Open 530 "WSoB" (Stack the Deck): GAME OVER

[EspeciallyTheLies]

HI <3 Setup looks awesome (haven't read a word of the thread yet) I will read as soon as I get home and post thoughts.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Also, forgot to UNVOTE: because I don't know wtf is going on yet

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Ok guys, caught up. (HI SAKI, SAKURA, TNE, DP/EAGLE <3)

I find Venrob's reaction to the self-vote EXACTLY what we should be looking for. It was a dirty, opportunistic jump on the first thing that could be called scummy.

Nevermind. Hiraki took the words out of my mouth.

Manipulation of scum tells.

Which reminds me, I agree with this 100%

However, you [Venrob] are trying to twist it, as any scum would, to make it look scummy

Ankamius did more with his first post than Sakura has done with her entire ISO (sorry, love, but it's not good). Not only that, but Sakura's whiteknighting of Venrob was like a flashing neon sign.

Top scum reads: Venrob and Sakura Hana

Ok reads list, here we go:

Alduskkel - null
Ankamius - town
Brian Skies - town
DoctorEagle - null (Post more honey bunches! There's two of you, no reason to not be posting more by now.)
EspeciallyTheLies - so town <3
Hiraki - town (I have to be honest and say the last game we played together left a very sour taste for you. However, the distinct difference in your play style here from your scum play in that game tells me you're probably town. Or I could be wrong and you could piss me off again. Time will tell but I'm liking what you've done so far.)
JacobSavage - null (Why no content?)
pieguyn - towntowntown
Sakura Hana - scum
thenewearth - null
Venrob - scum
Viera Assassin - null

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Eh.... was about to go all

Hey Mod!

but apparently I forgot.

VOTE: Venrob

Aldu, I'm concerned for you.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Aldu, since you have played with Venrob before, would you mind expanding on your town read of him? I don't think his reaction to the self vote was due to playstyle, since playstyle has nothing to do with the motivation behind one's actions.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Self-voting at L-1 is scummy. Self-voting in LYLO is scummy. Self-voting in RVS is a trap set for scum, and Venrob took the bait hook, line and sinker. Aldu, are you willing to look at this from all angles?

Also, I'd like to say, RVS != information. RVS is fucking horrible. It's the reactions to RVS that carry the gold. Using an RVS vote on someone else does not give more information than voting yourself. It gives the same exact amount, depending on who reacts to what in what way.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ETL, how do you know Venrob doesn't actually think self-voting is scummy? Also, Brian voted for Ankamius, too, do you think that was scummy?

When I first read the thread, yes. I did, at first. Except Brian wasn't trying to push a lynch based on something that was actually town-motivated as hell. I got the impression he wasn't paying too much attention until later.

Here's the thing that bugs me. There's few scum who bus hardcore D1 and actually seek to run their partner up to L-1 in the first 10 pages. Their first duty is to help their partner mislynch. While obvious defense of them is a stupid idea, Sakura never comes out and says if she thinks Venrob is town. In fact, when pressed for an overt stance, she plays games and tells people to run around the thread looking for hints. She attempts to validate Venrob's reasoning instead. Two different actions that have the same intended outcome, which is to diffuse the wagon on her partner. If she was town, she would be looking for Venrob and Ank's intentions and giving clear explanations of her reads (like pieguy, like me, like hiraki, etc).

An inability to explain the reasons behind one's actions is a huge scumtell, imo. It tells me they don't actually have reasons and need to fabricate them. Sakura's "explanations" comes off disingenuous and flippant.

P-edit: Sakura, there's a difference between bait and a scumslip.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Self-voting at L-1 is scummy.

Yeaaaah, about that

Guess that's why I'm a global scum read.

Self-voting as town, ESPECIALLY when it's to lynch yourself, is the dumbest fucking thing ever. It is against the spirit of the game, and a whiny thing to do. Not to even mention, against your wincon. You are showing me something YOU do, that MOST PEOPLE DON'T. What you're telling me with this post is that you are terrible as town. I don't know about others here, but that is horrible play. As town, it shouldn't matter if you get lynched or die, as long as you contribute as much as possible to the goal.

Regardless of all that, it doesn't even apply here!

Somebody asked me something I didn't answer and I thought I did but I don't know (I'm mobile-ish at the moment). Do I think Venrob genuinely thinks it was scummy to self-vote in RVS? I dunno but I think that'd be pretty stupid considering the obvious intention behind it. At least it was obvious to me. Which is why when Brian (or maybe it was someone else, but I think it was Brian) had a town-read on Ank on page 2, it didn't ping me as something like that normally would. I almost posted about that.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Something I always find suspicious is early town reads with no clear foundation. When I first read that post, I was like "whaa..." and made a note about it. After finishing the thread, and having had some time to think about the motivations behind several posts, I realized that you saw the same thing I did. Because your town read had a verifiable source, it isn't as scummy as it would be if you had no reason to call someone town based on the posts in the game to that point. Doing so would imply you have other knowledge. This is an open setup, so it's not like there are hidden PRs beyond whatever the mafia chose and whatever the town rolled in turn. Even then, the information one has to start the game is the same unless you are scum or the traitor, and the outcome there is the same as well.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Something I always find suspicious is early town reads with no clear foundation. When I first read that post, I was like "whaa..." and made a note about it. After finishing the thread, and having had some time to think about the motivations behind several posts, I realized that you saw the same thing I did.

Because your town read had a verifiable source, it isn't as scummy as it would be if you had no reason to call someone town based on the posts in the game to that point.

Doing so would imply you have other knowledge. This is an open setup, so it's not like there are hidden PRs beyond whatever the mafia chose and whatever the town rolled in turn. Even then, the information one has to start the game is the same unless you are scum or the traitor, and the outcome there is the same as well.

The bold part is interesting to me and it gives me a townread on you (although I can neither affirm nor deny that we saw the same things, I do have confidence in it). Can you explain the underlined part?

At that point, I could see a reason why you thought Ank was town, so your read made sense. I could point to a post and say, "That's why Brian thinks Ank is town". If you came out with a town read that I couldn't go back in the thread and figure out why, then I'd wonder why you thought so. Notably, scum have the most town reads early game, in an effort to gain town cred by either buddying town or by later being able to say "See? I told you we shouldn't have lynched that person." It's rather transparent, but the tell holds true. Someone with an unjustified town read generally has some other reason to say they think the person is town - because they know who the townies are.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

you're just trying to make up answers to avoid suspicion.

Bingo.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Yes, you did fuck up. You scum-slipped. You fluffed your way through day 1 and attempted a chainsaw defense for Venrob by pointing at Ank. Your posts come off disingenuous and fabricated. You are unable to back up your "reads" with evidence and cannot explain yourself. You see the wagon turning on you and attempt to use AtE to defend yourself.

Where is the town motivation in any of this?

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[EspeciallyTheLies]

A self-vote means that you're voting for the only person you know is confirmed town (if you're town) hence holds no info,

HEY DP!! <3

This is one of the slips I was referring to. By her logic, the only reason self-voting is scummy, and therefore voteworthy, is because the person voting themself is town and voting the only person they know to be town. But why would you vote for someone you thought was town just doing something scummy?

Also, I thought I had voted Venrob with my first post and realized after the VC was posted that I hadn't.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

------ Scum
Venrob

pieguyn

Viera Assassin

This is curious to me, Jacob. I am personally reading him as town.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Received prod cuz I'm a horrible person. It was my fiance's birthday on Friday so we spent the weekend going out and stuff. Anyway I'm back now and not mobile so I'll catch up and post more thoughts tonight after work.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Ok, so, I'm mostly caught up, I've just been stupid busy >< (I'm sorry :[ )

I still feel icky about Venrob, but the claim gives me pause. For today. If he's alive tomorrow, I'll have some questions for sure.

I still want to lynch Sakura, though I'm rather curious why Jacob decided to dodge my question about how my top town read is in his scum list (pieguy). Though, he's in Hiraki's too and I'm sure enough that Hiraki is town. I'd like to hear what they have to say about that.

@JS: Can you please explain why pieguy is in your scum list? (Hiraki, please wait until he answers before giving your own.)

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I am a goon cop

Um... Is this possible?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I need to know why "pieguy is scum". There are now at least 4 people I can think of off the top of my head who are scum reading him and yet I can't find a single case or even a reason.... Now, all of them cant be scum so can someone please put some effort into it? I have iso'd pieguy and I dont know what I'm missing..

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Jacob is one of them. And I am rather irritated I've asked him at least twice now for an explanation of his reads and he has not given them.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

pieguy, I voted Sakura due to the way she was defending Venrob. I still think she's probably scum but to be honest, I haven't looked at her for a while. I've been so busy; I need to do more ISOs. I'm having a hard time reading many of the people in this game cuz really, I don't know most of you. However, JS is just making my skin crawl because he says he explained his reads, but I don't see it in his ISO, and I've asked him why you're in his scumlist, still with no response. I would like to see the VC before I vote, but that's where it will go.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Mkay. Pieguy, I was just talking to you particularly.

VOTE: JacobSavage

[EspeciallyTheLies]

WTF....

UNVOTE:

[EspeciallyTheLies]

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Then why aren't you dead Jacob?

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Where is there a strongman???

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Well doesnt thay assume they took the JOAT? But we have only two prs? I dont understand. I'm gonna go read wiki and stuff and be back. I'm mobile rifht now and at work anyway. Later tonight.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

It's like you aren't even reading the thread.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I believe the post up there was made by eagle. DP isn't that careless, as either alignment.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

.... not once, but twice.

Brain might be scum too. I need to ISO Brain/TNE.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Hi, prod received. I'm sorry - I've been rather ill the past day or so. I'm reading what I missed now and will give an updated reads list momentarily.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I dont understand what info we gain from no lynch if we find scum???

[EspeciallyTheLies]

NL on

N3

.

Concerned with doing things at night... ? Most mistakes are not alignment indicative. However, some mistakes, like this one, are scumslips.

ISOing Hiraki; be back shortly.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

I agree DE. My townread on Hiraki still stands after the ISO for other reasons. To be honest, I need to look at some of what aldu has said about him cuz I'm dense.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Oops... I forgot about this game. My bad. I forgot everything. I'm gonna reread and post again before the end of the night with updated reads.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Wait what jacob..

[EspeciallyTheLies]

No. I've been too busy to do anything useful. I missed wherever you asked me that. But two or three makes no difference. A partner is still a partner whether you are referring to one or the other. Its not like you can run more than one person up to L-1 singlehandedly.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Which reminds me

V/LA until Saturday. Too busy with work.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Hi I'm back, catching up now.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Damn DE was the traitor... lol good job you guys

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Go ahead and post the mafia QT