Open 530 "WSoB" (Stack the Deck): GAME OVER

[Sakura Hana]

before I forget

@pieguy: i'm not ignoring you but I don't have much time to post until tonight, and replying to all of your questions will take some time.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

ETL, how do you know Venrob doesn't actually think self-voting is scummy? Also, Brian voted for Ankamius, too, do you think that was scummy?

When I first read the thread, yes. I did, at first. Except Brian wasn't trying to push a lynch based on something that was actually town-motivated as hell. I got the impression he wasn't paying too much attention until later.

Here's the thing that bugs me. There's few scum who bus hardcore D1 and actually seek to run their partner up to L-1 in the first 10 pages. Their first duty is to help their partner mislynch. While obvious defense of them is a stupid idea, Sakura never comes out and says if she thinks Venrob is town. In fact, when pressed for an overt stance, she plays games and tells people to run around the thread looking for hints. She attempts to validate Venrob's reasoning instead. Two different actions that have the same intended outcome, which is to diffuse the wagon on her partner. If she was town, she would be looking for Venrob and Ank's intentions and giving clear explanations of her reads (like pieguy, like me, like hiraki, etc).

An inability to explain the reasons behind one's actions is a huge scumtell, imo. It tells me they don't actually have reasons and need to fabricate them. Sakura's "explanations" comes off disingenuous and flippant.

P-edit: Sakura, there's a difference between bait and a scumslip.

[Hiraki]

Self-voting at L-1 is scummy.

Action itself doesn't even matter at this point.

Self-voting in LYLO is scummy.

No, not really. Scum wouldn't self-vote and self-voting can be OK if there's a clear.

[Alduskkel]

While obvious defense of them is a stupid idea, Sakura never comes out and says if she thinks Venrob is town. In fact, when pressed for an overt stance, she plays games and tells people to run around the thread looking for hints.

Ok since Alduskkel guy here cant take hints and can't read, My comment on RVS votes means that I agree with Venrob and that I think he's town hence the wagon shouldn't even exist.

...although I agree with you that if Venrob flipped scum I would be very suspicious of Sakura. And Sakura was being way too coy (need to find a synonym so I can stop using that word all the time) for my taste.

I don't think you actually answered my question of, how do you know Venrob doesn't actually think self-voting is scummy?

[JacobSavage]

MY RVS WAS A LEGITIMATE REASON. UNVOTE:

But seriously, Venrob isn't looking total obvs scum so I'll be happy on Venrob town.

[Sakura Hana]

In fact, when pressed for an overt stance, she plays games and tells people to run around the thread looking for hints.

Scum dont read the thread, so I was making them read the thread and figure out what my stance was, last time I pressed someone for asking me questions I already answered in the thread they flipped scum, big surprise.

[Sakura Hana]

Self-voting at L-1 is scummy.

Yeaaaah, about that

Guess that's why I'm a global scum read.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Self-voting at L-1 is scummy.

Yeaaaah, about that

Guess that's why I'm a global scum read.

Self-voting as town, ESPECIALLY when it's to lynch yourself, is the dumbest fucking thing ever. It is against the spirit of the game, and a whiny thing to do. Not to even mention, against your wincon. You are showing me something YOU do, that MOST PEOPLE DON'T. What you're telling me with this post is that you are terrible as town. I don't know about others here, but that is horrible play. As town, it shouldn't matter if you get lynched or die, as long as you contribute as much as possible to the goal.

Regardless of all that, it doesn't even apply here!

Somebody asked me something I didn't answer and I thought I did but I don't know (I'm mobile-ish at the moment). Do I think Venrob genuinely thinks it was scummy to self-vote in RVS? I dunno but I think that'd be pretty stupid considering the obvious intention behind it. At least it was obvious to me. Which is why when Brian (or maybe it was someone else, but I think it was Brian) had a town-read on Ank on page 2, it didn't ping me as something like that normally would. I almost posted about that.

[DoctorEagle]

This is a prod dodge. Eagle is V/LA and Im pretty busy myself. I'll get to this later tonight

[pieguyn]

wow Alduskkel is sheeping me a lot.
@Alduskkel: can you plz explain why you keep sheeping me? certainly you've got some reads yourself you could follow, too

STOP POSTING SO MUCH!

Seriously I don't have any idea whats going on.

Will get around to reading.

MY RVS WAS A LEGITIMATE REASON. UNVOTE:

But seriously, Venrob isn't looking total obvs scum so I'll be happy on Venrob town.

oh great, now it's active lurking. and it only started after he was being pressured, too. = =

explain better please, otherwise it doesn't really help > < at least give your idea on the whole Ankamius/Venrob and how people are reacting to it...

Pieguyn: Can you clearly display your reads on Sakura and Adduskel?

Alduskkel's actions seem fine for me currently. leaning town on him for now cause he made it through all my questions without saying anything weird, but I'm a bit suspicious of how he's sheeping me all the time.

Sakura's leaning scum cause she hasn't yet provided a valid answer to my questions, I'm waiting for her ATM :>

[JacobSavage]

I haven't been aware of an Ank/Ven thing

sorry?

[Brian Skies]

Sorry about the lack of activity. I was pretty busy yesterday and today. But I found something really interesting during my quick catch-up read-through:

Somebody asked me something I didn't answer and I thought I did but I don't know (I'm mobile-ish at the moment). Do I think Venrob genuinely thinks it was scummy to self-vote in RVS? I dunno but I think that'd be pretty stupid considering the obvious intention behind it.

At least it was obvious to me. Which is why when Brian (or maybe it was someone else, but I think it was Brian) had a town-read on Ank on page 2, it didn't ping me as something like that normally would. I almost posted about that.

I'd like it if you could expand on your thoughts about this, ETL, since you're the first person to notice it. Other people's opinions are cool too.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Something I always find suspicious is early town reads with no clear foundation. When I first read that post, I was like "whaa..." and made a note about it. After finishing the thread, and having had some time to think about the motivations behind several posts, I realized that you saw the same thing I did. Because your town read had a verifiable source, it isn't as scummy as it would be if you had no reason to call someone town based on the posts in the game to that point. Doing so would imply you have other knowledge. This is an open setup, so it's not like there are hidden PRs beyond whatever the mafia chose and whatever the town rolled in turn. Even then, the information one has to start the game is the same unless you are scum or the traitor, and the outcome there is the same as well.

[Brian Skies]

@Ankamius: What's your opinion of Sakura?

You just sort of popped in here to vote Venrob. By the way, I think that's just how Venrob plays. He explains stuff like that, I don't think it's an attempt at towncred. This is based on my experience with him in Open 472.

Then why were you on his wagon?

Leaning town on Sakura so far.

Reasons?

@pieguyn: Disagree. If I can get someone to definitively say "this guy is town" or "this guy is scum" then even if they don't explain it they're still committed,

which leaves less room for them to opportunistically get on wagons.

You do realize you've already jumped on two wagons, right? And both of your jumps look pretty opportunistic to me.

I find Venrob's reaction to the self-vote EXACTLY what we should be looking for. It was a dirty, opportunistic jump on the first thing that could be called scummy.

How did I get a townread from this logic (

still waiting for response to my last post

)?

mb

Sakura+Venrob team here

? she was really defending him a lot, so for me, all of a sudden suspecting him seems like distancing and not a valid read. 0.0

I can see this as a very real possibility when following the logic in your post.

The flip flop is based on what Ank said, the thing is that Ank is as guilty,

and it was reafirmed that venrob also seems to want to appear town on his next post

, due to these events i re-evaluated my read on him.

And how does this lead to a vote on Ank over Venrob?

Do you think he really wants to lynch himself? Then the vote is a joke. If you think it's a bad joke and that it will lead to nothing, then go ahead and vote him. That's your reasoning and not mine. The problem with that, however, is that we do not lynch for bad jokes, we lynch people we think are scum. Town and scum can make bad jokes so therefore it's useless to go about trying to find something bad/good about the individual action of self-voting.

Well said!

The problem is that she used that as an opinion.

And the problem I have is that people lack the critical reading skills to see the inference.

No, but what were you thinking?

Meta reasons.

ETL, how do you know Venrob doesn't actually think self-voting is scummy? Also, Brian voted for Ankamius, too, do you think that was scummy?

Okay, I was wrong. Alduskkel noticed it too. What is your opinion on this then, Alduskkel?

But seriously, Venrob isn't looking total obvs scum so I'll be happy on Venrob town.

Explain.

notscience self votes in RVS all the time

js

Self-voting denies town information from wagon analysis, you know.

Maybe since it's RVS

and ns does it as town... hmm

Unvote

While i think about it.

You had already mentioned this point. Why didn't you consider this earlier?

Something I always find suspicious is early town reads with no clear foundation. When I first read that post, I was like "whaa..." and made a note about it. After finishing the thread, and having had some time to think about the motivations behind several posts, I realized that you saw the same thing I did.

Because your town read had a verifiable source, it isn't as scummy as it would be if you had no reason to call someone town based on the posts in the game to that point.

Doing so would imply you have other knowledge. This is an open setup, so it's not like there are hidden PRs beyond whatever the mafia chose and whatever the town rolled in turn. Even then, the information one has to start the game is the same unless you are scum or the traitor, and the outcome there is the same as well.

The bold part is interesting to me and it gives me a townread on you (although I can neither affirm nor deny that we saw the same things, I do have confidence in it). Can you explain the underlined part?

Also, Pieguy is making a pretty solid case as town for me.

[Sakura Hana]

since you question how a self-vote will give us info, I guess you think it won't give us as much as a regular vote. can you explain why plz?

Well your guess is wrong, I do think a self-vote would give way less info than a vote on someone else.

I don't think you asked him about the self-vote? if you thought it'd be a good idea to find out the information, why couldn't you just ask him?

I didn't ask him, but I now know why he did it anyway so it's pointless to ask.

ad hominem or whatever it's called

As mentioned previously last time someone called ad hom on me calling them out for not reading what I had wrote and ask questions again that were already answered they flipped scum, I got my methods of scumhunting and you got yours so let's leave it at that.

can you quote what made you think this plz? and plz link exactly where you changed your opinion on Ank.

93

why this ^ then? here you're implying he voted for a legit reason, instead of just trying to appear town.

His vote was legit, it got screwed up when he continued to pretending to be town after being called out for it (also I hadn't noticed that until Ank mentioned it)

Hope that was all of them because im gonna be busy again.

P-Edit:

@Brian: I find it scummy even tho ns does it as town, just like ETL finds self-hammering as town scummy even tho i've done it. But I'm still not clear on whether ank's motivations with the self-vote were really information gain or confusion, which is why I decided to unvote him for now.

[Ankamius]

Leaning town on Sakura so far.

Reasons?

Up to that point, she was taking a stance that was contrary to the general opinion of the game and was being very vocal about it. This gives a pretty strong town vibe for this stage of the game.

She has since dropped down to null-scum territory.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Something I always find suspicious is early town reads with no clear foundation. When I first read that post, I was like "whaa..." and made a note about it. After finishing the thread, and having had some time to think about the motivations behind several posts, I realized that you saw the same thing I did.

Because your town read had a verifiable source, it isn't as scummy as it would be if you had no reason to call someone town based on the posts in the game to that point.

Doing so would imply you have other knowledge. This is an open setup, so it's not like there are hidden PRs beyond whatever the mafia chose and whatever the town rolled in turn. Even then, the information one has to start the game is the same unless you are scum or the traitor, and the outcome there is the same as well.

The bold part is interesting to me and it gives me a townread on you (although I can neither affirm nor deny that we saw the same things, I do have confidence in it). Can you explain the underlined part?

At that point, I could see a reason why you thought Ank was town, so your read made sense. I could point to a post and say, "That's why Brian thinks Ank is town". If you came out with a town read that I couldn't go back in the thread and figure out why, then I'd wonder why you thought so. Notably, scum have the most town reads early game, in an effort to gain town cred by either buddying town or by later being able to say "See? I told you we shouldn't have lynched that person." It's rather transparent, but the tell holds true. Someone with an unjustified town read generally has some other reason to say they think the person is town - because they know who the townies are.

[Hiraki]

And the problem I have is that people lack the critical reading skills to see the inference.

Okay, so we don't get it apparently. So then why are you being butthurt and not just explaining it?

[Brian Skies]

And the problem I have is that people lack the critical reading skills to see the inference.

Okay, so we don't get it apparently. So then why are you being butthurt and not just explaining it?

I'm not getting butthurt about it. But she has definitely inferred that she doesn't like the wagon.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it (maybe she didn't actually have a stance). But that's how I felt the first time I read it. If I offended someone, I apologize.

[Brian Skies]

And the problem I have is that people lack the critical reading skills to see the inference.

Okay, so we don't get it apparently. So then why are you being butthurt and not just explaining it?

I'm not getting butthurt about it. But she has definitely inferred that she doesn't like the wagon.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it (maybe she didn't actually have a stance). But that's how I felt the first time I read it. If I offended someone, I apologize.

[thenewearth]

Didn't I post here?

Darn

[Viera Assassin]

I stand prodded.

[Alduskkel]

^^Frikkin' lurkers up there.

wow Alduskkel is sheeping me a lot.
@Alduskkel: can you plz explain why you keep sheeping me? certainly you've got some reads yourself you could follow, too

Early game, not a lot to go off of. A lot of the players have barely posted anything more than RVS. And in any case, you seem to be doing a good job of picking apart Sakura, as well as calling out some lurkers.

@Brian: I was on Venrob's wagon because it was a wagon. I frequently bandwagon in the RVS.

@pieguyn: Disagree. If I can get someone to definitively say "this guy is town" or "this guy is scum" then even if they don't explain it they're still committed,

which leaves less room for them to opportunistically get on wagons.

You do realize you've already jumped on two wagons, right? And both of your jumps look pretty opportunistic to me.

Are they? See above for why I got on the Venrob wagon. And Sakura absolutely deserved that vote at the time, she definitely needed pressure.

Considering I'm not being very subtle about sheeping/bandwagoning I don't think my behavior is scummy. But I might be biased.

ETL, how do you know Venrob doesn't actually think self-voting is scummy? Also, Brian voted for Ankamius, too, do you think that was scummy?

Okay, I was wrong. Alduskkel noticed it too. What is your opinion on this then, Alduskkel?

I don't think either vote on Ankamius was scummy.

[yabbaguy]

Surprisingly, a few kibitzers are around to watch the proceedings. They huddle around the table to watch all the hubbub going on at the tables. There isn't a single member of the media on the scene though... yet.

Vote Count 1.3

12 alive, 7 to lynch

Venrob (4): Brian Skies, Hiraki, Ankamius, EspeciallyTheLies
JacobSavage (2): pieguyn, Alduskkel
Alduskkel (1): thenewearth
Ankamius (1): Venrob

Not Voting: DoctorEagle, Viera Assassin, Sakura Hana, JacobSavage

Deadline: September 28, 3 PM EDT (GMT-4) ((expired on 2013-09-28 15:00:00))

[Viera Assassin]

Sakura self-votes:

1. Is it RVS (specifically, >5 pages in?)?
yes -> null
no -> go to 2

2. Is it later on in D1 ~ sometime before LyLo?
yes -> 3
no -> Sakura wouldn't do that. Not in LyLo/MyLo.

3. Is it accompanied by AtE--specifically, frustration?
yes -> town
no -> scum