NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Amethyst Kitty]

Mala thinks HD is town though, she might be able to go in depth to why

[Nachomamma8]

I would love that.

[Bulbazak]

To recap, your excuse for everything is that you have weird game theory stances. That is

my opinion

. Even if I didn't think they were weird, I'd find it suspicious that they just so happen to align to get you to push town lynches and avoid scum lynches.

"Weird" theory stances? Not scummy, but weird? Then you back that up by just saying that it's your opinion. Seriously, the wording here is really wishy-washy. It's like you want to continue pushing me as scum but are now afraid of the backlash that would come after my flip. Also, where did I say that this was my "excuse for everything"?

Your new spin on things is that I tried to "push your lynch through quickly", which is a complete fabrication.

No it's not. Everyone else that day was taking notice on how strange you were acting when pushing my wagon.

First, what you're suggesting doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because people not buying into your theory with you alive shows that there would have been no pressing need for hypo-scum me to get rid of you.

Yeah, but I'm a tenacious little bugger.

Secondly, people strongly push for their suspect's lynch all the time, and you interpreting this as me wanting to lynch you quickly is nothing more than you arbitrarily projecting your case onto my play.

True, but normally when they push a lynch, they don't talk about someone else the entire time.

Thirdly, and this is the main problem with this whole line of reasoning, I actually

had

a reason to be "desperate", if that's what you want to call it, because I very strongly felt that Rena shouldn't be lynched, and being on your wagon and making sure it stayed ahead of hers was the only way I had of preventing that.

Nice try. The Rena wagon didn't really become a thing until AFTER I was brought up to L-1. Saying that you were on my wagon to protect her is a lie.

You are twisting my actions to fit your read, and that's what scum does.

That's funny, because I had a town read on you for the longest time. It was PoE and your actions following Slandaar's lynch that made me reconsider my read on you. Nice try.

This current HD wagon is almost an exact repeat of yesterday's Rena wagon. Minus PV, it has all same people as in that vote count I quoted, and as previously mentioned, I strongly suspect that there's scum in that group. On the other hand, it's also a repeat of yesterday's Seanald wagon, with Nacho leading and a whole bunch of people sheeping in quick succession, and that resulted in a scum lynch, so meh. The actual case looks decent enough.

What are you trying to say here? Because it looks like you're both for and against the lynch.

@Nacho: You still haven't answered my questions.

I've been thinking about them. Generally I find more scum in multiball than normal since crosskills, but that might be an incorrect assumption. I don't think PV is scum, but I also don't really think that it makes sense for a random vig to be tossed into the neighborhood. We're probably lacking on power roles at this point, so why is a vig given the benefit of a townie he can talk to while every other power role is completely isolated?

Why are scum given the benefit of a townie to talk to when figuring out their night actions? I'm not sure how strong a point that is and how that would really effect the balance in the long run. And if we are shorter on PRs than is usual, wouldn't it be better balance-wise to pair a townie with the vig?

The "I don't give a crap" attitude is more indicative of town in this instance than scum, as I would think scum in his position would be more compliant with the town.

In the end, I think that town is more likely to do something for the town ESPECIALLY if he had a strong read on his neighbor being scum and especially if he was continually getting roleblocked. He's been a useless sack of shit for a while now and I'm not so confident I'm more willing to believe that town would put us through this before scum would.

I don't know. I've met some town players who remained defiant until the end. I'm not sure whether this is a trait of ThAd in general, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this time.

Bulbazak, why does your PoE get you CTD instead of ThAd?

Desperado is essentially conf. town, since I don't see the only neighborhood scum from both teams being in a neighborhood together. ThAd has claimed vig., and I believe him, since I can't see scum acting the way he has. The "I don't give a crap" attitude is more indicative of town in this instance than scum, as I would think scum in his position would be more compliant with the town. That leaves PV and CTD. As I've said before, I can't see one scum team being given

such a huge advantage

over the other, which is what being paired with a vig. would be. Anybody who wants to explain PV-scum to me needs to explain that. Plus, I just like the idea of 1 killer per neighborhood representing each team (both scumteams + town). That leaves CTD. I'm even more confident in this given CTD's actions yesterday concerning my wagon. He was really trying to push it through as quickly as possible. He probably knew that once I died, my line of inquiry died with me, and as today has shown, even with acknowledgment that scum is likely in the neighborhoods, the majority of the town wants to hunt elsewhere.

It's a huge swingy thing, and could be not advantageous at all depending on who wound up in the scum-neighbor and vig-neighbor slots. But, it's a point to think about.

Slandaar's flip was town vanilla neighbor.

Blue roles so far have been ninja and goon

red role was mafia doctor neighbor

I dunno. I don't think this takes PV out of the running for blue mafia neighbor.

Are you suggesting that red scum might be more powerful than blue scum in order to merit such a pairing? Because I'm not sure if we've seen enough flips to tell either way.

Could all three of PV, HD, and CTD be scum?

No.

[CrashTextDummie]

"Weird" theory stances? Not scummy, but weird? Then you back that up by just saying that it's your opinion. Seriously, the wording here is really wishy-washy. It's like you want to continue pushing me as scum but are now afraid of the backlash that would come after my flip. Also, where did I say that this was my "excuse for everything"?

The wording isn't wishy-washy, you've just entered full word-twisting mode. We've long established that I find your theory stances scummy. I've said more than once that I struggle seeing them as part of a pro-town mindset. You have repeated them and defended them, and

in my opinion

, it doesn't change the fact that you are scum. You claim that I've been countered on everything, and that I am therefore scummy to continue my push against you yesterday and this is my retort. And no, you didn't say this was your excuse for everything, that is firmly my interpretation of your defense.

Your new spin on things is that I tried to "push your lynch through quickly", which is a complete fabrication.

No it's not. Everyone else that day was taking notice on how strange you were acting when pushing my wagon.

Show me quotes.

Secondly, people strongly push for their suspect's lynch all the time, and you interpreting this as me wanting to lynch you quickly is nothing more than you arbitrarily projecting your case onto my play.

True, but normally when they push a lynch, they don't talk about someone else the entire time.

It's no secret that I would have preferred a Nero Cain lynch yesterday, but unlike you, I was willing to compromise. It's also a huge stretch to accuse me of talking about someone else "the entire time". I had ample reason to vote you and have communicated this sufficiently.

Thirdly, and this is the main problem with this whole line of reasoning, I actually

had

a reason to be "desperate", if that's what you want to call it, because I very strongly felt that Rena shouldn't be lynched, and being on your wagon and making sure it stayed ahead of hers was the only way I had of preventing that.

Nice try. The Rena wagon didn't really become a thing until AFTER I was brought up to L-1. Saying that you were on my wagon to protect her is a lie.

Your original accusation was that I continued to push you "almost out of desperation". There is your explanation. You were the leading wagon for almost the entire day and a lynch i strongly supported, giving me zero reason to remove my vote until Seanald's claim. When the Rena wagon built up, I naturally intensified my efforts to get you lynched over her.

You are twisting my actions to fit your read, and that's what scum does.

That's funny, because I had a town read on you for the longest time. It was PoE and your actions following Slandaar's lynch that made me reconsider my read on you. Nice try.

Exactly my point. The very same actions that made me your #1 town read to the extent where you would have preferred being vigged over me you now present as reasons to suspect me. If you had stuck to just your PoE, it would have at least sounded consistent, but you retrofitted my entire play to accommodate your PoE in order to cook up a case against me.

This current HD wagon is almost an exact repeat of yesterday's Rena wagon. Minus PV, it has all same people as in that vote count I quoted, and as previously mentioned, I strongly suspect that there's scum in that group. On the other hand, it's also a repeat of yesterday's Seanald wagon, with Nacho leading and a whole bunch of people sheeping in quick succession, and that resulted in a scum lynch, so meh. The actual case looks decent enough.

What are you trying to say here? Because it looks like you're both for and against the lynch.

He's not my preferred lynch, is what I'm saying, and I suspect there's scum on his wagon. Scum on his wagon doesn't make him town though and I could see him as scum based on the case presented and his reaction to it.

Who do you think was scum on yesterday's Rena wagon, and why?

[CrashTextDummie]

Unvote

Need to regroup. I have a couple hours to reread tomorrow.

[penguin_alien]

Desperado, what's your take on lynching in or out of the neighborhoods?

[Nachomamma8]

Why are scum given the benefit of a townie to talk to when figuring out their night actions? I'm not sure how strong a point that is and how that would really effect the balance in the long run. And if we are shorter on PRs than is usual, wouldn't it be better balance-wise to pair a townie with the vig?

neighbors sorting each other out is an interaction that is older than time itself.
townie chilling with a vig is new and strange and throws things off balance a bit, especially considering i don't see CTD close to anything like scum. but now we have that nice sexy pretty much confirmation on ThAd, so I'm guessing you're right on this front too.

[ThAdmiral]

So are we ever going to come to a consensus?

Maybe an interesting question would be who out of me/pv/ctd would people be happiest to vote. I'm interested to see where people stand on that, although a few have already made their stances clear.

(I'm for ctd at the moment btw)

[Human Destroyer]

He's not my preferred lynch, is what I'm saying, and I suspect there's scum on his wagon. Scum on his wagon doesn't make him town though and I could see him as scum based on the case presented and his reaction to it.

I'm curious as to what "case" you're talking about, since the closest thing I see to one is coming from someone that isn't even off the wagon (Bulbazak).

The reasons as far as I've gathered mostly pertain to my suspecting an already replaced out player because I reacted to a post I thought was suspicious?Baezu didn't even seem to realize I existed till I voted them, no one on my wagon has actually voiced suspicion before this game day (except maybe Nacho idr for sure, but I'm 99% sure no one else has).

[Human Destroyer]

HD I'm coming to really appreciate you in my games man

I mean, I already did, but I can see that you are somewhat changing your playstyle and I love it

I can't handle all these walls

This is the most sus post you've made so far. Why did you feel the need to make this?

oh hey this is why hd suspects bacde
i am fairly disgusted in myself for even looking this up

this was around the time where my posting was sparse due to me being busy

the fact that he chose to compliment this supposed "playstyle" combined with the fact that he always tries to get on my good side when he's scum is sus as fuck

he complimented your playstyle and that is scummy? why?

meanwhile, you town against bacde scum:
Gonzo Mafia - Called you town, buddied up to you a little.

Banjo Kazooie - Had you claim after him, no other interaction.

So what do you mean, he always tries to get on your good sign when he's scum?

Soft pushed you until he had to convince you were town in the face of a cop guilty.

Alright, maybe I'll word this differently.

He only tries to get on my good side as scum, never as town.

[penguin_alien]

I'd vote either you (ThAd) or CTD. Some things about you look scummier (cutting ties with your neighbor without anything more specific to go on, claiming a role that we have yet to see proof of) whereas I think CTD's reactions to neighborhood things have been pretty genuine, but then if you are a town PR, I hate to play into scum's hands by lynching you. I have no interest in lynching PV unless PoE, by which I mean other neighborhood members flipping, leaves him as the only possibility. I just don't see scum-PV in his reactions today.

Then too, I'm not following what Nachomamma8 is saying here:

Why are scum given the benefit of a townie to talk to when figuring out their night actions? I'm not sure how strong a point that is and how that would really effect the balance in the long run. And if we are shorter on PRs than is usual, wouldn't it be better balance-wise to pair a townie with the vig?

neighbors sorting each other out is an interaction that is older than time itself.
townie chilling with a vig is new and strange and throws things off balance a bit, especially considering i don't see CTD close to anything like scum. but now we have that nice sexy pretty much confirmation on ThAd, so I'm guessing you're right on this front too.

and I want Desperado's current take, since I'm sure enough he's town that I can't imagine lynching him.

[Human Destroyer]

I'm curious as to what "case" you're talking about, since the closest thing I see to one is coming from someone that isn't even

on

the wagon (Bulbazak).

ebwop

[Cephrir]

I suspect you largely due to PoE. I have a good number of town reads, AK is plainly redscum, and they need a scumbuddy. Meanwhile you haven't done anything to convince me you're town since, like, Day 1, and the neighbors aren't going to be red.

[Desperado]

Desperado, what's your take on lynching in or out of the neighborhoods?

The same as it's always been honestly--don't care. I'd still like to go back to AK (where are you?) and Baezu destroyed my bacde townread. I have the same concerns about a Thad lynch as you do, and "PoE" when we don't have access to Mastin's set-up is just circlejerking.

Is Bulb/CTD TvT?

[ffullisade]

Are you suggesting that red scum might be more powerful than blue scum in order to merit such a pairing? Because I'm not sure if we've seen enough flips to tell either way.

No I'm not. I don't think we've seen enough flips either. I don't want assumptions of set-up symmetry OR asymmetry to drive the direction of scumhunting.

[ffullisade]

Mala thinks HD is town though, she might be able to go in depth to why

Now would be a good time for her to do this.

[PeregrineV]

prod or poke received, but back later.

<<< Please make that 'back later' be today, and not Monday. >>>

My weekend access is spotty, as given in sig#3.

<<< Which is why I wanted you to post before the weekend began. >>>

[PeregrineV]

Is there an actual Human Destroyer case from the 5 HD voters? My biggest scum indicators came more from his hydra and Om's plays, although his play this game has been subpar.

For the neighbors, if it is balanced at 1 red and 1 blue, then Desp is town to me, leaving it between CTD and ThAd. ThAd has either bad luck or started with a crappy fakeclaim, but if he's town, then CTD is some scum PR (see Seanld's doc flip).

@Bulba

- I like your posting, and think your town. However, when that happens, I also wonder how you can be that strong a town-read and still alive. Can you speculate about why that might be?

[Bulbazak]

"Weird" theory stances? Not scummy, but weird? Then you back that up by just saying that it's your opinion. Seriously, the wording here is really wishy-washy. It's like you want to continue pushing me as scum but are now afraid of the backlash that would come after my flip. Also, where did I say that this was my "excuse for everything"?

The wording isn't wishy-washy, you've just entered full word-twisting mode.

Have I? Let's look at 2 parts from that post and see if what you say is wishy-washy or not.

To recap, your excuse for everything is that you have weird game theory stances. That is

my opinion

. Even if I didn't think they were weird, I'd find it suspicious that they just so happen to align to get you to push town lynches and avoid scum lynches.

This current HD wagon is almost an exact repeat of yesterday's Rena wagon. Minus PV, it has all same people as in that vote count I quoted, and as previously mentioned, I strongly suspect that there's scum in that group. On the other hand, it's also a repeat of yesterday's Seanald wagon, with Nacho leading and a whole bunch of people sheeping in quick succession, and that resulted in a scum lynch, so meh. The actual case looks decent enough.

In the first one, you start by calling my stances "weird" instead of "scummy" (I know you'll argue semantics here, but the point still stands.), following that up by stating that it is just

your

opinion, as if you want that to be stated should my lynch go through and I flip town. You then end with saying that if you didn't find my stances weird (not scummy), you'd find them suspicious (scummy), which seems to be a setup to continue pushing my lynch at some point in the future.

In the second one, you imply that HD is town by saying that it's a repeat of the Rena wagon. However, you then imply scum by saying it's a repeat of the Seanald wagon and saying that "the actual case looks decent enough". In essence, you refused to take a stance on his alignment.

In both of these posts, you both stated that HD and I were scum and not scum, but didn't come down one way or the other on our alignment. THAT is being wishy-washy. So no, I don't believe I'm twisting your words whatsoever.

You claim that I've been countered on everything, and that I am therefore scummy to continue my push against you yesterday and this is my retort.

No, I said your push yesterday was scummy, because you pushed my wagon while continuously focusing elsewhere. Your thoughts and your actions didn't quite line up, and by the end of the day, you were just sitting on the wagon while not commenting about it.

And no, you didn't say this was your excuse for everything, that is firmly my interpretation of your defense.

But at no point have I used that as my defense. I've defended my stances in game when asked about them, but never have I said, "I'm not scum because of my gameplay stances.". Seriously, what is this?

Your new spin on things is that I tried to "push your lynch through quickly", which is a complete fabrication.

No it's not. Everyone else that day was taking notice on how strange you were acting when pushing my wagon.

Show me quotes.

CTD also no longer makes me happy like he used to.

What about CTD do you not like Nacho? I still think he's town, though I don't think he's been as transparently genuine as he was earlier on in the game.

It's the loss of being transparently genuine that hurts me the most.

Cephrir
PeregrineV (DLG)
penguin_alien (Baby Spice)
Seanald
Rena(/Haylen) (fuzzybutternut)

all remaining scum is somewhere in this group I think

Scum-list, recently I might add CTD But I kinda don't wanna.

On closer inspection while looking back over those posts, they're not about the way you were pushing my wagon so much as the way you were acting in general after Slandaar was lynched. My mind kinda connected the 2 together. Still, people started getting suspicious of you due to your actions that day.

It's no secret that I would have preferred a Nero Cain lynch yesterday, but unlike you, I was willing to compromise.

I did compromise, on Seanald, as I said I would earlier in the game. Until that point, however, the only other viable wagon was Rena, and there was no way I was voting her.

It's also a huge stretch to accuse me of talking about someone else "the entire time".

Well you sure talked about him being scum more than you did me.

When the Rena wagon built up, I naturally intensified my efforts to get you lynched over her.

Except when the Rena wagon really started to build up, you didn't talk about me at all. You either were talking about how lynching Rena was a bad idea or how Nero was scum. In fact, I actually think you talked less when Rena was being wagoned than you did beforehand.

Exactly my point. The very same actions that made me your #1 town read to the extent where you would have preferred being vigged over me you now present as reasons to suspect me. If you had stuck to just your PoE, it would have at least sounded consistent, but you retrofitted my entire play to accommodate your PoE in order to cook up a case against me.

You're acting as if town never reconsiders their reads or anything else that happened in the game. After Seanald was lynched and I suspected that you were scum, I started thinking about your previous actions, and I began to see them in a new light. Face it, nobody's reads are constant over the course of the entire game, since they need to change as new information comes to light. I've found that scum tend to have very rigid reads throughout the game, as they think that changing or "reconsidering" them would be the same as contradicting themselves, even if the basis for such reconsiderations are present. They also seem to attack using that same system of rigidity, calling others scummy for contradicting themselves or being inconsistent, when it is simply a natural evolution of thought. Therefore, I find you attacking me for my ever evolving read on the game, calling it "inconsistent", scummy.

Who do you think was scum on yesterday's Rena wagon, and why?

If I had to pick one, Baezu.

@Bulba

- I like your posting, and think your town. However, when that happens, I also wonder how you can be that strong a town-read and still alive. Can you speculate about why that might be?

I'm a strong townread? When did this happen? I just thought that everyone was taking a break before they went for Lynch Bulba Round 3, because honestly, I can still feel that tension and urgency to make my scumhunting count before scum succeed in getting me lynched.

[PeregrineV]

I'm a strong townread? When did this happen? I just thought that everyone was taking a break before they went for Lynch Bulba Round 3, because honestly, I can still feel that tension and urgency to make my scumhunting count before scum succeed in getting me lynched.

We just finished Amruika Mafia, where I was scum and you did a great job catching me, but were unable to get your case pushed through all the way. I feel like you are at a similar situation here. The fact there are 2 scumteams and neither has deemed you killworthy (ThAd notwithstanding) means that, if town, your cases have been on town.

If that's the case, I say use that knowledge to your benefit to see who has also joined your cases while still wanting to lynch you.

[penguin_alien]

PV, why do you think scum would NK someone who keeps getting wagoned up?

[Bulbazak]

We just finished Amruika Mafia, where I was scum and you did a great job catching me, but were unable to get your case pushed through all the way. I feel like you are at a similar situation here. The fact there are 2 scumteams and neither has deemed you killworthy (ThAd notwithstanding) means that, if town, your cases have been on town.

Didn't you push me as scum the entire time in that game and keep me around for Lylo?

[Amethyst Kitty]

I'll be out for a few days

~mara

[Baezu]

So are we ever going to come to a consensus?

Maybe an interesting question would be who out of me/pv/ctd would people be happiest to vote. I'm interested to see where people stand on that, although a few have already made their stances clear.

(I'm for ctd at the moment btw)

PV would be my top choice and then CTD

[Human Destroyer]

V/LA Tuesday-Thursday. Hershey Park wooooooo

<<< Got it. >>>

Since I'll be popping in for modding purposes, I'll try to post in my games as well.