Mini 1505: N is for Normal (game over)

[toolenduso]

This'll be quick because I'm at work right now, but I'll post a bit more when I get home.

IMO doesn't matter a whole lot whether we quicklynch Thor or not. So for now, in the interests of digging through what we have, I'll

UNVOTE: Thor665

That being said, Thor is a good scum player. But he's been backed into a situation where he has very few options for what he could do. So yeah, everything he's doing right now -- including trying to get people to take his "vow" -- is basically the only options he has left. The vow is pointless and designed to create suspicion between townies.

@zakk: Well, thanks for posting your thoughts on everyone. Unfortunately, looking at playstyle is far more suited to day 1 activity unless it's something very telling. We now have three confirmed townies and a vote record at our disposal to determine who is scum.

Also, it's a fallacy to think that just because somebody who died is confirmed town that they actually knew who the mafia was.

[Thor665]

That being said, Thor is a good scum player. But he's been backed into a situation where he has very few options for what he could do. So yeah, everything he's doing right now -- including trying to get people to take his "vow" -- is basically the only options he has left. The vow is pointless and designed to create suspicion between townies.

Tool, I'm in a corner regardless of my alignment - so noting I am in one is meaningless.
My vow is not meaningless because I'm attempting to get people to notice something and take a certain stance.

Consider this - if I flip scum...will anyone hold anyone else to my vow?
Now...what happens if I flip town?

Now, ask yourself about the people (like Bastion) who are seeking to avoid making the vow.

Then, after I am lynched, remember this.

Make sense?

[ICEninja]

I've never encountered a real hider before this game. Scum fake claim them because they're one of the only town PRs that can't be directly targeted for a night kill.

Obviously if scum claims cop then survives the night, that's suspicious.

I didn't know a hider died if he hid behind scum.

So fitz...do you actually have anything to contribute to this game?

[ICEninja]

And yes I said "if". It's looking pretty damn solid to get a scum flip on Thor but I don't know 100%.

[Slandaar]

^^^
Town.

Of course I'd already said that, but. y'know, nice to see.

Yes Yes I am town.

Ice and You are both scum.

Everybody knows now, it just took a PR to save them all.

[Thor665]

Just because you are right on 33% of your reads you shouldn't strain too hard.
That's called random chance.

[Sir Bastion]

Now, ask yourself about the people (like Bastion) who are seeking to avoid making the vow.

I'll nip this in the bud now cause I dont want this to become a thing when frankly it's none of anyone's business.

I dont make vows

period

it's a real world thing, I dont make vows big or small or of any minor laughable importance, you wont find me doing it in mafia scum and you'll certainly wont find me making one anywhere else. And yes you might have a thousand curious scenarios (what when I'm getting married?) and so on but the answer is the same I dont make vows.

personal tick you can try and take it as some sign any way in this game but the answer will not change

I DONT MAKE VOWS

What I can say is yes ICEninja is my top suspect

unlike falcon who had him oddly pegged as ABR's partner I had him down as my top suspect if ABR flipped town basedly purely on his shift to pushing elsewhere *after* ABR claimed his VT role. Though there is one seed of doubt which I will only touch on when we are actually waggoning him not before (something I am extending to only 2 players here).

But between you and him the difference is evidence, there is evidence that falcon intended to check you last night, there is evidence that he pegged his suspicion of ice to being ABR's partner. So despite coming into today suspecting Ice more then I did you, the results of the night say it all. You hang first.

As for the rest of my reads


Garmr is my other special exception who I am leaning town but will only say why on a day we are potentially waggoning him. Aside from that exception, he's excitable, confusing and very messy, so a quick question might clean up a lot of this: Is english your first language?

Elyse I have a townread on, we did appear to have the same approach to a lot of things on day 1. Though I did need to check how quickly she jumped on the hider result. But 10 minutes after the day started (and 6 minutes after the pm) and a quick meta shows she is normally on at that time says to me that it was all a genuine response. You cant blame me for being suspect, Macros was someone on day 1 I had suspicions on.

Slandaar does appear to be town, Despite being correct, I still dont agree with much of his day 1 work but with the exception of early day 1 I didnt find it scum motivated. As much as Slandaar might get offended by me calling a lot of his case Baggage, it does put him more likely town to drag in such baggage.

hazingfitz is pretty null at the moment

As is Skelda

Zakk was an odd sort of null leaning scum day 1, but day 2 is looking up purely from activity alone. I dont know if you'd like me to address your thoughts on me now or would you prefer to watch me a bit longer and put forward a case formally on day 3?

Toolendso has been *safe* which make me suspicious but not much more then just keeping an eye on his voting habits more then anything else.



Aside from that I dont think it's a 2 scum team game or a a game with a seriel killer, a hider does not seem to be a role suited to such games besides last nights results couldnt have come about by having 2 scum teams, if there were we would have 3 dead bodies right now instead of 2.

That leaves the obvious, the hider hid behind scum or the hider hid behind Maxous.

Since falcon made very clear where he was going to hide that only leaves one result.

as for *confirmed townies* there is none. I dont care how much someone fought with thor or defended albert, until you flip nobody is confirmed town in my book and anyone pushing such a notion right now is suspect in my books.

[ICEninja]

I might note that the points against me aren't particularly defensible (unless someone has something specific they want to address). I admit that I was not confident about ABR's wagon most of the time, though certain things made me more or less suspicious of it as it went on. I felt like my pushes elsewhere were warranted, especially with how quickly a decent amount of pressure built up on ABR after Thor's push.

Since I have some time before I'm really on the chopping block anyway I'll do my best to find scum in the mean time.

[Thor665]

@Bastion



What about promises? Do you make promises?
Contracts?
Agreements?

This really horrifies you, doesn't it?

[Sir Bastion]

@Bastion



What about promises? Do you make promises?
Contracts?
Agreements?

This really horrifies you, doesn't it?

nope to promises

contracts and agreements are negotiated

[Thor665]

What are you, like Ron Swanson here?
Please explain to me why you aren't willing to agree to a lynch that the only way it will matter is if I flip town?
Is it because you know?
Because that's what it look slike.

Unvote: Ice
Vote: Bastion

I'm still pretty sure on Ice - but I want people to remember this after my flip.

[Garmr]

@Sir bastion
English is my first language. But I missed allot of my schooling by jumping in and out hospital due to my epilepsy.

[Sir Bastion]

What are you, like Ron Swanson here?
Please explain to me why you aren't willing to agree to a lynch that the only way it will matter is if I flip town?
Is it because you know?
Because that's what it look slike.

Unvote: Ice
Vote: Bastion

I'm still pretty sure on Ice - but I want people to remember this after my flip.

Are you incapable of bloody reading

I am already fully and willing to lynch Ice, more so if you (shockingly) flip town

I have said that twice now

I said it before you even brought up this stupid vow notion:

Which for me right now

FOS: Iceninja

his wishy washy attitude post alberts claim struck me as suspicous enough to keep an eye on him

and I brought it up afterwards were I clearly stated that despite being someone who doesnt make vows

period

Ice is on the top of my list.

What I can say is yes ICEninja is my top suspect

So for the third bloody time

yes I will clearly vote to lynch Ice if you flip town, i'm just not holding my breath on you flipping as such

I will probably still vote to lynch ice if you flip scum, because I dont think the whole basis of scum Ice should be watered down to if falcon hid behind him or you which is a big part of why you are making such a show of wanting to have him hanged. Cause if we did let it get watered down to that then he gets an easy out when you flip scum.

I will regardless of both of those points never vow or promise to do so.

[Thor665]

I will probably still vote to lynch ice if you flip scum, because I dont think the whole basis of scum Ice should be watered down to if falcon hid behind him or you which is a big part of why you are making such a show of wanting to have him hanged. Cause if we did let it get watered down to that then he gets an easy out when you flip scum.

Serious?
Take away your buddy connection to ABR and what exactly have you got there?
Hint: He's not scumbuddies with ABR.

[ICEninja]

I honestly don't even know what to say to all this. I know a scum flip on Thor doesn't clear me by a long shot, but it seems to me like the only reason anyone suspects me (besides the F-16 thing pointing to me which will obviously be disproven upon Thor flipping scum) is that I was wishy-washy in wanting to lynch Albert yesterday. Which I honestly can't defend because I wasn't confident about his flip and made it clear that I wasn't.

Fitz and Skelda, get the fuck in here.

[Sir Bastion]

I honestly don't even know what to say to all this. I know a scum flip on Thor doesn't clear me by a long shot, but it seems to me like the only reason anyone suspects me (besides the F-16 thing pointing to me which will obviously be disproven upon Thor flipping scum) is that I was wishy-washy in wanting to lynch Albert yesterday. Which I honestly can't defend because I wasn't confident about his flip and made it clear that I wasn't.
.

Also you're first post of day 2

Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

Well damn. OK. That sucks.

Neither Maxous nor F-16 feels like a vig kill to me. Slandaar would have shot Thor if he was a vig, and anyone else probably would have shot Slandaar.

I'm not going to assume anything, but this feels like either a two-family mafia game or we've got a serial killer.

I'm now having serious doubts about Thor. I obviously can't trust ABR completely, as I still don't understand why he played the way he played, but he might have been on to something.

[ICEninja]

That was referring to ABR's flip, not the night kills. I suppose I should have been more clear about that.

I would also like to point out that since this post:

Alright, I'm finally reading this. I've been putting it off due to lacking motivation, but I'm going to now. Expect a logical post from me soonish.

He has posted 77 times in different threads.

[havingfitz]

I've never encountered a real hider before this game.

Ohh…so when you said this:

I've never encountered a hider before.

…you meant

REAL

hiders. I see. You realize until you know the hider is real or not it’s all the same.

It gets fake claimed a lot, so I typically lynch anyone who claims to be one.

“Typically” would imply you have lynched a hider more than once. I can’t find a single instance of you lynching a hider.

I didn't know a hider died if he hid behind scum.

Lynch all liars: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2279014

So fitz...do you actually have anything to contribute to this game?

See above.


Also…

I know a scum flip on Thor doesn't clear me by a long shot

Why would Thor being scum clear you?

Fitz and Skelda, get the fuck in here.

Here.

[Skelda]

I keep promising myself I'm going to finish reading this, and I keep not wanting to. And I thought I was going to be killed since that would give no info to the town, so I didn't read it during the night, unfortunately. From what I have read, though, extremely bad ABR lynch. I'm probably going to vote for someone on that. He is so easy to kill, and picking him off is scummy since he takes a bit to warm up. But, too little, everyone tell me who I should vote for and why.

[toolenduso]

Holy crap. ICE was saying he's never encountered a real hider, but has encountered people claiming to be hiders, so he's lynched them. He never said he lynched a real hider. Stop misunderstanding/misrepping him, fitz. There are other issues at hand.

[toolenduso]

Consider this - if I flip scum...will anyone hold anyone else to my vow?

No.

Now...what happens if I flip town?

Then ICEninja would be suspect regardless of people taking or not taking your vow -- that's why it doesn't matter whether anybody signs up for it or not.

But it does have an effect on the conversation right now. Assuming you're scum, I think you're using the vow in an attempt to create some conflict between townies, direct the conversation in a certain way and create some doubt about whether you are scum.

If you're town, it doesn't make much sense for you to try to get people to make a vow that will pretty much automatically get carried out upon you flipping town. You could point it out, make sure people know about and ask them to address it...

But asking people to actually vow that they would do it? That's controlling the conversation, and one of the last options you would have as scum.

That being said, I won't address it again unless I feel it's really necessary, because it is the least necessary thing to discuss right now.

[havingfitz]

Holy crap. ICE was saying he's never encountered a real hider, but has encountered people claiming to be hiders, so he's lynched them. He never said he lynched a real hider. Stop misunderstanding/misrepping him, fitz. There are other issues at hand.

1. I'm not misrepping shit.
2. What other issues at hand? Lynching Thor? That's a given Something else? Do tell.

[toolenduso]

What's more important is discussing who the other scum might be based on voting actions.
While I highly doubt that all three scum were on ABR's wagon, it's hard to collect any real evidence against any of the surviving people who weren't on the wagon -- most have very little posting history or voting record to go on.
Looking at the remaining people on the wagon, I'm going to point my finger at Garmr.
Garmr was the one who put ABR at L-2 (which was essentially a confirmed lynch since by that point F-16 had said he was going to vote for ABR too). This in itself is not necessarily scummy. But it took him a while to do it. He declared his intention to vote for Albert after being accused of not commenting on the situation (although he had, a little). But he said he wanted to "milk day 1" for what it was worth.

I'm on everyday and I already declared my intention to vote ABR latter. The reason I don't do it now is because I'm milking what I can out of the day. So his at a imaginary L-1 now.

Personally, I thought that sentiment was fine. The ABR wagon was confirmed to succeed at that point. But then Thor challenged it in this post:

So, just to work out this outline;

1. You are here everyday.
2. You have no questions or issues to present.
3. You want us to "milk" the remaining time because...you want to spend the time...not voting...so that time passes...

...which didn't really say anything at all. I mean, what was Thor's challenge to Garmr wanting to wait? Essentially what Thor was saying in the post was "I don't understand why you want to wait to vote for ABR."
Garmr responded with this:

I never thought of it that way.... I usually just stretch the day as long as I can then something unexpected happens out of no where that changes the game. I am guessing this doesn't happen every game by your tone?

...basically caving to nothing.
Then in this post...

Slandaar while I do agree with your case shouldn't we wait till the other players place say something. We have to get a response from TCold and havingfitz now. Then I think we should go for that lynch after everyone's spoken Thor's 100 percent getting lynched today so we can milk the week.

...he's back to supporting the idea of "milking" the time we have to further the conversation.
My guess is that Garmr, who's pretty much admitted that he hasn't done his best in this game, took a cue from his scumbuddy Thor, who is an experienced leader-type player, to hurry up and lynch ABR already.

To recap, here is what I think happened from scumGarmr's point of view:

1. He is pressed to comment on the ABR situation, giving him an excuse to hop on a bandwagon against town.
2. To avoid looking too eager, he posts a couple of times making a case for Albert, then says he is going to vote for him. He uses the "milking day 1" thing to avoid seeming eager as well.
3. He takes a cue from his more-experienced scumbuddy, Thor, to jump on in.
4. Having been given a reason to and having established a case, he does so.

Thoughts?

[Elyse]

Scumteam is Thor + {ICE, Garmr, Skelda, fitz} with an outside chance zakk.

I'd say ICE and Garmr. I sense some bussing going on.

[Skelda]

That was referring to ABR's flip, not the night kills. I suppose I should have been more clear about that.

I would also like to point out that since this post:

Alright, I'm finally reading this. I've been putting it off due to lacking motivation, but I'm going to now. Expect a logical post from me soonish.

He has posted 77 times in different threads.

I'm really sorry, I've just not felt like reading. I have no excuse. I haven't been lurking, exactly, I've just been ignoring the thread. I wish the scum had NKed me, I overclocked myself. Anyway, attempting a read through, will let you know.