NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

mastin2 · Post Post #5100 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:39 am

One-Hundred-Twenty-Eighth Votecount

:

(Tenth Votecount of Day Four,

AKA, the "Productive posting!" votecount.

)

Bulbazak - 5 (Nero Cain, ThAdmiral, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Desperado)

PeregrineV - 2 (Nachomamma8, Cephrir)

ThAdmiral - 2 (Human Destroyer, Bacde)
Nero Cain - 1 (Bulbazak)
Rena - 1 (ffullisade)
Cephrir - 1 (PeregrineV)

Not Voting - 3 (Rena, Amethyst Kitty, penguin_alien)

With

15

alive, it's

8

to lynch.

Day Four's deadline is Wednesday, July 31st, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-07-31 12:30:00).

Spoiler: Changes from last votecount

Last votecount was page 204, post 5077.

Spoiler: Player Vote History D4

Spoiler: Vote History D4

ffullisade · Post Post #5101 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:02 am

In post 5098, PeregrineV wrote:
5095
- You could speed it up and tell me which part you think is wrong

I voted you for two reasons: trying to herd votes onto slandaar and because ThAd looks like he distrusts you. Not merely because you wanted to lynch Slandaar.

5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.

I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-

Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.

ISO · Post Post #5102 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:09 am

note to self: reread bulba's argument with nero cain because of reasons

PeregrineV · Post Post #5103 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:11 am

In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:
5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.
I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-
Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.

I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.

Desperado · Post Post #5104 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:12 am

So...everything points to Thad's claim be fake but you're going to trust your initial impressions anyway?

Desperado · Post Post #5105 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:13 am

In post 5103, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:
5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.
I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-
Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.
I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.

Like I don't think you meant to do it but this is the best case for Thadscum that's been presented all game.

ffullisade · Post Post #5106 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:16 am

In post 5103, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:
5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.
I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-
Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.
I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.

Where on day 4 did you first allude to these misgivings?

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.

Your version of simplification is highly and I believe deliberately inaccurate. I'd break out the "m" word but it's overused to the point of meaninglessness.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5107 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:21 am

In post 5104, Desperado wrote:So...everything points to Thad's claim be fake but you're going to trust your initial impressions anyway?

The revelation in the QT seemed sincere, and I could see not shooting the first few days. So far, nothing has concretely pointed to his claim being fake & Overoul's role adds to legitimacy, so yes.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5108 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:25 am

In post 5106, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5103, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:
5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.
I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-
Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.
I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.
Where on day 4 did you first allude to these misgivings?

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.
Your version of simplification is highly and I believe deliberately inaccurate. I'd break out the "m" word but it's overused to the point of meaninglessness.

4867

So are you also objecting to my attempts to get you to simplify and clarify? Apparently you want me to use the question-answer-question technique since you're not exactly being clear with your answers.
So, which part is inaccurate?

ffullisade · Post Post #5109 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:55 am

In post 5108, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5106, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5103, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:
5096
- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.
I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097
-
Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.
I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.
Where on day 4 did you first allude to these misgivings?

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.
Your version of simplification is highly and I believe deliberately inaccurate. I'd break out the "m" word but it's overused to the point of meaninglessness.
4867

So are you also objecting to my attempts to get you to simplify and clarify? Apparently you want me to use the question-answer-question technique since you're not exactly being clear with your answers.
So, which part is inaccurate?

I am objecting to your oversimplifications because they have been inaccurate. My post 5101 is a clear and accurate correction of yours.

I can see a town motivation in trying to clarify things. I cannot see a town motivation in simplifying things to the point where they are obviously wrong. Your trust=townread/mistrust=scumread=vig-kill is an example of simplifying to the point of being obviously wrong. As was your statement that I voted you because you wanted to lynch Slandaar.

ffullisade · Post Post #5110 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:01 am

Nacho, you around?

PeregrineV · Post Post #5111 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:09 am

In post 5099, mastin2 wrote:I'll see if I can make something productive out of this post.

Mastin's summary of this game:

21 Nice town, I'll take it.
14 (Crowd) Start the game already!
13 Sure, blame it on your isp.

12 Ack! Bein' rushed!
22 Quit posting!
7 Ahhhhhh!
16 Enemy sighted!
9 Ooooohhhh.
11 *Laugh*

24 (Heavy Brittish accent) Dadgum.
26 (frantic) The wonder, the wonderthewonderthe--noooooo!
22 Quit posting!
30 Wololo...
27 You played 200 hours to die like
this
?!?
28 (Laughing, course voice) You should see ze oder threads.

15 Don't point at me...
17 (It is good to be the mod.)

You're the mod in this game....

PeregrineV · Post Post #5112 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:12 am

In post 4953, ffullisade wrote:Your Slandaar case in this post are crappy reasons to want someone lynched, and crappy reasons for appealing to other players to move their votes.

In post 5091, PeregrineV wrote:Me: Lynch Slandaar not Bulb.
You: You wanted to lynch Slandaar, you must be scum....
Me: If I'm scum, what does that tell you about Bulb
You: I didn't vote you for not wanting to lynch Bulb, you brought it up.
Me (now): But, if you are voting me for scum, then I am either buddying town-Bulb or protecting scum-Bulb. And since I distinctly wanted a Slandaar lynch instead of a Bulb lynch, and you are now stating that my desire for a Slandaar lynch makes me scum, then you have to have an opinion on Bulb, whose lynch I did NOT want.

In post 5101, ffullisade wrote:I voted you for two reasons: trying to herd votes onto slandaar and because ThAd looks like he distrusts you. Not merely because you wanted to lynch Slandaar.

Don't think I'm wrong about your reasons- it looks like they changed.

ffullisade wrote:I am objecting to your oversimplifications because they have been inaccurate. My post 5101 is a clear and accurate correction of yours.

I can see a town motivation in trying to clarify things. I cannot see a town motivation in simplifying things to the point where they are obviously wrong. Your trust=townread/mistrust=scumread=vig-kill is an example of simplifying to the point of being obviously wrong. As was your statement that I voted you because you wanted to lynch Slandaar.

How can I simplify something to the point that it's wrong?

Desperado · Post Post #5113 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:18 am

By eliminating nuance.

ffullisade · Post Post #5114 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:20 am

My first post to you Day 4.

In post 4895, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4773, PeregrineV wrote:The fact that neither of these are reaching full majority bugs me.

@Mastin- I hate deadline lynches. Just so you know.

<<< Would you rather have a failure to reach majority result in a no-lynch today? How 'bout day one? This game's long enough as it is already, no-lynching would make it go on for even longer. Plus...If you couldn't tell...I hate deadline no-lynches, just so you know. >>>

@Slandaar-I searched your Iso for "Crash" and "CTD" and QT, just to see if you mentioned anything regarding it.
You didn't, except to say Crash is town a few times.

Since I don't know why you feel this way, it's either real, or artificial.

Since your cases on other players seem artificial, this townread is looking the same way too. How is it not "worth" your time to explain why your neighbor is town?

Requesting ThAd, ArcAngel, Bacde or Desp moves their vote to Slandaar.
Hey Peregrine why were you working so hard to herd votes onto Slandaar yesterday?

- f

My first post to ThAd day 4.

In post 4896, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4867, PeregrineV wrote:Was less than pleased with QT last night. Bulba was not my first choice for a bullet.

But, we are now divining the setup to be 2 scumteams, each with a roleblocker, that each managed to block a PR without doubling up on either?

I think that's stretching it somewhat.

Vote: Nachomamma
ThAd, possible suggestion for next time you take a shot.

Don't discuss your target on the QT.

I have a bad feeling about Perigrine.

- f

You've continually recast my reasons as "because you wanted to lynch Slandaar" rather than "because you tried to herd votes onto Slandaar."

You know that is false. So stop repeating it.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5115 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:21 am

In post 5113, Desperado wrote:By eliminating nuance.

I guess I can see that, but

1. I don't think I did that.
2. If you attempt nuance in forum mafia, expect to be called out on it.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #5116 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:22 am

In post 5010, Desperado wrote:CTD, which would be more incriminating for the other IYO: a Nero scum flip or a Bulb scum flip?

Bulba scumflip should seal the deal on Nero Cain considering where his vote was yesterday (and his reasoning for being there).

---------------------------

In post 5017, Rena wrote:
CTD wrote:I think it's hilarious that you're questioning the fact that I moved my vote off of you and onto the guy you're trying to lynch tough.
Why? I've always considered that a town tell. If Nero was worried about Bulba being lynched after you put your vote on him, he would have unvoted. Instead he's analysing other peoples votes on that wagon.

Please tell me that's not the only thing you've taken away from my post, you've managed to quote about the least important sentence from it. To say that he's analyzing my vote against Bulba is a stretch. To call such a throwaway question a town tell in the face of everything else he's done is a bigger stretch. Aren't you the least bit bothered by his play as outlined in the rest of my post?

What's your read on Bulba?

--------------------------

In post 5061, Bulbazak wrote:I was burned yesterday after being so sure that Slandaar would flip scum. I'm not too keen to stick my hand back in the fire today. Also, between the two, Nero is the more social threat, while all Seanald does is lurk, sheep, and occasionally stir the pot.

Does your scumread on Seanald stem solely from your neighborhood spec? This is something that's bothering me about your list of reads, it still seems to be informed heavily by your neighborhood theory but you're not willing to vote according to said theory, which is giving you an awful lot of gray area inbetween what you say and what you do.

Also, your argument here that Seanald is the more harmless out of the two reads as a rather cheap excuse to me, considering how paramount his flip allegedly is for several of your other reads. I don't even know what "social threat" is supposed to mean here.

-----------------------

Ffullisade, it seems to me like your case against PV largely depends on Bulba flipping scum. At least your primary reason for suspecting him (herding votes onto Slandaar) does in my opinion. Please consider moving your vote there.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5117 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:25 am

In post 5114, ffullisade wrote:You've continually recast my reasons as "because you wanted to lynch Slandaar" rather than "because you tried to herd votes onto Slandaar."

So I was attempting to herd votes on Slandaar to NOT get him lynched?

Finish this sentence "because you tried to herd votes onto Slandaar" because _____________________.

ffullisade · Post Post #5118 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:35 am

In post 5117, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5114, ffullisade wrote:You've continually recast my reasons as "because you wanted to lynch Slandaar" rather than "because you tried to herd votes onto Slandaar."
So I was attempting to herd votes on Slandaar to NOT get him lynched?

Finish this sentence "because you tried to herd votes onto Slandaar" because _____________________.

1. A number of players voted him, made cases and wanted to get him lynched.

2. You voted him, made cases and wanted to get him lynched.

2a. You called players out and asked them to move their votes to him.

3. My vote is on you, not one of the other players who voted him, made cases and wanted to get him lynched.

----------------------------

Nacho, I think I've seen enough. Do you have meta to the effect that peregrine acts dumb as a post as town when someone puts a vote on him?

Bulbazak · Post Post #5119 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:37 am

In post 5116, CrashTextDummie wrote: Does your scumread on Seanald stem solely from your neighborhood spec?

No, I've been suspecting him since his IIoA on d2, where he didn't come up with any reads until

after

I pointed it out.

In post 5116, CrashTextDummie wrote: Also, your argument here that Seanald is the more harmless out of the two reads as a rather cheap excuse to me, considering how paramount his flip allegedly is for several of your other reads.

His flip would only be paramount in substantiating my neighborhood spec. As far as actual reads, his flip really doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things.

In post 5116, CrashTextDummie wrote: I don't even know what "social threat" is supposed to mean here.

Nero is more active than Seanald, and therefore more influential and harmful to town. He's also the most likely to get away if not pressed. Seanald has no original thought of his own, which means he is not harming the town to the extent that Nero is. Seanald can wait. Nero needs to be lynched.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #5120 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:55 am

Bulba, you said you didn't want to poke into the neighborhoods unless there were legitimately reasons to suspect someone:

In post 4912, Bulbazak wrote:There's a small voice in the back of my mind that keeps whispering to me about my neighborhood speculation, which if we find scum in the neighborhoods I still stand by. However, after Slandaar's flip, I really don't want to go aimlessly poking around in the neighborhoods for the sole reason of proving my theory. I want to find scum for actual scummy reasons, not just theory. Therefore, if we go after one of the neighbors for legitimately scummy reasons, and they flip scum, only then will I evaluate given my theory, but until then, it's too dangerous to try on that reason alone, making it more in line with a policy lynch, which I'm not especially a fan of.

You claim to have legitimate reasons to suspect Seanald, but when asked why you're not going after him you said:

In post 5061, Bulbazak wrote:I was burned yesterday after being so sure that Slandaar would flip scum. I'm not too keen to stick my hand back in the fire today.

Which seems rather contradictory to me.

Bulbazak wrote:Nero is more active than Seanald, and therefore more influential and harmful to town. He's also the most likely to get away if not pressed. Seanald has no original thought of his own, which means he is not harming the town to the extent that Nero is. Seanald can wait. Nero needs to be lynched.

Why is someone who's active more harmful to town than a scummy lurker? Someone who's sheeping a harmful wagon is just as bad for the town as someone who's creating and pushing a harmful wagon. Seanald was voting you at the end of yesterday and he's voting you now, so if you were town, you of all people should have some perspective of how harmful he's being.

Your argument for why Nero needs to be lynched before Seanald quite frankly doesn't make any sense.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #5121 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:55 am

Ffullisade, I'm quoting this because I think you might have missed it:

In post 5116, CrashTextDummie wrote:Ffullisade, it seems to me like your case against PV largely depends on Bulba flipping scum. At least your primary reason for suspecting him (herding votes onto Slandaar) does in my opinion. Please consider moving your vote there.

Bulbazak · Post Post #5122 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:05 pm

In post 5120, CrashTextDummie wrote:Bulba, you said you didn't want to poke into the neighborhoods unless there were legitimately reasons to suspect someone:

In post 4912, Bulbazak wrote:There's a small voice in the back of my mind that keeps whispering to me about my neighborhood speculation, which if we find scum in the neighborhoods I still stand by. However, after Slandaar's flip, I really don't want to go aimlessly poking around in the neighborhoods for the sole reason of proving my theory. I want to find scum for actual scummy reasons, not just theory. Therefore, if we go after one of the neighbors for legitimately scummy reasons, and they flip scum, only then will I evaluate given my theory, but until then, it's too dangerous to try on that reason alone, making it more in line with a policy lynch, which I'm not especially a fan of.
You claim to have legitimate reasons to suspect Seanald, but when asked why you're not going after him you said:

In post 5061, Bulbazak wrote:I was burned yesterday after being so sure that Slandaar would flip scum. I'm not too keen to stick my hand back in the fire today.
Which seems rather contradictory to me.

Bulbazak wrote:Nero is more active than Seanald, and therefore more influential and harmful to town. He's also the most likely to get away if not pressed. Seanald has no original thought of his own, which means he is not harming the town to the extent that Nero is. Seanald can wait. Nero needs to be lynched.
Why is someone who's active more harmful to town than a scummy lurker? Someone who's sheeping a harmful wagon is just as bad for the town as someone who's creating and pushing a harmful wagon. Seanald was voting you at the end of yesterday and he's voting you now, so if you were town, you of all people should have some perspective of how harmful he's being.

Your argument for why Nero needs to be lynched before Seanald quite frankly doesn't make any sense.

Since when is lurking scum more dangerous to the town than scum that makes waves? Nero can do more damage with his influence than Seanald can, because all Seanald is doing is following others and staying in the shadows. Lurking scum can be countered effectively if identified. Scum such as Nero is more difficult to take care of, because they act like an infection in the entire organism. The longer it takes to get them out, the more townies they take with them. Nero-scum needs to be lynched as soon as possible, or he will never be taken care of, and town will go into endgame with his hand grasped firmly around their throats.

And it's not contradictory to not want to mess around with the neigborhoods again after being burnt badly the previous day, regardless of my read on Seanald. I was sure about my read on Slandaar as well, and look what happened. I'm not keen in going back and revisiting that blunder the next day by diving into the neighborhoods again.

The best analogy would probably be getting in a car accident. You are not exactly gung-ho the next day about getting behind the wheel again. I want to take care of Nero today, and after that, I'll revisit Seanald and the neighborhoods.

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #5123 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:11 pm

could someone be an angel and give me the neighborhood pairings?

<<< The only Angel in this town died last night. Geez, doesn't anybody read the flavor?

>>>

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #5124 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:22 pm

Cephrir
PeregrineV (DLG)
penguin_alien (Baby Spice)
Seanald
Rena(/Haylen) (fuzzybutternut)

all remaining scum is somewhere in this group I think