NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[mastin2]

One-Hundred-Seventy-First Votecount

:

(Ninth Votecount of Day Seven,

AKA, the "Apologies for the massive delay" votecount.

)

Nachomamma8 - 1 (Bulbazak)

penguin_alien - 1 (Nachomamma8)

Bulbazak - 1 (penguin_alien)

Not Voting - 3 (PeregrineV, ffullisade, MS Marangal)

With

6

alive, it's

4

to lynch.

Day Seven's deadline is Monday, September 30th, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-09-30 12:30:00).

Spoiler: Changes from last votecount

Nachomamma8 - 1 (Bulbazak)
penguin_alien - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Bulbazak - 1 (penguin_alien)

Not Voting - 3 (PeregrineV, ffullisade, MS Marangal)

Last votecount was page 247, post 6155.

Spoiler: Player Vote History D7

Nachomamma8: Amethyst Kitty->penguin_alien
PeregrineV:
Bulbazak: Nachomamma8
penguin_alien: Bulbazak
MS Marangal: Nachomamma8->Unvote
ffullisade: Amethyst Kitty->Unvote->Amethyst Kitty->Unvote->Nachomamma8->Unvote

Spoiler: Vote History D7

On Mon, Sep 9/09/13 @ 10:43p,

ffullisade

Votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 5996.
On Wed, Sep 9/11/13 @ 00:24a,

ffullisade

Unvotes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 6005.
On Wed, Sep 9/11/13 @ 03:27p,

Nachomamma8

votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 6025.
On Mon, Sep 9/16/13 @ 02:24p,

ffullisade

Votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 6042.
On Tue, Sep 9/17/13 @ 00:18a,

ffullisade

unvotes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 6068.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 02:22a,

Nachomamma8

votes

penguin_alien

in post 6091.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 10:11a,

ffullisade

votes

Nachomamma8

in post 6093.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 05:41p,

ffullisade

unvotes

Nachomamma8

in post 6105.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 08:06p,

MS Marangal

Votes

Nachomamma8

in post 6120.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 08:10p,

Bulbazak

votes

Nachomamma8

in post 6122.
On Wed, Sep 9/18/13 @ 08:17p,

penguin_alien

Votes

Bulbazak

in post 6123.
On Thu, Sep 9/19/13 @ 11:37p,

MS Marangal

Unvotes

Nachomamma8

in post 6153.

[Bulbazak]

we never unvoted?

and I think Nacho is red scum with bulb, or did

I think he's bussing Nacho, explains why he's voting him over me when he apparently has a stronger read on me

What do you think of the uneven scumteams theory?

Plausible I guess, but Paranoia say it you using this theory to hide the fact that you "scum-slipped" earlier when you speculated scum-teams numbers though...

Quote please, because I don't remember this.

Bulb, if you don't care who gets lynched then why won't you attack me? our slot has been far more easier to push a wagon on, there is alot less resistance on the push for our wagon compared to Nacho wagon, and overall the performance of our slot, and my own personal performance hasn't been the best. There are alot of things that are easier to push us on compared to nacho

I think both you and Nacho are red scum, which means I don't care which of you 2 are lynched today, as long as one of you are. When I was finishing my reads, I noticed that you had placed a vote on Nacho, so I voted there as well. Otherwise, I would have been conferring with Ffullisade and PV, my 2 townreads, on which of you 2 we should be voting. Since then, though, Nacho has tipped his hand quite a bit, so I'd really like for him to eat rope.

Also, what's with this "our slot has been easier to lynch" crap? This is not the first time you've said something like that to me. It's like you're trying to paint my suspicion of your slot as opportunism.

furthermore on your little paragraph about me, alot of those posts are still not my actions, but the Mala's (except maybe for the replace out I guess?) and I don't think that my level of AtE wasn't that high, or out of bounds this game, but even if it was it isn't scummy, and even if I was spewing AtE like there was no tomorrow, why are you using it as a means to scum-read me? You've seen me get overly emotional as town, You've seen me get accused of AtE as town, hell you've seen me give up because my reads weren't as good as I had wanted them to be even though we were ahead. You've seen how irrational I get emotion wise so why are you even trying to push that angle?

Again, I don't really care which of you said what in the long run, as it's still the same slot. I've played with you once before, and to be honest, your play that game really didn't stand out. If you did any sort of AtE, it wasn't memorable, whereas here, you've been AtEing all over the place, and I really don't think it's the town kind either.

as for the buddying, You've also seen me hard defend people I have as town regardless of how much backing I have to those reads. You've seen me hard defend my town reads, that is what I have been doing this game

I don't recall you saying "I don't like any of the lynches today, not even the one on that person I've stated is scum throughout the game.".

Sweetie, Have you seen how I have treated my partners as scum? yes, I have buddied my partners as scum before, I have hard-core defended them, but it hasn't happened often and if I am going to decide to even do that, I will have them move to a town-read before hand. There is a reason to why my scum-buddies aren't found via association to me, but rather associations of my other partners should there ever be other flips. It's because I do extremely well at masking associative, as well as making fake ones that it's hard to even use that angle against me. If I was going to hard defend seanald, I wouldn't have soft-bussed him before that

Yeah, this is crap. You made a boo boo and got caught. Deal with it.

are mutually exclusive, bulbazak

That's not what you said, and it DEFINITELY was not what you were implying.

Really?

Yes, really.

One of PA/Bulba is blue. And Peregine is town.

I don't think Peregrine is town.

Or I think there's uneven scumteams.

in fact i really think there are uneven scumteams.

Peregrine is scum, or there are uneven scumteams. I REALLY think there are uneven scumteams.

"Also, look at how indecisive I'm being. It's like I'm making things up spur of the moment, even though I've stated I've had time to think about this. I mean surely I would have brought this up the first time and not tried to keep the PV option open and then suddenly changed my mind."

Peregrine would be not-town if there aren't uneven scumteams simply because Mara's became strong town for the last bit and mollie has been consistently town the entire game.

If there are uneven scumteams (two scum left), Peregrine is town. If there aren't uneven scumteams (three scum left), Peregrine is scum.

I'm sorry. It's just that the double negative confused me and made me think you were keeping PV-scum open as a possibility. I mean, it's not like there was a simpler way of saying it, instead of delving into double talk.

You see, I don't think you made a mistake. I don't think "not mutually exclusive" was a simple typo. I think it was just another form of double talk, like the double negatives, whose only purpose was to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town unconscious. I mean, you could have said "If even scumteams, PV is scum. If uneven scumteams, PV is town." to Ffullisade's question, and it would have answered their question and have been straightforward, and no one would have been able to doubt your meaning. Instead, you say "Peregrine would be not-town if there aren't uneven scumteams". Sure, that means "PV is scum if even scumteams.", but you have to read really hard to get that. Instead, what you unconsciously get is "PV is scum.". It leaves that opportunity open, while you can later say "I did not say that!".

And here's another thing, even then, this whole "PV scum if..." theory does not work. There's no way PV would be scum with even scumteams BECAUSE that would be saying that the scumteams, although even, ARE NOT symmetrical, which is the entire concept that allowed us to catch CTD in the first place. In fact, the only way PV COULD be scum was IF the scumteams were NOT even, but even then you run into problems, as you then have to explain why giving blue an extra neighborhood and a vig with their ninja balances out a team full of PRs. Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that PV is NOT scum, and I find the very process of trying to keep him open as a suspect very scummy.

Looking over VCs, Nacho has to be frustrated Red scum. And right now thinking rolecop, since his CTD read went from town to "stale" to surprise massive scum-case.

There is no way there are 2 copies of any PR in this game. Again, symmetry and balance.

[Nachomamma8]

You see, I don't think you made a mistake. I don't think "not mutually exclusive" was a simple typo.

despite the fact that everything i've been saying in thread says different.
interesting.

I think it was just another form of double talk, like the double negatives, whose only purpose was to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town unconscious.

so you think i used "not-town" instead of "scum" in order to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town conscious?
what the fuck does this even mean?

ARE NOT symmetrical, which is the entire concept that allowed us to catch CTD in the first place.

We also could have gotten completely lucky, believe it or not.

[Nachomamma8]

ffull, please comment on my argument with bulbazak please and thank you.

[ffullisade]

ffull, please comment on my argument with bulbazak please and thank you.

bulba is scum. He has to push this kind of thing. He may even believe it because he's not in that much better a position to find other-scum if he's on his own.

I'd rather talk about your two posts that he's making all the noise about.

Putting AK in my town pile forced me to remove someone else, and my inviolate town read is pere because of the neighborhood symmetry argument. I was reluctant about it, but if there are two red scum and AK isn't one of them then you have to be.

If there are two red scum.

What if there aren't? What if it's 4-3?

For whatever reason, you started with a different inviolate town read - me. And you went through the same process: That means pere has to be the 2nd red scum given your inviolate read.

If there are two red scum.

I saw it. I saw you go through the same goddamn thought process

Spoiler: stop reading my mind

It's painfully embarrassing to have been wrong for so much of the game, but it is what it is.

My understanding of the game state was irreparably broken last night, but I came away with 2 things I still feel sure of. One of PA/Bulba is blue. And Peregine is town.

So, instead of trying to figure out which of PA/bulba/you are red, I'm left with you and AK. And if that was scum-mara that raged back at Mollie to the point where she didn't even realize she was attributing a post that was obviously mine to Mollie, I'm never going to be able to read her and I should just give up and policy-vote her from now on because what else can you do with someone that unreadable?

I don't think Peregrine is town.

Or I think there's uneven scumteams.

in fact i really think there are uneven scumteams.

Stop it.

Stop reading my mind.

You basically caught CTD and convinced me you were right with a symmetry argument.

Why do you think Peregrine is not town? And why do you think I am town?

If the red/blue balance is not in numbers, what does make it balanced and where is the evidence for that?

I will fear your scum game forever if you divined a thought process which I didn't telegraph, and echoed it back to me like that.

[Ms Marangal]

Bulb, if you don't care who gets lynched then why won't you attack me? our slot has been far more easier to push a wagon on, there is alot less resistance on the push for our wagon compared to Nacho wagon, and overall the performance of our slot, and my own personal performance hasn't been the best. There are alot of things that are easier to push us on compared to nacho

I think both you and Nacho are red scum, which means I don't care which of you 2 are lynched today, as long as one of you are. When I was finishing my reads, I noticed that you had placed a vote on Nacho, so I voted there as well. Otherwise, I would have been conferring with Ffullisade and PV, my 2 townreads, on which of you 2 we should be voting. Since then, though, Nacho has tipped his hand quite a bit, so I'd really like for him to eat rope.

Also, what's with this "our slot has been easier to lynch" crap? This is not the first time you've said something like that to me. It's like you're trying to paint my suspicion of your slot as opportunism.

furthermore on your little paragraph about me, alot of those posts are still not my actions, but the Mala's (except maybe for the replace out I guess?) and I don't think that my level of AtE wasn't that high, or out of bounds this game, but even if it was it isn't scummy, and even if I was spewing AtE like there was no tomorrow, why are you using it as a means to scum-read me? You've seen me get overly emotional as town, You've seen me get accused of AtE as town, hell you've seen me give up because my reads weren't as good as I had wanted them to be even though we were ahead. You've seen how irrational I get emotion wise so why are you even trying to push that angle?

Again, I don't really care which of you said what in the long run, as it's still the same slot. I've played with you once before, and to be honest, your play that game really didn't stand out. If you did any sort of AtE, it wasn't memorable, whereas here, you've been AtEing all over the place, and I really don't think it's the town kind either.

as for the buddying, You've also seen me hard defend people I have as town regardless of how much backing I have to those reads. You've seen me hard defend my town reads, that is what I have been doing this game

I don't recall you saying "I don't like any of the lynches today, not even the one on that person I've stated is scum throughout the game.".

Sweetie, Have you seen how I have treated my partners as scum? yes, I have buddied my partners as scum before, I have hard-core defended them, but it hasn't happened often and if I am going to decide to even do that, I will have them move to a town-read before hand. There is a reason to why my scum-buddies aren't found via association to me, but rather associations of my other partners should there ever be other flips. It's because I do extremely well at masking associative, as well as making fake ones that it's hard to even use that angle against me. If I was going to hard defend seanald, I wouldn't have soft-bussed him before that

Yeah, this is crap. You made a boo boo and got caught. Deal with it.

No, I was challenging you to vote me. Nacho had accumulated one vote, I accumulated two at the point you decided to vote Nacho. My wagon was far more likely to go through in comparison's to Nacho yet you vote me over Nacho

how am I painting your suspicions on me as opportunism when I am challenging you to wagon me, and when I am "scum". It's only opportunistic if I am town so, in your mind, that thought shouldn't even be a thing

and yes, it does matter. If you are going to call me, the person, out for AtE you better back that up with actual post that were made by me. we are one slot, but you continue to say I am doing actions I didn't do.

and I didn't say "I don't like any of the lynches today" today, but that isn't what that post is saying. What it is saying I have defended people hardcore through the game, not just this day phase, this game

and for the last part, it isn't. You're calling me out as scum mostly for associatives, and quite frankly shitty ones at that. I'm pretty offended by the fact that any one could think that I could be so easily caught by something like that Especially with the thing I am most proud of doing as scum is being able to make false-associatives as scum, and making non-associatives with my buddies.

[Ms Marangal]

My wagon was far more likely to go through in comparison's to Nacho yet you vote me over Nacho

Nacho over me

[Ms Marangal]

Which of these reads takes priority for you, Nacho? Or are they not mutually exclusive?

ThAd read takes priority; doesn't make sense for redscum to have two killstoppers or for bluescum to have two roleblockers, so if we kill bluescum and there's no roleblockers, then ThAd dies instantly. The reads aren't necessarily mutually exclusive: if PV flips redscum, I'll be extremely suspicious of ThAd. If PV flips bluescum then I'd rather sort out the other blue before sorting Thad, if that makes sense.

this was stated when there were two blue flips

[Ms Marangal]

VOTE: Bulb

I think I'm ready for this

[Nachomamma8]

bulba is scum. He has to push this kind of thing. He may even believe it because he's not in that much better a position to find other-scum if he's on his own.

I don't think he believes it.

I will fear your scum game forever if you divined a thought process which I didn't telegraph, and echoed it back to me like that.

I dream of one day having a scumgame that good.

[Nachomamma8]

Where did penguin go?

[penguin_alien]

Where did penguin go?

IRL responsibilities + no inclination to change my vote = lack of time to delve into anything in this game over the weekend

Looking over VCs, Nacho has to be frustrated Red scum. And right now thinking rolecop, since his CTD read went from town to "stale" to surprise massive scum-case.

Anyone want to tackle an evolving Nacho-CTD tow-to-scumread?

And Mastin has way too much VC info for it not to be used. Looking at some of the early wagons and voting should bring up more info.

Any follow-up on this?

And in response to someone who said I was roleblocker-fishing, ffullisade I think, um, duh? Rena and ThAd reports indicate there's a scum roleblocker. If we know who it is, we know a scum. I was kind of hoping that all the stuff I was spewing about it early in the day might net something. I don't think it did.

Who do you have as town? Who do you have as blue?

You're town. If it's not a four-man red scum team with three PRs (namely with a roleblocker plus flipped PRs) then PV's clear. I'm a bit thrown by the lack of engagement from AK when it was a hydra on the topic of the NK's allegedly framing them, and I think AK-Ms Marangal's my first choice for blue scum, followed by Nacho. Nacho could be red scum, but I'm not seeing how the speculation on red scum team composition benefits him much.

[Ms Marangal]

I won't be around for two days, don't poke me!

<<< Got it. >>>

[ffullisade]

You're town. If it's not a four-man red scum team with three PRs (namely with a roleblocker plus flipped PRs) then PV's clear. I'm a bit thrown by the lack of engagement from AK when it was a hydra on the topic of the NK's allegedly framing them, and I think AK-Ms Marangal's my first choice for blue scum, followed by Nacho. Nacho could be red scum, but I'm not seeing how the speculation on red scum team composition benefits him much.

This is surprisingly noncommital

[Bulbazak]

I think it was just another form of double talk, like the double negatives, whose only purpose was to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town unconscious.

so you think i used "not-town" instead of "scum" in order to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town conscious?
what the fuck does this even mean?

You created a sentence that relied on double negatives. You purposely obfuscated what you said so that the literal meaning was one thing, while the subliminal meaning, the one that the brain got when not reading closely, was another. If someone, like myself, said that you were keeping your options open, you could point at the sentence and say, "No, I'm not. Read closely.", after which, it would take several minutes of close reading for their brain to make sense of that sentence. If you meant to say that PV was scum only in the event of even scumteams, you could have said that directly, but you chose not to, choosing instead to say it in a way that obscured your actual meaning. Town has no need of that sort of double talk. Scum do.

ARE NOT symmetrical, which is the entire concept that allowed us to catch CTD in the first place.

We also could have gotten completely lucky, believe it or not.

Yeah, you're definitely scum. There's no way you're that stupid.

Ffery, Nacho has essentially claimed scum, and you're ignoring it! You say that you think he's probably scum, but I'm not seeing that reflected in anything you do. You're just giving lip service to it, while trying to figure out how to not vote him and call him town. Where's that paranoia that you like to talk about? Your subtext hints that you're nervous about PV, who is conf. town, but yet you are also subtly moving Nacho into the town pile for no reason at all (Because he read your mind and it might be uneven scumteams? Seriously?! I could have come up with that as scum.). What gives?

No, I was challenging you to vote me. Nacho had accumulated one vote, I accumulated two at the point you decided to vote Nacho. My wagon was far more likely to go through in comparison's to Nacho yet you vote me over Nacho

At the time I voted for Nacho, there were no votes on you. Everybody that had been on your wagon unvoted. Trust me, if your wagon would have had more momentum at the time, I would have voted you.

how am I painting your suspicions on me as opportunism when I am challenging you to wagon me, and when I am "scum". It's only opportunistic if I am town so, in your mind, that thought shouldn't even be a thing

No, scum can claim that a vote is opportunistic as well. In fact, it's a good way to push a mislynch. My problem with your posts are that they are a form of entrapment. You keep saying, "Oh, I'm so scummy. I'm a better lynch. Why aren't you voting me.", waiting for me to take advantage of your baiting. If I don't, then you call me scum for some bull crap reasoning that doesn't make sense, and if I do, then you call me scum for being opportunistic. It's a loaded question/situation. And after I call you out on it, what do you do? Oh, that's right, you call me scum, try to push my lynch on bull crap reasoning, and vote me. Right on schedule.

and yes, it does matter. If you are going to call me, the person, out for AtE you better back that up with actual post that were made by me. we are one slot, but you continue to say I am doing actions I didn't do.

Yeah, this attack is idiotic as well, and it ties back into the previous point. In the end, I don't care which head of the hydra said what. You are the same slot, and your actions as a whole have led to my scumread on you. Neither you or Mala were people that I could expertly read enough to tell you apart, so in the end, I just didn't care. And as for AtE, you're doing it right now.

and I didn't say "I don't like any of the lynches today" today, but that isn't what that post is saying. What it is saying I have defended people hardcore through the game, not just this day phase, this game

You started being noncommital on lynches d3 (including the lynch on one of your own "scumreads"), and you stayed that way until yesterday. The whole attack on using the word "today" in such a sense is beyond bad.

and for the last part, it isn't. You're calling me out as scum mostly for associatives, and quite frankly shitty ones at that. I'm pretty offended by the fact that any one could think that I could be so easily caught by something like that Especially with the thing I am most proud of doing as scum is being able to make false-associatives as scum, and making non-associatives with my buddies.

Hey, we all have bad games. The only reason we caught CTD was because of game spec

that he suggested

. I think you made some boo boos and got caught. You saying otherwise is WIFOM.

If it's not a four-man red scum team with three PRs (namely with a roleblocker plus flipped PRs) then PV's clear.

How did you get a 4 man red team with 3 PRs? Heck, how did you get red having a roleblocker in an even scumteam situation?

[Bulbazak]

Request prod of PeregrineV.

[mastin2]

Request prod of PeregrineV.

Hmm, my mistake, I forgot to remind him to post after his V/LA ended. He IS coming off of V/LA, so poke (not prod) sent.

[PeregrineV]

Poke received. I'll read up on everything today.

[Ms Marangal]

And as for AtE, you're doing it right now.

ok, how?

[Ms Marangal]

what emotion am I appealing to?

[Ms Marangal]

You saying otherwise is WIFOM.

Jiffy said the exact same thing to Tammy in the game that just ended!

[Bulbazak]

And as for AtE, you're doing it right now.

ok, how?

The whole attack about me not being able to tell you apart is along the same lines as you shouting "I'm being framed!". The argument relies less on actual content and more on emotion, in this case, frustration.

[penguin_alien]

How did you get a 4 man red team with 3 PRs? Heck, how did you get red having a roleblocker in an even scumteam situation?

The claimed events from ThAd and Rena indicate to me that there is a scum roleblocker who cannot be blue, so he must be red. The chain of logic starts from figuring that the roleblocker has to be red, then considering team composition rather than considering team composition and then trying to place the roleblocker, if I'm explaining that coherently.

I'm leaning toward uneven in number teams, but if there are four red scum to match the likely four blue scum, the only way I see to weaken that would be to put another red scum in a neighborhood where he's vulnerable to lynching/being caught out by his neighbor. Unless the last blue scum has a completely kick-ass PR, then there could be four red scum with only Seanald in the neighborhood. But I can't think of a PR that's good enough to join with Ninja to complement Doctor-Tracker-Roleblocker.

So my theories from likeliest to least are three red scum--all PRs--one neighbor, four red scum--three PRs--two neighbors, four red scum--three PRs--one neighbor--blue scum has Ninja + kickass PR.

[ffullisade]

I'm leaning toward uneven in number teams, but if there are four red scum to match the likely four blue scum, the only way I see to weaken that would be to put another red scum in a neighborhood where he's vulnerable to lynching/being caught out by his neighbor. Unless the last blue scum has a completely kick-ass PR, then there could be four red scum with only Seanald in the neighborhood. But I can't think of a PR that's good enough to join with Ninja to complement Doctor-Tracker-Roleblocker.

The balance problem this introduces is huge. A scum player in a neighborhood with the vig is way overpowered compared to the other neighborhoods. The scum player can learn what the vig plans and use that to counter or let them go through depending on target. AND the scum player can potentially influence the vig's targets. When that works, it basically gives the scum team a second factional kill. How well such a setup would be used by scum is dependent on the skill of that player, and could be hugely swingy from a design standpoint.

[ffullisade]

I think I want to lynch bulba today.