Thor and Sir Bastion as scummish.
My mind on Garmr and toolenduso has changed somewhat. They look more likely to be town after continuing reading.

Unvote

if I am voting.

[zakk]

I think it's pretty clear we shouldn't lynch Thor straightaway.

Yes it's pretty clear he's scum of some kind but let's try to figure out if it's possible we're dealing with two killing factions here at least, first. Could there be a serial killer or a second mafia group? Is it possible that Thor is town and one of them killed F-16 to frame him?

I realize this will probably bring a lot of suspicion on me to even suggest that, but I feel like everyone is too excited to lynch something that seems like a sure thing, and I want to holster our guns and realize that the people who were killed died for a reason. Who did Maxous suspect? Who else did F-16 suspect? Who else did Albert suspect?

Let's not forget that we should give everyone else a chance to weigh in before potentially two more people die tonight.

One thing that struck me as odd was that Thor was trying to get people to kill IceNinja after he died. Why? Could it possibly because Thor knows that his scum faction didn't aim for Maxous, and that it might be another kill attempt that hit him? And he suspects IceNinja might be scum of another team?

These are all things I have to consider before I will even put my vote on Thor, who I feel should have been lynched yesterday and Albert was pretty obviously town (easy to say after the fact yes, but I was getting strong town vibes from him even before page 10 had elapsed).

I was gone for most of Day 1, yes, but I will try to be active now that I am about halfway caught up.

Also, since somebody else is most likely going to die tonight, I would like to hear everyone's thoughts about their top town reads and scum reads. I think the scum in the game already has a pretty good idea of who they want to kill, because day 1 was pretty long and drawn out and everyone got pretty settled into their stances, so I don't think too much will be gained by scum if we are to share our thoughts. I feel the more we all share with the community, the better off we all will be. The more we hold things to ourselves, the less likely it is we will be able to catch mafia members efficiently, logically, and rationally.

And the faster things go, the better it is for scum. Almost always.

So for the love of Albert B. Rampage and F-16 Fighting Falcon, please unvote Thor before he is quick-hammered by a buddy that wants to end discussion early.

[zakk]

Thank you, Garmr.

[zakk]

I would like to share some things from my re-read and my notes.

Sadly, GuthrieGov/F-16 was my top town read. That will now be rather useless. At least he's netted us one scum with his sacrifice. I recommend we go back and read his posts to figure out who else he suspected. Finding out Maxous' suspicions are actually probably even more important, because we know for sure he was killed for some reason or another, and that's as good a reason to kill somebody as any else, I suppose.

I have a strong town read on toolenduso. I know it didn't seem like that at first, and I certainly didn't help that out by sporadically posting prod dodges where I continually fingered him and Garmr as scum, but hey, after reading up, he's now sitting at the top of the stack after F-16's death. Why is he a strong town read, you ask? He has been asking good questions, seeming naive about things that I would expect town to seem naive about, doing his research; in stark contrast to ABR, who pretended to do research on Thor, toolenduso actually DID research on Thor and posted #265 which impressed me greatly. And even though I was being overly harsh on him at the beginning (mostly due to having nothing else to sink my teeth into), his first few posts were actually not that independently scummy and I feel like they are consistent with the rest of his behavior. It's vaguely possible that he is just playing us like a fiddle and has us completely hoodwinked, but I have more trust in my gut feelings than that. I will not lynch toolenduso and would recommend that nobody else lynch him either, should I die at any point.

Next on my list is Garmr. Yes. I know what you're thinking. The two people I have had as mafia all game are now my top two town reads. Well, there it is. And it is what it is. So I'm not ashamed of it. The reasoning behind that one is less solid than toolenduso, and far less solid than F-16 was. I have him down as "far too sloppy to be mafia" and his posts definitely prove it. I don't feel like he is posting just to post, and I don't feel as if his posts have a scummy ulterior motive to them. They feel pretty genuine for the most part, and though he tries to be useful and isn't really, most of the time, at least he seems to be trying. I liked his commentary on ABR early on in the game where he compared ABR's play to other games. I also really liked the comment he made in #171: "this might sound rich but I think there are scum on my wagon." That just really really doesn't feel to me like something that scum would think to say. It sounds hilariously town.

IceNinja comes next (regardless of what I said about about Thor wanting him dead, which might mean Thor believes he is rival scum of some kind). He seems to think things through a little better than Garmr and generally comes across as pro-town, but there are less eureka moments when I read his posts. I really liked early on when he admitted that he'd vote for who the person he is voting was also voting. That didn't seem to come from a scum mindset because I don't think scum would admit something that sounded so inconsistent with a particular train of thought. I also liked #267, and especially #268. I don't want to lynch IceNinja for now.

I have havingfitz and Elyse's player slots as rather more null. I have to read more of their (and their predecessor's) posts. I liked TCold's #63 about Sir Bastion, and Macros' #136 about Garmr though. Whether or not I agree with them is another thing entirely, but I liked the way those posts came across. They sounded genuine enough and/or made good points.

Slandaar is sitting in a volatile spot for me. I can't really read him too well. I think his early attack on Thor could have been elaborate bussing, but we'll see how he acts when Thor is dead. If he starts finding other scum immediately I can't say I will hate that in the least. And if scum decides to kill him off, at least it will rid us of a pretty WIFOMy slot which has strong ties to Thor. I may get a better read on him after reading some of his later posts though. So stay tuned.

I've got pretty much nothing on Axxle/Skelda. I have read more than half the game but I've only seen a few posts by Axxle, and though I liked his early post about Garmr, I have since come to disagree with the read I had on Garmr because of it, and I didn't feel particularly strongly one way or the other on any of the other posts I've read. This is another one of those reads you'll have to stay tuned on.

Maxous wasn't very high on my list of town reads, so I'm glad he died. That saves me a lot of trouble. It's also going to be a gold mine going back through his posts and finding out what he thought about whom.

The last two players in the game are Sir Bastion and Thor. They are the only two players I had scum reads on, and they are (or were) both very strong scum reads. I wish F-16 hadn't (presumably) suicided on Thor last night, because he was a clear choice to lynch today anyway, what with how scummy he was Day 1, and also given ABR's final wishes. I guess it made sense to him to give town a little more security in their decision, and perhaps he thought Thor could wiggle his way out of it yet again, but either way I wish he wouldn't have done it, as he was my strongest town read while he was alive. So, Thor being scum is a foregone conclusion by this point, but that leaves Sir Bastion.

I have a scum read on Sir Bastion for a number of reasons, most of which were early on in the game. He has since come back towards the middle of the scale somewhat, but I would still much rather lynch him than anyone else (except Thor) at this point. I am quite willing to be convinced that he is not scum, in fact, I have a note saying that if Thor is scum, he is less likely to be... not sure why I thought that, but it's in my notes under both Thor and Sir Bastion. Anyway, post 16 felt very contrived, post 26 was a soft-defend of Thor, 37 seemed to imply that he had nothing better to do than ignore certain people while waiting for others to post, 40 brings up how he was town in other games (as if to imply he is town here, or at least plant some kind of subconscious seed), and it also brings up something solely in order to be able to say "buuut, I'm not going to talk about it here" which is sketchy at best. he also spouts game theory in that post which seems unnecessary. I don't like in post 42 where he says "assuming I don't?" because that is a giant deflection. more unnecessary game theory in post 45. Jumping over to 112, he sticks with a vote on GuthrieGov while admitting his reasoning is shallow. He also questions GG in 113 to find out if GG thinks poorly of him. That's a weird thing for a townie to do. In post 168 he appears to have a good catch, but I don't like the way he talks about it as if it's only in passing, and seems detached, with his ellipses (...) and it feels like he's trying to point out awkward things about somebody in order to get others to latch onto them and do the dirty work of lynching them for him. Post 182 complains about having to slog through the Thor/Slandaar noisefest again, but it almost seems like he's not actually going to do it, he just wants people to think he is, so they'll think he's trying to be useful. Whether or not that's the case here, I don't like the attitude of trying to show off the things you're doing to help the game, and it feels off to me. I wrote under that point "Let's see if he comes up with anything worthwhile or is just posturing" and I don't have any notes after that which cancel out that sentiment. So clearly that's bad, and supports my idea that he never actually did re-read it, he just tried to snag some town credit for saying he was going to. 234 is a bunch of words with disproportionately little actual analysis of what was said, and it seemed to me like he was making a larger post in order to try to keep up the amount of posts he had at a competitive level with those who were posting the most in the game, solely for the sake of being seen as being active by other people.

To put it all into a few sentences (in case you weren't following along and looking at the posts, which you really should do), here's the case: He appears to be very aware and very concerned about what others think of him. He appears to be trying to plant thoughts into other people's subconscious to get them to feel certain ways about him and others, and that's not something town does. They are quite a bit more blunt about it. Kind of like I'm being right now, actually. And also, I just get a pretty good gut feeling that he's not one of the good guys, and that's always a nice cherry on top of the icing for me. So, logically speaking, we should lynch him after Thor.

But now, I want to read what everyone else thinks, and I'd like to finish reading the rest of the game before everyone else pummels Thor into the dust where he belongs. I want to be able to solidify my reads on certain people and develop reads on the people where I'm a little sparse on notes. Because I never feel very comfortable not having a stance on somebody. That makes me suspect them, and I don't like it when I suspect more people than can logically be scum in the game.

I think that's pretty much it. Hope this post was useful to you.

[zakk]

tl;dr Don't lynch Thor yet. Let's discuss things. Sir Bastion is next most likely scum. Don't lynch toolenduso or Garmr any time soon. Or me. R.I.P. F-16, Maxous, and ABR.

[zakk]

Why are people even talking to Thor? Clearly if he was town he'd be fighting his lynch, but as it is, he's just sitting around and making smart-aleck comments and probably yukking it up that he's even still alive right now. He's scum, nothing he says is to be trusted and clearly he's going to try to screw with us to mislead us. Just ignore him.

And someone said we have three confirmed townies? Who, and why? I haven't finished reading the game yet.

[zakk]

Oh, well then, I am thoroughly disappointed.

[zakk]

Why are you asking me what you would already know if you had... you know, read my posts?

There aren't that many of them, surely it shouldn't be too hard to accomplish. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[zakk]

I'm more suspicious of Maxous who hasn't laid down a vote and is content on just calling people towny while fueling the flames between the two wagons.


UNVOTE: Alby boy, VOTE: Maxous

EDWOP [/b

]
and he votes still through I find him suspicious for taking so long to vote and the way his just listing people as town so early in the game.

Slightly scummy. Looking for a reason to vote rather than looking for scum?

Also your points on Tool are fluff lol the only one I could consider not fluff is the one about pretending to be clueless and that's not really to strong of a sign.

Slightly scummy.
Unnecessary mudslinging at Zakk to discredit his read?

#121 + #134 <== slow to give out reads until directly called out

I'm trying to engage in one on one this round but i'm kinda failing. I'm not the best at defending myself from multiple people either as I tend to break down even as town Albert and T-cold know this from past experience with me.

Slightly scummy. Weird excuse.

Albert- Hasn't been helpful all game, Jumped on my wagon with little reasoning and just is irritating. Scum

Making a note of this reasoning for ABR-scum. It's all he ever gives.

@Tcold
Just a couple of questions and then feel free to ask me some.

1.What do you think of the scuffle between Slandaar and Thor.(I know you think Thor is suspicious but can you point out certain points.)
2.Do you have any scum reads on people no one has mentioned and why?
3.What's your current read of Tool since you didn't like him earlier but you haven't mentioned him since. So what helped confirm/change your read on him.

This is when he ignored the ABR-Thor debate despite ABR being his strongest scum-read.
It is very plausible that inexperienced scum would avoid such a debate like a plague because of not knowing how to handle the situation.
I did'nt see toolenduso shy away from it.
That was scummy.
His stated reason for not commenting was basically that nothing changed regarding ABR. But nothing to say about ABR's case on Thor???
'nothing changed' doesn't sound genuine.

If i'm nightkilled you now have my legacy.

[zakk]

This is a good wagon, likely on scum. I don't like ICEninja's constant efforts to subtly dismantle it. I am pretty sure Albert will flip scum and ICEninja is his buddy. If I die tonight, go for ICEninja.

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

before ICEninja pulls up more crap to try and dismantle it. HF and Skelda can post tomorrow.

Albert, if you really are town, I think Thor is the person town should look into if I die tonight.

I don't think he went "back and forth" Thor. That seems pretty cut and dried to me. He believed Albert was telling the truth, and he changed his target to you.

What exactly is your defense here? Because I'm not seeing how any of this "Vote IceNinja" baloney is anything but a last ditch attempt to prolong your life another miserable day.

If I die tonight, go for ICEninja.

Vote: Ice

If I die tonight, go for ICEninja.

Vote: Ice

his other claim fits better.

first he made it after the one you linked (10 posts later)

secondly he specified if Albert flipped town he was going to check you.

If albert had flipped scum I expect he would have hide behind ice and we would be in a very different game right now.

This actually changes my opinion of Sir Bastion somewhat (for the better).

I swear, if IceNinja, Sir Bastion, and Thor are all scum, I'm going to punch a hole in the wall.

[zakk]

Brb, gonna read all of IceNinja's posts.

[zakk]

What is your read on me, Thor?
I'm interested to know in light of your comments about me earlier when you were briefly voting me.

Thorough answer, please.

[zakk]

If Slandaar, Zakk, and Garmr all magically ended up dead and flipped, I wouldn't be a sad panda.

I've got a theory here:

I highly doubt that Slandaar and Thor are on the same team.
I highly doubt that if Thor is scum that he would put a list of all town.
I know I'm town.

Therefore, if Thor is scum, I'm willing to bet that my waffling read on Garmr is about to waffle back to scum.

[zakk]

Okay let me figure out where I am. I finished reading Thor (really scummy) and IceNinja (really town), and I'm now reading Garmr because Thor's post which I noted above made me want to check him out yet again. Here's where I'm at right now.

The Town Tier
zakk - Awesome and town.
ICEninja - Strong town read. Thor's insistence that he be lynched made me stray into WIFOM land for a bit, but after a re-read of his ISO I can comfortably say he's town.
toolenduso - Pretty strong town read as well. I feel like I'm getting to the point where I can throw him into the town bucket with IceNinja and stop worrying about him.

The Probably Town Tier
Garmr - Wafflied back and forth a little, but it's a pretty strong town read right now, as I'm reading his ISO. It comes to me also that the only reason I doubted this was because of Thor. So, there's that. I'm going to finish his ISO and if it changes I'll post something, but I don't think it will. For now he stays out of the Town tier and is in the Probably Town tier of my opinions.

The Seems Unlikely to Be Aligned With Pretty Obvious Scum Tier
Slandaar - I really don't think he's scum, if Thor is. And I think Thor is. If they are scum together though, they deserve to win just for the amount of baloney they put us through on Day 1. That amount of back and forth would be really hard to contrive on the fly with so many other factors (players) floating around and through the middle of it all. I still want to read Slandaar's posts for motivational tells though.

The Relatively Nothing Tier (Where Probably Resides At Least One Scum If Not Two)
TCold/havingfitz - Still need to read more of this slot. I have limited notes on TCold, and nothing on havingfitz.
Macros/Elyse - I had a vague opinion that Macros was townish, but I need to read much more deeply into that. Also, I have read nothing of Elyse.
Axxle/Skelda - Same as above, except exchange Macros for Axxle, and Elyse for Skelda.

The I Have Seen A Lot of Reasons To Think They're Scum Tier
Sir Bastion

The Pretty Obvious Scum Tier
Thor665 - Scum. No two ways about it. Consider my vote on him pending my reading being complete.

Also sorry for all the posts in a row but I'm on a roll here.

[zakk]

I have another 12 days 18 hours of this? ughhhhhhhhhh

Thor is scum lynch him.
Ice is scum lynch him tomorrow.

We need not discuss further.

Oh 3rd scum is Zakk 'Slands slot is wifomy' 'Slands not on same team as Thor'

I highly doubt IceNinja is scum, and I know for certain I'm not scum, so, you know, try again there buddy.

Sorry, I probably shouldn't antagonize you. We all saw what happened on Day 1, didn't we?

[zakk]

Yeah, Garmr has graduated into town reads, lol

Onto Macros/Elyse, TCold/havingfitz, and Axxle/Skelda.

[zakk]

TCold/havingfitz is probably town too. I like what I see so far.

[zakk]

Well good, at least now I know my thoughts are consistent with yesterday then, after all my re-reading. Thanks for that reassurance.

Quick re-reads indicate havingfitz and Skelda slots are probably town too. I am going to tackle Slandaar and Macros/Elyse re-reads tomorrow.

If Thor flips town, it changes everything of course, but if he flips scum then it's just a matter of time before we can bury the rest of them.

[zakk]

Your case assumes Thor is a)town, and b)not a manipulative person. Which means it is a bad case.

[zakk]

I'd have to agree with slandaar.

With the exception of skelda everyone else have given their 2 cents and thoughts, so we might as well drop the hammer and resume day 3.

Skelda has been given a grace period to catch up, everyone has given their thoughts so no matter who is knocked off tonight we have content to work with (except skelda of course). So we might as well move on.

Yeah. I agree at this point that Thor is the lynch for the day and there's no buts about that in anyone's mind.

I am too lazy right now to read up on the few people remaining so I'm gonna do this:

Vote: Thor665

His flip will either clear up a lot of things, or it will bust the game wide open because a ton of people's reads were wrong, and scum is totally manipulating us via night kills (if he's town). I mean, after all, it is possible that scum caught F-16's implication that "if he died" people should look into Thor, and perhaps they extrapolated that he was a Hider based on that. And either way it would be a win/win and Thor would be lynched much more easily if they killed off F-16, a pretty townie player.

And if he's scum then I disagree about IceNinja but that's a discussion for tomorrow when we'll see who's left alive. But I am very sure of my town reads, and I think the scum reads are either the people who I read as scum right now (Thor/Sir Bastion), or the people in my "I don't really have a read on them yet" section (Macros/Elyse, and Slandaar). So anyway let's get to that tomorrow.

Thor dies first. Bye, Thor. Fun playing with you but it's time for you to meet an end before this game takes any more crazy turns.

Hey, I just realized: It would be poetic justice if Thor hammered himself. Because, you know, Thor. Hammer. Heh.

[zakk]

So the answer is no you had no clue and thus it needed attention considering it is Thors entire case.

I glanced over it, thought "This is pretty unimportant, I'm going to pay attention to things that actually matter now", and the more you and Thor went on about it the more sure I was that one of you was scum.

Pretty sure which one it is right now.

What do you think about Thors case on me being completely made up by changing my wording?

That you're oversensitive about having the wording slightly changed to explain why he thinks what you did was scummy. Let me give an example:

Side by side
Thors Version: that might make sense...except he didn't offer a conclusion!
Actual Version: My example was more accurate because yours ends with a conclusion and his posts did not.

Those things are pretty much the same thing, with a spin on it to emphasize how unreasonable you're being. And you call it a misrep (I'm starting to begin to think no one in this game actually understands what misrepresentation is).

OK SLANDAAR I HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU.

WHY DO YOU THINK REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN THIS SAME SHIT THAT NO ONE BUT YOU THINKS IS SCUMMY IS GOING TO MAKE US THINK HE IS SCUMMY?

@Ice - Actually, looking at those reads, I'm starting to lean 'not Slaandar' with ABR, really. What do you think about that?

The voting patterns indicate that Slandaar and Albert are

probably

not connected, but day 1 voting patterns I take with a grain of salt until the lynch happens. I don't want to go in to my reasoning as for why I think Slandaar is scum based on Albertscum in case I'm wrong about Albert, I think it's pretty dumb (and sometimes even benefiting of scum) to go too much in to associative tells when everyone involved is alive.

Bastion's summary of Albert's actions in 518 is pretty much spot on. It is quite similar to what I was planning on posting, minus the fact that I would word "appeal to authority" as using sheer force of will/personality to accomplish a goal instead of using logic, which has been a trend sch as his "defense" against my original attack on him. While I know this simply is something Albert does, the fact that he has no good scum leads at the moment (or all day really) and has been using this force anyway to direct town seems to play a lot more to a scum win condition than town.

WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH LEAVE THOR ALONE!!!

Well show me this misrep I assume you know what it is Ice.

The existence or non existence of any misrep that may or may not have happened has

zero

implications of my read on you. Now please start being useful or I will seriously just start skipping your posts because you hardly ever say anything new. I seriously cannot believe how caught up you are on shit that happened in the first few pages of the game when there is SO. MUCH. CONTENT. TO. TALK. ABOUT.

God I hope we have a vig...

I DUNNO WHATS GOING ON I HAVE NO OPINION ON IF THERE WAS A MISREP OR NOT BECAUSE I AM A SCUMBAG WHO HAS NOT LOOKED AT WHAT THOR IS SAYING

Like, I seriously cannot believe that pretty much 2 pages were dedicated to talking about this.

Thor's suggestion of Slandaar being lynched after Albert flips scum makes a lot of sense to me, as I have already stated that Albert being scum makes Slandaar look like scum too.

YEAH SLAND SCUM IF ABR SCUM!!! HAR HAR HAR THAT WILL STOP SLAND TRYING TO LYNCH MY BUDDY THOR!!!

Thor just stop engaging him. We all realize how insane he sounds.

HEY THOR IGNORE SLAND PLEASE BUDDY YOU ARE GOING TO GET LYNCHED OTHERWISE

Also, with the VT claim, I'm pretty much happy lynching ABR at this point.

I do want the replacements to have some more time to contribute, however, and TCold really needs some damn attention right now.

We've got a few days, but I don't think day 1 needs to run up to the deadline

OK ABR CLAIMED VT LETS LYNCH HIM!!!

Logic is pointing to ABR as scum but this wagon is developing too easily without enough counter. Slandaar really is the only one pushing elsewhere.

The only way this makes sense is if both scum buddies is in Slandaar and [all the lurkers]. Which now that I think about it, could be entirely possible, but still.

I'm feeling uneasy about this.

What are people's opinion of lynching Slandaar today and worrying about ABR later? The biggest reason I can think of to not do this would be that ABR already claimed, but beside that gut is telling me this is the right move.

TCold would still be a solid option too, though it looks like he's going to end up being force replaced, and we did just get a new player. I suppose I'll sit on this for a little. For the record I'm still willing to lynch ABR but day 1 wagons that have so minimal counter push tend to fall on town.

HRM THIS IS TOO EASY MAYBE ABR TOWN ANYONE WANNA LYNCH SLAND INSTEAD??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's three votes on Garmr and three on Thor right now. Do those not count as wagons?

Not if you look at WHO the votes on Garmr are.

"I barely remember Thor"
"Thor is so good at scum he can make me have doubts"
"Thor is being so bad and oversimplifying, he is obv. scum."

Flail more.

While I admit I've been nodding along with much of what ABR has said, exactly this kept popping in my head. Honestly, I was this close || to being convinced that I was wrong and ABR is town but he lies about knowing how Thor plays. Repeatedly. And this isn't the drawing people out and gathering reads, this is blatantly lying about what you know about Thor.

Go to MD and look at my playstyle as scum. I broke it down for you.

No, meta defenses like this are scummy. You're certainly too good of a player for it to be that easy to tell.

Barring something dramatic, i'll be voting Garmr or Thor at the end of the day period.
I'll wait and see where the replacements vote etc.

And this actually makes me feel a little better about my decision.

My vote stays where it is. I'm not confident at all here, but I feel like this is town's best bet.

OK I AM HAPPIER TO LYNCH ABR NOW THAT MY TOWN READ MAX HAS SHOWN OPPOSITION TO IT!

You're at L-2. I highly doubt you'll end up quicklynched. I as well don't like all the AtE you've been putting out.

And just to remind people, deadline is actually coming up soon. We've got a few days, but if someone wants to derail this wagon on ABR it had better be right now, and damn convincing.

ANYONE WANNA DERAIL THE ABR WAGON??? ANYONE??? I COULD USE A WAGON ON A TOWNIE TO SEE WHAT THEY CLAIM!!!

I'm feeling a lot better about this ABR lynch based on things like what Maxous just said and how so many people are deliberately avoiding this elephant in the room.

This feels a LOT more like trying to lynch scum. It is HARD to.

YEAH MAX SHOWING OPPOSITION TO THIS WAGON MAKES ME FEEL HAPPIER WITH THE LYNCH!!!

I've told you time and time again to actually contribute to this game instead of repeating over and over and over (ad nasium) about the same points that

every single player in this game besides you

agree are meaningless.

I'm not the only one frustrated about it. I'm just calling it like I see it.

LOOK SLAND STOP TRYING TO LYNCH THOR AND DO SOMETHING ELSE LIKE HELP ME LYNCH TOWN ABR

Honestly. Please.

Do us a favor and read your own ISO. I want you to understand the % of your content that is related in one way or another to some misrep that may or may not have happened in the first few pages of the game.

It's overwhelming. You're unwilling to talk about anything else.

Your entire case on Thor is predicated on how he responds to interactions regarding this misrep. You made some pathetic attempt to scum hunt me and then that was it, back to "look how Thor handled this SUPER FUCKING IMPORTANT misrep, he's SO FUCKING OBVIOUSLY SCUM".

Do you even have opinions of players besides Thor?

PLEASE LOOK HOW MUCH YOU ARE TRYING TO LYNCH MY BUDDY THOR!!! I STILL DONT UNDERSTAND THIS MISREP STUFF!!!!

Because I'm quite happy with either lynch. As of this moment, I'm more confident in ABR flipping scum, though not by much.

If town really wanted to swing and lynch Slandaar instead today (as I believe I've alluded to before) I'd be alright with that. There just doesn't seem like much momentum for that.

AH COME ON YOU GUIZ LETS LYNCH SLAND!!! HE HASNT CLAIMED AND ABR WHO I AM CONFIDENT IS SCUM IS GOING TO BE LYNCHED BUT THAT DONT MATTER SLAND LYNCH MUCH MORE PROFITABLE FOR ME!!!!

First, this whole post is riddled with confirmation bias.

Second, cool it with the caps lock. Nobody wants to read that baloney.

Third, your points are coming across as oddly self-serving.

It's almost like you can't wait to just lynch one guy and move on to the next, stopping only to loot the corpse for as much town cred as you can possibly squeeze out of it. That's an attitude I see more as coming from bussing scum than earnest town. Town seems to want to deliberate more. Heck, I want to deliberate for as long as possible now that I know that the mafia don't have day talk abilities any longer.

I mean, Sir Bastion makes a good point in his post #929; everyone is more or less back on the board, suspicion-wise.

For all we know, we have weak scum like Garmr who, though he screwed up at first, Thor realized he'd have to carry Garmr on his back and teach him how to play the newb card and manipulate people in ways that Thor can't seem to do because he's relatively more well known around the site. Taking this example to the extreme, it's entirely possible that Thor was even writing full posts for Garmr, sending them to him, and just having Garmr copy-paste them into his next forum post. That kind of anonymity would allow Thor to deliberately craft someone else's image without the responsibility of living up to certain expectations. That would be a pretty large advantage.

Secondly, it's entirely possible with the day talk ability that the mafia pulled some kind of sophisticated distancing act on Day 1 between two members that would help cement the two as different alignments in everyone's mind. Such an argument could be carefully controlled and coordinated back and forth on both the front end and on the back side and they could push and pull as necessary and pretend to try to get each other lynched. All the while, they would be looking for a scapegoat, someone else to take the blame. And until they found that scapegoat, they would continue to throw digs at each other and have ridiculous amounts of confirmation bias (sound familiar?) in their posts, arguing over such small details that nobody else could follow the argument, or quickly lost the desire to after such wanton repetition, and all of this relentlessly continuing far past the point of reason, such that everyone would write off the entire situation as townies infighting and therefore chalk it up to something that's better off left ignored because there is little to be gained. Because I know that's what I would do. Of course you realize by this point that I'm talking about you and Thor, during Day 1.

I mean, Slandaar, throw me a bone here. If you're such a profitable lynch that both Thor and IceNinja wanted out of the way (your very own comment on IceNinja's post 697, ring a bell?), then what's your brilliant hypothesis on why you haven't been killed at night yet?

[zakk]

Oh wow, I didn't realize it was this close to a lynch. I posted before finishing reading.

However, I have read a little since I made that last post (including just now seeing the L - 1), and after examining Thor/Ice/Slandaar, I would like at least one person to unvote please. Not because I think Ice is town, but because I want to hear the claim. I am not 100% yet because both Slandaar and IceNinja look bad, but it seems likely that Ice could have been framed by the havingfitz kill, specifically because of how hard havingfitz was pushing IceNinja at the end of Day 2. That doesn't mean he is town in the least, but Slandaar's got a lot to answer for as well, and I just don't want a lynch to go through yet.

I still have a town read on toolenduso. I don't want him lynched, ever.

I want to read more of Maxous' posts and find out why two people have been killed before Slandaar even though Slandaar did a lot of pushing on Thor, and seemed nearly clairvoyant (or just sorely confirmation biased) what with his nearly reasonless push on Thor for most of Day 1. Also the whole "If I die lynch IceNinja" thing is extremely similar to Thor's "When I flip town lynch IceNinja" and it's almost like they're three active, forceful, moderately influential players trying to make everybody just blow their brains out from frustration.

That is exactly why we shouldn't have a lynch yet.

There's no reason to go off half-cocked here. Somebody unvote.

[zakk]

IceNinja, it's pretty interesting how your opinion changed on Garmr from "he's an easy lynch" when he's being voted, to "he's probably lurking scum, vote: Garmr" when the pressure was off. Care to comment on that?

[zakk]

I never really addressed IceNinja's post #763. I was too busy reading up on the game, which I still haven't finished. But anyway, I have some questions about it now, so here it is again:

I've never encountered a hider before. It gets fake claimed a lot, so I typically lynch anyone who claims to be one.

And now here are the questions...

I've never encountered a hider before.

Okay, great, you've never encountered one. So... you don't know what it does?

It gets fake claimed a lot, so I typically lynch anyone who claims to be one.

Well, then why would you lynch someone who claimed to be one?

Wouldn't you find out what it does first, before finding out if it's a good thing to fakeclaim as scum?

And then after you DID go look on the wiki and find out, why in the world would you want lynch someone who is BOTH really hard for scum to night kill, AND is functionally a cop (as long as townies are not stupid, and go read their posts again after they see a Hider flip)?

Why wouldn't you just wait for them to die via hiding behind scum, and then lynch the scum they handed to you on a silver platter?

Your moon logic is so counter-

intuitive

intelligence

that my brain is literally starting to hurt while trying to comprehend it.

[zakk]

Honestly, I have thought Thor/Slandaar/Garmr too, at some points of the game, especially given the not-so-gradual increase in competence levels displayed in Garmr's posts, and Slandaar conveniently suspecting Thor way before there was any reason to... but, I have to take into account your scumminess as well.

So right now I'm hoping for an unvote and hoping to stall this wagon on you as long as possible so we can get our heads screwed on straight again and get all the questions answered and after all of that, everyone can see if they still feel the same way about things, and then lynch you if we still want to.

Honestly, I considered hammering you and hoping for a scum flip because it was 50/50, but then I realized it's not just 50/50... there's an outside chance that you're both town and things are just coming to a head because of Slandaar's abrasive personality. And anyway, quick hammering is just not the right move at this point.

I'll gladly hammer you later if Slandaar has some great reasons for the things he did, or why he's alive, and even more so if you don't have good explanations.

[zakk]

I'm interested in finding out the truth. If that means not being consistent in my opinions when new information is presented, so be it.

Are you interested in the truth being known? Because if you don't speak up quick, somebody is going to make sure you lose your chance.

[zakk]

I mean, Slandaar, throw me a bone here. If you're such a profitable lynch that both Thor and IceNinja wanted out of the way (your very own comment on IceNinja's post 697, ring a bell?), then what's your brilliant hypothesis on why you haven't been killed at night yet?

The point is he tried shifting wagons off of someone he was confident is scum onto someone who he is less confident is scum AFTER the first person (ABR) had claimed VT.

That is pure profits for scum. Also ABR was already dead he was never surviving the make a case up stuff so my lynch was worth infinitely more.

Brilliant Hypothesis?
N1: HAR HAR LETS LYNCH SLAND TOMORROW KILL MAX HE OBVTOWN
D2: OH WELL THOR DIED
N2: Fitz is PR lets kill him.

N2 could be different for example: LET KILL FITZ HE IS OBVTOWN AND GONNA VOTE ICE JUST LIKE SLAND BY FITZ EVEN LESS LIKELY TO BE LYNCHED THAN SLAND.

Wasn't really a brilliant hypothesis more like common sense.

Well, okay. That's not bad at all actually. And I saw another post by you that gave me super strong town vibes so you are off the docket today methinks. I am liking the Skelda pressure. I want to read more of that slot... I have other priorities right now, but I will be back for sure.

[zakk]

There seems to be some pretty good evidence of Slandaar being town.

Yeah, pretty much.

And like I said earlier, if Thor and Slandaar are actually both mafia, then they get a solid thumbs up from me for how well they are playing off each other.

ICEninja, I find your lack of faith disturbing.

[zakk]

You seem very upset. Why are you so upset?

[zakk]

"Someone has to protect this family from the man who protects this family." - Skyler White

Hey, I just watched that episode tonight! I love the show. You?

I still think we should ignore ICEninja today and lynch somebody else, just to spite Slandaar.

[zakk]

Who were the only people arguing against the ICE wagon? Me and zakk.

If ICE were scum, I would basically expect exactly what happened to happen. There are a few other things other people have brought up against ICE that I think are good, but they've already been said and I'll leave them out of this post.

If we lynch ICE and he flips scum, his partner is me or zakk and makes Skelda look like town stretched across too many games. I will defend myself accordingly if that's the case.

And if I die tonight, I think that lends more weight to this theory.

Hey, you. Stop doing this whole pointing the finger at both tool and zakk but actually really only be pointing it at zakk thing. That's dumb. You're not seriously going to simply that you're scum by process of elimination, and then say that you'll defend yourself, are you? I'm town, you're town.

And the whole notion of if you die tonight your theory gains credence, how does it benefit the scum in your hypothesis to kill off the only other suspect according to your case (assuming ICEninja flips scum)?

ICEninja feels possibly town. I still don't want to hammer him yet, though I have had lots of chances to. I think we need to do something else today, which may or may not probably but possibly maybe involve lynching Sir Bastion.

Vote: Sir Bastion

This feels a lot righter to me than anything else. Please just trust me.

[zakk]

If Bastian or Elyse is scum then town loses, which is fine because at that point scum deserves the win.

No. Garmr is town. As is toolenduso. Slandaar is also probably town. And the more I read of your posts, the more I think you're town too.

Which leaves the remaining 2 scum inside of Skelda, Elyse, and Bastion. And why couldn't it be any of them? I haven't heard any evidence from anyone why they're town... in fact, they seem to be floating on the periphery of everyone's vision.

Stop letting them, guys. They are going to skate by and kill me because I'm the only one who suspects them who is still alive.

I have little else to say for this game day except that Sir Bastion is a much better lynch than ICEninja at this point.

[zakk]

Ugh, I can't stop thinking about this game. I need to re-read this game. Or at least, certain people. First things first though... and that's not this game. Mmrf.

[zakk]

At the moment I still think Skelda is more likely to be town than scum. Is we lynch Skelda today and he's town, then I'm on the chopping block tomorrow.

I'm trying to figure out a way for town to win this despite being wrong about me.

That's kind of what I'm trying to figure out too.

Yes, Bastion, my considerable "case" on you is still the same one. Why would I go and put together another one when I already have a perfectly good one? I'd love for you to actually address the first one, by the by. You seem content to point a lot of fingers, but when others point them at you, you just ignore them.

ICEninja, do you actually think Slandaar is scum, or are you just being a survivalist?

[zakk]

Sigh ice your just digging a bigger hole. You don't hammer people you think are town. tell me what was running through your head when you said that.

Does he supposedly have a town read on Skelda?

[zakk]

I see that as more of a statement saying that while Skelda may be above 50% on the town/scum scale for ICEninja, he'd still rather lynch someone else than himself.

I also probably read that a lot differently than you because while it is survialistic it's got kind of a solo survivalistic feel to it. Somewhat more like a townie than a scum would have, because scum would know it's got partners, but ICEninja's post 1081 feels like it's kind of written in a lonely mindset.

Take from that what you will.

[zakk]

Okay I can kind of agree with that but I still want you to stop tunneling on hiim and start focusing on somebody other than one person daily. So what do you think of Elyse and Skelda? How about Sir Bastion?

[zakk]

Ooooh. Vanilla townie. Didn't see that coming. Didn't see it coming at all.

I need to re-read the whole game. Don't rush anything please.

[zakk]

Hey tool, no, you shouldn't do that (2,000 word magazine article just for the sake of writing a lot of words). It's not about proving Slandaar wrong. It's about finding scum. Therefore you should go search for scum.

Hey Slandaar, I'm town. I also still believe tool is town (though with ICEninja AND Sir Bastion being town, everyone's reads are shaken up now), so... if we're both town, who is the scum then?

[zakk]

Actually wait, Thor did defend toolenduso pretty heavily didn't he? At least when I was pushing the "you're from 2007 you should know what EBWODP means" angle. I feel like he was trying to make me look bad for pushing that angle, which is consistent with how he tried to make people look bad for pushing other angles too. I'll have to go re-read with everyone's alignment in mind.

Sir Bastion in particular has me scratching my head.

[zakk]

It's almost like scum is taunting me.

[zakk]

My motivation level for this game is super low. This game is probably gonna be lost cause. Don't mind hammering No Lynch.

Vote: No Lynch

[zakk]

SERIOUSLY?


...you suck so hard, scum. I spent four days on my book and now it doesn't even make sense to post it.

Post it anyway. It'll help, even if it's wrong.

[zakk]

Um ok?

I thought Slandaar was probtown but he was very lynchable, especially with tool breathing down his neck. No idea why scum killed him.

Ok so if one person in {Garmr, Skelda, zakk} has a PR then we win because we have the scumteam in the VTs.

Everyone claim in your next post.

Sadly I'm not a PR.

The Slandaar kill was rather confusing, but I guess he had just about outlived his usefulness to scum.
What's worth looking at will be his suspicions following ICEninja. Not saying they're right, but it'll be useful.

[zakk]

Excellent. Toolenduso is town, 100%.

NEXT.

[zakk]

Wait, I just realized something

There are 5 people alive. Which means that out of the 5 people, since I have two 100% town reads (me and toolenduso), that there are 2/3 scum for Garmr, Elyse, and Skelda.

That means that Elyse and Skelda are the scum.

I was really hard on the fence about Slandaar and I'm glad he died because things would have been very confusing today if he was left alive.

But I have never pushed Elyse or Skelda very hard so it makes sense why I am still alive.

And Garmr well, he's been nothing if not pretty transparent, whereas I have never gotten that from either Elyse or Skelda.

I am going to go re-read some things and then I'm going to vote.

This game might be a win after all.

[zakk]

Haha. In a sense, the Slandaar kill was pretty much the best possible thing that could have happened.

[zakk]

I just did an interesting little thing. I went to Thor's iso and searched for everyone's name, to see who he was talking about and who he was avoiding, about who's left in the game.

zakk = 28
Garmr = 26
tool = 38

Okay, whatever.

Axxle 6 + Skelda 2 = 8
Macros 2 + Elyse 2 = 4

So ALL THREE of us up above has more than TWICE the mentions of BOTH the other player slots AND their replacements PUT TOGETHER.

I'd love to see either Skelda or Elyse address that ...

[zakk]

No offense

, zakk, but that analysis was pretty bad.

Why would the scum kill hinge upon you? Again,

not to sound rude

, but do you think you're important enough for scum to base their NK on how you would react? I don't think anyone is that important, and if the scumteam believed that truly, why wouldn't they just kill you? I think the scumteam was either aiming for a PR or just trying to confuse us because tool and I were on almost everyone's town list. I (

stupidly

) already claimed VT and idk why they didn't kill tool but I'm pretty sure he's town so I don't really care.

It seems to me like a bs reason not to vote Garmr.

And suddenly, a

zakk/Garmr scumteam

makes perfect sense.

Ooooh. Ouch. Sorry, you just put the first nail in your own coffin.

How? I'll tell you how.

You're trying to convince me that you're right. You're trying to introduce doubts into my head about my own theories. You're trying to win me over to your side by being self deprecating, and by being polite.

Why? Because you know I'm town. If you didn't, you wouldn't bother using phrases like "no offense but I think that's pretty bad", you would just say "You're scum. And therefore your argument is false"

But you're not.

You're doing it wrong. And now you're going to die.

Vote: Elyse

[zakk]

When that's a proven scumtell, come back to me.

You're reaching a lot here and you didn't even address my points against your "revelation".

Thor is the type of player who wouldn't hesitate to bus his buddy anyway. That means nothing.

I'm not reaching. I'm just putting numbers out there.

I didn't ever imply it was a proven scumtell, though your immediate defensiveness IS actually a pretty reliable scumtell, in my experience.

And I am pretty sure I know what type of a player Thor is. He uses humor and deflection to try to get what he wants. Only this time, there seemed to be a lot of strong personalities in the game, and people didn't want to put up with his stuff, so he got a little out of control and flailed a little too much and got voted out early.

And anyway, your opinion on what type of player Thor is, is pretty moot. Why? Because you're scum.

You just did the exact same thing Thor did ALL FREAKING GAME. He didn't address points as they were brought up. He just flipped the table (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ and kept right on trucking. But he also called into question the authority/credibility of the person he was dealing with, almost without exception. And you're now doing the exact same thing.

Care to address THAT?

[zakk]

Holy crap zakk unvote right now. There are two scum left and it takes three to lynch. You will lose this game for town.

It's only dangerous to vote town. It's not dangerous to vote scum.

Don't worry. I've got this under control.



Finally.

[zakk]

Tool, even if it is Elyse/Garmr instead of Elyse/Skelda (which it's probably not), Elyse is still a completely safe vote for townies.

I will put all of my credibility for future games on this.

Elyse is scum.

[zakk]

Um ok?

I thought Slandaar was probtown but he was very lynchable, especially with tool breathing down his neck.

No idea why scum killed him.

Ok so if one person in {Garmr, Skelda, zakk} has a PR then we win because we have the scumteam in the VTs.

Everyone claim in your next post.

Here's what I see:

A. distancing from being scum -- "I have no idea why scum would do thaaaat!" is code for "Look at me, I'm TOTALLY town you guys!"
B. power role hunting -- asking other people to claim, which not only distracts from scumhunting and puts attention on an artificial construct, but is also completely useless for townies and horribly useful for scum, under the thin veneer of having town's best interests at heart.

No thanks. She's a bad guy.

Might as well vote her now and let Garmr hammer her when he gets back.

[zakk]

Okay tool, since you think it's Garmr/Skelda I will unvote real quick.

Unvote: Elyse

But do you really not see anything I've said before as coming from scum?

Elyse is really really obviously scum.




And Elyse, I'm not going to dignify any of your posts with a response, since they are clearly only self-preservatory, fashioned to make you look as town as possible and designed to make anyone who reads them think you're just a poor widdo townie who's being unfairly bullied. Which is bull.

[zakk]

Can you at least understand why we should wait for Garmr and Skelda to claim before we vote?

Oh believe me, I understand. I understand completely.

[zakk]

Garmr and Skelda. Despite what he's doing now, zakk pushed for me to be cleared. I don't see why scum would do that in the situation we were in at the beginning of day five.

But I also think you're right, that if Garmr or Skelda claims a PR the scum will be the two VT's of the group.

Ok I could see that.

Well I'm a VT and I am definitely not scum.

The reason Elyse agrees with this, tool, is because she thinks claims can save either her or Skelda, and will screw over somebody else. This is a false dilemma.

Preview edit: And I didn't mean "did you think stuff I've said was scummy", I meant "did you think stuff I've pointed out about Elyse was scummy"

[zakk]

Fair enough.

[zakk]

Also, do you think, in the very least, that both scum wouldn't, in a situation like this, be ready and waiting for the first unwitting townie to throw a vote down on someone? Some people might say "hey, I have a life outside mafia, I can't always be online" which is true for the most part, but if you have a life and you care about it, then wouldn't you have a vested interest in making sure this game ends so you can get back to it?

Either way, here's what we know, or should know.

I'm town. I know that. You don't have to know it, but it's true, and you should think it.
toolenduso is town. Mostly because of things which happened today, but today's case against Slandaar was just icing on the cake.

That leaves scum in the last 3, which is, Garmr, Elyse, and Skelda.

Elyse is scum without a doubt in my mind. And Garmr is town nearly without a doubt in my mind as well.

Skelda is meh, and I don't have too many strong feelings one way or another (which, for the record, is great for scum to have town feel that way about them), but if it's not anyone else, it must be Skelda. Hence the process of elimination strategy strikes again.

Honestly, scum really should have killed anyone BUT Slandaar last night. They just made this game easy.

[zakk]

Seems like a weird choice of who to kill.

I was kinda expecting tool to be killed. We should probably be careful with our votes it's mylo.

Um ok?

I thought Slandaar was probtown but he was very lynchable, especially with tool breathing down his neck. No idea why scum killed him.

There's a difference between these three posts.

The other two are faking confusion because that's what they hoped to cause.

Only Garmr says he thought somebody else was going to be killed.

Garmr is town. The other two are scum.

[zakk]

So,

I think Gramr is likely town, which seems contrary to popular belief.

I read his confusion on Day 1 as genuine, and scum don't usually like to seem confused. I'd like an ICE lynch today. Alright?

@Skelda: Why are you null on me?

I've felt like I've not liked some of the reasons for your hopping on wagons, but at the same time I don't think I'm convinced you are scum either. It doesn't matter, I'll be voting zakk or Slandaar in LyLo. Maybe

Garm if I get some good reasons to

, but if you are scum you've won.

1. Contradicts self in read of Garmr; seems likely town / would maybe vote him
2. Encourages people to convince him that Garmr is scum. Why don't you convince yourself?

There is literally no reason to keep Skelda or Elyse alive. They are the remaining 2 scum.

The only reason I am not voting them right now is because tool is paranoid.

[zakk]

Process of elimination.

I'm not scum. You're not scum.

It doesn't matter if you THINK Elyse is scum or not if she is. And she is.

So what say we stop talking about your feelings, and get down to brass tacks?

You will need to convince me that Garmr is scum without a doubt, or else you'll have to agree to lynching Elyse.

[zakk]

Thank you. Now, zakk, why do you think Garmr is town? And Garmr, why do you think zakk is town?

He feels really genuine to me. I don't really know how to explain it. It's just a gut feeling mostly.

And that usually is enough for me.

[zakk]

Process of elimination.

I'm not scum. You're not scum.

It doesn't matter if you THINK Elyse is scum or not if she is. And she is.

So what say we stop talking about your feelings, and get down to brass tacks?

You will need to convince me that Garmr is scum without a doubt, or else you'll have to agree to lynching Elyse.

I'M TOWN. This is ludacris. It certainly DOES matter what tool thinks. You are trying to manipulate him into thinking I'm scum and it's really obvious.

And wtf is with "you'll need to convince me Garmr is scum or else you have to lynch Elyse"??? You are forcing him into two positions he doesn't need to take. What if he wants to vote for you or Skelda? Are those not options because YOU say so?

Lastly, not responding to my points because they're concerned with self-preservation is bullshit and ridiculously scummy. I'm explaining why you're wrong and you're ignoring me. How does that make ANY sense?

Okay if you're really really actually town, then please give me uber-strong cases on both Garmr and Skelda being scum. Go.

If this doesn't happen, then we're lynching you and Skelda.



Basically we're at a point where we can force one of the scum to vote the other if they want to even have the slight possibility of getting a win. And once that happens, the scum will have to narrow down the lynch pool even more.

I know for a fact that I'm not dying tonight. Which means I'll be around tomorrow to push the other of whoever is left of Skelda and Elyse.

[zakk]

NOTHING ZAKK IS SAYING ABOUT ME HAS ANY MERIT.

Seriously wtf is this a joke? I've been protown all game and suddenly zakk decides to post a bs case on me and I'm scum?

Remember when I singal handedly got scumThor lynched? Or is that out the window now?

You single handedly got Thor lynched? What dreamland are you living in?

And how does "being protown all game" have anything to do with your actual alignment? (It doesn't)
If you're scum, you're scum, and "being protown" is your goal.

Unfortunately, you've failed in that goal. Time to say goodnight.

[zakk]

Process of elimination.

I'm not scum. You're not scum.

It doesn't matter if you THINK Elyse is scum or not if she is. And she is.

So what say we stop talking about your feelings, and get down to brass tacks?

You will need to convince me that Garmr is scum without a doubt, or else you'll have to agree to lynching Elyse.

I'M TOWN. This is ludacris. It certainly DOES matter what tool thinks. You are trying to manipulate him into thinking I'm scum and it's really obvious.

I'm trying to convince him. There's a difference. A rather large difference.

And wtf is with "you'll need to convince me Garmr is scum or else you have to lynch Elyse"??? You are forcing him into two positions he doesn't need to take. What if he wants to vote for you or Skelda? Are those not options because YOU say so?

He knows that 2 of 5 are scum. He knows who 1 of the townies are (himself). Therefore, it's 50/50 to him, he's just got to pick the right 2 of the remaining 4. Okay good, now that's out of the way.

So, out of you, Skelda, and Garmr, there are 2 scum. And it's not Garmr, even though tool thinks it is. In your eyes, the scum should be Garmr and Skelda, no questions asked.

But you're still trying to push other angles because you know if things get narrowed down, you lose.

Lastly, not responding to my points because they're concerned with self-preservation is bullshit and ridiculously scummy. I'm explaining why you're wrong and you're ignoring me. How does that make ANY sense?

I have the luxury of being ridiculously scummy because I'm town and everyone knows it.

I intend to play that angle as much as I can. No offense.

[zakk]

Elyse, if you're not scum, and/or if you don't want to be lynched, you're going to have to convince me of Garmr's guilt. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[zakk]

Yeah. It's Skelda/Elyse. They know they have to get me lynched in order to win. And that's what they're gearing up to try to do. Out-shout me, use bold-caps, whatever they can do to try to convince you and Garmr, tool.

I'm interested to know who they think is my scumbuddy though? If I'm scum, I've got to have a scumbuddy. But it makes no sense for it to be anybody. I am probably the only person in the game who has taken strong stances on everyone in the game thus far.

tool/Garmr: Why don't you go check the interactions between Elyse/Skelda/Thor... doesn't it look like they're avoiding talking to or about each other?

I'm not scum, scout's honor. You'll just have to trust me on this. If you can't trust me, then the game is lost.

That's pretty much all there is to it. It's zakk vs Elyse/Skelda.
And I swear on the sword of my father Inigo Montoya that I'm town.

[zakk]

TOOL LOOK HOW FAST SKELDA VOTED HIM
UNVOTE AHHHH

SKELDA IS SCUM

[zakk]

Vote: Skelda

This game was lost from the moment people started lynching peeps like ABR.

I feel like I've been the only sane one this whole game.

[zakk]

I really really really think it's Skelda and Elyse.

Can you please just agree to lynch Skelda with me today. When Skelda flips scum we can argue about Garmr/Elyse tomorrow

[zakk]

Actually wait, one of us would die overnight and that would mean we couldn't argue about it tomorrow. But which ever one of us dies will be pretty telling in who's scum. Scum will want to WIFOM it, and they know what we think and they'll know who we want to lynch, but they will also want to manipulate us.

Personally I think all townies should unvote, and we should continue discussing.

Clearly I'm not scum, and I don't think you are either, Tool.

Unvote plz

Unvote

[zakk]

I feel like I've been the only sane one this whole game.

Yes, exactly.

[zakk]

Drat, drat, drat. I'm going to lose you the game, I can feel it. And Elyse, shouldn't we no lynch today and then massclaim and lynch tomorrow?

I have townvibes from Gramr and Elyse. I think zakk and ICE are scum. I'm nullish on tool, although I've had a weird feeling about them.

Look at this post. Look at it.

[zakk]

That's probably the most transparently scum post Skelda has made all game.

>waffling back and forth about losing the game.
>asking people questions about what to do
>saying they have town vibes and scum vibes (none of which match up to what he claims to believe now, or which have already proven to be wrong)

[zakk]

Tool, I swear, unless you are scum WITH Skelda... which is looking increasingly likely, given the circumstances, then you are making a huge mistake.

Skelda should be gone today. And only Skelda.

Vote: Skelda

Elyse, Garmr, if you're town, you know what to do.

[zakk]

Drat, drat, drat. I'm going to lose you the game, I can feel it. And Elyse, shouldn't we no lynch today and then massclaim and lynch tomorrow?

I have townvibes from Gramr and Elyse. I think zakk and ICE are scum. I'm nullish on tool, although I've had a weird feeling about them.

Look at this post. Look at it.

And actually this post is even worse if Tool and Skelda are buddies.

Darn it Tool. If you're scum I want to throw my computer out a window.

[zakk]

zakk suspects Elyse and Skelda.
Garmr suspects Elyse and Skelda.
Elyse suspects zakk and Garmr.
Skelda suspects zakk and Garmr.

So this makes it look like one of the two is the scumteam. Especially considering Garmr and zakk have townreads on each other.

Also, the fact that we have stated town reads on each other means we're both

much

more likely to be

town

, for the record.

[zakk]

I'm done posting.

Lynch Skelda. There's nothing left to be said.

[zakk]

Because scum are much less likely to have town reads on each other.

[zakk]

Personally I think all townies should unvote, and we should continue discussing.

I'm done posting.

Lynch Skelda. There's nothing left to be said.

Yeah I changed my mind. Scum are pushing this to be a fast endgame so unless they are gonna unvote (unlikely) then it's probably not going to be a nice slow endgame where we work out all the possibilities. I probably started that trend by voting Elyse early on, but now it's being carried on.

If I was scum, I WOULD HAVE quick-hammered Garmr. If he's town, I win. If he's scum, I get massive town cred.

The fact is though, I'm pretty much confirmed town now.

[zakk]

If you're town, and I pray you are, unvote and vote Skelda.

[zakk]

If you think it's Garmr and Skelda, PLEASE vote Skelda.

PLEASE. I'm begging you on my hands and knees.

[zakk]

And if you're scum with Skelda, then curse you for drawing this out.

Actually, that'd make a lot of sense because you could have voted Elyse earlier but told me to unvote because you wanted to wait for Skelda to be on at the same time... ahhh now my head is all jumbled up.

All I know is, Skelda > Elyse > tool > Garmr > me in order of my preferred lynches.
And for you: Garmr > Skelda > me > Elyse > tool in order of YOUR preferred lynches.

Let's compromise on Skelda.

[zakk]

I may have yours wrong, but the point is, Skelda is really high on both of our lists and I'm confirmed town and Garmr is really likely town and you're also more likely to be town than either of Skelda or Elyse. Meaning Skelda needs to die.

[zakk]

I find your paranoia on tool a little comforting, though probably misplaced

This comment really rocks my scum read of you, for the record.

All I know is I want Skelda dead and the fact that he wants me dead is a prime example of the survivalistic necessity of his play right now.

Notice I am not being defensive in the least. I don't have to. Because I know I'm town.

[zakk]

Oh and also, if Elyse was bad with me, why wouldn't Elyse have voted there and won?

You make a strong case there.

Elyse's comment AS WELL AS Elyse not quick-hammering Garmr, means Elyse is really likely town, despite my leanings earlier today.

Unless, as scum, Elyse is just jerking us around. Which ("pun" not intended) would be a jerk move.

[zakk]

I'm trying really hard to figure out how toolenduso is town at this point. Really questioning my earlier town read.

Could it be Skelda/tool? All things are pointing to that right now.

[zakk]

There is absolutely no tool/zakk otherwise we'd have hammered Garmr

There is absolutely no Skelda/Garmr otherwise Skelda would have never put Garmr at L-1

[zakk]

Possibilities are:

zakk/tool
zakk/skelda
zakk/elyse
zakk/garmr

skelda/tool
skelda/elyse
skelda/garmr

elyse/tool
elyse/garmr

tool/garmr

I can safely rule out the entire first group.
I can also rule out Skelda/Garmr due to the above, so that leaves me with:

skelda/tool
skelda/elyse
elyse/tool
elyse/garmr
tool/garmr

And regardless of my feelings on Garmr I'm leaving him in.

Now who else should I be eliminating and why?

[zakk]

Tool could have hammered zakk if he was bad, but he didn't. So tool could only be bad with zakk, butI believe his claim anyway.

Tool could still be bad with you.

[zakk]

How could Tool have hammered me? I don't see that. I see that you were voting me, then Tool voted Garmr, and you switched to Garmr.

[zakk]

Oh wait yeah, tool could have hammered me. Okay, tool is town.

[zakk]

Unvote

btw

[zakk]

Okay Tool is pretty much confirmed town right now because he didn't vote for me and unless he was just really not paying attention, I know he's not my scumbuddy so there's that.

Elyse is also likely to be town because she could have hammered Garmr adn didn't, unless she's scum with Garmr, which seems unlikely but that's something I'll be looking into shortly.

Have any of us thought about the possibility that there might only be 1 scum left? That seems ridiculous, but possibilities are rapidly deteriorating.

[zakk]

Darn it Garmr, I trusted you. If Garmr is scum, I throw EVERYTHING out the window. EVERYTHING.

[zakk]

Oh, Garmr, you're online. Great. Hi

[zakk]

I literally just deleted a post where I was voting you, because I want to talk to you about some stuff.

So... tell me why you're not scum right now please thanks?

[zakk]

Garmr, actually that is even more damning for you because it means that, if it is true, you couldn't be scum with Elyse or me which leaves only zakk and Garmr.

I'm not scum though, so try again.

Also, I still think you're scum.

[zakk]

Ok so Tool could have hammered me but didn't (1.5 hours at L-1)
Elyse could have hammered Garmr but didn't (don't remember how long)

[zakk]

Garmr, why wouldn't Elyse have hammered you, if Skelda was scum with Elyse?

[zakk]

I didn't hammer Garmr either, for that matter. I still have my doubts but I came very close to doing it.

[zakk]

If you're town and you just hammered yourself, I'm blacklisting you.

GG scum. bye

[zakk]

I'm biting my nails here WHO IS IT?!?!?!

[zakk]

Everyone's comments post-hammer make me think they're all town. This is ridiculous.

If Garmr is scum I am going to jump off a bridge. I am the ultimate ultimate of confused right now.

Still, this is exciting. haha

[zakk]

If it's Skelda/Tool I am gonna kill myself.

If it's Elyse/Garmr I am gonna kill myself.

If it's Elyse/Tool I am gonna get my head checked.

If it's Skelda/Garmr I am gonna get THEIR heads checked.

If it's me/anyone, I am gonna stop playing mafia forever because somehow I convinced myself that I was town.

[zakk]

Hahahaha I am gonna go look at my role PM. This is ridiculous.

[zakk]

Oops LOL guys I am scum.

[zakk]

WOOOOOOOOOOW

[zakk]

No, it's Skelda/somebody I'm sure. I'm town. Was just kidding.

[zakk]

If Garmr is town, then well played Skelda.

[zakk]

The long and short of it is: Skelda and one of Elyse/Garmr was scum, just like we figured out early on in the day.

So we should have just voted Skelda like I said. But NOOOOOO you wanted to lynch Garmr, tool.

Tool if you are scum I hate you.

[zakk]

Just got a pm from N his on his phone but he said my vote didn't count....

LOL

WHAT IS GOING ON

[zakk]

Vote: Skelda

Enough is enough! I have HAD IT with these muthatruckin snakes on this muthatruckin plane!!

[zakk]

One thing is for sure. I am definitely excited about mafia again. I was losing interest quickly when things started dragging on and on and onnnnn

But now, things have taken a turn for the better and I might join another game when this ends! Hooray

[zakk]

No. I'm town.

Does it look like Garmr's self-hammer was faked? N was pretty notoriously anal-retentive about votes being at the start of a line, earlier on in the game. I remember making a note of how much it annoyed me. So the only question was whether Garmr did it on purpose to spur on discussion.

[zakk]

Well, this is a mass of confusion.

Scum are zakk and Garmr, still. There is no other option. Garmr would have hammered zakk or zakk would have hammered Garmr if they weren't.

I'm town. Stop pushing that I'm scum. You're scum.

If you think it's me and Garmr, then vote me like a man and stop trying to play the crowd.

Let's go head to head. Me or you. That's it.

[zakk]

Everyone (please) vote Skelda! I'm town and I can prove it! (with my flip tonight after I'm killed)

[zakk]

I hate you all.

*shoots self in the face*

[zakk]

Well played, Elyse. I will never trust you again.

Sorry to Skelda. I really didn't trust you. I'm not sure why.

Garmr we should have just lynched on Day 1.

ABR never should have been lynched. That was wack.

I was all over the place the final day. I am not proud.

N, I didn't like your "Votes have to be at the start of the line" thing at all. If they can be understood as votes, they should be counted. As it was, it allowed scum to pull off a gambit that never would have otherwise happened. And for all we know, his vote might have been serious and he was just saved because of that accursed rule. Of course, he'd never admit to it, but then... who would?

For my part, Skelda had me convinced about Garmr-scum, and I had a post written in which I clicked "Submit" which had a Garmr hammer in it, but luckily for Garmr, my post review caught a new post from him, and after reading it, I decided not to hammer him right away and decided to talk to him instead. You can find that here. 1291 was originally 1290, and had a vote and a lot more talking about my Garmr hammer in it.

I so wish that would have happened now. Garmr saved himself, literally, by less than one minute.

All in all, this was very frustrating, and I'm not happy with my play at all.

Shout out to Axxle for calling Garmr scum in his first post of the game. I wanna play with you again.
Shout out to ABR for ridiculously good reads, and I'm sorry I wasn't around to defend you on Day 1.
Shout out to the mod for overall running a pretty smooth game, despite the dumb vote rule I dislike.
Shout out to Elyse for pulling things off at the end with a ridiculous amount of flair, despite the odds.

And Slandaar, please never play another game with me again either. I

can't

don't want to handle it.