NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Bulbazak]

I've been pushing Nero as scum since the end of d1 based on his deflection.

Have you?

Could have fooled me, I don't remember you pushing a wagon on him let me check your vote on him...

If Bacde was independently scummy there would be nothing preventing him from being redscum. He just isn't. And being wrong is not a scumtell in and of itself.

Can you explain this?

Mala's tantrum and the followup by Mara feel very town to me, which is the first time since d1 that they have been townreading so strongly. I'm not sure I buy their Khan case, but I'd like to see how this plays out first. Going to go with the vote I had originally before I was convinced by Desperado to join the wagon.

Vote Nero Cain

This is a good wagon.

P-edit: They just felt thrown together at the last minute. You were also not up to date on Cephrir or PV, which showed in how you couldn't give a coherent read on them. I also found it strange that you would have so many nulls at this point in the game. This shows that you're clearly not reading the game as closely as you should.

Sure were pushing that wagon eh?!

Good work Bulbazak!

Yes, conveniently leave out and forget the fact that I have been arguing with Nero and calling him scum for his deflection since the end of d1, and am still doing so. Good job Scumdaar.

I've been pushing Seanald as scum since at least the end of d1 based on him staying on the sidelines and stirring the pot.

Have you?

Well if you could link me to the part where you make a case on him, make an argument to try and convince someone else hes scum or link me to where you made a nice coherent post to him or regarding him that wasn't a tiny snippet hidden within a wall that would be very useful.

Spoiler: Scumhunting Seanald

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

Need this addressed:

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

I don't like you popping your head in, making a potshot at someone, and then lurking back into the shadows and ignoring anything asked of you. Get in here and scumhunt, or tomorrow I'll lead the crap out of your wagon!

so just based off of Syr's reads, Desp,Red, and AA9(based on his comment) are switched into the scum pile. and baby spice and bacde join the null to scum pile.
theres more to read based off of syrs reads switching but I honestly can't keep it all in my head.

after isoing Syr I can believe that Red killed syr, but if he did why did his team let him? at that point Red was a pretty good bussing option so why kill a person gunning for his death? unless Syr's reads were just retardedly accurate and the scum team got scared of him.

Actually, you avoided talking about Syryana's later reads. I believe the 2 that he was advocating as scum, besides Ryu and Oversoul, at the end of d1 were Cephrir and Baby Spice/penguin_soldier. I'll have to go back and double check on penguin though, and also I need to remind myself what his stance on Desperado was.

All that being said, what you gave us was pure IIoA. Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

@Seanald: This still needs to be answered:

Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

up for a cephrir wagon as well if anyone wants to get that bitch rollin back up

Do you actually have a case on him, or is this you continuing to sit on the sidelines and keeping your hands from actually getting dirty?

UNVOTE: ceph

VOTE: AK

yeah sorry I just can't stand cry babies.

I mean I get the feeling that what your doing now is very frustrated town flailing but, your just too annoying for me right now, if you can calm down and start doing things logically I'll probably take this vote off.

Can't believe that I forgot to address this yesterday, especially since I reacted to it so negatively. Anybody who knows me should understand why I hate this. I don't care for policy lynches, especially when there's so much more to talk about. It's a lazy way to push a lynch and avoid any responsibility later.

UNVOTE: AK

the vote wasn't personal AK, i just have a self-made zero tolerance rule for people freaking out, its just unnecessary, but you've explained your self well and back in mah town reads.

Desp I understand your case on me, but I honestly thinking your reaching for connections, you could probably go through the whole player list and do exactly what you did on me to everyone else, or even make the arguement that those without any interactions with bluescum what so ever are most likely blue scum, its all just not very concrete.

I was also surprised to see this case just randomly pop up from you, after you were saying I was likely town. maybe saying that spurred you to Iso me and take a second look which I can see, but considering your my neighbor I'd rather us work together on things,

so what questions do you want answered from me? or how can we work this out together because your a pretty concrete town read for me and I don't want to see the extra communication we get go to waste, even though we've probably been wasting it up to this point lol.

Town pacification

and

buddying.

I've been pointing out his lurking and stirring the pot since d1. On d2, he did some IIoA on Syryana's posts and didn't actually come to a conclusion on who was scum until after I pressured him on it. Then after his horrible AK vote and unvote, I actually voted him, which came at the end of that last post. What more did you want? For me to pray to the great and powerful Mastin and have all scum magically revealed to us?

I've been questioning Ffullisade on them dodging Thor's questions.

Questioning. What have you done with your questioning? what was the end result of it? Nothing.

Since when did I become Superman? Thor spent 2 days questioning them and arguing with them on the same subject, and somehow you expect

me

to magically convince the town that Thor was right and that they should vote Ffullisade, when even

he

couldn't do it? Speaking of which, I'm assuming you reconsidered some things after Thor's flip. What are your thoughts on the argument that he pushed so hard, and why haven't you acted on your revised take on the game?

Need I go on?

No, please don't I have heard enough.

Bulbazak does nothing, he may ask questions he may look like he is interacting and scumhunting but the fact is nothing ever results from what he says. This is the meaning of doing nothing.

Which is ironic, coming from the guy who has sat on the sidelines and not even scumhunted. All you've done is throw out an occasional comment and call someone scum. That's not scumhunting. That's going through the motions. And then you have the audacity to try to claim someone else, who has put more effort into finding scum than you, mind you, and has tried to ascertain other player's motivations, is not scumhunting.

We lynch this after Nero.

I've been pushing Nero as scum since the end of d1 based on his deflection.

Which was no more of a "deflection" than Kitty's "ZOMG, LOOK AT THE FITH VOTE!!!" or Mollie's "U R DUMB!" or whatever fucktarded thing she said.

I mean, really. I asked Khan why he thought my setup speculation was scummy despite others doing it. That's no different then your view of Kitty asking my why I didn't find Bcade's 5th vote (THAT WASN'T EVEN A VOTE!!!) scummy/opportunistic.

and now that I'm the leading wagon your vote is where? That's right. You aren't voting. Which is a big reason why I'm reading you as scum, I've been your #1 suspect since day 2 and instead of being overjoyed and hopping on my wagon you are tentative as fuck to vote me wich doesn't strike me as town in the least.

please die scum.

Your actual refusal to read is irritating me so much that I'm starting to get a headache. When Seanald's wagon got to L-3, CTD asked to be given some time to make some final posts regarding the game. Therefore, I unvoted to give him the time he needed. Why would I, then, immediately turn around and vote you, who was reaching the same levels as Seanald, after I had unvoted in the first place in order to give CTD more time? That's why I asked CTD if he had finished making his final posts, especially since I saw him not only voting you, but moaning about your wagon slowing down. As soon as I find out he's finished with what he needed to do, I will be voting for you, as my scumread on your slot is stronger.

That's like half the point of this game; to speculate on players motives. But the question has NOTHING to do with Bcade and everything to do with AK using a "hey look over there defense".

First, you were asking me about player motives based on votes that may or may not exist, from Bacde no less. Bacde's voting history has been eratic, and I really don't want to get into this, especially in a conversation that's about YOU, not AK. Second, AK was not using a "hey look over there defense", she was asking about your motives and criteria.

This is extremely relevant to our conversation/argument. If YOU think that she was asking me about my motives then its a fair question to ask you why she felt that I should have called out Bacade on his "5th vote"

Sixteenth Votecount: (AKA, the "Times are a changin, votes are a not" votecount)
Nachomamma8 - 4 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty)

As you can see, bacde was already on the Nacho wagon and therefore his revote was NOT the 5th vote.

YOU are claiming that this was not a deflect and her asking about my motives. I'm calling bullshit on this 'cause Bacde didn't even have the 5th vote on the Nacho wagon and so Kitty's post looks like nothing more than a "hey look over there" post 'cause I find it very very hard for Mala to legit believe that I should have found his post scummy/opportunistic when he wasn't even the 5th vote.

So explain to me how she was asking about motive and criteria based on a not actual vote.

But this conversation is not about AK's motivation at all. This is about your deflection onto 3 other players. I have explained in great detail the difference between your post and AK's, which you seem intent not to listen to. You have since been trying to steer the conversation away from the original point and onto AK herself, which is in and of itself a deflection, which you have claimed you are not doing.

As for the Bacde 5th vote point, Bacde actually reemphasized his vote after AK placed her vote on Nacho. AK could have easily thought that Bacde was the 5th vote, which was why she was asking about your criteria.

This tells me that you are specifically attacking me, weather you think I'm a soft target or if weather I'm scumreading a buddy of yours, it doesn't matter. What matters is that you are selectively scumhunting me and I want to know why you find my "deflect scummy" but not Mollies or Kitties?

As I've repeatedly explained, AK wasn't deflecting, and I've explained this using everything from context to actual post structure. She asked about your criteria, and that question was a small part of a larger post, and therefore didn't hold as much weight. Your deflection was the main point of your post, as that was what the entire post was focused on. You were not asking about criteria, but why Khan wasn't looking elsewhere. You then proceeded to ask him why he did not read you as town. The entirety of your post was scummy, whereas AK's was not.

Are you now accusing Mollie of deflecting as well?

I think your defense of Kittens is scummy. Weather they are town and you are defending them for cred or they are your scumbuddy doesn't really matter to me and we'll cross that bridge after you flip scum. The point is that, your defense of the slot looks scummy to me and that I and no one (besides the mods and your maybe scumbuddy) but you know if you are scum defending scum or scum defending town.

What about my defense looks scummy?

I'll be moving on to page 174, but first I need to take a break, as I'm incredibly frustrated atm.

[Bulbazak]

+ there's the fact that he didn't vote scumThez which I find rather odd.

I had limited access at the time, and I ended up being behind for most of the day (I caught up during the night cycle.). There was no way that I was going to place a vote without being fully caught up with the thread, as I could have missed crucial information or have accidentally hammered and left the town without information they could use later on.

I guess bulba has been rather mechanical this game

especially with his posts that go "on to page 135" and then "on to page 148" which have the feel of post-by-posting but never seem to truly follow up with great insight

I've done that as both alignments.

He also relied a lot less on his book of fallacies...played more loosely, more emotionally.

Bulb: can you link us to a town and scum game you think are representative?

The only other scum game besides Donner Party is Newbie 1333. As for town, probably the most useful would be Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple. My pushes on Metal Overlord and Antilles should be of great interest to you, as should my play on d1 and d2. I realized I was going to die at some point on d3 and decided to troll Dripping Goofballs who was pushing for my mislynch. My hope was that if I died, I could take a scumread down with me. Thankfully that didn't happen, as DGB was town. I'd also suggest reading through the Dead QT, as Nero was in a scum hydra with Mastin, and I believe that he bewailed the fact that he didn't play more in line with his town game. I'm also going to throw in Amurika Mafia, as it has been mentioned several times in game, and I'm starting to feel more like I did in that game, which is to say drained and irritated that no one is listening.

I see you have not been reading the thread Bulbazak.

I've been doing my best, although given my current circumstances and the way the game moves, I am not always caught up. I try to pack my posts with as much content as I possibly can, but I can understand why some people refuse to read them (although I still think this is anti-town). What gets me is how you can then turn around and say that I am lurking (which is provably false and could have been answered by simply reading the thread or glancing at a vote count) and that I'm posting zero content (which is plainly insulting). I've tried to explain it to you nicely, but you refuse to hear any of it. And I'm not going to get into it with you, because looking at your rebuttal, there is nothing substantial to get into, and all I'd be doing would be allowing myself to fall into a useless argument, which I refuse to do, especially with how draining my current back and forth with Nero is. Getting into it with you, on something so insubstantial and trivial does nothing for the town. Now, either I'm right about this whole situation, and this is scum you trying to instigate a fight that will distract town and muddy the waters and ultimately lead town to ignore both of us, or, I'm wrong, and you are town experiencing a clash of playstyle and misinterpreting that as scummy. Either way, it is not in my best interest, or town's, to get into it with you.

[Bulbazak]

Sorry for my absence the past day or so. I needed to take a break from Mafia for awhile.

Ah, I see you are buddying CTD. Would you like help with that? (no one will get that)

I don't see any point in you not voting me when I'm not in danger of getting lynched so this whole "I'M CATERING TO CTD!" looks nothing more than buddying. What made me leapfrog over Sean?

I am not buddying CTD, and saying so is a blatant misrepresentation. CTD is my, as well as everyone else's, strongest town read. My read on him is so strong that I trust him completely and consider him def. town. Therefore, if he says that he believes he's going to die, and he wants the time to post some final thoughts, I'm going to give them to him, as that is in the town's best interest.

As for switching from Sean to you, that's simply because you're a stronger scumread than he is, and I'm getting tired of your scummy hide existing.

That's like half the point of this game; to speculate on players motives. But the question has NOTHING to do with Bcade and everything to do with AK using a "hey look over there defense".

First, you were asking me about player motives based on votes that may or may not exist, from Bacde no less. Bacde's voting history has been eratic, and I really don't want to get into this, especially in a conversation that's about YOU, not AK. Second, AK was not using a "hey look over there defense", she was asking about your motives and criteria.

This is extremely relevant to our conversation/argument. If YOU think that she was asking me about my motives then its a fair question to ask you why she felt that I should have called out Bacade on his "5th vote"

Sixteenth Votecount: (AKA, the "Times are a changin, votes are a not" votecount)
Nachomamma8 - 4 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty)

As you can see, bacde was already on the Nacho wagon and therefore his revote was NOT the 5th vote.

YOU are claiming that this was not a deflect and her asking about my motives. I'm calling bullshit on this 'cause Bacde didn't even have the 5th vote on the Nacho wagon and so Kitty's post looks like nothing more than a "hey look over there" post 'cause I find it very very hard for Mala to legit believe that I should have found his post scummy/opportunistic when he wasn't even the 5th vote.

So explain to me how she was asking about motive and criteria based on a not actual vote.

But this conversation is not about AK's motivation at all. This is about your deflection onto 3 other players. I have explained in great detail the difference between your post and AK's, which you seem intent not to listen to. You have since been trying to steer the conversation away from the original point and onto AK herself, which is in and of itself a deflection, which you have claimed you are not doing.

As for the Bacde 5th vote point, Bacde actually reemphasized his vote after AK placed her vote on Nacho. AK could have easily thought that Bacde was the 5th vote, which was why she was asking about your criteria.

................................................................

........................................

.........

This is scum faking dumb town. period.

Bulb already IS discussing AK's motivation. He's saying it was her asking about MY criteria and casting it in a pr0-town light. I feel like if he's going to defend Kitty he should understand the context of what happened.

I asked Khan why he read my post as scum. Which is actually no different then AK asking me why I wasn't scumreading Bacade's "5th vote".

I don't know the context? All I've been doing is going to great lengths to explain the context of the post. I've even shown the context, and compared AK's post with yours to show why they are different. The section of AK's post that you quoted was a small part of a whole, and her question was concerned on your criteria for judging a certain scumtell. Your post, on the other hand, is focused on that single point. You then point your finger at 3 other players, saying, "Why aren't they scummy as well?". Finally, if you want to continue to compare, AK didn't end her post with "Why am I not a town read?", which I'd say is more scummy than the entire deflection.

Are you reading this game at all?!? I accused Mollie of deflecting way back on day 1.

I hope you're not talking about what I think you are, because if so, that is just weak.

I have a question Bulb. I'm obviously a scum read for you since I "deflected" a question. Yesterday, I had felt that AK laid down a pretty opportunistic vote and she goes all "hey look at Bacde's vote!!!"

Why is my deflect scummy but hers isn't?

Also, the guy (KK) who asked me the question that I "deflected" doesn't even think I was deflecting. What do you think about that?

and I think He had another really valid point here I think. His "deflection and Mala's "deflection" are of the same flavor

How so? I don't think so. Why do you?

The big difference between this quote and what you did is in tone. Kitty's question is more about the standards of the one questioning her, rather than pointing attention towards someone who did something similar. She is also not as offended with the inquiry as you were when Khan asked his question. Finally, in this instance, she is actually being called scum by you, whereas Khan was just asking a simple question and had not made any accusation, which makes your freakout even more suspicious.

And for those who are curious themselves, here is Nero's response to Khan again:

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

You think there's a difference in our "deflects" 'cause I'm calling her scum?!? But this is still very much incorrect. The Mala head DID have a scum read on me and Mara was even ok with it until recently.

Kitty did the EXACT same thing as me. I called her fourth vote on Nacho (and her "oh I didn't know there was a Nacho wagon") opportunistic. Her questioning me about why I didn't call out Bcade for his 5th vote (despite him already being on the wagon therefore he wasn't the 5th vote) is no different then my questioning KK over why he didn't question others that were setup speculating.

Also, context says that Khan was light calling me scummy.

I agree with him here actually.

Let me get this straight. All this time that I thought I'd seen town motivation, that I read and looked over what you wrote and saw it not to be scummy, or in the case at hand, a deflection, and therefore stood up for you as a townread, after all that, you are now coming out and saying, "Oh yeah, what I did was totally scummy and a deflection." Are you saying that I read you wrong? Because I'm not getting this. I ignored you townreading and pleading with those super strong scum reads of mine that were intent on destroying the town and you as well. I ignored you going after a strong townread of mine. I ignored all of this, because I just thought that you had bad reads, and I was trusting the genuineness of your posts. Now you are saying that's for naught? I trusted my instincts and my reads and took a chance for nothing?

I really don't care if you die at this point.

CTD, you have until 2am EST. I think I have a plan to leash the vig. and protect you, but I need to make sure I work out the kinks in my head.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see how you can see Mala trying to back down from mollie and Nero trying to get people to look at us differently as two different things.

When was I talking about that? I was saying that I saw Nero's deflect and your inquiring about Nero's motives regarding his "middle of the wagon" scumtell as 2 separate things. You came back and said that they were not, which meant that you agreed with Nero that it was a scummy action.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Nero Cain

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort. What I'm asking is that CTD be protected during the night phase, since he is essentially def. town, and we'll need him in the upcoming days. With that, the ball is in your court ThAd. If you really are the vig., you should know that this upcoming night phase is likely to be the only one to prove yourself. You can shoot at whoever you think is scum or is harmful to the town (although it might not hurt to ask for suggestions from the town itself, being that you outed yourself and all), however, should you aim at CTD, you will be wasting your shot. Anybody else is okay (even me), as there is enough contention with the rest of the player list as to gain useful information from a flip.

CTD, I'd still find those reads/final thoughts useful, just in case. Should the wagon get to L-1, I'll try to keep the hammer off long enough for you to get as much information as you want out. If anybody quickhammers with this in mind, I will make it my mission to lynch them.

[Bulbazak]

You ignoring my nightless game comparison?

ok, cool :/

I thought it was a rhetorical question. In that case, I'd say that from d3 onward, I was pretty much tunnel-visioned on DGB, which didn't give me much room to reconsider some of my reads, especially the ones I considered to be extremely high. Regardless, I tend to trust my reads over anyone else's, regardless of what the eventual result is. If someone ever wants to change my mind on a read, they need to present a good argument why I should.

and you were talking about how Nero trying to deflect attention off himself and onto someone else was scummy, though when Nero brings up the fact that Mala was trying to do the exact same thing ( and from a third person's view, I can see how it can look like that) you say that it isn't the same thing.

Because I don't think it is the same thing. Are you saying that it is the same thing?

It's those two points that I think he has valid reasoning over.

See, this is what I don't get. He's saying you're scummy BECAUSE of these 2 points, and you're agreeing with him!

meanwhile why don't you give me a town-case on Khan like I had asked from people who were town-reading him

I'll do some analysis on Khan's posts and give you the results as soon as I can.

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort.

Well we have Rena the town Watcher

Watcher is an investigative role, not a protective role.

Ok CTD is your strongest townread. So he tells you to unvote Sean. And Sean has what to do with me? Nothing. ok.

CTD didn't ask anyone to unvote Sean. He just said he'd like to have the time to post some final thoughts. Seeing as how Sean was at L-3, I unvoted to give CTD that time.

Also, I never said that Sean had anything to do with you. You've been trying to misrep my posts in an effort to paint me as scummy. Then when it doesn't work, you respond with "But what does that have to do with me?", which is a further attempt to twist the conversation in your favor in order to save your scummy hide and mislynch your attacker.

As per the bolded, at one point you did state that Sean and I were "about the same level of scumminess" then I just magically jumped in scumminess which I asked you why which you failed to address.

I don't remember saying that. If I did, it was likely on a previous day. I've had you at the top my scum list since sometime in d2.

its the same thing. Both of your "strong town reads" AK and Khan said that they disagreed with you. I don't see how town gets two different things when they are the same question but then again you are scum soooo...

Actually, I'd say that Khan is the strongest out of the 2, but even so, my reads are my own, and I trust them. If I think I see something legitimately scummy, I'm going to point it out and stick to my guns, even if my strong townreads disagree with me, because they can be wrong too.

Are you reading this game at all?!? I accused Mollie of deflecting way back on day 1.

I hope you're not talking about what I think you are, because if so, that is just weak.

That you are ignoring yet another deflect?

If you are talking about the back and forth with B&B, I didn't see a deflect there. Besides, I found that whole argument as both stupid and a distraction, and I don't want you to derail the conversation yet again in an effort to avoid talking about you in favor of someone else.

Vote Nero Cain

What happened to not voting until CTD was done?

I thought I had a plan to keep him alive during the night phase, thus dealing with the problem at hand. I gave him a deadline at which to post, and then when he didn't post, I voted and gave the plan that would make such a measure on his part unnecessary. I even offered to allow him time to post such thoughts at L-1 if he deemed it necessary. Besides, I wasn't going to hold off forever if he deigned not to post. I just felt that given the plan, now was the best time to revote.

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort. What I'm asking is that CTD be protected during the night phase, since he is essentially def. town, and we'll need him in the upcoming days.

Who was it the called directing night actions scummy?

Our claimed vig. has expressed interest in killing the universal town read, which many have expressed their disapproval of, yet you want to do nothing?

With that, the ball is in your court ThAd. If you really are the vig., you should know that this upcoming night phase is likely to be the only one to prove yourself. You can shoot at whoever you think is scum or is harmful to the town (although it might not hurt to ask for suggestions from the town itself, being that you outed yourself and all), however, should you aim at CTD, you will be wasting your shot. Anybody else is okay (even me), as there is enough contention with the rest of the player list as to gain useful information from a flip.

This a big ball of mindless shadowing.

#1 The whole Thad needs to shoot to prove himself thing has already been brought up AND its been brought up why this is not a good idea.
#2 CTD thinks I'm scummy as fuck for wanting to leash THAD and not doing anything. Yet you want to leash Thad and the vig list is "everyone sans CTD". Which is doing about just as much as me. This looks like a pile of bullshit 'cause it ignores all of YOUR town reads. AK and Khan are no longer strong town reads? Why on earth would town be ok with his town reads getting killed? And its just incredibly lazy.

1.) Who said it was not a good idea? The whole reason he avoided being lynched was due to his vig. claim, and it has been stated multiple times that his survival tomorrow is dependent on what happens tonight.

2.) CTD thinks you're scummy, because while you say that the vig. needs to be controlled by the town, you do nothing to ensure that it happens. Then, when I see a problem with the vig. wanting to kill def. town, and I come up with a way to stop it, suddenly I'm scummy for doing what you refused to do? To be fair, I'd like to put more restrictions on the vig., and give him a list of who and who not to lynch. However, that'd be crossing a line, as it is the job of the town as a whole to do such a thing if it deems necessary. I understand that every slot besides CTD's is under contention in some way atm. Even Khan and Nacho, who I consider to be 2 of my strongest townreads, are being read as scum by somebody. Therefore, I understand that any kill other than CTD will give town useful information on which to move forward. In Khan's case, it would allow AK to reevaluate her reads, which she desperately needs to do. And Nacho's flip would put the game in perspective for a good number of people. Now, if town wants to take my plan a step further and seek to guide the claimed vig., which given the circumstances it has every right to, then I will join in and help with that process. Otherwise, I have at least done my part to keep def. town alive.

On to page 179.

[Bulbazak]

So....Nero is scum for wanting to leash Thad and now both you and Bulb want to sheep my leash plan?!?

What plan are we trying to sheep? You said, "We should leash the vig." and then proceeded to do absolutely nothing. I said, "The vig. is being anti-town by wanting to shoot town. Something should be done." I then got up and did something about it.

My thoughts from the vote history:
Red Ryu was either killed because Red Mafia was looking to kill Blue Mafia, or Red Mafia wanted to get rid of a strong townie.
The fact that his wagon got to 6(?) votes at one point means he couldn't have been too townie, so he was probably killed while being scumhunted by Red Mafia.

Since I think that rather than waste thier kill on the Blue mafia team if they can help it, Red Mafia would first try, in some way shape or form, to lynch Blue mafia if they can.

This means, common sense-wise, one of the following is

Red Mafia

:
Bulbazak
penguin_alien
Kublai Khan
Human Destroyer
ArcAngel9

and out of this you somehow don't think Ceph can be in there? considering all his day 2 actions?

Translation: "Hey, look at Ceph, he's scummy right? We should totally lynch him."

Vote Nero Cain

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort. What I'm asking is that CTD be protected during the night phase, since he is essentially def. town, and we'll need him in the upcoming days. With that, the ball is in your court ThAd. If you really are the vig., you should know that this upcoming night phase is likely to be the only one to prove yourself. You can shoot at whoever you think is scum or is harmful to the town (although it might not hurt to ask for suggestions from the town itself, being that you outed yourself and all), however, should you aim at CTD, you will be wasting your shot. Anybody else is okay (even me), as there is enough contention with the rest of the player list as to gain useful information from a flip.

CTD, I'd still find those reads/final thoughts useful, just in case. Should the wagon get to L-1, I'll try to keep the hammer off long enough for you to get as much information as you want out. If anybody quickhammers with this in mind, I will make it my mission to lynch them.

Don't try to direct night actions. I think Nero might be right about you, you're a bad egg.

The other 2 options were to do nothing and let town die, or to try to policy lynch the anti-town claimed vig, since at this point, you're no better than scum. I decided to come up with a better option that would both protect town and allow them to make use of their vig. Do you have a problem with helping the town?

Maybe this will help: Explain the CTD-scum case to me.

[Bulbazak]

Explain to me the ctd town case.

1.) Although I disagreed for his call for a mass claim, he used the information from the discussion to scumhunt and get reads, which I have a hard time believing scum would do.

2.) His reasoning for outing his neighborhood due to Syryana's flip, and the subsequent embarrassment, read as genuine town motivation. He sincerely thought he was doing the right thing for the town. There was not the slightest hint of insincerity in what he said and how he did it.

3.) He has been actively and genuinely scumhunting. Reading his posts, I have no doubt that they are town motivated and that he wants to actually find scum.

CTD-scum case. Go.

Are you saying that townies should not show any enthusiasm in their pursuit of scum or what?

obviously not, but I do find Arc to be a lynch monger because she is bored.

I guess I'm just confused by some of the votes on me as well. I havn't heard very many reasons except yours desp for me being scum, what is also curious is that most of the posts that have a vote on me, ends up talking about someone else for the majority of it. I wish people would just come out and say they are sheeping you desp.

Backpedaling, weak push on another player ("Lynch them instead"), and scum flail.

As I've said, my reasons for thinking Sean is scum are my own, and I have been stating them since d1. He is an active lurker who only pops in to stir the pot. He has actually done zero scumhunting. The closest he's came was when he went over Syryana's posts, but as I pointed out at the time, that was simply IIoA. After I pointed out that he didn't come away with anything in regards to who's scum, he immediately says, "Cephrir's scum." and proceeds to vote him. His vote on Cephrir was not due to any original reasoning, but was simply a way to try to pacify me. I'm sure other people have their reasons for voting him, so this "Everybody is just sheeping Desp." is just crap.

So your'e saying that others are giving lame reasons

not lame reasons, no reasons, plus the majority of the content in the voting posts arn't even about me. You don't find that curious at all arc? put aside your blood thirst for a moment and analyze that.

Again, scum flail.

P-edit: I have a meeting to go to. I'll deal with Nero's wall of misreps when I get back.

[Bulbazak]

ok so CTD comes in and is all like "w8 guiz, I has moar 2 post about" You unvote 'cause he was apparently at L-1 with intent to hammer (yes I'm being sarcastic here.) But I highly doubt that Sean would have been hammered. So I don't see the reason for your unvote.

Sean's wagon was at L-3 at the time, and it had been growing very quickly. There was no reason at the time to think that he wouldn't be lynched soon.

And then a derp wagon pops up on me. My wagon

peaked

at 6 and you posted SEVERAL times before I even reached 6 so no, I don't buy your explanation that you didn't vote me 'cause you wanted CTD to finish posting 'cause I was never in any real danger of being lynched.

First, the "oh you thought I was scummy, yet you had your vote somewhere else or didn't vote me" logic for me being scum is pitiful and bad. I've had you as a scum read, and have stated as much since the end of d1, and I was hoping my arguments would show people how scummy you are. Saying, "Well he isn't voting me right now. Scum!", when actually reading will show why that isn't the case, turns that entire bad argument into a misrep, and is therefore scummy. After having unvoted another scum read to allow my strongest town read the time to post, I wasn't simply going to immediately go, "Hey, my other scum read is getting run up. Let's forget everything I just said and did and vote for him.". And again, you are using what you know now, and trying to use that as a reason to say I'm scummy ("I was never in any danger of being lynched. And Bulba knew that, seeing as he can read the future, and therefore he didn't vote me."). Again, at the time, there was no reason to think that your wagon wouldn't continue to grow and go through. I was not going to jump on another growing wagon after I had already gotten off the last one to give someone time to post, especially when that person hadn't posted what he said he would.

And then getting called out on buddying CTD, you wuss out and go back on your word and vote me before CTD finishes posting?

I had waited several days and was getting tired of waiting any longer, plus I had figured out a way to keep my top town read alive. Of course I revoted.

As per the bolded, at one point you did state that Sean and I were "about the same level of scumminess" then I just magically jumped in scumminess which I asked you why which you failed to address.

I don't remember saying that. If I did, it was likely on a previous day. I've had you at the top my scum list since sometime in d2.

Do you normally forget things that you've said quite recently?

Why would I, then, immediately turn around and vote you,

who was reaching the same levels as Seanald

, after I had unvoted in the first place in order to give CTD more time? That's why I asked CTD if he had finished making his final posts, especially since I saw him not only voting you, but moaning about your wagon slowing down. As soon as I find out he's finished with what he needed to do, I will be voting for you, as my

scumread on your slot is stronger.

Oh look, a blatant misrep. The first bolded section has nothing to do with levels of scumminess. It has to do with the amount of people on the wagons. I was saying that your wagon had almost the same amount as Seanald's did when I unvoted to give CTD more time. Between the 2 of you, my scumread on you is stronger, and it has been for awhile. Nice try on the misrep, though.

Are you reading this game at all?!? I accused Mollie of deflecting way back on day 1.

I hope you're not talking about what I think you are, because if so, that is just weak.

That you are ignoring yet another deflect?

If you are talking about the back and forth with B&B, I didn't see a deflect there. Besides, I found that whole argument as both stupid and a distraction, and I don't want you to derail the conversation yet again in an effort to avoid talking about you in favor of someone else.

Tell me why do I read as independent as opposed to scum? Can't hunt your own team?

nero are you bored

cos that was pretty dumb even for you

This is probably the only true deflection in the game. I find it kinda funny that a guy that thinks deflections are soooo scummy that you are totally ignoring this one while calling AK's pro-town and mine scummy...despite being the only one to answer his question.

I would probably agree that Mollie is dodging the issue, but I wouldn't call that a deflect, as she didn't try to throw suspicion elsewhere.

Also, your strawmanning me on wanting discussion is scummy and noted. I want to talk about your slot and your motivations, not on what your hobbies are or what you had for dinner.

1. ???? So...if he is actually a vig he should have not claimed vig? Whats your point? There's several reasons why tonight is not enough time but I do agree that Thad is an issue that needs to be worked out well before lylo and we are still a ways from lylo unless you have some information to share with us.

My issue is that you are trying to paint me as scummy for voicing what has been wildly accepted during this day phase: That ThAd's survival going forward is dependent on his actions tonight. Therefore, it is in ThAd's best interest, if he's the vig., to serve the town as best as he can. Shooting the universal town read because said town read looked at him funny is not the way to do it.

2. Thad already knows how I feel about him and beyond that there's NOTHING to do. If Thad tells my where he lives I can buy an actual leash and go and put it on him, would that make ya'll feel better? I've been giving my reads, and I still plan on giving a full reads list before deadline. I don't know why CTD is rushing me and yelling at me to out my list when there's still lots of time left on the clock.

So your plan is to sit on your hands and do nothing, while a claimed vig. has expressed intent to essentially go rogue and shoot def. town? And then you will what, scowl at him? By that point it's already too late. You talk about controlling the vig., but yet you do absolutely nothing to do so. Then, when somebody else tries to do what you refuse to, and keep the vig. from shooting town, you throw your hands up in the air and yell, "Scum!". Seriously, where is the town motivation in that?

Backpedaling, weak push on another player ("Lynch them instead"), and scum flail.

you do realize none of that was in my post right?

Backpedaling:

You really shouldn't act so eager arc, cuz you just sound like you dont actually give a shit about who dies just as long as someone dies.

Why is this guy still alive?

Ok. Explain to me desp how that's sooo condemning then. Its not a wrong statement

Are you saying that townies should not show any enthusiasm in their pursuit of scum or what?

obviously not

Weak push on another player ("Lynch them instead"):

You really shouldn't act so eager arc, cuz you just sound like you dont actually give a shit about who dies just as long as someone dies.

but I do find Arc to be a lynch monger because she is bored.

This is a very weak push. He was trying to imply that AA9 wanted any lynch, no matter who it was, which would suggest a PL on an anti-town player. He then backpedals when confronted. "Oh no, that wasn't what I meant at all."

Scum flail:

I guess I'm just confused by some of the votes on me as well. I havn't heard very many reasons except yours desp for me being scum, what is also curious is that most of the posts that have a vote on me, ends up talking about someone else for the majority of it. I wish people would just come out and say they are sheeping you desp.

Nero being scum doesn't stop him from making some pretty compelling points against Bulbazak. I do have a hard time swallowing his ThAd plan in particular. I don't consider myself an indispensable member of the town and I don't see why he would, strongest town read or not. Directing protective roles is just awful on every front. Last I knew he was questioning the truthfulness of the vig-claim, and on the whole, I struggle seeing this as a way a pro-town player would address the issue.

What don't you like about the plan? The other 2 option were to allow my strongest town read, one that is universally shared, to be killed by a rogue vig., whose only reasoning for wanting to shoot you was that you called him out, or to try to PL the vig., which would deprive town of one of its PRs. I decided to find another solution that allowed for some sort of middle ground. At this point, I consider you as def. town, and as such, I'd rather not lose you, especially not to one of the town's own PRs. Therefore, the plan which involved directing a protective role, who probably should have been planning on protecting you already, given the circumstances. With that considered, it becomes less about directing an unknown PR, and more about redirecting a known one, by telling him that should he choose to act against the best interest of the town, then he would have wasted one of his limited shots.

[Bulbazak]

and considering you just blatantly misreped the entire situation between me and arc, Im joining your wagon.

VOTE: Bulb

Then explain to me where you were going with the "Oh, Arc just wants a lynch. She's a lynch monger and if she's not careful, people will think that she's not doing so out of town motivation." There are only 2 possibilities: 1.) You were soft pushing her as a possible counter to your wagon in a way that your hands could be clean if she went down. 2.) You were trying to placate her. "Don't lynch me. Other players don't know you like I do. They may not think you're town, but I do. We're alike. etc." Which is it?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, what is yur read on Rena?

Town. I've never understood the case against her.

Assume 4 Bluescum; PV/Desperado
Assume 4 Redscum: Rena/Bulba/Ceph/AK

Why are you assuming that there are 4 scum per team?

He might be scumhunting. Scumhunting the other team. Amirite?!

That's not a case. A real case on CTD, if you don't mind.

Nero, Seanald or Bulb?

I really hate you all right now. No joke

Nero and Sean are both scum. Slaandar is scum as well, due to the 8 scum comment.

[Bulbazak]

Slaandar is scum as well, due to the 8 scum comment.

Do amuse me with your explanation.

You never explained why you think there are 8 scum in this game. The typical scum to town ratio is 1:3, which would make the number of scum in this game 6. Using that logic, there would be 3 scum per team in a multiball situation, which we seem to be in. However, you assume that there is 4. The only way I could see anyone coming to this conclusion is if they were on a scum team and

knew

that there were 4 players on the team, which means that they would anticipate 8 scum. Therefore, your statement stating that there are 4 on each team is a scumslip.

[Bulbazak]

How come you never said anything with Bacde said there was one bluescum left?

If we are assuming typical scum:town ratios, saying there was only 1 blue scum left going into d3 after 2 blue scum flips is understandable. If Slaandar is scum, Bacde is town.

[Bulbazak]

Are you saying that Bacde is scum on a 4 person team, and his first thought was "I bet our teams are uneven!"? Chances are that he'd assume the same number per team, and be happy if he was wrong. Now I guess there is always the possibility that he knew such things but didn't betray such knowledge, but even so, saying that there is 1 blue scum left after 2 have died is actually understandable, seeing as how anybody who is doing any sort of basic setup spec is going to come to the same conclusion.

[Bulbazak]

So anyone who assumes a 3-person scum teams is town, but assuming a 4-person scum team is scum. Because typical multiball theory is two 3-person scum teams, yes?

Standard setup spec would assume 6 scum in a 24 player setup, and in the event of multiball, even scum teams.

What other evidence is there that Slandaar is scum?

I haven't liked some of his pushes, and he isn't scumhunting to the degree I'd expect. He's putting out an occasional case, yes, but they tend to be weak and he doesn't push them very hard. I get the sense that he's a better scumhunter than he is displaying in this game. It's almost like he's putting in enough effort for it to look like he's scumhunting at a glance, but for the most part he's trying to stay out of the town's eye.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak - Kinda vague, though I agree with the charge of active lurking.

It's kinda what I'm remembering given the sleep-addled state of my brain. I can probably go through his ISO later and find specific quotes that pinged me, but from what I remembered, it was that he was not really scumhunting.

[Bulbazak]

Also, why do you suspect CTD?

Unvote

I need to sleep on this and review what was said in the morning.

[Bulbazak]

You never explained why you think there are 8 scum in this game.

I did actually.

So your reason when previously asked about it was that you thought PV and Desp. were on a scumteam together, even though they are both in separate neighborhoods in a normal game? And the reasoning for that was, "I have reasoning, but I don't feel like saying what it is and backing up my absurd accusation which I just made up."? Yeah, not buying it.

The typical scum to town ratio is 1:3, which would make the number of scum in this game 6. Using that logic, there would be 3 scum per team in a multiball situation, which we seem to be in. However, you assume that there is 4. The only way I could see anyone coming to this conclusion is if they were on a scum team and

knew

that there were 4 players on the team, which means that they would anticipate 8 scum. Therefore, your statement stating that there are 4 on each team is a scumslip.

4 is a completely reasonable proposition. Always best to assume the worst scenario ie the most scum possible there is no negative side effects where with assuming lower numbers there can be.

Actually, it's in town's best interest to assume the best case scenario, i.e. Shaheed's Law, and in the event that we're wrong, we can always recalibrate on the fly. Scum tends to congregate on preparing for the town's worst case scenario, since that is what they need in order to win. Therefore, assume 1 team until it becomes evident that it's multiball, and assume a ratio of 1:3 until it becomes evident that you're wrong. Scum will react in the opposite way, and then we can catch them and lynch them.

I have said who the scum are I can't force people to vote them.

I think it's funny that you have been calling me scum all game for saying something similar, and then when you are called out on doing little scumhunting, your reasoning is, "Well, I can't make people do anything.".

Tell me why you are not voting Rena who is the most obvious scum I have ever seen? Perhaps you can direct me to her amazing scumhunting or perhaps give me a reason she is not just scum coasting on her PR claim?

Do explain why you townread her one more time, I must have missed it previously.

Her posts have felt genuine and have given me an overall town feel. I have never understood the case on her, and whenever I asked people to elaborate on it, they refused to do so. As far as I understand, it's based on Fuzzy's early posts, which are taken out of context given the nature of ISOs. If anybody has anything more than that, I'd like to hear it.

Vote Slaandar

Nero, do you want to join me in lynching scum?

[Bulbazak]

Slandaar is a good lynch, I still don't trust you as town though.

You don't have to trust me. You just have to lynch scum.

I think your "Nero deflected but no one else did!!" is silly and scummy

I disagreed with your calling what AK did a deflection, and I explained why (although AK doesn't seem to agree with me, so it's more of a null point now). I also didn't think what Mollie did was a deflection, although I do think it was a dodge. That one may just be a simple difference in definitions.

I do feel that you categorizing my argument as "Nero deflected but no one else did" is a misrepresentation of my entire argument. Given what's happened recently, I'm unsure whether that is actually scummy or just you being butthurt.

and that whole "Thad can vig anyone but CTD" seems incredibly lazy.

I was more interested in saving def. town than directing the vig. I think now that CTD has been taken away as an option, ThAd can make a better choice for the town. At least you came through with the vig. pool, and, with the exception of Rena, I approve.

At the very least, KK, Bacde and Nacho are like the absolute worst vig targets in the game

I disagree. Khan's defense of Slaandar was strange, and he's been suspected by AK, and to a degree Ffullisade. Bacde or Nacho being viged would shed some light on a more contentious part of the game and would allow town to finally unify like it needs to.

[Bulbazak]

Why can't 2 bluescum be in 2 different neighbourhoods Bulba?

Because it would be unbalanced and give them an advantage over both town and the other team.

I have reasoning actually... Desp made case on DLG, his best contribution of the Day which he dropped without ever revisiting he also made some weak accusations towards Ryu without following up. DLG made case on Ryu and was adamant to lynch Ryu (see previous case) but dropped it without a word. Then PV comes in and voted Oversoul D1 out of the blue over Desp; PV who doesn't like to bus.

That's pretty weak, actually. IIRC, Desp. dropped DLG to focus on Nacho, by which point another player replaced into the slot. Also, PV not attacking who his predecessor attacked is not alignment indicative. This looks more like you made up a reason on the fly to justify your previous reason that you made up on the fly.

Ugh it really doesn't matter than much its such a pointless thing to argue, if you assume the higher number you avoid issues later. That is literally the only difference so its better. There is no reason to assume 3/3 instead of 4/4. I have lots of scum reads and they fit nicely in 4/4 so I assume 4 its just logical.

So your new reason to suspect 8 scum players is that you don't want to give up scumreads? If that was the case, I would have thought that there were still 10 scum left as I entered this day phase, instead of acknowledging that I was probably wrong about some of my reads and still needed to work through them.

I think it's funny that you have been calling me scum all game for saying something similar, and then when you are called out on doing little scumhunting, your reasoning is, "Well, I can't make people do anything.".

I have done plenty of scumhunting thanks, but after making a case and showing someone is scum what more can one do? Rewrite the case with pretty colours?

Probably one of the best cases you've made all game was on PV, and that was actually made as a way to lynch his neighbor, ThAd, who was actually under heat at the time. So sorry, I don't buy the "I've done plenty of scumhunting" line, especially coupled with "I can't make people do anything", which is hypocritical, since you've been attacking me for saying the same thing.

You on the other hand don't make cases you just argue innane things repetedly. Huge difference.

If you think that's what I've been doing, then you are highly mistaken. I've been hounding various players on things that I find scummy. Sure I might not make a pretty point by point case, but I still do my best to find scum and reveal them to the town. Meanwhile, you spent 2 whole day phases just pointlessly arguing with Thor on semantics. And then you have the audacity to accuse me about arguing inane things?

Need more votes on Slaandar-scum!

[Bulbazak]

Why can't 2 bluescum be in 2 different neighbourhoods Bulba?

Because it would be unbalanced and give them an advantage over both town and the other team.

Scumslip

Common sense.

How does Bulb know red don't have 2 scum in hoods?

Its like you are redscum Bulb

Because either team having more than 1 scum in the neighborhoods would be unbalanced. Seriously, your attacks are getting weaker and more desperate.

[Bulbazak]

He is arguing there can't be 2 bluescum in the hoods because

Because it would be unbalanced

and give them an advantage over both town and the other team

.

It would be unfair on poor redscum.

And how could he know that?

I said that either scum team having more than one scum in neighborhoods would be

unbalanced

, which is key, especially since this game was reviewed so many times. I also was not putting emphasis on the other scum team, seeing as how I also mentioned how it would disadvantage town as well. Funny how you conveniently skipped that.

VOTE: bulba

lets do this

Thanks for admitting that you're buddies with Slandaar.

@ Cephrir & Desperado: Both of your lynches are bad and are not happening today. Come join me on Slandaar-scum.

Also wanted to announce that the computer issues have finally been straightened out.

@Mod: I am no longer V/LA on weekends.

[Bulbazak]

Blech, I'd rather lynch ThAdmiral than Bulbazak, although Seanald is preferable to both. Bulbazak's implying that there couldn't be more than one red scum among the neighborhoods is unsettling, though. Bulbazak, why is it not feasible to have two scum-town neighborhoods and one scum-scum neighborhood, for example? Or even two scum-scum neighborhoods? Given that we don't know the complete set-up, why are you so certain that is unbalanced?

Putting more than 1 scum from a scum team into the various neighborhoods shifts the balance of power in favor of that team. Given the number of people that reviewed this game, I'm assuming that the distribution of roles in neighborhoods was already determined before the game began. Therefore, 1 scum team will not have more members in a neighborhood than the other team.

I've ruled out scum-scum neighborhoods via PoE. I've come to accept that ThAd is probably the vig., and Desperado's posts as of late have me reading him as town, not to mention my townread of CTD. This means that there is at least 1 town in every neighborhood. That would leave 2 scum in Slandaar, PV, and Seanald. Cephrir said that PV is unlikely to be scum due to ThAd being a killing role, and I agree, as that'd put 1 killing role in every neighborhood (balance). This leaves Slandaar and Seanald as scum from different teams. Slandaar's slip has led from this being theoretical to practical. I say that we lynch Slandaar today, Seanald tomorrow, and then work from there.

[Bulbazak]

Strongly dislike most of Bulba's arguments against Slandaar, particularly the "4 scum per team" argument:

The typical scum to town ratio is 1:3, which would make the number of scum in this game 6. Using that logic, there would be 3 scum per team in a multiball situation, which we seem to be in. However, you assume that there is 4.

The only way I could see anyone coming to this conclusion is if they were on a scum team and knew that there were 4 players on the team

, which means that they would anticipate 8 scum. Therefore, your statement stating that there are 4 on each team is a scumslip.

So the only way Bulba can make sense of the situation is that Slandaar is himself on a 4-man scum team. But if that is his suspicion, why then is it impossible for a pro-town player (i.e. Slandaar) to make the assumption that we are dealing with 4-man scum teams? It's a completely illogical and circular argument and so far removed from being a scumslip it's not even funny.

How would he come up with such a number? 6 is understandable, given the 1:3 ratio, but pulling 8 out of thin air is not. The question that should be asked is: Why did he pick 8 scum rather than 6? His answer is that there were too many people that he wanted to call scum, so he just picked a bigger number, which is a crap explanation. Seriously, the first thought that should be entering into a town player's head in that instance is "I have too many scumspects. Not all of them are right.", not "I have too many scumspects. There must be more scum in the game than normal."

Also, when has Slandaar been "pro-town"?

He then went on to argue that it's better for town to assume the best-case scenario of 3-man scumteams, which is a highly debatable theory stance at best, but the implication was that only scum would take the worst-case scenario approach, and that simply doesn't hold any water.

Scum would assume the worst case scenario for town, not necessarily the worst case scenario for them. That's why scum will consider lylo before town will, because they have to make it to lylo, where town doesn't want to. Therefore, if someone is making a worst case scenario assumption about the setup, they're most likely not town, but scum who actually has prior knowledge about the setup.

Fact is that scum:town ratios are not set in stone and can be balanced by the power-level of the town. This line of attack is completely cooked up.

Still, there tend to be typical expected scum:town ratios, 1:3 being the main one. I'm not saying that all games follow them, I'm just saying that anybody being sure otherwise in a closed setup should be met with suspicion.

I have my own reservations about Slandaar.

Funny, you're not showing it.

I think his play today has been noticeably different from the first 2 days, he's been a much less forceful presence and I strongly disagree with several of his reads. I do not however see this as a strong indication of him being scum in itself and no one has pointed out any actions of his that clearly read as scum-motivated to my knowledge.

You previously called him a "pro-town player", but now you seem doubtful about his alignment. This whole paragraph reads a little wishy washy to me.

Balance speculation wrt to the neighborhoods should come into consideration, but not before we actually

know

anything solid based on flips.

So that precludes me thinking that Slandaar is scum? Regardless of flips atm, we can make a pretty good guess about how neighborhoods are balanced given the setup right now. Given what we know so far, 3 neighborhoods, each with a killing role (one each for blue/red/town), makes sense from a balance point of view. After Slandaar's scum flip, I will use this information accordingly to lynch the other scum neighbor.

Bulba's case against Slandaar is all assumptions, some of which don't make sense to me.

What doesn't make sense? You can always ask me instead of going "I don't understand. Scum!".

If he was doubtful of ThAd's claim before, I don't see what happened to change his mind

The more I thought about it, the harder time I had seeing ThAd being scum fake claiming vig., mostly due to his attitude and willingness not to play ball with the town. I would think that scum in such a position would want to please the town and get on their good side, i.e. gain towncred. ThAd, however, is not interested in this at all. Don't get me wrong, I still think he's dangerous for the town, and I spent an inconsiderable amount of time trying to decide if he should be policy lynched, which is big for me, because I don't really care for PLs.

I get the strong impression that he's tailoring his assumptions to the desired conclusion, and not the other way around.

How does that make me scum?

Lastly, I agree that Bulba's "two blue neighbors would be unfair to red" looks like a slip. He's tried to play it down by stating that "unfair to town" was his main point and "unfair to red" merely a balance after-thought, but i really don't think that fairness between scum-teams should ever enter a town-player's mind at all.

I never said that! I said that either team having more than 2 scum in the neighborhoods would be

unbalanced

. And given that this game was overly reviewed, whether or not something is balanced should come into consideration.

Where is it written that all neighborhoods must be "balanced" against each other? You're making the assumption that mirroring is the only way to balance a single aspect of a game setup, and even then you're leaving out possible ideas (say.. one neighborhood is a red/blue pairing).

Again, given how often this setup was reviewed, I'd say that the neighborhoods are likely balanced. I would say that the composition of the neighborhoods were determined beforehand, and the players were simply placed in those roles, rather than players placed into neighborhoods and then given the roles. Again, I ruled out other possible combinations via PoE. Now if you want to argue that my PoE is wrong, I'm all ears.

mastin2 has been a player and a mod for a long time and can certainly balance a PR heavier Scum Team A with Scum Team B having a say in who the vig targets.

Are you suggesting that one team has more PRs on it and is stronger than another team?

Here is my wagon broken down

PV: I am voting Slandar because he has caught me.
Bulbazak: I am voting Slandaar because lol 4 scum. I make lots of assumptions too that make no sense but 4 scum? die.
Rena: Gotta save my buddy Bulbazak! Hope noone looks into my reasoning though! Also Slandaar has caught me.
AK: Well Gotta get rid of Slandaar he caught 2 of my buddies and Me!

Sums up things adequately.

So people start to see you as scummy, and your first reaction is to call everyone on your wagon scum?

So nero and bulba are scum together. Both attacking each other hardcore, then magically ending up on the same bullshit wagon.

Nero's reaction to Slandaar's slip made me reconsider my read on him. I started flashing back to Metal Overlord in Voided's nightless game. I'm more than willing to give him a break in order to lynch scum.

Nero's reasoning is even more terrible and illustrates a glaring flaw in bulba's as well: if thez already slipped that there are 7 to 8 scum

To be honest, I forgot that Thez had said that until Nero brought it up. I'm assuming almost everyone else has as well, since we've never really seriously discussed such a possibility.

how is it scummy for Slandaar to go with this assumption as town?

Again, I don't think anybody seriously considered what Thez said, and we were still considering 2 3-man scum teams. Slandaar then magically appears and says there are 2 4-man scum teams, yet he never saw fit to say something before when everybody was discussing 3-man scum teams? I don't see him doing that as town. At the very least he'd say, "You know, I think you may be wrong there.", but he never did. He slipped intimate knowledge about the setup that he shouldn't have known as town. Deal with it.

Also, how is Nero scummy for saying that we're likely in multi-ball before it became common knowledge, yet Slandaar is not scummy for saying that we are dealing with 2 4-man scum teams without any indication that he's right?

Bulb v Slandaar is looks way more like Bulb v Molla than anything in NY 163.

How so?

I also do not care who dies between Bulb and Slan 'cause I want both gone before lylo.

Why are you even thinking about Lylo?!?

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

Backpedal ahoy!

Nevermind, Nero is still scum.

[Bulbazak]

Don't you find that even remotely suspicious?

What? Scum arguing that I'm scum? Given that scum try to wagon me every game, I'm not particularly surprised.

[Bulbazak]

@ Khan: If you think I'm mistaken somewhere, then let's discuss where I might be mistaken. Are there possibilities that you think are likely that I'm missing, and if so why? Also, what are your thoughts on Slandaar-scum? We're getting close to deadline, so I'd like to know.

@CTD: Your main reasons for thinking I'm scum are my plan for leashing the vig., which I've explained my reasonings for, you disagreeing with my arguments, and Slandaar's misrep of my posts. Am I wrong? Why do you refuse to talk about what you disagree with and seek to discover my motivation? Why are my arguments scummy and not evidence of succumbing to some logical error?

@Desperado: What are your thoughts on scum distribution in the neighborhoods? Seeing as how you have a scumread on Seanald, I've assumed you've thought of it.

@Mod: Can we have an updated vote count?

[Bulbazak]

The following need to take a stance on the 2 wagons: Ffullisade, Kublai Khan, Penguin_alien, Nachomamma8.

[Bulbazak]

For example, you don't seem to have considered the possibility of two scum teams with different PRs and/or sizes. If you really want to follow the thought train of "lots of reviewers therefore..." then you should keep in mind that non-mirrored scum teams are incredibly tricky to balance.

See, I was a little confused here. You seem to be saying that I haven't considered non-mirrored teams in my speculation, but then go on to call non-mirrored teams unbalanced (Well, "incredibly tricky to balance", but when talking about setup spec, it's essentially the same thing.), which seems to support my original supposition. Am I missing something here, and if so, can you expand on this point?

@Desperado: Do you disagree that a scum flip in the neighborhoods would not clear things up as far as scumhunting goes, especially if, as we suppose, there's another scum in the neighborhoods as well?

[Bulbazak]

There's no reason to assume both hypothetical scum teams should get one member each in a neighborhood other than you think it would be balanced, despite several players telling you that there are other ways to balance a game besides "total equality in everything."

So in a game where we need to make connections to find scum, you're refusing to make connections? Balanced neighborhoods make sense from a setup point of view, and a scum flip from Slandaar would help bolster your Seanald case. If you don't think this is the case, then you need to explain why.

Why do you think he's staying on Rena vs. putting Bulb to L1?

Because 1.) He'd be putting me at L-2, not L-1, and 2.) he knows that I'll flip town, and he doesn't want to be a part of the wagon and experience the backlash tomorrow.

You still need to answer this:

Bulb v Slandaar is looks way more like Bulb v Molla than anything in NY 163.

How so?

Also, while your at it, give me the full Bulb-scum case.

See, I was a little confused here. You seem to be saying that I haven't considered non-mirrored teams in my speculation, but then go on to call non-mirrored teams unbalanced (Well, "incredibly tricky to balance", but when talking about setup spec, it's essentially the same thing.), which seems to support my original supposition. Am I missing something here, and if so, can you expand on this point?

"tricky to balance" does not mean the same thing as "unbalanced, therefore disregard". That's where your problem lies.

Ok, what do you think we are likely looking at?

[Bulbazak]

Note: List is from towniest to scummiest

Town

Rena
CrashTextDummy
PeregrineV
Nachomamma8
Cephrir
Kublai Khan
Desperado
ThAdmiral (Note: Town-PR, but not pro-town)

Null

Amethyst Kitty (Probably town, but I've stopped caring at this point.)
Bacde (Keep flip flopping on him.)
Human Destroyer (Been awhile. I need to review him again. Truest null on the list.)
ArcAngel9 (Keep flip flopping on her, but then again, I have a hard time reading her and understanding her motivations. Don't let her get to endgame.)
Penguin_alien (There were a few things that made me think scum, but, with the exception of her soft defense of Thez, I forget what they were. I need to review her again. Definitely not a strong scum read.)

Scum

Ffullisade
Nero Cain
Seanald
Slandaar

If things don't reverse, I'll post some more final thoughts in a bit.

[Bulbazak]

You can't be serious with this. 50% of my Seanald case is his connections to the flipped bluescum--you know, the people we know for sure were scum. The "connections" that you are trying to find in the neighborhoods aren't based on anything except your personal opinion of what would make the neighborhoods balanced in the context of the setup that you shouldn't know anything about other than your role. Making determinations on what would be "balanced" in the neighborhoods isn't coming from a town mindset at all.

How is it not coming from a town mindset? I'm looking at 3 neighborhoods, saying that 1 is likely town-town, and the other 2 town-scum, albeit from different teams. ThAd's vig. claim adds another layer to this by suggesting that the town's killing role is in a neighborhood too, making his nieghborhood the likely town-town one. If I'm right about this, that would actually make scum easier to find after a flip, not harder, and I'm clearing more players than accusing. Yet you are calling such behavior scummy, even though it flies in the face of the scum's win condition. So explain, why is it scummy to want to make finding scum easier, rather than harder?

Because 1.) He'd be putting me at L-2, not L-1, and 2.) he knows that I'll flip town, and he doesn't want to be a part of the wagon and experience the backlash tomorrow.

Why would he get backlash for putting a vote on his direct counterwagon?

Because doing so would be opportunistic, which would be noticed after my flip. Scum doesn't want to be noticed, and him voting for his counterwagon, simply because it is his counterwagon, would give him too much attention.

Your push on Metal actually made sense. Your pushes on Molla and now Slandaar...don't.

Actually, my push on MO was probably more nitpicky than my case here, and it was wrong. Why don't you think my case on Slandaar makes sense?

The full Bulb case is that your approach to this game has been to comb everyone's posts for scumslips

It's funny that you think I am "combing" the game, especially when I've had a hard time remembering some of the smaller details and think of the game in large strokes.

antagonize whoever you find into a quote war

The only ones I have gotten in quote wars with were scumreads. It creates discussion, which I use to bolster my reads.

and then pass that off as legitimate scumhunting.

That's how I scumhunt. Deal with it. Are you sure you're not mistaking a playstyle clash for scum play?

P-edit: She claimed a town PR, and it lines up with my read on her.

[Bulbazak]

I liked her posts d1 and d2. Granted, it's probably more of a gut read, but I feel rather strongly about it. I'm really not seeing scum intent. Plus, whenever I ask anybody to explain the case on her, they refuse to do so.

[Bulbazak]

She was V/LA for the longest time, which accounts for most of that, plus, given her breadcrumbs, I actually think her claim is legitimate. At least you took the time to state your case. The only previous case I had heard of was Cephrir's, which was composed of Fuzzy's pre-game posts, which were taken out of context. Regardless, I don't think you're going to get that lynch today, but if it makes you feel any better, I'll look through her ISO during the night phase if I survive.

[Bulbazak]

Simplified Slandaar case:

1.) He has been doing very little scumhunting in thread. CTD says he's been doing a lot in their QT, but that still does not excuse the lack of scumhunting in the actual thread.

2.) His biggest case, which was on PV, was actually originally a case against ThAd using PV's predecessor. When it was pointed out that DLG was not ThAd's slot, Slandaar's reaction was, "Case still applies.". After the ThAd wagon fell through, he then turns around and uses the same case against PV. That's not scumhunting. That's being lazy and trying to get a lynch at all costs.

3.) He slipped and revealed that there were actually 2 teams of 4 scum in this game, rather than 2 teams of 3 scum, as everyone else was supposing. If Slandaar had come to this conclusion naturally, as others had suggested, do you not think that he would have brought it up beforehand, say when Bacde was going on about lynching the last blue scum?

4.) His reasons for thinking so are completely false. He first said that it was because he had PV and Desp. as part of the blue scum team, ignoring how such a suggestion would be unbalanced given the setup and the amount of neighborhoods. He then said that he just had a lot of scum reads, and therefore came to the conclusion of 8 scum. However, wouldn't town in that situation think, "I have too many scumreads. Some of them might be wrong." instead of "I have too many scum reads. There must be more scum in the game."?

5.) When I confronted him about him not scumhunting and pushing his scumreads, he responded with "I can't make people do anything.". This is hypocritical, since he has been trying to call me scum for saying similar things all game.

6.) After I called him out on the neighborhood lie, he then misrepped my argument and tried to paint it as me saying it was unfair, rather than unbalanced. It doesn't matter than I never talked about the fairness of it at all, he still pushed it, and was able to build up my wagon on it. Again,

it was a misrep as an attempt to get me lynched

, and it is scummy.

[Bulbazak]

If Penguin or Nacho don't come in and contribute before deadline, you should look seriously at them tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Since I'm probably going to die anyway, I'm going to get one more piece of useful setup spec out there. Right now, town has 2 claimed PRs (Well, 3 if you count Bacde's, which I doubt.): a Watcher (Investigative) and a Vig (Killing). That leaves a Protective Role, either a Doctor or a JK. There may also be an additional town role of some sort, but I'm not the best at setup spec to know whether that'd be unbalanced or not. So there you have it, 3-4 town PRs still in play. Use that knowledge as best as you can.

And I'm a VT, if you haven't guessed by now.

[Bulbazak]

has had us down as scum all game and now within minutes of his lynch he starts entertaining the idea that we are town? cos saying, "I will look into rena if I live" is treating us as town.

How is reevaluating scummy?

Also, I thought you were town d1. It was Thor's case on you that made me think you might be scum. I still think you are scum, but you're not the strongest scum read. Also, there are 2 teams, and some of my townreads are thinking Rena-scum. That's reason enough to reevaluate her and see how my read holds.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D4)

Town

Rena
ThAdmiral
Nachomamma8
PeregrineV
Cephrir
CrashTextDummy
Desperado

Null/Town (Actually, in this case, call it the "I don't care" pile)

Amethyst Kitty

Null

Human Destroyer

Null/Scum

Bacde
Ffullisade
Penguin_alien

Scum

Seanald
Nero Cain

Went through the ISO for Rena's slot, aside from a few scummy comments from Fuzzy and her panicking about her wagon, I still got a mostly town vibe from her. What especially helped was her paranoid reaction to Nacho upon replacing in, which I have a hard time seeing scum faking.

Going through HD's ISO just left me more confused. My reasons for thinking he might be scum are still there, but there are also several posts that work in his favor town-wise. It doesn't help that he really disappeared as a whole upon replacing his hydra. I'm really curious about his motivation and reasoning at this point, since he's keeping it really close to his chest. Hopefully I can have something more substantial by the end of the day.

Going to work through the null/scum list today. I think I can get them figured out before this cycle is finished.

Meanwhile...

Slandaar, why would we assume 8 scum?

No, I agree with Bulb here. I don't really buy Slandaar's excuse that "we should assume the maximum amount of scum" + Scumthez already speculated on there being "7-8 scum"

+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhoods and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time.

vote:Slandaar

Khan
Slandaar

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

I might be wrong here...for some reason I had it in my head that scum were like 30ish% of a game.

Vote Nero Cain

I'll walk people through it if I have to, but I think it should be obvious.

[Bulbazak]

I'm surprised that you have me as scum for some reason which doesn't make much sense to me but whatever I'm really not worried about being lynched

I'm trying to figure you out. Your play is not the same as the town game I've seen. Also, I don't know whether your tunnel on Nacho is town or scum motivated.

[Bulbazak]

Slandaar, why would we assume 8 scum?

Questions 8 scum in a 24 player game (i.e. the 33% scum scenario).

No, I agree with Bulb here. I don't really buy Slandaar's excuse that "we should assume the maximum amount of scum" + Scumthez already speculated on there being "7-8 scum"

Again questions Slandaar's 33% claim. He also throws in something Thez said (something I had forgot about to be honest) to increase suspicion on Slandaar.

+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhoods and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time.

He uses the neighborhood spec to implicate CTD as scum should Slandaar flip town. This is essentially setting up lynches.

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

Here he completely reverses his opinion on the number of scum in the game, probably due to the fact that he was being questioned about it by CTD.

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

I might be wrong here...for some reason I had it in my head that scum were like 30ish% of a game.

He continues to backpedal after you question him on it further, going "Well, I may be wrong...". Essentially, when questioned, he avoided taking a strong stance on the main reason he was lynching Slandaar! Which begs the question, if he really didn't feel strongly about his reasons for being on the wagon, why was he on the wagon in the first place?

P-edit: Bacde, that's a 7for7 fallacy. That does not mean that you're town and Nacho's scum, especially when we're in multiball.

[Bulbazak]

Hi bulba. fery here. Has this case turning out to be on a town player caused you to rethink anything about the game? If so, what?

Two things:

1.) I should really stay away from setup spec. I tend to suck at it. (Doesn't stop me from trying unfortunately. )

2.) My reads are probably askew somewhere. I'm not sure what to think about you and Bacde anymore, especially after your posts at the end of d3. I was getting some genuine emotion from you. Same goes for HD, who, after going through his ISO, still confuses me when it comes to the intent behind his actions. AK essentially sucker punched me yesterday, so I'm not quite sure where I stand on her. I suspect that she's town, but I'm not sure whether I really care if she lives or dies at this point. I'm just going to leave her alone. Finally, Slandaar's flip has made me really paranoid about CTD. He still reads town to me, but he's not as strong of a townread as he used to be. I still have 2 strong scum reads, which I still trust. However, if I end up being wrong about them, then town might as well put me out of my misery, because I am obviously no use to them.

@Bacde: I still have Nacho as a strong townread, especially after the way he stepped in at the end of the day yesterday. Scum could have just hung back and coasted, but Nacho chose to stick up for his townreads. I just can't see scum doing that.

[Bulbazak]

There's a rigidity to your reads list that is kind of worrisome. When I saw your list first thing today after your case on Slaandar turned out so wrong I really wasn't sure what to make of it not changing much (if at all).

The list really isn't as rigid as you think. As you can see, there are degrees of reads, and they have fluctuated due to the information I have. People move up and down the list depending on new information gained from actual interaction and flips. For example, CTD moved down from the top of the town list after Slandaar's flip, which shows that I'm not as sure about him as I once was. Also, you've moved from being "scum" to "null/scum" based on what I've seen so far. I could explain each read and why they are where they are, but that'd be overkill, and I don't think anybody really wants that.

I'm not sure if "you" means "you the hydra" or "you fferyllt" re genuine emotion.

I tend to consider hydras as a whole, but I'm probably referring more to the Mollie head, as I think that yesterday's paranoia was coming from her.

[Bulbazak]

Mollie is still pretty damn paranoid about you.

I'm not sure yet what I think.

Which is funny, because normally you're the one who is paranoid about me.

[Bulbazak]

@Bacde: I still have Nacho as a strong townread, especially after the way he stepped in at the end of the day yesterday. Scum could have just hung back and coasted, but Nacho chose to stick up for his townreads. I just can't see scum doing that.

Have you never defended a player who was town as scum before?

Of course I have. But never hard defending in that type of situation with 2 mislynch wagons neck and neck. It would have been more beneficial for scum Nacho to lurk and not do anything, essentially letting events play out without him. According to his avatar, he was V/LA. He could have played it off easily as not being available to stop it.

[Bulbazak]

Was less than pleased with QT last night. Bulba was not my first choice for a bullet.

But, we are now divining the setup to be 2 scumteams, each with a roleblocker, that each managed to block a PR without doubling up on either?

I think that's stretching it somewhat.

Vote: Nachomamma

So you think that PA is stretching it with her spec and then you vote Nacho? Why?

[Bulbazak]

Are you really suggesting that I'm scummy for doing the same thing as you I,e; lynching Slandaar?

No, I'm saying you're scum for voting Slandaar for a specific reason, then backing off of that reason while still voting Slandaar.

So tell me which team as flipped with 4 team members? What evidence suggests we have 8 scum in this game and why shouldn't I question this?

Don't put words in my mouth. I was showing that the main reason you were on the wagon was because you didn't believe Slandaar's assertion that there were 8 scum in the setup, an assertion that you later backpedaled on while continuing to vote Slandaar for suggesting it.

+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhoods and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time.

He uses the neighborhood spec to implicate CTD as scum should Slandaar flip town. This is essentially setting up lynches.

So I was setting up lynches but not voting for CTD, the lynch I supposedly set up, How the fuck does that work?

Because you want my lynch first, probably because town is more likely to do it today. I have no doubt that you'll go after CTD after I'm gone.

I also specifically said “there’s atleast one scum in the ‘hoods.” There are 3 hoods its not like I ever said "if Slan flips town then it makes CTD scum" and I have no clue how you would get that.

CTD might be scum afterall.

So again you seem to be buddying/defending CTD here. Just like you were doing yesterday.

Yes, I pointed out that you were setting up options for a CTD lynch yesterday while on the Slandaar wagon. I must obviously be buddying.

And in yet another bout of hypocrisy, Bulb is now calling me scummy for being suspicious of CTD while he is also suspicious of CTD.

Paranoia is natural after Slandaar's townflip, not before it. And my natural paranoia is still different than saying that he's probably scum if Slandaar flips town (since there's no way 2 scum would be paired together) while sitting on the Slandaar wagon.

25% seems kinda low and I was slightly onboard with 2 4-man scum teams. I also like Desp’s assessment of 7 scum.

Funny, you never said anything about that before CTD and Desperado questioned you. In fact, you jumped on Slandaar's wagon for him suggesting it. Yet when questioned about it while on the wagon, you're suddenly okay with the idea and see it as natural, the same idea that you weren't even considering a moment ago and was actually voting someone for?

So a vote and and calling him scum is not a strong stance?

You backpedaled on your main reason for voting Slandaar. Without that reason, your vote was essentially a meaningless opportunistic vote. In that context, no, your vote and you calling him scum was not a strong stance.

[Bulbazak]

Are you really suggesting that I'm scummy for doing the same thing as you I,e; lynching Slandaar?

No, I'm saying you're scum for voting Slandaar for a specific reason, then backing off of that reason while still voting Slandaar.

Pray tell well you didn't mention this yesterday? Going for a second mislynch I see.

I did mention it yesterday.

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

Backpedal ahoy!

Nevermind, Nero is still scum.

+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhoods and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time.

He uses the neighborhood spec to implicate CTD as scum should Slandaar flip town. This is essentially setting up lynches.

I also specifically said “there’s atleast one scum in the ‘hoods.” There are 3 hoods its not like I ever said "if Slan flips town then it makes CTD scum" and I have no clue how you would get that.

CTD might be scum afterall.

So again you seem to be buddying/defending CTD here. Just like you were doing yesterday.

Yes, I pointed out that you were setting up options for a CTD lynch yesterday while on the Slandaar wagon. I must obviously be buddying.

Yes 'cause I never said

ANYTHING

about how CTD

HAS

to be scum if Slan flips town. For a guy that likes to whine about having words put into their mouth you sure like to do it with me. I specifically stated that out of the six neighbors, I don't think that all 6 are town. I also stated that I thought that Slan was a good choice. At no point did I ever say "there is scum in the Slan/CTD 'hood" So yea, I think you are just hardcore buddying CTD here, just like you were doing yesterday.

But you heavily implied that CTD was scum if Slandaar flipped town. It's a more useful tactic when playing scum, because then when somebody brings it up, you can just say, "But I never

said

that.". It's a half-truth, and one that scum is more likely to use than town.

How is there "no way 2 scum would be paired together"? Other than it being somewhat unlikely, its not an impossibility. But again, I never made any kind of statement that "there

HAS

to be scum in the Slan-CTD neighborhood. My suspicions with CTD had to do with him ignoring all of my questions and had nothing to do with Slan. This is also a scumslip. Bulb thought that I was suspicious of CTD ONLY 'cause of Slan and yet Bulb became suspicious of CTD after Slan flipped town. So why would town-Bulb be accusing me of being scum for something he's doing? ITT-Bulb is scum.

Again, you're relying on the semantics of your actual statement in an effort to discredit an argument based on the

intent

of your statement, which is actually important. Then you try to twist cause and effect into some malformed meaning that only you can somewhat understand, because seriously, I don't get what you're saying. That I'm scummy because being paranoid about CTD after a townflip of his neighbor is the same as being suspicious of CTD and calling him scum

while

wagoning his neighbor? They're completely different. There's a part in the back of my mind that is telling me that if we find scum from one team in the neighborhoods, that we'll find scum from the other team in the neighborhoods as well. And while a scum/scum neighborhood might be an interesting idea, it is so improbable that it is highly unlikely. Yet, you are trying to defend your actions yesterday by saying that you thought CTD was scum

while

you were trying to lynch Slandaar as scum? The 2 reads do not compute enough to exist simultaneously. With how unlikely the scum/scum neighborhood is, that should not even be entering your mind, yet you are claiming it did (Because you were not saying that CTD was scum if Slandaar was town after all...). And when I point it out, you yell out, "You're also suspicious of CTD! Hypocrisy! Hypocrisy!". However, I only became paranoid of CTD after Slandaar flipped town, and that was because of my views on the neighborhoods (i.e. if we find one scum in the neighborhoods, the other scum is likely there as well, and my PoE eliminates PV). It is not the same as you saying that CTD might be scum

while

trying to lynch his neighbor. It's quite a stretch of logic, and a scummy one at that.

25% seems kinda low and I was slightly onboard with 2 4-man scum teams. I also like Desp’s assessment of 7 scum.

Funny, you never said anything about that before CTD and Desperado questioned you. In fact, you jumped on Slandaar's wagon for him suggesting it. Yet when questioned about it while on the wagon, you're suddenly okay with the idea and see it as natural, the same idea that you weren't even considering a moment ago and was actually voting someone for?

Town is very much a team game. Sure, I don't 100% know that CTD and Despo are on my team but it doesn't hurt to listen. As where you "care more about your own reads". That shits going to fuck town over, if you even are town.

And 4710 is calling you a liar.

Where did the "care about your own reads" quote come from? You're now starting to make crap up to defend yourself. And I already went over 4710. It's at the top of the page, and I called it backpedaling after you first said it. And if anyone would go back and look at what was happening when you said that, they'll notice that CTD was questioning you about the percentages, after which you completely reversed your stance on it, which, btw, was your main reason for voting Slandaar. So, no, it's not calling me a liar. All it's doing is confirming everything I've said.

Can we just lynch Nero now? This is starting to get ridiculous.

[Bulbazak]

Y'know Bulb, the posts I see there wrt Nero "setting up lynches" are more "If CTD flips town, Slandaar is scum", not the other way around like you claim.

How is this:

+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhoods and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time.

"If CTD flips town, Slandaar is scum."? He's making an assertion about CTD while voting Slandaar. If he thought that, he'd be voting CTD, but he wasn't. He was voting Slandaar, while saying "You know, we know there's at least one scum (translation: "There's one, but I'm going to say 'at least' in case I get called out on it.") in Slandaar/CTD. I think CTD might be scum. I'll look into it after I see what Slandaar flips.", which is essentially him saying that CTD is scum if Slandaar flips town. I can't believe you are going out of your way to mistranslate a post that much in an effort to protect scum. Looks a lot like a chainsaw defense to me.

[Bulbazak]

@ bulba

so you have nacho as town cos you.....said he was scum if you got lynched and then he came in and saved you? lol

I said that anybody who refused to take a position on the wagons (slandaar, me, or "it's plurality, so no") needed to be looked at come d4. I did not know at that time that Nacho was V/LA, as I would not have put him on that list of 3 players who had not taken a side. At no point did I say he was a scum read. In fact, his actions yesterday reaffirm my town read on him, since as scum he could have just used V/LA as an excuse for why he wasn't in the thread and have coasted while letting both wagons take their natural course.

[Bulbazak]

@ bulba

so you have nacho as town cos you.....said he was scum if you got lynched and then he came in and saved you? lol

I said that anybody who refused to take a position on the wagons (slandaar, me, or "it's plurality, so no") needed to be looked at come d4. I did not know at that time that Nacho was V/LA, as I would not have put him on that list of 3 players who had not taken a side. At no point did I say he was a scum read.

In fact, his actions yesterday reaffirm my town read on him, since as scum he could have just used V/LA as an excuse for why he wasn't in the thread and have coasted while letting both wagons take their natural course

.

and this is what is fucked up. you should

not

be reading him as town because of that I mean you mention his name and he pops in within the hour to move the lynch off of you while he was on v/la.

you should be questioning that, not town reading it cos if I were you I would be pretty fucking suspicious.

and you saying that if you knew he was on v/la you would never have brought up his is :/

Are you suggesting that Nacho is buddying me? Because I can't see that. I would think that I would be the last one that Nacho would want to buddy to, especially since history has shown that I'm bound to have a wagon ran up on me. He could not lift a finger to defend me, and it wouldn't cost him anything. Heck, he could do like he did as town in Voided's nightless mountainous game and call me town and later compromise hammer me without a reason (even though that game had plurality). He had no reason as scum to act the way he did at the end of d3, yet he did anyway. I'm really not seeing the scum motivation there.

the town read looks forced as hell

about as forced as your scum read on nero and us is. I mean you are doing mental gymnastics in order to justify a sticky terribad read.

I think my Nero read is pretty solid, especially given what he did on the Slandaar wagon. The fact that you think it's forced means that you're either glossing over what I'm saying or not even reading. As for you, I'm reevaluating my thoughts on your hydra given your actions at the end of d3. So that read is not really solid atm.

[Bulbazak]

ok, I'm officially questioning your sanity, but if you're scum then your weirdness is understood . For the like 5365463455475663445575654343447 time, I never said that there was there scum SPECIFICALLY in the CTD/Slan neighborhood. I said that I felt there were scum in the hoods as in that I don't really buy that all 6 are town. I know that its outguessing the mod which is somewhat useless but its a workable hypothesis. I thought Slan was a good bet for scum, hence why I voted him. Its NOT a stretch to be suspicious of his neighbor at the same time.

So you're assuming all of the scum neighbors are in a neighborhood together? As I said yesterday, if scum from 1 team is in a neighborhoods, then scum from the other team is likely in the neighborhoods as well, and I find it highly unlikely that they're both together. Therefore, if you thought that Slandaar was scum, than you should have thought that CTD was town via PoE, which means when you suspected him yesterday, you were essentially saying that CTD was scum if Slandaar is town. As I've pointed out before, the possibility of a scum/scum neighborhood is so unlikely as to be improbable, so you either are like me and are "insane", since your theory surpasses mine in that regard, or we go with the more simple solution, which is you're scum who was trying to set up another lynch, got caught, and is now trying to make up some strange theory where you thought that both might have been scum in a situation where they both couldn't have been scum.

If anything is a stretch its you trying to claim that I called “one of Slan/CTD scum” b/c I didn’t.

So you are assuming a scum/scum neighborhood then? If not, then your statement makes no logical sense.

I don’t understand what Slan’s town flip has to do with CTD, you were hardcore town reading the guy and then you flip a switch and he’s scummy? To be honest this is starting to look like some sort of buddy play. I mean, I find CTD suspicious yes but I don’t see how Slan’s town flip incriminates him and ESPECIALLY someone you were hard town reading just a moment ago. So it looks like you calling him scummy out of the blue. I also get a fence sitty vibe.

I never said that CTD was scum. I just said that I'm a bit paranoid about him after Slandaar's town flip. I find CTD to be town for the same reasons I did before, but due to the flip, he's not as strongly town. There's a small voice in the back of my mind that keeps whispering to me about my neighborhood speculation, which if we find scum in the neighborhoods I still stand by. However, after Slandaar's flip, I really don't want to go aimlessly poking around in the neighborhoods for the sole reason of proving my theory. I want to find scum for actual scummy reasons, not just theory. Therefore, if we go after one of the neighbors for legitimately scummy reasons, and they flip scum, only then will I evaluate given my theory, but until then, it's too dangerous to try on that reason alone, making it more in line with a policy lynch, which I'm not especially a fan of.

Also, how am I fence sitting?

My point was that, you are claimed town. YOU believed that I was saying that there was scum between Slan/CTD. I wasn’t but the the sake of the argument lets go with that. TODAY, you come out and are all like “yea, there’s scum between Slan/CTD.” So you are agreeing with what you thought I said yesterday. If you believe the same thing then why would you call that scummy unless you don’t have a pro-town pm.

I didn't say that CTD was definitely scum. I just said that Slandaar's flip has made me a little paranoid about him, which, considering my thoughts on the neighborhoods, is understandable. What I can't understand is you saying he might be scum out of the blue while sitting on his neighbor's wagon.

The bolded needs to be explained. There’s no flipped scum from the neighborhood. So why would you be looking for the “other” scum? Also explain your POE and how it eliminates PV.

I explained this yesterday:

I've ruled out scum-scum neighborhoods via PoE. I've come to accept that ThAd is probably the vig., and Desperado's posts as of late have me reading him as town, not to mention my townread of CTD. This means that there is at least 1 town in every neighborhood. That would leave 2 scum in Slandaar, PV, and Seanald. Cephrir said that PV is unlikely to be scum due to ThAd being a killing role, and I agree, as that'd put 1 killing role in every neighborhood (balance). This leaves Slandaar and Seanald as scum from different teams. Slandaar's slip has led from this being theoretical to practical. I say that we lynch Slandaar today, Seanald tomorrow, and then work from there.

Now, there's obviously some flaws here, as Slandaar flipped town, but I still say that the basic premise is sound should we find scum in the neighborhoods. I still think that if that is the case, there is only one killing role per neighborhood, which eliminates PV as scum. If someone has a compelling case that says I'm wrong, I'd like to hear it, but I think I'm right in this regard.

Where did the "care about your own reads" quote come from? You're now starting to make crap up to defend yourself.

So I'm making things up am I?

I tend to trust my reads over anyone else's

itt bulb gets caught in a lie.

Oh, so you were referring to something I said yesterday. I thought you were talking about something I said in our conversation today. You should have clarified when you said that, like, "You said yesterday..." or "You've previously mentioned...". Again, I'm considering this game in large strokes, so I tend to forget the small details, especially if it's not connected to my reads. I find that scum tend to focus on the small minute details that are inconsequential in an effort to muddy the waters and try to score mislynches.

Why are you even doing lists this game when you didn't do them in voided mafia?

IIRC, I actually did do some lists in that game, although it was close to the time I was about to be mislynched. When it came to this games, and subsequent games (barring hydras), I decided to try something different, because I found those lists in Voided's game helped focus my mind a bit. So yes, the hierarchy of reads is something new that I'm trying out, and so far, I like it.

+ explain why Nacho is a strong town read for defending you but AK is a null read for defending me?

It's more of the way that Nacho defended me, especially since he could have stayed out of the thread and let nature take its course. All that AK did was give reasons why she thought you were town, and she only did that with great urging from me. I also didn't think her defense was that great, although I did take it in mind after you voted Slandaar, which caused me to doubt my read on you, up until you backpedaled that is. Right now, she's not so much null as she is "I really don't care anymore", which is due to her essentially saying, "Oh yeah, you know all that scummy stuff that Nero claims I did, but you say otherwise? I totally did that.". Imagine having a decent town read essentially come up, sucker punch you in the stomach, and then cut your balls off. So yeah, she's probably town, but I really don't care if she lives or dies at this point.

CTD, it seems unlikely to me that a JK would protect the counter-wagon target after a town flip. Is Kublai Khan the type of player who would do that in your experience?

Why are you speculating on what Khan did or didn't do, especially when you're not pushing anybody? We have no clue who Khan jail kept or why. What this looks like is you trying to soft push a wagon without actually being on it.

[Bulbazak]

@ bulba

Why are you speculating on what Khan did or didn't do, especially when you're not pushing anybody? We have no clue who Khan jail kept or why. What this looks like is you trying to soft push a wagon without actually being on it.

so what wagon is penguin trying to push?

there isn't a wagon on ctd and penguin is not voting anybody

Penguin is trying to soft push my wagon. She talks about how she doesn't think that Khan would jail keep me, simply because I was the counterwagon to Slandaar, which means that she sees me as scummy and is soft pushing my wagon without actually voting for me. Do you think this is an incorrect interpretation of what Penguin said?

[Bulbazak]

Sorry everyone. Been busy, both in real life and in moderating my first game on-site. Going to catch up as quickly as I can while staving off burnout.

Penguin is trying to soft push my wagon. She talks about how she doesn't think that Khan would jail keep me, simply because I was the counterwagon to Slandaar, which means that she sees me as scummy and is soft pushing my wagon without actually voting for me. Do you think this is an incorrect interpretation of what Penguin said?

Penguin is town and wasn't doing what you say she was doing there. At all.

Point in that she wasn't doing what I thought she was, but I'm still not sure she's town.

@Bulb

"+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhood

s

and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time."

That's clearly 2 biggest scumreads from all 3 neighborhoods, hence the bolded pluralization.

So you're agreeing that a scum/scum neighborhood is more likely than both scum in different neighborhoods?

So you're assuming all of the scum neighbors are in a neighborhood together? As I said yesterday, if scum from 1 team is in a neighborhoods, then scum from the other team is likely in the neighborhoods as well, and I find it highly unlikely that they're both together.

no? I was voting Slan 'cause I thought he was scum. I think CTD was doing some scummy shit and I was slightly paranoid of him. I think you are reeaally stretching here. When you put it like that "they were unlikely to both be scum" it makes some sense but it was never my intention and its stretching and looking awkward as hell to suggest that I knew Slan would flip town and that I said there HAD to be scum in this hood.

I'm just saying that logically scum from both teams are unlikely to be in the same neighborhood. This means that normal thought should be "if not Slandaar then CTD" if you find them both suspicious. I find it scummy that you keep trying to confuse the point by saying, "I see the logic, but let me yell useless crap and say I thought they were both scum in the same neighborhood, rather than admit that I think they were both scum in the same neighborhood or that I was thinking in terms of 'if not A then B'." It's like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, all while trying to call me scummy for calling you out on it.

Though it would be extremely easy for you as scum to go “well, the neighbor flipped town, so the other one must be scum!”

It would, wouldn't it. What does that have to do with this current conversation, especially since that is not what I'm doing?

Your entire theory was that both teams had a scum in the hoods and that PV-Thad was a town/town hood, Slan was scum is the hood with Despo and that Slan was scum in his hood.

Slan flipped town. So in your theory

you are calling CTD scum

.

My neighborhood spec would indicate that, yes. The logical part of me keeps referring to the spec and saying, "CTD scum!", but my instincts counter with "CTD town!". I don't want to just start blindly lynching in the neighborhoods just to prove my spec right, as that will do more harm to the town than good. I'd rather rely on reads at the moment, because my track record with such spec is not good. However, if we lynch scum in one of the neighborhoods, I'll revisit my spec and reevaluate given the flip. The only difference the spec has made is that it has shaken my strong read of CTD. I still have a townread on him, but it's not as strong as before.

Are you reevaluating the PV-Thad hood? Apparently not ‘cause you listed both Thad and PV as strong town reads.

Thad is a vig, and I still have a hard time seeing 2 killing roles in the same neighborhood. So far, I've not seen a compelling case on PV.

You even have CTD as a stronger town read then Despo Which makes no sense.

How does it make no sense? My read on CTD wasn't shaken enough to make him a weaker read than Desp, who only became a full townread due to him actually major scumhunting yesterday.

So why does your day 4 list not add up to your actual thoughts?

They do, you're just trying to twist those thoughts and make them out to be scummy.

However, after Slandaar's flip, I really don't want to go aimlessly poking around in the neighborhoods for the sole reason of proving my theory. I want to find scum for actual scummy reasons, not just theory. Therefore, if we go after one of the neighbors for legitimately scummy reasons, and they flip scum, only then will I evaluate given my theory, but until then, it's too dangerous to try on that reason alone, making it more in line with a policy lynch, which I'm not especially a fan of.

and this is just a bunch of backing down and pre-emptive reasoning to explain away his discrepancies in his list/thought process.

No, this is just me not wanting to policy lynch a bunch of people just to prove my spec. You are really stretching now.

RE scum and lists: I'm not suggesting that only scum make them but they are relatively safe since they can easily be manufactured and scum seem to use them a lot. All they have to do is "follow the logic" e.g. go from the highest scum read to the next.

Translation: "I'm not saying it's scummy, but watch as I softly imply that it's scummy."

If you no longer believe in your own theory then why does Slan’s town flip make you suspicious of CTD?

I honestly thought that Slandaar would flip scum and was shocked when that didn't happen. The spec's still in the back of my mind, and it has started to make me question my CTD read.

If you were second guessing your own theory then why did you not come right out and say so?

I'm not so much second guessing it as not blindly following it. I have no basis for it atm, and will continue not to have one unless there is a scum flip in the neighborhoods.

oh look what I found!!!

I think if Slandaar gets lynched and flips town, CTD will more likely be scum.

This is what Bulb is pushing me for but he's ignoring this?

There's also that pusedo-vig Thad wanted to shoot Bulb and told PV in the qt (right?) and then was blocked

Thad, did PV ask you who you wanted to shoot?

I honestly didn't remember this was said, but at least PV admitted what he was thinking, rather than take a page out of your book and dance all over the subject. I actually find this to be the scummiest part of your post, just because you are trying to build up the suspicion in other's minds instead of coming right out and saying so yourself. This "Oh look what I found!!!" is scummy in and of itself, because it's showboating and giving an air of scumhunting, when all you're doing is hunting through the thread to find anything to cast anybody, mainly myself, in a scummy light. You then suggest scummy motivation to others without coming out and stating that it's scummy yourself. Do you know who does that? Scum.

And his thought process concerning the neighbors makes no fucking sense what so ever.

Of course it doesn't make sense when you keep twisting and misrepping the argument.

VOTE: Bulba It's just all to incredibly forced, the walls, the buzzwords, and the painfully forced reasoning. It just isn't real it's scum.

and considering I still have a strong scum read on Cephrir, I believe cephrir was totally trying to save his buddy at the end of yesterday there, basically begging for votes to be moved off bulba.

The suggestion is, then, that Bulb has scumslipped the knowledge that there aren't 4 scum neighbors out of 6 neighbors, in a normal game...
Get real.

Hi Bulbas buddy.

Baaa!!!

it's been forced since Deflectiongate.

You obviously wasn't paying close attention to what I actually said. The original point was on what is perhaps Nero's scummiest post all game. In it he tries to deflect Khan's attention onto other people, even though it was later shown that Nero was incorrect in everything he asserted them to do. He then follows that up with, "Why am I not on your townlist" or in other words "Why do you not think I'm town? Give me towncred.". Nero tried, and it can be argued that he was successful, to actually divert that conversation onto other people, namely AK and Mollie, each of those circumstances being markedly different than the one we were discussing. After I pointed this out, he then proceeded to call me scummy for disagreeing with him. All this from a conversation that was originally about him trying to get the conversation moved elsewhere, something that the course of events proves he's adept at doing, and for then trying to gain towncred from it.

So what, you think its a towntell that everyone one is telling him that's he's off his rocker but he's just putting his fingers in his ears and yelling "I'M NOT LISTNING!!!"

Actually, the only one telling me that is you, and the more you do so, the more that I think I'm right on the money.

On to page 199.

[Bulbazak]

Pages 199-200:

@ Cephrir & Bulba-

Why did I vote Nacho?

Well,
4843
4844
He's got a point.

4632
Nacho quoting Nacho as the reason to tunnel me.

4782
Voting for a town read in a game that does not require a majority lynch.

(lots of posts)
Buddying ffulisade

Everchanging and confusing reads (spoiled below):

Spoiler: Senald scum/not scum, Bulba not scum but 4806

you know that i would not call somene town unless my gut hardly says.. Nero is town. and If feel you're town. So, Now stop pissing each other..

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

And also i want to know what your thoughts on Cephier.

Cephrir's probably town.

let's look at cephrir. does anybody seriously believe that cephrir has no idea what to do with thad's "trolling". omg, no. I mean that is what cephrir is saying, "I have no idea what to do about thad's trolling cos I have just never encountered it before!". oh plz.

I've learned that trolling can apparently throw people off in extremely weird ways.

bacde, you freak me out because dragonballz.

- f

this essentially is dragonballz
and sooner or later everything will just click and a bunch of scum will die and everything will be okay.

Fery makes me sad on so many levels. Like SUPER SAD. ~~~Actually I said this to Mara after the Donner Party game ended. There was something similar that was said here to something said there. Bulb had a total different reaction to it here which made me lean town on him mainly because he was SK in DP.

I don't get it.

- f

they're town.

The only argument I've seen in Nero's defense is that his play here reminds people of other town games of his. I find this to be a very unreliable use of meta, because it assumes that Nero-scum is incapable of emulating his town play.

I trust mollie's (and AA's, believe it or not) instincts when dealing with Nero. Sometimes he plays great, sometimes he plays incredibly scummily, self-destructs, etc.

My problem with your Nero case lately is that we still don't even know it's multiball. If it isn't, your entire case goes up in flames. I think my Seanald case is stronger than your Nero case, straight up.

two kills per night --> claimed vig who hasn't shot --> "blue" scum all sort of equals multiball
if ThAd gets counterclaimed by bullets and flips blue scum, then maybe it's not multiball but that's looking HIGHLY unlikely at this point.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

BULBAZAK HAS BEEN TOWN FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME

FFERY MOLLIE IS CALLING BULBAZAK TOWN
FIX IT

Lack of scumreads even though 4-6 scum left (depending on your setup belief).

These are bad reasons to vote Nacho. 1.) Bacde never presented a good reason as to why Nacho is scum. His point was that he has caught more scum than Nacho (read: 1), and should therefore be trusted. It's a fallacious argument and should not be taken as a reason to lynch Nacho. 2.) I would hardly call what Nacho is doing tunneling you. Bacde is tunneling. Nacho is not. 3.) Nacho chose to save his bigger townread. How is that scummy at all? This feels like reaching.

Desperado's analysis and response to this is spot on as well.

Note to the town: Nero has no intention of ever following up on this. If he thinks I'm good enough scum to fool almost the entire town with my play, it's completely nonsensical that he'd even entertain the idea that he could find a friendly neighbor in one of my past games. He's throwing around a bunch of theories with no regard for whether they actually make sense. Pseudo-scumhunting at it's finest.

Then why are you not voting Nero?

If he truly believed in his theory yesterday, a certain amount of paranoia makes sense. Though it's just as likely (or maybe more so) that he was simply overreaching with his argument yesterday to save his own hide and now has to backpedal to maintain a semblance of reason.

I truly thought that Slandaar would flip scum and was shocked when that did not happen. If I was just trying to save my hide, I would have pushed the Nero wagon harder, as it had more people on it at the time.

Nero is once again throwing out a wide net of conflicting theories ("Bulba is buddying CTD!", "Bulba reversed his read on CTD!", "Bulba and CTD might be scumbuddies!")

At least I'm not the only one seeing it...

They magically ended up together on the Slandaar mislynch after being at each other's throat (more suspicious from Nero's end, who had every reason to vote Bulba since he was arguing for his lynch for a significant portion of yesterday, and pretty much had no reason to vote Slandaar after he conceded the scum-% point)

I have a theory about that, but I want to talk to Nacho first.

If you decide to finally stop giving Nero a pass, I'd much prefer lynching him still.

That's what I'm trying to do, but the big supporters of the lynch, including yourself, seem to want to go elsewhere.

His point was that he has led the push hard on thez. He saw something that I didn't see, and thez flipped scum. So if he's seeing it again, then he's right, listen to him.

Just because he caught scum once does not mean he's automatically right again. That is lazy and fallacious reasoning.

Are you REALLY giving a reason that Bulb would backtrack? Context says you two are full of it. He's STILL town reading Thad and PV BECAUSE of his theory. AND he's still believes that Sean is scum and in his theory he thinks both teams have a undercover hoodling. So if he believes that and is unwilling revisit THAD or PV then you are the POE scum. I think its likely he has a buddy in you or PV. I'm also not arguing about him setting up a lynch on you. I'm saying that in his theory he has you listed as scum and now he's backing away from calling you scum for some reason.

You are taking separate components and saying that they are all one. All that my setup spec says is that if there is scum from 1 team in the neighborhoods, then there is scum from the other team as well, and that given the vig claim, there is likely to be only 1 killing role in each neighborhood. Given that Slandaar didn't flip scum, I've put that to the side for now until we get a flip that either supports or disproves it. PV-town is a separate component, because I find it highly unlikely that scum would be placed in a neighborhood with a vig in multiball due to balancing issues. My Seanald read is another component entirely, as it is based off of actual scumtells, and not theory. Each of these 3 can help in PoE, but only in the case of a flip, until then they're separate, as some can be proven invalid while others hold true. Now it's true that my setup spec has shed doubt on my townread of CTD, but that's all that it's done, as my actual read and analysis of CTD's play tells me something different. Therefore, until there's a scumflip in the neighborhoods, I'm not even going to bother with the main setup spec. Doing so would essentially be randomly lynching and hoping for scum, which is the equivalent to policy lynching, which I am not the biggest fan of, especially at this stage of the game.

On to page 201.

[Bulbazak]

Rena
bulb
ctd
Cephir
nacho
bacde
^
the last 4 scum be in there

What happened to you thinking that scum made up 1/3rd of the playerlist?

The fact that he's not trying to get Seanald lynched despite having him as a scumread along with you strikes me as odd because it would give him further insight into the validity of his theory.

I was burned yesterday after being so sure that Slandaar would flip scum. I'm not too keen to stick my hand back in the fire today. Also, between the two, Nero is the more social threat, while all Seanald does is lurk, sheep, and occasionally stir the pot.

2.) My reads are probably askew somewhere. I'm not sure what to think about you and Bacde anymore, especially after your posts at the end of d3. I was getting some genuine emotion from you. Same goes for HD, who, after going through his ISO, still confuses me when it comes to the intent behind his actions. AK essentially sucker punched me yesterday, so I'm not quite sure where I stand on her. I suspect that she's town, but I'm not sure whether I really care if she lives or dies at this point. I'm just going to leave her alone. Finally, Slandaar's flip has made me really paranoid about CTD. He still reads town to me, but he's not as strong of a townread as he used to be.

I still have 2 strong scum reads, which I still trust. However, if I end up being wrong about them, then town might as well put me out of my misery, because I am obviously no use to them.

Read: Bulba is bussing one or both of Nero/Seanald.

If I am constantly wrong, especially on my strongest scum reads, then I am essentially useless to the town. Add in the fact that I make a popular wagon, which can prove to be a distraction, and there is no reason why scum wouldn't want to keep me around as long as possible, which makes me a liability to the town.

Nero also appears to have uncanny levels of insight into Bulba's thought process despite thinking he's scum =/

He's seen me as town before in Voided's nightless mountainous game, and has seen me latch onto somebody and not let go. I then spent some time scumhunting in the dead QT. I have no doubt he has some insight into my thought process.

all of Bulb's previous quotewall wars eventually ended.

That's because in previous games, new information either came up, or a strong townread had to pry me off the other person and tell me to chill for awhile.

You obviously wasn't paying close attention to what I actually said. The original point was on what is perhaps Nero's scummiest post all game. In it he tries to deflect Khan's attention onto other people, even though it was later shown that Nero was incorrect in everything he asserted them to do. He then follows that up with, "Why am I not on your townlist" or in other words "Why do you not think I'm town? Give me towncred.". Nero tried, and it can be argued that he was successful, to actually divert that conversation onto other people, namely AK and Mollie, each of those circumstances being markedly different than the one we were discussing. After I pointed this out, he then proceeded to call me scummy for disagreeing with him. All this from a conversation that was originally about him trying to get the conversation moved elsewhere, something that the course of events proves he's adept at doing, and for then trying to gain towncred from it.

Don't tell me I wasn't paying attention, bulb. You've identified the exact same tell on several other people (myself included) and you were wrong about it every time. If you say Player X is scum for Y reason, and four other players are also doing Y, it is perfectly legitimate for Player X to question your inconsistency. It is not a deflection, it's a refutation of the point. Let's go back to the source shall we?

The original Nero post:

....really all in one page right in a row, someone is scum here. I lean nacho/Cephrir most.
This, but its also likely multiball so OS could still be scum.

+ its OS and I'd love to lynch that.

Khan's question:

its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Nero's "deflection:"

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

Bulb claims that none of that was true. Let's check.

multiball?

^900 posts before Nero's multiball comment

In post 1871, Slandaar wrote:
Well there are many explanations for this but they all conclude with; to gain what he thinks is a huge advantage.

Find him discussing that in a situation that does not involve 10 alive in an SK game as opposed to a Day start large.
He also never said it was a huge advantage for scum - he said it was dangerous for town in a SK present situation.
That's a questionable word twist on your part - clarify?

He didn't know it was an SK it was all theoretical just like this could have an SK or be Multiball etc, so your argument is what? he thinks its more beneficial in a large game where POE is useless over a game with 10 players and POE much more beneficial? (It also forced the SK if an SK into an awkward spot which I explained)

^600 posts before Nero's comment

Thors day is today

Actually, that was yesterday.

Nothing anyone else will be able to use for their benefit; the way he views Mac/thez is exactly how I have. And yes that makes him town unless its multiball.

When you said that you saw something that made Nacho town unless it was multiball, I was expecting something more substantial, not "Nacho has a similar scumread as me.". That's just weak.

^20 posts before Nero's comment.

Not only is your recollection that everyone he accused was innocent completely wrong, you were directly involved in it and quoted another, AND you've forgotten who was actually involved in the deflection, substituting AK and mollie (who they did argue about, but not for another 1000 posts or so) for slandaar and bacde. For the level of investment you are appear to have in this read, I find it scummy that you've conflated so many of your arguments with Nero with one another. I don't think it was ever real.

Unvote
Vote: Bulbazak

Looking at the quotes: You're right that Bacde is speculating about multiball, but only because he thought Oversoul was scum and wanted to keep his Nacho scumread. It's mainly Bacde continuing to tunnel Nacho. Slandaar is arguing with Thor about Nacho and brings up things that Thor might not have considered. It's not really multiball speculation as Slandaar never claimed he believed it to be the case. As for me, I was asking Slandaar about a statement he made. I never state that I thought we might be in multiball.

What I'm referring to is this:

Nero do you agree there is a very clear distinction between what I said and what you said?

but I don't know exactly what you said. I know that Bcade and Bulb were arguing over the number of the scum and that Bulb posted an insanely high/inflated number (7-8) and Bcade's was more reasonable.

OS, gimme me a tl;dr case on Despo?

As you can see, Slandaar was pointing out that he was doing something substantially different than Nero, and Nero had put Bacde and myself on the list because we were supposedly arguing over the number of scum. Btw, Nero's assertion about my posts was wrong, as he attributed Thezmon's posts (the magical 7-8 scum post that Nero keeps bringing up) to me, a fact he admitted to at the start of the next day phase. Essentially, he posted a "my bad" later on about everybody he accused in his post to Khan.

As for AK and Mollie, I was referring to what happened later on in my back-and-forth with Nero. Nero tried to move the focus of the conversation off of him and onto what AK, and later Mollie, did. I did my best to show the differences, and in Mollie's case, why that wasn't even the same thing (she didn't try to say, "but what about X?", since the whole thing was about Nero being possible 3rd party). As I said, it all has to do with the way things are said. Questioning criteria when asking "What about X?" is different than saying "What about X?" followed by "Why am I not a townread?". Nero's whole MO has been to shift attention off of himself and onto others, which you can say he was successful at, since he turned a whole argument about how he diverted attention away from himself into an argument about AK, then Mollie, then finally, "Why do you not think they're the same?" after having spent several day phases explaining why.

So you're agreeing that a scum/scum neighborhood is more likely than both scum in different neighborhoods?

???

No, I haven't said that. I'm saying he had both players as scumreads.

A scum/scum neighborhood between two scum teams

is

possible though, I hadn't really thought of that.

In any case, one of them flipped town already, so that isn't even relevant.

The fact that Slandaar flipped town has no bearing on what Nero did while on the Slandaar wagon? He thought that both Slandaar

and

CTD might be scum, while pushing Slandaar. This either means that he thought they were in a scum/scum neighborhood, or that he thought CTD was scum if Slandaar flipped town. Nero is saying that he didn't think either, while still maintaining that he thought both were scum, which is contradictory.

desperado's last post all but sealed it for me.

[Bulbazak]

I've just gotten consistently behind in this game, and if you haven't noticed, it moves fast. I always take it page by page when that far behind. I could give you examples from completed games, but you've read both of them.

[Bulbazak]

I think people are more willing to stand up for Nero than they are for Seanald, though. Does that change your mind at all?

I still think Nero is the more dangerous of the two, but if you can get a Seanald wagon going, I'll gladly switch. Which reminds me...

Desp, what did Seanald say to you last night to suddenly make him a town read again?

[Bulbazak]

I've just gotten consistently behind in this game, and if you haven't noticed, it moves fast. I always take it page by page when that far behind. I could give you examples from completed games, but you've read both of them.

Yeah, it made sense when you were like 40 pages behind. But you were still doing it even when you were only like a page behind. And you were still doing it two pages ago even though we've had two night phases since you're v/la IIRC. Surely you were caught up, and if not at a regular pace behind to where you don't need to continue the procession?

I've had several times since the V/LA where I'll get busy or burnt out and not post anywhere on site for a couple of days. Given the pace of this game, that can be as much as 5-10 pages behind. And given that almost every page is full of complex and intricate arguments, even being behind even 3-4 pages can be a chore, especially if you're trying to respond to several of those posts. The whole reason why I do that version of catch up is so that everyone doesn't have to put up with incredibly huge walls. Those posts by themselves still end up being walls, but imagine if I didn't stop to make a new post every page or so. You'll probably be seeing more of those as the game progresses, just because of how fast it moves. Hopefully I can stay caught up on it, because my thoughts tend to be more up to date when that is the case.

And I didn't see you use the "on to page XXX" gimmick in Amurika or NY 163. What games are you talking about/what did I miss?

Newbie 1333 - Scum. Got behind sometime during d1.

NY 163 - Town. Fell behind at one point during d1. Took me awhile to catch back up.

And these are only the games that are finished.

P-edit: Desp, you read Seanald as scum yesterday. When this day phase started, you didn't vote him and have shown no suspicion toward him whatsoever. I take it that this means that he is a townread again? What did he say during the night phase to change your mind?

[Bulbazak]

You aren't getting it man. There have been multiple times where you are making a post on, say, page 201 that will say at that bottom "on to page 200." This is like 100 pages after you initially got behind. And it's now become, in my eyes, and easy way for you to appear like you're contributing when the majority of the things that you say have already been covered by someone who was there when the post you're responding to was actually relevant.

I've told you why I've been making posts like that. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore what I said, that's your call. You'd be in good company.

Why did you phrase the question like that if you were completely making it up?

Completely making what up? I thought you had legitimately dropped your Seanald-scum read, as I had expected you to push it hard today given your zeal for it yesterday.

What do you think of Rena/Peregrine?

Given the Ninja flip, I see no reason to doubt Rena's claim. As for PV, I somewhat understand the case, but I don't really buy there being scum in the same neighborhood as a vig. If you can provide reasons why that would be the case in this game, I'll listen and consider your PV case, but until then, I think he's probably town.

[Bulbazak]

Completely making what up? I thought you had legitimately dropped your Seanald-scum read, as I had expected you to push it hard today given your zeal for it yesterday.

You said "What did Seanald say to you last night to make him a townread today?"

^That's you making something up. Why would you ask the question like that rather than just ask me straight up what I think about him now? You brought it up in an accusatory manner like you'd caught me with my pants down, which doesn't make any sense since you think I'm town.

You were really gung-ho about a Seanald lynch yesterday. I expected you to carry that through into today, but you sort of dropped it. I assumed that meant you no longer thought he was scum, and since there was no indication of you changing your mind in thread, I just figured Seanald said something in your neighborhood QT that changed your read. Hence why I asked what he said. I was not making anything up. It was just the natural conclusion to my line of reasoning, and I was curious why you had changed your mind.

I talked about vig in a neighborhood with a vig a while ago. What did you think of that reasoning?

I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.

[Bulbazak]

I just have a hard time seeing scum from one team in a neighborhood with a vig due to balance issues, since that is essentially giving one team access to a second kill via manipulation. Unless you have a counter argument that explains how it could be balanced, then I have to consider PV to be likely town.

If they successfully manipulate. Vig has two chances to catch them out before they can do that: in thread and in QT.

What about the other team?

[Bulbazak]

I'm still not seeing it. Can you give me a concise summary of the PV case?

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, how strong is your PV scumread on a scale of MasterMew to RayFrost?

[Bulbazak]

@Naco: Thoughts on Nero?

[Bulbazak]

Does your scumread on Seanald stem solely from your neighborhood spec?

No, I've been suspecting him since his IIoA on d2, where he didn't come up with any reads until

after

I pointed it out.

Also, your argument here that Seanald is the more harmless out of the two reads as a rather cheap excuse to me, considering how paramount his flip allegedly is for several of your other reads.

His flip would only be paramount in substantiating my neighborhood spec. As far as actual reads, his flip really doesn't do much in the grand scheme of things.

I don't even know what "social threat" is supposed to mean here.

Nero is more active than Seanald, and therefore more influential and harmful to town. He's also the most likely to get away if not pressed. Seanald has no original thought of his own, which means he is not harming the town to the extent that Nero is. Seanald can wait. Nero needs to be lynched.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, you said you didn't want to poke into the neighborhoods unless there were legitimately reasons to suspect someone:

There's a small voice in the back of my mind that keeps whispering to me about my neighborhood speculation, which if we find scum in the neighborhoods I still stand by. However, after Slandaar's flip, I really don't want to go aimlessly poking around in the neighborhoods for the sole reason of proving my theory. I want to find scum for actual scummy reasons, not just theory. Therefore, if we go after one of the neighbors for legitimately scummy reasons, and they flip scum, only then will I evaluate given my theory, but until then, it's too dangerous to try on that reason alone, making it more in line with a policy lynch, which I'm not especially a fan of.

You claim to have legitimate reasons to suspect Seanald, but when asked why you're not going after him you said:

I was burned yesterday after being so sure that Slandaar would flip scum. I'm not too keen to stick my hand back in the fire today.

Which seems rather contradictory to me.

Nero is more active than Seanald, and therefore more influential and harmful to town. He's also the most likely to get away if not pressed. Seanald has no original thought of his own, which means he is not harming the town to the extent that Nero is. Seanald can wait. Nero needs to be lynched.

Why is someone who's active more harmful to town than a scummy lurker? Someone who's sheeping a harmful wagon is just as bad for the town as someone who's creating and pushing a harmful wagon. Seanald was voting you at the end of yesterday and he's voting you now, so if you were town, you of all people should have some perspective of how harmful he's being.

Your argument for why Nero needs to be lynched before Seanald quite frankly doesn't make any sense.

Since when is lurking scum more dangerous to the town than scum that makes waves? Nero can do more damage with his influence than Seanald can, because all Seanald is doing is following others and staying in the shadows. Lurking scum can be countered effectively if identified. Scum such as Nero is more difficult to take care of, because they act like an infection in the entire organism. The longer it takes to get them out, the more townies they take with them. Nero-scum needs to be lynched as soon as possible, or he will never be taken care of, and town will go into endgame with his hand grasped firmly around their throats.

And it's not contradictory to not want to mess around with the neigborhoods again after being burnt badly the previous day, regardless of my read on Seanald. I was sure about my read on Slandaar as well, and look what happened. I'm not keen in going back and revisiting that blunder the next day by diving into the neighborhoods again.

The best analogy would probably be getting in a car accident. You are not exactly gung-ho the next day about getting behind the wheel again. I want to take care of Nero today, and after that, I'll revisit Seanald and the neighborhoods.

[Bulbazak]

could someone be an angel and give me the neighborhood pairings?

Slandaar/CTD

PV/ThAd

Desperado/Seanald



Nacho:

Nacho, how strong is your PV scumread on a scale of MasterMew to RayFrost?

@Naco: Thoughts on Nero?

[Bulbazak]

Oh my god.

If I am constantly wrong, especially on my strongest scum reads, then I am essentially useless to the town. Add in the fact that I make a popular wagon, which can prove to be a distraction, and there is no reason why scum wouldn't want to keep me around as long as possible, which makes me a liability to the town.

Bulbazak: "Scum want to keep me around as long as possible."

His two strong scum reads are both trying to lynch him. Two out of three of his weak scum reads tried to lynch him yesterday. Even his null read HD wanted to lynch him yesterday and was on his wagon today. The people resisting a Bulbalynch are almost exclusively town reads for him.

Almost all of Bulba's scumreads want him dead or wanted him lynched over Slandaar.

Come the fuck on, this literally couldn't be more obvious.

CTD, it's like you're purposely being obtuse. Scum wouldn't want to NK me. I never said that they wouldn't want to get me lynched, especially since that'd be the only reason to leave me alone during the night phase. Any actual research into any game I've ever played in will tell you that this is the case (except for Newbie 1337, where I apparently JK slipped and was killed n1). And my reads have nothing to do with who is or isn't on my wagon, especially since I've been clear about my reads since the beginning, and have been calling the same people scum all game.

[Bulbazak]

HD, if you don't think that ThAd is the vig., are you saying that he's lying about targetting me, and if so, for what purpose? What does that tell you about my alignment?

[Bulbazak]

@PV: I've already given my thoughts on neighborhood setup spec. It does little good without a flip.

@Rena: I was the counterwagon to Nero yesterday, which was led by Nero himself. I think us both being on the Slandaar wagon is a poor indicator of us being scum together. If anything, I'd say it's much more plausible to believe that Nero switched wagons, because he didn't want to be caught as the leader of a wagon on town, which also happened to be his counterwagon. That would have given him unwanted attention the next day, the same type of attention I'm getting now.

@Nacho: You owe me some answers.

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, what do you think about the fact that I was the counterwagon of Nero and Seanald yesterday? And why do you disagree about the Nero scum read? I thought you were for it yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, shouldn't town have something like a watcher, though, since blue team had a ninja?

[Bulbazak]

Ffullisade, I'm quoting this again because I'd actually like a response.

Ffullisade, I'm quoting this because I think you might have missed it:

Ffullisade, it seems to me like your case against PV largely depends on Bulba flipping scum. At least your primary reason for suspecting him (herding votes onto Slandaar) does in my opinion. Please consider moving your vote there.

Every time I read #5116, it just pings me a little more. That question is so leading.

HD, if you don't think that ThAd is the vig., are you saying that he's lying about targetting me, and if so, for what purpose? What does that tell you about my alignment?

1. Yes.
2. To pretend he's a vig. Duh.
3. Nothing.

So you're saying that you think ThAd is lying about being the vig (i.e. scum) and is therefore lying about who he targetted, yet that tells you absolutely NOTHING about his target? I understand we're in multiball and everything, but you should still be able to come to some conclusion via PoE.

PV.

Seanald.

^That makes me angry.

Weren't you just saying a moment ago that you were still for Seanald-scum?

Perhaps, but I don't think Nero has nearly the amount of cache that Bulb is giving him credit for here.

He's still managed to build up a wagon on me 2 days in a row. Why don't you think he's able to manipulate the town past the point of my lynch?

@ Underline: Yeah, it makes sense for scumBulb. Why is townBulb shying away from following through with his neighborhood spec? Why was he so gung ho to get a neighborhood flip if he was going to withdraw from that line of thought after he got it?

I was gung-ho yesterday, not just because of the neighborhood spec, but because I had a scumread on Slandaar for the longest time, and his 8 scum commment followed by his thinking that 2 scum from 1 team were in the neighborhoods gave me the strength to finally see that read through. Unfortunately, I was wrong, which was a humongous shock to me. I'm not exactly ready to try again, just on the basis of spec.

I still disagree on the "big threat/small threat" distinction, I don't think it makes sense from a town PoV and it looks to me like a fabrication on Bulba's part to justify his inconsistent behavior. Scum is scum.

Some scum are more dangerous to the town than others.

You've pointed out yourself that Seanald would be easier to lynch because of strong resistance to a Nero lynch. Bulba doesn't seem interested in reaching a consensus.

So you're saying I should go for the easier lynch, rather than trying to get rid of incredibly dangerous scum? Besides, I'm not the only one who supports a Seanald lynch but is not pushing him at this time. I am more than willing to consolidate my vote should I need to. But we still have time before deadline, so I don't see the need to rush and compromise at this point.

I don't understand at all his unwillingness to jump back into neighborhoods today, he claims to have a strong read on Seanald independent from his neighborhood status and he's already playing the "woe is me, I'm useless and a mislynch waiting to happen" card, which makes it completely counter-intuitive for him not to try to validate his beliefs wrt to the neighborhoods. It's not like he has much to lose in his purported state of mind.

So you're saying that because "I don't have much to lose." I should be going after an easier lynch? No, if I'm going to be lynched, then I'm going to let my death drive the final nail in Nero's coffin.

Why would I unvote when I'm down for a bulb lynch? Its not like I care if he gets lynched before I get to the other posting I need/want to do.

Don't think I've been lurking a week and

its not like I'm the only "lurker" in this game

. Infact, I think I've been quite active lately. I admit that I've been rather lazy these past few days but lurking. lol

Can you quote the post where I claimed VT?

Translation: "Hey there are other lurkers in this game, why are you looking at me?"

If you have no clue why I think this is scummy, then you haven't been reading anything I've said.

[Bulbazak]

*his accusation that I am scum 'cause of my "deflect" is both selective and forced

No it's not. You kept trying to steer the conversation away from the original point.

*I do not like his hardcore buddying of the CTD

I haven't been buddying up to CTD. This is just mudflinging.

*I find it suspicious that he didn't vote for themon

I had limited access and wasn't caught up at the time. There was no way I was going to put down a vote of any kind when I didn't know what the current state of the game was. For all I know, I could have accidentally hammered someone, and there was no way I was going to do that.

*his backtracking on his each team has a scum neighbor

Nope. I still think that if there is 1 scum from a team in the neighborhoods, than scum from the other team will be there as well. I'm just not ready to immediately jump back in after yesterday, and I'd rather let scum be found there via actual scumtells, rather than theory.

P-edit: Because he's scum, and I'm not quite convinced about anything you've said.

[Bulbazak]

@Nacho: Do you honestly think that rolecop was the only investigative role that we had?

[Bulbazak]

@Nacho: Do you honestly think that rolecop was the only investigative role that we had?

do you believe all of our investigative roles have been outed?

I thought for sure that town had another investigative role besides Eddie (rolecop is kinda weak, imo), and given the ninja flip, watcher seemed to fit the bill. I also would think at this point that another investigative role would have enough information to start making headway in the game via PoE, and would have thus shared results. I guess they could just be playing it safe for another day, but the longer the game goes without such a claim, the more I think that Rena is our last investigative role. Now if there's something wrong with my train of thought, please inform me, but I see no reason to lynch what could be our last investigative role at this time.

but hey
that still doesn't answer my question of why are you pushing on Nero when no one is pushing it with you and no one has been for a very long time?

Because I think he's scum and want him dead, I'm not convinced by any of your cases on PV or Rena, and I still think that a Seanald lynch, while best as a compromise lynch on scum, is not the best lynch for the day when Nero-scum, or some other form of destructive scum, is running rampant.

We have 8 days before deadline. I'm in no hurry to move my vote. Let's talk.

We should still be lynching Bulb, even if he's town he'll be nothing but a distraction/no one will miss him.

This is just bad. Now you're trying to push my lynch as PL this late in the game?!? You're desperate for this lynch to go through, aren't you.

PV, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with those vote counts. Spell it out please.

[Bulbazak]

Explain to me why #4681 is bad. I'm obviously not seeing what everyone else is.

[Bulbazak]

There was definitely that one time when you were like "don't shoot ctd, shoot me instead". I think that would count as buddying.

I never said that. I didn't want you to shoot CTD, but that was when there was an exceptionally strong townread of him, to the point where he was considered def. town. I said that almost anyone else would shed more light on the game then him, including myself. I did not shout "Shoot me!". I left the decision up to you while seeking to keep you from killing the strongest townread.

[Bulbazak]

To be honest, purposely JKing a claimed vig would be stupid, as it defeats the entire purpose of having a vig. It would be much better to JK someone you didn't want to die to the vig. Also, if he believed your claim to be legit, there's no reason to assume that you WOULDN'T watch the vig. I honestly don't believe KK blocked ThAd, and I don't know why you would either.

[Bulbazak]

Although I can answer that my PV scumread is in between MM and RayFrost, leaning more towards an MM scumread.

Can this be put in terms that I understand?

Nacho helped lynch Master Mew in Voided. When he looked back at who MM replaced, he realized it was Titan, who was an extremely strong townread, which made the MM vote a mistake on his part. In my first Newbie game, Nacho called out RayFrost's slot as scummy and pushed on it the entire game. He would not let up on it, even when no one else could see it, and urged people to vote the slot. That slot flipped scum. Essentially I just asked him to rate his conviction from 1 to 10 using game examples.

[Bulbazak]

So you're saying that you think ThAd is lying about being the vig (i.e. scum) and is therefore lying about who he targetted, yet that tells you absolutely NOTHING about his target? I understand we're in multiball and everything, but you should still be able to come to some conclusion via PoE.

Yes, that tells me actually nothing about the target. I'm not sure why you're so set on the fact that it does.

Because I'm trying to understand your thought process. I would think there would be some line of reasoning that would allow you to reach one conclusion or the other, but you're claiming that your line of reasoning would lead to no conclusion whatsoever. Essentially, you threw something out there that would lead to, you claim, no reasonable set of conclusions. This bothers me, because you are one of the few in the game that I'm still trying to figure out what your motivation is. You were very active on d1 and were at least able to voice your reasoning for your thoughts. You dropped a little on d2, but still, you were making well crafted arguments. However, you've seemed to be coasting since then. I'm just trying to make sense of all of this, hence why I'm asking about your line of reasoning.

[Bulbazak]

@HD: I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

@Nacho: For Rena, same scale. How sure are you?

[Bulbazak]

If I'm no lynched today: hey dude, if you're a town PR who blocked me, don't do that again? x.x I'm pretty sure KK targetted ThAd anyway and thats why neither of us could action.

after this?
i can't call it a rayfrost read but it's pretty damn close.

Ok, I trust your read if it's that strong. I still want you to address this, though, since it's my major concern:

@Nacho: Do you honestly think that rolecop was the only investigative role that we had?

do you believe all of our investigative roles have been outed?

I thought for sure that town had another investigative role besides Eddie (rolecop is kinda weak, imo), and given the ninja flip, watcher seemed to fit the bill. I also would think at this point that another investigative role would have enough information to start making headway in the game via PoE, and would have thus shared results. I guess they could just be playing it safe for another day, but the longer the game goes without such a claim, the more I think that Rena is our last investigative role. Now if there's something wrong with my train of thought, please inform me, but I see no reason to lynch what could be our last investigative role at this time.

[Bulbazak]

So you want any other investigation roles to claim?

I didn't say that. Given what's flipped, it makes perfect sense for there to be a watcher. Nacho says that it doesn't, because watcher would be too powerful and that we likely (?) have another informative role. However, I find that unlikely, since we're on d4, and I'm sure that if we had another informative role that they'd have something worth producing. I just don't see it. I want Nacho to explain how that version of events makes sense, but not us having a watcher.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, has Rena produced any valuable information? No. And watchers are strong as fuck. Do you really think it's that impossible for a different investigative role not to have any valuable information at this point if one even exists?

Personally, I don't see how Watchers are any stronger then, let's say, a cop, since they have to actually be watching the right person, and then they only find out who visited that person, meaning they get nothing alignment related. Cop would actually be stronger, since that role at least gets alignment information.

If we were to say that town doesn't have any watcher/tracker, then that leaves 2 possible investigative roles left: cop and gunsmith. If we had a cop, I'd expect that he would have had enough information by this point to reveal it and essentially ensure a town win (4 innocents creates a nice block.). Same for gunsmith, since the vig has already claimed, that only leaves mafia with a gun.

What I want you to explain is why we should lynch what could be our only remaining investigative role, because I'm not seeing the logic behind it.

there isn't a big enough for this shit. Seanald put on a nice show in the QT overnight and appeared to have committed himself to the game, and then he does nothing but sheep a post I made about Bulb and whatever these two posts were meant to do.

Let me get this straight... I called it right when I said that Seanald said something to you in your QT that made you question your scumread on him, and yet you attacked me for even suggesting it? What the heck, Desp?

?????
So Bulb never joined the Sean wagon yesterday? I'll have to look into that.

I don't like this at all. You'd have to go out of your way to misunderstand what CTD said. There is no way you could have gotten this out of that, especially since a simple ISO would show you you're wrong. This is just a way to softly manipulate people into thinking I'm scummy, that way you don't have to work as hard to push my wagon.

The same can be said for everything else Nero has done in relation to my wagon recently. He's starting to go very subtle with his misinformation.

Answer this question straight up, because you've dodged the fuck out of it, Nero:
Why was your vote on Slandaar at the end of the day and not on Bulba? You had to concede the only reason you had given to suspect Slandaar and you had been making a strong case and push against Bulba up until the deadline frenzy.

I don't think I've ever dodged this. I think Slan's explanation that "we should assume the max # of scum" was craptastic and the fact that scum already tried to push a 7-8 man scum game made me fairly suspicious. In hindsight, I goofed but its ok 'cause we can lynch Bulbscum today.

Answer the question.

4 days, 3 hours, 53 minutes.

and still no one wants to join the nero cain wagon

I don't like the Rena wagon, and Nero is still scum.

@HD: I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

No.

There's a difference between "Do you believe ThAd's claimed kill choice affects my alignment?" or "C'mon, you

must

think ThAd's kill choice affects my alignment

somehow

!"

All I'm trying to do is understand your thought process, especially since you've been coasting since d2. However, all you're doing is trying to squelch discussion, which is a humongous scumtell for me.

Seriously, what is it with people lately not wanting to discuss their motivations?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb

What?

[Bulbazak]

I'm not seeing Nero-town, and I have not seen an adequate reason why Rena should be lynched.

[Bulbazak]

and the game isn't run on logic

what do you think of Nacho's "Rena claimed, but is still not doing any contribution and doesn't have any information yet" case because I think it's a good reason

I think the contribution/activity point is null, and I think it makes sense that she doesn't have any information, since as I said before, she'd have to be watching the right person in the first place. Her not getting any results last night makes sense given what little information we do have on the night points to it being a gigantic tangle of WIFOM. I'd say if you would want to look at any of her results as suspicious, it would be the HD results, but only because she tried to say that made him auto-town, when all it did was say that no one visited him.

All I'm trying to do is understand your thought process, especially since you've been coasting since d2. However, all you're doing is trying to squelch discussion, which is a humongous scumtell for me.

Seriously, what is it with people lately not wanting to discuss their motivations?

I'd hardly call accusing you of lying a "squelching of discussion" as you put it.

How am I lying? Asking for your reasoning is not lying, just like disagreeing with you is not misrepping.

I don't like this at all. You'd have to go out of your way to misunderstand what CTD said. There is no way you could have gotten this out of that, especially since a simple ISO would show you you're wrong. This is just a way to softly manipulate people into thinking I'm scummy, that way you don't have to work as hard to push my wagon.

My bad. I have a bad habit of expecting people to mean what they say so when CTD said that you never tried to lynch Sean I assumed that you never tried to lynch him.

Sorry, I don't buy this for a second. Especially since you tried to use my unvoting Sean, which was done in an effort to give CTD time to post final thoughts, against me yesterday.

So why are you more upset at me than CTD over this?

Because CTD never said that I didn't vote Seanald yesterday.

[
We are in agreement that Bulba adjusted his reads in a way that doesn't feel kosher, but your deductions don't make much sense at all. Specifically, I don't see any reason why you're not considering Seanald/Despo as Bulba-buddies. The fact that he's not trying to get Seanald lynched despite having him as a scumread along with you strikes me as odd because it would give him further insight into the validity of his theory. This could mean that he's scum with Seanald, but it also makes sense if he's scum with Despo (not wanting to lynch into his neighborhood because it reduces his breathing room).

The fact that you don't even consider this tells me that a)you are not actually thinking things through in a pro-town manner and b)you are going out of your way to tie people to Bulba.

Furthermore, Bulba's play is pretty obviously designed to keep me lynchable down the road (or rather make me lynchable in the first place), making it even more dubious that you'd zero in on me as a Bulba-buddy.

He's clearly talking about me voting/pursuing you over Seanald today, which I've explained my reasoning for multiple times. There is no way you should have confused that with "Bulba didn't vote Seanald yesterday.". You were trying to twist CTD's words to fit your purpose and trying to manipulate town into thinking that happened so that my lynch would go through.

In fact, I'm not really sure why people are ignoring the fact that Bulbazak is outright lying about his intentions.
I'm going to point this out for those of you that might have missed this exchange:

Bulbazak: "Do you think ThAd-scum claiming I was his kill target is relevant to my alignment?"
Me: "No."
Bulbazak: "But you must have

something

related to that that is relevant to my alignment!"
Me: "No. Why are you trying to subtly imply you're town on this nonsensical line of reasoning?"
Bulbazak: "I'm not, I'm scumhunting!!!!"
Me: "No, you're doing what I just said you were."
Bulbazak: "You're quashing discussion, you're scum!"
Me: ":neutral:"

Actually, it was more like this:

Me: You claim that ThAd is lying, both about his role and targetting me. For what purpose would he do so, and how does that effect your read on me?
You: It tells me nothing.
Me: So you think he's lying, and it does not inform your read whatsoever?
You: No.
Me: Walk me through it. You must have some line of reasoning that led to your conclusions. What were they?
You: I'm not scum! Quit trying to push me! You are trying to influence me! Scum! Scum!
Me: I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just trying to understand your thought processes and motivation, especially since you have been in the background since d2.
You: I'm not telling you anything.
Me: I just want to understand your thought process. Why don't you want to discuss your motivation?
You: Liar!

Again, walk me through your thought process.

[Bulbazak]

And it's weird because you called it

my

line of reasoning when I never said that was my line of reasoning for calling you scum, ever. Wassup?

I was beginning to think you were sheeping, especially since you buckle and can't defend your position when questioned on it. This is most apparent when you backed up Nero earlier in the day. When questioned on your position, you had no idea what you were standing for. Again, you've been coasting since d2 and hoping nobody noticed.

The bolded are twists of the truth or don't actually exist. Mostly the latter except for the first bolded line.

Really? Let's look at them again, shall we:

Me: Walk me through it. You must have some line of reasoning that led to your conclusions. What were they?

Because I'm trying to understand your thought process. I would think there would be some line of reasoning that would allow you to reach one conclusion or the other, but you're claiming that your line of reasoning would lead to no conclusion whatsoever. Essentially, you threw something out there that would lead to, you claim, no reasonable set of conclusions.

This bothers me, because you are one of the few in the game that I'm still trying to figure out what your motivation is. You were very active on d1 and were at least able to voice your reasoning for your thoughts. You dropped a little on d2, but still, you were making well crafted arguments. However, you've seemed to be coasting since then.

I'm just trying to make sense of all of this, hence why I'm asking about your line of reasoning.

You: I'm not scum! Quit trying to push me!

You are trying to influence me! Scum! Scum!

like that is the weakest thing you could possibly push me on right now

also, saying you were going for "my thought process" is sorta nullified by the fact that you were trying to push me to say it

did

affect something

that's not trying to understand my thought process, that's trying to influence it

Me: I'm not accusing you of anything.

I'm just trying to understand your thought processes and motivation, especially since you have been in the background since d2.

@HD:

I'm not trying to push anything.

I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

You: I'm not telling you anything.

@HD: I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

No.

There's a difference between "Do you believe ThAd's claimed kill choice affects my alignment?" or "C'mon, you

must

think ThAd's kill choice affects my alignment

somehow

!"

Side note: I have no idea what you were trying to get at in the bottom part, so I left it alone. The important part is you refusing to get into your motivation and thought process.

Me: I just want to understand your thought process. Why don't you want to discuss your motivation?

All I'm trying to do is understand your thought process

, especially since you've been coasting since d2. However, all you're doing is trying to squelch discussion, which is a humongous scumtell for me.

Say that I'm lying again. I dare you.

Anyone up for lynching human destroyer instead?

Not today. He's likely to trip and expose himself before too long.

You've been putting in a lot of work on this game desp, keep up the good work.

Do you really think buddying can help you at this point?

Unvote

Vote Seanald

[Bulbazak]

I believe that's L-1. There better be intent, followed by time for a claim/final reads. If not, I'm going to hunt the hammer vote down to the ends of the earth and make sure they hang.

[Bulbazak]

I don't think you counted Baezu's unvote.

Nope. Missed it. Okay, Seanald's at L-2.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D5)

Town

ThAdmiral
Desperado
Nachomamma8
PeregrineV
Ffullisade
Cephrir

Null/Town

Amethyst Kitty

Null/Scum

Baezu

Scum

Penguin_alien
Human Destroyer
CrashTextDummy

Vote CrashTextDummy

[Bulbazak]

You think he's red scum Bulb? Because I'm pretty sure I was wrong about one of CTD/ffullisade and that they are red scum

I think he's the last blue scum hiding in the neighborhoods.

[Bulbazak]

AK brought up something that I forgot about.

PV you wanna vote Rena?

If Rena flips town like she claimed, I'm putting my vote here tomorrow.

You know what? I've reread the last few pages and I do think rena is leaning more town for me.

I think scum is hiding in the current wagons.

Really thinking Seanald and Nacho are scum.

Baezu, if you are so sure that Nacho is scum, why aren't you voting him? And if you are no longer sure that Nacho is scum, what changed you mind? Also, explain the Amethyst Kitty vote.

[Bulbazak]

Sorry about that. I was working on this yesterday, but something came up last minute, followed by an intense migraine later that night.

We get the first red flip of the game and you opt to dive back into the neighborhoods despite your overwhelming hesitation yesterday? Ignoring any red scum hunting to go for blue? I agree with those saying there's almost certainly a blue scum lurking in the neighborhoods, but whether we had a scum-scum team with Seanald-Desperado, a scum-PV matched with the (very likely) vig-ThAd, or scum-CTD doing a fake panic reaction with Slandaar Day Two, I'm not certain. There are points in favor of all of these. If we can't come up with anything better to lynch, that's all well and good, but given your extreme hesitation to vote anyone but Nero Cain yesterday, I'm skeptical. At this point we don't know for absolute certain that there is blue scum in the neighborhoods (hard to imagine there's not) but unless red scum had two neighborhooded members, it's certainly to their advantage to eliminate as many neighbors as possible at this point.

I believe I stated multiple times that should we lynch scum in the neighborhoods that I'd be trying to root the other one out. This is especially true since finding the last remaining scum in the neighborhoods will also most likely result in getting rid of one of the NKs. Why wouldn't I go for that?

Also, I'm pretty sure on who the last scum is via PoE, which I've outlined multiple times. I have actual reasons for going after CTD rather than another member of the neighborhoods, and I think I'm right on the money. If you don't think so, then please explain why I'm wrong.

Although Cephrir points out good reasons why Bulbazak and Seanald didn't post about each other like scum buddies would be expected to. But Seanald makes a point of responding to Bulbazak's question in #3167 Then his voting for him is always for weak reasons, like misrepping his vote on AA9 in #4542 Looking at Bulbazak on Seanald, sure, he takes potshots at him. But it wouldn't be hard to pick on a lurking scum buddy for ultimate town cred.

To be fair, Seanald going out of his way to pacify me like that is what sent my scumdar into overdrive and placed him fully into my scum pile. I was even ready to lynch him d3, but got off to allow CTD time to post his final thoughts, which he never delivered. Saying that I was

only

taking potshots at him is, therefore, wrong.

I don't want to let anyone off the hook for now.

Yes, we have to keep our options open, don't we...

Your #5523 is much better.

I can take an educated guess at why you're voting me, but elaborate on some of your other reads. Looking at your list at the beginning of yesterday, you've moved PA from null/scum to scum, HD from null to scum, Ffullisade from Null/Scum to town. I would like all of these explained.

I've had a weak suspicion of PA ever since BS, but I was unsure of the validity of that read, given how many people I was reading as scum. I moved her into the null range until I could get a better read on the game. Given the limited number of scum left and the amount of scumreads I have left, I moved her back into the scum pile, because she's not that null of a read. However, since my read on her as scum is based off of BS and some possible blue tells I saw d2, if I'm right about the amount and location of blue scum left in the game, she'll probably be moved out of the scum pile soon.

Ffullisade is a town read based off of her reaction at the end of d3 and on her interactions d4.

The only reason HD was null yesterday was because I was trying to sort his slot. Based on his play earlier in the game and the way he was acting when I questioned him yesterday, I feel pretty confident that he's scum.

Seanald flipping scum doctor puts a new light on Bulba's unwillingness to pursue him yesterday. He was stuck on Nero for the whole of yesterday despite repeated prodding from Nacho to move to a consensus choice, for stated reasoning "Nero is the most dangerous of all scum, he must die before anyone else", which he dropped awfully quickly once the tide began to turn against Seanald.

First, Nero was a stronger scum read for me, so of course I was going to pursue him before Seanald. Second, I told Nacho that if he was able to get a Seanald wagon going, that'd I'd join it in a heartbeat. Lastly, I started considering moving my vote onto a compromise wagon during the weekend, since no one wanted to go after Nero. However, the only major major wagon at the time was Rena, and I would have rather kept my vote where it was and have been yesterday's lynch than put my vote there. Closer to deadline I noticed that 3 people had voted for Seanald, so I moved my vote there in order to lynch my other scum read.

Why do you think mafia are two teams of three?

The typical scum:town ratio is 1:3, which would suggest 6 scum. If both teams are equal, that means 2 teams of 3. I think it's better to assume the least amount of scum possible, as if you're wrong in that case, it's easier to reevaluate.

@ thad

come here honey you are starting to worry me a bit.

also why did baezu sub in if all he is going to do is immediately go on v/la and try to lurk out the rest of the game?

no

HELL NO

y'all don't make me use the shouty font

VOTE: baezu

How am I lurking? I've posted at least daily since getting back from V/la. Also, this is Bacde's slot. If you didn't have him as scum it means I'm not scum.

sorry AM. just trying to apply pressure. You're town - you're not getting lynched

Peregrine jumping on the wagon without explanation though is superscummy.

VOTE: Peregrine

This is just bad. Hiding behind your predecessor. Apologizing for a vote and immediately backpedaling, which is essentially pacifying town. Then you go after someone who is getting a lot of attention. This needs to die soon.

I'll catch up with the rest of the game later tonight.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak making up reasons to lynch people who want to lynch him is cute. Poor scum.

I've been pretty clear about why I think certain people are scum. Trying to discredit my position by dismissing it as OMGUS just solidifies my read of you.

AK brought up something that I forgot about.

PV you wanna vote Rena?

If Rena flips town like she claimed, I'm putting my vote here tomorrow.

You know what? I've reread the last few pages and I do think rena is leaning more town for me.

I think scum is hiding in the current wagons.

Really thinking Seanald and Nacho are scum.

Baezu, if you are so sure that Nacho is scum, why aren't you voting him? And if you are no longer sure that Nacho is scum, what changed you mind? Also, explain the Amethyst Kitty vote.

The nacho vote was mostly as a tribute to bacde, who I know is extremely fond of nacho lynches. I'm not convinced about nacho either way, but from what bacde said, he can usually read nacho pretty well. I'm torn. I'd like to vote nacho based on bacde's experience with him but I can't really justify doing it because I haven't had much experience with him.

Who knows? I may get a bug later and vote for nacho anyway just to honor my predecessor - crazy game, this mafia...

So fencesitty...

Don't misrep me. I never said I wanted CTD lynched. if I did my vote would be on him which it isn't.

I don't see how you

aren't

following PoE and going by your own reads if you think there's still scum left over in the 'hoods.

Redscum gonna make some good points about bluescum.

Why are AK and Pere both still alive?

Why

would

scum keep me alive?

Exactly. You ARE scum, that's why you're alive.

I can think of alternate explanations.

Also, if I were scum, I would just jump on a wagon and try to hide in other people's votes. Scum tend to agree with easy wagons and lynches. I have had my own opinions. Maybe my case on PV isn't great, but I do believe he's scum.

I think I might get drunk off of all this WIFOM.

Like ffery said - read my other meta - I suck at this game as town for whatever reason. My reads, contrary to my posts, tend to be pretty accurate, though.

"Read my meta"? Just you saying that invalidates anything I might find even if I decided to metadive. You're using your meta as a defense while doing nothing to contribute. So, no, I'm not going to trust you to be town based on the VI defense. I've seen too many examples of scum using that to their advantage, and I don't want to risk it at this stage in the game.

The 'not letting anyone off the hook' was meant to refer to the possibilities of scum left in the neighborhoods, although I don't see a situation where I'd support a Desperado lynch. Not a general, 'anyone could be scum!!!' statement. I'm town reading ffullisade, Cephrir, probably Nacho, ThAd, and Desperado.

Fair enough.

I honestly haven't said that nacho isn't scum. I just think PV is scum too. If we can get a nacho wagon going (something that hasn't been even remotely close to happening this entire game) I'd be on it for sure.

Anyone interested now?

No.

[Bulbazak]

Also, I'm pretty sure on who the last scum is via PoE, which I've outlined multiple times. I have actual reasons for going after CTD rather than another member of the neighborhoods, and I think I'm right on the money. If you don't think so, then please explain why I'm wrong.

Do you have actual reasons other than neighborhood speculation?

I didn't like the way you pushed me yesterday. Your primary reason was that you thought I was scum partners with Nero and that we were distancing from each other. Yet, with your primary case on Nero, you were voting for me instead. Later, you said that you still thought Nero was scum, but that we were not partners. However, you still kept your vote on me. All your reasons for voting me yesterday were repeatedly countered, yet you continued to push them almost out of desperation.

On hindsight, I also no longer feel that the plays I thought made you town came from a town mindset. Your wanting time to post final thought was a survival mechanism, since ThAd was going to shoot you during the night, and although you commented on everything else in the game, you purposely held off on delivering any final thoughts whatsoever. If I was town in that position, my primary focus would be getting those final reads out first, followed by commenting on current events. You stalled for the entirety of d3, and in the end, you still didn't deliver any final reads, although I think people had forgotten about it by that point.

I also feel that my initial gut read of the massclaim suggestion was correct in that it was rolefishing. Sure, you eventually came out with reads based off of it, but given the time between the initial call for a massclaim and your analysis, that would have been easy to fake.

I also no longer feel that you outing your neighborhood was town driven. You saw an opportunity in Syry's flip, and you essentially threw your neighbor under the bus for towncred, and subsequently suggested this line of investigation, which you are now trying to refute. I think that you saw it as a chance to gain towncred, and as soon as you realized that Syrys' flip wouldn't help you in that regard whatsoever, you quickly withdrew it, which I'm not sure you would if you were town.

I don't get not moving your vote off of Nero when it was very clear there was support for a Seanald wagon, lynching Seanald should have been a very desirable outcome for you and you made no attempt to make the day about anything other than Bulba vs. Rena.

I moved my vote off of Nero, because it was close to deadline and no one was willing to lynch Nero with me. To be honest, I would have preferred a Nero lynch, but since no one was willing to vote him, I switched to my other scumread, whose wagon was building up.

My case for Peregrine:

I think the purple cat is town.

Calls AM town

Calls AA9 scum:

My thoughts from the vote history:
Red Ryu was either killed because Red Mafia was looking to kill Blue Mafia, or Red Mafia wanted to get rid of a strong townie.
The fact that his wagon got to 6(?) votes at one point means he couldn't have been too townie, so he was probably killed while being scumhunted by Red Mafia.

Since I think that rather than waste thier kill on the Blue mafia team if they can help it, Red Mafia would first try, in some way shape or form, to lynch Blue mafia if they can.

This means, common sense-wise, one of the following is

Red Mafia

:
Bulbazak
penguin_alien
Kublai Khan
Human Destroyer
ArcAngel9

Then quickly changes to town when she pushes him:

@ArcAngel- I have you as probably town based on play, but I want to have the reasoning presented fully so others may be able to use it.

Remember he thought AM was town - well- apparently not:

@Bulba-I thought I did multiple times.

Spoiler: Selected postings of Thor chasing Amethyst Kitty

I'm vaguely town-reading Thor

What changed, scumCat?

But, taking this trip through your ISO reminded me that I'm unclear on a majority of your stances on players. Can I get your T-->S list?

I hate those and consider them dumb.
Here are just reads;

1. thezmon221 - null
2. CrashTextDummie [1] - townish leaning a touch null
3. Cephir - null leaning a touch scum
4. Nachomamma8 - townish
5. PeregrineV - Eh, I seem to recall DLG as being scummish - so, scummish.
6. Nero Cain - townish (very ish)
7. Bacde - null
8. EddieFenix - null
9. Bulbazak - town
11. Red Ryu - scummish
12. Syryana - null
13. Desperado - null
14. penguin_alien - null
15. Slandaar - scummy
16. Oversoul - townish
17. Seanald - scummy
18. ThAdmiral - town
19. Haylen - null
20. Kublai Khan - town
21. Amethyst Kitty (Malakittens+MS Marangal) - scummy
22. !BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy+pirate mollie) - scummy
23. Om the Destroyer (Human Destroyer+Om of the Nom) - town
24. ArcAngel9 [1] - town

I'd like to know what pushes look Genuine because I havn't really paid attention to KK and I think he looked pretty bad towards the end of the day yesterday

Why?

Amethyst also sidled away from this question.
I know now you're thinking the slot looks townish, or at least less scummish, but I still want this answered.

Not necessarily, I just don't see why you would find him town.

It's gut at the moment, he feels like he's legit working, not fake working.

Yes, it is consistent.

She lies about things she's done to avoid explaining them and fakes emotional breakdowns as town?
Links to any examples?

Let's be peaches together.

Unvote: Haylen
Vote: AmethystKitten

So if you have a townread on me and a scumread on mollie and I'm calling mollie town, that's not a good thing.

I don't really have a legit town read on you.
I have a 'I don't think his bad play is proof he's scum' read on you.
But I'm willing to see the links you'll show me.

Spoiler: Thor Nightkilled

<<< The spirits of the citizens were lifted by them finally making progress, but with night having fallen, they never knew what was in store for them the next day. All the thrilling adventures of bullets flying and corpses falling! Not to mention, that one drunken fool ranting and shouting in a loud voice, wandering about.

"YOU YOUNG RASCALS MOVE TOO QUICKLY! Back in MY day, we could have civilized conversations, and be intuitive about them. Why, even in my inebriated state of mind, I am still twice the man you are! I can hold my liquor, I have standards, and I don't go wasting my money on some trivial things! I am a sexy seductive man, AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT! But I don't let my ego get in the way of CONVERSATION, YE DARN FOOLS. If you had taken your time, MAYBE we could have gotten MORE than just what we did, AND YET you were SO determined to WASTE your lives that YOU RUSHED into WHAAT SHOULDA BEEN SIMMPLE. So I SWEAR TO MY BEARD THAT--"

*piff*

Finally. Something shut him up.

And with that, everyone could get a peaceful night of sleep. Bad things might still be happening, but the future looks bright. Soon, the streets could be cleared of the wretched scum, fellows who could sneak into a house and rob the residents blind without causing any alarm.

...In fact, they're clear of one such fellow, unlucky enough to have been startled by the shouting of a lunatic drunk. In the streets, he was vulnerable to being gunned down. The citizens of the street would rejoice come morning.




...Until they learned that "could sneak in and rob a person blind" doesn't translate into "actually does sneak in and rob a person blind". Certainly this young fellow had sneaked into houses, but not with malevolent intent. An ex-thief who had retired to the streets because they were peaceful, this man was clearly upset to see the things he despised about himself re-lived in front of him from an outside perspective. But the real giveaway that he was no threat? His identity is made clear as

Eddie Fenix

, a teacher...at a police academy. He had turned his life around and been reborn as an upstanding citizen, and thus, was of no threat.

Though not quite as much of an upset, the people are still saddened to learn the method by which the crazy drunkard many of them secretly enjoyed the musings of had been silenced. Shot point-blank with a silencer, Papa

Thor665

lay dead, his horned helmet not offering him the invulnerability of the god (and simultaneously, devil) he claimed to be.

Still, life goes on, and a new day has dawned. What's the worst that could happen?

(Oh, dear...)

>>>

EddieFenix

,

Town Rolecop

,

Shot Night Two

.

Thor665

,

Vanilla Townie

,

Smurfed Night Two

.

Day three dawns with 18 remaining.

With

18

alive, it's

10

to lynch.

Day Three's deadline is Monday, July 1st, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-07-01 12:30:00).

Spoiler: Selected postings of Khan chasing Amethyst Kitty

....really all in one page right in a row, someone is scum here. I lean nacho/Cephrir most.

If you're going to make this (bad) point, why leave off the BeautyAndTheBeast vote? It followed the Cephrir vote and had the same general format {no other comment except vote}.

Why not include the other couple of votes on the same page?

its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Why did an OS wagon pop up?

He's been the scummiest player all game.

are we seriously Lynching OS? that dude is town as fuck.

If Oversoul flips town. Amethyst Kitty is definite scum. (calling a town flip while doing nothing to prevent it)

Vote Nero, People. There IS An OS Alternative.

Why do you do shit like this? You were voting Oversoul, then you jumped off and are promoting a counter-wagon. All of this without any post by Oversoul? WTF?

If you don't think Oversoul is scum, then why did you vote for him at all?

If you say that this is a hydra miscommunication thing, then one of you seriously needs to drop this game because this sort of shit is ridiculous.

Not defensive, I just have issues with people coming into page 99 of a game and trying to make an argument based on the first 10, acting like they're hot shit as they do.

Why? The first ten pages of the game are where scum are most exposed. They haven't started figuring out how to manipulate people yet.

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

Technically you broke the multiball cherry in Post 1377. Also, the big difference is that you wrote

likely

multiball whereas they said something along the lines of "it might be multiball because I'm too much of a stubborn fool to admit I'm possibly wrong about a scumread". (Paraphrased, of course)

+ you're not on the town list because you haven't stood out as town.

Also, you're really stretching the definition of multiball if you want it to include 5maf+1SK. Multiball is two scum teams.

Still trying to convince Mala of my read, while I do so I'm going to say that this is a clever way to set-up two mislynches.

Calling it "clever" speaks volumes about yourself.

first, I did not " do nothing to prevent it" and I have been calling OS town all game. part of my attack on Nacho was because he was choosing such a terrible target to go after early on

Yes, you've literally been calling Oversoul town all game. Whoop-de-doo. Anyone can post an unexplained stance repeatedly. But if you really, really didn't want Oversoul to be lynched (you've been clearing him with the tenacity of a mason), then you would have explained the town-read. Or made a better case besides going "hey that guy!".

From my vantage point it looks like you're trying to earn townie-brownie points by calling Oversoul a mislynch. And I'm going to deny you.

then there's his interactions with OS. He just recently stated that he felt like he couldn't trust OS for doing the gambit, though when OS initially admitted that it was a gambit,

instead of showing distrust he was actually open to what OS might have learned from it

. The only time he has ever shown any negative emotion towards OS and what he's done with his gambit is when OS wagon started picking up. Before then, he didn't really care about him

Also, how in the world is the above even remotely scummy?

Well, at least you stuck with your second soft claim.

...eh, that post still feels fairly town and I think it flows with the logic of your fakeclaim gambit.

That's null. I called attention to the softclaim when I made a case on him. He had to make it part of the new claim.

Plus he's claiming a role he's had in another game.
Plus he listed the

number

of BP that he is.
Plus he has no credibility since he's a proven liar.

Why are people not on board with this lynch?

I'm curious to see where Amethyst Kitty's line of questioning is going. But not really. They are scum.

Quick, somebody (not Amethyst Kitty) name 5 reads that Amethyst Kitty has.

If you have to ISO, then you have to uncover 10 substantial reads.

Can't be done. Amethyst Kitty is a hydra double-posting nothingness.

---

I'm not bothering reading any Bacde posts until he can post something substantial and not just random braindead tunnelling bullshit.

---

ok so Red kills syr, but why does his team let him?

Oh, Seanald is scum too. He's been playing enough to not WIFOM a NK so strongly. Especially with such open leading questions.

Did anyone get a message from Syryana confirming his alignment? If not then I'm guessing that Seanald-scum or someone in his mafia did.

---

The question remains: What do you think of CTD's claim and its implications?

Didn't you just chastise Seanald for posting IIoA?

---

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

And Bacde is claiming vig with no kill on the board? I smell bullshit on that one.

---

Though, actually, who was it who was actually telling me that OS's claims didn't make logical sense considering his eventual BP claim?
That person needs to sheep me more, but I want to call them town at this stage.
I sorta think it was KK though...so...meh.

Was me.
I've got a town-read on Haylen right now though. How would you feel if I started an Amethyst Kitty wagon?

I probably will soon, but I want to do some reading first. So probably Monday.

I am referring to KK

and he honestly didn't even bother with us until I started voicing my suspicions on him

You've got that backwards.

1784 - Amethyst Kitty - "Cephrir, Nacho, Ryu, Eddie, and possibly Hanzo are my scum reads."

1809 - Kublai Khan - "Very willing to lynch Day 1: Red Ryu, Oversoul, Amethyst Kitty, Baby Spice"

1868 - Amethyst Kitty - "Will talk to Mala, though I'd be fine with voting Cephrir, KK, Desp, and Ryu, possibly Thor and Nacho"

---

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

Reminds me:
What do people (not just KK, but KK can answer too) are the chances that at least one, if not two, of the neighborhoods are town-scum neighborhoods? I personally would say the chances are pretty good.

It's still out-guess the mod territory. And I've played with the mod in a multiball Large Normal with all-town neighborhoods. Treat as VT and scum-hunt normally.
---

@People paying any attention at all to the Vig claim -

Eh, we just lynched someone for lying about a claim. Who in their right mind fakeclaims after that?

Thezmon I saw as a link to scumcho, since he was the one being THE MOST fency and weird about me voting for nacho. So I strung him up. But he flipped blue--the only natural conclusion I could make, that continued my train of thought of the thezmon-nacho link, was to assume that nacho is indeed bluescum.

This is actually pretty easy to follow

Eh. It's more like you've already got the conclusion that Nachomamma8 is scum and you just followed whatever course it takes to re-reach that conclusion.

----

actually

VOTE: KK

I want this. His justification for Bacde scum looks like a reach and him not following through on the Kitty scum read after the toasty flip leads me to believe that he didn't really didn't really believe in that in the first place which means he probably was, in fact, looking to go after two mislynches.

Thing is, if we were town, based on what he has stated on us yesterday us not posting much should have triggered suspicion on his part. He hasn't even mentioned us at all today. He needs to die.

Toasty flip? WTF are you talking about? You mean Oversoul?

Do you maybe remember that there was a "blue mafia" flip at the start of the next day? Do you think maybe that was a bit of a game-changer? That maybe I had to reconsider things a little?

This game still has so many players that I haven't really conducted any deep-seated analysis. If I see activity from Bacde at the start of Day 3 that makes me want to shine a light on it and question it, then that's what I'll do.

I still find you quite scummy. Same with penguin_alien. I'll pursue the case when I'm good and ready to write it out properly.

tl;dr - Calm yo tits.
--

Still waiting on Rena to claim those results...

She already claimed them.

No cuz ur still scum. Our slot and penguin would be a better venue to go after than bacde. There is nothing he has done that is even remotely scummy. You need death.

You really want to go 1 on 1?

Okay. This is the perfect time to do it.

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

Reasons for suspecting Amethyst Kitty:

Early stuff:
> Unvoting without revoting in pre-game RVS.
--- This is strictly a move of appeasement and buddying.
> Post 900: Strong reaction against Red Ryu trying todirect night actions, but never spoke a word against anyone else doing stuff like vig-directing.
--- Fun Fact: Red Ryu flipped scum.

Oversoul stuff:
> Doing nothing to try to push any counter-wagons to Oversoul or stop his lynch in any way until I called her out on it.
--- After that, she started up a case on EddieFenix, which indicates to me that she knows I had a very legitimate point and changed her actions accordingly.

OMGUS! and now stuff
> Ignores me until I put her on a scum list. Then I magically end up on her scum list.
> Calls me out on OMGUSing her
> Drops it, but still keeps me high on her scum list.
> Makes a case on why I'm scummy, but refers to nothing that occured previous to first reason for calling me scummy
--- Smells like a reads first, justification later type of activity. Which she's been doing all game.
--- Also doing the bullshit hydra thing of "oh, my partner had a x-read, I'll let them explain" "...." <- No explanation or anything ever given

I don't do 1vs1 get over yourself. 1vs1 don't help anyone in my mind and sometimes are used as a scum advantage because it gets everyone so wrapped up in it and people forget to hunt.

Wait, what? You called me scummy and vote for me when there's a wagon on thAdmiral going on. But when that wagon disintegrates and I vote you back, you back off?

No cuz ur still scum. Our slot and penguin would be a better venue to go after than bacde. There is nothing he has done that is even remotely scummy. You need death.

Bacade stfu. You aren't fucking obv town. So just stfu.

How is Bacde both "not remotely scummy"

and

"not fucking obvtown" at the same time?

1) though, if you want to look at someone who is badly pushing at Bacde that is scum I would look at Khan because of the fact that not only does he push Bacde terribly, be had better pushes to go after, pushes that he apparently believed in but suddenly dropped for him.

2) I am also under the impression that he is a better player than this.

3) I also find it strange that he pins CTD as super-obvious town, but he doesn't give Bacde the exact same extension even though he's done a shit-load for town with his "anti-town" play.

4) His case on Oversoul was just as bad, if not worse than yours

5) his other cases are just as shitty

6) he made a shallow case on us based on Oversoul flipping town, doesn't pursue it.

7) when I originally bring up my scum read on him, all he does is ask if anyone remembers our reads and, in doing such discrediting us

8) we

were

scummy enough to warrant a wagon, though he doesn't really initiate it but waits to see if others would do it first

9) Sheeps onto Thez, because of what Bacde said who he currently finds scummy...

10) I had to actually PUSH him to make a case on he, and all the things he is calling me out on has very shallow thought processes to them.

11) alot of his reasons for things are just as, even his reasons for why he thinks people are town.

1) "Badly" is a useless judgement call to make in a mafia game. Were my points bad? Was the timing bad? It sounds like you just hate my choice of targets which, given that we have a named mafia group (i.e. probably multiball), there is no evidence that Bacde isn't a non-blue scum.

2) Really? A burden of proficiency fallacy as your second point?

3) CrashTextDummie is breaking things point rationally and in a way that I can understand his thought process. Bacde spends 75 pages calling Nachomamma8 scum with little reasoning, then "Squirrel!" they are voting together for someone. Then back to calling Nachomamma8 scum. I don't understand Bacde and he's very reluctant to explain himself. So he doesn't get the same town-points that CrashTextDummie gets.

4) Again. "Bad". Well, your case on me is bad. Damn, that's much easier to say something is bad instead of saying something substantial.

5) Ooh, "shitty". What a vocab!

6) Sorry, was busy lynching your scum-buddy Red Ryu the next day.

7) No, I specifically addressed the fact that your scum-read on me is based on nothing but OMGUS. You

still

haven't given an alternative explanation for why I ever ended up on your scumlist.

8) WTF?

9) Are you calling me scummy for lynching scum?

10) So shallow that you haven't bothered to refute or provide alternative explanations?

11) Oh shit, did you forget to write "bad" there? That's the lynchpin of your whole case! You can't be forgetting that word!

Summary:

When I replaced in, I found four players to be very scummy when reading: (Oversoul, Red Ryu, you, and Baby Spice/penguin_alien). I only have one vote and it's incredibly inefficient to make four simultaneous cases. So Day 1 I pushed a case on Oversoul. After Day 2 started, Bacde made a good case on thezmon221, so you got put on the back burner a little longer. Day 3, Bacde opened with some posts that rubbed me the wrong way because his logic doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Since he is a very active player, I made on case on him and

even he acknowledged that my case had a lot of merit

. Then the ThAdmiral case started up. I didn't agree with it, but I didn't have any reason to debunk it either. So I spent some time questioning it. Then that crumbled, so it was suddenly the perfect time to put my cards on the table about why I find you scummy.

Besides the fact that I'm "bad" and saying "bad" things. The entirety of your case seems to revolve on the fact that I didn't drop everything and try to constantly ineffectually get you lynched no matter what else is happening in the game. You seem absolutely mystified about the concept of a back-burner. I think this exposes that you've really only been skimming the thread and looking for mentions of your name so you can try to defuse any potential wagon before they start. Like scum does. Because you're scum and that's bad.

Khan, Red Ryu was killed at night... not lynched the next day... you just admitted to killing him. thanks for that.

I meant thezmon221, not Red Ryu.

I am not calling you scummy for lynching scum, I'm calling you scummy for attacking the leader of that day's scum lynch

YOU ADMIT THAT WE WERE A TOP SCUM-READ, YET YOU GO AFTER BACDE TODAY WHO LED THE LYNCH ON SCUM.

You proved the central argument of my case.

we were a scummier read to you all game, but you pursue Bacde today over us until I called you out on it. Bacde who lead the wagon on scum yesterday despite being under heavy attack. why?

That is the ONLY argument to your case and I've answered it 3 separate times (here, here, and here). You don't care. You literally do not care. So why do you keep asking "why?" as if you're scum-hunting?

and yes, you did try to subtly discredit us. I mean, what else would the whole "quick, who can tell me who are their reads" thing could be, especially when I'm attacking you.

You aren't even addressing my points, just throwing them off to the side... again

You were going around asking "Hey, why do you have a town read on KK?". I'm glad that you're acknowledging that that was an attack and not some sort of legitimate attempt to scum-hunt.

WTF? I addressed EVERY SINGLE ONE of your points. Try actually reading my posts. You've addressed nothing of what I've wrote. Not even a flat-out denial. Literally the closest thing you've done to addressing anything I've written it a 3 letter word. And I can actually use the word "literally" correctly.

Yeah that is pretty weak, in Khan's mind all three of you are bluescum so it's not really an outrageous mistake. Certainly not a freudian slip.

No, he's called us scum, but I don't thinks he's inferred that we are bluescum

Except when I showed that you were coaching blue-scum Red Ryu. You really haven't read a single thing I've posted, have you? Dingos monkey dishwasher fartfart. Doesn't even matter what I type right here at all.

Mala's tantrum and the followup by Mara feel very town to me, which is the first time since d1 that they have been townreading so strongly.

I'm stunned that someone can completely dodge a case; hell, not even appear to read it. Instead attack some random other people, say the word "psychological" a few times to sound smart then put on a little drama show and people call them town.

Bravo scummy heads of Amethyst Kitty. I'm actually impressed.

and no, you didn't answer that part of the argument you only reacted to it to make it look like you did. The only thing that resembles an answer would be the first post and even that one was

"you're scummy but I don't want to deal with you yet" kinda post. You don't just put your top scum-read on the back burner like that. just, no.

Okay, this is going to be revolutionary, so hold on to your seat. Mafia teams have

more

than one member. I'll give you a moment to process that idea.

So even if I think that you're scummy, I may put that aside for a moment if someone else is in the spotlight, because (*gasp*) they might also be scum. Insane, right? I might be trying to figure out the alignment of more than one person at a time.

Also, being that there are so many players in this game, I will react first to what's immediately happening instead of just random old stuff. So when Day 3 started and Bacde posted completely opposite reasoning for why he wanted Nachomamma8 lynched, I called him out on it. BECAUSE IT JUST HAPPENED. I really don't care that he was pivotal in lynching thezmon221 BECAUSE ALL SIGNS ARE POINTING TO A MULTIBALL SETUP. I'm typing stuff in caps BECAUSE ITS THE FOURTH TIME I'VE EXPLAINED IT TO YOU AND YOU'RE STILL POSTING DITZY BRAINDEAD CRAP LIKE:

you left us and went after bacde because Thez flipped Blue scum?

--

and I have read your post, and I have responded to you.

Link it. Is it that post where you call it "bad" four times? Because that's not a response.

Amazingly suspect timing. When Amethyst Kitty gets 7 out of 10 votes and is clearly scum, you suddenly decide to start a counter-wagon. You need to bring something more substantial to the table than "meh" and "Fuck it".

Explain to me in one sentence why ak is "clearly scum".

This reeks of an "I don't give a shit about your case" attitude.

Here.

--
@penguin_alien - I guessing that mastin2 listed Thor665 as "smurfed" instead of shot because it's "funny".

<<< This is correct. The Important Links post lists the correct flavor of "shot". >>>

So.. Back to lynching Amethyst Kitty?

I think you are red scum and there is someone on your team who is coaching you

Are you suggesting that the red scum team has day talk?

It's official. Bulbazak isn't scum. Same for ffullisade.

I'm not feeling an AK scum. It seems too easy.

I could easily see Seanald as scum ie lurking through most of the days to the extent I forget he's actually playing this game, coming in to bandwagon that sort of thing.

Easy? Pfft. The people on the Amethyst Kitty wagon were townier than those making excuses to stay off it.

If you want an easy wagon, look at Seanald. It's super-easy to wagon the guy that isn't putting up much of a fight.

Wrong. You get something from the lynch, but it's nor what you desired. You still get information, but it's using that information to your advantage.

Second time Amethyst Kitty has encouraged a wagon on someone that they aren't voting.

It's still a scum move.

what's the town motivation of setting up mislynches in the way Khan did because I can't really think of any.

Except I didn't "set up a mislynch". I pointed out that it's a scum move to say stuff like "hey, oversoul is town guys", and do

nothing

to prevent the lynch. No arguments, no counter-wagons, no show of town-tells, no meta arguments. Nuh-thang.

Except

after

I said that to tried to start a counter-wagon on EddieFenix. Because you knew that I was dead-on right.

Khan I take it you agree with my reservations re: the seanald wagon?

I do.

Kk:

I been told that if I move the vote its going right back on you. I'd vote Seanald, but I'm not allowed, but good job on trying to twist a conversation to your benefit.

Yet other people are saying so and so are scum, but you're not saying jack shit to them for not voting.

"twist a conversation"? WTF? It's one of the things about you I called scummy back in post 3770.

And calling someone town while not stopping their lynch IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DIFFERENT from saying "so and so is scum" and not voting. Only scum would try to play dumb and not understand that.

So we are back to this argument again? You need to let it freaken go I swear. This ISN'T helping anyone and certainly helping scum more by engaging in this useless tunneling behavior.

Kublai Khan - 1 (Amethyst Kitty)

---
Just reminding everyone that Amethyst Kitty is still scum.

I'm behind and reading.

Spoiler: Thor Nightkilled

Massive apologies for the delay. I should have set the deadline for Monday where I could have started day (close to) on time. My appointment left me quite a bit late. Sorry.

<<< High spirits might not be in plentiful supply, but the citizens are determined not to let that get in their way. I mean, looking outside, it's such a lovely day and night. The weather's gorgeous, there's no clouds, the stars the moon the sun are all shining, and it looks like things will be nice and

*BAM*

...Nice and bright. Sure, there may be a lot of bad things going on, but life would recover sooner or later. There's plenty to look forward to! If they would survive, the citizens would have a lot left to thrive on. The violence in the streets might be insane, but not a challenge impossible to beat. They may be up against demons, and they're not exactly angels themselves, but surely, they can manage to win. They're all happy to

*BAM*

*ahem*

All happy to be a part of this lovely city.

Come daybreak, they knew there would be casualties, but they didn't expect what they were going to see. Dead in her house was the purest of them: she had been sweet, innocent, young, and perhaps naive, which would make the loss of their dear little angel all the more of a tragedy.

ArcAngel9

was not a threat, yet clearly her death was meant as a message.

At the other side of town, the next dead body is found next to his van:

Kublai Khan

has been shot. But...why the heck was he driving a van in the middle of the night? Looking inside reveals the contents of the van: it's clearly meant more as a party van, because there's a luxurious couch along with alcohol and several drugs. But wait...what else is there? Knockout gas? Restraints to tie people? Hmm, maybe looking at the couch closer to see what's on it would b--EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWW, gross!

...NOBODY should have to see that. "Party Van" indeed. Just not the type of party half the members 'invited' to would enjoy.

...Despite the depravity present, searching for any connections to the mafia turns up nothing. No weapons, no notes. He was a harmless wisecracking guy who just so happened to have a dark side--which, given the nature of these findings, was probably meant to be used for good. >>>

ArcAngel9

,

Vanilla Townie

,

Killed Night Three

.

Kublai Khan

,

Town Jailkeeper

,

Killed Night Three

.

Day Four!

Deadline for Day Four is Wednesday, July 31st, at 12:30 PM, which is in (expired on 2013-07-31 12:30:00).
With

15

alive, it's

8

to lynch.

Also, keeps insisting on the hoods being clean when one was clearly dirty so far. So why can't others be dirty too?

Don't misrep me. I never said I wanted CTD lynched. if I did my vote would be on him which it isn't.

I don't see how you

aren't

following PoE and going by your own reads if you think there's still scum left over in the 'hoods.

The hoods are CTD, Desp, and ThAd. I think one may be blue.

That leaves 1 or 0 blue and 2 or 3 red out of

3. Cephir
4. Nachomamma8
7. Bacde
9. Bulbazak
14. penguin_alien
21. Amethyst Kitty (Malakittens+MS Marangal)
22. ffullisade (fferylit+pirate mollie)
23. Human Destroyer

So, why would I not do both?

I think he has tried to jump on convenient lynches and wagons and hasn't really given reads on anyone but the people he's been tunneling (AM and AA9). AA9 flipped green and so will AM

Vote PV!!!

That is a horrible case. 1.) Saying that scum is likely to be within a certain group is not the same as calling someone scum. 2.) Reads tend to change throughout the game. It is not unusual that PV's read on AK changed within 2000 posts. I've noticed that scum tend to like to make cases based on these types of connections, hoping to paint the picture of contradictions that don't exist. It is a stretched point, and scum tend to favor those. 3.) He actually said in the very post that you quoted that he thinks that there is blue scum in the neighborhoods. Your point there is invalid.

[Bulbazak]

If PV flips bluescum then I'd rather sort out the other blue before sorting Thad, if that makes sense.

Why do you think there are 2 bluescum left?

[Bulbazak]

Because 10 scum at the beginning of the game seems a bit excessive.

It does to me too. I'm just wondering why you're thinking 2 teams of 4 instead of 2 teams of 3.

[Bulbazak]

What read? The one that was made when I called you out on lying and you cried about how I was trying to stop discussion...even though we...continued discussing?

I didn't lie. I kept trying to get you to explain your thought process, and you kept refusing to do so and then would attack me for trying to understand your motivation. That's what I find to be scummy.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, someone needs to give me a PV-scum case right now, because, honestly, I'm not seeing it. This may have to do with how I'm reading the game, and all of the PoE I've done, but I'm not seeing PV-scum over CTD-scum. Why is PV more likely to be scum, especially considering that he's in a neighborhood with a vig.? How does that work balance-wise?

Also, everybody who is speculating on more than 1 scum per team in neighborhoods needs to explain right now.

Finally, if anybody hammers PV without giving intent and waiting for a claim/final reads, I will personally make it my life's mission to make sure that you hang before the end of the game.

Reasons. Go. Now.

[Bulbazak]

6 scum would be the normal for one team. I'm guessing there will be more scum because multiball.

I'm not following this line of thinking. How would it being multiball make having a higher than average total amount of scum more likely?

he's in a neighborhood with a vig.?

This has been discussed and the speculation here is useless.

Well obviously I don't get it. Humor me.

I didn't like the way you pushed me yesterday. Your primary reason was that you thought I was scum partners with Nero and that we were distancing from each other. Yet, with your primary case on Nero, you were voting for me instead. Later, you said that you still thought Nero was scum, but that we were not partners. However, you still kept your vote on me. All your reasons for voting me yesterday were repeatedly countered, yet you continued to push them almost out of desperation.

You expected CTD to vote the person without a wagon on them...?

I forgot that he initially voted for Nero and then switched when the odds tilted strongly in my favor. Still, with the primary reason for voting me being that he thought Nero and I were partners, why was he still voting me after he dismissed that line of logic?

I also feel that my initial gut read of the massclaim suggestion was correct in that it was rolefishing.

He does this every game, this is wrong.

Point taken. Massclaim discussion tends to make me paranoid.

I still want someone to explain the PV-scum case to me.

[Bulbazak]

The case is, basically, that it makes sense for there to be more scum among the neighborhoods.

That still doesn't explain why PV is more likely to be scum than CTD.

[Bulbazak]

I kept suspecting you because you continued to present arbitrary reasons to justify your actions. I maintain that your alleged theory stances look like excuses to support a scummy agenda rather than them actually informing your reads. These include:
- We have 2 3-man scum teams and only scum would suggest otherwise, used to push Slandaar

I was actually more suspicious about the reasoning behind that statement, which was that he had an above average amount of scumspects, and instead of reconsidering his reads, he just made the leap that there was a large amount of scum. That kind of thinking seems backwards to me, and I couldn't reconcile that with a town mindset.

- We have two scum within the neighborhoods, one each between my neighborhood and Desperado's, used to push Slandaar and myself, but not Seanald

Again, that was not my primary reason for pushing Slandaar. I legitimately thought that Slandaar was scum, making the neighborhood spec more of a supporting argument rather than a primary one. I was so sure that he would flip scum, that it completely caught me off guard when he did not. I wasn't ready to blindly jump into the neighborhoods again after a blow like that.

- Active scum is more dangerous than lurking scum, used to push Nero over Seanald

I still believe that and would have preferred a Nero lynch yesterday.

There is not only a strong trend of you placing bad votes almost exclusively based on theory stances that are at best debatable, but it's clear to me that you change your stripes depending on what suits your purposes at the time.

I believe I've been pretty clear about where I stand. Wanting to take a break and reevaluate is not the same as disregarding what I believe.

Based on memory, I asked for time because it felt like the game was very close to getting to night and I hadn't yet had a chance to formulate my thoughts. As the day went on, I did get a chance to post what at the time was relevant to me and after that it was implicit that I was okay with the day to move on. You were all "welp, I can't do anything because I don't have permission from CTD", which is entirely your problem, not mine.

I'll have that post up tonight so Bulba can place his vote again. Sorry for the delay.

Btw, that post never came. I eventually got tired of waiting for you to help town by giving your final reads, and I also came up with a way to keep you alive. A big controversy got started, you chimed in, and everyone forgot that you had promised a final post. You essentially kept your head down during that period and hoped that people wouldn't notice you. As I said, if you were town, it shouldn't have taken that long to prepare what you said you were going to prepare (the whole reason I unvoted Seanald in the first place: to give you the time you needed). However, you taking

over a week

to prepare such a post is excessive, especially since you only said 1-2 days, and tells me that you never planned on making such a post to begin with.

What you're accusing me of makes zero sense as a "survival mechanism", because it doesn't do anything to improve my chances of not getting shot by ThAd.

But what it does do is buy you time that may result in ThAd deciding to go after someone else, AKA what actually happened.

I also feel that my initial gut read of the massclaim suggestion was correct in that it was rolefishing. Sure, you eventually came out with reads based off of it, but given the time between the initial call for a massclaim and your analysis, that would have been easy to fake.

This is a silly accusation not only because I've made this exact play several times as town, but also because you generally can't analyze reactions without allowing for time to pass in order for those reactions to actually happen.

I was not familiar with your meta, so I was not aware that you tend to do this. I've already withdrawn this point.

you were only willing to go with your assumption on days 3 and 5, but somehow not on D4 when it would have been Seanalds turn under the spotlight.

I've explained this multiple times. I was not ready to blindly jump into the neighborhoods again after the Slandaar lynch.

By "close to deadline", you of course mean the day before deadline, which we all know from personal experience is the best time to start actually start working towards a lynch.

I had actually been looking to consolidate my lynch around Saturday, but the only other wagon was the Rena wagon, who I was not going to vote for. Given that, I kept my vote on Nero, since I still preferred him as a lynch. I moved to Seanald after I noticed that he actually had a wagon, AKA what I said I would do earlier in the day.

If pere isn't scum we kill ctd. Simple.

This is horrible.

Pere and CTD could both be scum. Unlikely, but possible.

I'd actually say extremely unlikely to the point of impossibility.

Why pv over ctd? Because he is more likely of the two to be lynched right now.

That doesn't answer my question. Why is PV more likely to be scum than CTD?

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

also if bluescum dies that isn't a roleblocker, ThAd dies immediately.

Which of these reads takes priority for you, Nacho? Or are they not mutually exclusive?

ThAd read takes priority; doesn't make sense for redscum to have two killstoppers or for bluescum to have two roleblockers, so if we kill bluescum and there's no roleblockers, then ThAd dies instantly. The reads aren't necessarily mutually exclusive: if PV flips redscum, I'll be extremely suspicious of ThAd. If PV flips bluescum then I'd rather sort out the other blue before sorting Thad, if that makes sense.

You seem to be missing a lot actually...

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

First, a SK AND multiball? Seriously? You are seriously suggesting that in a game where we've had 2 kills every night and that there is confirmation of 2 teams, just so you can push your horribad case on me? I'm disappointed...

Second, I've addressed the "lying" point already:

What read? The one that was made when I called you out on lying and you cried about how I was trying to stop discussion...even though we...continued discussing?

I didn't lie. I kept trying to get you to explain your thought process, and you kept refusing to do so and then would attack me for trying to understand your motivation. That's what I find to be scummy.

One of the primary reasons that I have found you scummy all game is that you don't even try to address or counter arguments made against you. You just automatically shout "misrep" or "liar" as a way to discredit what is being said and then try to get people to follow your BS case. This is the main reason why I also have a residual scumread on PA's slot (The BS case on Nacho that Syry so wonderfully dismantled.). I really don't think you're trying and hoping that people will just follow your lead without looking at the arguments too closely.

Finally, that obv-town statement from you is piece of fiction and you know it. We've only been in 2 games together, and at no point in either of those did you call me obv-town. In fact, in Voided I was mislynched by the town, and in Bad Apples you showed extreme suspicion of me up until your cop claim. You also were better logic-wise in those games than you are here. I'm not getting any sense of town HD here (Yes, I know you were scum in Voided. But I'm also considering that you forgot that you were scum in that game, which makes that game more in line with your town meta than scum meta.), and I think town HD would know better than to make a weak argument such as that.

[Bulbazak]

You seem to be missing a lot actually...

Oh, I know there's stuff from yesterday.

But what happened to all that stuff today, with Rena actually dead and flipped town? Where's the follow-through on his statements?

All of the quotes from Nacho in that post are from this day phase. Saying that Nacho is not suspicious of ThAd after the Rena flip is a lie.

Firstly (regarding your quote above this that I forgot to address), it's funny because that's not what you asked me at all. You asked me what I thought about ThAd and how it related to your alignment, not what my "thought processes" are. I mean don't get me wrong, you put the words "thought process" in there...but it isn't what you were asking. Not at fucking all.

So you're saying that you think ThAd is lying about being the vig (i.e. scum) and is therefore lying about who he targetted, yet that tells you absolutely NOTHING about his target? I understand we're in multiball and everything, but you should still be able to come to some conclusion via PoE.

Yes, that tells me actually nothing about the target. I'm not sure why you're so set on the fact that it does.

Because I'm trying to understand your thought process. I would think there would be some line of reasoning that would allow you to reach one conclusion or the other, but you're claiming that your line of reasoning would lead to no conclusion whatsoever. Essentially, you threw something out there that would lead to, you claim, no reasonable set of conclusions. This bothers me, because you are one of the few in the game that I'm still trying to figure out what your motivation is. You were very active on d1 and were at least able to voice your reasoning for your thoughts. You dropped a little on d2, but still, you were making well crafted arguments. However, you've seemed to be coasting since then. I'm just trying to make sense of all of this, hence why I'm asking about your line of reasoning.

@HD: I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

All I'm trying to do is understand your thought process, especially since you've been coasting since d2. However, all you're doing is trying to squelch discussion, which is a humongous scumtell for me.

How am I lying? Asking for your reasoning is not lying, just like disagreeing with you is not misrepping.

Again, walk me through your thought process.

And it's weird because you called it

my

line of reasoning when I never said that was my line of reasoning for calling you scum, ever. Wassup?

I was beginning to think you were sheeping, especially since you buckle and can't defend your position when questioned on it. This is most apparent when you backed up Nero earlier in the day. When questioned on your position, you had no idea what you were standing for. Again, you've been coasting since d2 and hoping nobody noticed.

@HD: I'm not trying to push anything. I'm just saying that you should have some line of reasoning behind your actions. Whether you think I'm town or scum, you should have some line of thought that led you to that conclusion in conjunction with ThAd's actions, who you are claiming is scum. I'm just curious about your thought process, because you have been hiding in the background since d2.

No.

There's a difference between "Do you believe ThAd's claimed kill choice affects my alignment?" or "C'mon, you

must

think ThAd's kill choice affects my alignment

somehow

!"

Side note: I have no idea what you were trying to get at in the bottom part, so I left it alone. The important part is you refusing to get into your motivation and thought process.

Say that I haven't been asking about your thought process and motivation. I dare you.

You'll have to show me these counter arguments I don't appear to be answering, cause I don't really see them.
Hint: Repeating the same, addressed point over and over and saying it slightly differently is NOT a new counter-argument.

I never said counter argument as in 1 word but as 2 words. I'm saying that you haven't been countering ANY of my arguments. You've simply shouted "misrep" or "liar" or "scum" and hoped that people would follow you on it so that you wouldn't have to actually address anything I say.

In voided you were obv-town and I was fighting against your lynch like crazy. Did you forget this already?

From a quick scan of your ISO in this game, it's true that you called me town and wanted another lynch, but it was more defensive as if staving off an attack on yourself. I can't recall you being super gung-ho on stopping my lynch in that game. In fact, I mainly remember being betrayed by those who read me as town (I'm looking at you Nacho.), as well as my standoff with DGB. You defending me doesn't readily come to mind.

Bad Apples I also remember you being one of my strong townreads so...what up? I'll check it again if it's really that fething important, but I like to think I know when you're fething town.

just checked, I flip-flopped a lot, but after the initial suspicion early on, I was fairly confident you were town

it's day 5 now, whereas I figured out you were town day 1 in that game (or maybe day 2?).

my confidence in my ability to read you as town remains.

You seriously thought I was scum pretty much all of d2, after I went completely paranoid on you. That scum read seemed to have dropped by d3 when you claimed cop, and the switch seemed out of the blue for me.

Either way, I think both instances show that I definitely wasn't obv. town.

[Bulbazak]

okay, I said that wrong, let me clarify it for you

and I'm only going to say this one more time because seriously the first time should have been enough

You are

not

asking for all my thought processes and motivation. You

are

asking for what I think your alignment is and thought processes are based around ThAd scum that influenced in your alignment...which I said there were none...3 times...and you kept insisting on asking the same question...right...

I asked about my relationship in regards to your ThAd read twice. Overall, I've been focused on trying to understand your lines of reasoning. This is the backbone of EVERYTHING I ask. When you sheeped Nero's line of reasoning, I questioned you on the validity of said reasoning, to which you didn't respond. I've since tried to get you to shed light on why X or Y is scum or why X is more likely to be scum over Y, essentially, your entire line of thought. If you think X and Y are scum, I want to know WHY you think they are scum and how/if they are connected. The same goes for WHY X is more likely to be scum over Y and vice versa. You haven't been providing any of that, which is alarming, since you tend to be a bit more logical as town. You are essentially trying to skate by in this game and avoid any line of questioning related to your thought process and motivation. To be perfectly honest, I could care less WHO you think is scum. I'm more interested in WHY you think they are scum, as that is the easiest way to judge your intentions and motivations.

[Bulbazak]

okay, I said that wrong, let me clarify it for you

and I'm only going to say this one more time because seriously the first time should have been enough

You are

not

asking for all my thought processes and motivation. You

are

asking for what I think your alignment is and thought processes are based around ThAd scum that influenced in your alignment...which I said there were none...3 times...and you kept insisting on asking the same question...right...

I asked about my relationship in regards to your ThAd read twice. Overall, I've been focused on trying to understand your lines of reasoning. This is the backbone of EVERYTHING I ask.

When you sheeped Nero's line of reasoning, I questioned you on the validity of said reasoning, to which you didn't respond.

I've since tried to get you to shed light on why X or Y is scum or why X is more likely to be scum over Y, essentially, your entire line of thought. If you think X and Y are scum, I want to know WHY you think they are scum and how/if they are connected. The same goes for WHY X is more likely to be scum over Y and vice versa. You haven't been providing any of that, which is alarming, since you tend to be a bit more logical as town. You are essentially trying to skate by in this game and avoid any line of questioning related to your thought process and motivation. To be perfectly honest, I could care less WHO you think is scum. I'm more interested in WHY you think they are scum, as that is the easiest way to judge your intentions and motivations.

Bolded: what reasoning and where

@Bulb

"+ there's atleast one scum in the neighborhood

s

and Slandaar makes a good bet. CTD might be scum afterall. He's ignoring discussing his neighborhood big time."

That's clearly 2 biggest scumreads from all 3 neighborhoods, hence the bolded pluralization.

So you're agreeing that a scum/scum neighborhood is more likely than both scum in different neighborhoods?

???

No, I haven't said that. I'm saying he had both players as scumreads.

A scum/scum neighborhood between two scum teams

is

possible though, I hadn't really thought of that.

In any case, one of them flipped town already, so that isn't even relevant.

The fact that Slandaar flipped town has no bearing on what Nero did while on the Slandaar wagon? He thought that both Slandaar

and

CTD might be scum, while pushing Slandaar. This either means that he thought they were in a scum/scum neighborhood, or that he thought CTD was scum if Slandaar flipped town. Nero is saying that he didn't think either, while still maintaining that he thought both were scum, which is contradictory.

The rest: You have not asked me why I think people are scum. I do find it quite interesting that you ignored my post on Page...226 I think? explaining exactly who I think is scum and why though.

Oh, you mean this?

assuming 3-3

I think nacho is red scum that went for the easy seanald bus, thad is his buddy

nacho was so quick to back the fuck off the moment thad claimed, started claiming that thad was a more likely scum roleblock target than rena but when rena flips town he doesn't seem to consider thad? unless I really missed something there

thad is on like super-survival mode, that x-shot distinction thing is sketchy as fuck, om was fairly sure dan was scum D1, he lacks towniness to a scary degree...omg just kill it already

Bulb is last blue scum, though if thad is somehow town, I guess he could be a BP SK? He's scum though, I'm pretty certain. he has evaded the lynch like twice somehow, even after being called on blatant lying. he also feels so damn mechanical this game, and he was so obv-town in other games I've played with him, I just don't see him being town in any reality.

PV I am not confident in my ability to read, I always seem to get it wrong, and I'm lazy, so I'm not even trying there

baezu slot troubles me but maybe it's 4-4 or maybe an SK? if it's 4-4 I'm fucking stumped as to who the last scum is, I'd probably entertain PV at that point tho

I think I'm comfortable with at the very least ctd, ffullisade, and desp, ceph I'm a little less sure of now

ps phoneposting sucks

To be honest, I really wasn't that impressed. It ignores pretty much the entire context of the game and comes across more as keeping options open on the most controversial slots. I addressed several of my concerns on this post, such as the fact that a SK is non-existant and that Nacho has been suspicious of ThAd since the Rena flip. What really stands out to me, though, is just how wrong the logic feels here, and I just can't see HD-town making this post.

That being said, I'm not willing to put HD at L-1 just yet, especially since the wagon seemed to build up real fast. Also, we have the last blue scum in CTD just sitting there being ignored.

@Nacho: You still haven't answered my questions.

6 scum would be the normal for one team. I'm guessing there will be more scum because multiball.

I'm not following this line of thinking. How would it being multiball make having a higher than average total amount of scum more likely?

he's in a neighborhood with a vig.?

This has been discussed and the speculation here is useless.

Well obviously I don't get it. Humor me.

I still want someone to explain the PV-scum case to me.

[Bulbazak]

Why do you want someone to explain PV-scum? He isn't getting lynched anymore

That doesn't meant that he's not going to get lynched ever, and I'm finding the explanations on the scumread to be a little lacking.

[Bulbazak]

I'm just asking it of Nacho again, because he never answered me, and he was one of the few in particular that I wanted the answer from.

[Bulbazak]

Desp, why does a person not going to be lynched matter? if Bulb thinks Pv is scum, and he wants to explain why then I don't see a problem with it

I don't think PV is scum. PoE tells me that CTD is likely the last blue scum, and I'm trying to understand the PV-scum case, because personally, I'm not seeing it.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think of my PoE?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, why does your PoE get you CTD instead of ThAd?

Desperado is essentially conf. town, since I don't see the only neighborhood scum from both teams being in a neighborhood together. ThAd has claimed vig., and I believe him, since I can't see scum acting the way he has. The "I don't give a crap" attitude is more indicative of town in this instance than scum, as I would think scum in his position would be more compliant with the town. That leaves PV and CTD. As I've said before, I can't see one scum team being given such a huge advantage over the other, which is what being paired with a vig. would be. Anybody who wants to explain PV-scum to me needs to explain that. Plus, I just like the idea of 1 killer per neighborhood representing each team (both scumteams + town). That leaves CTD. I'm even more confident in this given CTD's actions yesterday concerning my wagon. He was really trying to push it through as quickly as possible. He probably knew that once I died, my line of inquiry died with me, and as today has shown, even with acknowledgment that scum is likely in the neighborhoods, the majority of the town wants to hunt elsewhere.

[Bulbazak]

To recap, your excuse for everything is that you have weird game theory stances. That is

my opinion

. Even if I didn't think they were weird, I'd find it suspicious that they just so happen to align to get you to push town lynches and avoid scum lynches.

"Weird" theory stances? Not scummy, but weird? Then you back that up by just saying that it's your opinion. Seriously, the wording here is really wishy-washy. It's like you want to continue pushing me as scum but are now afraid of the backlash that would come after my flip. Also, where did I say that this was my "excuse for everything"?

Your new spin on things is that I tried to "push your lynch through quickly", which is a complete fabrication.

No it's not. Everyone else that day was taking notice on how strange you were acting when pushing my wagon.

First, what you're suggesting doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because people not buying into your theory with you alive shows that there would have been no pressing need for hypo-scum me to get rid of you.

Yeah, but I'm a tenacious little bugger.

Secondly, people strongly push for their suspect's lynch all the time, and you interpreting this as me wanting to lynch you quickly is nothing more than you arbitrarily projecting your case onto my play.

True, but normally when they push a lynch, they don't talk about someone else the entire time.

Thirdly, and this is the main problem with this whole line of reasoning, I actually

had

a reason to be "desperate", if that's what you want to call it, because I very strongly felt that Rena shouldn't be lynched, and being on your wagon and making sure it stayed ahead of hers was the only way I had of preventing that.

Nice try. The Rena wagon didn't really become a thing until AFTER I was brought up to L-1. Saying that you were on my wagon to protect her is a lie.

You are twisting my actions to fit your read, and that's what scum does.

That's funny, because I had a town read on you for the longest time. It was PoE and your actions following Slandaar's lynch that made me reconsider my read on you. Nice try.

This current HD wagon is almost an exact repeat of yesterday's Rena wagon. Minus PV, it has all same people as in that vote count I quoted, and as previously mentioned, I strongly suspect that there's scum in that group. On the other hand, it's also a repeat of yesterday's Seanald wagon, with Nacho leading and a whole bunch of people sheeping in quick succession, and that resulted in a scum lynch, so meh. The actual case looks decent enough.

What are you trying to say here? Because it looks like you're both for and against the lynch.

@Nacho: You still haven't answered my questions.

I've been thinking about them. Generally I find more scum in multiball than normal since crosskills, but that might be an incorrect assumption. I don't think PV is scum, but I also don't really think that it makes sense for a random vig to be tossed into the neighborhood. We're probably lacking on power roles at this point, so why is a vig given the benefit of a townie he can talk to while every other power role is completely isolated?

Why are scum given the benefit of a townie to talk to when figuring out their night actions? I'm not sure how strong a point that is and how that would really effect the balance in the long run. And if we are shorter on PRs than is usual, wouldn't it be better balance-wise to pair a townie with the vig?

The "I don't give a crap" attitude is more indicative of town in this instance than scum, as I would think scum in his position would be more compliant with the town.

In the end, I think that town is more likely to do something for the town ESPECIALLY if he had a strong read on his neighbor being scum and especially if he was continually getting roleblocked. He's been a useless sack of shit for a while now and I'm not so confident I'm more willing to believe that town would put us through this before scum would.

I don't know. I've met some town players who remained defiant until the end. I'm not sure whether this is a trait of ThAd in general, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at this time.

Bulbazak, why does your PoE get you CTD instead of ThAd?

Desperado is essentially conf. town, since I don't see the only neighborhood scum from both teams being in a neighborhood together. ThAd has claimed vig., and I believe him, since I can't see scum acting the way he has. The "I don't give a crap" attitude is more indicative of town in this instance than scum, as I would think scum in his position would be more compliant with the town. That leaves PV and CTD. As I've said before, I can't see one scum team being given

such a huge advantage

over the other, which is what being paired with a vig. would be. Anybody who wants to explain PV-scum to me needs to explain that. Plus, I just like the idea of 1 killer per neighborhood representing each team (both scumteams + town). That leaves CTD. I'm even more confident in this given CTD's actions yesterday concerning my wagon. He was really trying to push it through as quickly as possible. He probably knew that once I died, my line of inquiry died with me, and as today has shown, even with acknowledgment that scum is likely in the neighborhoods, the majority of the town wants to hunt elsewhere.

It's a huge swingy thing, and could be not advantageous at all depending on who wound up in the scum-neighbor and vig-neighbor slots. But, it's a point to think about.

Slandaar's flip was town vanilla neighbor.

Blue roles so far have been ninja and goon

red role was mafia doctor neighbor

I dunno. I don't think this takes PV out of the running for blue mafia neighbor.

Are you suggesting that red scum might be more powerful than blue scum in order to merit such a pairing? Because I'm not sure if we've seen enough flips to tell either way.

Could all three of PV, HD, and CTD be scum?

No.

[Bulbazak]

"Weird" theory stances? Not scummy, but weird? Then you back that up by just saying that it's your opinion. Seriously, the wording here is really wishy-washy. It's like you want to continue pushing me as scum but are now afraid of the backlash that would come after my flip. Also, where did I say that this was my "excuse for everything"?

The wording isn't wishy-washy, you've just entered full word-twisting mode.

Have I? Let's look at 2 parts from that post and see if what you say is wishy-washy or not.

To recap, your excuse for everything is that you have weird game theory stances. That is

my opinion

. Even if I didn't think they were weird, I'd find it suspicious that they just so happen to align to get you to push town lynches and avoid scum lynches.

This current HD wagon is almost an exact repeat of yesterday's Rena wagon. Minus PV, it has all same people as in that vote count I quoted, and as previously mentioned, I strongly suspect that there's scum in that group. On the other hand, it's also a repeat of yesterday's Seanald wagon, with Nacho leading and a whole bunch of people sheeping in quick succession, and that resulted in a scum lynch, so meh. The actual case looks decent enough.

In the first one, you start by calling my stances "weird" instead of "scummy" (I know you'll argue semantics here, but the point still stands.), following that up by stating that it is just

your

opinion, as if you want that to be stated should my lynch go through and I flip town. You then end with saying that if you didn't find my stances weird (not scummy), you'd find them suspicious (scummy), which seems to be a setup to continue pushing my lynch at some point in the future.

In the second one, you imply that HD is town by saying that it's a repeat of the Rena wagon. However, you then imply scum by saying it's a repeat of the Seanald wagon and saying that "the actual case looks decent enough". In essence, you refused to take a stance on his alignment.

In both of these posts, you both stated that HD and I were scum and not scum, but didn't come down one way or the other on our alignment. THAT is being wishy-washy. So no, I don't believe I'm twisting your words whatsoever.

You claim that I've been countered on everything, and that I am therefore scummy to continue my push against you yesterday and this is my retort.

No, I said your push yesterday was scummy, because you pushed my wagon while continuously focusing elsewhere. Your thoughts and your actions didn't quite line up, and by the end of the day, you were just sitting on the wagon while not commenting about it.

And no, you didn't say this was your excuse for everything, that is firmly my interpretation of your defense.

But at no point have I used that as my defense. I've defended my stances in game when asked about them, but never have I said, "I'm not scum because of my gameplay stances.". Seriously, what is this?

Your new spin on things is that I tried to "push your lynch through quickly", which is a complete fabrication.

No it's not. Everyone else that day was taking notice on how strange you were acting when pushing my wagon.

Show me quotes.

CTD also no longer makes me happy like he used to.

What about CTD do you not like Nacho? I still think he's town, though I don't think he's been as transparently genuine as he was earlier on in the game.

It's the loss of being transparently genuine that hurts me the most.

Cephrir
PeregrineV (DLG)
penguin_alien (Baby Spice)
Seanald
Rena(/Haylen) (fuzzybutternut)

all remaining scum is somewhere in this group I think

Scum-list, recently I might add CTD But I kinda don't wanna.

On closer inspection while looking back over those posts, they're not about the way you were pushing my wagon so much as the way you were acting in general after Slandaar was lynched. My mind kinda connected the 2 together. Still, people started getting suspicious of you due to your actions that day.

It's no secret that I would have preferred a Nero Cain lynch yesterday, but unlike you, I was willing to compromise.

I did compromise, on Seanald, as I said I would earlier in the game. Until that point, however, the only other viable wagon was Rena, and there was no way I was voting her.

It's also a huge stretch to accuse me of talking about someone else "the entire time".

Well you sure talked about him being scum more than you did me.

When the Rena wagon built up, I naturally intensified my efforts to get you lynched over her.

Except when the Rena wagon really started to build up, you didn't talk about me at all. You either were talking about how lynching Rena was a bad idea or how Nero was scum. In fact, I actually think you talked less when Rena was being wagoned than you did beforehand.

Exactly my point. The very same actions that made me your #1 town read to the extent where you would have preferred being vigged over me you now present as reasons to suspect me. If you had stuck to just your PoE, it would have at least sounded consistent, but you retrofitted my entire play to accommodate your PoE in order to cook up a case against me.

You're acting as if town never reconsiders their reads or anything else that happened in the game. After Seanald was lynched and I suspected that you were scum, I started thinking about your previous actions, and I began to see them in a new light. Face it, nobody's reads are constant over the course of the entire game, since they need to change as new information comes to light. I've found that scum tend to have very rigid reads throughout the game, as they think that changing or "reconsidering" them would be the same as contradicting themselves, even if the basis for such reconsiderations are present. They also seem to attack using that same system of rigidity, calling others scummy for contradicting themselves or being inconsistent, when it is simply a natural evolution of thought. Therefore, I find you attacking me for my ever evolving read on the game, calling it "inconsistent", scummy.

Who do you think was scum on yesterday's Rena wagon, and why?

If I had to pick one, Baezu.

@Bulba

- I like your posting, and think your town. However, when that happens, I also wonder how you can be that strong a town-read and still alive. Can you speculate about why that might be?

I'm a strong townread? When did this happen? I just thought that everyone was taking a break before they went for Lynch Bulba Round 3, because honestly, I can still feel that tension and urgency to make my scumhunting count before scum succeed in getting me lynched.

[Bulbazak]

We just finished Amruika Mafia, where I was scum and you did a great job catching me, but were unable to get your case pushed through all the way. I feel like you are at a similar situation here. The fact there are 2 scumteams and neither has deemed you killworthy (ThAd notwithstanding) means that, if town, your cases have been on town.

Didn't you push me as scum the entire time in that game and keep me around for Lylo?

[Bulbazak]

PV, why do you think scum would NK someone who keeps getting wagoned up?

Because despite those wagons, the lynch isn't happening. But, a Bulba kill would also happen if Bulba was putting hard pressure on scum.

It depends on the scum. I know that I personally don't kill those who are suspicious of me when I'm scum, as I view it to be a bad move. Maybe I could see scum killing me if I had the clout to make the lynch happen, but it seems that I do not, as people tend to ignore me when I go after a scumspect. I would actually think killing me would draw more attention than leaving me alive. But then again, anything having to do with night actions tends to be WIFOM.

We just finished Amruika Mafia, where I was scum and you did a great job catching me, but were unable to get your case pushed through all the way. I feel like you are at a similar situation here. The fact there are 2 scumteams and neither has deemed you killworthy (ThAd notwithstanding) means that, if town, your cases have been on town.

Didn't you push me as scum the entire time in that game and keep me around for Lylo?

We pushed you for scum because we didn't push ourselves, and the other players looked more townie than you.

Also, there were always better NKs than you (Doc, IC, townish hydra). So you going to lylo was either incidental or by Gorgon's design.

I mainly bring up that game because you were town there, and want comparisons to your game here.

The only comparison I can make is that I feel like I'm in a similar position this game than I was in that one. I feel as if I'm being largely ignored by town while scum continue to push me in one way or another until I'm either lynched or am too much trouble to keep around anymore. This game is also draining me in the same way that Amurika Mafia did, where sometimes it's a struggle just to keep playing, and I continue to do so, simply because I'm stubborn.

[Bulbazak]

It will probably return eventually. Until then, care to join me?

[Bulbazak]

@Bulba-

Run me down a scenario of blue and red remaining, IYO, if there are 2 teams of 3.

Then repeat for 2 teams of 4.

2 teams of 3:

Blue - CTD
Red - One of HD and Baezu. I originally thought that they were scumpartners, but HD's recent attacks on Baezu has started to make me doubt that. If you put a gun to my head, I might pick AK.

2 teams of 4:

Blue - CTD and PA. She appeared to soft defend Thez on d2, and that stuck out for me at the time and made me think that she could possibly be blue. The only other thing that sticks out scum-wise for me is BS's crappy Nacho case d1, which seemed awfully stretched to me. PA has given me more of a town vibe recently, though, so I may be way off here. Outside chance that HD might be blue scum for similar, albeit more subtle, reasons.

Red - One of HD/Baezu, as explained above. After that, I don't know. Maybe AK. Maybe Ffullisade. Maybe Cephrir. We're really getting into the realm of my townreads here, so I can't really give a solid answer. Really, I'd probably see what one of HD/Baezu flipped and reevaluate from there. To be honest, before I'd give another red scum read, I'd need to go through ISOs side by side with Seanald's. There's also still the chance that both HD and Baezu are red scum, which means that I'm not wrong about my townreads, but I doubt it.

To be honest, I'd rather lynch CTD-scum, get the information from the flip and the NK, and then go from there.

Is there a point to these questions? Because they seem strange, and they're making me very uncomfortable.

[Bulbazak]

If nothing else, I'd like people to at least weigh in on the neighborhood debate. We really need to lynch out of the neighborhoods, though.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Human Destroyer

I think PA is likely to be blue scum due to her soft defending Thez d2 and for BS's horribly stretched case on d1. I still don't know what to make of AK. Can somebody explain why PV might be scum?

[Bulbazak]

HD was reading townish yesterday

Were we reading the same game?

Bulbazak, if you really thought I was blue scum, why wouldn't you want me dead today?

To be honest, I've been in kinda a haze lately. I've had a lot on my plate, plus the flips really shook me up read-wise. I essentially just voted for my biggest scum read without consideration of team.

And as far as thezmon, go back and read what I was actually saying there. At the time, the only logical role to have been gifted via back up was 2-shot BP. I figured thez was keeping it under wraps and so didn't like Cephrir and others pushing it. (And now we know Cephrir was scum with a vested interest in taking out potential PRs) I didn't think thez would fake claim universal back-up in a game right after being on a scum team that faked said claim in a game where myself, Slandaar, PV, and probably others I'm forgetting were present. I realized I might be wrong about that when he got to L-1 and was still keeping mum, hence mentioning a possible inspiration for it being a fakeable claim.

That's understandable. What I don't understand is this:

Irrespective of thazmon221's claim, which I don't entirely swallow, Bacde, you're completely ruling out any type of reaction test being used there? Because it seems to me that if you want to get someone's attention, you're more likely to succeed if you suggest you think they're outright scum rather than anti-town.

thazmon221, on the other hand, why didn't you use your vote to pressure Bacde in that situation, since it seems like he was doing something you found scummy?

"Irrespective of Thezmon's claim"? That's essentially "I must acknowledge the claim and how bad it is, but let's ignore it." True that you said you didn't buy the claim, but you essentially completely ignored it and then attacked Thez's attacker. Your reasonings, which were given in another post were essentially you trying to salvage the situation. And I can kinda feel you chiding Thez at the end of that quote. It's like you're not even trying to figure out if Thez is scum, rather you are trying to coach him. I just didn't like your approach to the entire wagon.

Ftr, if the remaining blue scum is RB'er.. they probably can't use and block the same night hence Thad's shot not being blocked last night and going through.

In my experience, when there's only one scum member left, they can both kill and use their ability in the same night.

Also the fact the Ceph NK again points to us is pissing me the fuck off and is another reason I don't want to "roll over" to the possibility of PereV not being scum. Almost all the NK's have pointed to us which means someone is fucking toying and trying to frame us.

Okay, this crybaby "Woe is me." crap is seriously starting to tick me off. Nobody's out to get you! It's all you, you, you, and a refusal to look at the big picture. This is extremely survivalistic, as it only serves to say "I'm being framed!" if anybody even suspects you. Any lingering town reads I had on you are now gone.

Bulbazak was townish yesterday, but with ThAd confirmed, I keep going back to the failed shot on him with a red scum doc. If HD is the last blue (and so the only likely source of a roleblock) he could have blocked ThAd's shot on him, hence the two different failure types ThAd claimed.

And then proceed to ask a question involving said roleblock that confirms the mislynch I want to push as town?
Sounds like a great idea.

Yes, because scum wouldn't do townie things to look town.

Unvote

Vote Penguin_alien

[Bulbazak]

Yet...

you vote with us?

You're not red scum.

[Bulbazak]

EBWOP: You're not blue scum.

I really need to go to bed...

[Bulbazak]

also!

Bulb, why are you only looking at some of our posts and not all of them?

not everything that's coming out of this account is the "woe is me" crap and, while I do agree with you that it is annoying, and Kinda vain you aren't looking at anything I'm doing, you're looking at all of mala's post and using it to determine our alignment while ignoring my post, and the fact that I'm kinda the physical entity of this hydra while mala is the brains and stuff

I am considering all of your posts. I got a general town feel from them in the beginning, then I lost that. I regained it after your seemingly genuine breakdown, and even though you made some crazy plays, some of which were essentially saying "Yep, I did that thing I'm being accused of", I still had a general town feel from you, because who in their right mind would do something like that as scum? However, the later we got in the game, the more you complained about being "framed" and the more you sought to derail wagons on actual town, even though you never gave a decent reason why that person would be town. You didn't make many pushes yourself, at least none that were unique, instead mainly derailing wagons. Looking back, everything can essentially be seen as a massive play for towncred, with the WIFOM question "Why would they do that as scum?" keeping you alive. I don't think it's real anymore. I think it's all fake, and I've gotta say, I didn't think you had it in you.

Bulb?

are you still here?

I want to talk because all my town-reads are going to shit

I have a lot on my plate anymore. So this game isn't exactly my #1 priority. It might be my #3 priority, tops.

ugh, I'm just going to sheep desperado at this point

VOTE: Nacho

Why? Are you that convinced by a Nacho-scum case? Or are you just trying to skate by for as long as possible?

i might not trust bulbazak today and would love if you could reassure me since that is probably paranoia.

This seems rather sudden. What brought the paranoia on?

i would LOVE to see what happens after we lynch human destroyer because no one is even marginally reading him as town but for some reason they still don't want to lynch them.

He may be my strongest scum read, but he's not blue scum.

Because your D1 push on me blew ass.

Your push on Nacho d1 wasn't that great either.

[Bulbazak]

I am considering all of your posts. I got a general town feel from them in the beginning, then I lost that. I regained it after your seemingly genuine breakdown, and even though you made some crazy plays, some of which were essentially saying "Yep, I did that thing I'm being accused of", I still had a general town feel from you, because who in their right mind would do something like that as scum? However, the later we got in the game, the more you complained about being "framed" and the more you sought to derail wagons on actual town, even though you never gave a decent reason why that person would be town. You didn't make many pushes yourself, at least none that were unique, instead mainly derailing wagons. Looking back, everything can essentially be seen as a massive play for towncred, with the WIFOM question "Why would they do that as scum?" keeping you alive. I don't think it's real anymore. I think it's all fake, and I've gotta say, I didn't think you had it in you.

Everything you've pointed out as a scum posts belong to mala, today, you've only used her interaction to call us scum though you've completely ignored mine

are you able to tell the difference between us at all?

I consider the hydra as a whole. For some hydras, I may try to interact with certain heads to get or solidify my read, but in the end, all the heads of a hydra occupy the same slot, and it's useless to try to keep those actions separated in my head.

[Bulbazak]

I thought it did. Who signed a post does absolutely nothing several days down the line when I'm remembering what the hydra did. And I don't care to look back just to see who signed said post when.

[Bulbazak]

Not really, no. And I don't really care.

[Bulbazak]

PA picked up on something awesome that I'm going to quote again.

So ffery.

You really think Nacho is town?

Because...this is really shitty.

Really

shitty.

Oh

My

God


A reach-out. Why didn't this happen on day 5? Or before that?

Please don't say you're reading him as town based on this. It's pretty transparent.

Not really, no. And I don't really care.

Ok

the fact that it took you a while to give me a straight answer is making me think otherwise though

I felt I made myself pretty clear the first time. You just kept on wanting me to rephrase it. I'm reading your hydra as a whole. I don't really care who's posting.

Bulb, what do you think of these posts?

What am I supposed to think?

specifically the last one, because it has just as, if not more, potential to be construed as scummy compared to the post you chose to scum-read us off with.

When do I have to be told what I can find scummy about your posts?

If you're going to say you aren't ignoring my post, and are unable to even tell the difference between our posts, at least make the effort to scum-read everything we say as a whole and not just a select few

I find scummy what I find scummy. Don't try to discredit me by pulling this "you must find everything I post scummy" crap, because we both know this is a loaded question/post and a false supposition.

Yet...

you vote with us?

You're not red scum.

Pv, I'd like a response to this when you get back

Wow, you're going full on misrep today, aren't ya? How about you include the next post as well, so that PV has the complete picture:

EBWOP: You're not blue scum.

I really need to go to bed...

I went paranoid on AK first, then AK was incredibly incredibly town and I realize that her scumgame this game compared to her scumgame anywhere else would be akin to GOD TIER, so stopped going paranoid on her.

But AK is made up of 2 people. Are both of their scumgames THAT bad that they couldn't be able to play this type of game as scum together?

[Bulbazak]

But AK is made up of 2 people. Are both of their scumgames THAT bad that they couldn't be able to play this type of game as scum together?

It's not that their scumgames are bad, it's that it's harder to dodge meta tells when people are familiar with both of your heads to a degree. This specific situation would mean that both were playing an uncharacteristically impressive scumgame, which is unlikely.

Even when they're together?

Bulb, why are you voting PA again?

BS's case against you d1 was horribad, stretched, and as a result, scummy. Also, because PA soft defended Thez d2. If anyone is blue scum, she is.

[Bulbazak]

First, I must note that if I was on a scum team with Thez, no way would I be trying to coach him. And yes, I kept some of my thoughts to myself at first, which can be construed as anti-town. But I'd already managed to spark a wagon on 2-shot BP-Oversoul the day before; if there was a chance the power had legit been handed off, I wasn't going to add fuel to the fire to get the role killed off again. As far as questioning Bacde goes, we'd had two kills the night before, where one was the non-standard color Blue Mafia; there was a pretty darn good chance we were in multiball. In that situation, even if Bacde was scumhunting that didn't absolve him of being scum himself, nor did it mean he wasn't bussing irrespective of multiball issues.

Okay, then why didn't you vote him when it became apparent he was lying?

Did Baby Spice even have a case on Nacho? Because from the last couple posts of hers I read, it seemed like she was just rage-tunneling.

I had the same problem with her case on Nacho as I had with HD's case on me d1: She called any and all disagreements misreps or lies and sought to use that as the final word on the subject. Any objections she simply sought to discredit, including those not coming from Nacho, Syr in this case.

[Bulbazak]

S's case against you d1 was horribad, stretched, and as a result, scummy. Also, because PA soft defended Thez d2. If anyone is blue scum, she is.

Did you mention how much you hated BS's case before? Because I don't really remember anything like that.

Om the Destroyer

: I still have some reservations on this slot from d1. I didn't like how they white knighted Oversoul, or that they tried to avoid discussing my actual points, and instead tried to claim that everything I said was a misrep (Ergo: attempt to discredit the case). They also soft defended Thez on d2.

penguin_alien

: Same as Om. I had similar problems with her predecessor, Baby Spice. She also soft defended Thez, but she was more overt about it than Om was. Gut says partner.

PA did soft defend thez D2, but why does that really matter?

Thez had majorly messed up with the claim, and it was obvious that he had fake claimed. PA defended him and offered an alternate explanation and then focused on Bacde. It caught my attention at the time, because I didn't think that was a natural response to the situation. It looked more like she was trying to fix her partner's mistake and shift attention back on Bacde, who had been wagoned earlier in the day.

[Bulbazak]

Wonder what the crazy percentage is that Bulba is BP?

0%. Try harder please.

[Bulbazak]

That all you got, Bulba?

What did you expect? She tried to be subtle. I countered and ridiculed her. Pretty standard actually.

[Bulbazak]

PA is blue. HD is red along with AK. If we lynch blue, we eliminate a NK. Vote PA.

[Bulbazak]

Well that was interesting. Why'd you hammer your partner, Kitty?

[Bulbazak]

ffullisade: AK, Nacho, and Bulbazak haven't even checked in yet. Which actually makes me suspicious of that whole group, as I'd expect scum to want to see the lay of the land before picking a line of attack.

I'm going through ISOs, like I always do during Mylo/Lylo. My reread of yours + Baby Spice's ISO confirms my blue scum read.

ffullisade, I know I sound like a broken record, but PLEASE explain to me how, knowing that ThAd's shot on Bulbazak was absorbed by protection, only a completely inept JK would use a night action to hinder a vig proving himself, and red scum likely had the only other protective role, Bulbazak isn't scum. I get that people say KK had a town read on Bulbazak, but keep in mind that was also before Slandaar's flip made Bulbazak the counterwagon to a town lynch. Flips -> information -> changed reads overnight.

KK argued with me a lot after my plan to have CTD protected. Then there was that whole deal with the Slandaar wagon that happened at the end of the day. I'm actually not that surprised that KK JK'd me.

ffullisade, you said you're nervous about PV. Based on stuff from last page, I can see a scenario where he's red scum, but it's weak. I'm also not thinking that the push to lynch him two days ago fits in with that theory very well.

PV is conf. town! Why are you even softly suggesting PV-scum? He's not being lynched. Period.

Going to sleep, and then back to ISOs.

[Bulbazak]

You think KK protected you (and it would have been protection, not a roleblock, since you'd claimed VT) after seeing that you were the counterwagon to a town lynch?

I'm not so sure he was protecting me. I was involved in probably the most controversial lynch in the game, which was proceeded by a plan to leash the vig. I remember that he argued with me for awhile about that plan. He probably was blocking me to see if he stopped a kill. Just because I claimed VT doesn't mean that he believed it. I think he targeted me for the same reason ThAd did.

Please elaborate on where you planned to have CTD protected

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort. What I'm asking is that CTD be protected during the night phase, since he is essentially def. town, and we'll need him in the upcoming days. With that, the ball is in your court ThAd. If you really are the vig., you should know that this upcoming night phase is likely to be the only one to prove yourself. You can shoot at whoever you think is scum or is harmful to the town (although it might not hurt to ask for suggestions from the town itself, being that you outed yourself and all), however, should you aim at CTD, you will be wasting your shot. Anybody else is okay (even me), as there is enough contention with the rest of the player list as to gain useful information from a flip.

CTD, I'd still find those reads/final thoughts useful, just in case. Should the wagon get to L-1, I'll try to keep the hammer off long enough for you to get as much information as you want out. If anybody quickhammers with this in mind, I will make it my mission to lynch them.

and what was the deal with the Slandaar wagon at the end of the day that you think is relevant?

I was the competing wagon with Slandaar at the end of the day, and I pushed heavily for his lynch. In fact, many would say that he was my counterwagon. That was reason enough for some people to want me lynched the next day.

[Bulbazak]

Was there a point, or are you setting the grounds for something later?

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, so your argument is that you suggested the likely vig target be protected even though the vig needed to prove himself. Which made KK think you were town?

No, I actually think the opposite.

And you being the counterwagon to a flipped town wagon did make you a likely lynch the next day. Therefore very unlikely to be NK'd by scum. So how does it work that KK protects you when you're almost inevitably going to flip the next day anyways? He should hope that you do get vigged to save the town a lynch.

Obviously my flip wasn't that inevitable.

And if he thought you were scum under such heavy suspicion, why would he block you? The likelihood your team would send you out to kill when everyone thought there was a good chance of a tracker around (no way to know it was red scum's then) is very low.

I remember a lot of talk about Rena not being a town Watcher, not about there being a town tracker. Please illuminate me on these tracker talks, because I don't remember them. Also, how does that last sentence work exactly? The chances of scum-me delivering the kill is low, because there might be a tracker (which was never discussed), which is obviously town, even though it would be obvious to scum-me that there is a red tracker? I thought you were trying to argue for red scum-me here.

And let's not forget that we were dealing with a paranoid vig. There was no telling who he was going to shoot, which means there was no indication whether he would have shot at me or someone else. If KK thought I was scum, it would have been irresponsible for him to rely on the actions of the vig, especially when he could do something about potentially blocking the NK himself.

Regardless, this entire point is moot. You're trying to argue the motivations of a dead guy and whether he JK'd me or not, which to me, it is pretty obvious that he did. I'm just saying that looking back at d3, I can kinda understand why he did so.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not sure if this is for everyone or just AK, but I'm going to answer anyway.

Who is the blue scum?

PA

Who is the red scum?

I'm not sure, which is why I'm going through ISOs. I'm currently 1/3 of the way through Nacho's, after which I'll be going through B&B/Ffullisade (5 pages...).

[Bulbazak]

Hey bulba you're not trying to set up another 1-1-1 endgame are you?

I think someone walked over my grave.

If I was scum, I'd be trying to avoid that as much as possible. There's too many ways that could backfire. The only reason that happened in Donner Party was because I was townreading Mala until the final night.

Why are you even considering a 1-1-1 endgame?

[Bulbazak]

From what? The fact that I'm ISOing? I do that every time I'm in a game that gets to Mylo or Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

Ok? Explain.

[Bulbazak]

You are legit red scum hunting. Not blue scum. Red.

And? I've already found blue scum. The next logical step is to try to find red. It just turns out that it's more difficult.

My priority today is red scum. If you were town, you would be straight up red scum hunting

I thought your problem with me was that I was "legit red scum hunting". But then you say that your priority today is finding red scum and that I should be red scum hunting if town, which is why you are finding me scummy. So why am I scum again?

not going after someone who is likely either red or town and calling them blue.

I think PA is blue scum. Do you think that she's red or town, and if so, why?

Also, if you think I'm scum, what team am I on?

[Bulbazak]

I think you are blue scum. And I think your interactions today point to her being red scum with AK. But, I could be wrong, and could be mostly picking up on your assumptions in that interaction. In which case Nacho is the other red scum, which would suit my misgivings quite well, but I don't have any conviction at all that's the case.

Please explain this, because I honestly have no idea where you're coming from. Also, answer this:

I thought your problem with me was that I was "legit red scum hunting". But then you say that your priority today is finding red scum and that I should be red scum hunting if town, which is why you are finding me scummy. So why am I scum again?

[Bulbazak]

Has anyone seen Peregrine?

Semi-back today.

Who is the blue scum?


Who is the red scum?

Bulb and nacho are red

Mollie/ffer is blue

Revelations came today but isn't enough to get town out of this hole

Its pretty obvious that we don't stand a chance against scum


And its kinda cruel for them to give us a slimmer of false hope

Explain these revelations to us then.

These attacks from PA are just getting ridiculous. Her attack is based on an action that cannot be substantiated either way, so she feels that she is able to get away with pushing it. I

know

that I had to be JK'd, because that's the most logical conclusion from my point of view, and I can even understand it, given the circumstances at the time. However, with the JK gone, I can't prove it, and PA is taking full advantage of that fact. She's pushing the JK as a protective role, when it is in fact a dual role that can also be used to block, which is what I believe KK's intention was. And given that it didn't effect ThAd directly, the JK would have arguably produced the same effect as a doc protect. This attack is nothing more than PA grasping at straws in Mylo in order to push a mislynch.

@Ffullisade: My question is that you said that I was blue scum because I was legitimately hunting for red scum, while at the same time stating that I should be hunting for red scum if I was town. What then is the difference? Obviously there is one if you are using the same action to say that I'm one over the other. How can you tell the difference between blue scum hunting for red over town hunting for red? Essentially, what is the basis for your case?

[Bulbazak]

I'm not even sure I know what's going on anymore...

Ffullisade, can you give me a rundown of why you think PA & AK are the red team?

[Bulbazak]

I'm acting different than DP which at the time I knew who was scum. Here I have not a clue who the scum are because I'm town.

I'll need more than DP to have a clue what you're talking about.

Ffery, I find it hard to believe you've forgotten Donner Party already.

I don't think Peregrine is town.

Ok, so you must think he's blue scum if you're going with uneven scumteams and a powerful red team. Is that the case, or are you just keeping your options open?

You basically caught CTD and convinced me you were right with a symmetry argument.

Excuse me? I caught CTD and had to convince Nacho to lynch his scummy butt.

Pedit: Reds have no reason to quickhammer when they will be shot by a remaining blue when they do so.

I thought you were going with uneven scumteams and red having a roleblocker. Wouldn't red just block the other team then?

Nacho's red roleblocker theory makes sense, and it could be balanced with two of the red scum in the neighborhoods and thus vulnerable to being outed/caught. It certainly explains why scum didn't block the vig kill when they thought it was going on CTD but did when it was clear that ThAd might shoot elsewhere the next night/shoot without discussing with with his neighbor.

It could be balanced by 2 red scum in the neighborhoods? I thought you were sheeping Nacho's theory that the red team was the more powerful team, with only 3 members, all PRs. How does putting 2 of the red in the neighborhoods balance things out, especially if you're pairing one of them (the roleblocker according to you) with the vig!? Seriously, this doesn't make sense at all! It's like you saw someone else put forward a theory that could possibly save your butt and make you look town, and you thought "Hey, I can get behind that. In fact, let me add to the insanity by spouting off nonsense.". It's like you want people to know you're scum.

Okay, I've actually been going back and forth with myself over whether I should continue reading through ISOs or whether I should just use the information that's been given in the thread recently. However, it just seems that scum are getting desperate and are shooting off their mouths, giving themselves away. In fact, so much has been said the past few days, that I have more than enough to go off of. Here's how it stands:

PV: Conf. Town. Any attempt to say otherwise is merely scum trying to set up lynches. It makes no sense whatsoever that he'd be scum, as his placement in the neighborhoods would give either team too much power. PA and Nacho have both tried casting suspicion on him today, and I think they revealed their hand because of it.

Ffullisade: Town due to PoE. I'm still nervous about her, especially after what Ffery did to me in Achievement Unlocked, but I can't see her being scum with Marangal. Also, her confusion and paranoia look real.

Marangal: Red scum. An ISO readthrough actually helped here. She's been buddying up to players since the beginning of the game, especially on the B&B/Ffullisade slot. In fact, that's the only reason why she had a Cephrir scumread: B&B had one. She puts both of her partners on her scumlist, yet when it comes time to push them and wagon them

she refuses to

! Seriously, there was a Seanald wagon on d3, and she refused to get on it. She's been like that on wagons since, she absolutely refuses to get on wagons, normally calling them wagons on town. In fact, she's acquiesced so much in this game, most notably with Nero. I mean, who says "Yes, everything he's saying about how scummy I am is right.". It's like she wants people to see how compliant she is and not vote her. That's been her play: To do everything she can not to get lynched. AtE? Check. Say you're being framed? Check. Ask to replace out out of frustration? Check and double check. Seriously, on that last one, it's like she said "They read me as town last time I tried this. Let's try it again." She's been flailing a lot the past few game days and has been throwing out unsubstantiated claims and "revelations", all while refusing to elaborate on them when asked. She's in pure survival mode, and doesn't care a bit about scumhunting. And for those who are saying that Mala and Mara would have to be playing the best scum game of their lives, Mala convinced me that she was town in Donner Party, when she was really mafia. I only was able to figure it out the final night via PoE.

Nacho: Red scum. If he hadn't have said anything, I might not have caught him, as his ISO still comes across as so town. But then he comes back from V/LA and the first thing he does is...role the dice to see who to vote in Lylo? Then he states that we have uneven scumteams of 4 blue and 3 red, and that red is the most powerful with all members being PRs. Okay...where did he get this from? Then he says that PV could still be scum, because giving one team access to a vig is not unbalanced at all. After all, you have to keep that PV option open. Then he says that Ninja + Roleblocker is not as powerful as Doctor + Tracker. Why not? One side has an investigative immune role and a blocking role, while the other has a protective role and an investigative role. Not to mention that the blocking role can interfere with the protective and the investigative role AND the NK. So why is that combination less powerful? Then he states that blue can just kill red tonight, when he has just gotten done saying that red has a roleblocker. How does that work? Couldn't the red just block the blue and control the tempo of the game? Why have you forgotten this? This should be a major consideration in your theory. You can't have "There is a very small, very powerful red team." and "Well, blue can just kill the red tonight if we miss." In a game this small, chances are that red will be able to successfully block the blue kill. Then he says that PA and I are scum, but are on opposite teams. But didn't you just say earlier that PV was scum? What happened to that? Again, you can't have it both ways. Seriously, this theory has enough holes in it for it to qualify as a Swiss dairy product. This theory only serves as a way to distract everybody from Nacho's team and allow them to walk away with the win.

PA: Blue scum. I'll have to admit, BS bussing Red Ryu was brilliant. It's too bad that PA dropped all that when she replaced in. BS's attack on Nacho also shows that they can't be on the same team. The attack is still as bad as I remember it when reading back over the ISO (Nacho is scum, because Bacde said he was bussing.), and the qualifying every single rebuttal by Nacho as a lie, even when it's obviously not, still pings like crazy. Again, that kind of argumentation, discrediting everything as a lie instead of addressing it, is a quick and dirty form of mudslinging whose only purpose is to quickly push a lynch without anyone noticing how bad the case is. And then we have PA's soft defense of Thez, which still holds up on a readthrough. She says that she couldn't believe that Thez would do something like that, based off of a recent game, but shouldn't she have considered that he was fakeclaiming

because

of that game? All that post of hers does is softly defend him and give him a possible out, while trying to shift attention back to Bacde. Then you have the way she's posted during this day phase. She comes in immediately and takes charge, as if to say "Hey, I'm active. I can't possibly be scum. Don't mind me. Give me towncred.". Then all of her pushes today have been less about making cases based on actions, but rather about "Well, there's a possibility that Bulb could have been protected rather than JK'd, so we should lynch because of it.". Again, if that was secondary evidence in a larger case, I wouldn't mind, but she's pushing the lynch based

only

on an unconfirmed night action. Then she sheeps Nacho's theory at a moment's notice. She doesn't question it. She blindly accepts it and tries to use it to open up the possibility of a PV lynch. She asked about why she would be pushing a mislynch, and that bothered me for awhile, because with everything going on, I was wondering if I had misread everything. But then I realized that it's not about whether it's a mislynch or not. Like Mara, PA is in pure survival mode, and she doesn't care who gets lynched, as long as it's not her.

Vote Nachomamma8

Nacho-scum today, and then whichever scum is left tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

If you don't think red has the roleblocker, you say blue has the roleblocker. Why wouldn't blue have blocked ThAd when he was saying he would shoot CTD?

Maybe you thought that ThAd wouldn't shoot CTD after everything that happened. Maybe you thought CTD would be protected, since I was pushing for that. How am I supposed to know? I'm more curious about why Rena was blocked, since that would suggest a ThAd kill, but yet ThAd was left alive.

Ok, so you must think he's blue scum if you're going with uneven scumteams and a powerful red team. Is that the case, or are you just keeping your options open?

Uneven scumteams, Peregrine is town.

So you changed your mind in less than a minute? If that is the case, why were you still pushing PV-scum while pushing uneven scumteams?

I thought you were going with uneven scumteams and red having a roleblocker. Wouldn't red just block the other team then?

If uneven scumteams, there would be one scum left for each side.

And? You're not answering my question.

But then he comes back from V/LA and the first thing he does is...role the dice to see who to vote in Lylo?

You keep saying it's LyLo. It never has been LyLo. Rolling the dice was mostly a joke.

Fine. It's Mylo. Same thing. If we mislynch today, we lose. Why would you randomly vote in that situation?

Then he says that Ninja + Roleblocker is not as powerful as Doctor + Tracker. Why not? One side has an investigative immune role and a blocking role, while the other has a protective role and an investigative role. Not to mention that the blocking role can interfere with the protective and the investigative role AND the NK. So why is that combination less powerful?

Why does that deduction make me scum?

Come on, Nacho. It's a pretty glaring hole in your theory. If I can think of it, surely it occurred to you when you came up with the idea. As I said, the uneven scum team idea is a way for you to distract the town from your team so that you can score the mislynch you need.

Then he states that blue can just kill red tonight, when he has just gotten done saying that red has a roleblocker. How does that work? Couldn't the red just block the blue and control the tempo of the game? Why have you forgotten this? This should be a major consideration in your theory. You can't have "There is a very small, very powerful red team." and "Well, blue can just kill the red tonight if we miss." In a game this small, chances are that red will be able to successfully block the blue kill.

All of this is invalid once you realize the difference between the two theories.

In a game this small, chances are that red will be able to successfully block the blue kill. Then he says that PA and I are scum, but are on opposite teams. But didn't you just say earlier that PV was scum? What happened to that? Again, you can't have it both ways. Seriously, this theory has enough holes in it for it to qualify as a Swiss dairy product. This theory only serves as a way to distract everybody from Nacho's team and allow them to walk away with the win.

See previous.

I don't know what you're getting at here. Please explain, because it seems to me like you are avoiding the issue.

I also like how you immediately jumped on me due to this misunderstanding instead of questioning a bit in order to understand better.

That's what I started to do, but while putting together the post, everything just kinda clicked for me. It made no sense that you'd be pushing this case as town. Therefore, I added the breakdown and reads at the end.

I think he's bussing Nacho, explains why he's voting him over me when he apparently has a stronger read on me

I actually saw your vote while previewing my post. What do I care if you're choosing to bus your buddy? I actually don't care which of you we lynch today. You're both red scum.

I think bulba's a role blocker. I think PA knows it. because of her team - maybe her - getting blocked last night.

Where nacho fits in is less clear to me. But if I'm right about bulba role blocking and Nacho is right about 1 red scum, assuming we mislynch town today, then one townie will die tonight and tomorrow will be 2-1-1. And the game is unwinnable for town even if we lynch scum tomorrow.

If there are 2 reds, then it's possible that it will be a scum who dies tonight and then it will still be 2-1-1 tomorrow and unwinnable unless they shoot each other tonight. And if there is a roleblock two shots won't happen.

If we have 1 red, then Nacho probably isn't it.

I feel like we have to lynch between bulba and PA today and hope for the best.

PA's vote on bulba supports this scenario, I think.

Um...what? I think I got lost somewhere in the middle. Can you break this down for me in simpler terms?

[Bulbazak]

So you changed your mind in less than a minute? If that is the case, why were you still pushing PV-scum while pushing uneven scumteams?

If there are three scum, Peregrine is scum. If there are two scum, Peregrine is town.
Where did I change my mind? Nowhere.

I don't think Peregrine is town.

One minute later:

Or I think there's uneven scumteams.

Also, you didn't answer my second question.

If there are three scum, then red does not have the roleblocker. If there are two scum, red can't quickhammer with two people because they only have one.

My point is that you were addressing everything from the mindset of there are only 2 scum left. Why would you then switch it up and address a point as 3 scum left?

Randomly vote between two people

that I have strong suspicions of

, but you tried conveniently ignoring that. What's wrong with that, again?

See, again, this does not track. You say that you have strong suspicions of me and PA, then you say PV is scum, then you say that there are uneven teams (meaning all 3 suspects can't be true), then you say PV can still be scum with uneven scumteams, then you say that PA and I are scum and on opposite teams, then you say that PV can't be scum due to uneven scumteams (after having been called out on it). There is no logical progression.

I also know there won't be a quickhammer because there isn't an instant win in the case of a quickhammer.

True, there's always the possibility of cross killing. But again, your insistence that you were referring to an even team scenario doesn't track, since you were focusing on an uneven team scenario at the time.

Doctor + Tracker has good synergy because it helps find PRs to kill, and it's also a natural defense against the PR AND the other scumteam based on the ways they are shooting. Ninja+Roleblocker has shit synergy because ninja can't do anything except defend against Tracker/Watcher (booo), and Roleblocker allows you to fuck up power roles, yes, but you also have to find those power roles and you don't know whether you're actually doing anything or not unless the person is already claimed and you're framing them, but framejobs sort of suck when the other scumteam is just gonna shoot the guy.

You can aim a Roleblocker in the same manner that you can aim a Tracker. After all, it's not like a Tracker knows who to automatically follow to find a PR. They normally have a reason they are following that person. Same thing with Roleblocker, except that role could also be used as an impromptu protective role later in the game. I'm not seeing how the 2 combinations are incompatible.

Um...what? I think I got lost somewhere in the middle. Can you break this down for me in simpler terms?

You see you are missing something here. But instead of "something clicking", you question it.
Why? Because you aren't trying to lynch ffery?

I started reading that post and got turned around and confused somewhere in the middle. I just want some clarification on what she's saying.

[Bulbazak]

Where did the post stop making sense?

I think I got lost somewhere around the second paragraph. Can you rephrase your post?

One minute later:

I think Peregrine is scum

OR

there are uneven scumteams.
OR means that the events are not mutually exclusive.

So you do agree that you were keeping PV open as a possible lynch? Cool.

[Bulbazak]

So you do agree that you were keeping PV open as a possible lynch?

Yes, if there weren't uneven scumteams.

One minute later:

I think Peregrine is scum

OR

there are uneven scumteams.
OR means that the events are not mutually exclusive.

Peregrine would be not-town if there aren't uneven scumteams

the events are not mutually exclusive.

Yes, if there weren't uneven scumteams.

not mutually exclusive

Can we just lynch this scumbag now?

[Bulbazak]

are mutually exclusive, bulbazak

That's not what you said, and it DEFINITELY was not what you were implying.

[Bulbazak]

we never unvoted?

and I think Nacho is red scum with bulb, or did

I think he's bussing Nacho, explains why he's voting him over me when he apparently has a stronger read on me

What do you think of the uneven scumteams theory?

Plausible I guess, but Paranoia say it you using this theory to hide the fact that you "scum-slipped" earlier when you speculated scum-teams numbers though...

Quote please, because I don't remember this.

Bulb, if you don't care who gets lynched then why won't you attack me? our slot has been far more easier to push a wagon on, there is alot less resistance on the push for our wagon compared to Nacho wagon, and overall the performance of our slot, and my own personal performance hasn't been the best. There are alot of things that are easier to push us on compared to nacho

I think both you and Nacho are red scum, which means I don't care which of you 2 are lynched today, as long as one of you are. When I was finishing my reads, I noticed that you had placed a vote on Nacho, so I voted there as well. Otherwise, I would have been conferring with Ffullisade and PV, my 2 townreads, on which of you 2 we should be voting. Since then, though, Nacho has tipped his hand quite a bit, so I'd really like for him to eat rope.

Also, what's with this "our slot has been easier to lynch" crap? This is not the first time you've said something like that to me. It's like you're trying to paint my suspicion of your slot as opportunism.

furthermore on your little paragraph about me, alot of those posts are still not my actions, but the Mala's (except maybe for the replace out I guess?) and I don't think that my level of AtE wasn't that high, or out of bounds this game, but even if it was it isn't scummy, and even if I was spewing AtE like there was no tomorrow, why are you using it as a means to scum-read me? You've seen me get overly emotional as town, You've seen me get accused of AtE as town, hell you've seen me give up because my reads weren't as good as I had wanted them to be even though we were ahead. You've seen how irrational I get emotion wise so why are you even trying to push that angle?

Again, I don't really care which of you said what in the long run, as it's still the same slot. I've played with you once before, and to be honest, your play that game really didn't stand out. If you did any sort of AtE, it wasn't memorable, whereas here, you've been AtEing all over the place, and I really don't think it's the town kind either.

as for the buddying, You've also seen me hard defend people I have as town regardless of how much backing I have to those reads. You've seen me hard defend my town reads, that is what I have been doing this game

I don't recall you saying "I don't like any of the lynches today, not even the one on that person I've stated is scum throughout the game.".

Sweetie, Have you seen how I have treated my partners as scum? yes, I have buddied my partners as scum before, I have hard-core defended them, but it hasn't happened often and if I am going to decide to even do that, I will have them move to a town-read before hand. There is a reason to why my scum-buddies aren't found via association to me, but rather associations of my other partners should there ever be other flips. It's because I do extremely well at masking associative, as well as making fake ones that it's hard to even use that angle against me. If I was going to hard defend seanald, I wouldn't have soft-bussed him before that

Yeah, this is crap. You made a boo boo and got caught. Deal with it.

are mutually exclusive, bulbazak

That's not what you said, and it DEFINITELY was not what you were implying.

Really?

Yes, really.

One of PA/Bulba is blue. And Peregine is town.

I don't think Peregrine is town.

Or I think there's uneven scumteams.

in fact i really think there are uneven scumteams.

Peregrine is scum, or there are uneven scumteams. I REALLY think there are uneven scumteams.

"Also, look at how indecisive I'm being. It's like I'm making things up spur of the moment, even though I've stated I've had time to think about this. I mean surely I would have brought this up the first time and not tried to keep the PV option open and then suddenly changed my mind."

Peregrine would be not-town if there aren't uneven scumteams simply because Mara's became strong town for the last bit and mollie has been consistently town the entire game.

If there are uneven scumteams (two scum left), Peregrine is town. If there aren't uneven scumteams (three scum left), Peregrine is scum.

I'm sorry. It's just that the double negative confused me and made me think you were keeping PV-scum open as a possibility. I mean, it's not like there was a simpler way of saying it, instead of delving into double talk.

You see, I don't think you made a mistake. I don't think "not mutually exclusive" was a simple typo. I think it was just another form of double talk, like the double negatives, whose only purpose was to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town unconscious. I mean, you could have said "If even scumteams, PV is scum. If uneven scumteams, PV is town." to Ffullisade's question, and it would have answered their question and have been straightforward, and no one would have been able to doubt your meaning. Instead, you say "Peregrine would be not-town if there aren't uneven scumteams". Sure, that means "PV is scum if even scumteams.", but you have to read really hard to get that. Instead, what you unconsciously get is "PV is scum.". It leaves that opportunity open, while you can later say "I did not say that!".

And here's another thing, even then, this whole "PV scum if..." theory does not work. There's no way PV would be scum with even scumteams BECAUSE that would be saying that the scumteams, although even, ARE NOT symmetrical, which is the entire concept that allowed us to catch CTD in the first place. In fact, the only way PV COULD be scum was IF the scumteams were NOT even, but even then you run into problems, as you then have to explain why giving blue an extra neighborhood and a vig with their ninja balances out a team full of PRs. Regardless, I think it's pretty clear that PV is NOT scum, and I find the very process of trying to keep him open as a suspect very scummy.

Looking over VCs, Nacho has to be frustrated Red scum. And right now thinking rolecop, since his CTD read went from town to "stale" to surprise massive scum-case.

There is no way there are 2 copies of any PR in this game. Again, symmetry and balance.

[Bulbazak]

I think it was just another form of double talk, like the double negatives, whose only purpose was to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town unconscious.

so you think i used "not-town" instead of "scum" in order to keep the possibility of PV-scum open in the town conscious?
what the fuck does this even mean?

You created a sentence that relied on double negatives. You purposely obfuscated what you said so that the literal meaning was one thing, while the subliminal meaning, the one that the brain got when not reading closely, was another. If someone, like myself, said that you were keeping your options open, you could point at the sentence and say, "No, I'm not. Read closely.", after which, it would take several minutes of close reading for their brain to make sense of that sentence. If you meant to say that PV was scum only in the event of even scumteams, you could have said that directly, but you chose not to, choosing instead to say it in a way that obscured your actual meaning. Town has no need of that sort of double talk. Scum do.

ARE NOT symmetrical, which is the entire concept that allowed us to catch CTD in the first place.

We also could have gotten completely lucky, believe it or not.

Yeah, you're definitely scum. There's no way you're that stupid.

Ffery, Nacho has essentially claimed scum, and you're ignoring it! You say that you think he's probably scum, but I'm not seeing that reflected in anything you do. You're just giving lip service to it, while trying to figure out how to not vote him and call him town. Where's that paranoia that you like to talk about? Your subtext hints that you're nervous about PV, who is conf. town, but yet you are also subtly moving Nacho into the town pile for no reason at all (Because he read your mind and it might be uneven scumteams? Seriously?! I could have come up with that as scum.). What gives?

No, I was challenging you to vote me. Nacho had accumulated one vote, I accumulated two at the point you decided to vote Nacho. My wagon was far more likely to go through in comparison's to Nacho yet you vote me over Nacho

At the time I voted for Nacho, there were no votes on you. Everybody that had been on your wagon unvoted. Trust me, if your wagon would have had more momentum at the time, I would have voted you.

how am I painting your suspicions on me as opportunism when I am challenging you to wagon me, and when I am "scum". It's only opportunistic if I am town so, in your mind, that thought shouldn't even be a thing

No, scum can claim that a vote is opportunistic as well. In fact, it's a good way to push a mislynch. My problem with your posts are that they are a form of entrapment. You keep saying, "Oh, I'm so scummy. I'm a better lynch. Why aren't you voting me.", waiting for me to take advantage of your baiting. If I don't, then you call me scum for some bull crap reasoning that doesn't make sense, and if I do, then you call me scum for being opportunistic. It's a loaded question/situation. And after I call you out on it, what do you do? Oh, that's right, you call me scum, try to push my lynch on bull crap reasoning, and vote me. Right on schedule.

and yes, it does matter. If you are going to call me, the person, out for AtE you better back that up with actual post that were made by me. we are one slot, but you continue to say I am doing actions I didn't do.

Yeah, this attack is idiotic as well, and it ties back into the previous point. In the end, I don't care which head of the hydra said what. You are the same slot, and your actions as a whole have led to my scumread on you. Neither you or Mala were people that I could expertly read enough to tell you apart, so in the end, I just didn't care. And as for AtE, you're doing it right now.

and I didn't say "I don't like any of the lynches today" today, but that isn't what that post is saying. What it is saying I have defended people hardcore through the game, not just this day phase, this game

You started being noncommital on lynches d3 (including the lynch on one of your own "scumreads"), and you stayed that way until yesterday. The whole attack on using the word "today" in such a sense is beyond bad.

and for the last part, it isn't. You're calling me out as scum mostly for associatives, and quite frankly shitty ones at that. I'm pretty offended by the fact that any one could think that I could be so easily caught by something like that Especially with the thing I am most proud of doing as scum is being able to make false-associatives as scum, and making non-associatives with my buddies.

Hey, we all have bad games. The only reason we caught CTD was because of game spec

that he suggested

. I think you made some boo boos and got caught. You saying otherwise is WIFOM.

If it's not a four-man red scum team with three PRs (namely with a roleblocker plus flipped PRs) then PV's clear.

How did you get a 4 man red team with 3 PRs? Heck, how did you get red having a roleblocker in an even scumteam situation?

[Bulbazak]

Request prod of PeregrineV.

[Bulbazak]

And as for AtE, you're doing it right now.

ok, how?

The whole attack about me not being able to tell you apart is along the same lines as you shouting "I'm being framed!". The argument relies less on actual content and more on emotion, in this case, frustration.

[Bulbazak]

The claimed events from ThAd and Rena indicate to me that there is a scum roleblocker who cannot be blue, so he must be red.

What are you talking about?

The chain of logic starts from figuring that the roleblocker has to be red, then considering team composition rather than considering team composition and then trying to place the roleblocker, if I'm explaining that coherently.

Except you just leapt to "roleblocker must be red" with no logic whatsoever and then filled everything in with gobbledy gook. You haven't addressed my previous question. Why did you jump straight to red must have 3 PRs?

So my theories from likeliest to least are three red scum--all PRs--one neighbor, four red scum--three PRs--two neighbors, four red scum--three PRs--one neighbor--blue scum has Ninja + kickass PR.

Again, you have red scum as always having 3 PRs when we don't have the data to back that up. How did you reach this conclusion? It seems like quite a reach.

Ffullisade, you are not addressing any of my posts to you. I'd like you to rectify that please.

P-edit: And that tells you what?

[Bulbazak]

This is in my ISO. But again, ThAd-Vig says he's shooting blue CTD. He instead uses a shot that is absorbed by protection on you. That same night, Rena says she is blocked. WHY would blue scum risk losing half their remaining team to ThAd's shot if they could prevent it? Why not block him and NK Rena if they thought she might witness the block?

Then, when ThAd's claimed actions the next day indicate he might shoot unpredictably, then he's blocked. So:

--A blue RB would have blocked him the third (first) night
--A town RB wouldn't have blocked him at all, or blocked Rena
--A red roleblocker...yeah, it fits. Even if we pretend you're not red, it's obvious that the roleblocker was happy to let the vig shoot when they thought he was pledged to hit someone the knew about and wasn't them, not so much when they couldn't predict his shot.

I've laid this out more than once now. Please don't pretend like I'm taking flights of fancy here.

Yeah, I have a response to this spec in my ISO too:

Maybe you thought that ThAd wouldn't shoot CTD after everything that happened. Maybe you thought CTD would be protected, since I was pushing for that. How am I supposed to know? I'm more curious about why Rena was blocked, since that would suggest a ThAd kill, but yet ThAd was left alive.

Again, it's WIFOM, just like your other points. Balance-wise it doesn't make sense for red team to have 3PRs, and strong ones at that, while the blue team only has 2.

Ffullisade, you are not addressing any of my posts to you. I'd like you to rectify that please.

I've intentionally not followed up on one post addressed to me. I don't recall anything else you posted to me recently.

Which post are you intentionally not following up? The ones I'd like you to answer or address are these:

I think bulba's a role blocker. I think PA knows it. because of her team - maybe her - getting blocked last night.

Where nacho fits in is less clear to me. But if I'm right about bulba role blocking and Nacho is right about 1 red scum, assuming we mislynch town today, then one townie will die tonight and tomorrow will be 2-1-1. And the game is unwinnable for town even if we lynch scum tomorrow.

If there are 2 reds, then it's possible that it will be a scum who dies tonight and then it will still be 2-1-1 tomorrow and unwinnable unless they shoot each other tonight. And if there is a roleblock two shots won't happen.

If we have 1 red, then Nacho probably isn't it.

I feel like we have to lynch between bulba and PA today and hope for the best.

PA's vote on bulba supports this scenario, I think.

Um...what? I think I got lost somewhere in the middle. Can you break this down for me in simpler terms?

Where did the post stop making sense?

I think I got lost somewhere around the second paragraph. Can you rephrase your post?

Did you ever follow up on this:

I'll post what we're thinking tomorrow.

I remember waiting for your post and nothing coming. Was it just a simple "X is red and Y is blue", because I was expecting something bigger? Regardless, we're getting close to deadline and we really need to get this right and lynch red today, so I'd like to know your thoughts. You know mine.

[Bulbazak]

Did you ever follow up on this:

I'll post what we're thinking tomorrow.

Did I? Seriously?

My next post was a complete shake-up of my stance on the game state, and everything I've posted since then has been informed by that shake up.

I remember waiting for your post and nothing coming. Was it just a simple "X is red and Y is blue", because I was expecting something bigger? Regardless, we're getting close to deadline and we really need to get this right and lynch red today, so I'd like to know your thoughts. You know mine.

I'm speechless.

I guess I was expecting something a little bit more in-depth thought-wise. I was expecting you to give a breakdown of what your thought process was, why you had X or Y as scum, etc., all of which would be helpful since we are in Mylo. And yes, I'll continue to believe that we ARE in Mylo without any evidence to the contrary. That's why I believe it's very important to lynch red scum, because I'd rather not rely on crosskills to do that for us. As of right now, I still don't quite understand your reasoning behind your reads, except that Nacho is town because he's thinking what you are which is A.) Not a town tell (especially not in Mylo/Lylo) and B.) easily faked if said player has any experience (As I said, I could have faked that, and Nacho is better than I am.). You can roll your eyes or do what you want to, but this is not the time to be opaque. Now I've shared my thoughts and reads on the game state and have actually stated reasons for them, and, surprise surprise, all of the scum are on my wagon. We have less then 24 hrs. to lynch red, and I would like you to at least try to help us find and lynch red scum today. If you can't do that, then you can always hammer me and hope for the cross kills.

I'd like to know your thoughts. You know mine.

bulba i can't believe i ever saved you

But wasn't this the entire point? To save me for the final mislynch?

[Bulbazak]

Or it was a choice between Slandaar and myself, and you chose to lynch Slandaar so you wouldn't have to face him later in the game.

[Bulbazak]

Also, let me remind you that you did not immediately bus Seanald. You pushed Rena as hard as you could and only voted Seanald after the Rena wagon lost traction and the Seanald lynch was inevitable.

[Bulbazak]

Convincing of what?

[Bulbazak]

Why am I supposed to convince you? You're scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to hear from Ffullisade before I go to bed within the next few hours. There's no guarantee that I'll be around before deadline, and I want to talk things out. I also wouldn't mind talking to PV as well. We really need to discuss what we're going to do, because red team essentially has this day in a stranglehold.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak and PV, if Nacho is red scum, what's his motive for floating a theory and apparently standing behind it that red scum is a three-man team and so is down to one member? He's not using it as an excuse to hunt blue scum instead of red from what I can tell.

The motive would be for town to not believe they're in Mylo and thus become more lax in their decision making process. If successful, town's mindset would no longer be "We need to lynch red scum or we lose.", but would be "There's only 2 scum left and of different factions. It doesn't matter which one we hit, and if we mislynch, we still have another day." The difference is night and day. All Nacho has to do is get us to not lynch red scum, and his team essentially wins.

P-edit: Mara's not going to unvote. She's Nacho's partner. We need to convince PA to vote Nacho if we want any shot of winning.

[Bulbazak]

I was hoping to stay up a little longer, but my body is disagreeing with me. I hope to be able to get back on before deadline, but if not, I've really said all I can.

[Bulbazak]

or, we can flashwagon penguin.

Why would we flash wagon Penguin? She's blue scum, not red. This is just desperate scum flailing, isn't it?

Penguin, why are you lynching me when Bulbazak is going to block and kill you during the night?

Yep, definitely desperate scum flailing.

Bulb is red. Penguin is blue. Why the fuck do you think penguin voted me 2 hours before deadline after she just got done calling me town?

What does blue scum changing their vote to you have to do with you being town? If anything, it shows that Penguin-scum actually thinks you're red scum and that lynching you will make her wincon easier.

You don't construct baselines from what you learn about players when you're scum?

Not nearly as effectively. Especially in a game where I'm letting town wreck themselves and have no real need to care about what's going on.

Actually, I learn a lot about how somebody plays by actually being scum with them. For example, I was scum with GiF in A New Matrix, and I actually learned what GiF looks like as scum, and by extension, what he looks like as town. It's useful, because I can then use that knowledge to identify his alignment in other games. As town, you should have been able to identify characteristics of Cephrir's scum game based on your experience with him as scum. Why didn't you?

Vote bulba

It's going to take more than Penguin's gut to make sense of such a late switch on such flimsy reasoning.

So your reason for voting me is because Penguin-scum unvoted me, even though she has just as much of a reason to find and vote red scum as we do? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[Bulbazak]

Cases/reasons would be nice. After all, this might be your last opportunity for them. Deadline is in one and a half hours.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, why do you think penguin changed her vote?

If anything, it shows that Penguin-scum actually thinks you're red scum and that lynching you will make her wincon easier.

It's not even that far above your question.

[Bulbazak]

If she thought that I was red scum, I don't think that she'd be calling me town all day. Unless you think that the last minute switch is genuine?

I think she was just trying to survive all day and get anybody who wasn't her lynched. She probably then realized that lynching red scum was in her best interest, and so she actually started paying attention and voted you.

And no, it's way too late for cases. This is a tone thing now. And your tone, bulba, has a note of triumph to it. If you were town, it wouldn't be there.

A tone of triumph? You're going to have to explain that to me. I'm concerned that the day won't end with a red scum lynch and that will lead to us losing, which is why I'm pushing as hard as I am. On the flipside, I'm also very tired and want this game to end. I would just prefer that end be a town win, which is why I'm not surrendering. I have nothing to be triumphant about.

[Bulbazak]

I think she was just trying to survive all day and get anybody who wasn't her lynched. She probably then realized that lynching red scum was in her best interest, and so she actually started paying attention and voted you.

that's why she brought up a whole bunch of reasons for you being scum and none for me being scum?
interesting.

She brought up nothing about my play, only coincidences and WIFOM. If she truly thought I was scum, she would have been diving into my gameplay as well. She just grabbed what was convenient and what looked incriminating and just used that to get the easiest target lynched, i.e. she was in survival mode.

P-edit: Because if you get lynched, you lose. Wanting to survive in that situation as scum is nothing new.

[Bulbazak]

Ffullisade, vote Nacho or else the game is over.

Penguin, vote Nacho and then you have the opportunity to kill the other red.

[Bulbazak]

Because I'm town and Nacho is red scum. If I'm lynched, you'll have to rely on cross kills to have a chance at winning.

[Bulbazak]

Red QT

And bulba.. I ll smack you for killling me so early..

Actually, my original plan was to kill ThAd. Thus the block on Rena. However, no one else would listen to me, so I suggested you, since you were a wild card that I could not trust in Lylo.

[Bulbazak]

For those who were in NY 165, I'm finally able to reveal something. Head on over to that post game to find out.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba just so happened to have strong feelings on the matter (which dictated what he perceived to be the "town-him" reaction)

I really dislike mass claims. Just so you know.

[Bulbazak]

bulbazak is so town that everytime someone votes him mastin coughs blood

This is my favorite post of the game. Just saying. It's going in my signature.

Also, tell me the truth Nacho. Did I bruise your ego that badly? Because your suspicion of me definitely seemed to spike drastically in other games after my flip here.

[Bulbazak]

Possibly. It could have also muddied the waters, and it would have definitely helped us aim. I continue to stress that it's generally a bad idea, especially that early.