Mini 1463 (it has shitty jokes) over

[Generic]

I do love how easily RVS turns into the paranoia stage.
What the hell is notthepope all about?

NotThePope (hydra of notscience and TheIrishPope)

[Generic]

Also, (including Generic's attempted vote) that's L-2

Scum be tryin to push a D1 quick lynch somethin' fierce I see

Never assume. That wasnt a vote, it was a question and highlighting what I mean.

[Generic]

My apologies but I have had to skim on the phone. Will catch up on it all when I have more time.

But still no response to my question, what's all the stuff in brackets on notthepope's name?

[Generic]

My apologies but I have had to skim on the phone. Will catch up on it all when I have more time.

But still no response to my question, what's all the stuff in brackets on notthepope's name?

notthepope is a hydra so there are 2 different people sharing 1 account to play this game

And this is fair in mafia how?

How do you read a player displaying two separate metas?

[Generic]

Ok, tough from my phone but will give a few thoughts on people so far.

Om nom person and kid A have been my strongest town reads so far. Om cleared bub in such a closed way it set the alarm off, but how overall read is far too experienced to be so blatant in either white knighting or defending a teammate. He is just the right kind of paranoid I like, in the faces of everyone but not pushing anyone into a corner.
Kid A seems to be probing with good questions, and playing devils advocate early. I like that he will question the experienced players to cover angles that might have been missed, so a good feeling from him too.

Biggest scum reads so far are for smudger and NTP. I might be being unfair to NTP but I really am hating this idea that two people can play as a single role in mafia. The posts from them so far have been a little too erratic and I have reasons to concern myself early.
Smudger does appear to be playing it almost textbook if a mafia wanted to hide in plain site. Appearing to contribute but when you break it down the content just isn't there and feels very non committal.

I will attempt to do a full write up on everybody, but these are the guys who stood out as strong opinions one way or another. The rest have been a little more in the grey.

[Generic]

Om nom person and kid A have been my strongest town reads so far. Om cleared bub in such a closed way it set the alarm off, but how overall read is far too experienced to be so blatant in either white knighting or defending a teammate. He is just the right kind of paranoid I like, in the faces of everyone but not pushing anyone into a corner.

So I'm town because I'm experienced? I mean that really doesn't give any solid reasons to think I'm town.

Biggest scum reads so far are for smudger and NTP. I might be being unfair to NTP but I really am hating this idea that two people can play as a single role in mafia. The posts from them so far have been a little too erratic and I have reasons to concern myself early.

Literally everything here you mentioned is a part of being in a hydra, erratic posting especially. I'd like to know what those other reasons are though.

townread on Om of the Nom for the efforts put in to scum hunt

[/unvote][/unvote]

VOTE: DCLXVI

In his post 103 for voting levio because levio is "concerned with going with the flow", when levio is just bad. Hence the reason to vote him looks stretched.

This post reeks of easy reasons and no effort. Not to mention that the DCL vote is basically based on his attack on levio, aka it's a chainsaw defense.

I never cleared you on experience. I was analysing the stupid insta clear of bub without reasons attached, and an arogant experienced player such as yourself would do that sort if thing and assume that's fine. Or would I be wrong there and you are indeed scum white knighting or getting a teammate town credit?

[Generic]

Om nom person and kid A have been my strongest town reads so far. Om cleared bub in such a closed way it set the alarm off, but how overall read is far too experienced to be so blatant in either white knighting or defending a teammate. He is just the right kind of paranoid I like, in the faces of everyone but not pushing anyone into a corner.

So I'm town because I'm experienced? I mean that really doesn't give any solid reasons to think I'm town.

Biggest scum reads so far are for smudger and NTP. I might be being unfair to NTP but I really am hating this idea that two people can play as a single role in mafia. The posts from them so far have been a little too erratic and I have reasons to concern myself early.

Literally everything here you mentioned is a part of being in a hydra, erratic posting especially. I'd like to know what those other reasons are though.

townread on Om of the Nom for the efforts put in to scum hunt

[/unvote][/unvote]

VOTE: DCLXVI

In his post 103 for voting levio because levio is "concerned with going with the flow", when levio is just bad. Hence the reason to vote him looks stretched.

This post reeks of easy reasons and no effort. Not to mention that the DCL vote is basically based on his attack on levio, aka it's a chainsaw defense.

I never cleared you on experience. I was analysing the stupid insta clear of bub without reasons attached, and an arogant experienced player such as yourself would do that sort if thing and assume that's fine. Or would I be wrong there and you are indeed scum white knighting or getting a teammate town credit?

Why is it a stupid townread on Bub? Why does my playstyle+personality make it a townie thing for me to do? There's no meat to your argument.

I called the Insta clear stupid because ironically 'there was no meat on the bones'. I gets sting this is what annoys you about my town reason you when you felt it was fine to provide even less yourself.
And the reason I find it town for now is I see a lack of caring how it looks, and mafia generally care more about how their opinions and comments are perceived.

[Generic]

I gets sting = interesting

[Generic]

I called the Insta clear stupid because ironically 'there was no meat on the bones'. I gets sting this is what annoys you about my town reason you when you felt it was fine to provide even less yourself.

I never claimed Bub was a strong townread. I don't have much for thinking he's town in the first place but at the same time I don't have anything pointing him to being scum that counters that. You, however, claimed me as one of your strongest townreads and then gave nothing to really indicate why.

Your exact words were "bub is town" I believe. Doesn't get more definitive than that. And your continued querying and arguing why I would dare to call you a strong town read of mine further strengthens my belief you are town. I very much doubt as mafia you would take such issue with someone reading you and town as this.

[Generic]

I missed that from kid A, I take it this is a gloves off site?

I got a warning for using the word retarded on mtgs, and I want even calling anyone it!

Anyway, kid A has dropped in my estimations for the bully tactic. Smudger, your vote feels OMGUS, what's the full reason behind the vote there?

[Generic]

I wasn't commenting on your issue, your issue just flagged something up to me that I didn't like.

[Generic]

VOTE: NotThePope
now what the hell dude, you call someone and vote other guy? besides what is that "i want to get a wagon going" when the day hasn't even started yet... you are top in my scum list (this is not a wagon vote, I just want to put my shit straight)

This is probably because hydra

As of Page 3, yessiree is my strongest town read

No, if you think someone is scum you keep on saying it all game. Unless someone provides a good argument as to why that person isn't scum you should still call him scum. I was in a recent game where I called someone scum basically all game, it wasn't until lylo that that person was lynched and flipped scum. If I had listened to all the other townreads ppl had on that player we would have lost the game.

trust your scumhunting ... if you are town. However I don't think that is the case here.

someone is way to concerned with trying to go with the flow.

Bad logic. New town would be concerned with going with the flow.
Tentative VOTE: DCL to get off of Radiant, who is null

Smudger is just laying low posting shit like "in theory I would..." to distance himself from his views.

as for laying low, how am I laying low, I live in Dubai, which is a Muslim country,the weekend here is Friday/Saturday, and my time zone is +4 GMT. So my activity is low during my weekend, but then you would not know that. But what is irksome is your failure to appreciate that because of the DNS attack yesterday on the site getting into the forums was for me impossible, when all things are considered.

If I understand correctly, laying low refers to making sure not to rock the boat and not a lack of posting.
This sounds overly defensive.

townread on Om of the Nom for the efforts put in to scum hunt

I don't like this townread. And I retract my townread on yessir.

In addition, I don't like Generic for the same reason. (bullshit townreads)

also, i'm more ok with Kid A's vote on levio than DCL's, if people are wondering why i'm not picking on both of them. seems much more honest than DCL's odd pseudo-mentoring post where he all of a sudden votes levio out of the blue. Kid A finally decides to sprinkle some more logic to his post there.

I'm sorry, but aren't they the same reason? Are you focusing on tone of voice, because I don't really understand.

they're here, they're queer, they're not goin anywheer

Saved for posterity

Alabaska is my townread atm

You know what bothers me? DCL and Generic are raising the same flags to me, but only DCL is getting hit.

VOTE: Generic until DCL posts again, it seems like he's gone into hiding.

You say that like its a fault of the game. It's subjective interpretation, just because you are seeing issues with me the same as another player, doesn't mean everyone reads the game the same way.

[Generic]

I called the Insta clear stupid because ironically 'there was no meat on the bones'. I gets sting this is what annoys you about my town reason you when you felt it was fine to provide even less yourself.

I never claimed Bub was a strong townread. I don't have much for thinking he's town in the first place but at the same time I don't have anything pointing him to being scum that counters that. You, however, claimed me as one of your strongest townreads and then gave nothing to really indicate why.

Your exact words were "bub is town" I believe. Doesn't get more definitive than that.

I guess I can forgive you on this one for not knowing how I work. When it comes to giving out reads, I always show confidence, and I deal in absolutes quite frequently (only on the outside though, my reads are more complicated that what I actually post). However, you can tell when I'm feeling strongly about someone being town when I call them town repeatedly, or I might start defending them trying to get people not to lynch them.

New to mafiascum so I'm having to cold read you guys at present, but noted for meta. Can you give me a couple example games where you were town on here that I can check that against ease? And if you have been mafia one or two of them for comparison.

[Generic]

Liking whoever brought up that point about generic. Were going to agree there, kinda curious what happens when we....

VOTE: generic

Phonepost

You noticed your teammate trying to get your attention to back him up did ya?

Convenient that the guy who's name I can't pronounce (lots of letters, will call you TMT for now) gives a shout out for more people to be following his vote on me, and NTP leaps to the call.

Just because people have felt cause to voice early suspicions on me day 1 doesn't make it a must vote option. It's day 1, several people have been under suspicion from a few people without votes needing to be placed down. That's how mislynches get achieved. It's why pressure is applied and questions are asked, like om has done with me as an example.

NTP was already on my radar, looks like there was more to your vote and fishing for more go wagon me than I first thought TMT

[Generic]

I have been hesitant to pull certain reads from the thread because I haven't been able to give this the time it deserves to assess which I think have most merit. But you have made some genuine pushes on me from what I can tell, you haven't tried to twist what I have posted but have continued to develop the pressure on me by evolving the questions rather than continually dwelling on the same one or two elements. It's part of why I have continued to respond back at you, because I am seeing nothing but confirmation on my initial assessment of you.

But unless you have more you want me to answer om I have two people I am going to post analyse now to see if this is the first time they have linked (NTP and TMT).

[Generic]

This is part of the reason I have had less interest in this game. The lectures.

Don't take issue with hydras ( never seen such a setup anywhere else, so forgive me if I am struggling to get my head around it)

Don't speculate links (even though a suspicious player showing links to another suspicious player seems a better prospect than a suspicious player who tells you nothing leading off their flip)

Please accept I'm new to your site, you do things differently to what I'm used and so I can only play the game my way.
I know you guys in the main are trying to help me out but it makes me hesitant to do anything, and the point of this game is to enjoy it I thought. I may do things you don't like, but you don't have to agree with my assessments so it won't affect you. And I might just come good if I do it my way.

[Generic]

Classic overreaction to having 2 votes. TMT was on to something.

Hes stretching for ways to discredit the wagon on him. Interesting.

You jumped in too fast and too loose NTP, you let your teammate down.

[Generic]

you can do team speculations all day long, but it's useless without a flip

It's a fair comment, but it doesn't stop me utilising odd interactions for potential strengthening of my read on someone. When I do see a flip I then know what reads to rectify accordingly.

[Generic]

And I won't be voting until I see a need to. Just because you demand it doesn't make it likely to happen.

[Generic]

I'm still here!

I just haven't had much to say.

Reading back with my small screen, while TMT is trying to build something from nothing on me, NTPs vote was just opportunistic. I can decide whether TMTs post calling for others to vote was a request for support from a scum team or NTP was just seeing an opportunity, but either way it's the d I more of the two votes.

vote: not the pope

[Generic]

Sorry, was going to comment on cowbells filler post to keep alive but couldn't be bothered in the end, what is there to say about it except to contribute more and I'm not active enough myself.

Forgot to knock off the quote before posting my intended post when I rejoined this game tonight. Sorry for the confusion.

[Generic]

Generic, why did you feel the need to vote now as opposed to earlier? You just refused to vote, and now, after no posts from your main suspect, you decide to vote. Why?

I never said I wouldn't vote. If you look back over what I have said I was quite up front about being stuck with the phone to play this off. Doesn't help with regards to reading people. But I forced myself and felt NTP hasn't been at all pro town and has never attacked me off his own back, seeking to come in after others have had a dig.
Also things of note:
#22 Defended someone when it wasnt even his arguement (white knighting)
#24 continues to defend but then pulls out a random vote to start a wagon.
#54 other person in the team chastises the names vote in #24 but then throw down their own naked vote.
#61 oh look. The original vote is back. Anyone would think this indecision is filler without anyone being able to push them in why that vote (because even they disagree on the validity of it)
Then a series of posts very self focused and seemingly lacking in any sort of content or scum hunting. More filler basically. Then laughably tells me I need to get scum hunting.
When he finally begins to show signs if scumhunting he identifies DCL as scummy, but the next post they make has yessiree as one who needs pressure. Again it's a naked vote just for pressure, no case attached.
Then we move to a vote on me. Liking the point about me, but can't remember who said it and never says what that point was, but again hints at the vote being for pressure purposes.
Basically no scum hunting I can identify even though there's two of them, several naked votes to appear active, a vote on me with some vague reasoning attached that someone somewhere said something...

I refused to vote just because someone had told me I hadn't, and the reason I hadn't was I hadn't been able to do any assessments. It's not worth voting on nothing. I found something worth voting on.

[Generic]

Yo I think someone is scum
And I'm so certain that person is scum
But I won't use my vote to try to win the game lulz


^ Generic in his prime

lynching ntp will give us the most information imo

Alright
I've tried to be calm
Rational
And serene
So answer this right and I won't drop a fucking brick on your balls
What information will you gain?

The one with the lower iq must have the keyboard.
I wasn't going to vote until I had done the review of you. When I did, I voted. I have just responded to being asked why I voted with the case.

Your response is to mock me for not voting... Riiiight.

[Generic]

Thanks for continuing to justify my vote, you have no defence so you build straw men instead. Keep on digging that hole.

[Generic]

@ntp, I will return to your case against me when it's not 4:20 in the morning...

But your arguement is flawed when you exaggerate the parameters. You don't need to remember anything, but your exact reason for suspecting me was someone who's name you codnt remember made a good point... Then you never specify the point.

It reminds me actually of something someone whos name i cant recall said to me yesterday....

Anyway, goodnight.

[Generic]

Trying to figure out this sudden kid A wagon that's formed. So far kid A has opened in RVS with a vote on NTP, then a naked vote to bub, followed by a return to NTP with what looks to be a serious vote based on indecision between the two users making up the hydra. He then criticises NTP for not explaining themselves, explains to me how to read a hydra mindset, then at post 106 changes vote to Levio based on the theory now that NTP will flip town and Levio knows this. Continues the case on Levio with decent logic, then switches to cowbell based on not much input of her own, leans on alabaska for an NTP read, goes back to cowbells to point out their OMGUS and show the difference in how each voted for people (the assumption here is that kid gives an explanation and cowbell doesn't).
From here there is an abusive outburst to alabaska to give his NTP read, moves his vote to NTP before then switching to NTP with the short reason of it giving most information.
He then in single sentence responses pushes NTP, and at one point explains he unvoted alabaska because he went v/la (dies that count as a reason?) before seemingly dodging responses to people who are pushing on him.

Summarised, there are a few concerns about his play, such as the leaving cases he built in favour of an NTP push which has very little case from him or indeed an explanation, and also the leaving of the alabaska vote I don't fully understand the reasoning given.
But beyond that he has been applying pressure and the vote changing up until NTP has always had a strong logic attached to why.

Is the wagon building solely to force him to stop dodging questions or have I missed something more damning on him? Currently im not seeing anything worthy of the speed those votes came in at.

[Generic]

anyone else starting to feel omnom and yessiree could be a team?

Nope, not seeing that, seeing Generic buddying up to you though and basically fighting your corner as you don't seem arsed about it.

So it's buddying to look at the actions of kid myself and then question such a fast wagon on a weaker case than there is for others?

I call that being as objective as possible to avoid mislynching, but ok.

[Generic]

Well I see what you mean. For me when I looked over his posts he has a very strong start, some great logic and good vote choices because of that logic, but recently it feels like he has given up or isn't as good on the defensive as he is the offensive.

So yeah I get your point now. The pressure on him I don't disagree with, he will either show some defensive fight or get found out, but my main concern was a seemingly strong scum hunter was being fast wagoned with votes that don't have the same level of explanation attached to them.

[Generic]

The pressure on him I DO agree with...

Sorry, I mistyped there.

[Generic]

Posts 66, 106 and 132 all come with reasons for the vote. After that not so much.

[Generic]

Am I missing something here? Kid A is theorising levios mindset, and is speculating what Levio is expecting to happen.

How is that ANY different to you bub declaring so so e town and someone mafia there? You assume a flip, kid a has assumed the actions of someone who might know what someone will flip.

That's so weak and you tried to dress it up as cast iron.

[Generic]

Post #223 is where my NTP case is...

[Generic]

As awesome as a Generic-Om-Ald town voting bloc would be, I can't bring myself to vote NTP at the moment. Generic's case is too much relational tells and "I hate hydras" and Om's case is too much stretching and gut (which sound like unfortunate medical side effects).

NTP just reads too much like a disorganized hydra rather than scum.

I'll do a bit of meta research later and if I don't like what I see I'll probably vote NTP. (I'll mainly be looking for quality of scumhunting in other games.)

(I'd vote Smudger except that I actually sort of like his recent posts. Ugh.)

Do you know me from elsewhere? It's the first time someone had included me in a list with AWESOME attached and it makes me wonder if you know my mafia history.

[Generic]

With the deadlock being unlikely to change without the remaining three people not voting for either kid A or NTP can those three assess the cases against both and see if either wagon appeals.

I don't know how the site handles a deadlock at deadline.

[Generic]

Where did kid A clear Levio?

[Generic]

NTP our intent is to lynch you if you don't comply with claiming. no reason for town to withhold here, so i'm feeling good about my vote

pedit: he didn't, bub is scum

OK, im on the NTP wagon but im very uncomfortable with this post. You don't talk for everyone, please don't do that again because currently there are only 6 (I think) who do want him lynched and comments like that feel like you are trying to force it through and it gives me concerns of a mislynch.

Add to that your trying to force a claim when I don't think anyone gave intent for the hammer you seem to be trying to rush the process the site generally works to.

[Generic]

Scratch that, there is intent, thanks to kid A for the subtle reminder :p

The rest of my post stands though, concerned about the intent to force things along.

[Generic]

Im concerned about the lynch of a potentially safe town role in night phase, but as pointed out how much can it be trusted?

Hate policy lynched as they do have a tendency to bite you in the ass. But the only other wagon I simply don't agree with.

Its gonna be one or the other at this late stage, unless someone has a lead on anything else. Bubs over defence of NTP has been a concern, it felt a lot like white knighting at times.

[Generic]

I'm implying nothing, I'm just trying to get my head round why you are do aggressively protecting a guy who obviously is coming across scummy to be at L-1.
Unless you are defending a godfather or other strong scum role to be so obvious day 1, the only other thing I can think of is white knighting. Either way it's odd play.

[Generic]

We edge closer to deadline. What's happening?

[Generic]

Deadline actually must have passed looking back at the last post count.

What happens, a no lynch or highest votes gets it?

[Generic]

Posting this for the time stamp...

[Generic]

VOTE: Kid A

Nothing has changed for me.

Seriously? Werent you and bub telling us all how town NTP was?

vote cowbells

[Generic]

I never said anything about how town NTP was. I considered him scummy, but still a bad wagon.
If someone is 20% scum and another person is 50% scum, lynching the 20% scum is a bad wagon.

Generic, why are you acting like me and Bub are the same person? We're not.
We just happen to mutually agree on a scumread and for my part I consider him town.

I'm feeling Smudger/Kid A/NTP.

My mind has been made up for a while, sweetheart.

-_^

I think I've mixed you with someone else. Bub and another player were giving everyone hell over voting for NTP.

Best with me, will take a look back...

[Generic]

The NTP wagon sucks and everyone on it is earning themselves huge scumpoints.

Look, it was you cowbells. Everyone on the wagon of a now confirmed scum player was earning themselves scum points. What's the cash value on those points of yours cowbells? Three fifths of fuck all it seems.

My name is Ike and I approve of the previous message.

You were endorsing a bub post telling everyone we weren't lunching NTP because it was stupid... Stupid to lynch scum?

Let's lynch Kid-A instead and then discuss what to do about NTP tomorrow.

Typical scum tactic to try and find a way onto bussing a teammate without looking like a scummy u-turn.


And this crap about NTP being 20% scum is crap, he was 109% scum in the end... So why would your read on kid A be accurate?

[Generic]

So you stand by the NTP wagon sucking? The one that got a mafia player lynched?

A wagon you are suddenly willing to hammer when all else was lost.

And now you are trying damage limitation to try and clear anyone who didn't vote for NTP.

[Generic]

*you WERE suddenly willing...

[Generic]

It's also a convenient assumption that mafia players would join the growing wagon of a teammate.

The difference here is that we had a wagon on NTP at L-1 and one on kid A at L-2. In fact at one point they both sat at L-2.

If all remaining mafia were on the NTP wagon they had opportunity to spare him and condemn kid A. That why I think this idea is a smokescreen.

[Generic]

Oh I see now, you think BOTH wagons were for scum players. I was working on the assumption I have that kid A is town, but if you look at both as scum you are suggesting that the other mafia player (is there three in total?) made the decision that NTP was the more likely lynch.

[Generic]

What's with the fishing om?

[Generic]

In the theory that both were scum wagons the idea that smudger is mafia would make sense as he hammered one to try and spare the other.
But the kid A being scum arguement still doesn't make sense to me. Did you present a case against kid A yourself cowbells?

[Generic]

unvote

Cowbells may not have good reads, but he is answering questions well when I look at it now he is perceiving it, and the cowbells wagon did seem to move fast.

Time to reread bub...

[Generic]

On that yessiree, if a player spent a lot of effort stopping a player getting lynched, and then when the vote got hammered he went very quiet on the subject... When the player who was lynched flipped town what would you make of the sudden silence on the matter?

To me IF bub was mafia he would have to keep up the pretence that we just lynched town, because it would give away that he knew otherwise. And IF smudger was scum as one theory speculates, what better way to distance yourself from the other teammate?

All IFs though, and as I think has been pointed out such a blatant defence of a player that turned out to be scum doesn't seem like normal scum play... I'm trying to determine if it was a double bluff though. His opening and only post on day 2 seems bad as a start point, I want to hear more from him.

[Generic]

*When the player who was lynched flipped SCUM...

[Generic]

pp: @ generic: Bub did attack Smudger's hammer vote, in #497, and #499, would a scum player, knowing that his partner just got lynched, still uphold that defiance of an attitude?

But that's my point yessiree.

Say it was me defending NTP so aggressively. Suddenly he is hammered and I stop dead all my defensive comments. NTP flips scum, what do you make of my reaction?
Good scum should know not to drop something just because they know the outcome, that's waaaay too obvious.

Bub, you have told us who you think is town based on yesterday. But cowbells, someone you just identified now as a potential suspect, claims all remaining mafia were on that NTP wagon.
Since you don't agree with that, do you think ANY mafia were on the wagon? Bear in mind you were one of five pushing the kid A wagon so it wasnt an obviously scummy wagon, even if I don't get it.
If cowbells is one, who would be your other biggest suspect right now?

For me bub you are still a suspect due to suddenly just naming town players in your opinion. That feels like mafia trying not to press any opinions too hard right now.

Smudger was an interesting choice for suspicion but he did give plenty of warning to the hammer and the way he was leaning with the wagons.

Cowbells does look bad from day 1, but his day 2 defence has been pretty good. The stubbornness to return to the kid A wagon feels very town with the subsequent explanation.

Om is probing again with questions, seems to be honest in his reactions to asking questions already answered but did feel like he was fishing earlier and ignored me when I questioned it.

Kid A seemed town to me on day 1, the main points against him ft like a misrep of his posts. Kid A I would like your reads on other players please too.

Yessiree has seemed to be keen to find town theory to reactions of people which is sort of null for me, but if it leads to him offering some suspects I get the logic of his current posts. Will need to look back on his day 1 as I don't know much about his posting...

Will look at the others but these are the main posters of day 2 so far, will put a t/s list together as day 2 goes on...

[Generic]

Missed alabaska, his posting has been very pro town so far, no issues there at present.

[Generic]

The wildcard in sport is usually an entrant that hasn't got there by the standard means, like in tennis it can be base on invite into the tournament.

I think in the case of this context a wildcard would be the unknown entity. As stated you were on neither wagon, your opinions were tunnelled solely on me I think throughout day 1 and therefore your leaning is indeterminate.

[Generic]

It was when you pressed for who cowbells thought was scum on the NTP wagon, like you were checking you weren't in the frame (self image concerns).

Possibly a paranoia thing on my part, possibly something to note for later.

[Generic]

vote bub bidderkins

I feel he needs to post more on this, lets see if we can't encourage him back

[Generic]

Yessiree, your original point was that if bub was scum why didn't he just drop the fight in twilight. My arguement was to point out that by carrying on he looks more town because of the exact arguement you just made. You were talking like you expect scum to make this easy for us, I was pointing out they won't.
And his defeatism and minimal input reads hiding until the best dies down... But it's not going to, so he needs to start putting together either a defence or some significant game reads.

[Generic]

In post #624 yessiree votes for bub.
Posts #627, and #628... Yessiree is talking of bub as town.

Am I missing something here?

While I agree with your point bub, I'm more referring to your defence of your attitude day 2.
You were clearly strong minded and opinionated day 1, day 2 it's suicidal defeatism. I could forgive day 1 had you showed some fight or growth, look at cowbells for an example of a guy who basically did similar to you day 1 but came into day 2 with the impression at least he will do better with his scumhunting today.
You... Not so much.

My vote is with you for now but yessiree is working hard to gain it instead.

[Generic]

unvote

My vote was for pressure, I'm not having it springboard into a fast lynch. Yessiree, you are suddenly having a mental breakdown which isn't endearing, pressure getting to you?

[Generic]

No, he has been at L-2 for a bit though. I unvoted before cowbells put him back at L-2

[Generic]

Lol, you know what I did, I read bug voting cowbells and somehow turned that around!

Early morning and three kids, what more can I say :p

It means at least one Mafia if not both were on that wagon, or is it too simplistic to assume they would risk standing out as the hammer? Depends if bub is a mislynch or mafia I suppose.

[Generic]

So basically the two biggest wagons are the two most vocally either defending NTP or persecuting kid A.

Kid A is seemingly an antagonistic little fucker, but his play has been pro town so I think cowbells is just tunnelling out of pride more than anything else.

Bub, would you mind providing a read of the players left in the game please. Your reconsideration of kid A based solely on his NTP push as well as calling smudger town simply because he hammered seems far too basic. And the confidence you argued with day 1 suggests simplistic theory like that is beyond you.

Lets kick this day phase into a bit of life.

[Generic]

I read BUB voting cowbells, and somehow I took that in as cowbells voting bub. It's why I thought bub went to L-2 after I unvoted. He was actually at L-1, so I'm happy with the unvote to slow this day down. That wagon grew way too fast.

[Generic]

Yessiree, I don't see value in bub being at L-1 while I still can't get my head around why a scum player would be so blatant in defending another scum player.

Bbl for answering the rest...

[Generic]

@Generic, you were the second one to vote Bub while quoting a post from Cowbells

IIRC you claimed you voted to pressure Bub

now you unvote because the wagon grew too fast?

If so, then why no comment on Smudger's immediate hop on the wagon as the third vote?

If you chose to unvote Bub, does that mean you are satisfied with his response thus far? because they are far from satisfactory.

I have no intention of dismissing bub, but intent to put him at L-1 is still pressure, without the added situation of someone else hammering. Call it trying to keep a measure of control if you like, but what have we really learned from day 2 besaides you crack under pressure, cowbells hasn't changed his/her view of kid A but isn't totally tunnelled they cant look elsewhere, and smudger the hammerer has not done an awful lot yet.

I have 4 im reading as town right now, and thats (in order of how much I believe them to be town) Adlusskel, alabaska, om the nom, kid A.

In the middle I have cowbells and yessiree. Both of you are very commited, and aggression I know all too well can be born out of frustration so you guys get a null simply because I can empathise with that mindset but cannot call you town while you have these scummy actions.

I also have to null TMT for bias reasons, I feel very anti him purely because of his tunnelled push on me yesterday. I know I need to be objective, and its why I have shelved him in null, but he has dropped a couple of anti town posts (non committal to the hammer in general and leaned towards kid A without actually commiting a vote) but also been pro town at times, including being willing to put out an updated TS list, although it was very short and lacking in commitment.

So that leaves:
Mutleyddmc - Came in late, was the one who set up the hammer for smudger, but my concern there is that NTP was sinking and had claimed bomb at that point. Posts in single sentences, can really get any major sign of scumhunting or full participation. Feels like he is flying under the radar for me. Leaning scum.

Bub Bidderskins - Not showing signs of heavy involvement day 2 after being a strong feature of day 1. don't want to see a fast lynch on anyone today while I collect my thoughts, but of the remaining players is the most likely to get my vote if he doesn't put anything down in text that shows me some pro town effort.

smudger - hammered the scum player. was very keen to hammer it too, so I cant get over the idea he set that up to get major town cred. hasn't really commited much in the analysis of players, feels like he is flying under the radar. Smudger I players please,

[Generic]

And that was early in the game, my first encounter with the hydra setup.

What NTP then did was try to invalidate arguements with that as the excuse, when it simply wasnt true.

[Generic]

Well he takes issue with cowbells voting NTP in post 51,

At post 59 calls NTP the towniest player.

215 attacks me for finally voting and it being for NTP.

435 he doesn't want NTP to claim...

Not a single direct interaction. Not uncommon on day 1, but considering he spent a lot if time defending NTP, the fact he never directly addressed a single NTP post or spoke to NTP directly is,,, rather telling.

vote bub bidderskins

That's L-1 guys, so be very aware of the next vote being the hammer. Intent only for now.

You did provide a few reads, but what doesn't fit is you went for kid A based on cowbells case, having up to that point simply been defending NTP. You never engage with NTP but defend him the whole way. Day 2 you played it wry quiet and uninvolved, and when pushed still keep comments tight or positive.
You OMGUS vote cowbells, the same person you jumped on the cost tails of day 1 against kid A.

Far too much doesn't sit right. So you are going to have to claim at this point I feel.

[Generic]

im not buying mutleys playing dumb, and im annoyed. That is wht I pulled the vote initially, a fast wagon felt like there was something going on. But I put it back, made it VERY clear that it was L-1, TMT even bloody quoted my post so it was there twice when he gave intent.

he had better flip scum, cos that felt deliberate.

[Generic]

Believe it or not I would have co spidered him nor likely town had he responded after the vote that it had been intentional.

The 'no, you are lying' bullshit reeked of scum.

[Generic]

Co spidered = considered.

Nor = more

[Generic]

I think vig. An SK has nothing to lose using a kill, a vig would be more hesitant to shoot or could even have limited shots. Cowbells and TMT though? Who killed who?

[Generic]

Agreed, you are also touching on wifom with the speculation over the motives.

[Generic]

ah I see. But in general the feeling is NTP? or is there a shift to Kid?

This right here om posted for his smudger case is awful.

Not only was he hesitant on the hammer, which isn't a bad thing, he seems actively keen to get a morsel of something to go the other way. He wants to vote with majority concensus and not on the scummiest option...

Self imge over scum hunting, and looking for a way to go against the eventual lynching of scum.

Can't believe I missed that post, that's awful.
Smudger, your defence of that?

[Generic]

yessiree, do you think kid A is mafia?

[Generic]

I agreed with at least part of the points on smudger kid A, yet you completely left me out of any suspicion.

Im not touting for a vote here, I just am not a fan of selective logic because its making the analysis fit the desired conclusion. I think you make an excellent point about how he is high up a lot of people's lists as town, but I have 4 of you firmly in the town bracket and only you kid A are under enough suspicion to warrant the reasoning for surviving night phases. The night kills no matter which were mafia have been odd, I am trying to get my head around them for some sort of logical conclusion. But with the death of cowbells/TMT night 2 I am left wondering about the night 1 kill.
Did DCL protect the actual target or do we have a mafia team who aren't very good at reading this specific game and are playing it under preconceptions of the ability of certain players.

Those of you who are veterans to mafiascum, the three dead players, are they carrying strong reps around here?

[Generic]

Ok, you and om have dominated this part of the game enough.

Om, you are building an awful lot of of something quite small by comparison. There is a case to be answered there but you are beating us all to death with the walls of text.

Smudger you are reacting emotively, misrepresenting your own actions in hindsight and have yet to explain how you seemingly were showing concern for how you look with the choice of vote.

[Generic]

vote smudger

if that's your best smudger, to throw an attitude remark at me and tell me what I read was the FULL explanation, then you haven't convinced me.

[Generic]

See, I'm doubting the claim for the simple fact I'm town neighbouriser.

And would town get 4 PRs?

[Generic]

@alduskkel

I asked him about kid A because they had attacked each other all the previous day, and kid A returned to it but yessiree whimpily moaned about how pro town he was.

Something had changed, and had it not been for alabaska flipping a pr I would believe his claim. I need to assess this, cos its just the right time for a gambit like this, and if he and whoever the other mafia worked out a plan...

Lets hold votes til everyone has had a say.

[Generic]

See, I'm doubting the claim for the simple fact I'm town neighbouriser.

And would town get 4 PRs?

who are neighbours

if you townread me why am i nkt neighboured

Because you are so antagonistic and gung ho myself and alduskkel had chosen differently.

I chose alduskkel on night 1, because not only did I have one of the two strongest town reads on him he was not in the faces of people do I hoped he might have a calm and analytical view on the game.

We both chose alabaska as 2nd neighbour, and the final choice was om who I had read town on right up until yessiree dropped that bombshell.

Needless to say I have held up chat in the neighbourhood while I consider if I have a rat infestation.

But I had a choice on night 3, kid A, Om and noone. Should have gone with noone.

[Generic]

So you believe the claim on yessiree then kid A?

A player you have tunnelled for two days as scum drops in a claim and he points in lylo to a player you had also begun suspecting (yet didn't you hammer smudger?) is definitely telling the truth now?

The last of the kid A wagoners left no less. Why was kid A not your first investigation yessiree?

See, something doesn't add up here...

[Generic]

V/LA for personal issues, will update Sunday

[Generic]

I figured you might throw out a quick vote mutley, but can you please just unvote so the three of us can discuss this through.

Alduskkel has already had the opportunity to spit ball a bit with me, but now we get the chance to do the same here.
All I ask is that we don't have text wall fights over points and try and keep arguements either concise or comprehensive.

I have a few concerns with both your plays on the look back, do you want me to share my thoughts on you first mutley?

Pedit: discussed it with ald and we both were concerned that one mafia was already in, we couldn't risk another at that stage.

And last night phase I didn't see any value in it, either scum is already in there with me or I'm inviting scum in to try and use any information they can get their hands on to sell me a lie. So we can have the chat out here, I was robbed of one day phase as it is.

[Generic]

I tried to send that three times but you two keep posting.

[Generic]

At the poi t of voting in om we were already discussing if alabaska was scum, I started to get concerned at my judgement and then the reveal on om blew the chat apart!
Then alduskkel demanded I bring you in after going on a tirade of posts where he was accusing me of being mafia, and it began to feel like he was setting up something from the day 4 chat where he was presenting me as scum to you for you then to see this selection of comments where he looks pro town attacking me.
Having read your Iso mutley there are a few things that concerned me.

Here is my recent analysis, direct from the QT:

RL issues have held me up ald, my son dropped a paving slab on his foot and its now in a cast do that's been an issue along with the wife wanting stuff building, etc...

Anyway, been reading up on you and mutley.

Mutley does things which concerns me. Looking at them as if he's scum -
Fishes for a vig by asking about two kills (in a game this small I doubt an SK would wait to start killing, do the question is stupid or tactical)
Goes to follow the cop investigation lead but hesitates and points out the days importance and creates a little wifom.
Makes a big point that I'm next to die, yet I survive. Either looking to create doubt about me or distance himself from that kill.
Fishes on me to give him a case against you by trying to establish whether you had much input into om getting the invite. Om would know your input having read it in our hat, and has fed this to his teammate to use against you.
Suddenly the yessiree kill was obvious when I was the one certain to die...
Completely rules me out on no solid foundation like kid A has.

You assuming you are scum -
You were quick to clear me and om as town. Maybe you picked on something about me but lumping me in with a now known scum helps to promote a strong town image on a teammate if others pick up on the town tells you saw in me.
Your NTP vote came with a proviso that if a wagon on two others got going you would move.
Comment in 390 is only an issue if you are scum because you say "god forbid I earn scum points for lunching scum" with reference to NTP. Sarcasm through inside knowledge?
You were pushing DCL as scum then he does, making you very unlikely as the killer... Distancing?
You push TMT as a will add, again distancing from someone who is night killed. Whether he or cowbells was the mafia kill we still don't know but if you are scum that's two kills you spent the previous day distancing from.
You back om in the s urged vote, even implying you echo his points.
You complain about a fast day three and the need to slow down, but day 5 I think it whizzed by in hours!
Then there is a whole lot of pushing on yessiree as scum, but pointing out if he is telling the truth om must be lynched... Kind of obvious but feels like a bit if distancing again.
And then we get to you and mutley arguing...

Do either of you want to come back on those points?

[Generic]

vote alduskkel

Voting when I said to hold off... You have t listened to me at all have you

[Generic]

Die scum

[Generic]

I did, you chose to ignore me so I chose to not wait.

[Generic]

B)

Troll is a bit harsh.

[Generic]

Well overall your own instinct... You called it first post of QT, there could be a mafia neighbouriser.

[Generic]

Damn you with all the posts... That was to ald


Pedit: we had no day chat

[Generic]

Officially hold a 100% record of debut mafia wins on any site I join. 3 out of 3.


Perot: did you panic when I almost killed ald last night? :p

I wanted to clarify if my vote would hammer and wanted to ensure mutley had t fake voted somehow as a test.

[Generic]

Perot = pedit

[Generic]

As for the NTP thing, it was not plan ed at all. I warned NTP I would harass him over the hydra thing in a noght0 chat but that was it. On went for me early in his arrival and instinctively I fought back before I realised he was with me! NTP attacked me so it felt natural to harass him to lynch and white knight kid A, it made several others stand out as s ummy for their support of NTP.

Yessiree was a spanner in the works though, that's where I thought we lost it, but om reassured me we could still do it and formed the plan for me to follow before he fell on his sword.

[Generic]

Never feel bad, the game is for me to hide amongst you, and for you to figure it out. There were 8 others who failed to figure it out too, and ald voted for you remember.

[Generic]

Oh, and I still think alduskkel is the last mafia even now

[Generic]

I should have voted for mutley, I let ald down

[Generic]

Do you give out awards then? Like MVPs and stuff?

[Generic]

NTP being bussed built the foundation for this win. Om was tactically sound and I used the neighbourhood to ultimately win this for us.

[Generic]

I just meant btw does the mod assign best town and best mafia players for the game.

Alds meltdown came all at on e for me, it was crazy funny to try a d redeem it somehow by turning it back on him.

[Generic]

Had I kept convincing you I was town ald, would you think me town?

I wouldn't. At 3 people left for me to buddy to you in the face of an onslaught of paranoia at me would have given it all away

I played it the only way I could, pull your safety net of an ally from under you.