NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

Bulbazak · Post Post #5075 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:44 pm

In post 5073, Desperado wrote:
In post 5072, Bulbazak wrote:Completely making what up? I thought you had legitimately dropped your Seanald-scum read, as I had expected you to push it hard today given your zeal for it yesterday.
You said "What did Seanald say to you last night to make him a townread today?"

^That's you making something up. Why would you ask the question like that rather than just ask me straight up what I think about him now? You brought it up in an accusatory manner like you'd caught me with my pants down, which doesn't make any sense since you think I'm town.

You were really gung-ho about a Seanald lynch yesterday. I expected you to carry that through into today, but you sort of dropped it. I assumed that meant you no longer thought he was scum, and since there was no indication of you changing your mind in thread, I just figured Seanald said something in your neighborhood QT that changed your read. Hence why I asked what he said. I was not making anything up. It was just the natural conclusion to my line of reasoning, and I was curious why you had changed your mind.

In post 5075, Nachomamma8 wrote: I talked about vig in a neighborhood with a vig a while ago. What did you think of that reasoning?

I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #5076 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:47 pm

In post 5076, Bulbazak wrote:I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.

If they successfully manipulate. Vig has two chances to catch them out before they can do that: in thread and in QT.

mastin2 · Post Post #5077 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:48 pm

One-Hundred-Twenty-Seventh Votecount

:

(Ninth Votecount of Day Four,

AKA, the "AP wasted all of the good numbers, now I have nothing witty." votecount.

)

Bulbazak - 5 (Nero Cain, ThAdmiral, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Desperado)

PeregrineV - 2 (Nachomamma8, Cephrir)

ThAdmiral - 2 (Human Destroyer, Bacde)
Nero Cain - 1 (Bulbazak)
Rena - 1 (ffullisade)
Cephrir - 1 (PeregrineV)

Not Voting - 3 (Rena, Amethyst Kitty, penguin_alien)

With

15

alive, it's

8

to lynch.

Day Four's deadline is Wednesday, July 31st, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-07-31 12:30:00).

Spoiler: Changes from last votecount

Last votecount was page 203, post 5057.

Spoiler: Player Vote History D4

Spoiler: Vote History D4

ThAdmiral · Post Post #5078 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:05 pm

In post 5059, Desperado wrote:I did read the first post. I was there, and I didn't take it sarcastically at the time at all.

And why would that make you dumb mafia? Has anyone indicated they'd be interested in lynching within a neighborhood that already has a scum flip from it?

In post 5060, Cephrir wrote:The location of that smiley does not imply sarcasm.

Even if you're town I think you're bullshitting this to sound better.

Well it fucking was sarcasm, I don't really know what else to say here.

Wait. Let me get this straight - you think I was actually saying that I believed 2 scum from the same team claiming neighbor would literally be "the best scum play of all time"?

"THE BEST SCUM PLAY OF ALL TIME"

come on

Bulbazak · Post Post #5079 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:06 pm

In post 5076, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 5076, Bulbazak wrote:I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.
If they successfully manipulate. Vig has two chances to catch them out before they can do that: in thread and in QT.

What about the other team?

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #5080 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:20 pm

In post 5079, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 5076, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 5076, Bulbazak wrote:I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.
If they successfully manipulate. Vig has two chances to catch them out before they can do that: in thread and in QT.
What about the other team?

maybe in a neighborhood with a PR
maybe not in such a high risk neighborhood

Bulbazak · Post Post #5081 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:25 pm

I'm still not seeing it. Can you give me a concise summary of the PV case?

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #5082 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:31 pm

In post 5038, Nachomamma8 wrote:Peregrine, my original accusation on you was for "active lurking" as I know you have a tendency to do as we discovered in Dark Souls. There's the addition of that hard OMGUS (which is not a scumtell usually, but again, Dark Souls and I know you are a better player than that) where you began to suspect me immediately after I started pushing on you and not a moment before (ThAd's input on when Peregrine started pushing for me to die would be great), but in thread you started suspecting me after I started pushing you, which is pretty much a mirror to that beautiful, wonderful Dark Souls. I don't like you picking up on Bacde's push of me when it suits you because you ignored that COMPLETELY before (seriously, why are you just picking up on this now?), and I think your case on me is shallow as fuck and made more out of a place of necessity as opposed to "oh hey, Nacho is actually scum" based on it being composed of "Nacho has been useless" which is obviously wrong, sheeping off a Bacde case that you ignored before, and then a couple things from my case on you and nothing in the pages and pages I've produced before then.

ffullisade · Post Post #5083 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:38 pm

In post 4985, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote:4888 is Mollie. 4960 is me, as are the posts addressed to you from my question about your herding votes to the slandaar wagon.
Herding votes. Nice.
How many votes were a direct result of my "herding"?

It's not what you accomplished. It's what you attempted, and what it reveals about your motivation.

What does this tell you about my alignment in relation to Bulba?

That's a really interesting question. I wonder how easy it would have been to talk ThAd into targeting Slandaar.

In post 4982, ffullisade wrote: You don't have ThAd's trust. That came through in his posts. He has more basis for reading your alignment than anyone else in the game. At least one of these neighborhoods should have a scum component. I think this is one and I think you are the scum.

Which post indicates ThAd thinks I am not town.

The posts that indicate you don't have his trust are the ones where he said he stopped discussing his kill with you on your QT before he settled on his target.

If that's the case, why would he not shoot me?

As a vig, on your own, lack of trust may not line up with a strong enough scum read to take a shot at someone.

Bulbazak · Post Post #5084 (ISO) » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:46 pm

Nacho, how strong is your PV scumread on a scale of MasterMew to RayFrost?

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #5085 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:01 am

In post 5084, Bulbazak wrote:Nacho, how strong is your PV scumread on a scale of MasterMew to RayFrost?

Ask me after his exchange with ff is finished.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5086 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:03 am

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4985, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote:4888 is Mollie. 4960 is me, as are the posts addressed to you from my question about your herding votes to the slandaar wagon.
Herding votes. Nice.
How many votes were a direct result of my "herding"?
It's not what you accomplished. It's what you attempted, and what it reveals about your motivation.

You mean my directly stated motivation of wanting Slandaar lynched over Bulb?

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
What does this tell you about my alignment in relation to Bulba?
That's a really interesting question. I wonder how easy it would have been to talk ThAd into targeting Slandaar.

Not sure of the relevance of this statement regarding your vote on me.
Slandaar was dead. I doubt ThaD would shoot him.

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote: You don't have ThAd's trust. That came through in his posts. He has more basis for reading your alignment than anyone else in the game. At least one of these neighborhoods should have a scum component. I think this is one and I think you are the scum.

Which post indicates ThAd thinks I am not town.
The posts that indicate you don't have his trust are the ones where he said he stopped discussing his kill with you on your QT before he settled on his target.

We're neightbors not masons, so I don;t expect discussing of kill targets, but I did expect discussion of reads, and discussion of my choice of kill targets.

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
If that's the case, why would he not shoot me?
As a vig, on your own, lack of trust may not line up with a strong enough scum read to take a shot at someone.

So he doesn't trust me, but still thinks I'm town?

PeregrineV · Post Post #5087 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:04 am

In post 5085, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 5084, Bulbazak wrote:Nacho, how strong is your PV scumread on a scale of MasterMew to RayFrost?
Ask me after his exchange with ff is finished.

Talk a walk in the future, meanwhile.

Your new reads if:
1)I flip red scum
2)I flip blue scum
3)I flip town

ffullisade · Post Post #5088 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:11 am

In post 5086, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4985, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote:4888 is Mollie. 4960 is me, as are the posts addressed to you from my question about your herding votes to the slandaar wagon.
Herding votes. Nice.
How many votes were a direct result of my "herding"?
It's not what you accomplished. It's what you attempted, and what it reveals about your motivation.
You mean my directly stated motivation of wanting Slandaar lynched over Bulb?

Yes.

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
What does this tell you about my alignment in relation to Bulba?
That's a really interesting question. I wonder how easy it would have been to talk ThAd into targeting Slandaar.
Not sure of the relevance of this statement regarding your vote on me.

You brought it up. It had nothing to do with our vote on you.

Slandaar was dead. I doubt ThaD would shoot him.

hypothetical

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote: You don't have ThAd's trust. That came through in his posts. He has more basis for reading your alignment than anyone else in the game. At least one of these neighborhoods should have a scum component. I think this is one and I think you are the scum.

Which post indicates ThAd thinks I am not town.
The posts that indicate you don't have his trust are the ones where he said he stopped discussing his kill with you on your QT before he settled on his target.
We're neightbors not masons, so I don;t expect discussing of kill targets, but I did expect discussion of reads, and discussion of my choice of kill targets.

This looks like a distinction without a difference, unless I'm missing something.

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
If that's the case, why would he not shoot me?
As a vig, on your own, lack of trust may not line up with a strong enough scum read to take a shot at someone.
So he doesn't trust me, but still thinks I'm town?

In your universe are reads always binary?

Bulbazak · Post Post #5089 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:30 am

@Naco: Thoughts on Nero?

PeregrineV · Post Post #5090 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:44 am

In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4985, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote:
4888 is Mollie. 4960 is me, as are the posts addressed to you from my question about your herding votes to the slandaar wagon.
Herding votes. Nice.
How many votes were a direct result of my "herding"?

It's not what you accomplished. It's what you attempted, and what it reveals about your motivation.

This was explicit motivation stated by multiple people. What makes me more suspect because of it?

PeregrineV · Post Post #5091 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:46 am

In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
What does this tell you about my alignment in relation to Bulba?
That's a really interesting question. I wonder how easy it would have been to talk ThAd into targeting Slandaar.
Not sure of the relevance of this statement regarding your vote on me.
You brought it up. It had nothing to do with our vote on you.

Me: Lynch Slandaar not Bulb.
You: You wanted to lynch Slandaar, you must be scum....
Me: If I'm scum, what does that tell you about Bulb
You: I didn't vote you for not wanting to lynch Bulb, you brought it up.
Me (now): But, if you are voting me for scum, then I am either buddying town-Bulb or protecting scum-Bulb. And since I distinctly wanted a Slandaar lynch instead of a Bulb lynch, and you are now stating that my desire for a Slandaar lynch makes me scum, then you have to have an opinion on Bulb, whose lynch I did NOT want.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5092 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:49 am

In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:This looks like a distinction without a difference, unless I'm missing something.

There is a difference. We could have discussed reads, and in the end I would make the assumption he would shoot a scumread, or even possibly a null read, without him ever saying a word about who he planned to shoot. He could have even thrown in a strong townread, called them scum, just to see my reaction.
So yes, there is a difference.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5093 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:51 am

In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
If that's the case, why would he not shoot me?
As a vig, on your own, lack of trust may not line up with a strong enough scum read to take a shot at someone.
So he doesn't trust me, but still thinks I'm town?
In your universe are reads always binary?

In mafia games with town and mafia, then yes, they usually end up binary.
Trust indicates alignment.

ffullisade · Post Post #5094 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:55 am

In post 5090, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4985, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 4982, ffullisade wrote:
4888 is Mollie. 4960 is me, as are the posts addressed to you from my question about your herding votes to the slandaar wagon.
Herding votes. Nice.
How many votes were a direct result of my "herding"?

It's not what you accomplished. It's what you attempted, and what it reveals about your motivation.
This was explicit motivation stated by multiple people. What makes me more suspect because of it?

An explicit motivation stated by multiple people who used their votes and continued to throw cases into the air. What you did was different. You called out specific people and pressured them to change their votes.

I've seen this done in games where there are lots of onesie and twosie wagons, but the pressure has always been for players to make their vote meaningful by consolidating onto one of the viable wagons. What you did is different, and it stood out against the other movements in the game at that point. My only question, really is if a scum player would make such a blatant move to swing a wagon.

ffullisade · Post Post #5095 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:56 am

In post 5091, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
What does this tell you about my alignment in relation to Bulba?
That's a really interesting question. I wonder how easy it would have been to talk ThAd into targeting Slandaar.
Not sure of the relevance of this statement regarding your vote on me.
You brought it up. It had nothing to do with our vote on you.
Me: Lynch Slandaar not Bulb.
You: You wanted to lynch Slandaar, you must be scum....
Me: If I'm scum, what does that tell you about Bulb
You: I didn't vote you for not wanting to lynch Bulb, you brought it up.
Me (now): But, if you are voting me for scum, then I am either buddying town-Bulb or protecting scum-Bulb. And since I distinctly wanted a Slandaar lynch instead of a Bulb lynch, and you are now stating that my desire for a Slandaar lynch makes me scum, then you have to have an opinion on Bulb, whose lynch I did NOT want.

See if you can figure out what is wrong with your paraphrasing of my part.

ffullisade · Post Post #5096 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:08 am

In post 5092, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:This looks like a distinction without a difference, unless I'm missing something.
There is a difference. We could have discussed reads, and in the end I would make the assumption he would shoot a scumread, or even possibly a null read, without him ever saying a word about who he planned to shoot. He could have even thrown in a strong townread, called them scum, just to see my reaction.
So yes, there is a difference.

From your perspective in the conversation there would be no difference. Where he went with the info later would be opaque to you.

Confidante of the vig is an extremely powerful place for scum to be. Nervewracking, burnout-inducing, and hiatus-invoking. But, powerful. I've been there.

ffullisade · Post Post #5097 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:11 am

In post 5093, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 5088, ffullisade wrote:
In post 5083, ffullisade wrote:
If that's the case, why would he not shoot me?
As a vig, on your own, lack of trust may not line up with a strong enough scum read to take a shot at someone.
So he doesn't trust me, but still thinks I'm town?
In your universe are reads always binary?
In mafia games with town and mafia, then yes, they usually end up binary.
Trust indicates alignment.

Alignment reads are a continuum. A vig usually acts on the strongest, surest read, unless they're taking an approach of culling the town herd. Not trusting you does not equate to strongest scum read.

PeregrineV · Post Post #5098 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:35 am

5095

- You could speed it up and tell me which part you think is wrong

5096

- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.

5097

-

mastin2 · Post Post #5099 (ISO) » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:39 am

I'll see if I can make something productive out of this post.

Mastin's summary of this game:

21 Nice town, I'll take it.
14 (Crowd) Start the game already!
13 Sure, blame it on your isp.

12 Ack! Bein' rushed!
22 Quit posting!
7 Ahhhhhh!
16 Enemy sighted!
9 Ooooohhhh.
11 *Laugh*

24 (Heavy Brittish accent) Dadgum.
26 (frantic) The wonder, the wonderthewonderthe--noooooo!
22 Quit posting!
30 Wololo...
27 You played 200 hours to die like

this

?!?
28 (Laughing, course voice) You should see ze oder threads.

15 Don't point at me...
17 (It is good to be the mod.)