NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Desperado]

Looks to me like caught scum who doesn't know what to say

So you think Sean is scum but you join his counterwagon? Gotta love that chain lynching.

Did you even read the question that penguin asked me?

[Desperado]

Desp. Slandaaar had given several scum-reads for no reason, so has Nero, and Thad has some really strange scum reads and last I recall, Thad hasn't even voted for a single scum read

I don't understand why this is addressed to me. Can you fill me in?

and yes, she isn't allowed to take our vote off Khan. I'm not fond of any of the leading wagons so far, and the other wagons that I might consider joining aren't yet formed so our vote there wouldn't mean shit.

Yeah your vote is just

full of meaning

all by itself on Khan.

as for the policy lynching Seanald for Info, I don't agree with her on that respect. I don't want to push a wagon on the sole purpose of policy when I have something much better right here in front of me regardless of the information that we may or may not gain from it.

This is a complete misread of the situation. So not only is Mala misunderstanding my point, but you're now misunderstanding Mala's misunderstanding.

Hydras fucking suck.

[Desperado]

Looks to me like caught scum who doesn't know what to say

So you think Sean is scum but you join his counterwagon? Gotta love that chain lynching.

Did you even read the question that penguin asked me?

I did, which has shit all to do with voting a counter wagon.

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

Putting aside the single mindedness here, are you saying there's no way you are both scum?

[Desperado]

If its town why is it lying and putting words into my mouth? IDK, I'm waffling hard but there's other scum to take care of like Bulb and Bacde and maybe Cephir and Despo.

"It" has a name. You never dehumanized anyone in WWE even though they were being far, far stupider.

What's up with that?

[Desperado]

holy loaded question batman. How on earth would I know his alignment?

The slot is an it.

The slot doesn't type up words that you read, so when you say something like "why is it lying and putting words in my mouth" it's creepy and disrespectful.

[Desperado]

Whiteknight Nacho more, scum.

So Nacho is officially town for you now?

[Desperado]

^ don't worry sweets, Despo is a retard!!!!

Why are you telling her not to worry when I wasn't even talking to her when I said that?

And why am I retard?

[Desperado]

He already said because those are the 5 that are still alive and were on the Ryu wagon early.

Peregrine, I still don't understand how ActionDan and DLG had such a conversation pre-game that was so convincing that Thad is now so town that you're coloring him in as Green. He's the only person (other than yourself) who isn't dead to get that distinction.

Can you talk about this some more?

<<< Double-post deleted. It seems I'm dealing with these once or twice a page, now. :/ >>>

[Desperado]

Looks to me like caught scum who doesn't know what to say

So you think Sean is scum but you join his counterwagon? Gotta love that chain lynching.

You are complaining about nacho misrepping you, but I think you are doing the same to desperado here. He had moved off the sean wagon well before he voted you, saying that he was unsure about it since none of his townreads had gotten on (4106). He then voted and unvoted ak before voting you later.

In fact desp has actually been looking good to me lately, I might have been wrong about him.

If it was, it wasn't intentional however, I do not believe this is a misrepresentation at all. I don't understand his point. It sounded to me like he believed that Sean ACTIONS were scummy, so if that's what he believes then why does he care if his town reads are not on said wagon. He could be wrong about those reads, those town reads could be wrong about Sean. I don't see how he gets "oh noes!!! town reads ain't joining the wagon so Sean might not be scum." I guess Desp needs to explain this to me kiddie style.

I thought desp looked good in the early game but lately he kinda stinks.

You don't understand how I might be wary of a wagon that I started and got to L-2 without my five strongest townreads?

That wouldn't give you pause? What do you think I meant when I said that "I'm not sure what this means yet?" Your mini diatribe here seems to imply that I just got scared that Nacho and Mollie didn't vote with me and that I'm just cowering on to a different wagon when my behavior tells a very different story.

[Desperado]

no, not really. Which is why I asked you to explain it but instead you are defensive. Why?

Unless you specifically think that there are certain players on the wagon that are scum then I don't think it matters that your town reads aren't voting with you.

But I am correct in that you think Sean is scummy?

What about that was defensive? I did explain it. In real time, as it was happening. And then I quoted the same posts again later.

And yet here you are, asking me to explain it again and then trying to get one over on me because I was "defensive" instead of answering your question (that had already been answered).

Yes I find Seanald scummy.

[Desperado]

oh god triple post my computer is so bad sorry mastin

Triple Post Deleted -AP

[Desperado]

Peregrine, I still don't understand how ActionDan and DLG had such a conversation pre-game that was so convincing that Thad is now so town that you're coloring him in as Green. He's the only person (other than yourself) who isn't dead to get that distinction.

Can you talk about this some more?

Sure.

In the QT, after ActionDan determined DLG was town, ActionDan claimed the vig. Scum-AD would obviously be found out when his kill failed to go through. But, for whatever reason (activity most likely), AD never shot.

Good and well. I would have recommended a target but I didn't feel comfortable enough with the game having just replaced in, so just used it for game notes.

ThAd replaced in and revealed previously hidden information that scum would have no reason to do. Plus, he still has the vig shot that confirms he's the vig. So, taken all together, even though I'm not very good at mafia, I concluded that ThAd is very likely town, almost to the 99% chance.

I don't understand your first two paragraphs. AD never shot because he got replaced by Hanzo D1, who later got replaced by Thad D1. Thad is the only person in the slot who has had an opportunity to use a vig shot, and according to him, he hasn't shot both nights. Even though both of you had replaced in on D1 and had a full day of game presence for N2.

So I get that he didn't shoot N1, whatever. But why not N2?

What information did he reveal that was previously hidden?

[Desperado]

UNVOTE: nero

he is painfully reminding me of the gears game where he was mislynched by town.

@ cephrir

okay fair enough. thad isn't retarded though. I don't think (hope) that he would just shoot willy nilly without thought or taking direction from his town reads. he knows he will be lynched otherwise so yeah he is trolling but if it bothers you just ignore it. personally I don't think he is but then I have a very high tolerance for trolling, being a massive one myself.

Is it something about the way he's reacted to the wagon? Because I just got done playing with townNero in WWE and this looks totally different, but he was also a universal townread for a majority of the game so that kind of colors the meta.

I do like his interactions with Bulb though, and have followed his line of logic consistently going back to when it started. Bulb tried to go after me for "deflecting" in the same manner as Nero "deflected" when Nacho and I were going at it, and it was bullshit then just as it is now.

[Desperado]

What parts of bulb are you looking at to inform your read of him? I don't even know what I should be looking at when I read his posts

its like, I disagree with everything he's saying but he really looks like he believes it

It's easy to believe in something when 90% of what you say comes from a book.

[Desperado]

Despo, are you voting me 'cause you think that I'm playing different then WWE + you agree with the Nacho case?

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

More the latter than the former, because I really don't think the WWE game is a good indicator of your townplay...you were basically universally town by what, halfway through D1? and it never changed. I've never seen what you look like as town when you aren't comfortable with your state in the game, which would justify some of the things I found scummy about your reaction to the Nacho case.

fery, I have to see this game where Bulb dominated as SK. Link/name please?

[Desperado]

Bulb looks like a completely different player in this game. Do you agree?

[Desperado]

He also relied a lot less on his book of fallacies...played more loosely, more emotionally.

Bulb: can you link us to a town and scum game you think are representative?

[Desperado]

If you are asking me if I'm reading him as scum in this game, the answer is no, though I'll feel pretty cautious about him in any game until I have a baseline on his town game.

- f

The implication was the opposite actually, but I agree that his playing differently as an SK isn't necessarily indicative of him being town.

[Desperado]

.........................................................................................

WORST TOWN EVER!!!!

I'm being voted for a bunch of fucking nothingness. Jesus Christ.

Nero Cain - 5 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie,

Desperado, Bacde, Ffullisade

)

at least one of these are scum.

When I flip town you guys should lynch the shit out the middle of my wagon.

I know it looks OMGUSy but in that WWE game I was town reading the shit out of Despo but he's actually playing pretty pro-town this game, so idk, maybe he is scum. Nevertheless, both his and Ffulls votes were extremely opportunistic.

Which I did mention at the time, here:

Since when is 3-5 on a 10 person wagon "the middle?"

And that is like, the newbiest reaction.

I expected something ...better than insulting the town and saying that the middle of your wagon has scum on it.

Upon which you stopped flailing like a wuss and actually started engaging your wagon, made some good points against Nacho and bulb, and now we're here, with "here" being the point where I'm deciding where to place my vote next.

[Desperado]

I reread my seanald case and it's really good.

Unvote
Vote: Seanald

I will absolutely not vote for Nacho, CTD, Arc, Khan, bacde, or ffullisade today.

I likely won't lynch Slandaar, HD, Nero, Rena, or penguin

I will consider lynching Peregrine, Cephrir, or Bulb

I will definitely lynch Seanald, Amethyst, or Thad

[Desperado]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=25658

here is a mafia Bulb game you guys can read. BBL

My god.

Bulb you better have a few town games where you play exactly like you're playing here because otherwise you need rope so bad it fucking hurts.

[Desperado]

Don't delete that one, it deserves two posts. This might as well be Newbie 1333 2: The Sequel.

<<< ...Oops. I, uh, missed this post, so I deleted the double. Apologies. >>>

[Desperado]

You're probably right sadly.

And then I flip town, and Bulbazak convinces themselves that I played scummy and it's not their fault, and they keep scumhunting in their flawed ways.

Sadness.jpg

He's in my head. No, seriously:

I bet you're wrong a lot, aren't you? Not everyone is an automaton...players are guaranteed to make mistakes as either alignment, get caught in your web of neverending quote boxes and buzzwords, and eventually just give up under the sheer weight of it all. But your conscience is clean because you went by the book.

After reading that game it's going to take something really, really drastic for me to ever read Bulb as town again.

[Desperado]

Despo, are you voting me 'cause you think that I'm playing different then WWE + you agree with the Nacho case?

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

More the latter than the former, because I really don't think the WWE game is a good indicator of your townplay...you were basically universally town by what, halfway through D1? and it never changed. I've never seen what you look like as town when you aren't comfortable with your state in the game, which would justify some of the things I found scummy about your reaction to the Nacho case.

fery, I have to see this game where Bulb dominated as SK. Link/name please?

then look at this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=26483

I watched in horror from the sidelines as he was lynched

Yeah Nero is town. And that was Arc's town game through and through, how did they not see that?

[Desperado]

so what in that game do you see different in this one?

Not sure what you're talking about. Clarify?

[Desperado]

Bottom of the last page

[Desperado]

HD, why are you not the least bit interested in lynching Nero-scum?

I'd ask you the same question about Seanald. The only time you've mentioned him has been to say that his wagon is a least common denominator lynch, which is frankly insulting to me.

I assume by "least common denominator" you mean it's the least controversial lynch, but I would argue that there's no backlash because the case is good and he's done nothing to defend himself from it (other than tell me that it's good and that he wishes we could use our QT to work together, which doesn't fly when a) we haven't been doing that to begin with and b) what he has said he would do in that QT, he has not followed through with).

My problem with your Nero case lately is that we

still don't even know it's multiball

. If it isn't, your entire case goes up in flames. I think my Seanald case is stronger than your Nero case, straight up.

[Desperado]

Desperado, you are spooking me a great fucking deal. It's like we've entered bizzarro land.

You vote Nero Cain, and all it takes for you to move on is him showing up to defend himself ("stop flailing like a wuss", as you so nicely put it). It's enough for you to move him into the "likely won't lynch" pile even. I'm beginning to question why you voted him in the first place, he certainly hasn't defended well against the most pressing issues at hand. And now you've started defending him with arguments that are just astonishingly bad to me:

1. This is a normal game. Giving the scum team a color distinction when there's not actually a second scum team to match it is tantamount to bastard moddery. It's at the very least mod trickery, which is already against the spirit of normal games, and I'd be severely pissed off with Mastin and whomever greenlit the game if that was the case. In addition, we have had two kills a night and a third killing party claimed in ThAd. There is every reason to assume this is a multiball game at this point.
2. Even if it wasn't a multiball game, it doesn't have

any

bearing on Nero Cain's scumminess. He said something that directly contradicts his claimed game theory stance, to defend a player of questionable alignment (AK, who you read as scum). He claimed having this game theory stance to defend a

very

questionable line of reasoning he used to help lynch OS-town. There is

not a single thing

about this whole story that adds up to Nero being town and it doesn't make a lick of difference whether he knew this was multiball, thought this was multiball or knew the opposite.

Not only did you do an almost complete U-turn on Nero, you also apparently threw the big issue you had with the Seanald wagon out the window.

The vast majority of your strong town reads still don't support a Seanald lynch,

while the vast majority of your other scum reads does or did at the height of the wagon. I reread your case against him, and it's still not as strong as you make it out to be. The totality of your valid points doesn't even come close to matching the one huge point against Nero in scumminess, and there are other strong points in favor of Nero scum in addition to that.

Seriously, get a grip.

I'm spooking you because we don't agree on one person?

I helped you and nacho push the nero wagon because the case was good and I was still trying to work him out, which I said here:

Hd and slandaar lean town, penguin leans scum, and I'm still working Nero out. Just finished a game with town Nero that was going concurrently so I will probably lean on that.

Then he started interacting with me and the rest of his wagon and towntold, so I unvoted him and went back to my Seanald case, which you still have not addressed (other than the final line of this post, which is unnecessarily vague).

@ bolded: this is just inaccurate. Fery said the case "was good on the face" but Seanald "might get mislynched a lot" so she'll have to do research; Nacho didn't address it at all until just now; Khan hasn't addressed the case either, only that he had reservations about the composition of the wagon, but he also scumread Seanald earlier in the game; and Arc is still on the wagon with me.

If it's not as strong as I'm making it out to be, tell me where it's weak, don't tell me to "get a grip."

[Desperado]

I'm not comfortable voting him today.

Who is this and why not?

[Desperado]

Based on capitalization I'm guessing fery...did you research Seanald like you said it would? Because your post gives the opposite impression.

[Desperado]

I've melted down? The fuck?

.........................................................................................

WORST TOWN EVER!!!!

I'm being voted for a bunch of fucking nothingness. Jesus Christ.

Nero Cain - 5 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie,

Desperado, Bacde, Ffullisade

)

at least one of these are scum.

When I flip town you guys should lynch the shit out the middle of my wagon.

[Desperado]

I didn't make any judgements on what you said. You acted as if you didn't melt down so I reminded you.

[Desperado]

I also need Mara and Despo to talk to me about PA's play in WWE. Is this different?

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

Good question, I'll get back to you

You sure you don't want to vote Seanald? I'm with you on Bulb but I seriously doubt you have enough support for it today

[Desperado]

PA is definitely playing different in this game. In WWE, PA never addressed someone individually unless it was to implicate them as scum.

In contrast, ISO her in this game and you see a lot of interactions initiated by her that never materialize into scum reads. Like this:

UNVOTE: Oversoul

I'm good waiting to see how his play develops.

Bacde and Red Ryu, what does each of you think is the single top piece of evidence that Nachomamma8 is scum?

Amethyst Kitty, do you think Desperado is scum after the last couple pages?

Did anyone get a message from Syryana confirming his alignment? If not then I'm guessing that Seanald-scum or someone in his mafia did.

My understanding of friendly neighbor is that Syryana would have sent out a message confirming self as town. So presumably that message would only go out to a town read of Syryana's. Why would scum want to keep quiet about effectively being a town read of Syryana's?

Cephir's pointing out the fuzzy-Haylen links with Red Ryu tracks to me. I'm good with pressure there.

VOTE: Haylen

CTD, given your presumed interactions with Slandaar, what's your take on his current back-and-forth with Thor665?

@penguin

I am sorry I forgot you were in that game too. that was one of points was the aggressive roleclaiming. a watcher claim can be pulled off we saw it gears when messiah claimed on d1. he claimed a one shot though. I agree we probably shouldn't lynch her today but I just want to go on record that I think she is scum. she is exhibiting classic scum behaviour and if I had the confidence I would push for her lynch but I don't, mostly cos I don't know her.

Eh, not a game I'd want to be remembered for. I mean, kudos to IaI and the scum team, but being duped by a fake cop twice and mislynched at Lylo, hardly a shining moment.

Meta knowledge aside, it seems possible that Rena (hope your brother's OK) showing classic scum behavior might be more a side effect of having a PR and the overlap that can happen there. And I can't find where Messiah claims he's only one-shot. That is a game where the opposing scum faction had a Ninja, like Red Ryu, so another point where Rena could be claiming with a scum PR.

Human Destroyer, why the vote with no comment on the role claim? Your ISO has you saying that fuzzy was useless and shouldn't make it to endgame, but you don't say anything about why Rena was a good lynch, particularly in light of being an un-CC'd PR.

I'm not getting the Nachomamma8 case, even with reading my predecessor's ISO. It seems to be based on the idea that Bacde and Nachomamma8 are bussing each other, but since there's no proof that either is scum, it reads like a circular argument.

Eh, I don't think I buy the vig claim, but I agree with those who say that if it's not dead or proven overnight we know where to lynch.

UNVOTE: ThAdmiral

ffullisade, do your points about the AK hydra members still apply when they're working together? Because while I have yet to play in a hydra, one of the advantages seems to be the ability to rein in each other's bad habits. You said mara was that way in a hydra, but mala wasn't in that hydra, right?

ArcAngel9, which poor reasonings?

ArcAngel9, what's your reason for having Seanald as your top scum read?

Desperado, given that Seanald hasn't responded to any of the people who think he's scum since he appealed to you, what's your take on him independent of his wagon composition?

None of these have reasonable analogues from WWE. She's been far more proactive this game, and she's making an effort to engage people she (presumably) trusts.

If I based my read solely on this I would have PA as town this game.

[Desperado]

Were you here for Thad claiming X-Shot Vig and the Neighborhoods (Seanald/Desperado, CTD/Slandaar, Thad/Peregrine)?

[Desperado]

Important things to read:

Spoiler: Desperado's Seanald Case

Rena - 6 (Nero Cain, Cephrir, ffullisade, Seanald, Desperado, Bacde)

Amethyst Kitty - 7 (Kublai Khan, Slandaar, Desperado, Cephrir, ArcAngel9, Seanald, ffullisade)

Nachomamma8 - 4 (Nero Cain, Bacde, PeregrineV, ThAdmiral)

Nero Cain - 3 (Nachomamma8, Bulbazak, CTD)

These are the Rena, AK, and Nacho wagons at their respective apexes. Nero's wagon has only gotten as high as 3, so I'm not really sure what you meant by that, but anyway...

Seanald is the only one that really sticks out. He joins the Rena wagon with a naked vote (while supporting a cephrir wagon as well), and then votes AK with the bad policy lynch logic that basically no one liked.

Diving further into Seanald's ISO, the only time he mentions Ryu (while he was still alive) is to defend him here:

Redryu in junction with being passive to the bulb/hd-OM argument

not sure I understand this question, wasn't everyone being passive because their arguement was annoying as hell and everyone just told them to shut up? or has this arguement been going on since pages 20-29 cuz I havn't read the 20's yet.

It's also interesting to note that, after Ryu and Syryana's flip, Seanald made it a big show of not being concerned with Ryu's killer (because it was turning into a speculative circle jerk) here:

Ok So there has been a lot of talk about Red Ryu and shit, and who his partner/partners is which I get, and the talk has mostly just been a bunch of bacde and bulba tripping over each other's penises as they run around a bush.

Before turning around in the same post and sheeping Syryana's reads (note how he forgets that Ryu was already dead, as well--he really wants you to know that he isn't concerned with Ryu's death) here:

so just based off of Syr's reads, Desp,Red, and AA9(based on his comment) are switched into the scum pile. and baby spice and bacde join the null to scum pile.
theres more to read based off of syrs reads switching but I honestly can't keep it all in my head.

Honestly Seanald's whole treatment of the N1 deaths is just terribly scummy. Relevant posts are #2894, 2896, and 2899.

---------

The only time he interacts with Mac (thezmon's slot) is here:

I want to hear from Nacho before I follow the tomatos, and damn your tomatoes look good man.

also, never seen you town post this hard mala, its like not even a question.

@Mac, I'd like to know what you think of this game so far, you've been skirting this shit too long, pipe up sonny.

Which reads like scum asking a teammate to stop lurking. Mac was eventually replaced by thezmon, and the only time seanald interacted with HIM is here:

In post 1674, Bacde wrote:I'm clawing for reasons to unvote you and vote for desperado you know

I'd so much prefer it for both of us to be town and I want to believe

but you aren't helping me here

you feel like scum to me love

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH.

WOAH.

What happened to you being super convinced that Nacho was scum? Like, seemingly 100% convinced? But at its height you decide you want to go another way?

He's getting a chubby for nacho is what is happening, ive been seeing it in his eyes, he keeps looking across the room staring at Nacho's ass.

Until he becomes the 2nd to last vote when thezmon was clearly dead and gone.

--------

In the other direction...

Mac never mentions seanald, although I thought this post was interesting:

VOTE: Red Ryu

directing night actions? really?

especially in conjunction with AK's multiple posts of basically the same sentiment without a vote attached. Really starting to believe in one scum team + SK.

Thezmon only mentions Seanald (Ryu was listed as town in the same post) here:

NULL:
[Seanald, Kublai Khan, Desperado, Syryana, Nachomomma8, Cephrir]

and in his final reads post in #3247, in which Seanald is also null.

And Ryu only interacts with Seanald briefly, in this series of posts:

Seanald for #1 vig pick.

I'll vig your prick, and im still catching up. I don't have alot of time due to work so im a little over half way through right now.

Someone ask me something to get my dick juices in the game.

Hi, you posted now.

What reads you have, even simple or leaning ones?

Any gut feels of reads or anything.

I feel an overwhelming compulsion to follow the flowchart.....

and I have a town read on crash Text Dummie for the way he explained and handled the massclaim thing in the beginning pages there.

Explain.

I had the opposite.

Seanald never explained, and Ryu never followed up on it. Blatantly manufactured interaction.

-----------

Seanald has interactions with both blue scum that implicate him as a teammate. He was the 2nd to last vote on thezmon (without interacting with the process of thez's lynch whatsoever), and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to "decipher" the Syryana kill while downplaying the interest in examining Ryu's interactions.

And I was particularly disappointed with his treatment of Rena today because he told me in the quicktopic that he was considering her as a blue scum partner, and that he would ISO her because it was mostly gut, without following through on that at all.

In conclusion:

Unvote
Vote: Seanald

Spoiler: This is why ArcAngel is town

I am not liking the quick OS wagon. Its bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as town, she white knights people who are having fast wagons on them, slows the game down because she knows what it's like to get attacked shittily

Huh!!!
Can you all stop posting the fluff for heaven sake.. It’s not even 24 hours since I was here and it is 20 pages already.. Go slow people… Catching up is always a night mare!!!

Anywayz, Overall.. OS wagon is the most dumbest shit than ever. Every lurker who has no content/case to make is jumping in OS wagon, OS may not be the scum, If there is something odd about him that it is his claim. I will have to ISO some of his games to understand better but for now, I have no interest in joining his wagon.

Looks like Beast (majiffy) abandoned the Beauty (mollie) in the hydra. Mollie’s arguments make sense, she is town. Om the Destroyer is also town. And the never ending triangle arguments between OM, B&B & ephir looks very town vs town or there could a scum in between them but its early to see because it seems all of them has their own cases argue...

when she gets left behind, she yells at people for posting too much

Both of you get a room!!!

teases people she likes

I am sorry about the inactivity, It’s just too many posts to catch up.. this is what happens when you fall behind in a large games. And having players like Jiffy, Nero, OS,& Bcade I couldn’t imagine any less than a massive amount post floods… Anywayz.. the catch up was really frustrating and such a butt hurt…..

this post is a REAL reads catchup post. AA can't do that as scum. not yet.

I am more likely not interested in lynching Nacho. At least not today please.. SO STOP THE NACHO WAGON. ITS BAD!!!

"he should be lynched when it's time to lynch him"
subtly paranoid, still doesn't want me gone before she knows wtf is going on

Then why are you voting Nacho, its not too late to build another wagon. Nacho case just doesn't make sense. I am not sure why nacho is not actually defending himself as much as I thought he would but this sounds little easy, like i said earlier, it would be a miracle if scum really had let town feed a scum on day 1 especially a player like Nacho.

she's picking up on me not defending myself as fiercely as I normally do
you think scumAA would pick up on this?
do you think scumAA EVEN as my buddy would pick up on this if I wasn't coaching her?

STILL NOT INTERESTED ON NACHO WAGON!!!!!!!!!!!

arc being loud and yelling to stop what she feels is probably a mislynch

You like me doing OMGUS right.. Here you get the 200%.... Die scum!!!

VOTE: Desperado

classic AA OMGUS

OMMFG, I can't stop laughing for this.
If you flip town Despo I ll jump from the top of mount everest!!!

strong promises for AAscum, no?

Firstly.. Try to be Civil. And Stop being a dick head!!!! this is a warning!!! Next time I may not be so nice!!!!

classic arctown

I swear this was at 1990 less than five minutes ago. >_<

We're playing with hidden features!

Go back to your hydra, lazy bum!!!!

more of that teasing of people she likes

And who are you calling Horribad?? Get a life you punk!!! Huh!!

syryana knows why i like this one
her "huh!!" posts are usually hilariously and awesomely town
this one is no exception

tl;dr When Arc is town, she OMGUSes hard because she's used to scum attacking her for so long. She will also pick out people who have been easy targets, people who she feels like she can defend, and she will defend them from a position of authority (since she knows certain people will read her as town and she can hammer the hell out of them if they attack her). She's lighter as town because it's what she excels at, hence the occasional teasing with the people she interacts with. Her stronger, more aggressive posts are the ones she makes from that position of authority; she doesn't have it as scum and that's her strongest meta point.

Spoiler: Nacho and CTD's Nero case

I see that you are putting your hand up to die tonight. Excellent.

I suggest you start working on your defense now if you want to go down this path, cause you'd be making a better argument for your lynch tomorrow than any I could make myself.

-------------

Not feeling the AK lynch. Some people have called their defense manipulative, but it sounds sincere enough to me. Most of the stuff they're accused of don't really register as scummy with me.

Doesn't look like there's enough support for a ThAd lynch, though there's plenty of people who seem to doubt the claim. I really have to question the wisdom in letting a claimed killing role live when you don't think they're town. Probability dictates that he's more likely to shoot town than scum, so essentially you're just postponing the issue while allowing town numbers to go down faster. At least he's motivated to try and shoot in town's favor regardless of his alignment, I will grant that.

-------------

Nero Cain has pinged me hard lately and I think there's some interest there, so let's try that.

unvote, vote: Nero Cain

So why was it not scummy on days 1 and 2? Why was my attack on Rena scummy but you didn't question any of the other players that followed me onto Rena?

It wasn't as scummy on Day 1 and Day 2 because I had other people in mind and I liked you from our exchange about mollie earlier. Now, I'm not so sure. I questioned you because I found your trail onto Rena suspect; I didn't pay attention to the others.

I'm relatively certain that I wasn't. Though I did find it scummy when he claimed he was way back on page 3. That looked like some hardcore stalling.

Seems pretty trutful to me considering he ended up replacing out not too long after.

IDK, I think all three of you are scummy. This whole "guess who my buddies are" is just cheeky scum trying to squirm out of a lynch.

It's me trying to figure out your thought process.

Vote: Nacho

Why are you totally ignoring my request?

I didn't. I'm not necessarily completely complying with it, but I didn't ignore it.

Nacho, why don't you want to lynch AK anymore?

They seem town to me.

In all seriousness though I tried to be useful about 10-15 pages back with some wagon analysis, and that is when everyone jumped on me.

So instead of taking it as "we see the content you're producing and we don't really like it" you took it as "stop producing content"? Come on now.

I am also under the impression that he is a better player than this.

This is one of those things that always lead down bad bad roads. He might be a better player than you expect even though you don't agree with his reasoning, and he might be completely on track. On the other hand, he might not be used to this and it's frying his scumdar, OR you might be holding him up to unrealistic explanations. I've never really listened to this kind of reasoning unless people have had personal experience with the person before saying something like this.

No, never mind. Peregrine is town

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

Why is this?

UNVOTE: ceph

VOTE: AK

yeah sorry I just can't stand cry babies.

I mean I get the feeling that what your doing now is very frustrated town flailing but, your just too annoying for me right now, if you can calm down and start doing things logically I'll probably take this vote off.

Mollie, I didn't like this at all.

I just don't buy that he's a vig.

Do you think that he's a serial killer? Otherwise, there's no reason you should vote him today.

The Seanald wagon seems like somewhat of a "least common denominator" type of thing to me. The most appealing aspect of it is that his neighbor is on board, but there are certainly better lynch candidates in my view.

-----------------

Cephrir's argument for keeping ThAdmiral alive is terrible. He's giving him a pass for not giving a shit, when such an attitude is strictly alignment neutral. It's bad play if he's town (in that he makes no effort to help his faction), but can work as a strategy if he's scum, as evidenced by Cephrir's argument. And then on the same page, he offers up this insight into Seanald's play:

I think that could be something scum might do to look town (unafraid of looking anti-town) but I have trouble imagining town caring little enough to vote for such a dumb reason when they are supposedly actually suspicious of someone else. Plus, why does Seanald care if someone is annoying when he barely seems to be reading the thread?

So ThAd can't be SK because he's unafraid of looking anti-town and not giving a shit, but Seanald can be scum because he's doing it to look town and would be giving a shit if he was town. He's essentially making the same argument for both players, but reaching completely opposite conclusion.

Meanwhile, Cephrir hasn't said a peep about the fact that ThAd is planning to shoot one of his strong town-reads. If he was town, I would expect him to at least acknowledge this in his rampant white-knighting of ThAd.


----------------

Nero Cain's stance on ThAd is just as bad. He flat out stated that he thought ThAd was scum, but that he should be kept around "because he could be useful". From a town-perspective, I can't follow this reasoning at all; if you think someone is scum, you lynch them. An additional killing role has just as much or even more of a potential to further devastate the town than it has to be "useful", and if you actually think the player in question is scum there's no reason to believe that their actions are going to be in town's favor.

Nero-scum

knows

if ThAd is going to be useful to him based on the people he expressed a willingness to shoot. It's exactly the kind of stance scum would want to take if they're not aligned with the people in the crosshair. Keeping ThAd lynchable ("I think he is scum") while letting him do your dirty work. Unlike every other person who's waffled on ThAd, he doesn't want to keep him alive so he can prove his claim or because he actually believes the claim, but simply so he can be "useful".

----------------

Those two (in addition to ThAd) should be our top priorities for a lynch.

yea, that reason sucks but you're still a freshman and I could see that coming from newtown. Welp, back to OS.

vote:OS

But I also echo Nacho here, if OS flips scum then you need death.

RYU defending OS hard here...

Note to self: OS doesn't comment on Mollie's huge deflect

I didn't like that Nero's push on OS came with so many "ignoring him? you must be scum with him" remarks. It's essentially discrediting everyone who goes against the wagon; I liked his push on me a lot better and he didn't bring up all that shit when pulling it, but that could also be because multiball and he thought he might have caught me out as scum. The strength of the read and how long it carried on doesn't really make sense, though; his case on me was for questioning him on the mollie third party comments, and that scumread has stuck until now.

I think ya'lls vote on Nacho was rather opportunistic. Nacho already had 3 votes on him. You laid down a 4th vote supposedly oblivious to the budding Nacho wagon, which is something that seems like it would be easy to fake. And then when I call you on it you minorly flip out and pull out the "hey look over there" defense by telling me that I should look at bcade.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Oversoul

Le't do this.

Le't do this.

VOTE: Oversoul

Vote: Oversoul

K.

Unvote, Vote: Oversoul

....really all in one page right in a row, someone is scum here. I lean nacho/Cephrir most.

This, but its also likely multiball so OS could still be scum.

+ its OS and I'd love to lynch that.

But considering the strength of Nero's scumread against me, I find it strange as fuck that he keeps on jumping on people who were unlikely buddies with me. I also have no idea where the multiball assertion came from (completely out of nowhere), but his endorsement of an OS wagon while voting me and while people are saying there are likely scum in the OS jump was scummy as fuck.

you scum? Why would you care about who I fake vig tonight?

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

This was a bullshit line of reasoning and I hate it. Nero accused Arc of being scummy because she wanted to know who he would fake vig and that was rolefishing apparently... I figured he was trolling because the reasoning was so bad, but apparently not.

Why? He's prob town 'cause scumcho was voting for him.

He can vote for mislynches when I'm voting them because it's probably multiball. But when I'm attacking someone he doesn't want me to attack, he can call him town because I'm attacking them. That's convenient as fuck and I don't really see how town-Nero could ever have a thought process like this.

would I ever do without you? Thank you for telling me what *I* think. I have scum reads on both of you and I'm not picky in who we lynch.

And now he's talking about how his read on Fuzzy is as strong as his read on me, but. He's been voting me the entire game...

I don't think so. Given that they have history, it looks more like scum-Bacde obfuscating any potential read that Nachomamma8 can get on him.

Eh, Nacho looks like scum to me. I guess they could be scum from different teams.

"Not scum together? Multiball."

To be clear, he attacked fuzzy for stalling on page 3 and then attacked Hayrena for not scumhunting.

We aren't shooting or lynching me at all. Bcade and Nacho want me dead for shit all reason and it makes me paranoid.

Nero getting paranoid about me doesn't make sense, considering he's been scumreading me the entire game.

This whole "Nacho is a good scumhunter so he as town has to be correct about Nero." is nothing but a big pile of bullshit and potential chain lynching. It also seems incredibly lazy.

Bacde says that he'll probably suspect Nero if I'm vigged and flipped town, Nero flips the fuck out.

Yep, my bad. The slot is obvious town 'cause scum NEVER replace out.

Nero's response to me saying that fuzzy being lost was genuine since he replaced out immediately after, and Nero Cain overreacts.

Nacho's Nero case is awesome. Nice catch on the D1 multiball comment in particular. Sheep him.

Yeah 'cause those 2 extra lynches via kill sure wouldn't help town at all. Its not the first time I've been willing to leash a scum (sk?) killing power. Thad is obviously lying/trolling about being a neighbor AND a vig. That last line is fucking horrible.

a) Kills carried out by scum are not extra lynches.
b) You haven't done fuck all to "leash" ThAd until after I called you out.

What the absolute fuck is this scumcho? There was a reason that that scumRyu defended the fuck out of OS before he flipped town. And I'm accusing him of the same thing. You are playing way dense this game.

Yes, because he was white knighting. That doesn't mean everyone who defends someone else is white knighting.

A basic understanding of large game site meta. Stop being dumb.

You could talk about this a little more because we've all played in large normals before and they sure as hell aren't always multiball.

and why do you think that town Angel would care about my fake vig?

I don't know why. But I do think that she wouldn't be bold enough as scum to ask you about your fake vig if she thought you were a power role because she would be afraid you would turn it against her.

context is important here. ⅔ blue scum are dead. This means there’s only one blue scum left. Unless you are claiming to be the last blue scum (and therefore hunting redscum) then he does have a much higher chance of being town.

What makes me redscum?

So? I can have a scum read on more than one person. You are doing it so why are you being a hypocrite. This is also a lie ‘cause I started out both day 2 and 3 voting for Rena.

Then why do you still suspect Bacde? He's town if Haylen is voting him, right?

That’s ‘cause I wasn’t “getting” paranoid about you two.

Then what were you trying to say in that quote?

Yea ‘cause Bacade’s “Nacho is a good scumhunter so Nero has to be scum” made so much sense. I know that I’m town so any lynch/vig shot on me would be a waste. But I guess you’ll be ok with getting lynched/vigged when I flip town right?

Bacde was saying that he could be lynched if I flipped town, but you didn't find issue in that. You only freaked out when he suggested you be shot on my townflip.

That was NOT was was said. I was obviously being sarcastic.

I realize that, yeah.

<<< Fixed a quote tag. >>>

Nacho's Nero case is awesome. Nice catch on the D1 multiball comment in particular. Sheep him.

I'm not convinced. I think in large games it is not unusual to assert it might be multi-ball.

I did a bit of digging in Nero's completed New York games and you have to go back more than a year to find a proper multiball game with two mafia factions.

NY 163: open set-up, one scum faction
NY 161: single scum team
NY 160: scum team + SK
NY 151: scum team + SK
NY 150: single scum team
NY 143: two scum teams

So I don't see why Nero would just randomly assume that this game has more than one scum faction. Quick ISO-skim of his posts in those games reveals that he considers mafia + SK multiball. But I don't think the possibility of an SK would influence his scumhunting the way the multiball assertion did in this game.

It also turns out that his multiball thoughts in this game are inconsistent:

As for my read on you. I think your play has been pretty scummy. I don't think that everyone has a town read at you and those that do have it 'cause of meta. I have never played with Mala and my experience with Mara is limited so I'm willing to listen to other players that have more experience with ya'll and besides you are helping me kill Nachoscum so you get to ride in my null pile until I find out that this is multiball.

This, but its also likely multiball so OS could still be scum.

He's giving Mala a pass until he finds out it's multiball. He doesn't give OS a pass because it's likely multiball.

Either Nero is town who arbitrarily decided this was multiball somewhere between these two posts, or he's scum who knew this was multiball from the beginning, scumhunted the opposite faction in terms of this knowledge and let it color his play.

The fact that AK has a good chance of getting lynched today and you are defending her so so so hard is making alarm bells ring.

what does this even mean

"you think a person who other people find scummy is town? RED FLAGS EVERYWHERE"

What the absolute fuck is this scumcho? There was a reason that that scumRyu defended the fuck out of OS before he flipped town. And I'm accusing him of the same thing. You are playing way dense this game.

So I'm scum if AK flips scum, and I'm scum if AK flips town? Can you make up your mind, so I know exactly why I'm scum?

Well I have no clue what you are doing. Lets say for instance, if Ryu had flipped before OS. I'm pretty sure we'd have a group of players that would have thought that Ryu might have been defending a buddy and some that might think that Ryu was defending town for town cred. Town really has no way of knowing what scum are doing.

But we can kill it.

vote:Bulb

You accuse Bulb of being scum defending scum.
Then you accuse him of being scum defending town.
Then you get called out on it.
Your response is that you have no idea what he's doing but he's scum anyways because scum defended another player.
Fuck no.

I'm surprised the Nero wagon has stalled, but maybe I shouldn't be. It's made up almost exclusively of strong town reads. Nacho's case i think was a very solid piece of scumhunting and it's starting to really make me comfortable with him. The only person on the wagon I have issues with is Cephrir (and those issues have nothing to do with him being on the wagon). It looks to me like scum are reluctant to bus.

I haven't heard a good argument for why we shouldn't lynch Nero. AA9 thinks the wagon is bad because it's a counterwagon, which is a pretty wtf argument. HD is bored by the wagon. AK is against it because she has a meta read on Nero, I think? All these people need to give better reasons for why they aren't voting Nero right now.

Question to AK specifically because she's expressed a solid town read on 4/6 of the people voting Nero: If he's town, why aren't scum jumping at the opportunity to mislynch him?

Ffulisade, I disagree that Nero's defense hasn't been scummy. He's very selectively defending himself, hides behind theory discussion and is sidestepping most of the actual issues. Cases in point:
- His defense for dropping the D1 multiball tell is that he considers all 20+ player games likely multiball. But I've quoted an earlier post that's clearly designed to give the opposite impression, that Nero

didn't

just consider this game multiball without any supporting evidence. He didn't address this point at all because there is no defense for it. It's damning evidence.
- He's arguing back and forth about the merits of leaving a killing role alive, but he doesn't doesn't address the fact that he failed to do the one thing that actually makes the strategy feasible for town, the leashing. He meekly stated that we should give ThAd a pool of players to kill from, but only after I called him out.

Someone needs to explain to me why we are letting Nero Cain get away with lying on a fundamental level. Preferably Desperado or Ffulisade, because I know they're paying attention.

You've already pointed out that I use multiball interchangeably. I generally find Mala/Mara to be scummy. I did not know if we had scum team + sk or scum team + scumteam.

No. That does not match up at all with what he said at the time:

I have never played with Mala and my experience with Mara is limited so I'm willing to listen to other players that have more experience with ya'll and besides you are helping me kill Nachoscum so you get to ride in my null pile

until I find out that this is multiball.

"

Until I find out that this is multiball

". There is zero room for interpretation here. Nero did not, at the time of this post, want to give the impression that he was considering this a multiball game by default.

He even admits to the fact that he changed his tune depending on who he wanted to push: "I didn't want to pursue AK, so I said A", "I didn't want to derail the OS wagon so I said B". Who does that as town? It's a quintessential scum tactic.

This point alone should be enough to lynch him on the spot.

And this is just getting silly:

So what am I supposed to do to leash him? Yell at him in all caps that if he shoots outside the acceptable targets 'cause he already knows that's how I feel. I've been giving my reads all day and deadline is a week away and there's no point in finalizing my pool this far away. Why are you so curious to see who I want vigged?

Nero is the one advocating a "leashing" strategy. I think it's a terrible practice, so why should I be telling him what he's supposed to do to leash ThAd? I've already pointed out how this play makes perfect sense for Nero-scum and I still fail to see how it makes any sense for Nero-town. He's pleading that he couldn't have done any more to leash him, but if you can't do more than nothing, it's really not much a strategy, now is it?

-------------

The only argument I've seen in Nero's defense is that his play here reminds people of other town games of his. I find this to be a very unreliable use of meta, because it assumes that Nero-scum is incapable of emulating his town play. I think the manner and style of his defense here is par for the course for anyone who's invested in the game regardless of alignment, though it's worth pointing out that at various points in the game and until recently, Nero gave the impression that he wasn't terribly invested in the game. The

content

of his defense on the other hand is terrible.

Thoughts on other players coming up in a separate post.

Desperado, you are spooking me a great fucking deal. It's like we've entered bizzarro land.

You vote Nero Cain, and all it takes for you to move on is him showing up to defend himself ("stop flailing like a wuss", as you so nicely put it). It's enough for you to move him into the "likely won't lynch" pile even. I'm beginning to question why you voted him in the first place, he certainly hasn't defended well against the most pressing issues at hand. And now you've started defending him with arguments that are just astonishingly bad to me:

1. This is a normal game. Giving the scum team a color distinction when there's not actually a second scum team to match it is tantamount to bastard moddery. It's at the very least mod trickery, which is already against the spirit of normal games, and I'd be severely pissed off with Mastin and whomever greenlit the game if that was the case. In addition, we have had two kills a night and a third killing party claimed in ThAd. There is every reason to assume this is a multiball game at this point.
2. Even if it wasn't a multiball game, it doesn't have

any

bearing on Nero Cain's scumminess. He said something that directly contradicts his claimed game theory stance, to defend a player of questionable alignment (AK, who you read as scum). He claimed having this game theory stance to defend a

very

questionable line of reasoning he used to help lynch OS-town. There is

not a single thing

about this whole story that adds up to Nero being town and it doesn't make a lick of difference whether he knew this was multiball, thought this was multiball or knew the opposite.

Not only did you do an almost complete U-turn on Nero, you also apparently threw the big issue you had with the Seanald wagon out the window. The vast majority of your strong town reads still don't support a Seanald lynch, while the vast majority of your other scum reads does or did at the height of the wagon. I reread your case against him, and it's still not as strong as you make it out to be. The totality of your valid points doesn't even come close to matching the one huge point against Nero in scumminess, and there are other strong points in favor of Nero scum in addition to that.

Seriously, get a grip.

Spoiler: Slandaar's DLG/Peregrine Case

Thor dumb town, posts to actionDan make this more apparent.

If you're reading someone as Town, why are you working so hard to alienate that player?
Why, if you're reading someone as Town, are you expending effort to marginalize their opinion?

"Dumb Town, or Scum" is an exceptionally scummy read to give out for myriad reasons.

This guy needs a noose. Can't wait for the game to "officially" start so we can "quick-lynch" scum.

VOTE: ArcAngel9
I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of scumhunting.

We should massclaim. I am not joking.

Raise of hands, everyone in favor.

are you crazy.. No claims plz!!!!!!!!!!



Mastin2, I don't have any issue with HD hydra.

This is the kind of reaction I expect to a proposed massclaim from scum. Belittle the idea, but take no initiative to figure out why someone is proposing such an idea.

Also, rather than any commentary about any of the content that developed pre-game, or up to that point, an aside to the mod that served no purpose.

^wow, that VCA is just mind blowing. Great job Mastin

This post, in particular, gave me scum feelings towards ArcAngel9. Absolutely no commentary on the game state, no attempts to figure anything out. Prefering to interact with the mod over interacting with the game and other players is not Town motivated.

Her later commentary that the Oversoul wagon is bad 'cuz it's soooo quick again betrays her lack of interest in figuring out anyone's alignment.

Yep, yep, this is scummy behavior from someone who got a scum role PM. Let's lynch her.

{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

Everyone else has either made no impression on me, or haven't posted.

The whole 3rd party/Indie thing threw me for a loop when I read through it. My Town read on BeautyAndTheBeast just about went out the window. With a little more explanation, I'm thinking it probably was a dust up over different meanings applied to the same general term.

My read on Nachomamma8 dropped away from Town through this, though. I mean, I don't at all get him calling Nero Cain's flare up a dumb point. That looked a significant amount like potentially Nachmamma8 subtly buddying pirate mollie in particular, and through that, the hydra read on him. I'm a little unsure about this point, but that was my initial reaction on reading that post.

So, anyway, I'd really like to see more votes on ArcAngel9 or Bulbazak. I really don't like what is coming across as Bulbazak white-knighting BeautyAndTheBeast.

I really think this is scum if you look at how Ryu falls off the map in DLG's final reads post. Town just don't forget about people who they are so strong regarding ie saying 'This guy needs a noose. Can't wait for the game to "officially" start so we can "quick-lynch" scum.' then completely forgetting about them?

anyways sure lynch thad

VOTE: ThAd

Spoiler: ffullisade's Amethyst Kitty case

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=19101

byee

Fery come back soon! I misss youuu

y u no like meh

anyways I compared that to what you have done here. you only did it once in the you linked and thank you for doing that! cos I was able to see the difference in that you do >_> when it is other people's shifty behaviour yet you are doing it in

this

game in posts where you are actually shifty. not sure if you realise that or not.

I have a big poker tell. when I am actually holding something good in my hand I start twirling my hair. <----- I don't even know I am doing it it why I would probably be absolutely terrible IRL mafia.

also don't you just hate it when your scummate tries to bus you in the most awkward way possible?

VOTE: amethyst kitty

lynch this lynch it with fire guys

sorry it took me so long to get there, I had a reason I was staying away from them but I just realised that it is not adding up to their responses in this game.

Mollie you are being mean to me. I'm not going to talk to when you're accusing me of lurking when I was sleeping.
The fact you're saying I'm going to make empty promises and didn't even give me a freaken chance. Then accuse of me of a relative scum tell which is NOT true.

It's okay Mollie.

You'll learn that this little relative scum tell with >.> is bogus. Just like I had to learn that the relative scum tell I had on Om was no longer valid. Please stop saying I normally do when I write is a scum tell. I used to do it all the time on my other site and its where I picked it up from.

I can skim my only scum game there, but I don't even think I did shifty eyes, tbh.

Please walk me trough the Despo town read. I'm just not seeing it.

Dear Mara I hate 1v1. Why would you do this shit? <.<

Yes town is town bussing us. *dances*

Like these all sound like frustrated scum to me

do you see the difference between desperado's flail and ak's flail? I think telling the difference between scum flail and town flail is the most important skill a player can learn. I am by no means perfect cos sometimes I get it wrong but I can usually manage to spot town flail. scum usually resort to emotional manipulation like what scummy ak is doing.

The whole KK v AK that's all of Mara's. I'm not getting involved.

Despo:

You do realize we are a hydra right? Two heads don't see eye to eye on the same thing. We are fighting over the reads (again). I, Mala, sees you as leaning scum whereas Mara sees you as a weak town read.

I want Mollie to answer my question, but I'll see if that happens.

if you are town you need to knock the fucking bitchiness off. cos you both are starting to piss me off.

you asked fery for her desp read not me. you acted like you didn't even want to talk to me so you can fuck off with that shit.

I am reading desperado as town cos when he had a whole pile of pressure and was getting ready to get lynched he put a lot of effort into leaving a trail of his thoughts cos he thought he was getting lynched that day. #3909 is the first time you have done this even though I asked you both for a list of your thoughts yesterday. all I got was "mollie your stupid" that is why you looked like you were scum flailing not town flailing. cos that is what scum do. I mean hell I nearly escaped a lynch as scum once cos I said, "eat a dick town!" and you both know what game I am talking about.

and let be me clear. I am not lynching you over this >_>. relative tells take time to develope and I have no idea if it is one or not. I have a few that I feel good about and they are combo of town tells and scum tells. you were scum in uber's newbie game and I seem to remember you doing it a lot whenever you said something scummy. when I made that post it was me musing out loud. I don't have it down as a relative tell for you but if you flip scum you best believe I am putting that one down and if you try to deliberately use it as town to mess with meta all that it will get you is lynched, it would be better to just say "oh hey I am going to stop doing this cos it is a tell that I didn't even know I had!".

I am lynching you cos you have looked scummy all game. I have been staying away from you and trying to steer people away from you. desp asked me about my read on you. I listed games that I had meta knowledge of and pointed out how it was possible that you were town.

but her is the deal; if I am going to put my credibility on the line and ask other players to trust my judgment you best believe I am going to firm up that read. mala, I put my credibility on the line for rob when I shouldn't have in the epic game. he said a couple of wonky things but I was trusting

your

read but using

my

credibility. <---- will never do this again. from now on I will always firm up my read before doing that.

so how do I firm up my read? by interacting with players. I asked you about nero and was ignored until I started going after you and pointed out that you were ignoring my question. I asked for a list of all the players from towniest to scummiest and you still have yet to do that. #3909 is the only post that even remotely looks decent. but here is the thing; why did you not post something like that yesterday when I asked instead of you flailed around all over the place, called me stupid and tried to emotional manipulate me. at this point it might be a matter of too little too late but I am still catching up in the thread.

You know what. Fuck it.

Mara is going solo. I'm done.

<<< If this is an official request for MS Marangal to replace Amethyst Kitty, please clarify to make it explicit. >>>

Mollie is going off on me for a relative tell that isn't a relative tell and ignoring everything she said prior. She's started to fish at me because I dropped a PR tell during Day 1, but didn't breadcrumb any results. So apparently me not breadcrumbing = me being scummy. She's ignoring anything and everything I might have told her during past games and even on skype.

I am not ignoring anything.

I pressured you and you reacted horribly.

you both

however ignored my question about nero and have not done the one thing that I asked you both to do.

so you think I am role fishing you? I mean if I spotted the tell you would be dead right? cos I don't leave specials alive

you still look like you are scum flailing.

Not to mention she won't explain the damn Despo town read.

as I mentioned in a previous post, you didn't ask me you asked fery. you told me "bye". so I have explained my desp read even though you never asked me are you going to put your big girl britches on and stop acting like a freaking 2 year old who is not getting their way?

AA is lurking and just jumping on the wagon without fleshing shit out.

Mara is engaging in 1vs1 which I don't want to fucken deal with.

Slandaar does a 180 because thor flipped out. Btw I will probably see another 180 from you during the next day after we flip town.

Despo is likely scum.

I agree, arc is lurking to the point of ridiculousness. unfortunately she does this as town and you know it cos you gmed a game with her and I in it. she freaking went awol for days, often didn't seem to know what was going on and she was town. I know you read that game so the lurking should be a null tell for her and you should know this.

I seriously doubt you are town at this point cos everything you are saying is bullshit.

Mollie, Mala needs to cool down. Right now, she thinks you're acting like a bitch.

I wasn't the one who started calling someone stupid when they were asked to do something. if you were both at work like you claimed then a "I will get to it later, I promise" and a "we said we will get to it later". what you both did was to call me stupid over a period of several posts. <--- I call that the majiffy tell but lots of people do it when they are scum. nero and mastin are the only ones who do it regardless.

You know as well as I do how hard it is to do anything rationally when you're emotionally impaired.

lol.

when you pressured us, we were both unavailable to do anything beyond shallow interactions, we both told you this. Post 3909 was made the moment I got home from work, it was made ~5:00 my time

yeah you did and then proceeded to call me stupid and meltdown all over the place.

I gave you my read on nero, albiet it's mostly a response to Nacho but it has what you're looking for as well. at least I think it does.

you did not give it to me when I asked for it. you gave it later after some thought. cos when I originally asked for it you were around and not at work and had plenty of time to answer. you both were.

I also don't think I ignored any of your requests, I have followed through all of them when I said I would be able to do so. I told you, when you were asking for us to do something that I wouldn't be able to do it at that time.

no, I am still waiting for a complete list of all the players from towniest to scummiest. this is like the third time I have asked for it. I also want an explanation of your null reads if you have any.

3911 is what I have as reads at this time. I never do full reads list, I never explain my reads on someone unless I have to so 3911-12 is what you're going to have to deal with for now.

okay. so here you admit that you have not done what I asked of you after just saying you did everything I asked of you.

okay.

see here is the thing. the aTe-ing is not working for either fery or I. why cos we are both the Mistresses of Emotional Manipulation and do it regardless of alignment. there are different motivations behind it though. it is subtle, but they are there. fery and I have both self-voted, lashed out, fake meltdowns and emotionally manipulated the fuck out of anybody who tried to lynch us as scum. we have both even done the "fuck you" and I know I have subbed out of game cos I had too much IRL stuff going on but told other players that it was because of them. I think we have gotten burnt out on it though cos neither of us really do it as much anymore, for me, only special occasions. but I know it can be done and it usually wins games.

SO. if we remove all of the aTe and just go by body of work what we are looking at is a whole lot of scummy behaviour. there is a lot of inconsistency to what you guys are saying for instance mala saying that she asked me for my read on desp but she didn't she told me "bye", she asked fery. <----- crap like that looks more like scum getting rattled than desperate town trying to avoid a mislynch.

fery and I both still think you are scum. you cannot bullshit bullshitters <---- we can spot it. if you guys are town then all I can say is whoa, get a grip. we all lose it from time to time, LET ME BE THE FIRST TO SAY I HAVE HAD SOME AWSUM EPIC MELTDOWNS AS ALL ALIGNMENTS. <---- not proud of them (well some of them I kind of am cos they were really funny) but it happens.

anyhoo without much further ado

VOTE: amethyst kitty

@ ak

Mala has him as scum. Mala thinks AD was really fluffy, and Thad is the exact same. He isn't as aggressive as she's used to him being and he's following pushes of others over making pushes of his own. She also think his Vig claim is lazy, and a fake-claim. she's thinking SK, or red scum.

She also thinks that Mollie's relative tell that we used in Tit for Tat can be used on him again this game

.

?

I went back and looked in our chatlog about that game and I don't see how you could interpret that tell and apply it to this game. if anything he is doing the opposite. I believe him cos of his whole suck my dick post which I found to be kind of funny. I am just not feeling that he is scum but then I suppose I could interact with him to firm up the read cos I haven't played with him that much. and I think I will.

@ nacho

re: seanalderina

I could see him making that post as either alignment but for completely different reasons.

re: ak

see, I don't think mara is acting at all like she did in polygamy. she seems too calm, almost like she is being coached. I see the same behaviour in popcorn either other than she was calmer in that game to a degree, she just didn't know what to say when wisdom went after her and I was not around to help. I have been negging on her scum game hard <---- cos I want her to improve her game. she and mala will understand this and I think so will you.

she says things like this:

for me, alot of it is meta based... he does alot of 1v1 ( I don't know if he does these as scum too) and his thoughts and ideas look pretty genuine to me. I see a bit of logical fallacy in his posts, though he's generally fearless with his opinions and doesn't really care of how others view it. He has that stubborness that I have witnessed him to have as town and is unwavering behind it. He's pretty aggressive in his attacks, the only thing I have a problem with is his choice of targets. some of them look pretty easy. I can't really follow his thought process behind his Rena, Kitty, Nero, and Thad votes but that's pretty minor I think.

and I don't feel like I am talking to mara. I swear that reads list looks more like mala than mara it is weird. I mean I feel like I am talking to this player:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1200

iso it. mala's scum game is highly detailed.

but mara is signing the post. so it confuses me.

nacho I am telling you that I have done exactly what mala has done in this game as scum and everyone town read me for it. I know it is not good yardstick to measure another player with what I have done, but there is something there that I just don't like. I mean, how is applying pressure (and god knows I have been nice I mean we all know how mean I can get when I get pissed off <----working on it) being mean? go back and read the exchanges and tell me that it was not an overreaction.

and don't say a thing about how I am at tr that is years of frustration we are talking about that someone who is not familiar with the history would understand. I think you are putting them in your town pile and they don't really belong there.

I have always had a seekrit belief that the game is usually won by the player(s) who most wants it. I think scum really wants this, especially red scum. ak's post asking about "do you think that it is possible that it is scum + sk?" is a lead up to stoking the fires of a thad lynch. do you know what does not add up with their thad scum read? I fucking read him like a picture book so wouldn't you think they would put more stock in my read?

and of course if thad by some chance flips scum I will eat humble pie but I am going to fight his lynch kicking and screaming cos I want to at least give him a chance. also wondering if the stuff between khan and them is scum theatre. it is possible but I feel like slaandy if more of a likely partner.

I'm going to keep every emotion that I may or may not have out of this post.

@Mollie:

You have a point in regards to the reads, but no it was actually Mara that did that. She asked me for my reads and I went back and read through all of Thez/Ruu's posts. I gave the reasons why I thought Thad/Despo are scum. Might not have been in great detail, but I tried to explain it as best.

Why ask us for our reads if you were just going to twist it and say we are scum for it

. Along with the fact you pulled up my scum game, but you're forgetting it's just not scum-Mala that can post reads like that because Town-Mala has also.

I have been wanting your reads all game. it took heavy pressuring before you finally gave them out in this day round. I want a trail. if you are town then hell yeah I will be doing a follow up if I am alive, if you are scum then hey we have something to work from.

My skype message to Mastin was about skype logs, but I think they are treated similar to QT post logs so I wanted to check with him before posting it. I would have proven that Mara did all of that work and not me.

Mollie I tried working with you earlier and tried to reach out a few times. I asked you about Thad because I saw that relative tell from Tit For Tat in this game. It wasn't as obvious, but it's there in his earlier posts.

there was no follow-up with the reach out instead you are applying a relative tell I have on a player when I am not applying it myself cos I am not seeing it. if it is there then show me. what you

might

be applying is what I had on his meta but then why not listen to the player who gave it to you.

You are forgetting that we are hydra'ing and we can control each other. The only time we can't control each other's emotions is when we aren't around at the same time. You're trying to fuel justification by saying she's being coached. Similar to KK saying that we were coaching Ryu. KK you need to read up on my meta I do the whole cop thing regardless of alignment. I flipped out of scum-OM for doing it because he tried to direct the action during Switch.

you were both around when you melted down. so not much control there. :/

it isn't similar to what I am saying about ryu at all. I don't think you are blue scum. I think you are red scum and there is someone on your team who is coaching you or you are coaching mara cos that did not look a post of hers. I also think you are playing the hydra cog dis to the max which is what we did in the popcorn game. but cog dis in a hydra a null tell so that is not my angle. my angle is, is that there is something going on with you 2 and when I pressed you scumflailed. I mean you melted down over

nothing

. mebbe you were mad cos I brought up the skype thing and that is why I tell people when I hydra with them to go ahead and put yourself on invisible if you are a lurky scum player cos it is pretty damn hard to ignore. and I see no reason not to bring it up when you don't do that, it at least lets you know to cover your tracks better. it is the same as remembering people's work and computer time schedules it is never something I intentionally do it is something that I just do.

if that is what offended you I apologise.

but if we are just going to go off of in thread behaviour up until this point you guyz looked pretty scummy and there was only 1 reason I could give for that, I even flagged it to nacho on d1 I think. one of the main reasons why I do not think he is scum but scum make weird choices in their nks on this site but I think nacho is town.

anyways you probably won't be the lynch for the day cos when women fight men scatter. it is a survival mechanism for them or something.

I missed this post

Oh and Mollie;

Mara doesn't appreciate you using her worse two scum games to judge her. Also the fact the post this game with the reads looks nothing like my detailed posts. Being calm is not a relative-scum tell.

I don't appreciate being called stupid just cos I decided to put pressure on you.

when did she tell you this? I think it looks more like yours and less like mara's. *shrug*

being calm

is

a relative scumtell but it may not apply to her. dunno.

So on the most random note. The fact is Rena, Nacho, Nero & our wagon took off like wildfire, but we can't get any votes onto Despo/KK.

I did say Thad too so I'm kinda wondering about that scum-read I had on him due to that fact, but the wagons were fast paced and I have noticed the wagons that are harder to get votes on are sometimes scum rather then town

.

when you get back lets talk about this.

[Desperado]

You really shouldn't act so eager arc, cuz you just sound like you dont actually give a shit about who dies just as long as someone dies.

Why is this guy still alive?

[Desperado]

It is though.

She's eager to lynch you because we are three days from the deadline and she thinks you're scum. Are you saying that townies should not show any enthusiasm in their pursuit of scum or what?

[Desperado]

So you've decided that the vengeball is OK to use as a meta baseline?

[Desperado]

So you've decided that the vengeball is OK to use as a meta baseline?

It will have to do for this game. Posts far enough outside that range are attention-getting, for sure.

Alright. If not Seanald and not Nero, where are you guys looking next?

[Desperado]

Despo #4495 reminds me a lot like Adam's post in Jiffy's game.

What does this mean?

[Desperado]

I'm spooking you because we don't agree on one person?

You are spooking me because I don't get the change of heart and I don't get why you're making such an awful argument to defend him. You say he towntold, but I don't see it. All I see is "he stopped playing like a wuss and engaged his wagon", which is intrinsically town how exactly? It's not hard for scum to engage a wagon, and it's not hard for scum to make good points either when you just look at the softball arguments. He hasn't made good points on the damning arguments.

You are spooking me because this kind of play strikes me as something a scumbuddy would want to do. Sheep the wagon to distance, allow buddy to "towntell", move him into townpile.

If that's how you choose to interpret it I doubt there's anything I can say to change your mind. How about we revisit it if Nero flips scum?

If it's not as strong as I'm making it out to be, tell me where it's weak, don't tell me to "get a grip."

I think it's bad practice to defend players against cases made by others before they have defended themselves, particularly if you don't have at least some semblance of a town read on them. In writing this, I ask myself why the hell exactly Seanald hasn't addressed your case on him because it's been a while and it turns out his wagon pretty much imploded without any intervention on his part. That is an issue.

An issue in what way?

I remember having instances of doubt wrt to Bulba, but I'd have to do some rereading to check what they were. There seem to be some meta-related reasons people are suspecting him (Desperado in particular, if memory serves), and I'd like for someone to summarize these reasons, as I most certainly don't have time to read any of his other games.

You're probably right sadly.

And then I flip town, and Bulbazak convinces themselves that I played scummy and it's not their fault, and they keep scumhunting in their flawed ways.

Sadness.jpg

He's in my head. No, seriously:

I bet you're wrong a lot, aren't you? Not everyone is an automaton...players are guaranteed to make mistakes as either alignment, get caught in your web of neverending quote boxes and buzzwords, and eventually just give up under the sheer weight of it all. But your conscience is clean because you went by the book.

After reading that game it's going to take something really, really drastic for me to ever read Bulb as town again.

Cliffnotes of the game from my reading: Bulb replaces in as scum, townreads the VI that is about to get lynched and goes after his wagon leader (Molla) real hard. All of his game is mind games and quote boxes, complete with his Buzzword Bingo board, with Molla. Molla immediately sniffs it out as bullshit but Bulb never quits. Molla eventually breaks and goes insane with multiple all caps posts about how obviously manufactured Bulb's play and case was.

As I read it, each new Bulb post made me do a double take; it was like his game here was a direct sequel. I haven't had a chance to read the town game he provided, though, so it's possible that he plays similarly as town as scum, because his SK game was pretty distinctively different, so I'll get back to you.

[Desperado]

Despo #4495 reminds me a lot like Adam's post in Jiffy's game.

@Fery:

You and Mollie were agreeing we were town read to you guys at some point? Can you explain that further please?

~

first off which post of adam's I mean adam had like 600 posts in that game but you seem to have a specific 1 in mind. so can you post it here and compare? cos I think desperado and adam are as different as night and day like I don't think desp is a dickhead at all. tbh that comparison looks like you are talking out of your ass and throwing mud to see what sticks.

you are also being needy as hell with these freaking inane questions and I mean the both of you. and ftr I haven't moved you to my town pile cos I did not wake you up when you went apeshit, you had already posted a good 15 minutes before you posted in this game in another part of the board. so you were lying about that and it still isn't sitting right with me.

my gawd Mollie.

This was towards Fery. She made a comment towards Nacho and I read it once upon a time you guys shared a read on us that was not-scum. So I asked for explanation.

I guess it's not the same. I swear I thought he did spoilers like Despo did, but he didn't. So forget it.

You know what you

~

Hey I asked you once and you ignored it.

What are you guys talking about?

[Desperado]

i just want a link damnit

[Desperado]

Don't feel like explaining it right now though.

Please don't forget, I'd love to hear it.

[Desperado]

Because that's pretty outrageous and I can't wait to see how you justify.

[Desperado]

^^ fuck is all that?

Looks to me like Nacho is challenging peregrine's accusation that he's been useless.

[Desperado]

OK I read enough of NY 163 to see town Bulb here.

Thad's jump onto Bulb's wagon was terrible. In #4065 Thad "will not lynch" bulb:

Ok Imma try and sort out my reads.

Will not lynch:
pere
cephrir
kk
bacde
bulb
ffulisade

In #4087 he responds to Bulb's question like he's a townread and joins the Seanald wagon:

killing at night:
crashtextdummy

Why?

Honestly I'm leery that everyone thinks he is town (even though I used to). Looking back I don't see much to imply he's as towny as everyone says he is.

--~~--

Seanald wagon seems good enough for me.

vote: seanald

Then in #4494, with no further interaction, Thad says:

Vote Nero Cain

Okay, here's the plan. I'm assuming that town has a protective role of some sort. What I'm asking is that CTD be protected during the night phase, since he is essentially def. town, and we'll need him in the upcoming days. With that, the ball is in your court ThAd. If you really are the vig., you should know that this upcoming night phase is likely to be the only one to prove yourself. You can shoot at whoever you think is scum or is harmful to the town (although it might not hurt to ask for suggestions from the town itself, being that you outed yourself and all), however, should you aim at CTD, you will be wasting your shot. Anybody else is okay (even me), as there is enough contention with the rest of the player list as to gain useful information from a flip.

CTD, I'd still find those reads/final thoughts useful, just in case. Should the wagon get to L-1, I'll try to keep the hammer off long enough for you to get as much information as you want out. If anybody quickhammers with this in mind, I will make it my mission to lynch them.

Don't try to direct night actions. I think Nero might be right about you, you're a bad egg.

Nero you're town aren't you?

Reminder: Nero has been discussing directing Thad's night action as early as #3838:

Thad claims X-Shot, not 2-Shot

this is correct.

I'm think THAD is scum based on his role claim but the extra kills could be useful. I don't think I want to kill him today.

In #4503 bulb is back in Thad's townpile:

quite a few actually:
peregrine
cephrir
kk
bacde
bulb
ffulisade
nero
desp

And then in #4558 he responds to CTD calling him out on the above contradiction:

In post 4537, CrashTextDummie wrote:
In post 4503, ThAdmiral wrote:
In post 4499, ffullisade wrote:
@ thad

who is in your town pile. I would like to know plz.

quite a few actually:
peregrine
cephrir
kk
bacde
bulb
ffulisade
nero
desp

In post 4494, ThAdmiral wrote:
Don't try to direct night actions. I think Nero might be right about you, you're a bad egg.


Clearly he's not even paying attention to what he's writing himself.


Yeah, I just copy-pasted that from an earlier post. Take bulb off there.

^He says he copy/pasted from an earlier page, but as you can see above he added Nero and myself to his town list. It was clearly meant to be updated list, and it hadn't even been ten posts since he told Bulb not to direct his night action. I don't buy it.

Can we just lynch him now? Enough with this leashing shit.

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

[Desperado]

That vig pool is absolutely awful

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

AK and Ceph are the only ones I'm even remotely interested in seeing dead right now.

My alternative is to just lynch him instead.

[Desperado]

I have reasoning actually... Desp made case on DLG, his best contribution of the Day which he dropped without ever revisiting he also made some weak accusations towards Ryu without following up.

This can't be all you had. I dropped it without ever revisiting because DLG got replaced. And I didn't follow up on Ryu accusations because he fucking died that night.

...seriously that is the laziest relationship scumhunting I've ever seen.

[Desperado]

Not to mention I've been consistently hounding Peregrine about his neighbordhood. Where does that fit into us being scum together?

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

VOTE: bulba

lets do this

Lets not

Vote Thad instead.

[Desperado]

Beat me. Lets lynch thad

[Desperado]

Notice how your names are both at the end? Yeah, that's because I added you and didn't edit the stuff that was already there. Pretty simple really.

No, it isn't simple. You added us to the end with the thought process of "I'm gonna update my town reads." Not even ten posts earlier you had started to consider Bulb as scum. I understand that you just. don't. give. a. shit. but I don't understand how it wouldn't occur to town-you to take Bulb out of your townpile. This reads like a lame excuse.

[Desperado]

This slandaar wagon fucking reeks yo

Unvote
Vote: Bulbazak

Bulb v Slandaar is looks way more like Bulb v Molla than anything in NY 163.

[Desperado]

Nero has actually been townposting lately.

It irritates me that we are somehow, inexplicably, lynching neither Seanald nor Rena today. Them's the breaks, I guess.

Vote: Slandaar

Yeah this guy is scum too

[Desperado]

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

[Desperado]

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

Because each scum group is competing against the other. (Potential for cross-kills)

I like how Nero Cain is just now questioning the 8 scum = scumslip theory. When I questioned it, he declared I was defending Slandaar.

OK, but since we've already talked about Nero's large game experience re: multiball, we have 11 large games that I would say represents a reasonable cross section of possibilities.

WWE - 21 players, two scum teams, 5 scum, 24%
Gears of War mafia - 21 players, two scum teams, 6 scum, 29%
How two and a half friends - 21 players, scum team + SK team, 5 scum, 24%
Meta Playstyle mafia - 20 players, scum team + SK, 6 scum, 30%
Harry Potter - 21 players, scum team + SK, 5 scum, 24%
NY 163 - 17 players, scum team, 5 scum, 30%
NY 161 - 21 players, scum team, 5 scum, 24%
NY 160 - 15 players, scum team + SK, 4 scum, 27%
NY 151 - 24 players, scum team + SK, 7 scum, 29%
NY 150 - 17 players, scum team, 4 scum, 23%
NY 143 - 21 players, two scum teams, 6 scum, 29%

Not a single one has 33% scum. If anything I think 7 scum with

unbalanced scum teams!!!

is probably the most likely, as almost every game falls between somewhere between 1/3 and 1/4. 7 falls right into that sweet spot at 29%.

[Desperado]

yeah, I just did the math. 6 is only 25%. 8 is 33.33333333333%. So 8 is more likely than 6. Slandaar is prob red scum with Cephir and two of Khan/Nacho/Rena/CTD/Bacde

So blue is probs Bulb with one of CTD/Bacde/khan.

How did you conclude that 1/3 is more likely than 1/4?

I might be wrong here...for some reason I had it in my head that scum were like 30ish% of a game. Do you think Slan and Thez earlier slipped the number of scum?

I think thez saying 7-8 scum and then flipping scum is more damning than Slandaar speculating 8 scum after that. And Bulb's attempt to call it a scumslip because town should always assume the best case scenario is monumentally stupid.

When I questioned it, he declared I was defending Slandaar.

So why did you not deny that you were defending Slan when I accused you of it? 'Cause you were and you knew it.[/quote]

[Desperado]

Meant to lop that 2nd quote off, whoops

[Desperado]

WWE and 2 and a half friends had SK teams. Don't see how that's any different from two scum teams. And the point was that 33% scum doesn't appear anywhere, in any of those large games. Can you link me to some larges that have 33% scum?

[Desperado]

WWE and 2 and a half friends had SK teams. Don't see how that's any different from two scum teams. And the point was that 33% scum doesn't appear anywhere, in any of those large games. Can you link me to some larges that have 33% scum?

??????????????? I said ish. Stop being so goddamn literal.

I wasn't talking to you Nero

[Desperado]

@Desperado: What are your thoughts on scum distribution in the neighborhoods? Seeing as how you have a scumread on Seanald, I've assumed you've thought of it.

I don't really care and it hasn't played a role in any of my reads. Everyone seems to agree that Mastin is a great mod and that this game took forever to review, so I think any combination of possibilities is in play, and trying to make decisions based on what the composition of the neighborhoods "should" look like at this stage of the game doesn't sit well with me.

<<< You're giving Nero Cain a run for his money in the "most posts deleted by the moderator" category. >>>

[Desperado]

I have no idea what to make of Slandaar staying on the Rena wagon in lieu of putting Bulb to L-1 even though he thinks he's scum and he is his direct counterwagon.

???? what the hell?

[Desperado]

@Desperado: Do you disagree that a scum flip in the neighborhoods would not clear things up as far as scumhunting goes, especially if, as we suppose, there's another scum in the neighborhoods as well?

Yes, I disagree.

There's no reason to assume both hypothetical scum teams should get one member each in a neighborhood other than you think it would be balanced, despite several players telling you that there are other ways to balance a game besides "total equality in everything."

[Desperado]

I really don't think he is.

Why do you think he's staying on Rena vs. putting Bulb to L1?

[Desperado]

Yeah and that isn't happening in the next two hours mollie, so what about slandaar/bulb?

[Desperado]

So in a game where we need to make connections to find scum, you're refusing to make connections? Balanced neighborhoods make sense from a setup point of view, and a scum flip from Slandaar would help bolster your Seanald case. If you don't think this is the case, then you need to explain why.

You can't be serious with this. 50% of my Seanald case is his connections to the flipped bluescum--you know, the people we know for sure were scum. The "connections" that you are trying to find in the neighborhoods aren't based on anything except your personal opinion of what would make the neighborhoods balanced in the context of the setup that you shouldn't know anything about other than your role. Making determinations on what would be "balanced" in the neighborhoods isn't coming from a town mindset at all.

Because 1.) He'd be putting me at L-2, not L-1, and 2.) he knows that I'll flip town, and he doesn't want to be a part of the wagon and experience the backlash tomorrow.

Why would he get backlash for putting a vote on his direct counterwagon?

Your push on Metal actually made sense. Your pushes on Molla and now Slandaar...don't.

The full Bulb case is that your approach to this game has been to comb everyone's posts for scumslips, antagonize whoever you find into a quote war, and then pass that off as legitimate scumhunting. It's manufactured. Reading that game with Molla felt like having an out-of-body experience.

And I'm not interested in lynching Slandaar.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Slandaar

I ISO'd slandaar and Bulb's points #1, #2, and #5 in the above post are so, so true.

That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do.

The simple version is yes you can influence it if you really believe its not good for town you make sure it doesn't happen, he just doesn't want to. A massclaim where he as scum doesn't claim? Christmas came early!

Now unless you are suggesting that I have some sort of godlike power to prevent people from massclaiming, what more do you want me to do?

Well if you were town you could try to convince others not to do it. Perhaps argue why its a bad idea.

Do something.

It appears this godlike power is just common sense?

I have done plenty of scumhunting thanks, but after making a case and showing someone is scum what more can one do? Rewrite the case with pretty colours?

That's not a contradiction that a townie would make.

[Desperado]

has had us down as scum all game and now within minutes of his lynch he starts entertaining the idea that we are town? cos saying, "I will look into rena if I live" is treating us as town

No it isn't.

[Desperado]

of course it's not a scumlynch
those wagons were horrible

Maybe you should have been around to do something about it

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

When and why did this happen?

Not sure, and because I evidently didn't have enough cache to get any of my five top townreads to lynch Seanaldscum with me

<<< Deleted yet another double-post. >>>

[Desperado]

Walk me through it Bulb

[Desperado]

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

[Desperado]

Mollie stop getting distracted by Bulb and help me get AK lynched

[Desperado]

Mollie stop getting distracted by Bulb and help me get AK lynched

The AK vote is good but why are you against a Bulb wagon? You claimed his play here resembled that of his scum play or have you changed your mind?

It did resemble one of his scum games, but he also has town meta that is similar as well so I have to fall back on his play in this game, which puts him in the townpile. I think your fight with him is stupid and you should stop it because at this point it's beyond semantic. It's alphabetic.

Desperado, why do you want AK lynched?

Terrible KK push, fake half-replace out, vague reads. They're scum.

Penguin is trying to soft push my wagon. She talks about how she doesn't think that Khan would jail keep me, simply because I was the counterwagon to Slandaar, which means that she sees me as scummy and is soft pushing my wagon without actually voting for me. Do you think this is an incorrect interpretation of what Penguin said?

Penguin is town and wasn't doing what you say she was doing there. At all.

Despo, why are you seemingly ignoring this game?

It isn't my first priority and I work weekends. Is there something else you wanted to ask me?

[Desperado]

no. I just been seeing you online and posting elsewhere so I was just wondering what's up.

All of my time yesterday got eaten up by my first moderated game starting.

[Desperado]

I think your fight with him is stupid

I disagree. I feel like if you were reading the walls then you'd understand why I find him scummy. I think the scum read on me is pretty forced. I think he's buddying CTD big time. And his thought process concerning the neighbors makes no fucking sense what so ever.

I am reading them, and it's been forced since Deflectiongate.

I see the buddying, but I also see him continuing to do it even after you called him out on it. Seems like he just really, really thought he was town and now he's getting slightly paranoid (just like you). I feel like you guys are arguing the same thing from different angles.

[Desperado]

@ Cephrir & Bulba-

Why did I vote Nacho?

Well,
4843
4844
He's got a point.

4632
Nacho quoting Nacho as the reason to tunnel me.

4782
Voting for a town read in a game that does not require a majority lynch.

(lots of posts)
Buddying ffulisade

Everchanging and confusing reads (spoiled below):

Spoiler: Senald scum/not scum, Bulba not scum but 4806

you know that i would not call somene town unless my gut hardly says.. Nero is town. and If feel you're town. So, Now stop pissing each other..

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

And also i want to know what your thoughts on Cephier.

Cephrir's probably town.

let's look at cephrir. does anybody seriously believe that cephrir has no idea what to do with thad's "trolling". omg, no. I mean that is what cephrir is saying, "I have no idea what to do about thad's trolling cos I have just never encountered it before!". oh plz.

I've learned that trolling can apparently throw people off in extremely weird ways.

bacde, you freak me out because dragonballz.

- f

this essentially is dragonballz
and sooner or later everything will just click and a bunch of scum will die and everything will be okay.

Fery makes me sad on so many levels. Like SUPER SAD. ~~~Actually I said this to Mara after the Donner Party game ended. There was something similar that was said here to something said there. Bulb had a total different reaction to it here which made me lean town on him mainly because he was SK in DP.

I don't get it.

- f

they're town.

The only argument I've seen in Nero's defense is that his play here reminds people of other town games of his. I find this to be a very unreliable use of meta, because it assumes that Nero-scum is incapable of emulating his town play.

I trust mollie's (and AA's, believe it or not) instincts when dealing with Nero. Sometimes he plays great, sometimes he plays incredibly scummily, self-destructs, etc.

My problem with your Nero case lately is that we still don't even know it's multiball. If it isn't, your entire case goes up in flames. I think my Seanald case is stronger than your Nero case, straight up.

two kills per night --> claimed vig who hasn't shot --> "blue" scum all sort of equals multiball
if ThAd gets counterclaimed by bullets and flips blue scum, then maybe it's not multiball but that's looking HIGHLY unlikely at this point.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

BULBAZAK HAS BEEN TOWN FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME

FFERY MOLLIE IS CALLING BULBAZAK TOWN
FIX IT

Lack of scumreads even though 4-6 scum left (depending on your setup belief).

This case sucks.

- Bacde didn't have a point. His argument was "I've caught more scum than Nacho this game, so you should reconsider your townread on him (because that makes him scum)."
- Nacho quoted Nacho because you called him useless, so he posted what he felt were his most non-useless posts...with the obvious implication that they far outweigh what you might hypothetically include in a "Peregrine's Best Hits" style post.
- Where did Nacho have Slandaar as a townread? I see him showing suspicion as early as 1852, and he voted him in 3585 as well. Also...weren't you actively requesting people to vote Slandaar?
- What is your read on ffullisade and what specifically is scummy about Nacho's buddying?
- "Ever-changing" Seanald read: He applied pressure, did meta research, and changed his mind. What's scummy?
- "Ever-changing" Bulb read: Blatant misrep, on a typo no less! You can't be serious. Both posts in succession:

FFERY MOLLIE IS CALLING BULBAZAK TOWN
FIX IT

ISN'T*

[Desperado]

That might be the first genuine thing I've seen you say all game.

Unvote: Amethyst
Vote: Peregrine

[Desperado]

At least I can take solace in the fact that it wasn't as bad as your nacho case.

[Desperado]

...

[Desperado]

@ Cephrir & Bulba-

Why did I vote Nacho?

Well,
4843
4844
He's got a point.

4632
Nacho quoting Nacho as the reason to tunnel me.

4782
Voting for a town read in a game that does not require a majority lynch.

(lots of posts)
Buddying ffulisade

Everchanging and confusing reads (spoiled below):

Spoiler: Senald scum/not scum, Bulba not scum but 4806

you know that i would not call somene town unless my gut hardly says.. Nero is town. and If feel you're town. So, Now stop pissing each other..

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

And also i want to know what your thoughts on Cephier.

Cephrir's probably town.

let's look at cephrir. does anybody seriously believe that cephrir has no idea what to do with thad's "trolling". omg, no. I mean that is what cephrir is saying, "I have no idea what to do about thad's trolling cos I have just never encountered it before!". oh plz.

I've learned that trolling can apparently throw people off in extremely weird ways.

bacde, you freak me out because dragonballz.

- f

this essentially is dragonballz
and sooner or later everything will just click and a bunch of scum will die and everything will be okay.

Fery makes me sad on so many levels. Like SUPER SAD. ~~~Actually I said this to Mara after the Donner Party game ended. There was something similar that was said here to something said there. Bulb had a total different reaction to it here which made me lean town on him mainly because he was SK in DP.

I don't get it.

- f

they're town.

The only argument I've seen in Nero's defense is that his play here reminds people of other town games of his. I find this to be a very unreliable use of meta, because it assumes that Nero-scum is incapable of emulating his town play.

I trust mollie's (and AA's, believe it or not) instincts when dealing with Nero. Sometimes he plays great, sometimes he plays incredibly scummily, self-destructs, etc.

My problem with your Nero case lately is that we still don't even know it's multiball. If it isn't, your entire case goes up in flames. I think my Seanald case is stronger than your Nero case, straight up.

two kills per night --> claimed vig who hasn't shot --> "blue" scum all sort of equals multiball
if ThAd gets counterclaimed by bullets and flips blue scum, then maybe it's not multiball but that's looking HIGHLY unlikely at this point.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

BULBAZAK HAS BEEN TOWN FOR THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME

FFERY MOLLIE IS CALLING BULBAZAK TOWN
FIX IT

Lack of scumreads even though 4-6 scum left (depending on your setup belief).

This case sucks.

- Bacde didn't have a point. His argument was "I've caught more scum than Nacho this game, so you should reconsider your townread on him (because that makes him scum)."
- Nacho quoted Nacho because you called him useless, so he posted what he felt were his most non-useless posts...with the obvious implication that they far outweigh what you might hypothetically include in a "Peregrine's Best Hits" style post.
- Where did Nacho have Slandaar as a townread? I see him showing suspicion as early as 1852, and he voted him in 3585 as well. Also...weren't you actively requesting people to vote Slandaar?
- What is your read on ffullisade and what specifically is scummy about Nacho's buddying?
- "Ever-changing" Seanald read: He applied pressure, did meta research, and changed his mind. What's scummy?
- "Ever-changing" Bulb read: Blatant misrep, on a typo no less! You can't be serious. Both posts in succession:

FFERY MOLLIE IS CALLING BULBAZAK TOWN
FIX IT

ISN'T*

Not even twenty posts ago.

[Desperado]

Otherwise, this looks very opportunistic, considering Nacho has no case on me besides "Useless", and you failed to comment on my case on Nacho.

Also this is a lie. Nacho hasn't cased you for being useless. You're the one who accused HIM of being useless.

[Desperado]

His point was that he has led the push hard on thez. He saw something that I didn't see, and thez flipped scum. So if he's seeing it again, then he's right, listen to him.

No. His point was that if he's caught more scum than Nacho that probably means Nacho is scum, and that Bulb should consider that information and reevalute his townread on Nacho. And he wasn't the only one who saw Thezscum.

In post 4952, Desperado wrote:
- Nacho quoted Nacho because you called him useless, so he posted what he felt were his most non-useless posts...with the obvious implication that they far outweigh what you might hypothetically include in a "Peregrine's Best Hits" style post.

Well, net result is if that was his best posting to prove I'm scum, I'm totally not convinced.

Guess it's a good thing that wasn't what he was doing? You called him useless and he quoted himself being decidedly not-useless. It had nothing to do with proving you are scum (other than the fact that you levied a poorly thought out accusation).

In post 4952, Desperado wrote:
- Where did Nacho have Slandaar as a townread? I see him showing suspicion as early as 1852, and he voted him in 3585 as well. Also...weren't you actively requesting people to vote Slandaar?
In post 2091, Nachomamma8 wrote:
I feel better about Slandaar now.
In post 4161, Nachomamma8 wrote:
This doesn't mean we should focus on the neighbor group.
In post 4782, Nachomamma8 wrote:
what is with this town and its shit wagons
Those wagons being Slandaar and Bulba.
I was asking these people.
In post 4773, PeregrineV wrote:
Requesting ThAd, ArcAngel, Bacde or Desp moves their vote to Slandaar.

Fair point, although without checking I'm pretty sure Bulb was still the lynch when Nacho changed, and if he felt strongly about Bulbtown I can see a lot of motivation for switching because the plurality wouldn't be in effect.

In post 4952, Desperado wrote:
- What is your read on ffullisade and what specifically is scummy about Nacho's buddying?

I have a very slight town read on the slot, but ThAd had mentioned it as a vig target in previous nights, so maybe he's seeing something I'm not.
And Nacho saying he wants to connect (which I read as "detrmine whether they are town or scum") but buddying before that connection happens seems scummy.

I think when Nacho and Mollie say they want to connect, they've already townread each other.

In post 4952, Desperado wrote:
- "Ever-changing" Seanald read: He applied pressure, did meta research, and changed his mind. What's scummy?
My meta research found the opposite.

Go ahead and enlighten us then.

[Desperado]

Nacho is town and your case is bad and, consequently, unconvincing.

[Desperado]

He got a town role PM.

[Desperado]

He got a town role PM.

go get some original content.

Also why is it the first time it didn't read genuine to you, but the second time it did?

He asked for it in simple terms.

Was that a direct quote or something? It seemed new to me.

[Desperado]

Hopefully soon you'll meet a player where you treasure their friendship over some silly ingame fight that has no meaning.

That was new.

[Desperado]

And genuine as hell.

[Desperado]

CTD's 5006 and 5007 are fucking epiphany factories.

CTD, which would be more incriminating for the other IYO: a Nero scum flip or a Bulb scum flip?

[Desperado]

Nero also appears to have uncanny levels of insight into Bulba's thought process despite thinking he's scum =/

That would be quite a well-manufactured fight in that case, though it would explain why Nero's arguments against Bulb have been terrible.

That was my first thought as well, but neither of them has been making any sense for a while now and all of Bulb's previous quotewall wars eventually ended. Bulb is very calculating as scum (as the scum QT from his game with molla shows), I have no problem believing their fight is SvS.

[Desperado]

You obviously wasn't paying close attention to what I actually said. The original point was on what is perhaps Nero's scummiest post all game. In it he tries to deflect Khan's attention onto other people, even though it was later shown that Nero was incorrect in everything he asserted them to do. He then follows that up with, "Why am I not on your townlist" or in other words "Why do you not think I'm town? Give me towncred.". Nero tried, and it can be argued that he was successful, to actually divert that conversation onto other people, namely AK and Mollie, each of those circumstances being markedly different than the one we were discussing. After I pointed this out, he then proceeded to call me scummy for disagreeing with him. All this from a conversation that was originally about him trying to get the conversation moved elsewhere, something that the course of events proves he's adept at doing, and for then trying to gain towncred from it.

Don't tell me I wasn't paying attention, bulb. You've identified the exact same tell on several other people (myself included) and you were wrong about it every time. If you say Player X is scum for Y reason, and four other players are also doing Y, it is perfectly legitimate for Player X to question your inconsistency. It is not a deflection, it's a refutation of the point. Let's go back to the source shall we?

The original Nero post:

....really all in one page right in a row, someone is scum here. I lean nacho/Cephrir most.
This, but its also likely multiball so OS could still be scum.

+ its OS and I'd love to lynch that.

Khan's question:

its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Nero's "deflection:"

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

Bulb claims that none of that was true. Let's check.

multiball?

^900 posts before Nero's multiball comment

In post 1871, Slandaar wrote:
Well there are many explanations for this but they all conclude with; to gain what he thinks is a huge advantage.

Find him discussing that in a situation that does not involve 10 alive in an SK game as opposed to a Day start large.
He also never said it was a huge advantage for scum - he said it was dangerous for town in a SK present situation.
That's a questionable word twist on your part - clarify?

He didn't know it was an SK it was all theoretical just like this could have an SK or be Multiball etc, so your argument is what? he thinks its more beneficial in a large game where POE is useless over a game with 10 players and POE much more beneficial? (It also forced the SK if an SK into an awkward spot which I explained)

^600 posts before Nero's comment

Thors day is today

Actually, that was yesterday.

Nothing anyone else will be able to use for their benefit; the way he views Mac/thez is exactly how I have. And yes that makes him town unless its multiball.

When you said that you saw something that made Nacho town unless it was multiball, I was expecting something more substantial, not "Nacho has a similar scumread as me.". That's just weak.

^20 posts before Nero's comment.

Not only is your recollection that everyone he accused was innocent completely wrong, you were directly involved in it and quoted another, AND you've forgotten who was actually involved in the deflection, substituting AK and mollie (who they did argue about, but not for another 1000 posts or so) for slandaar and bacde. For the level of investment you are appear to have in this read, I find it scummy that you've conflated so many of your arguments with Nero with one another. I don't think it was ever real.

Unvote
Vote: Bulbazak

[Desperado]

I don't really care about the neighborhoods. For all I know you and Thad are scum together and are just claiming that you're a neighborhood.

That would be the best scum play of all time.

@ human destroyer: so you want me and peregrine lynched. Do you think that we are scum that claimed neighbor together -

therefore making us possibly the dumbest pair of scum-partners ever to play mafia?

Or do you think we are two scum from opposing factions, forced to live together in a neighborhood like the original fucking odd couple?

[Desperado]

I don't really care about the neighborhoods. For all I know you and Thad are scum together and are just claiming that you're a neighborhood.

That would be the best scum play of all time.

@ human destroyer: so you want me and peregrine lynched. Do you think that we are scum that claimed neighbor together -

therefore making us possibly the dumbest pair of scum-partners ever to play mafia?

Or do you think we are two scum from opposing factions, forced to live together in a neighborhood like the original fucking odd couple?

Sarcasm

Bullshit.

[Desperado]

I did read the first post. I was there, and I didn't take it sarcastically at the time at all.

And why would that make you dumb mafia? Has anyone indicated they'd be interested in lynching within a neighborhood that already has a scum flip from it?

[Desperado]

That's because in previous games, new information either came up, or a strong townread had to pry me off the other person and tell me to chill for awhile.

I was talking about this game. Off the top of my head you've gone toe to toe with Om and myself, and both of them ended eventually.

I think I can finally articulate my main issue with Bulb's play this game. There is no initiative. All of the "on to page 201s" when he's currently on page 200 are indicative of the fact that Bulb is playing as though he's removed from the ebb and flow of the gamestate. He's not a participant, he's a third party "objectively" commenting on the events of the game in what has now amounted to real time. And it just feels fake as hell and I can't shake it.

[Desperado]

I've just gotten consistently behind in this game, and if you haven't noticed, it moves fast. I always take it page by page when that far behind. I could give you examples from completed games, but you've read both of them.

Yeah, it made sense when you were like 40 pages behind. But you were still doing it even when you were only like a page behind. And you were still doing it two pages ago even though we've had two night phases since you're v/la IIRC. Surely you were caught up, and if not at a regular pace behind to where you don't need to continue the procession?

The point is that it doesn't really feel like you've ever been truly a participant. You look less and less like NY163 Bulb as the game goes on.

And I didn't see you use the "on to page XXX" gimmick in Amurika or NY 163. What games are you talking about/what did I miss?

[Desperado]

I think people are more willing to stand up for Nero than they are for Seanald, though. Does that change your mind at all?

I still think Nero is the more dangerous of the two, but if you can get a Seanald wagon going, I'll gladly switch. Which reminds me...

Desp, what did Seanald say to you last night to suddenly make him a town read again?

What are you talking about?

[Desperado]

I've had several times since the V/LA where I'll get busy or burnt out and not post anywhere on site for a couple of days. Given the pace of this game, that can be as much as 5-10 pages behind. And given that almost every page is full of complex and intricate arguments, even being behind even 3-4 pages can be a chore, especially if you're trying to respond to several of those posts. The whole reason why I do that version of catch up is so that everyone doesn't have to put up with incredibly huge walls. Those posts by themselves still end up being walls, but imagine if I didn't stop to make a new post every page or so. You'll probably be seeing more of those as the game progresses, just because of how fast it moves. Hopefully I can stay caught up on it, because my thoughts tend to be more up to date when that is the case.

In post 5066, Desperado wrote:
And I didn't see you use the "on to page XXX" gimmick in Amurika or NY 163. What games are you talking about/what did I miss?


Newbie 1333 - Scum. Got behind sometime during d1.

NY 163 - Town. Fell behind at one point during d1. Took me awhile to catch back up.

And these are only the games that are finished.

You aren't getting it man. There have been multiple times where you are making a post on, say, page 201 that will say at that bottom "on to page 200." This is like 100 pages after you initially got behind. And it's now become, in my eyes, and easy way for you to appear like you're contributing when the majority of the things that you say have already been covered by someone who was there when the post you're responding to was actually relevant.

P-edit: Desp, you read Seanald as scum yesterday. When this day phase started, you didn't vote him and have shown no suspicion toward him whatsoever. I take it that this means that he is a townread again? What did he say during the night phase to change your mind?

And I take it as me having other priorities. If I have to fall back on that case I feel pretty confident in my ability to see it through to completion so I'm spending my time doing other things.

Why did you phrase the question like that if you were completely making it up?

[Desperado]

I've told you why I've been making posts like that. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore what I said, that's your call. You'd be in good company.

You have told me. That doesn't change the fact that there's scum motivation for doing it that way.

Completely making what up? I thought you had legitimately dropped your Seanald-scum read, as I had expected you to push it hard today given your zeal for it yesterday.

You said "What did Seanald say to you last night to make him a townread today?"

^That's you making something up. Why would you ask the question like that rather than just ask me straight up what I think about him now? You brought it up in an accusatory manner like you'd caught me with my pants down, which doesn't make any sense since you think I'm town.

<<< Ah, a refreshing change of pace; been a while since I had to deleted a double-post. >>>

[Desperado]

So...everything points to Thad's claim be fake but you're going to trust your initial impressions anyway?

[Desperado]

5096

- Maybe, maybe not. But, it didn't take place. I gave my full list of players, my positions on them, and why I would want them dead/alive. I got a list of people he was thinking of shooting and a CTD read. I would think that if he thought I was town, we'd talk, and if he thought I was scum he'd bait me/draw out more info/etc.

I'm not sure I follow this. Are you trying to say something about how you think ThAd perceives you?

5097

-

Indeed. I feel like you're oversimplifying what I'm saying all the way through this discussion, as well as cast nuanced statements into black/white, yes/no terms.

I'm actually trying to figure out how he perceives me, and if he's the vig. If he calls me scum, then I can expect to die or at least not bother QT posting. If he thinks I'm town I'd expect talking & scumhunting. If he's unsure, I'd expect talking and scumhunting.
If he's scum, then I'd expect he's not the vig. I was hoping to have this proved conclusively last night, but it didn't happen.
Still sticking with my initial replace-in impressions of town, but now trying to reconcile his motivations as town vig with my expectations.

I want it simplified, so your stance can definitively be determined for posterity.

Like I don't think you meant to do it but this is the best case for Thadscum that's been presented all game.

[Desperado]

By eliminating nuance.

[Desperado]

PV.

Seanald.

^That makes me angry.

[Desperado]

Since when is lurking scum more dangerous to the town than scum that makes waves? Nero can do more damage with his influence than Seanald can, because all Seanald is doing is following others and staying in the shadows. Lurking scum can be countered effectively if identified. Scum such as Nero is more difficult to take care of, because they act like an infection in the entire organism.

Posts like this are far more likely to be coming from town than scum.

Town wants to take out the big threats as opposed to the small fries usually because it's easier to have stronger conviction on active players than it is on less active players (more to go on v less to go on).

I understand when he says that he's not willing to jump back into neighborhoods again today, and I don't see the scum motivation in not wanting to jump back into neighborhoods again.

When using scum is in a certain group of players, it's pretty fucking easy to use that as extra ammunition for your scumreads (not only is X scummy, but he was on the lynchwagon yesterday!) and sort of chainlynch through the group. Bulba wanting to back away from that makes sense.

Bulba backing away from that to protect Seanald??? Doesn't really make sense. Bulba's push on Seanald, if they were scum together, shows that he doesn't give a shit about bussing him. Why does he suddenly want to protect him now? Oh wait. There isn't a real reason for that.

@ Italics: Perhaps, but I don't think Nero has nearly the amount of cache that Bulb is giving him credit for here.

@ Bold: The scum motivation for not wanting to jump back into the neighborhoods is that scumBulb can only mislynch there so many times without incriminating a teammate.

@ Underline: Yeah, it makes sense for scumBulb. Why is townBulb shying away from following through with his neighborhood spec? Why was he so gung ho to get a neighborhood flip if he was going to withdraw from that line of thought after he got it?
Summary: I had the complete opposite reaction to that post.

[Desperado]

Where the hell is bacde?

<<< Prodded yesterday is where he is. >_> >>>

[Desperado]

Re: Nacho and Rena...yeah that exchange was atrocious.

[Desperado]

In particular I do not see town adding "I've got the buddying Bulbs (possibly) thing" at the end.

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

Weren't you just saying a moment ago that you were still for Seanald-scum?

Yeah, and I'm angry that Nacho reads him as scum but was nowhere to be found yesterday when I was trying to lynch him.

oh and Desp but he's prob just derpy town like in WWE and Rena but she is scum too.

the hell? Of the two of us you were easily the derpier one in WWE. Remember when you gladiatorated two townies, one of which was a PR that caught scum the same night? If I had been voted out instead of Mastin the town probably loses.

[Desperado]

Yeah, and I'm angry that Nacho reads him as scum but was nowhere to be found yesterday when I was trying to lynch him.

and here we are with another opportunity to lynch him and instead you're trying to lynch bulbazak.
why not let me make up for my mistakes and lynch him now?

I'm holding you to this tomorrow, because...

Serious question: How isn't Bulba hammered already?

scum buddies don wanna bus dude.

ThAdmiral - 1 (Baezu)
Nero Cain - 1 (Bulbazak)
Cephrir - 1 (PeregrineV)
Seanald - 1 (penguin_alien)

Not Voting - 1 (Amethyst Kitty)

kind of all over the place there.

^there isn't a big enough for this shit. Seanald put on a nice show in the QT overnight and appeared to have committed himself to the game, and then he does nothing but sheep a post I made about Bulb and whatever these two posts were meant to do.

Unvote
Vote: Rena

[Desperado]

We can lynch seanald tomorrow.

If you're confident enough to proclaim that thad's fake claiming why are you voting seanald?

[Desperado]

^ What he said in my defense.

Hm, the only way I could see both myself and ThAd being blocked is if either both scum factions have a roleblocker or if one scum and the town have one.

With regards to scum numbers, I've been thinking 1/4 of the game are scum just because that's how I form games.

I still want to know what you'll do tomorrow when I flip town.

Do you typically not pay attention to games where you're a claimed town PR that hasn't produced any results yet?

[Desperado]

Desp, why not vote for Sean today?

Because everything Rena has said today has looked fake/like she isn't reading the thread, despite her having an extremely powerful role that entirely depends on her ability to read the game and predict the scum's behavior. Her posts don't give any indication that she's capable of that, or even interested in doing so...which means she's faking it.

[Desperado]

Desp, why not vote for Sean today?

Because everything Rena has said today has looked fake/like she isn't reading the thread, despite her having an extremely powerful role that entirely depends on her ability to read the game and predict the scum's behavior. Her posts don't give any indication that she's capable of that, or even interested in doing so...which means she's faking it.

[Desperado]

How about you provide some context for that? When he attacked you is pretty relevant.

[Desperado]

Nope.

[Desperado]

UNVOTE

VOTE: Seanald

mollie is going to yell at you all for letting Rena get by another day.

Um, what? You've been calling Seanald town all game. What changed?

[Desperado]

@ Bulb: I'm 95% sure Nero was being sarcastic

@ Ffullisade: Better late than never I guess. We could have avoided the slandaar/bulb train wreck if you two and Nacho hadn't derailed my original seanald wagon to begin with.

Unvote
Vote: Seanald

[Desperado]

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

[Desperado]

You think he's red scum Bulb? Because I'm pretty sure I was wrong about one of CTD/ffullisade and that they are red scum

[Desperado]

Paraphrasing:

Says I'm a town read and he wants to work with me. Thinks Cephrir is scum and that he "hastily" came to Bulb's rescue, which reads like partners to him. He also says Slandaar's townflip didn't change his town read on CTD so he won't be voting him.

Then he says HD has been invisible all game.

He can't read AK. Had a "strong" townread on them D1 and D2, but couldn't understand what they were doing and the hydra is making it difficult to get a base on them. But he still leans town even though they "AtEd the shit" out of him

Then he posted the Slandaar wagon and noted that Ceph and AK were both in the middle, and that he has Nero as town

Then he said that penguin alien is a "cheeky fucker" who didn't join a major wagon D3 and was just posturing. Penguin is "super scummy"

[Desperado]

@ CTD: Because you both poopooed my D3 Seanald case and then wordlessly joined the wagon yesterday.

[Desperado]

I didn't poopoo your D3 case against Seanald. Now that he has flipped, it's easy to see that it was good, but that doesn't change the fact that at the time, the strength of your argument didn't measure up against others. It almost feels like you're taking this as a personal sleight.

I acknowledged at the time that him not defending against your case was actually scummy and I admittedly didn't follow up on this amidst all the hubbub. Mea culpa.

I joined the wagon wordlessly because no words were needed after his claim.

What are your thoughts on yesterday's Rena wagon?

Not a personal slight, just a conclusion that I drew when comparing Seanald's D3 and D4 wagons. It's not really something I'm interested in pursuing right now.

Re: Rena wagon, your analysis seems sound. I'd probably vote Pere with you, not sure about baezu.

Explain AK-town to me.

[Desperado]

Paraphrase the conversation please

[Desperado]

Obviously I don't remember you mentioning the conversation before so a quote, link, or page number would have been a more effective response than a bunch of ellipses

[Desperado]

Anyone interested now?

Nope

[Desperado]

I'm not really interested in hammering Pere

[Desperado]

/woosh?

[Desperado]

Mastin's passive aggressive pokes are the best.

<<< Or worst. Depends on the receiver's opinion; there are some who are not appreciative of them, and not unjustifiably so. I'm still trying to find that balance. >>>

He claimed on what, D2? He's pretty clearly either scum or scum lynchbait. Either way they won't waste a NK on him or they would have already.

[Desperado]

@ mod: the pirate mollie half of this hydra is /out. fery may want to continue.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: HD

[Desperado]

Why do you want someone to explain PV-scum? He isn't getting lynched anymore

[Desperado]

Agreed, I just don't think it's relevant right now

[Desperado]

Desperado, what's your take on lynching in or out of the neighborhoods?

The same as it's always been honestly--don't care. I'd still like to go back to AK (where are you?) and Baezu destroyed my bacde townread. I have the same concerns about a Thad lynch as you do, and "PoE" when we don't have access to Mastin's set-up is just circlejerking.

Is Bulb/CTD TvT?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: CTD

[Desperado]

Here's all the Blue Scum reads lists highlighted with flips. Thezmon's is the most interesting and I think it means that Bacde was right about Nacho the whole time--he really is the last blue scum.

Spoiler: Ryu reads

Om is leaning town, he has interest for town to move in the right way. Is looking for direct intent.

Bacde is most likely town. Goofy but town.

Oversoul town if role is legit

Thor still dumbtown.

CrashTextDummi leaning scum,

he is caught up with Oversoul the same reason why Nacho is scum. The one difference is how mechanical and simple he is taking his reads like his post #770.
Nacho has been tunneling a read and shown he has never tried to read into intent, he has shown he wants a lynch.

If you aren't listed I don't have a read/I forgot what it was. so null until they gain my interest. Or I just didn't read it, forgot how a 20+ man game was like.

Spoiler: Thezmon reads

Alright, I'm a bit burnt out from reading about 25-26 pages, so I'll pick it up later (as in, in an hour or two probably). I suppose I'll give a general list of my reads on everyone. I'm not going to include a basis for them, and probably won't provide it right now because I've only read half the game thus far and will probably have another 5-10 pages by the time I read page 54. It's not in any particular order.

TOWN

ArcAngel

BeautyAndTheBeast

Cephrir

Slandaar

DLG
Bulbazak

Red Ryu

Amethyst Kitty

NULL

CrashTextDummie

Nero Cain

Bacde

Seanald

Om The Destroyer

Kublai Khan

Baby Spice

Desperado

Syryana

Kublai Khan

SCUM

fuzzybutternut

Oversoul

Nachomomma8

ActionDan

EddieFenix

Thor665

Just about all of my reads are pretty weak. I'll have a good feeling for the game hopefully before I actually hit this page.

I AM CAUGHT UP

Well, actually, I skipped 5-10 pages somewhere around 30 and 35, but I was able to get back in the loop. Sorry if you're disappointed with that, but I'm tired as hell from both school and reading these last 57 pages.

So, without further ado, here are my reads*:

TOWN:
[

ArcAngel,

BeautyAndTheBeast,

Slandaar

, DLG, Bulbazak, Amethyst Kitty,

Nero Cain

,

CrashTextDummie

,

Red Ryu

,

Bacde

]

NULL:
[

Seanald

,

Kublai Khan

,

Desperado

,

Syryana

, Nachomomma8,

Cephrir

]

MAFIA:
[

fuzzybutternut, Oversoul, EddieFenix, Thor665,

Om The Destroyer, Baby Spice,

Hanzo_5

]

*The order of the players is in no way indicative of the strength of my reads.

So, I'll now elaborate on reads that people want elaboration on, but I'm not going to elaborate on everything purely because there are 24 players I have to read and it's even more work and I'm tired.

Here's some notes from the pad of Thez:
--For the longest time I had Nacho penned as scum, and almost jumped onto his wagon for mainly the whole Oversould fiasco. However, his bout with the reads and wanting to lynch Desperado turned my head and convinced me that he might not be who he says he is. It is notable that every single person on that wagon I have as town (Desperado is null).
--Bacde is so obviously town right now, so if you think he's scum you should probably quit this game. BatB is pretty town too.
--Baby Spice is strangely very lurky. Also not quite so... worried. For lack of a better word/phrase.

Oh, and I felt I should address this:

@Thezmon

Your reasonless list is nothing but filler. To paraphrase you, you said "Hey im here and im doing stuff, Im not done yet so it looks like im not doing anything".

Im bringing this to light because I see it as fluff and everyone else should too.

I dont know why your fluffy. But I dont care for it. Your life no linger matters to me. Plz fix that.

It's too bad I don't care. Maybe you should try putting something non-fluff yourself instead of calling out other fluff. My post had more content than yours. Your recent posts don't do much justice for you IME either.

Alright, so now I'm going to wrap up this post with this:
VOTE: fuzzy

I don't like your overall mentality with the game at this point. You've been really dodgy this game. I don't find any value in any of your posts. Your reads are safer than OS's information was. Gut read? Really. Develop something. Try. Have AP Exams? Cool story bro, so do I. In fact, I have an exam on Thursday. You don't see me dodging the game and making useless third-party comments.

I feel fuzzy's gone unnoticed, and you should all notice him through my post. Cephrir's confrontation with him was a start. Oh, and I want a reads list from him too.

Well, I'm a L-1, it appears.

Claim:

Universal Backup

Reads:
TOWN:

Slandaar

CTD

Nacho

AA9

Kublai Khan
Nero Cain
EddieFenix
Bacde
Thor665

Bulbazak

NULL:
PA
PV

Seanald

ffullisade

SCUM:

Haylen
ThAdmiral

Om the Destroyer

Desperado

Cephrir

Amethyst Kitty

Spoiler: CTD reads

I would have preferred doing this after everyone was accounted for, but I'm itching to move on and Seanald might need to be replaced.

My general rule of thumb when analyzing reactions to a D1 massclaim suggestion is that the most likely scum reaction is no reaction. This applies to the following people in this game:
-BeautyAndTheBeast
-DLG
-

Mac

-

Nero Cain

-Bacde
-BabySpice

There are several scum in this list and I believe

very

strongly in this tell: While it may be up for debate whether D1 massclaim generally benefits town or scum more, there is absolutely no questioning whatsoever that scum despise the concept and would rather not not dwell on the issue. You'd think that it's no bother to them to drop a line on the subject, but I've seen a majority of scum outright ignore it in every game I've seriously pushed the idea in:
- In Purified Mafia, I divided the game into two piles based on this tell, and 3/4 of the remaining scum landed in the scum pile. Just one (StrangerCoug) slipped through the cracks, and only because I was lenient in applying the tell.
- In Team Mafia, literally every member of the town reacted, while all the scum didn't. If this game hadn't happened in the experimental phase of me making this play, I could have called the entire scum team on D1 (this is the game that compelled Glork to try it out elsewhere)
- In TV U-Pick, the entire scum team also fell into this tell

B&B is the worst offender in this game, because they've been very active throughout. The rest is mostly people who were late to the game or undercontributing, which doesn't mitigate the tell at all in my mind. Massclaim discussion has been one the main points of interest so far and should warrant a comment from any and all town players.

--------------

I have never personally seen scum support D1 massclaim. The following players did:
-Nachomamma8
-

Desperado

-Om the Destroyer
-

Thor

-

ActionDan

-

fuzzy

Roughly in order of how strongly they supported it. I debated putting fuzzy on this list, because as has been pointed out, he didn't actually give his own opinion on whether we should massclaim, only stating that he wanted popcorn if we did massclaim. Nachomamma, who arguably pushed the idea as hard as me or harder, would be playing a

very

gutsy game if he's scum in my opinion and is therefore very likely town. But really this whole list has a strong chance of being all town with the possible exception of fuzzy.

-------------

Opposing D1 massclaim is the most frequent pro-town reaction I've seen by virtue of most scum not reacting at all. The list for this game is as follows:
-Bulbazark

-ArcAngel9
-Oversoul

-

Cephrir

-

Slandaar

-AmethystKitty
-

Syriana

-

RedRyu

-Eddie Fenix

Bulbazark and ArcAngel reacted quite passionately to the idea, which I associate with town play. I've seen it only once from inexperienced scum and strictly from town otherwise. That makes them both town reads. Oversoul is a special case I'll get to in another post, the rest go in the null-leaning-town pile pending closer examination.

-----------

That leaves only

Rondar

and

Seanald

unaccounted for.

i don't think ThAd is lying about his target.

But you think ThAd should be lynched if he keeps getting blocked.

CTD, what are your reads?

Scum:

Nero

Bulba

Higher likelihood of being scum:

Seanald

PV
Nacho

Lower likelihood of being scum:

ThAd
Despo

Human Destroyer
Penguin Alien

Cephrir

Town:

Rena
Bacde

AK
Ffullisade

Based on interactions, I suspect the top end of this list to be populated mostly by red scum. Probably some blue scum in the lower likelihood pile. ThAd has been bumped down because his fake-out actually makes some sense as a town play. Cephrir has been bumped down because I think his play has looked rather town recently. Rest of those players I haven't really been paying a lot of attention to in while.

And here are Cephrir's reads. I have one really outrageous conclusion about them, but I want to hear from others before I share it.

Spoiler: Cephrir's reads

Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie

- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG

- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar

- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer

- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8

- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain

- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix

- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty

- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac

- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde

- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu

- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak

- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut

- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul

- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast

- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9

- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado

Baby Spice

Seanald

ActionDan
Rondar

Actually, B&B and AA9 aren't really in my sights anymore. I have B&B as null, maybe nullscum, for now because mollie has been an improvement for the slot. AA9 is scummy, but I've decided to give her a pass for Day 1 because this is typical of her day 1 play. I've said both these things before. I'd say Oversoul ranks right behind fuzzy at present.

Let's talk about everyone I can remember saying I even remotely disliked at all ever.

Macslot

- fine now, thezmon is doing fine.
Bulba- liked him since he stopped arguing with Om

Thor

?- Had some slight suspicion at some point I think. Basically null.

RR

- still a bit on the scummy side but he disappeared.
You- possibly the slightest scumread I've had all game. Still basically null.

Desperado

?- this case is currently under review.
BS- still a bit scummy, needs to post.

Oversoul

- currently in the back seat

fuzzy

- I am voting this guy
B&B- see text of post

AA9

- same

That's 11. I'd say anyone who hasn't had at least a slight ping from 11 different players by now isn't paying attention, and I believe that's everyone I've so much as commented "I didn't like X post" for, which doesn't mean they're a scumread.

I'm not sure what your case consists of anymore. Apparently I'm fencesitting while also having too many suspects for you? There's still the alleged Nacho bandwagon vote I was going to make just because I said I wanted to look at him again, and if that point makes you feel good I won't bother continuing to argue it (but you're wrong).

The following is a brief summary of each slot's interactions with Ryu.

Mac/thezmon

: Mac never does anything in the entire game except vote Ryu. zmon had a town read.

CTD

: minimal interactions.

Nacho

: Constantly responds to RR posts. Would say coaching if it weren't for other stuff. Decent-sized fight ensues that makes me think they probably aren't buddies. but then backs off and returns Ryu to nullread. Still think Nacho isn't bluescum because of RR's posts.

DLG/PV

: DLG suspects Ryu early but this evaporates. PV never mentions RR.

Nero

: No interaction except "cop this guy". No way.

Bacde

: Whiteknights and chainsaws Ryu several times but not bluescum, Ryu sheeped him way too hard.

Eddie

: Null read early... nothing else ever.

Bulbazak

: "If Ryu is scum so is Bacde"... well at least he's consistent even if the reasons for this statement changed entirely. Votes Ryu for his attack on OS; has backed off pairing theory today.

Thor

: The notorious post 76 (wants to lynch Ryu pregame). Condescending wallfight. Pushes Ryu until B&B wallfight, then later returns to RR. Ends day with Ryu on 'scummish'. I am not convinced this couldn't come from scumbuddies.

Desp

: Small attack in 539, 932 could be prodding a buddy. Scumread ex machina in 2374.

BS/PA

: Starts on Ryu vote, eventually switches off then ignores Ryu. Points out Nacho was a counterwagon to Ryu (I examine this later).

Slandaar

: Rather than chainsawing against a specific player, generally attacks everyone on the wagon. Multiple times. Otherwise ignores Ryu.

Seanald

: No mentions.

AD/Hanzo/Thad

: No mentions from any of them.

fuzzy/Haylen

: The posts I quoted in 2842 are it basically. "Leaning scum" in 2534.

KK

: Votes Ryu in mid-catch-up; asks for stronger case (b/c he has Ryu as second strongest scumread I think), strongly worded point against Ryu's cult leader joke (and he was right, go figure).

AK

: Consistently suspicious of RR (always second or third suspect all day). Not necessarily anything wrong with this, I suppose.

AA9

: Big long readpost with no mention of RR into vote RR seems weirder now but she's still town.

This is just based on bluescumness-if-scum and isn't really a scumlist (i.e. just because I say someone is a likely scumbuddy doesn't actually mean I think they're scum, though there is a correlation). First category only is strongest-weakest, others have no order.

Likely RR Scumbuddies

Haylen
Slandaar
Desperado
Thor

Penguin = Peregrine

Unlikely RR Scumbuddies

Nacho

Nero
Bacde
Kublai

No Conclusion

Mac/thezmon

CTD

Eddie

Bulbazak

Seanald

AD/Hanzo/Thad

AK

AA9

We interrupt these quote walls (where, incidentally, Thor is winning by leagues) to bring you a quick mostly-off-the-top-of-my-head reads list. I can explain as necessary.

Town

Bacde
Kublai Khan

Nacho = Om^
Bulba

CTD

Leaning town

Thor^

thezmon

Eddie = Nero*
AA9

PV (DLG)

Null

Thadmiral

Seanald

AK*

Lean scum

PA

Desperado^
Slandaar^

Scum

ffullisade

Haylen^

* = plan to examine in greater depth, feel like my opinions are outdated
^ = on my connections-with-bluescum list

Buddy analysis, part deux

Again I'll be ignoring my overall town/scumreads to what extent I can.

CTD- Light suspicion of thezmon early D1 and (lol) said he was "clearly not scum with RR". No conclusion.
Nacho- has thez as 'strong town' early on, later votes him. Could be blue.
PV- nothing
Nero- not much interaction, but among the earliest thez voters. With RR dead, I don't think there's any chance blue would have voted him until his death became inevitable. So I'm giving Nero a free pass.
Bacde- ahahahaha no
Bulb- not much interaction
Desp- big argument with thez + myself about essentially nothing. I don't think thez would have gone this far attacking his scumbuddy.
PA- defended thez after his claim; end of 3279 sounds potentially like someone who helped thez craft his claim (doesn't see the glaring issues with it, possibly wasn't paying attention when thez botched it). Likely partner, because if you're PA, who is widely suspected and grade A useless, if you're scum with only thez, your only play is to try to save him.
Sland- Light scumread on thez eventually, suggests lynching him long before anyone else does, which I would think was possibly safe bussing except he then presents a somewhat compelling if brief argument. Good point wrt those who were on the wagon and got off, I'll keep that in mind.
Sean- nothing, shocker
ThAd- Maybe-fake rage about thez's continued survival (this is after his death is inevitable). Also that one Hanzo post. Analysis today based on the premise that scum must have bussed thezmon is kind of bluey.
Rena- fuzzy and thez has a small but pissy argument about his activity level (frustrated scumbuddy?). Rena asked someone why they were voting thez at one point and then never mentioned him again.
KK- initially hesitant about Bacde's case but ultimately becomes an early voter.
AK- has thez listed as town, but doesn't know why. Not sure I see the scum motivation is jumping on thez then immediately jumping off because they apparently needed to ask me a question.
ffull- effectively an early voter
Om- Defended thez after claim with suggestion that he should live for now. Don't like it.
AA9- suspected thez early; his explosive reaction = not scumbuddies.

Likely thezmon buddies

p_a

ThAd

Om
Nacho

Rena

Unlikely

Bacde
Desperado
KK
AA9

ffull

Nero

No conclusion

CTD

PV
Bulb

Sland

Sean

AK

Considering thezmon's posts and both of my blue lists, I conclude that the most likely blue scum are Rena, Penguin, Om, ThAd and Slandaar.
Bacde, Nero, Kublai and AA9 are pretty much clear of being blue in my book.

Strong town

Bacde

CTD

Nacho
Bulb

Likely town

Desp

ffull
HD
PA

???
AK

Thad

Leaning scum

Nero

PV

Scum

Seanald

Rena

Town

Nacho

Desp

Bulba
ffull

Probably town

CTD

PA (Cephrir says blue)

Scummy

Baezu

HD (Cephrir says red)

Thad

PV (Cephrir says blue)
AK (Cephrir says red)

Admittedly my blue colorings at this point are basically "I don't think this person is red".

Vote: Nacho

[Desperado]

because nacho-blue scum would bus the living fuck out of his living competent partner out of the blue.

That's a really odd way to put what happened yesterday.

With 2 votes on CTD, 5 on HD:

Why are scum given the benefit of a townie to talk to when figuring out their night actions? I'm not sure how strong a point that is and how that would really effect the balance in the long run. And if we are shorter on PRs than is usual, wouldn't it be better balance-wise to pair a townie with the vig?

neighbors sorting each other out is an interaction that is older than time itself.
townie chilling with a vig is new and strange and throws things off balance a bit, especially considering i don't see CTD close to anything like scum. but now we have that nice sexy pretty much confirmation on ThAd, so I'm guessing you're right on this front too.

Then Penguin, Baezu, and myself all expressed interest in a CTD lynch and it became pretty clear that we were going to lynch within the neighborhoods. At that point you didn't really have any choice but to bus him, and CTD "having to regroup" + you "loving to hear it" and going so far as to tell people to wait before hammering so that he can get them out are enough to link you two.

You didn't do anything even close to "bussing the living fuck" out of him.

[Desperado]

There were less than 2 days until deadline when I moved onto him. No one moved until I did.

That doesn't negate anything I said. You still didn't move onto him until the HD wagon had fully stalled and three other people had expressed interest in his lynch + we decided collectively to lynch in the neighborhoods.

[Desperado]

I don't know what HD is yet.

Thez reads make you blue scum because in his initial reads list he had Ryu in his town pile, CTD in his null, and then 5 flipped townies as scum and you.

After his full catchup you are now listed as null with HD and penguin moved from null to scum. His justification is terrible:

--For the longest time I had Nacho penned as scum, and almost jumped onto his wagon for mainly the whole Oversould fiasco. However, his bout with the reads and wanting to lynch Desperado turned my head and convinced me that he might not be who he says he is. It is notable that every single person on that wagon I have as town (Desperado is null).

Because your D1 push on me blew ass.

Finally in his last reads post you and CTD are listed as town with 7 dead town and Bulb.

Mainly it's that initial reads list though.

[Desperado]

Do you think there is a chance of me being red scum?

Not really. AK pushing you hard as red scum is making me pretty damn sure you aren't red.

Desp, I love you but Nacho is red scum, not blue scum

See above.

[Desperado]

Desperado
Bulbazak
PeregrineV

penguin_alien

ffullisade
Human Destroyer
Nacho

Amethyst Kitty

Town to scum if it wasn't obvious.

If it's 5v3 why aren't we NLing? I don't expect anyone left to claim PR so it's MYLO with no chance to stop the kill?...

[Desperado]

We don't know how many scum are left and it's multiball so it won't change even/odd.

OK but if we ML today it could be 2v2v1 tomorrow which is a town loss? If we NL we're guaranteed one more day with the possibility of a cross kill.

[Desperado]

Also, why is Bulbazak as town as he is to you?

Don't think he's red scum and CTD's interactions with him didn't read like scum theater to me. What's your read on him?

[Desperado]

Didn't see much of anything tying him to Ceph or Seanald. What're you seeing?

[Desperado]

Nacho I'm confused. What happened to this?

That means that it would be possible for me, HD, AK, Baezu, and Cephrir can all go down and if there's one scum in there and somehow not two you somehow get to take a dip into the town core 4 which shouldn't be ffullisade or Bulbazak under any circumstances.

You said again today that Bulb was in your 4 strong townreads.

[Desperado]

Wonder what the crazy percentage is that Bulba is BP?

...

0?

Why would there be two BPs in the game?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Human Destroyer

[Desperado]

I don't know how but something just clicked for me

[Desperado]

now that's commitment ladies and gentlemen