Newbie 320 - Berry Village Mafia V (Game Over!)

[GreenLiquid]

/confirm

[GreenLiquid]

Any votes during the random vote stage shouldn't appear as true attacks. They are merely used to jump-start the game and gather reactions. If you do get two random votes, it is not something to worry about: remember, they are baseless, and there most likely isn't any argument against you at that point.

The way remussaidow responds to CES' pre-game comment strikes me as very scummy. Reacting in that way is a pretty strong tell. In addition, it looks more so scummy when he begins 'attacking' other players (I use this term loosely, but you can see that he does say things towards some others). I'm not entirely sure he's scum at this point, but it's the best lead I can find:

Vote: remussaidow

[GreenLiquid]

Green> I'm not sure Remu's actions are a tell. I jumped on CES for being defensive, yet it's been brought up by a few of you that everyone is going to be defensive. I think Remu's behavior is more in line with the "First vote is a joke vote" and that fits with the lighthearted accusations that were being thrown out before the game even started.

One of the things that has to be known about defensiveness is that scum are usually more defensive than town. In his case, it's very suspect as it's pretty clear that CES' actions were done jokingly. Also, why do you find CES defensive? He said that he wouldn't mind having pressure votes, which doesn't seem defensive to me. Can you cite the exact spot(s) that appeared defensive?

The actions are tells for several reasons:

1) He acted very defensively to accusations that were obviously intended as a joke.
2) He started attacking other people in his post. This isn't so much a tactic as it is an effort to get heat off of himself. Sort of a subconscious thing. Tells are different than tactics as they are usually not intentional.

[GreenLiquid]

Any votes during the random vote stage shouldn't appear as true attacks. They are merely used to jump-start the game and gather reactions. If you do get two random votes, it is not something to worry about: remember, they are baseless, and there most likely isn't any argument against you at that point.

The way remussaidow responds to CES' pre-game comment strikes me as very scummy. Reacting in that way is a pretty strong tell. In addition, it looks more so scummy when he begins 'attacking' other players (I use this term loosely, but you can see that he does say things towards some others). I'm not entirely sure he's scum at this point, but it's the best lead I can find:

Vote: remussaidow

Green Liquid, your post is a contradiction in and of itself. You point out that the random voting stage has no meaning, yet you vote me for a vote placed during this stage in the game.

The point though, Peter, to me sitting on information, as you put it (which I still don't think that I did) is to give everyone time to form their own opinions. It is a very bad idea to run along behind an analyst and use his posts as the basis for your votes. I did this in newbie 300, behind SV, and he ended up being scum. I say this right now so that everyone here will formulate his or her own opinions on the game.

For now I will

unvote

because I am reasonably sure that CES is town at this point. I also am reasonably sure the Peter is town. Green Liquid I am rather concerned about because of the contradiction that I pointed out in my openening quote. Eldarion, my comments were neither vague nor grandoise. The information I was using to base my conclusions on is written plainly in the thread. Nocmen, I didn't flip out, I am perfectly calm.

To all of you, think about it. I responded to CES's joke with a... Joke. However everyone says that his was obviously a joke, and that mine is obviously a scum tell. That really makes no sense.

I can't comment on Caddock because as of yet I have not seen him post in thread.

This is craplogic. Look at CES' vote. Did it come with a logical argument of any type whatsoever? Now look at mine. I clearly explained what about your post I didn't like, provided reasoning, and posted again when it was unclear. That is

not

random by any means.

Your post is clearly not a joke either. You voted CES for the pre-game vote, but not in a joking way, then went on to attack other players for various things you saw.

I'm being attacked, and you're expecting me not to be defensive. I never switch votes quickly. Ever. Show me where I switched votes quickly. I voted for...

You don't have to quickly switch your vote to be defensive. Defensiveness is similar to paranoia about arguments. That post

reeks

of defensiveness.

CES You were the third vote on Remu. About 50 minutes passed, than you retracted your vote. From what I can tell from your retraction post, you might not have realized you were the third vote, and are not ready to lynch. You are asking us to really put faith in you, and I don't like such blatent mistakes from a veteran player as yourself.

I also noticed this. It's not much, but I could see it as two things:

1) CES, being pro-town, accidentally places the third vote. The new vote count is posted, he realizes the error and unvotes.
2) CES, being scum, intentionally places the third vote in hopes that a player not paying attention to the number of votes will accidentally hammer. When the vote count is posted, he thinks it would be to obvious and unvotes.
3) CES, being scum, gives his partner 50mins to hammer. I don't think this is likely, as it would put a huge target on his partner's back the next day, and a huge target on his own the day after that.

I don't think it's significant, but still is deserving of a small

FOS: CES

.

[GreenLiquid]

I suspect that if CES is scum, the move was intended to get an unaware or confused townie to hammer, not his partner. I still think there's a stronger argument against remussaidow at present.

[GreenLiquid]

This game is really showing a CES-Remus pair for the scum in my eyes.

Um, ok? Doesn't that directly contradict the above comment?

But I do agree that it was very bad for CES to put up the third vote, hoping that someone could go and just take him out, and then planning on voting for the 4th guy tomorrow saying its his fault for the mislynch.

FOS: Nocmen

[GreenLiquid]

I think you've rushed quite quickly to your "buddy's" protection on post 117. Even more reason to lynch CES, and probably you next. Or vice versa.

Strong FOS: now a ranger

We've got a very poor use of Guilt by Association, plus it looks like you are trying to quicklynch. Remember: short days hurt the town. I need some serious explaination here.

[GreenLiquid]

I meant remus is acting like he doesn't want to lynch CES and seems to protect him by saying about not wanting to lynch quickly.

Do I need to spell it out for you?

1) remussaidow is trying to prevent you from quicklynching and drastically reducing the amount of info we will get out of the game day. That's not so much a defense of CES as it is an attack on your actions.
2) I would prefer if you defend your actions, not backpedal and go 'what I

meant

to say was...'

[GreenLiquid]

I swear on my mother's grave ( and my family's too ), that I am a Townie.

That's metagaming if I ever heard it

You should probably stop flashing the 'I can't defend myself against such flimsy evidence' card unless you want my vote.

[GreenLiquid]

IT'S BECAUSE I AM NOT A SCUM. =)

"I'm Not Scum, <smileyface>" is not a defense

In Mafia, it is important that players logically defend their actions, by either indicating their intent in performing them or the pro-townness of them. One must explain their actions, and if they do not, they will likely be lynched.

Although I don't usually factor in the type of metagaming you employed, I am not likely to vote due to the extremeness of your instance, but still,

IGMEOY

.

Right now, I'd like pressure on CES and remussaidow. As now a ranger has already claimed, I don't see what more we'll get out of pressuring him.

[GreenLiquid]

I'm mafia.

>_<
It would have been a little more interesting if you had actually... you know...

defended

yourself. Uggh.

Vote: now a ranger

[GreenLiquid]

Unvote

[GreenLiquid]

I had originally thought that now a ranger was scum giving up, but apparently now is town being a dumbass (or scum being a dumbass, who knows). Remussaidow's reasons for voting are

very

poor. In a game where 2 mislynches equal a loss, you do

not

lynch someone for not being helpful, you lynch because you think they're scum.

[GreenLiquid]

WTF?

That change of attitude does not compute. Just a few posts ago you are like "waah, go ahead and lynch me, I'm a townie<martyr>", and now you're like "you put a third vote on me! you're scum!" Explain?

[GreenLiquid]

At the moment, surprisingly, I am inclined to believe that now a ranger is genuine. In fact, here's the:

GreenLiquid D1 Suspicions List

Peter Venkman

- Playing the voice of reason. Acting town, but anyone playing that role is suspect just because it is frequently used as a scum cover.

Nocmen

- Tough call. Lurkerish, but he hasn't done anything to particularly arouse my suspicions. Going to call him neutral at this point in the game.

Remussaidow

- Very suspicious. Put someone at lynch -1 like CES did in a sneaky way. In addition, strange defensive behavior.

now a ranger

- I sooo want to vote now a ranger, but I think he's more the 'incompetent newbie' archetype, not so much the stupid scum. Willing to pass on his lynch today, but I have my eye on him.

CES

- Somewhat suspicious. I don't like the move he made earlier where he put remus at lynch -1. I'm not sure what to make of remus copying it, but I don't like it.

Eldarion

- He hasn't done much, but I get a small anti-town vibe from him. Not a good D1 lynch.

In closing, I will

Vote: Remussaidow

if I am not already.

[GreenLiquid]

Using this point as a "scum tell" feels like it really undercuts town's only tool for sniffing out scum. If no-one provided a voice of reason this game might have veered into wacky land a few pages ago...

I'm not saying that the voice of reason is scummy in and of itself, but rather it is commonly used as a scum cover-up. If played cleverly, the scum can avoid throwing out any suspicions and leaving any traceable record, but still look very pro-town. The voice of reason is sometimes town though, and the way you're playing it suggests a townie at the helm.

I mentioned it earlier, but I'll say it again. Town players have one motivation, whereas Scum players have two conflicting motivations. Through discussion and voting we can determine if a player is representing one interest or two.

The voice of reason actually acts as a way to mask one of the scum's needs. The scum want to do two things: look pro-town, and attempt to mislynch townies. When playing the voice of reason, the scum try their hardest to look pro-town, and

echo

the arguments of other people, so that if a mislynch does occur, someone else gets the blame.

I beleive the game can be won through logic. In fact, I wouldn't be playing otherwise. I thought others felt the same way, and that is why we are here on a message board, rather than tossing dice in the closet.

I don't entirely agree. One should not lynch solely on the basis of a person's logic, since even town can make logical errors. You want to also look at suspicious behavior. Voting records, tells, and style of play can tell a lot about of person's alignment.

Greenliquid

> You are a veteran player. In fact, you've run a few games. In your experience, what is the best way to sniff out scum?

In my opinion, one of the best ways to catch scum is not to look at the obvious actions, but the subtle ones. Scum won't try to cause a mislynch if it'll result in them getting lynched the very next day. Look at a player's actions and think "What motivation would a townsperson have to do this? What about scum?" But don't ignore the obvious; with newbie scum, the errors and attempted mislynches will likely be more obvious than otherwise. Certain tells can also point towards certain motivations.

Getting to nighttime only benefits 2 people in this game...

QFT, and this is a pretty good quote

[GreenLiquid]

Oh noes! Go town!

[GreenLiquid]

I did horrible even after I died. Once CES started making WIFOM arguments about the NK choice and started putting words in my mouth, I was 99.99% sure he was scum. Should've listened to my original VoR instinct...

Well played by Nocmen though. Didn't suspect him at all the entire time. Then again, he

was

lurking most of the game.