NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Bulbazak]

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

That still doesn't explain why PV is more likely to be scum than CTD.

[pirate mollie]

UNVOTE: perv

[ffullisade]

UNVOTE: perv

<<< I'll count it, but I'd prefer the unvote be outside the quotes, even though you're quoting yourself from a hydra-slip. >>>

[penguin_alien]

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

OK, but see, Desperado thought his neighbor was scum for specific things, the case in #4038 for one, the change between his scumhunting in the QT N3 and his D4 activity for another. ThAd, as of #4503, PV was a town read for you. He moved into possible scum after your first claimed failed vig shot, but you said you stopped talking about targets with him during that night. At the time, you said your failure to hit meant you were likely blocked and you figured scum blocked you to keep you from hitting CTD. Since if you're telling us the truth in hindsight it's more likely that your target was protected, I can see where you no longer have CTD above PV as scum per se. But nothing you're saying explains why you want PV lynched over CTD or Desperado.

P-edit: ...or, what Bulbazak said.

[mastin2]

PeregrineV is at L-2!

One-Hundred-Forty-Ninth Votecount

:

(Seventh Votecount of Day Five,

AKA, the "This took too long to be a votecount. :/" votecount.

)

PeregrineV - 5 (Baezu, Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie, Amethyst Kitty, ThAdmiral)

Amethyst Kitty - 3 (Desperado, PeregrineV, Cephrir)

ThAdmiral - 1 (Human Destroyer)
CrashTextDummie - 1 (Bulbazak)
Human Destroyer - 1 (penguin_alien)

Not Voting - 1 (ffullisade)

With

12

alive, it is

7

to lynch.

Day Five's deadline is Thursday, August 22nd, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-08-22 12:30:00).

Spoiler: Changes from last votecount

PeregrineV - 5 (Baezu, Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie, Amethyst Kitty,

ffullisade

, ThAdmiral)
Amethyst Kitty - 3 (Desperado, PeregrineV, Cephrir)
ThAdmiral - 1 (Human Destroyer)
CrashTextDummie - 1 (Bulbazak)
Human Destroyer - 1 (

penguin_alien

)

Not Voting - 1 (

penguin_alien

,

ffullisade

)

Last votecount was page 225, post 5618.

Spoiler: Player Vote History D4

CrashTextDummie: Bulbazak->PeregrineV
Cephrir: Amethyst Kitty
Nachomamma8: PeregrineV
PeregrineV: Amethyst Kitty
Baezu: Amethysty Kitty->PeregrineV
Bulbazak: CrashTextDummie
Desperado: Amethyst Kitty
penguin_alien: Human Destroyer
ThAdmiral: PeregrineV
Amethyst Kitty: penguin_alien->Unvote->PeregrineV
ffullisade: Baezu->Unvote->ThAdmiral->PeregrineV->Unvote
Human Destroyer: ThAdmiral

Spoiler: Vote History D4

on Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 04:02p,

Desperado

votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 5484.
On Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 04:19p,

PeregrineV

votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 5485.
On Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 04:32p,

Baezu

votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 5486.
On Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 05:10p,

Amethyst Kitty

votes

penguin_alien

in post 5488.
On Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 05:37p,

Bulbazak

votes

CrashTextDummie

in post 5490.
On Fri, Aug 8/02/13 @ 08:05p,

ffullisade

votes

Baezu

in post 5496.
On Sat, Aug 8/03/13 @ 09:49a,

Cephrir

votes

Amethyst Kitty

in post 5503.
On Sat, Aug 8/03/13 @ 06:30p,

CrashTextDummie

votes

Bulbazak

in post 5509.
On Sat, Aug 8/03/13 @ 08:32p,

Baezu

votes

PeregrineV

in post 5516.
On Mon, Aug 8/05/13 @ 00:32a,

Nachomamma8

votes

PeregrineV

in post 5519.
On Mon, Aug 8/05/13 @ 12:56p,

ffullisade

unvotes

Baezu

in post 5526.
On Mon, Aug 8/05/13 @ 01:10p,

Amethyst Kitty

unvotes

penguin_alien

in post 5527.
On Mon, Aug 8/05/13 @ 02:31p,

Human Destroyer

votes

ThAdmiral

in post 5529.
On Wed, Aug 8/07/13 @ 10:33a,

CrashTextDummie

unvotes

Bulbazak

and votes

PeregrineV

in post 5568.
On Wed, Aug 8/07/13 @ 12:49p,

Amethyst Kitty

votes

PeregrineV

in post 5571.
On Wed, Aug 8/07/13 @ 07:45p,

ffullisade

votes

ThAdmiral

in post 5587.
On Wed, Aug 8/07/13 @ 09:55p,

ffullisade

votes

PeregrineV

in post 5598.
On Thu, Aug 8/08/13 @ 00:45a,

ThAdmiral

votes

PeregrineV

in post 5610.
On Thu, Aug 8/08/13 @ 05:16p,

penguin_alien

votes

Human Destroyer

in post 5622.
On Thu, Aug 8/08/13 @ 08:39p,

ffullisade

unvotes

PeregrineV

in post 5627.

[CrashTextDummie]

I didn't like the way you pushed me yesterday. Your primary reason was that you thought I was scum partners with Nero and that we were distancing from each other. Yet, with your primary case on Nero, you were voting for me instead. Later, you said that you still thought Nero was scum, but that we were not partners. However, you still kept your vote on me. All your reasons for voting me yesterday were repeatedly countered, yet you continued to push them almost out of desperation.

Thinking you were scum with Nero wasn't my primary reason to vote you. I voted you on D3 because of your scummy push against Slandaar and only after Nero joined you on his wagon did I start to think you two were scum together. I kept suspecting you because you continued to present arbitrary reasons to justify your actions. I maintain that your alleged theory stances look like excuses to support a scummy agenda rather than them actually informing your reads. These include:
- We have 2 3-man scum teams and only scum would suggest otherwise, used to push Slandaar
- We have two scum within the neighborhoods, one each between my neighborhood and Desperado's, used to push Slandaar and myself, but not Seanald
- Active scum is more dangerous than lurking scum, used to push Nero over Seanald

There is not only a strong trend of you placing bad votes almost exclusively based on theory stances that are at best debatable, but it's clear to me that you change your stripes depending on what suits your purposes at the time.

That's

my primary reason for voting you, and none of it was countered in any way.

On hindsight, I also no longer feel that the plays I thought made you town came from a town mindset. Your wanting time to post final thought was a survival mechanism, since ThAd was going to shoot you during the night, and although you commented on everything else in the game, you purposely held off on delivering any final thoughts whatsoever. If I was town in that position, my primary focus would be getting those final reads out first, followed by commenting on current events. You stalled for the entirety of d3, and in the end, you still didn't deliver any final reads, although I think people had forgotten about it by that point.

Based on memory, I asked for time because it felt like the game was very close to getting to night and I hadn't yet had a chance to formulate my thoughts. As the day went on, I did get a chance to post what at the time was relevant to me and after that it was implicit that I was okay with the day to move on. You were all "welp, I can't do anything because I don't have permission from CTD", which is entirely your problem, not mine.

What you're accusing me of makes zero sense as a "survival mechanism", because it doesn't do anything to improve my chances of not getting shot by ThAd.

I also feel that my initial gut read of the massclaim suggestion was correct in that it was rolefishing. Sure, you eventually came out with reads based off of it, but given the time between the initial call for a massclaim and your analysis, that would have been easy to fake.

This is a silly accusation not only because I've made this exact play several times as town, but also because you generally can't analyze reactions without allowing for time to pass in order for those reactions to actually happen. Why don't we look at the quality of that "easily faked" analysis?
I was right on:
Mac, Thor, fuzzy, ArcAngel, Oversoul, Slandaar, Syryana, EddieFenix
Wrong on:
Nero Cain, Red Ryu
Not wrong on:
Kublai Khan, Seanald

One scum slipped through the cracks, one false positive among the suspects vs. one caught scum, eight accurate town reads. That's pretty fucking solid for a page 30 analysis and a powerful demonstration of how thinking outside the box can lead to scumhunting success.

Looking at your current list of reads, it matches up surprisingly well with that same list I posted nearly 200 pages ago. Switch Ffullisade with HD and there you go. If you had actually looked at the analysis again instead of just throwing accusations at me, you would have recognized it as the great piece of scumhunting that it is.

I also no longer feel that you outing your neighborhood was town driven. You saw an opportunity in Syry's flip, and you essentially threw your neighbor under the bus for towncred, and subsequently suggested this line of investigation, which you are now trying to refute. I think that you saw it as a chance to gain towncred, and as soon as you realized that Syrys' flip wouldn't help you in that regard whatsoever, you quickly withdrew it, which I'm not sure you would if you were town.

Something else that doesn't make any sense as a scum ploy whatsoever. If I get my neighbor lynched based on this line of reasoning, I've just made the case for my own lynch the following day. It does the opposite of garnering towncred. And my neighborhood spec at the time doesn't compare at all to yours, because I had more information to go on or at least I thought I have. I knew I was town in my neighborhood and I thought another town neighbor just flipped. Yes, I made the assumption that there wouldn't be two all-town neighborhoods, but a) the issue became much more complex once we were dealing with 3 neighborhoods and b) you were only willing to go with your assumption on days 3 and 5, but somehow not on D4 when it would have been Seanalds turn under the spotlight.

Finally, the notion that I wouldn't withdraw as town after it was pointed out that I made a factual error is laughable.

I moved my vote off of Nero, because it was close to deadline and no one was willing to lynch Nero with me. To be honest, I would have preferred a Nero lynch, but since no one was willing to vote him, I switched to my other scumread, whose wagon was building up.

By "close to deadline", you of course mean the day before deadline, which we all know from personal experience is the best time to start actually start working towards a lynch.

Okay, someone needs to give me a PV-scum case right now, because, honestly, I'm not seeing it.

I can only speak for myself:
- Involvement in the Rena wagon
- Failure to address concerns about the Rena wagon
- Scummy predecessor
- Play feels generally off (lots of quoting stuff from long ago without doing much to analyze it, little involvement in what's currently going on at any give time, etc.)

[ThAdmiral]

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

That still doesn't explain why PV is more likely to be scum than CTD.

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

OK, but see, Desperado thought his neighbor was scum for specific things, the case in #4038 for one, the change between his scumhunting in the QT N3 and his D4 activity for another. ThAd, as of #4503, PV was a town read for you. He moved into possible scum after your first claimed failed vig shot, but you said you stopped talking about targets with him during that night. At the time, you said your failure to hit meant you were likely blocked and you figured scum blocked you to keep you from hitting CTD. Since if you're telling us the truth in hindsight it's more likely that your target was protected, I can see where you no longer have CTD above PV as scum per se. But nothing you're saying explains why you want PV lynched over CTD or Desperado.

P-edit: ...or, what Bulbazak said.

If pere isn't scum we kill ctd. Simple.

[Baezu]

I have town reads on the PV wagon. Nachomamma8 and ffullisade in particular. What's your argument for PV being the scum that this lynch will remove from the neighborhood pool?

I agree that ffulisade is town- not so sure about nacho.

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

This makes the most sense to me as well.

Pere and CTD could both be scum. Unlikely, but possible.

[penguin_alien]

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

This makes the most sense to me as well.

Pere and CTD could both be scum. Unlikely, but possible.

Unlikely, yes. So why PV over CTD? You started the wagon on him for his jumping on the AK train...which you had done in the post right after his with a even worse jump. Which, by the way, you haven't explained why you wanted to pressure someone you claim is/was a town read.

[Cephrir]

If you guys actually want that case you aren't asking the right people.

If you're just trying to figure out if Baezu is scum, well, she probably is.

You're welcome.

[penguin_alien]

If you guys actually want that case you aren't asking the right people.

If you're just trying to figure out if Baezu is scum, well, she probably is.

You're welcome.

That's why I was asking my town reads Nacho and ffullisade. Although, I'll expand that to asking why you're ready to hammer.

[ffullisade]

If you guys actually want that case you aren't asking the right people.

If you're just trying to figure out if Baezu is scum, well, she probably is.

You're welcome.

That's why I was asking my town reads Nacho and ffullisade. Although, I'll expand that to asking why you're ready to hammer.

mollie and I are unsure at the moment, which is why she unvoted peregrine. My reasons for suspecting him have been based on a combo of his behavior around the Slandaar wagon and partly on ThAd's apparent suspicion of him, but our ThAd read has taken a hit and is currently in a high state of flux. The other part was feeling that CTD's reaction to Syr's cardflip looked so much like paranoid town.

[ThAdmiral]

So why PV over CTD?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway. From my perspective at least.

Why pv over ctd? Because he is more likely of the two to be lynched right now.

[Human Destroyer]

Human Destroyer wanting to jump on ThAd when Rena's flip implies he's not a good lynch for today makes me really uneasy.

1. Are we ignoring the fact that I've wanted the ThAd slot dead since Day 1 now?

2. Weird...I find the Rena flip implicates him as scum, not town. Why do you think otherwise?

[Human Destroyer]

"ThAd is town because there is a scum roleblocker" isn't an argument.

Especially when someone else has claimed roleblocked on the same night as them.

I'm not up for the quote wall, but didn't ThAd say his lack of kill didn't count against his shots this time? Implying the failed kills had different causes? And that he had limited shots in the first place?

<<< That should fix the tags. >>>

you really think mod would telegraph different causes for a kill not going through?

I sure as hell don't. OTOH, with no other claimed X-Shot PRs, the fact that there might be a difference ia fairly easy to fake.

[Human Destroyer]

assuming 3-3

I think nacho is red scum that went for the easy seanald bus, thad is his buddy

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

thad is on like super-survival mode, that x-shot distinction thing is sketchy as fuck, om was fairly sure dan was scum D1, he lacks towniness to a scary degree...omg just kill it already

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

PV I am not confident in my ability to read, I always seem to get it wrong, and I'm lazy, so I'm not even trying there

baezu slot troubles me but maybe it's 4-4 or maybe an SK? if it's 4-4 I'm fucking stumped as to who the last scum is, I'd probably entertain PV at that point tho

I think I'm comfortable with at the very least ctd, ffullisade, and desp, ceph I'm a little less sure of now

ps phoneposting sucks

[Amethyst Kitty]

Bulb is defintely town

why are your reads so fency?

~Mara

[penguin_alien]

Human Destroyer wanting to jump on ThAd when Rena's flip implies he's not a good lynch for today makes me really uneasy.

1. Are we ignoring the fact that I've wanted the ThAd slot dead since Day 1 now?

2. Weird...I find the Rena flip implicates him as scum, not town. Why do you think otherwise?

1. OK...doesn't mean it's town-tunneling.

2. Rena's flip tells us that scum does have the ability to roleblock, as I seriously doubt KK JK'd Rena, nor has anyone suggested such a thing. Town (almost) never lies about being blocked. (yes, I've seen it happen to my extreme annoyance, not relevant here) That night, scum shot KK and AA9. AA9 wasn't active enough to be a serious threat; KK was in a death spiral grip with AK. Maybe scum were PR hunting. But there was a claimed PR right there. Why block and not kill? Hoping town would take her out.

Time out. You're right, this doesn't make sense. Three scenarios: A: ThAd is town, B: ThAd is scum on a team with a roleblocker, C: ThAd is scum on a team without a roleblocker.

A: Scum leaves ThAd free to shoot his target, as neither team apparently cares that he declared he was aiming for CTD. Never mind that this leaves him having confirmed himself. Still, not sure why scum wouldn't kill him before he could go for any of their own people if they were letting him shoot with the hopes that he'd eliminate CTD for them. B: ThAd knows that his team will block Rena. He hopes to 1v1 her on the blocking issue. C: ThAd expects one of the claimed PRs to be dead by Day Four and be able to claim that he was the target of a block if he survives.

What does make me uneasy is that I was questioning all this Day Four, albeit thinking that Rena was opportunistic scum. Yet no one jumped on it, even though last night's kill demonstrates that at least one scum team wanted her dead in the end. It seems like scum could be trying to get us to lynch ThAd for them, like they seem to have tried with Rena.

"ThAd is town because there is a scum roleblocker" isn't an argument.

Especially when someone else has claimed roleblocked on the same night as them.

I'm not up for the quote wall, but didn't ThAd say his lack of kill didn't count against his shots this time? Implying the failed kills had different causes? And that he had limited shots in the first place?

<<< That should fix the tags. >>>

you really think mod would telegraph different causes for a kill not going through?

I sure as hell don't. OTOH, with no other claimed X-Shot PRs, the fact that there might be a difference ia fairly easy to fake.

I had an X-Shot role cop PR as scum once. I made sure to clarify whether it counted against my shots if I was blocked. It didn't. I assume that if I'd ever been blocked, I would have been informed that I didn't use up a shot. I've also seen set-ups where only one town PR was X-shot and others were perpetual. So I do think the mod would have to inform the player in this situation how many shots he has left, but you're also right that it's easy to fake.

assuming 3-3

I think nacho is red scum that went for the easy seanald bus, thad is his buddy

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

thad is on like super-survival mode, that x-shot distinction thing is sketchy as fuck, om was fairly sure dan was scum D1, he lacks towniness to a scary degree...omg just kill it already

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

PV I am not confident in my ability to read, I always seem to get it wrong, and I'm lazy, so I'm not even trying there

baezu slot troubles me but maybe it's 4-4 or maybe an SK? if it's 4-4 I'm fucking stumped as to who the last scum is, I'd probably entertain PV at that point tho

I think I'm comfortable with at the very least ctd, ffullisade, and desp, ceph I'm a little less sure of now

ps phoneposting sucks

UNVOTE: Human Destroyer

HD is approaching this way better than the people piling on PV for the reason of, 'must be scum somewhere in the neighborhoods.' I don't know that I agree that we should lynch ThAd today, but I get the case now, which is more than I can say for the PV lynch. CTD makes some good points, but it seems like most of the other people still on the wagon don't have much more than a plan to fish with dynamite. Which is what scum would want right now. So I'm not so excited about it.

Nacho did say that if we don't get evidence of a scum roleblocker, ThAd should be lynched. Yet Rena's claim of being blocked would seem to indicate one exists. Not sure how to reconcile that.

VOTE: Baezu

For starting the PV wagon with a hypocritical reason and not seeming to care about figuring out where scum is if it's still among the neighborhoods.

[ffullisade]

mollie and I will not be going there PA, because Bacde.

[Bulbazak]

I kept suspecting you because you continued to present arbitrary reasons to justify your actions. I maintain that your alleged theory stances look like excuses to support a scummy agenda rather than them actually informing your reads. These include:
- We have 2 3-man scum teams and only scum would suggest otherwise, used to push Slandaar

I was actually more suspicious about the reasoning behind that statement, which was that he had an above average amount of scumspects, and instead of reconsidering his reads, he just made the leap that there was a large amount of scum. That kind of thinking seems backwards to me, and I couldn't reconcile that with a town mindset.

- We have two scum within the neighborhoods, one each between my neighborhood and Desperado's, used to push Slandaar and myself, but not Seanald

Again, that was not my primary reason for pushing Slandaar. I legitimately thought that Slandaar was scum, making the neighborhood spec more of a supporting argument rather than a primary one. I was so sure that he would flip scum, that it completely caught me off guard when he did not. I wasn't ready to blindly jump into the neighborhoods again after a blow like that.

- Active scum is more dangerous than lurking scum, used to push Nero over Seanald

I still believe that and would have preferred a Nero lynch yesterday.

There is not only a strong trend of you placing bad votes almost exclusively based on theory stances that are at best debatable, but it's clear to me that you change your stripes depending on what suits your purposes at the time.

I believe I've been pretty clear about where I stand. Wanting to take a break and reevaluate is not the same as disregarding what I believe.

Based on memory, I asked for time because it felt like the game was very close to getting to night and I hadn't yet had a chance to formulate my thoughts. As the day went on, I did get a chance to post what at the time was relevant to me and after that it was implicit that I was okay with the day to move on. You were all "welp, I can't do anything because I don't have permission from CTD", which is entirely your problem, not mine.

I'll have that post up tonight so Bulba can place his vote again. Sorry for the delay.

Btw, that post never came. I eventually got tired of waiting for you to help town by giving your final reads, and I also came up with a way to keep you alive. A big controversy got started, you chimed in, and everyone forgot that you had promised a final post. You essentially kept your head down during that period and hoped that people wouldn't notice you. As I said, if you were town, it shouldn't have taken that long to prepare what you said you were going to prepare (the whole reason I unvoted Seanald in the first place: to give you the time you needed). However, you taking

over a week

to prepare such a post is excessive, especially since you only said 1-2 days, and tells me that you never planned on making such a post to begin with.

What you're accusing me of makes zero sense as a "survival mechanism", because it doesn't do anything to improve my chances of not getting shot by ThAd.

But what it does do is buy you time that may result in ThAd deciding to go after someone else, AKA what actually happened.

I also feel that my initial gut read of the massclaim suggestion was correct in that it was rolefishing. Sure, you eventually came out with reads based off of it, but given the time between the initial call for a massclaim and your analysis, that would have been easy to fake.

This is a silly accusation not only because I've made this exact play several times as town, but also because you generally can't analyze reactions without allowing for time to pass in order for those reactions to actually happen.

I was not familiar with your meta, so I was not aware that you tend to do this. I've already withdrawn this point.

you were only willing to go with your assumption on days 3 and 5, but somehow not on D4 when it would have been Seanalds turn under the spotlight.

I've explained this multiple times. I was not ready to blindly jump into the neighborhoods again after the Slandaar lynch.

By "close to deadline", you of course mean the day before deadline, which we all know from personal experience is the best time to start actually start working towards a lynch.

I had actually been looking to consolidate my lynch around Saturday, but the only other wagon was the Rena wagon, who I was not going to vote for. Given that, I kept my vote on Nero, since I still preferred him as a lynch. I moved to Seanald after I noticed that he actually had a wagon, AKA what I said I would do earlier in the day.

If pere isn't scum we kill ctd. Simple.

This is horrible.

Pere and CTD could both be scum. Unlikely, but possible.

I'd actually say extremely unlikely to the point of impossibility.

Why pv over ctd? Because he is more likely of the two to be lynched right now.

That doesn't answer my question. Why is PV more likely to be scum than CTD?

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

also if bluescum dies that isn't a roleblocker, ThAd dies immediately.

Which of these reads takes priority for you, Nacho? Or are they not mutually exclusive?

ThAd read takes priority; doesn't make sense for redscum to have two killstoppers or for bluescum to have two roleblockers, so if we kill bluescum and there's no roleblockers, then ThAd dies instantly. The reads aren't necessarily mutually exclusive: if PV flips redscum, I'll be extremely suspicious of ThAd. If PV flips bluescum then I'd rather sort out the other blue before sorting Thad, if that makes sense.

You seem to be missing a lot actually...

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

First, a SK AND multiball? Seriously? You are seriously suggesting that in a game where we've had 2 kills every night and that there is confirmation of 2 teams, just so you can push your horribad case on me? I'm disappointed...

Second, I've addressed the "lying" point already:

What read? The one that was made when I called you out on lying and you cried about how I was trying to stop discussion...even though we...continued discussing?

I didn't lie. I kept trying to get you to explain your thought process, and you kept refusing to do so and then would attack me for trying to understand your motivation. That's what I find to be scummy.

One of the primary reasons that I have found you scummy all game is that you don't even try to address or counter arguments made against you. You just automatically shout "misrep" or "liar" as a way to discredit what is being said and then try to get people to follow your BS case. This is the main reason why I also have a residual scumread on PA's slot (The BS case on Nacho that Syry so wonderfully dismantled.). I really don't think you're trying and hoping that people will just follow your lead without looking at the arguments too closely.

Finally, that obv-town statement from you is piece of fiction and you know it. We've only been in 2 games together, and at no point in either of those did you call me obv-town. In fact, in Voided I was mislynched by the town, and in Bad Apples you showed extreme suspicion of me up until your cop claim. You also were better logic-wise in those games than you are here. I'm not getting any sense of town HD here (Yes, I know you were scum in Voided. But I'm also considering that you forgot that you were scum in that game, which makes that game more in line with your town meta than scum meta.), and I think town HD would know better than to make a weak argument such as that.

[Cephrir]

I've been reading PV as null-scum most of the game and CTD as town the entire game, is why. Though the latter read is admittedly falling off for me.

ffull, I know about the Bacde thing, I was with you all the way. I've been calling him obvtown the whole game. But there's always room to be wrong about town reads in this game and Baezu scumming the everloving hell out of that slot needs to be taken into consideration. Bacde is the only reason I'm not voting her right now and/or sobbing about the town not being able to see blatant scum right in front of their faces, 'cause honestly I'm not sure she could possibly sound scummier.

There are not two more scum neighbors and anyone suggesting this should be shot.

[ffullisade]

I've been reading PV as null-scum most of the game and CTD as town the entire game, is why. Though the latter read is admittedly falling off for me.

ffull, I know about the Bacde thing, I was with you all the way. I've been calling him obvtown the whole game. But there's always room to be wrong about town reads in this game and Baezu scumming the everloving hell out of that slot needs to be taken into consideration. Bacde is the only reason I'm not voting her right now and/or sobbing about the town not being able to see blatant scum right in front of their faces, 'cause honestly I'm not sure she could possibly sound scummier.

There are not two more scum neighbors and anyone suggesting this should be shot.

Baezu's completed MS games:

vanilla town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29631
vanilla town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=29901
scum - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=28555

I'm curious what you think about the differences in those games and how you think her play in this game look by comparsion.

[Human Destroyer]

Bulb is defintely town

why are your reads so fency?

~Mara

Which ones?
The only ones you could argue I'm fencing on are PV and Baezu really.

And no, Bulb is definitely 100% scum.

Human Destroyer wanting to jump on ThAd when Rena's flip implies he's not a good lynch for today makes me really uneasy.

1. Are we ignoring the fact that I've wanted the ThAd slot dead since Day 1 now?

2. Weird...I find the Rena flip implicates him as scum, not town. Why do you think otherwise?

1. OK...doesn't mean it's town-tunneling.

2. Rena's flip tells us that scum does have the ability to roleblock, as I seriously doubt KK JK'd Rena, nor has anyone suggested such a thing. Town (almost) never lies about being blocked. (yes, I've seen it happen to my extreme annoyance, not relevant here) That night, scum shot KK and AA9. AA9 wasn't active enough to be a serious threat; KK was in a death spiral grip with AK. Maybe scum were PR hunting. But there was a claimed PR right there. Why block and not kill? Hoping town would take her out.

1. I'm aware, but you're presenting the situation as if I didn't think ThAd is scum until suddenly "OMG Rena died kill it!"

2. Okay but that still doesn't explain how both were roleblocked at the same time.

Time out. You're right, this doesn't make sense. Three scenarios: A: ThAd is town, B: ThAd is scum on a team with a roleblocker, C: ThAd is scum on a team without a roleblocker.

A: Scum leaves ThAd free to shoot his target, as neither team apparently cares that he declared he was aiming for CTD. Never mind that this leaves him having confirmed himself. Still, not sure why scum wouldn't kill him before he could go for any of their own people if they were letting him shoot with the hopes that he'd eliminate CTD for them. B: ThAd knows that his team will block Rena. He hopes to 1v1 her on the blocking issue. C: ThAd expects one of the claimed PRs to be dead by Day Four and be able to claim that he was the target of a block if he survives.

What does make me uneasy is that I was questioning all this Day Four, albeit thinking that Rena was opportunistic scum. Yet no one jumped on it, even though last night's kill demonstrates that at least one scum team wanted her dead in the end. It seems like scum could be trying to get us to lynch ThAd for them, like they seem to have tried with Rena.

A. Roleblocking works just as well? This doesn't really explain a) how both Rena and ThAd were roleblocked (I'm assuming she made the correct move and didn't lie here) or b) why scum are killing random players to find VTs. If scum is going PR fishing, killing the claimed PRs makes a ton more sense than what they've been doing.

B. Alternatively, he IS the roleblocker. I'm not sure how likely that is though.

C. But they weren't and he still claimed it? I don't think it works then...

"ThAd is town because there is a scum roleblocker" isn't an argument.

Especially when someone else has claimed roleblocked on the same night as them.

I'm not up for the quote wall, but didn't ThAd say his lack of kill didn't count against his shots this time? Implying the failed kills had different causes? And that he had limited shots in the first place?

<<< That should fix the tags. >>>

you really think mod would telegraph different causes for a kill not going through?

I sure as hell don't. OTOH, with no other claimed X-Shot PRs, the fact that there might be a difference ia fairly easy to fake.

I had an X-Shot role cop PR as scum once. I made sure to clarify whether it counted against my shots if I was blocked. It didn't. I assume that if I'd ever been blocked, I would have been informed that I didn't use up a shot. I've also seen set-ups where only one town PR was X-shot and others were perpetual. So I do think the mod would have to inform the player in this situation how many shots he has left, but you're also right that it's easy to fake.

Hm...

@Mod: In a theoretical situation where there is an X-Shot Vigilante, would he lose a shot if his target was protected? If he was roleblocked?

<<< Question answered in post 5664. >>>

assuming 3-3

I think nacho is red scum that went for the easy seanald bus, thad is his buddy

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

thad is on like super-survival mode, that x-shot distinction thing is sketchy as fuck, om was fairly sure dan was scum D1, he lacks towniness to a scary degree...omg just kill it already

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

PV I am not confident in my ability to read, I always seem to get it wrong, and I'm lazy, so I'm not even trying there

baezu slot troubles me but maybe it's 4-4 or maybe an SK? if it's 4-4 I'm fucking stumped as to who the last scum is, I'd probably entertain PV at that point tho

I think I'm comfortable with at the very least ctd, ffullisade, and desp, ceph I'm a little less sure of now

ps phoneposting sucks

UNVOTE: Human Destroyer

HD is approaching this way better than the people piling on PV for the reason of, 'must be scum somewhere in the neighborhoods.' I don't know that I agree that we should lynch ThAd today, but I get the case now, which is more than I can say for the PV lynch. CTD makes some good points, but it seems like most of the other people still on the wagon don't have much more than a plan to fish with dynamite. Which is what scum would want right now. So I'm not so excited about it.

I'm approaching it better by saying I'm not trying to read him???

Nacho did say that if we don't get evidence of a scum roleblocker, ThAd should be lynched. Yet Rena's claim of being blocked would seem to indicate one exists. Not sure how to reconcile that.

VOTE: Baezu

For starting the PV wagon with a hypocritical reason and not seeming to care about figuring out where scum is if it's still among the neighborhoods.

It means Nacho is scum that doesn't want to follow through.

mollie and I will not be going there PA, because Bacde.

Funny, I actually thought Bacde was getting pretty scummy later on. I'm not sure why you think he was such a paragon of town?

[Human Destroyer]

You seem to be missing a lot actually...

Oh, I know there's stuff from yesterday.

But what happened to all that stuff today, with Rena actually dead and flipped town? Where's the follow-through on his statements?

[Human Destroyer]

First, a SK AND multiball? Seriously? You are seriously suggesting that in a game where we've had 2 kills every night and that there is confirmation of 2 teams, just so you can push your horribad case on me? I'm disappointed...

I've seen SK + multiball before, at the very least, on a different site.

Your kill count thing is actually a fair point though, I concede that.

One of the primary reasons that I have found you scummy all game is that you don't even try to address or counter arguments made against you. You just automatically shout "misrep" or "liar" as a way to discredit what is being said and then try to get people to follow your BS case. This is the main reason why I also have a residual scumread on PA's slot (The BS case on Nacho that Syry so wonderfully dismantled.). I really don't think you're trying and hoping that people will just follow your lead without looking at the arguments too closely.

Firstly (regarding your quote above this that I forgot to address), it's funny because that's not what you asked me at all. You asked me what I thought about ThAd and how it related to your alignment, not what my "thought processes" are. I mean don't get me wrong, you put the words "thought process" in there...but it isn't what you were asking. Not at fucking all.

You'll have to show me these counter arguments I don't appear to be answering, cause I don't really see them.
Hint: Repeating the same, addressed point over and over and saying it slightly differently is NOT a new counter-argument.

Finally, that obv-town statement from you is piece of fiction and you know it. We've only been in 2 games together, and at no point in either of those did you call me obv-town. In fact, in Voided I was mislynched by the town, and in Bad Apples you showed extreme suspicion of me up until your cop claim. You also were better logic-wise in those games than you are here. I'm not getting any sense of town HD here (Yes, I know you were scum in Voided. But I'm also considering that you forgot that you were scum in that game, which makes that game more in line with your town meta than scum meta.), and I think town HD would know better than to make a weak argument such as that.

What the fuck?

In voided you were obv-town and I was fighting against your lynch like crazy. Did you forget this already?

Bad Apples I also remember you being one of my strong townreads so...what up? I'll check it again if it's really that fething important, but I like to think I know when you're fething town.