NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Desperado]

I am dumb, present, and currently busy, which means I will not be able to re-read this thread until late tonight at the earliest.

Can anyone summarize the proceedings thus far?

[Desperado]

I support a mass claim.

[Desperado]

I support a mass claim.

What? are you serious?
Explain how the mass claims helps on DAY 1? freaking day 1?
you realize, scum going to lie to your face.....and it won't make a freaking difference...

For all the reasons that Crashtest listed in his big post proposing the plan in the first place. Did you miss that?

And yes the scum are going to lie to us...how is that any different than lying to us about their role on day five?

[Desperado]

Because "scum" in many people's definition means anyone with an anti-town win condition. "Mafia" typically just refers to one anti-town faction. I also don't understand how, or why, beast made that differentiation.

[Desperado]

It's also kind of annoying that Nero was clearly trying to understand where Beast was coming from with her read in 510 and Beast just totally ignored it to make fun of him.

[Desperado]

Maybe it'll help if I ask: Beast, what specifically is Nero doing that tells him as Indy as opposed to straight mafia?

[Desperado]

Because I was in the thread and his intent was pretty clear.

And are you serious? Beast said "you read as indie." That's as distinct as you can get. Not scum, not mafia, not dirty, "indie."

[Desperado]

Ryu's semantic gymnastics in 423are also really bad. Relevant =/= useful. Also why defend him and then include "if he is telling the truth"? Why the fuck would he lie about that?

And the addendum sentence is just clunky, wooden, and over the top.

I still haven't caught up completely but I'll be sure to pay particular attention to Ryu as I do.

[Desperado]

That's preemptively cautious :/

Which comes from a town mindset, right?

[Desperado]

I was actually wondering why nero is not talking about one of his utility craps.. Thanks.. but i have no interest being your PL target today.

I wasn't suggesting that we lynch you. I was just saying that if we did then you'd be a utility a lynch.

Though if Angel does flip scum I'd be very very tempted to lynch B&TB for lukewarmly calling me scum and might be a chainsaw.

jesus christ nero,

(1)indies are not scum.

you were

(2)reading as an indie at the time fucking get over it.

(3)on my homesite we treat indies

differently

@ arc - what are you talking about, the last few posts were by majiffy

1) Yes they are.
2) This is not an answer to the question "How was I reading as Independent?"
3) This is Mafiascum, not wherever you come from. Justifying your bad play with "that's how we play on (insert other site)" is not likely to be effective.

[Desperado]

I was actually wondering why nero is not talking about one of his utility craps.. Thanks.. but i have no interest being your PL target today.

I wasn't suggesting that we lynch you. I was just saying that if we did then you'd be a utility a lynch.

Though if Angel does flip scum I'd be very very tempted to lynch B&TB for lukewarmly calling me scum and might be a chainsaw.

jesus christ nero,

(1)indies are not scum.

you were

(2)reading as an indie at the time fucking get over it.

(3)on my homesite we treat indies

differently

@ arc - what are you talking about, the last few posts were by majiffy

1) Yes they are.
2) This is not an answer to the question "How was I reading as Independent?"
3) This is Mafiascum, not wherever you come from. Justifying your bad play with "that's how we play on (insert other site)" is not likely to be effective.

1) no aren't
2) he didn't ask
3) my approach to indies will still probably be the same regardless of what site I am on. I try to work with indies if they have a town compatible win condition
4) fuck off

In this context, where the only third party is a Serial Killer, then indies are scum. Forget what you think you know because there is no such thing as a town friendly indy in this game.

"He didn't ask" are you serious?

But what's Indie supposed to mean?

Tell me why do I read as independent as opposed to scum? Can't hunt your own team?

So Mollie, why did you call me a 3rd party?

ok...I'm still not getting it....why 3rd pary instead of teamscum?

Your 3rd point is mindboggling. You're going to approach 3rd parties the same way you always have, and work with them if they have a town compatible win condition, when that

literally isn't possible?

There are no town friendly 3rd parties in this game. Do I need to put this in its own post or what?

Finally, what's with the hostility?

[Desperado]

Vote: DLG

His early game had him in my townpile (#200 especially), but his series of posts starting at #490 and going straight through to #494 really pinged my scumdar. I'm going to quote them again, bold some interesting things, and then make my comments at the end.

around p5. "how", it was the way that rofl reacted to majiffy (didn't I already explain this?). the replace out is null, I don't think it is alignment indicative. rofl looked town to me cos of how he reacted not because he got all dramatic and went ahead and replaced out.

Alright, that makes sense. In particular, I was curious about your post 114. I was trying to figure out why you were extending the olive branch to roflcopter. It makes sense if you were already leaning Town on him.

Perpetuating?

I didn't see anything scummy, ergo I didn't act. When I did see something scummy, I did act. How is that in any form

perpetuating?

Consider yourself officially on my shitlist.

Yes,

perpetuating

. Your first 11 posts were all bullshit banter. That means you were keeping the pre-game stuff non-game related. Perpetuating it, even. The question was why you shifted gears when someone else changed the tenor of the conversation.

You didn't see anything scummy, fine. But, your posts weren't designed to find anything scummy, either.

So, again, I ask, why did you shift your style when someone else changed the game environment?

Why are you trying to superimpose scumminess onto my play? You'll note the parenthetical word - presumably - in the quote. From my POV, he was calling me scum for voting Cephrir.

Sure, I noted your use of the word presumably. I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, so it may have been easier for me to see the connections after the fact, but your interpretation struck me because you had the cause and effect reversed. Your later post 105 makes me believe you really were just confused, not intentionally misconstruing the chain of events.

All things considered, I think you're slot isn't scum. The answers both of your heads gave regarding potential scum motivation in your posts seem consistent with a Town mindset much more than a scum agenda.

Your Cephrir push is weak. His suspicions towards your slot make sense from a Town point-of-view. Couple that with the following:

Since not everyone in the game is tunneling me, you're gonna have to actually debunk my arguments rather than laugh at them. Or, just keep standing by yourself in a field yelling about how I'm scum. That's fine too.

This demonstrates a belief in the things he's saying and I can totally see where someone with a Town role PM would react this way to your cutesy derision.

And:

I'm gonna do my best to ignore you for a few pages, as I think I've made my position clear enough and I'm sick of arguing about exact wording and how arguments argued with arguments on arguments.

On Ryu: My initial reaction was agreement with HD (that Ryu had voted Thor arbitrarily for what he himself claimed was a dumbtell), but then I went back and read it and the posts after that one were better.

This reads significantly more like Town fed up with an argument that had spiralled way out of original context than it does like a scum retreating from a fight they feel they've lost. Plus, the double check on Red Ryu vs Thor665 seems to indicate someone who is interested in finding things out, not just casting aspersions where convenient.

tl;dr
BeautyAndTheBeast is likely town and needs to get over the push on someone else (Cephrir) who is likely Town.

Uh, DlG, when Mara gets back.. You will have an answer to 199 as we have some unsure people that we want to poke at.
Although, the first one was a joke. I'm not sure why you are taking it seriously.
___

The Mollie/Jiffy might be town. Mollie part feels town to me at the moment.

___

I'm not sure what to make of AA9 well the wagon on OS is fast and might be a QL. It's just off because I don't feel as if she's looking for scum.

AA who's your biggest scum read and your biggest town read?

Me missing the joke is probably attributable to tone deafness on my part. I'm not part of the clique, so the inside jokes may go over my head.

I'm still curious about how you can needle at the pirate mollie head of BeautyAndTheBeast for ignoring your question, and at the same time declare you intend to leave BeautyAndTheBeast alone in lieu of better targets.

I pretty much agree with you on

BeautyAndTheBeast being likely Town,

and agree with your assessment of ArcAngel9. Hey, since I'm Town, and we agree, you must be Town, too. Just ask Beast.

Do you have enough experience playing with ArcAngel9 to say whether this is unusual play for her?

Because, I sense she's more part of the group of players familiar to each other. I'd like to know if you think she's just coming across as scummy as a natural part of her playstyle/personality.

Being town does not equal doing the smart thing nor that they have the right idea.

Yeah, this is dated, and all, especially since I no longer believe you're scum. My original problem was that calling someone "dumb Town" is practically guaranteed to make that player less likely to want to be cooperative with you, and Town cohesion can be a powerful weapon. Making Town cohesion more difficult serves a scum agenda. Plus, by casting another player as dumb, you send a signal that their posts should be ignored. And, regardless of my personal assessment of someone's abilities/intelligence, if I think they're Town, I want their opinion heard, not ignored. I may not agree with them, and I'll discuss with them why, but shoving them aside seems contrary to working towards a Town win.

Om is saying some of the dumbest things known to man, their posts on B&B are atrocious.

Is this another "dumb Town" read? I can't really tell, although I don't believe that's what you meant. I would appreciate you explaining some of what you find atrocious.

I really don't think Nachomamma8 is very likely scum at this juncture.

Seems to me he's demonstrating a desire to make the game more difficult for scum through advocating the mass claim (my personal opinion is that early mass claims are functionally better for Town given that site meta so heavily discourages it, and scum get to hide behind "OMG SAVE THE PR'S", and scum aren't prepared for it. Forcing people to lock into a claim early takes away much of the ability of scum to craft a claim later when more is on the line. Well, plus, I derped a LYLO because of a fake claim that I believed and wouldn't have been possible to foresee that it would be beneficial if forced out early.). And, while Nachomamma8 hasn't really stressed this point, there was something significantly scummy about Oversoul's claim. That was the fact that he said he was planning to claim, but didn't when he made his first post. Then, after CrashtextDummie brought up the mass-claim, Oversoul took the easy "no way, man!" route, but then offererd his own claim up and said CrashTextDummie's idea had nothing to do with him claiming. So, Nachomamma8 pushing the Oversoul wagon seems to come from a Town motivated mind set, to me.

You got any kind of a read towards ArcAngel9?

Alright, so, the Oversoul wagon is reasonable, and I have no qualms with 3 of the 4 voters. Bulbazak is the odd man out, due to Slandaar's Post 479. There is strange dissonance in those two posts from Bulbazak.

Hey, also, Bulbazak demonstrates absolutely no conviction in the Oversoul wagon, he's just content to sit there and hide in the crowd. I don't detect any sense that he believes he's actually voting scum.

@Nachomamma8

Walk me through why you think Oversoul would throw out such a silly and useless claim as scum. I mean, I get the fact that the claim doesn't amount to anything worthwhile. Still, I can't quite imagine someone with a scum role PM reacting to the mass claim proposal by going, "No massclaim guys, but I'm gonna make a worthless fake claim". Seems like the scum response would be much more likely to just take the "pro-Town" line of "mass claim is baaaaaad, we've got to protect our PR's at all costs, no way I'm claiming anything!".

Also, why'd you have the early Town read on ArcAngel9, and is that still where you're at on her?

VOTE: ArcAngel9
I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of scumhunting.

We should massclaim. I am not joking.

Raise of hands, everyone in favor.

are you crazy.. No claims plz!!!!!!!!!!



Mastin2, I don't have any issue with HD hydra.

This is the kind of reaction I expect to a proposed massclaim from scum. Belittle the idea, but take no initiative to figure out why someone is proposing such an idea.

Also, rather than any commentary about any of the content that developed pre-game, or up to that point, an aside to the mod that served no purpose.

^wow, that VCA is just mind blowing. Great job Mastin

This post, in particular, gave me scum feelings towards ArcAngel9. Absolutely no commentary on the game state, no attempts to figure anything out. Prefering to interact with the mod over interacting with the game and other players is not Town motivated.

Her later commentary that the Oversoul wagon is bad 'cuz it's soooo quick again betrays her lack of interest in figuring out anyone's alignment.

Yep, yep, this is scummy behavior from someone who got a scum role PM. Let's lynch her.

So to recap: DLG is really, really big on scumhunting. You can see him admonishing both Arc and B&TB for it. And yet, all his posts contain are townreads and surface level game commentary. "I really don't think Nacho is likely scum at this point," "B&TB is likely town pushing on Cephir, who is also likely town," etc. You chastize B&TB for not having any posts "designed to find anything scummy," but what are you doing? Commenting on things long after the fact and getting townreads on everyone involved? How is your behavior finding scum?

And then you vote Arc for the same thing (not scumhunting) and because her reason for not liking the OS wagon. Expecting something of others that you aren't doing yourself? Check. Misrepping AA9's opinion on the OS wagon to make it seem much more simplistic than it actually was? Check. Here's everything AA9 had to say:

I am not liking the quick OS wagon. Its bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's bad about it?

The speeed of it...
if he is scum, it not the end of the game.. there is a whole scum team that we need to find.. so Talk first and let people talk with eachother and lynch whe it is required. i hate quick lynches..they're just useless and doesnt' give any info.

What makes you think this is about to be a quicklynch? He only has like 5 votes.

i have been in those situations where 5 becomes 10 votes in no time.... so don't give me that logic. And I am only alerting so that this doesn't go that that phase and end terribly bad. I hate bad lynches.

So, now can you make talk more that pertains to game subject. ?

AA9, we're still 8 away from lynch, so it's not like we're going to be lynching Oversoul at the end of the day. I actually took the size of the wagon into account before I voted, and I felt I had adequate enough reason to do so, especially with the information gathered from d0 (I had a decent scumread on him then.). If the wagon starts reaching dangerous levels quickly, then yes, we need to take a step back and examine how and why, but for right now, we're still all right. If you have another reason for why this wagon is bad, other than speed, please feel free to speak up.

Exactly my point. As long as everyone understands that

The other thing that stuck out like a sore thumb regarding your AA9 vote: Why did you ask Amethyst Kitty if they had any experience with AA9 if you were just going to vote her at the end of your string of posts anyway? You asked specifically if AA9 naturally comes off as scummy which, if Kitty confirmed, presumably would weaken your scum read on her, but then you don't even given Kitty an opportunity to respond before voting.

Finally, with regards to the three bolded statements in #490: Your threshold for towntells is basically nonexistant. "He really believes what he's saying" does not make someone town, "being interested in finding things out" does not make someone town. They read like weak reasons used to justify something that you know to be true.

[Desperado]

EBWOP: Never had someone post 4 times while I was in the process of writing up a case on them. It can only be a good thing, I guess; either he'll have blown my read out of the water with his towniness, or he'll have made it even stronger by scumming it up. I'll let you know which one it is after I read them.

[Desperado]

I am not getting how you are immediately discounting indies, the large game list for accepted roles isn't super clear.

From the rules for Normal Games, which state:

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).

Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).

[Desperado]

EBWOP: Never had someone post 4 times while I was in the process of writing up a case on them. It can only be a good thing, I guess; either he'll have blown my read out of the water with his towniness, or he'll have made it even stronger by scumming it up. I'll let you know which one it is after I read them.

It was the latter. More votes on DLG please.

[Desperado]

{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

This townlist is great, Bulbazak scumread is great, Amethyst Kitty townread is meh, the rest is all decent.

Welcome to townville. Please vote Bulbazak. Thanks.

~

Is this a joke that's going over my head, or are you seriously saying DLG is town because you agree with his reads after arguing with B&TB and Bulba for 10 pages about B&TB doing the same?!

[Desperado]

{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

This townlist is great, Bulbazak scumread is great, Amethyst Kitty townread is meh, the rest is all decent.

Welcome to townville. Please vote Bulbazak. Thanks.

~

Is this a joke that's going over my head, or are you seriously saying DLG is town because you agree with his reads after arguing with B&TB and Bulba for 10 pages about B&TB doing the same?!

Om I think you missed this at the end of the last page.

[Desperado]

But the reads are only good and sensical because they align with your own, right?

[Desperado]

OK

So DLG has good reads, but what about his actual play? What do you think of my post about it?

[Desperado]

Post More

Desperado

I have a scum read on one of your town reads, have defended one of your scum reads, and have a pretty extensive interaction with your A#1 scumread. What more do I need to do to get a read from you?

[Desperado]

OK, thank you for clarifying. I saw myself lumped in with Thor, rondar, seanald, and baby spice, whom I have more posts than combined (since the game actually started, granted), and I was kinda floored.

I think my main issue with DLG's "townhunting" is that he isn't actively doing anything even when he's doing that, even as he accuses AA9 and B&TB of not actively scumhunting. Can you show me which of his posts are "designed to find scum", or even town? I don't see purpose when DLG posts, I see commentary. This happened, and then that happened, and they are both probably town anyway so why don't you guys just move on, yeah?

When he does get a townread on someone, it's for an extremely weak reason (like "he really believes what he's saying"). So if he's not actively helping find scum, and the townhunting that he is doing is limited by the viability of his tells, then what is he doing? More to the point, which alignment does doing nothing and getting weak townreads on two players who are fighting serve?

[Desperado]

And the Om/Bulba argument has now become both a literal and figurative spiral into oblivion. Continuing this argument looks bad for both of you, so if you are town I suggest you stop it and start pursuing something else.

[Desperado]

I will comment on other points of discussion tomorrow when I should have time to do more than skim thanks to the holiday, and I will likely move my vote to B&B, although Oversoul really should be voted to oblivion for persistently ignoring this question:

Why did you want to soft-claim pre MC-suggestion, Oversoul?

People have been asking about the case against him. It has been repeatedly pointed out what the scum motivation is behind a claim like his, and he has so far provided zero town motivation for doing it. I really struggle to think of any.

He is also guilty of soft-claiming, which in general is shady at best and a common scum tactic, and the appropriate course of action is to force a full claim.

Hmm. Ok.

I ignored it again because I wanted to see your reaction to me ignoring it and whether or not you would expand beyond just suspecting me.

My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and

unfortunately only a handful of players did.

CTD's analysis of the mass claim tell looks very town motivated and the fact that he is moving forward with his scumreads when I figured he would sit by and wait for me to respond or try to further a case against me seems very town. I am happy to call him town in this game.

Yes, my Informed Townie claim was a gambit. I do not have any special information about the setup. My extra tid bit of "I have more information" was to further the gambit more until more people had commented on it.

Can you quote and comment on each of these?

[Desperado]

I can't blame him, it's kind of brutal. You're the only one who wasn't in on the joke. And yes, of course I meant the players, and more specifically their reactions and, in detail, what that says about their alignment.

[Desperado]

Oversoul town if role is legit

How do you make that mistake if you are actually reading the thread? It's all we've been talking about two pages.

[Desperado]

Eddie you are way off base on this. Let's suppose everything you say is true, and that any townie "with two brain cells to rub together" could figure out the answer. Well, Bulba isn't sure that Oversoul is town, is he? So if he's scum, he has to come up with a satisfactory answer for his actions, which by definition will be manufactured because he isn't town. You stepping in to answer the question for him, even granting everything you say is genuine, still interferes with his scumhunting of Oversoul. This is what he means when he calls your behavior anti-town, and he's 100% RIGHT.

[Desperado]

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

He was lying. Oversoul lied about having information. Why do you keep pretending like he never admitted this?!? It's bizarre and unsettling.

[Desperado]

Unless you were discussing my reaction to the "gambit" claim.

derp.

You're right.

I wish I could edit that now.

the people that I asked to talk about the mass claim, I meant my gambit claim.

I wasn't here yet. By the time I had read the pregame stuff and caught up to the present, your claim was more like a footnote to CTD's mass claim suggestion, and all of the relevant arguments had been made and responded to.

[Desperado]

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

I'm beginning to grok that you aren't very good at this game.

I'm not, but I appear to at least be better at logic than you, and none of that changes how scummy you are.

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

I'm calling them scummy for saying someone is 'confscum' (presumably they have "a very strong scum read" and are exaggerating) without giving any reasons.

Likewise, I didn't suspect you for wanting to lynch someone, but for wanting to lynch for barely-better-than-RVS reasons.

How is this different from suspecting someone for wanting to leave RVS (which, IIRC, someone (B&TB?) already called you out on and you disagreed)? If you will suspect someone for voting based on "barely better than RVS reasons," how do you suggest we ever leave RVS? Won't any attempt to leave RVS and make a series vote be based on barely better than RVS reasons by definition?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Nacho

[Desperado]

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Can you explain what you mean by "fell flat?" I actually thought it was a pretty good point.

"he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads...it was still scumhunting, whether it was fake or not" can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything,

and the constant complaining about walls is scummy considering she's not commenting on anything in the entire game and blaming it solely on walls.

Seems to be basically the same exact point that I was making about DLG, isn't?

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

[Desperado]

after a reread of page 59, I actually think the Om/HD hydra is town for the schizophrenia

it looks like a legitimate argument, not fabricated

How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).

[Desperado]

can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

This...doesn't answer the question I was asking you. You were talking about Baby Spice and said "Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything." Basically saying her townreads are weak and sparsely supported, i.e. fabricated, which is exactly what I was saying about DLG's townreads. Except you said "he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting." So why is it ok for you to call out Baby Spice's townreads for being weak, but when I call out DLG's townreads for being weak, he's still scumhunting and I'm scummy for it?

And why did you ignore my first question? How did my accusation against DLG for voting AA for not scumhunting when he isn't doing any himself fall flat? We clearly aren't on the same page here.

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I might be different, but I focus a hell of a lot closer on suspect's posting than everyone else, and reading DGB's post would take a little longer than that for me. I guess what I found strange was not that you read it that quickly, but that you read it that quickly AND decided you didn't see anything worth commenting on in that chunk.

Did you see anything worth commenting on? It was more of the same from my point of view, which I think was pretty clearly expressed in what I said.

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

Good thing I didn't say that CTD said that? Read the sentence again. I said that CTD proposed the mass claim that you said I was scummy for "vaguely supporting" the idea of even though I was not vague about my position whatsoever. And are you sure that it had absolutely nothing to do with it? Because you said that "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads," and I'm pretty sure his case on DLG falls into that category. If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

I question his current vote, not just because it's on someone I read as town and unlikely to lead anywhere, but also because there's a good wagon waiting to happen on his second choice, DLG.

I think that DLG and Desp are unlikely partners at this point

, so I'd rather take care of the stronger scumread first.

Well you're finally right about something.

[Desperado]

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

I wasn't aware I was making points that needed to be stretched for. Can you be more specific?

[Desperado]

Pretty much just the WIFOM. My point is basically that there isn't motivation for either alignment in any direction because I don't think the argument was motivated by anything. It was a hydra arguing over its reads. They have been arguing all over the thread about a bunch of different things...so it speaks more to the way Om/HD approach the hydra than on their alignment, in my estimation.

[Desperado]

I fucked that up real hard.

God damn it. I had like 7 draft's for this game and I didn't know which one was it. >_>

Anyway, that is my impression of the people who commented on my claim.
What is interesting is that Ryu was particularly focused on why I was voting him which I find very peculiar, given that he mentioned it twice. Like I said, almost as if he is angry that he supported me and I was voting him.

So...are you going to give us the draft that isn't just mostly repetition of your #1058?

[Desperado]

zzzz

You literally just told me to stop asking you to explain how you developed your read on me because the questions that I'm asking are scummy. If you're already in the confirmation bias stage of this discussion then why are you even bothering to engage me? You've already decided that I'm scum, to the point where you're just making shit up (like "his activity in this game is tied to mine...he waits for me to post, and then responds" such as 1501, 1519, and 1578? That have nothing to do with you?) because it makes your point sound better.

And how am I trying to make your case go away? Why would I keep responding to it (which is evidently all I'm doing) if my goal is to make it disappear? Why do you keep clipping my posts and then not answering the questions that I'm asking (and just calling them scummy instead)?

[Desperado]

1) Don't call me kiddo...although the unnecessary condescension might help get you lynched so on second thought, keep patronizing me
2) That's exactly what you said. You told me to "stop asking you these questions because they are scummy as hell" when "these questions" are me pointing out inconsistencies in your scumhunting and asking you to explain them. You've made no distinction between DLG's "at least" pretending to scumhunt and Baby Spice pretending to scumhunt, for example, for example, other than "it is that way because I say it is."
3) So if I avoid it, that makes me autoscum. But if I respond to it, and my level of activity regarding other happenings in the game is not up to your standard, then I'm also scum? Is there a situation here that doesn't end with "then I'm scum" in your mind? Because it doesn't really sound like it.

PEdit: Ceph: Why does the question not make sense the first time, but when Nacho makes me ask it again that's when you "have me winning?" It's the same question.

And I wasn't making I point, I was being sarcastic because I knew that Nacho had just lied. CTD's case on DLG absolutely played into Nacho's townread on him (as I pointed out), which leads me to believe that he was just saying that in response to my question to discredit it from the start (that point is invalid because it isn't even relevant!) Except it was relevant, so now he has to switch to "CTD's push on his DLG case was better than yours," which was not his original assertion. Do you get it? He lied and got caught, so I pointed it out cheekily.

Finally, I'm not beholden to any of you or your standards of play. I'll respond to what I want to respond to, when I want to respond to it...before today I had 6 posts since voting Nacho (and Nacho voting me in return), 3 responding to his vote on me and 3 not. If 50% = "almost exclusively" then yeah, I'm almost exclusively responding to Nacho.

[Desperado]

AP tests weren't even 50% as difficult as they were made out to be. I took 3 in a week two years in a row, it's really not that strenuous.

And it's not like you weren't aware of the date of the exams. You chose to join a large game during AP exam week, and are now getting snarky and defensive when people say it's scummy that you aren't really participating. Does that seem reasonable to you?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: AA9

I can vouch for Syry's meta read on AA9. In Mini 1426 town-AA9 went V/LA late in D1, came back to a wagon on her and immediately OMGUS'd the wagon starter by quoting their vote and beginning with "scum trying to frame me and get me lynched in my absence." Her immediate frame of mind was 100% OMGUS.

And I agree with OS and Sy about what bacde said...calling attention to your attempt to prove that you aren't showing scum motivation is scum motivated.

[Desperado]

Fuzzy is claiming to have only read 3 pages. Why can't we kill that?

The reaction to the fake modkill looked town to me.

Scum are more likely to clam up and see what the fallout is.

If you really want a fuzzybutternut lynch. Post a better case.

Majiffy posted that on his regular account...which is why it read forced to me. I don't see how anyone paying attention could have legitimately thought someone was dead, and multiple players immediately jumped on him for being stupid. Are they all scum?

I will lend a hand in hanging: DLG (if he doesn't get replaced), Nacho, AA9, Cephrir, OS, and fuzzy.

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 8 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Slandaar, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Om the Destroyer, Baby Spice)

fuzzybutternut - 3 (thezmon221, Cephrir, Oversoul)

ArcAngel9 - 3 (DLG, Syryana, Desperado)
Oversoul - 2 (Kublai Khan, BeautyAndTheBeast)
Red Ryu - 1 (ArcAngel9)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Thor665)
Bacde - 1 (Bulbazak)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (fuzzybutternut)

Not Voting - 3 (Hanzo_5, EddieFenix, Amethyst Kitty)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

Red Ryu is V/LA from Friday, May 17th until Monday, May 20th.
At least half of the Amethyst Kitty hydra is V/LA until Tuesday, May 21st.

[Desperado]

The switch in and of itself is suspicious as all fuck considering I was accusing him of only posting content when it has to do with me just a minute ago.

Unless I'm mistaken this is you saying that it's scummy that I am posting content that doesn't have to do with you, right? If so, skip to paragraph two.

My read on you didn't go anywhere, Syry put forth a read on another player that I felt I had the knowledge to back up and the only way I can show my support for a wagon is to vote it. Did you not see the post two above your newest string where I listed you as someone I would like to see dead?

You are so far beyond confirmation bias at this point that it really isn't worth engaging you in a discussion...when I inevitably die and flip town I'll just take solace in the fact that you latched on to a bullshit read and spend the next however long confirming your own suspicions regardless of what I said.

[Desperado]

Red is typically a mod color (and is one of mastin2's colors but only apparently inside the things). And Majiffy fucks up account posting regularly. I see it as possible. Jumping on Majiffy for being stupid is a nulltell.

This isn't what I was saying, so let me make this clear:

1) Majiffy is in the B&TB hydra
2) Majiffy isn't a mod of this game
3) Majiffy is the one who posted in red lettering saying that someone had been modkilled
4) Fuzzy thought that a non-mod posting on his regular account that someone had been modkilled was legitimate
5) Several people jumped on

fuzzy

for being stupid.

You said that you felt Fuzzy's reaction to the fake modkill was town, but he was the only one who thought it was anything other than a joke, so how does that reconcile?

My read on you didn't go anywhere, Syry put forth a read on another player that I felt I had the knowledge to back up and the only way I can show my support for a wagon is to vote it. Did you not see the post two above your newest string where I listed you as someone I would like to see dead?

Okay. But why is your meta read on AA stronger than your read on me?

It isn't. If I had 10 votes I would have 7 of them on you, 2 on DLG, and one on AA9, but I only have one.

You are so far beyond confirmation bias at this point that it really isn't worth engaging you in a discussion...when I inevitably die and flip town I'll just take solace in the fact that you latched on to a bullshit read and spend the next however long confirming your own suspicions regardless of what I said.

Confirmation bias? I thought you were calling me scum just a moment ago and your read on me went nowhere.

Honestly don't even know what you're talking about. I'm saying that you are so far beyond confirmation bias in your approach to me that we might as well just not engage one another. First I'm scummy because I'm only responding when you post, now I'm scummy because I'm responding to other things and moving my vote without updating you on where you stand in my reads. I'm sure if I hadn't posted any content the last few days you'd be saying I was scum for that, too. You're creating situations where I'm scum no matter what happens, hence, so far beyond confirmation bias.

[Desperado]

I already explained why I'm voting AA9, more than once in fact. You even quoted it. Syry brought up an interesting point about AA9 that I could support. I'm free to move my vote where I please, and if/when I decide that the AA9 issue has run it's course, you can bet your ass I'll put it back on you.

"If I was scum, I wouldn't have confirmation bias" is this self-meta, or what?

[Desperado]

zzzzz my post outlining why I'm voting AA9 doesn't explain why I'm voting AA9? I want both of you lynched.

lol a wikipedia link. "...or when they interpret it (information) in a biased way." That's you in a nutshell.

[Desperado]

Because your wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere and I'm more interested in AA9 right now.

Alternatively, you're scum pushing an unexpected wagon (which, as bacde pointed out, you would know would work in your favor as opposed to joining the biggest rival wagon) as a response to a huge wagon on you, interpreting my behavior (no matter what it is, even if it contradicts an earlier instance) as scummy. You only talk about my early play, which "hurt a fair bit," in generalities and blanket statements, and when I pushed you on them you either: called me scummy for asking you about them, or changed what you originally said into something else. You aren't engaging me in good faith, you're talking through me and then calling me scummy for whatever I do in response.

[Desperado]

If his wagon is going nowhere then what wagon is?
Are you serious with this gak, because I'm almost tempted to sheep Nacho at this stage.

And I'm almost tempted to believe that you deliberately misread that to say that you might sheep Nacho. By "your wagon isn't going anywhere" I meant "it is unlikely to dissipate before day's end," meaning that when I'm done with AA9 I know the Nacho wagon will still be available to me. Nacho is questioning me about moving my vote off of him as if it's scummy when he had just been calling me scummy for only paying attention to him. So, like I said, no-win situation for me that he created.

[Desperado]

Desperado trying to back down from a loosing battle? His most recent posting doesn't look. His reaction to nacho is strange

How am I backing down, exactly?

VOTE: Desperado

This should be our lynch for today.

Case to come.

Looking forward to it.

Right and right. The logic for voting AA9 is terrible- Desperado admits he prefers both Nacho and DLG, and it's not like AA9 is getting lynched right now, so why not vote for the stronger suspect that is actually being pressured? The confirmation bias point really sounds like Desp knows Nacho is town.

The logic for voting AA9 because she is not playing to her town meta in my experience (and she just flipped town in another ongoing game which further supports it) is terrible? Where does my vote do more good...as the 10th or 11th on a healthy wagon, or as the 2nd or 3rd on a player on the fringes whose content has thus far not reflected their town play? How the fuck does the confirmation bias point sound like I know Nacho is town? You and I and Nacho clearly have a different understanding of what confirmation bias is...I've given mine more than once, so what's yours? Because I'm treating it as a scumtell.

While I understand this sentiment, the way it's being expressed sounds to me like flailing scum. A townie might feel like their words are being twisted (and they certainly wouldn't imply their attacker is town right after that as with the confirmation bias thing). But "calling me scummy for everything I do in response"... the things you're doing in response *are* scummy. Add this to previous pages of this argument and, well...

VOTE: Desperado

This is so, so rich given your recent exchange with Thor. Specifically this:

I feel like you're responding to each of my points in a vacuum as though the rest of the argument that went before them didn't exist and mingling the parts of the argument together when I was just trying to respond to specific points. One way or another we seem to start in one place and you end up steering me into arguing about something else.

Sounds eerily familiar. You're really earning your spot on my "please die" list.

I've hardly mentioned a lot of people, actually.

I feel like Desp writes a lot of words and doesn't end up accomplishing much. I don't really feel like I've actually gained any information from reading his posts. He's pretty much a non-entity in this game and that doesn't sit well.
Also gut and I'm not sure I want to be on the Nacho wagon right now, need to discuss with HD first so this is a good vote in the meantime.

~Pertayter

How do you expect me to respond to this? You think my posts are empty rhetoric, I obviously don't. If that's where the discussion is going to begin and end, can you really call this effective scumhunting?

[Desperado]

Moar votes on Desp!

BabySpice, stop making poetry and vote Desp.

Bacde, stop tunneling townies and vote Desp. That goes for the rest of you peeps on the Nacho wagon too.

Cephrir... eh, you do whatever you're doing, we'll lynch you tomorrow. Though if you want to be pro-town and bus your bud, we'd be all for that.

Thor, Slandaar, Disney hydra! Stop circle jerking and vote Desp!

I thought you had a case incoming...

[Desperado]

I actually kind of like the idea of me vs. Nacho today. He's scum, and that fact seems to have divided us pretty well. Cephrir dies first after Nacho flips scum.

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

[Desperado]

Yes, I did completely change what I said originally. What happens when I engage people is I attack them based on things that I don't like in their play, and then my read changes (either gets stronger or gets weaker) based on their responses. In this case, they got stronger. The situation of me calling you out for not scumhunting elsewhere is an observation that isn't necessarily indicative of you immediately being scum since you might just be a tunneley player, but the fact that you immediately adjusted your play after I called you out on that point told me I struck a chord.

Your ability to misread what I say is pretty amazing. When I said you "completely changed what you said" I was referring to, for example, your stance on CTD, where you first said his case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with your townread on him, but then later you said you were townreading him because of the way he was pushing his case as opposed to me. And can you show me where you called me out for not scumhunting? I don't remember that being a part of your case at any point. Or maybe where I "immediately adjusted my play?" Because that's new too.

PEdit: This is you stepping it up? Continually misreading other people's posts and resorting to just making shit up when it suits you?

[Desperado]

It wasn't his case on DLG alone. He's pushed DLG in a way that's better than the way you pushed it. Reads are much more than one case. Stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell.

I have never been interacting exclusively with you, either before or after my vote. There was a two day period (on a weekend IIRC) where I did not pust much (the 50/50 you and Cephrir pointed out earlier). And me moving my vote is an adjustment of my play? Go into more detail on that.

You've been interpreting my posts in whatever way you please, whether what you think I said is what I actually said or not, since your big reads catchup post.

[Desperado]

I have never been interacting exclusively with you, either before or after my vote. There was a two day period (on a weekend IIRC) where I did not pust much (the 50/50 you and Cephrir pointed out earlier).

And that's the period I was talking about because it just happened to be the time when I was initially pushing the case on you.

And me moving my vote is an adjustment of my play? Go into more detail on that.

You interacting with me almost exclusively, then you voting ArcAngel and pushing her.

You are right that I mentioned DLG was a part of my case. You are correct that I used the words "excusively" when that word was too strong, and that I said "nothing to do with it" when it should mean "little to do with it". But the points that I'm making, that no, CTD's case on DLG wasn't a significant part of my reads, and no,

you weren't exclusively focusing on me put you sure weren't looking elsewhere in any significant way.

So your only response is semantics? You said what you said, and I can only assume that you meant it to. This is backtracking, now that I caught you in a lie

again

. About the same thing! It's also funny that you don't actually address the fact that you just lied again.

As to the bolded...and now you and Cephrir are using the fact that I was looking elsewhere as a scumtell on me. This is not engaging me in good faith. I'm scummy for only focusing on you, but I'm also scummy for focusing on other people because I'm only doing it because you told me to.

Finally, re: Confirmation bias...that is just dumb. It's dumb. You do not need to "truly believe" in something to interpret things regarding it in a biased way, and "truly believing" something does not make you town.

[Desperado]

...someone already asked me to repeat myself once, and I complied. Everything you need to know about why I voted AA9 is in the post in which I voted her.

And I don't care that you're calling it exaggeration now, you can explain that away if you want. But you just said that you never said you townread CTD because he was pushing his DLG case differently from me when you very clearly did.

[Desperado]

How did you quote the post where Thor misreads what I said, and then misread the very same thing?

"And you're admitting to the fact that whatsoever cases you had on me weren't really reason enough to vote me first but after Syry ringed your bell, you suddenly realize that i am scum?? Seems like some sort of comfort way to jump into it...."

I did? There are 24 people in this game...your presence in the game was limited and my focus was not on you. Syry's evidently was. He brought something to the town's attention (scumhunting) that I found interesting and could support, given my experience with you. It's really as simple as that.

Arc, let me ask you something. You've seen both my town and scum game. Which is this? Do you really feel so strongly in me being scum that you would "jump from the top of mount everest" when I flip town?

[Desperado]

The day is long and I thought my support for the point would carry more weight with a vote attached.

[Desperado]

The logic for voting AA9 because she is not playing to her town meta in my experience (and she just flipped town in another ongoing game which further supports it) is terrible? Where does my vote do more good...as the 10th or 11th on a healthy wagon, or as the 2nd or 3rd on a player on the fringes whose content has thus far not reflected their town play? How the fuck does the confirmation bias point sound like I know Nacho is town? You and I and Nacho clearly have a different understanding of what confirmation bias is...I've given mine more than once, so what's yours? Because I'm treating it as a scumtell.

Isn't that a while ago in one your posts says that also you had a different reasons in your mind that proves me as scum?

And syrana post ringed your bell later point which immediately made me more scummier to you than anyone? now you're back to META thingy? Can you jsut stand by to one logic at least or at least both.. not just this or that...

And don't talk about an on-going game please.... And don't you dare mentioned about my play there. I have played far far far better town play, I did everything I could to look like an idoit so that i could make good use of my VIG shot in that game (which Indeed was very successfull, As town I did far better in that game than you did. So, don't talk about it. And being a good townie is not just being leader or giving some sort logistical reads, A good townie must act smartly and cunningly and do whatever it is required to help their group secretly. So, what you know about is so less that i am. Don't try to rub yourself that you're a better player than me or so...

@ bolded: Nope, didn't say that. If you don't even know what my position is and has been regarding you, how can you criticize me for not being consistent? You're telling me to stand by one thing, and not just this or that, when I only stood by this and never said that.

As for the rest...lol @ telling me not to talk about an ongoing game and then...talking about said ongoing game AND pretending like I was criticizing your play, or saying that I'm better than you. Where are you getting this shit?

I was also referring to Mini 1426, where you got mislynched d1 and I flipped scum after getting investigated by the cop? The one that's been over for over a month now?

[Desperado]

We can just lynch Desperado.

I haven't looked at him.
What are his sins?

As far as I can tell, this is why each person is voting me:

Nachomamma8 - Not even sure honestly, I'm just scum. I've made my opinion on Nacho's case and treatment of me pretty clear.
Syryana - Not sure, said he had a case that he never posted, just bacde'ing it up
Cephrir - Blatantly sheeping Nacho (a couple of his posts are almost carbon copies)
Om the Destroyer - I'm using a lot of words but not giving a lot of content. No quotes provided or explanation
ArcAngel9 - She admits it's OMGUS, beyond that I don't know
Bacde - No reason given
Thor665 - No reason given
Bulbazak - Slave to his book of logical fallacies, thinks I scumslipped because the way I'm using confirmation bias is different from his

Suffice it to say I'm not really impressed by this wagon.

[Desperado]

@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

I think that him trying to compare himself to another one of my townreads (CTD) and trying to argue that I can't have a townread on him based on similar cases was scummy because it was decently clear why I had the townread on CTD in the first place, so him taking the "you can't have a scumread on me because one of your townreads position" seemed like he was trying to escape based on a technicality as opposed to any genuine opinion.

His behavior while I attacked him initially was scummy because he focused mostly on me and didn't scumhunt elsewhere; when I confronted him on it, he tried to squirm out of it several ways, then suddenly jumped off on ArcAngel on a case that he just wanted to show "support" for. It's scummy because he was adjusting his play to please the crowd when he started to get heat, and his reaction afterwards of "I'm just fucked no matter what I do" is scummy and hypocritical, considering he let Bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunneling. His dodginess while being questioned also helped too; when I asked him about the arcangel vote, he never explain why he decided to move except that my wagon wasn't going anywhere and he thought he would show more support if he put a vote on it. He moved back when he started to get votes, but that was the survival instinct kicking in; if all he wanted to do was show support for the vote, then deciding to vote me just because he's getting more votes doesn't make any sense at all.

See this is the problem, basically none of this accurately reflects what happened.

I never "argued" that you can't townread CTD and not me, I was ASKING YOU why that was the case and you called me scummy for asking.

I "focused mostly on you" during a three day period, on a weekend, in which I made 6 posts and 3 were relevant to you and 3 weren't.

I didn't "suddenly" jump off on an Arc case, Syry pointed something out and I backed him up on it.

I wasn't adjusting my play to please the crowd because my play never adjusted...please show me the difference between my play in the first 1000 posts and the second 1000 posts.

It's hypocritical for me to "let bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunnelling" when he was tunnelling on a scum read?

I didn't have to explain why I moved again because I already had, multiple times. And I put my vote back on you after Arc responded to my vote...you know, the whole reason I put it there in the first place?

Nacho is scum, Ceph and AA are the most obvious teammates, beyond that I'm not really sure. The rest probably aren't on my wagon yet...I have bacde, syry, bulb, and thor as town

[Desperado]

First, finding and identifying logical fallacies are a good way to spot scum, as they tend to use them. Second, in order for someone to be trapped in confirmation bias, that person has to be town, because they have to be blind to actual alignments. Scum are not blind to everyone else's alignment, thus they can never be trapped in confirmation bias. By saying Nacho had a confirmation bias on you, you were calling Nacho town, plain and simple. Either you had reversed your scumread of him, which later posts prove incorrect, or you KNOW him to be town, and thus you scum slipped. Confirmation bias requires that not knowing, which scum are incapable of. It's not "my interpretation", it's the actual definition of the term, and your trying to say otherwise either shows a profound ignorance or desperate scum floundering on your part. I prefer the second explanation.

Please tell me more about how scum can't interpret events in a biased way.

[Desperado]

"It's hypocritical for me to "let bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunnelling" when he was tunnelling on a scum read

that I share

?"

[Desperado]

See this is the problem, basically none of this accurately reflects what happened.

I never "argued" that you can't townread CTD and not me, I was ASKING YOU why that was the case and you called me scummy for asking.

I "focused mostly on you" during a three day period, on a weekend, in which I made 6 posts and 3 were relevant to you and 3 weren't.

I didn't "suddenly" jump off on an Arc case, Syry pointed something out and I backed him up on it.

I wasn't adjusting my play to please the crowd because my play never adjusted...please show me the difference between my play in the first 1000 posts and the second 1000 posts.

It's hypocritical for me to "let bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunnelling" when he was tunnelling on a scum read?

I didn't have to explain why I moved again because I already had, multiple times. And I put my vote back on you after Arc responded to my vote...you know, the whole reason I put it there in the first place?

We've gone though this literally a hundred times.
Do you really want to go through it again? I don't.

You're right, we don't need to go through it again...anyone who actually examines our ISOs together in depth will realize that you haven't been interested in engaging me from the beginning, you just needed an unexpected ML target that you could sprinkle in some surefire towntells (confirmation bias!) on to so that all of your friends could feel good about themselves for finally being able to townread you and not have to lynch you day one. Mission accomplished!

[Desperado]

It isn't a potshot, it's the truth.

[Desperado]

This just tells me that you aren't even reading what I'm saying and are just trying to discredit the argument. The point is that scum don't suffer from confirmation bias, because they KNOW who is not on their team (confirmation bias depends on not knowing). Ergo, they know who is not scum. Therefore, any tunneling they do is driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and not confirmation bias.

No, I'm reading what you are saying, and my response is that it's simplistic. Tunnelling driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and confirmation bias are not mutually exclusive, and it's just weird that you think they are. Are you saying it would be difficult (impossible?) to fake confirmation bias? Because I think it would actually be pretty fucking easy.

[Desperado]

And what do you mean, what? No one is disputing my claim that Nacho is employing confirmation bias in his approach to me. In fact, you are saying I scumslipped by saying that Nacho is steeped in confirmation bias because only town can use it. Ergo, confirmation bias is a surefire towntell. What's confusing?

[Desperado]

@ B&TB:

The three best points of argument for OSscum are:

- He designed and executed a gambit that yielded nothing, despite clearly being invested in it and his early posturing immediately after claiming the gambit ("My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime...)
- The reads he does give from his gambit are largely useless and, ultimately, ignored. He specifically mentions fuzzy, cephrir, and yourself as potential scum candidates based on their reaction to his claim, but...keeps his vote parked on Red Ryu all the way from #202 through his 2nd attempt to analyze his gambit in #1572 , after which he votes...Nacho. I expect a townie to be more judicious with his vote, especially when they claim to have done something specifically designed to catch scum, identify potential candidates for said caught scum, and then ignore those people with his vote.
- Finally, that 2nd set of analysis was a copy/paste of his first version and, when questioned about it, he mentioned something about having multiple drafts and posting the wrong one. Yet when I asked him if he was going to post the final version what, presumably, would not have been a 1:1 rehash of his previous post, he...ignores it, and begins claiming to have lost interest in the game. But based on what he said, the final version should have already been written, right?

[Desperado]

Please tell me more about how scum can't interpret events in a biased way.

This just tells me that you aren't even reading what I'm saying and are just trying to discredit the argument. The point is that scum don't suffer from confirmation bias, because they KNOW who is not on their team (confirmation bias depends on not knowing). Ergo, they know who is not scum. Therefore, any tunneling they do is driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and not confirmation bias.

that you could sprinkle in some surefire towntells (confirmation bias!) on

What?

desperado do you understand what bulb is saying here cos is making a very good point. it is just that I think you don't understand how confirmation bias works cos you haven't demonstrated so far that you have. I think you just don't know what it means.

If you read my ISO you will see that I have been continually mentioning that the way I'm using it is obviously not the same as Bulb/Ceph/Nacho understand it. If Nacho's goal as scum is to appear to be town and not get lynched, then it's ridiculous for anyone to say that a player exhibiting confirmation bias must be town, and that another player who calls attention to that confirmation bias scumslipped because I said he's using confirmation bias instead of calling him scum going for a ML, when those two acts are not mutually exclusive.

Both town and scum can approach an engagement with a preconceived conclusion and then fit the evidence to their conclusion. Do you all seriously dispute this?

[Desperado]

You're missing my point. This is about you claiming that Nacho has confirmation bias, instead of just saying that he is scummily tunneling you. Your assertion of this signifies that you either believe Nacho is town, which you deny, or that you KNOW Nacho is town, which would be a scum slip. Nacho, therefore, cannot fake your read of him having confirmation bias, unless you're also claiming that he can also control your mind.

So this is a strict word choice issue? Had I called it scummily tunneling me what would your reaction to it have been?

[Desperado]

My argument is that there is no functional difference between confirmation bias and scummily tunneling someone when the rules of the game dictate that everyone appear to be town in order to win.

[Desperado]

Both town and scum can approach an engagement with a preconceived conclusion and then fit the evidence to their conclusion. Do you all seriously dispute this?

Except scum's objective is to get mislynches, which means they are not going into it with preconceived conclusions, since they already know the other person's alignment and don't have to try to guess it. It is only confirmation bias if that person does not know the other one's alignment and then proceeds to fit evidence to a preconceived conclusion. That's the difference. If you believe someone to be scum, you don't say that they are suffering from confirmation bias, because that would be impossible. The only way you say that is if you believe the person doing the tunneling is town. Therefore, you saying that Nacho is suffering from confirmation bias belies a belief or knowledge that he's town, and the only faction that would have such alignment knowledge would be scum. Appearance has nothing to do with it. This has to do with the way YOU are reading the game, and you have displayed foreknowledge of Nacho's alignment being town, which means you are scum and scumslipped.

So what are you going to do when I flip town?

I'm trying my best to tell explain to you how I'm using the term, and you just don't want to hear it. If it serves everyone's wincon, town or scum, to appear town, and scum MUST secure mislynches, like you said, then the only way they can do that without garnering suspicion themselves is to secure a ML in a townie way. You have admitted that this is a matter of word choice, that even though I am

telling you that in my understanding, using confirmation bias and summily tunneling someone are the same thing when everyone must appear town

, I am scum because I said confirmation bias and not scummily tunneling.

[Desperado]

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum.

While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself

, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

Yes, thank you.

@ the bolded: When did my read flip on Nacho?

[Desperado]

anyways desperado you don't have to sell the os lynch to me I am ready to vote him off of that one post plus he isn't doing much in this gamthe case needs to be sold to everybody else

This:

look at your reaction to town coming together and then look at overlysoul's reaction and see how they are different, look at the motivation behind the 2 reactions and see how they are different. you want to avoid getting lynched then help me drum up some overlysoul business.

I am not good at making cases that is not what makes me a decent mafia player it is that I know how to find and coordinate with town I can do this fast and early with players that I am familiar with as long as I can keep my balance early in a game. when I get knocked off balance it takes me a long time to recover.

Read like you were asking me to help build a case on OS, which is what I did.

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

What the hell? You just said this:

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

So you have personal experience, as town, with being able to deduce that another player is resorting to confirmation bias, and that me saying that Nacho is using confirmation bias doesn't necessarily make me scum. So which is it?

That is assuming that Desperado is ignorant town unwilling to learn about what certain terminology means. However, I believe the opposite. These posts fit with the pattern that he's established of arguing a point into the ground in an attempt to find any little way to discredit the opposing argument. His points in these cases never change, even if they've been disproven. It seems to be a way to turn the argument into pure noise so that town stops paying attention, and in so doing, discredit the argument itself and make it go away. As such, I believe that I've explained my points as well as I can, and I'm going to attempt to move on. If he wants to actually discuss the merits of the case and/or bring up something new concerning the current one, then I will engage, but if he is just going to run the same old points into the ground, I, as well as the town, am better off ignoring him.

Please support all of these claims with evidence.

Desp, you're backing down by moving your vote from Nacho (reasons to why, I still don't fully understand. what of Angel did you see that was scummy) to Angel who, I percieve to be, an easier target to 1v1 with. the fact that you went back to Nacho after I called you out for backing down is note-worthy

This is so frustrating. I voted AA9 because syry had developed a meta read on Arc that I agreed with and could support with personal experience. I thought it would be valuable to apply my vote to her wagon in order to garner a reaction from her that could be read. She proceeded to OMGUS the shit out of me, which was explicitly counter to the read that Syry had put forth. I've stated this

repeatedly

, so why are you unsure of my motivations?

Regardless of that, how is following another lead "backing down?" And why are you so arrogant as to assume that you saying something about me backing down (an accusation that I have only disputed) had anything at all to do with me going back on Nacho?

I totally forgot to do this earlier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Desperado

I wanna hear from the penguin.

Still waiting on that case you said you had coming.

Speaking of which, you absolutely come off worst with the Baby Spice fiasco. You were convinced that penguin's slot was scum in #2197, Seanald asks you why/by what in #2999, you blatantly deflect the question here:

Hello Seanald. Who are your scumreads and brief reasoning why?

PS: I'll answer you if you answer me

And then are saved from ever having to address it by a) seanald not first answering your asinine question, and b) Baby Spice replacing out. So what convinced you that Spice was scum?

[Desperado]

Yeah I read your 2204. Spice responded to every point you made, up and and including indicting you for the way you posted it. Fortunately for you, as I said, she replaced out right after and you...don't mention her again. So I guess you could also respond to that post of hers, or just hope it goes away which is clearly what you had intended.

[Desperado]

That is assuming that Desperado is ignorant town unwilling to learn about what certain terminology means. However, I believe the opposite. These posts fit with the pattern that he's established of arguing a point into the ground in an attempt to find any little way to discredit the opposing argument. His points in these cases never change, even if they've been disproven. It seems to be a way to turn the argument into pure noise so that town stops paying attention, and in so doing, discredit the argument itself and make it go away. As such, I believe that I've explained my points as well as I can, and I'm going to attempt to move on. If he wants to actually discuss the merits of the case and/or bring up something new concerning the current one, then I will engage, but if he is just going to run the same old points into the ground, I, as well as the town, am better off ignoring him.

Please support all of these claims with evidence.

I'm mainly referring you your argument with Nacho regarding the CTD point. It is apparent that you are trying to do anything you can do discredit Nacho, especially when you consider: 1.) Nacho never mentioned CTD in his case against you 2.) You brought CTD into the argument. 3.) Nacho never mentioned you "vaguely supporting" massclaim/CTD. 4.) Nacho never found CTD to be town BECAUSE of his DLG case. 5.) You trying to gain towncred via Nacho's townread on CTD and CTD's similar read of DLG is scummy in and of itself and is also CIC.

Essentially, you created an argument that did not exist, and whenever Nacho or somebody else tried to explain it to you, you simply argued all the louder, essentially creating an Argument from Repetition. This quickly just devolved into noise, as before long, nobody really wanted to hear about it anymore.

Yeah I read your 2204. Spice responded to every point you made, up and and including indicting you for the way you posted it. Fortunately for you, as I said, she replaced out right after and you...don't mention her again. So I guess you could also respond to that post of hers, or just hope it goes away which is clearly what you had intended.

Scum post.

1) He sure didn't, but he DID say that my reads on DLG were weak while simultaneously praising CTD for his scumhunting activities, which included a case on DLG that reflected my thoughts.
2) Yes, because Nacho's reads w/r/t our slots were different when our play dictated otherwise.
3)

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit.

Vaguely supports massclaim

, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

4)

He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans

The only substantial case CTD has come up with to that point was on DLG, so what else was he talking about here if not that? Why did he lie about it when he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him" and then backtrack later and say that it was "the way CTD pushed his case?"
5) No I'm not. I'm pointing out inconsistencies in Nacho's reads. Inconsistency is a scumtell for me. Do you disagree?

And really great analysis there. What's scummy about asking Syry to respond to a post that was made in response to something he thinks was the final word on the subject?

[Desperado]

Essentially, you created an argument that did not exist, and whenever Nacho or somebody else tried to explain it to you, you simply argued all the louder, essentially creating an Argument from Repetition. This quickly just devolved into noise, as before long, nobody really wanted to hear about it anymore.

This deserved it's own post.

You say I "created an argument that didn't exist" when, from my perspective, I was engaging another player who had expressed a strong scumread on me in an attempt to understand why and their responses either a) demonstrated a clear misunderstanding of what I had said ("CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported a mass claim"), or b) a complete unwillingness to engage me in discussion ("stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell"), and I know my alignment, then I'm going to assume they are scum that doesn't want to go into detail about their read on me because it's manufactured.

[Desperado]

@Desp 2259, in which I should use quote blocks but don't feel like it:
Syryana is not deflecting in 2200. The only one looking bad after "the Baby Spice fiasco" is Baby Spice, and maaaaaybe Red Ryu.

the confirmation bias point has to mean you think Nacho is town. That's how you solve the apparent contradiction between thezmon's posts. If you insist that you hadn't flipped your read on Nacho, give how convinced those posts seemed, yeah, you're scum.

We understand your reasoning for voting Arc in a vacuum, it just doesn't make sense in context, where you were hardcore sold on Nacho. Your confirmation bias points read as backing down or admitting you're scum. It's hard for me to get something other than one of those things out of them. I am always wary of the 'scumslip' theory, as I don't think I've ever seen one be correct, but without this point the case on you is still easily solid enough to have my vote.

No. It. Doesn't. Is there any evidence is this thread,

anywhere

, where I say that my scumread on Nacho has gone away? That does not have to do with me saying he is using confirmation bias? No, because it doesn't exist, I don't think that, and you and Bulb and Nacho are using an incredibly narrow definition of confirmation bias, and what it means to say that another player is using it, to tell

me

what

I

meant when I said it, and thus justify voting me because you

don't have any other relevant reasons to do so.

No one has explained to me how leaving the Nacho wagon to follow another lead is scummy, period. You all keep saying it is, but no reason beyond "but you were so sure nacho was scum!!!" has been given, as if I can't have multiple scumreads at the same time, or use my vote however I see fit. I very clearly stated why I was voting Arc, my vote got a reaction out of her as I intended it to, and then I went back to Nacho. Explain to me in detail your definition of scumhunting and why that doesn't qualify.

[Desperado]

3)

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit.

Vaguely supports massclaim

, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Point retracted. I need to stop reading these games so late at night...

However, I would say that I agree with Nacho on this. Simply saying, "I support massclaim for all the reasons CTD said" is not adequate, as you simply sheeped someone else's reasons without providing any of your own, or at least putting those reasons in your own words. Did you support massclaim? Yes. Were you a staunch supporter of it? No.

That still isn't vague. I was very clear I supported CTD's idea wholeheartedly for every reason he posted, because he summed it up in such a way as to render any further additions redundant.

4)

He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans

The only substantial case CTD has come up with to that point was on DLG, so what else was he talking about here if not that? Why did he lie about it when he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him" and then backtrack later and say that it was "the way CTD pushed his case?"

Nacho is talking about CTD's massclaim idea, and how he used it to scumhunt afterwards.

No he isn't. "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardlass of his massclaiming shenanigans." This is Nacho explicitly referring to CTD's reads that did NOT stem from his massclaim analysis, and the only one that fits that description is his case on DLG.

5) No I'm not. I'm pointing out inconsistencies in Nacho's reads. Inconsistency is a scumtell for me. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree that inconsistency is a scumtell, but Nacho wasn't being inconsistent. If you read his original town-case on CTD, it had to do with CTD's push for massclaim and how he used the information gathered after the fact in order to scumhunt. At no point does he mention CTD's scumread of DLG. That is actually brought up in a different case, the DLG-scum case.

His push on you was not that he disagreed with your scumread, but that you didn't put much effort into reading and responding to the 4 posts that DLG had made during your initial case. Essentially, you wrote them off, and Nacho found that to be scummy.

He wasn't being inconsistent?!?! I've pointed out multiple times where he was inconsistent, but I'll do it again: when I responded the first time he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him" and later he said "It wasn't just the case, it was the way he was pushing the case." What is this besides inconsistency?

And really great analysis there. What's scummy about asking Syry to respond to a post that was made in response to something he thinks was the final word on the subject?

Because:

1.) Due to Baby Spice's replacing out, there was no need to respond to it. It would be a waste of time and space, and the town has better things to do than get caught up in that.

2.) BS's response and original attack against Nacho were terribad, and had she not replaced out, even I was going to show why. The attack consisted of mainly calling Nacho a liar as many times as she could in an effort to try to trick town into thinking he's scummy and discredit him. As I said, it reminded me of Om's attack against me. Her actual points were laughable and easily disproven and countered. Trust me, it wouldn't take much to take her points apart like an Oreo.

3.) You were attacking Syryana for attacking Baby Spice (possible chainsaw defending?). And the way you were doing so was a clear misrep of his actions. I essentially saw it as you trying to use broad strokes to paint Syryana as scummy as possible, instead of investigating possible intent.

Let me get this straight. Syry makes an unexplained jump onto the Baby Spice wagon because he was "convinced." Seanald asked him to elaborate, and he deflected by asking Seanald a question that he had to answer before Syry would reveal what was so convincing. Eventually Syry does explain why, but Baby Spice refutes all of his points, calls him scummy for the way he posted it, and then replaces out. Syry never brings it up again. And now I'm scummy for "chainsaw defending" Baby Spice by asking Syry to justify his wagon hop? What am I defending the slot from, exactly? Everyone unvoted her after she replaced out.

the confirmation bias point has to mean you think Nacho is town. That's how you solve the apparent contradiction between thezmon's posts. If you insist that you hadn't flipped your read on Nacho, give how convinced those posts seemed, yeah, you're scum.

No. It. Doesn't. Is there any evidence is this thread,

anywhere

, where I say that my scumread on Nacho has gone away? That does not have to do with me saying he is using confirmation bias? No, because it doesn't exist, I don't think that, and you and Bulb and Nacho are using an incredibly narrow definition of confirmation bias, and what it means to say that another player is using it, to tell

me

what

I

meant when I said it, and thus justify voting me because you

don't have any other relevant reasons to do so.

So what you're saying is that Nacho, Cephrir, Thez, B&B, myself, and who knows how many others who have experience in such matters are wrong, and you are right? Do you know how ignorant that makes you sound?

From the Mafiascum wiki: "Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them." Scum cannot be convinced by their own argument, since they already know it to be false. Therefore, the only ones who could would be town. You said that Nacho was suffering from confirmation bias. Ergo, you called Nacho town. How clearer can I make it?

If you don't get it now, you are clearly not trying to, which means you are scum, and any future posts from you refuting this matter should be treated as scum posting.

Where did I ever say you guys are

wrong?

I've maintained from the start that my definition and yours are different, and you have done nothing but tell me what I meant when I said something.

And your assertion that "scum cannot be convinced by their own argument, since they already know it to be false" when their survival in the game depends on appearing to be town without alignment knowledge is just astounding. Thez

just admitted

that he's done what I did as town, and then somehow comes to the conclusion that I must be scum for doing it. How am I supposed to take that seriously?

[Desperado]

Bulb, if you're going to play the reading comprehension card, then what does this mean:

"He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans."

Please enlighten me as to what this means and what Nacho was referring to.

Furthermore... "You never asked him to justify his hop. You accused him of being scummy for it. There's a difference."

And then are saved from ever having to address it by a) seanald not first answering your asinine question, and b) Baby Spice replacing out.

So what convinced you that Spice was scum?

Please take your own advice, including this:

These posts fit with the pattern that he's established of arguing a point into the ground in an attempt to find any little way to discredit the opposing argument. His points in these cases never change, even if they've been disproven. It seems to be a way to turn the argument into pure noise so that town stops paying attention, and in so doing, discredit the argument itself and make it go away. As such, I believe that I've explained my points as well as I can, and I'm going to attempt to move on. If he wants to actually discuss the merits of the case and/or bring up something new concerning the current one, then I will engage, but if he is just going to run the same old points into the ground, I, as well as the town, am better off ignoring him.

Based on your play in this game, you seem to revel in the nitty gritty, arguing things into the ground style of play, and it's just weird to see this in your ISO and then...the rest of your ISO, which is almost exclusively long, drawn out arguments that never amount to anything (with myself, Om, bacde, Ryu, etc.) You're always right, and you don't argue case merit, you argue word choice, semantics, and logical fallacies and then call it scumhunting.

I bet you're wrong a lot, aren't you? Not everyone is an automaton...players are guaranteed to make mistakes as either alignment, get caught in your web of neverending quote boxes and buzzwords, and eventually just give up under the sheer weight of it all. But your conscience is clean because you went by the book.

@ Kublai Khan: I'd be willing to vote OS with you. The Nacho wagon hasn't gotten a new vote in over a week, so I no longer consider him a viable candidate for today, so:

Unvote
Vote: Oversoul

<<< Fixed quote tags. >>>

[Desperado]

Bulb, if you're going to play the reading comprehension card, then what does this mean:

"He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans."

"He didn't just push the massclaim and then do nothing else. He actively engaged in the thread and was able to scumhunt and find scumreads and townreads."

It is referring to CTD actively engaging in the thread, instead of just being generally useless after his massclaim push (unlike Oversoul).

Yes it is. Now that activity...what does it include? What's the only read that CTD has developed that did not stem from the massclaim push? His case on DLG!

Except when I asked him about it later, he said CTD's case on DLG had "absolutely nothing to do with" his townread. When I reminded him that he had, in fact, included said case in his townread on CTD, his answer to that was that it wasn't just the case, but the way he pushed it. Which is both a) inconsistency, and b) moving goalposts.

And Ceph, I am not "arguing with what the word means." I'm well aware of the definition of confirmation bias, or I wouldn't have used the term. What I am arguing against is the notion that only town players can exhibit confirmation bias. It's ludicrous. If every player's wincon depends on them appearing town, and players unquestionably exhibit confirmation bias, how do you reconcile that conclusion?

Nothing

prevents

a scum aligned player from using confirmation bias in their argument, and no one has satisfactorily told me why not. "Scum already know everyone's alignment, and confirmation bias requires that they not know" does not fly

when scum must appear to be town in order to win.

Nacho started with the premise "Desperado is scum" and has fit all of the evidence to his conclusion. Textbook confirmation bias. Has nothing to do with his alignment.

[Desperado]

If a scum aligned player is pretending to use confirmation bias you wouldn't say that they have confirmation bias you'd say they were faking confirmation bias. Your post implied he actually had it, and don't tell me that's not what you meant because all the words around those two point to the same thing iirc.

And now we're back to word choice and telling me what I meant. My scum read on Nacho never wavered, yet you and Bulb and Nacho are trying to say that by saying he exhibits confirmation, I was subconsciously

admitting

that he's town.

Are you seriously suggesting that all I needed to say was "faking confirmation bias" as opposed to "he has confirmation bias" to render this whole argument moot?

[Desperado]

This is about you claiming that Nacho has confirmation bias, instead of just saying that he is scummily tunneling you.

This has been your position the entire time. Word choice. When I asked, you clarified again:

But it is word choice crucial in presenting your perception of events and alignments. Instead of saying that Nacho was scum that was tunneling you, you instead said he was succumbing to confirmation bias, which betrays a perception of Nacho as town, which contradicts everything you've said.

So what am I misrepping? Even though I've been completely transparent about what I meant when I said that Nacho is exhibiting confirmation bias, you are telling me that because I said "He is using confirmation bias" and not "he is faking confirmation bias" or "he is scummily tunnelling me" it is proof positive of me being scum, when

all three of those are functionally identical in my opinion and I have no wavered from this stance throughout the entire exchange regarding this issue

.

[Desperado]

I can't speak for anyone else but that would have been sufficient for me. Bacde, it would be a shitty case if this was the whole case but it's like 1% of the case

Explain the other 99% in detail please

[Desperado]

The reason I'm asking you, specifically, Cephrir is because you had me "winning" the original argument with nacho, and only started voting me after Bulb started pushing the conf bias case really hard. So...what are you referring to exactly?

[Desperado]

Words mean something, Desperado. That's why sometimes it's important to find out why someone said X instead of Y. It's why it is possible to catch scum slipping. What a person said and what that means is just as important a scumhunting tool as examining a player's actions (which, incidentally, we must also interpret in order to catch scum). So, no, I'm not going to look the other way, just because you say to. You made a deliberate word choice which betrayed your actual thoughts and knowledge. I caught you, and no amount of "No. That's not what I said/meant. I'm using a different definition than all of you." is going to stop me from actually looking into the motives of why you would do so. You are telling us to stop delving into the meaning of what you said, which is, in fact, telling us to stop scumhunting and looking at you, which is scummy in and of itself.

I've never once questioned you for asking me why I said what I said, I have consistently been questioning the conclusions that you have drawn from our discussion. Please show me where I have told you to stop delving into the meaning of what I said.

[Desperado]

So your case against me is a bunch of (unspecified) things that Nacho said?

[Desperado]

Just making sure that you are committing to sheeping Nacho for future reference

[Desperado]

Could you be any more vague about it?

[Desperado]

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

What the hell? You just said this:

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

So you have personal experience, as town, with being able to deduce that another player is resorting to confirmation bias, and that me saying that Nacho is using confirmation bias doesn't necessarily make me scum. So which is it?

Your question doesn't make sense. It sounds like it's all the same statement, to me. I never believed you were scummy for declaring usage of confirmation bias. I said you were scummy because of the exact reason of the first quote. Generally when one states the other is using confirmation bias, it is submitting to the fact that they are town. In this case, you submitted to Nacho being town. However, you kept your scumread on him, which shows an abnormal waver in your read.

It appeared as if you had an unjustified 180 flip on him, but now it looks like your application of confirmation bias is merely shit.

Confirmation bias is just about always going to be a town/pro-town (including most survivors and other roles that fit in this category, but are not explicitly town) action. As I said before, the scum knows whether you are town or scum. This means that the factor of confirmation bias is completely taken out with them, since they already know your alignment.

Confirmation bias is the conceived notion that they have already determined your alignment and developed a case around it.

They don't know your alignment, but they think you are X alignment, which is generally scum.

It is very hard to feign for most mafia players unless they are very scummy

.

@Waylan: Do you still want my actual, typed case, or are you content with the quote that Cephrir (?) provided?

@ Bolded: or yours is too narrow. Confirmation bias is approaching an argument with a preconceived conclusion and then fitting the evidence to fit your conclusion. If the scum's job is to secure MLs, and they must do this while also appearing to be town, then please,

please

tell me why it is

completely implausible

for scum to employ confirmation bias in their argument, and how this correlation is so strong that, even though I've repeatedly said the opposite, I just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about and I scumslipped end of story why aren't more people voting him.

Also, my understanding is that Nacho IS a very good player who WOULD be fully capable of feigning it, so why is it so hard for you and Bulb and Ceph to see my side of this? Why are you so content to just tell me what I meant and vote me on a nonexistent scumslip? It's lazy, and its narrow minded.

[Desperado]

@ Bolded: or yours is too narrow. Confirmation bias is approaching an argument with a preconceived conclusion and then fitting the evidence to fit your conclusion. If the scum's job is to secure MLs, and they must do this while also appearing to be town, then please,

please

tell me why it is

completely implausible

for scum to employ confirmation bias in their argument, and how this correlation is so strong that, even though I've repeatedly said the opposite, I just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about and I scumslipped end of story why aren't more people voting him.

It's impossible for scum to employ confirmation bias because they

already know

your alignment. The only way they could possibly commit confirmation bias is through saying that you are so townie and everything you do is townie, however you accused Nacho of the very obvious. Scum already know that X person is town, so they can't go in with a confirmation bias that said person is scum, because they know that this person isn't scum. The only preconceived notion they may possess is that the person is obvtown. The only possible instance where they could ever actually commit confirmation bias in a scum way (being what Nacho supposedly did) would be a bus, because he then actually has the notion that you are scum, and is able to fit his evidence to scumminess.

This is not a satisfactory explanation. If Nacho is scum, he must secure MLs. In order to secure MLs, he must get townies lynched. How does he accomplish this without garnering suspicion himself? By doing it a townie way, in this case by exhibiting confirmation bias in his treatment of me.

In the process of appearing to be town, Nacho has resorted to a logically faulty approach in which he starts with the premise that I am scum and fits the evidence to his conclusion. Your adherence to the assertion that "scum can't do it because they know your alignment already and its so hard to fake!" when the reason that confirmation bias is such a logically faulty approach is precisely due to how easy and disingenuous it is AND the scum's success in any given game is entirely dependent on their ability to fake towntells and not get lynched is where my issue lies.

Bottomline: I refuse to accept that scum are incapable of conf bias, and if calling Nacho out for using it in his argument against me gets me lynched then so be it.

Also, my understanding is that Nacho IS a very good player who WOULD be fully capable of feigning it, so why is it so hard for you and Bulb and Ceph to see my side of this? Why are you so content to just tell me what I meant and vote me on a nonexistent scumslip? It's lazy, and its narrow minded.

I never knew I was voting for you. And by that I mean, I never voted for you. I don't think you realized that I was on your side in this instance until you unnecessarily blew it up. I challenged Bulb's point against you by saying it was weak, but then I made a side statement saying how confirmation bias is submitting to the fact that a person is town.

Sorry, I took your cheerleading of Bulb to be a tacit approval of his vote. You challenged Bulb's point as weak, and then...immediately agreed with it and have three separate responses that are in support of Bulb's point. So why are you simultaneously backing up Bulb's point, which you thought was weak, while claiming that you "were on my side?" I don't understand.

[Desperado]

This:

Confirmation bias is the conceived notion that they have already determined your alignment and developed a case around it. They don't know your alignment, but they think you are X alignment, which is generally scum.

It is very hard to feign for most mafia players unless they are very scummy.

Reads to me like you are supporting your assertion (that scum can't have confirmation bias because they already know the other player's alignment) by saying that it is too hard to fake unless they are really good. Can you clarify what you meant by that?

It was merely a side note of mine, and I had no intention of actually arguing it. I challenged Bulb's premise for the post, and then, like I said, you blew up the point and

forced me to argue against you in a way that supposedly puts me in conjunction with Bulb.

I still don't think you're scummy, just that one instance.

Are you disputing that you are supporting Bulb's point almost word for word? How are you "supposedly" in conjunction with Bulb when this is how your exchange occurred:

Bulb's original point:

This just tells me that you aren't even reading what I'm saying and are just trying to discredit the argument. The point is that scum don't suffer from confirmation bias, because they KNOW who is not on their team (confirmation bias depends on not knowing). Ergo, they know who is not scum. Therefore, any tunneling they do is driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and not confirmation bias.

You called him out saying it was weak and he responded with:

How is that weak? Desperado implied knowledge of Nacho being town when he said Nacho was suffering from confirmation bias. Since he has said that he thinks that Nacho is scum, this can only mean that Desperado scum slipped when trying to discredit Nacho's push, and has thereby confirmed Nacho to be town. Ergo, Desperado is scum. How is that hard to understand?

And your response was:

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

Which you immediately followed up with:

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

This just tells me that you aren't even reading what I'm saying and are just trying to discredit the argument. The point is that scum don't suffer from confirmation bias, because they KNOW who is not on their team (confirmation bias depends on not knowing). Ergo, they know who is not scum. Therefore, any tunneling they do is driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and not confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

So if you thought it was weak, why are you basically parroting said weak point less than 30 posts later?

[Desperado]

Does anyone else fellow the desperado/thezmon/cephrir debate is kinda going nowhere?

Start talking about something else, then.

Maybe why you're still on the BS slot when there is support for your OS case.

[Desperado]

Bulb, you aren't trying to teach me anything, that's the problem. You've never approached this situation from the perspective of "I'm town, Desp might be town, let me teach him why he's wrong and I'm right." You started with the premise that I had scumslipped and attacked me, repeatedly. So if your intent was to show me the error of my ways, you failed...if it was to provoke a reaction from me that you could use to paint me as scummy, then you succeeded.

And the best part is, let's say you had approached it that way...I don't have to agree with you! You are not the arbiter of what things mean. The site meta regarding what it means when someone says confirmation bias vs. scummily tunneling someone is irrelevant when we are only considering this individual case, in which I was 100% transparent by what I meant when I said Nacho was resorting to confirmation bias, and was not unwittingly admitting that I knew he was town.

I am allowed to believe that scum can use confirmation bias (a logical fallacy, which I'm sure you're aware, and thus not a valuable scumhunting tool for a town player that hopes to actually lynch scum) in the process of securing the MLs necessary for them to win. The notion that only town players are capable of exhibiting confirmation bias

baffles me.

With that said, you are allowed to (wrongly) lynch me for thinking that because of whatever experience you have that says that I slipped. When I flip town maybe you'll recalibrate your tells.

[Desperado]

I suppose I can see how Desp could be flailing town. I think I've been tunneling. He does kind of remind me of the way I flail as town. What do I do when deadline is approaching and I'm not sure about any of the three leading wagons? Seeing as P_A is looking pretty okay for not taking one of the easy ways out of her own possible lynch. I guess I'll pick one of the options I still like.

Unvote, Vote: Haylen

Almost as happy voting Oversoul; would compromise for Desperado, P_A or Thor though I wouldn't be excited about the latter two.

Me, penguin, you, Khan, and B&TB would make 5 on OS, which with your unvote would be tied for the lead wagon. Plus, OS (who you are happy to lynch) is also voting Haylen...who seems town so far in the way she's catching up. I don't see scum promising so much future content (#2348) when not following through could easily backfire on them.

[Desperado]

btw Slandaar has become a solidified townread of mine for this page

I don't think Nacho is going to happen today. See here and here for the OS case, and vote for him afterwards.

I agree with you about slandaar.

[Desperado]

In post 2268, Desperado wrote:Yes, because Nacho's reads w/r/t our slots were different when our play dictated otherwise.


have you and CTD played exactly the same?
no.

I was never trying to argue that we were, I was honestly just trying to understand your process. But point taken.

In post 2326, Desperado wrote:Bottomline: I refuse to accept that scum are incapable of conf bias, and if calling Nacho out for using it in his argument against me gets me lynched then so be it.


Desperado's town.

Yup. Mollie thinks you are too, and I trust her opinion right now.

I know you were/have been reading OS as town but check the two posts linked ^^^^ and tell me what you think (or tell me you've already answered and I'll go find it).

Thor/Bulba/Ceph/Fuzzy and Thez although I prefer the other 4. Nacho said something a while back that is only ever being said if its multiball so lynch him tomorrow if it is otherwise hes town.

Everyone needs to pick one of the 5 named and vote.

Just sheep me now, there has been enough talk.

As I outlined above, OS is absolutely a viable wagon right now. Replace Thor and bulb with OS and Ryu (their "why were you voting me?" aside is fake as fuck imo) and I agree with your list though.

[Desperado]

Le't do this.

VOTE: Oversoul

Nothing to say about one of your major suspects starting and coalescing a wagon on one of your other major suspects?

Seems like something a townie would point out as he hopped from one to the other.

The thing with Desperado: I normally want to think the best of players, so when I see someone do something like he did, it's better to think scum than town who refuses to listen, discuss, or learn. I don't get that mindset coming from a town player. It bewilders me. However, Desperado has just started doing something which he has staunchly refused to do when defending himself: scumhunt.

It's a two way street man. The only disposition I ever got from your posts was hostility and authority...you're right, and I'm so wrong that the only logical conclusion is that I scumslipped. Despite my best efforts to explain my position (which is what this is...a disagreement, not a school lesson), you continued to talk down to me, which, as I've said, is just about the least effective way to teach anyone anything.

With that said, I can appreciate that you identified something distinct and provided consistent reasoning for reaching the conclusion that you did, regardless of the way you went about pursuing it, which is why you're on my town list. What do you think of the thez/Ceph echo chamber?

Given the recent posts, that was the one thing I needed to see to even consider him remotely being town. I'll have to reread him later, but I'm starting to fear that this will be Metal Overlord all over again...

Link?

[Desperado]

Oh, and Bulb can't link it; it's an ongoing. At least if it's the game I'm thinking of.

Guess I have some research to do.

I like that answer though. That's a good attitude to have D1.

Is the case that you kept promising on me even worth asking about anymore or should we just move on?

[Desperado]

yeah no talking about ongoing games I mean that rule is pretty clear

He was answering a question I had just asked him.

[Desperado]

WTF?

are we seriously Lynching OS? that dude is town as fuck.

tomorrow, we get scum.

~Mara

thats generally the objective, sorry but this post came off as fake as mollie's tits. ohhhhh woulda been a good burn but I don't think the end of that statement is true.

I find it mildly terrifying when I come into the thread, read something, go "damn, I completely agree with this", look at the author, and find it's Seanald.

Also, @the Mollie/Jiffy/Nero/Rena/whoever catfight going on up there, you lot need to stop it and vote Oversoul. You're all town, and you all need to deal with it.

+1

Also, @the Mollie/Jiffy/Nero/Rena/whoever catfight going on up there, you lot need to stop it and vote Oversoul.

How about you vote obvscum Nero?

Someone asked you a page or two ago what your Nero case was and you basically said "look at this page!" I'm not seeing what you guys saw so in your own words please?

Her meta change hasn't really been gradual; her town game's been getting more aggressive to compensate for my changing scum style, but her scum game is still the same. She just prefers playing town more; look at players like Empire, Tierce, Tammy. They've had a while to fix their scumgames, but they're still open books to people familiar with their meta.

guys this post is nacho pretty much admitting that he is scum

he got all stoked previously about me unvoting him because he had me fooled

anyway VOTE: nacho

Same here. Is this some kind of trend? "guys this post is nacho pretty much admitting that he is scum" is lazy. Expecting everyone else to be able to interpret things precisely how you did is foolhardy. Use your words and explain where, and how, Nacho admitted he's scum.

Do we know what the record is for "voting the same player the most number of times in a game day"? Bacde is really gunning for the title.

Are you going to go anywhere with this or just point out that he's voted a lot? What does him gunning for that title say about his alignment?

[Desperado]

Yes Majiffy, I'm a "fucking dolt" because I interpreted "look at this page!" as "just look at what Nero has been saying!" and not "I already said it." Why didn't you just link that person in the first place?

[Desperado]

Good, I look forward to both of you leaving and being replaced by players that actually

want to play the game

.

No you're pretty much just being insufferable. You called me a fucking dolt because I misinterpreted something that you said. What's more likely...that you're being such a dick that multiple people have replaced out/have threatened to do so solely because of your attitude, or you're right and they're just pussies?

[Desperado]

Good, I look forward to both of you leaving and being replaced by players that actually

want to play the game

.

No you're pretty much just being insufferable. You called me a fucking dolt because I misinterpreted something that you said. What's more likely...that you're being such a dick that multiple people have replaced out/have threatened to do so solely because of your attitude, or you're right and they're just pussies?

I am trying to diffuse the situ can you plz not throw gasoline on it tia

Quoting this just in case people still aren't realizing that Desperado is scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Desperado

Oversoul wagon doesn't appeal to me, the wagon composition makes me cringe.

~

This vote makes me laugh. I read B&TB as town and a) was one of the people Majiffy insulted and b) wasn't throwing gasoline on the fire, I was calling the situation for what it was. I also think Khan and Haylen are town and he was acting in a manner that was detrimental to our success. I was hoping that, by seeing the ridiculousness of the question posed to him, he would calm down. I think his answer to my question shows that I was at least partially successful. Do you have a case on me that I have since forgotten? Link it, or just cliffnotes it.

[Desperado]

Um...what? My wagon hasn't been a subject for several pages. And considering I never ignored it or tried to "sneak it away unnoticed" when it was actually the leading subject of the game, why would I try to do that now?

Nothing about that question was purposely inflammatory. I think Majiffy is town. He was acting in a manner that was causing two of my other townreads (who have given valuable content and will likely continue to do so, something I can't necessarily expect from their replacements) to threaten to replace out.

Further considering that I was also the subject of his insults, I took it upon myself to show Majiffy that he was acting unreasonably.

So yeah, your justification pretty much sucks. Please tell me more about how I was trying to create noise to drown out my wagon when the majority of my activity in this game has been taking on my wagon head first.

[Desperado]

Well, at least you stuck with your second soft claim.

...eh, that post still feels fairly town and I think it flows with the logic of your fakeclaim gambit.

Yeah, let's lynch B&tB or Desperado.

so, you want to lynch B&B or Desp,

but you're gonna leave your vote on OS?

that makes sense

No he's voting me. Not sure what he meant in #2620 but he's been voting me since Monday, when he said this:

Unvote: Red Ryu
Vote: Desperado

Blatant counterwagon vote.
I'm ot even sure if I think Desp is scummy, he's just null.

Right then.

[Desperado]

Desperado
- I think his early cases are a bit forced.
- post 1501 tries to shut down a townread. I find scum are more likely to do this than town.
- I find it interesting that in 2140 he explains the case on OS and arguably soft pushes it, even though he is still voting nacho. (edit: he does vote oversoul later)
- he seems very quick to play down any cases or votes against him, claiming that they are vague or have no reasoning behind them when (as far as I can tell) that is definitely not always true.

- Such as?
- How is this an example of me "shutting down" a townread?

after a reread of page 59, I actually think the Om/HD hydra is town for the schizophrenia

it looks like a legitimate argument, not fabricated

How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).

I've read bacde as town all game and was questioning his thought process. Isn't that what town are supposed to do? Find each other and then bounce ideas off one another? Because bacde's reasoning for reading the Om hydra as town was bad--it was a playstyle issue, not an alignment tell, so I told him as such.
- What's interesting about it? Mollie asked me to help her build a case on OS, so I did.
- Can you link me to two examples of where I said something was vague or reasonless and it really wasn't?

[Desperado]

2 Shot BP

[Desperado]

Looking through his ISO quickly going to say he'll probably flip town. If I read right he fakeclaimed Informed Townie, but I saw some walls where he analyzed responses.

You didn't have enough time to look at those walls thoroughly, then. Because they were totally useless and his inability to cull anything useful from his "gambit" is one of the main reasons he's about to get lynched.

[Desperado]

I'm at work and haven't caught up with early day happenings but I am also a member of a neighborhood.

[Desperado]

Vote: Thezmon

but I'm explicitly not supporting your "I'm 100% on this but I can't say why because it's against the rules," Bacde. I just saw town say that about town in Micro 168 so just stop. You don't need to cheat to get Thez lynched, he's done more than enough in the context of this game to merit it.

[Desperado]

Vote: Thezmon

but I'm explicitly not supporting your "I'm 100% on this but I can't say why because it's against the rules," Bacde. I just saw town say that about town in Micro 168 so just stop. You don't need to cheat to get Thez lynched, he's done more than enough in the context of this game to merit it.

I can also go here, but I prefer AK.

Yeah I can see that. What is the your #1 reason for AKscum?

[Desperado]

I'm a forceful player. I could have easily killed the thezmon221 lynch if I wanted to. Instead I gave it life.

I doubt that.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[Desperado]

Didn't see that before, but re:3229, yes, I'm ThAd's neighbor. He's town.

Something in your QT that we don't know about?

[Desperado]

You're going to have to be more specific. DLG and ActionDan had confirmed themselves as town before the game had even started?

[Desperado]

I wonder what the mafia to town ratio is?

D1 is not my day. I read mosy everyone as null. anyone can play to appear town. which is why we even have town reads. The lynch and reasoning behind it is all that will stand out to me.

@Thezmon

Your reasonless list is nothing but filler. To paraphrase you, you said "Hey im here and im doing stuff, Im not done yet so it looks like im not doing anything".

Im bringing this to light because I see it as fluff and everyone else should too.

I dont know why your fluffy. But I dont care for it. Your life no linger matters to me. Plz fix that.

Also, Thad is scum because Hanzo is scum for ^^^this and ActionDan was scum for his reaction to the pre-day 1 stuff.

[Desperado]

Peregrine...you claim that DLG and actiondan confirmed themselves as town before day one started. You are more than capable of paraphrasing how they came to this conclusion. Or maybe you could even offer a hypothetical scenario where this would be possible. Because I'm drawing a blank.

@Arc; there is nothing to ignore. If I felt like your case was legitimate I would have addressed it, my behavior in this game makes that pretty clear. Who else is scum?

[Desperado]

Seanald.

[Desperado]

Seanald.

I knew someone had claimed it but forgot who...

When you claimed why didn't you claim him as your neighbour?

Didn't seem relevant and no one asked. People were trying to make alignment decisions based on the existence of neighborhoods, and as my neighborhood isn't relevant to my role, I didn't see any harm in making sure everyone was aware of all of the neighborhoods.

[Desperado]

Asking for a case isn't scummy, but I could do without the OMGUS that came with it.

1) Why me = fry me
2) She wasn't asking for a case
3) True that

[Desperado]

Ok, I'm about a third of the way through the thread, going to stop reading now because It's late and I can't think straight. The good news is I have 9 A4 pages worth of notes (on paper, need to transfer to ipad) so far and several scum reads. Yay!

Rena is any of this going to see the light of day? I had you as town because I didn't think scum would be bad enough to promise something like this and never deliver, and then you did. You mention them ("your notes") again in 2451, and you promise to be caught up overnight in 2488 (even though you already had tons of pages of notes and several reads???) but nothing ever comes of it. The best I can find is these

Pro-tip, careful with iso. You don't get everything in context.

Nacho, BeautyBeast, Koobla, OmDes are my town reads. Less sure on Beauty though.

Thor, Oversoul, Bacda, Nero are my scum reads.

I'm pondering over CTD.

No opinion on anyone else.

Wait, leaning scum on Ryu too.

Which are not at all reflective of all of the work you claim to have done. No reasons, no notes, TERRIBLE reads (seriously, Thorscum? Editing to add in Ryu as leaning scum and then voting bacde anyway?). Are you the last blue?

[Desperado]

Fair play. I can understand that.

Truth be told I'm beginning to doubt my BB read, not because of the meta thing but because the "everyone who reads me should know I'm town." Thing that comes with sheeping is protown as long as you're sheeping me. Since it has been so prevalent, I am not sure whether this is genuine scum leading town or town thinking everyone should know I'm town. What say you?

Its not omgus if it's true. I've always had a problem with people wanting to lynch others without giving them a chance to defend themselves.

You've had the abridged version of those notes, the majority of it was my distain over B+B's scummy actions.

That's all I see about ffullisade's slot in your ISO, as you surely aren't talking about Majiffy being a dick (which happened after you said you had your notes)

Vote: Rena

[Desperado]

EBWOP: there was also the time you called the Beast hydra town. Why are you lying about what your notes said?

Is it because they never existed?

[Desperado]

Are you deliberately misremembering to iso me as Haylen?

...no? How would I know that you had all these notes if I didn't ISO Haylen?

Why are you avoiding the question to ask something that should have been obvious?

[Desperado]

^ All of those posts referenced B+B and my line of questioning in some way shape or form.

Yes they are. And then after ALL of those posts, you call them town in #2531.

[Desperado]

Yeah I did. Because my opinion changed.

Cool. So your gobs and gobs of notes and "several scum reads," which apparently was limited to your "disdain" for B&TB's "scummy actions," are moot now? Because they are town.

So I ask again... are we ever going to get to see these notes?

[Desperado]

Bulb, you don't have anything to say about Peregrine and Thad claiming that ActionDan and DLG had confirmed themselves as town pre-game?

[Desperado]

You say that you remembered to ISO both accounts, yet you somehow miss all of those posts regarding B&B? I call bull crap.

I didn't miss the posts. I didn't find them relevant because after all of that, she still had them as a townread. So she claims to have a bunch of notes from the first 90 pages about scummy B&TB, she tangles with them extensively, and then they're just town at the end of it all.

And by her own admission, those scummy actions from B&TB were the vast majority of her "nine pages of notes and several scum reads." She's referenced the notes multiple times (specifically how they aren't currently in her possession) but can't even provide some surface commentary on what they are?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

[Desperado]

Bacde, get off Seanald. He isn't likely to be scum and he definitely isn't getting lynched today.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Nero Cain

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Nero Cain

Not sure what I was thinking here

Unvote
Vote: Amethyst Kitty

This is much better.

[Desperado]

Yo Desp

we are lynching nacho

I really don't think you're gonna get support for that lynch. If you can show me that you have the votes I'll change, but I'm more confident in push through an AK lynch

[Desperado]

Desperado? Are you going to sheep everyone and everything and not do an ounce of scum hunting?

I've been considering your lynch for a while now. I asked Nacho about it yesterday. You're pretty scummy.

So is this reaction. Which I just got from you by placing my vote on you.

How am I not scumhunting again?

[Desperado]

Desperado? Are you going to sheep everyone and everything and not do an ounce of scum hunting?

I've been considering your lynch for a while now. I asked Nacho about it yesterday. You're pretty scummy.

So is this reaction. Which I just got from you by placing my vote on you.

How am I not scumhunting again?

You have literally sheeped onto every highest wagon this game day so far.

You went onto Thad, Rena, Nero and us.

You're just jumping. Was Thad, Rena and Nero even scum reads for you prior?

This reaction is Mala catching up from the godawful mess everyone is making.

I solo'd out Mollie for a reason for the Thad read. Regardless of him claiming vig she caught him in the open finished game where 'Mara/Mala/Mollie' hydra'd together. I was reading him different, but wasn't going to stop a wagon to do wagon analysis sometime in the near future. I wanted to see what she would say, tbh.

Why are you making judgements on my votes if you don't know the answer to this question?

And you should stop using words like "literally" where they don't belong. I was the first vote on Thad.

[Desperado]

Desperado? Are you going to sheep everyone and everything and not do an ounce of scum hunting?

I've been considering your lynch for a while now. I asked Nacho about it yesterday. You're pretty scummy.

So is this reaction. Which I just got from you by placing my vote on you.

How am I not scumhunting again?

You have literally sheeped onto every highest wagon this game day so far.

You went onto Thad, Rena, Nero and us.

You're just jumping. Was Thad, Rena and Nero even scum reads for you prior?

This reaction is Mala catching up from the godawful mess everyone is making.

I solo'd out Mollie for a reason for the Thad read. Regardless of him claiming vig she caught him in the open finished game where 'Mara/Mala/Mollie' hydra'd together. I was reading him different, but wasn't going to stop a wagon to do wagon analysis sometime in the near future. I wanted to see what she would say, tbh.

Why are you making judgements on my votes if you don't know the answer to this question?

And you should stop using words like "literally" where they don't belong. I was the first vote on Thad.

You make it sound like I haven't, but I actually did. I just didn't read fully through it.

Why don't you stop deflecting and answer the question?

Nope I won't stop using literally. Don't nitpick my wording #1 pet peeve of mine.

If you had already did it then you would know that I had you as potential scum yesterday, and that I had some interactions with Thad on D1 that played into my read on him.

I won't nitpick your wording if it doesn't result in you saying something that is inaccurate. I did not "literally" voting every leading wagon if I was the first person to vote Thad.

Show me the distancing from Thezmon.

[Desperado]

I don't do 1vs1 get over yourself. 1vs1 don't help anyone in my mind and sometimes are used as a scum advantage because it gets everyone so wrapped up in it and people forget to hunt.

Wait, what? You called me scummy and vote for me when there's a wagon on thAdmiral going on. But when that wagon disintegrates and I vote you back, you back off?

She's also lying, because she was 100% ready to 1v1 me in Pokemon Nuzlocke before GNR went missing.

[Desperado]

I don't do 1vs1 get over yourself. 1vs1 don't help anyone in my mind and sometimes are used as a scum advantage because it gets everyone so wrapped up in it and people forget to hunt.

Wait, what? You called me scummy and vote for me when there's a wagon on thAdmiral going on. But when that wagon disintegrates and I vote you back, you back off?

She's also lying, because she was 100% ready to 1v1 me in Pokemon Nuzlocke before GNR went missing.

If Mara was speaking then this doesn't hold

[Desperado]

Actually, why are we voting AK given that if they are indeed scum there isn't a ton of evidence suggesting they're blue?

Because the only people who should care about that are red scum themselves.

[Desperado]

I'm pretty sure everyone has an interest in removing that nightkill from the game.

Yes but only redscum has an interest in prioritizing another lynch over AK solely because they probably aren't bluescum.

[Desperado]

no. I'm not gonna vote for Nacho. Not now or ever.

Cop this guy.

No fucking no.

Do not ever try and direct night actions.

Let the person who has the role do what they feel is right.

Plus

we don't

know if there's even a damn cop in the setup.

Shut up.

___

Nero:

How, theoretically speaking, are we Nacho's partner? That's if Nacho

flips

scum..

Also answer my damn question.

~Mala

Please show me a game where directing cop actions were beneficial? I don't think directing any type of investigation or protective roles are helpful because we don't know your alignment so we wouldn't know if you are scum trying to point us away from your buddies or you are scum directly fishing for information.

It's a bad idea. Knock it off.

~Mala

She directly implicates Ryu as scum twice (making it clear that she only sees scum motivation in directing night actions) without ever voting him or even bringing it up again later. Pretty blatant coaching.

[Desperado]

Bacde, show me you have the support for a Nacho lynch. Because I don't see it.

When you realize you don't, vote AK

[Desperado]

If we are assuming that this is multiball, then it is in town's best interest to eliminate a NK. Why would you not want to do so? And why would it be more important to eliminate Kitty rather than a NK?

But it is not in the town's best interest to derail a lynch because solely because they probably aren't bluescum. Which is what Cephrir said.

Please show me where I a) said I don't want to eliminate a NK, and b) said it would be more important to eliminate Kitty over eliminating a NK.

[Desperado]

Put another way: your questions would make sense if there was compelling evidence that someone else was bluescum and I was arguing for Kitty over them. Then it might make sense to ask me why I don't want to eliminate a NK.

But there isn't, so it doesn't.

[Desperado]

Desperado, I asked you why you think Seanald is likely town. Please indulge me.

Most of the same reasons PV/Thad give except I'm not proclaiming him obvtown. He isn't active in the QT but when he is his thoughts and mine largely line up. We trust the same people.

And given the two scumflips and plethora of other suspects I don't anticipate a scumflip from his slot.

I take it you disagree?

Really like your Thad points btw. But if there actually is a vig he'll be dead by tomorrow, and if he isn't dead as a claimed Vig we lynch him. Where do you stand on Kitty?

[Desperado]

Well my PV case was pretty good I thought; hes most likely the bluescum.

AK is red or town not blue.

I thought it was pretty good too but I'm talking about something more substantial than individual speculation. Bulb was approaching the issue as if we had confirmed bluescum in our grasp and I was arguing for Kitty over them, which ignores a lot of the context.

[Desperado]

To whoever suggested lynching Thad if he's alive tomorrow: You can do things like that if you don't say them, but once you say them it becomes WIFOM city.

WIFOM isn't something that needs to get introduced. It's inherent.

[Desperado]

PV and Thad
CTD and Slandaar
Desperado and Seanald

Thad claims X-Shot, not 2-Shot

Rena claims Watcher on Om and bacde with no results indicated

[Desperado]

Desperado, I asked you why you think Seanald is likely town. Please indulge me.

Most of the same reasons PV/Thad give except I'm not proclaiming him obvtown. He isn't active in the QT but when he is his thoughts and mine largely line up. We trust the same people.

And given the two scumflips and plethora of other suspects I don't anticipate a scumflip from his slot.

I take it you disagree?

To me, Seanald is a player that blends into the background. I haven't seen anything from him that straight up makes me think he's scum, but then I don't think I've seen all that much from him period.

Given this, I was curious how you came to take such a strong stance on him and whether your read on him was informed by stuff that's not on public record. I can accept your reasoning, but it's not really something I can build on.

Well I'm not really sure what you're categorizing as a strong stance. I told bacde to stop voting him because he isn't likely to flip scum and we have bigger fish to fry. The bold is basically how I feel about him, which puts him squarely in the "ignore until later" pile, which is pretty far away from the "lynch pile."

Really like your Thad points btw. But if there actually is a vig he'll be dead by tomorrow, and if he isn't dead as a claimed Vig we lynch him. Where do you stand on Kitty?

We have no indication that there is a vig in the game other than ThAd's claim. The general assumption has been two scum teams based on the blue scum flips, and kills have been consistent with that theory. If ThAd is fake-claiming, I don't see any reason to expect there to be a counter-by-kill

I'll have to get back to you wrt to Kitty. She's done stuff, I just haven't really been paying attention.

[/quote]

Don't dilly dally too long, once bacde and Nacho get back here I know we'll have AK at 6. Thad is better left to prove himself or die failing.

[Desperado]

Hey sweet you make seven

Vote AK

[Desperado]

I might trust it if you back up your meta reads with links. One each of frustrated mala town and easy to read mara scum.

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

That scum game is Mala, not Mara

[Desperado]

Nacho, why don't you want to lynch AK anymore?

[Desperado]

Why would red scum initiate a bus in this situation?

[Desperado]

Spoiler: Khan eviscerating Amethyst

1) though, if you want to look at someone who is badly pushing at Bacde that is scum I would look at Khan because of the fact that not only does he push Bacde terribly, be had better pushes to go after, pushes that he apparently believed in but suddenly dropped for him.

2) I am also under the impression that he is a better player than this.

3) I also find it strange that he pins CTD as super-obvious town, but he doesn't give Bacde the exact same extension even though he's done a shit-load for town with his "anti-town" play.

4) His case on Oversoul was just as bad, if not worse than yours

5) his other cases are just as shitty

6) he made a shallow case on us based on Oversoul flipping town, doesn't pursue it.

7) when I originally bring up my scum read on him, all he does is ask if anyone remembers our reads and, in doing such discrediting us

8) we

were

scummy enough to warrant a wagon, though he doesn't really initiate it but waits to see if others would do it first

9) Sheeps onto Thez, because of what Bacde said who he currently finds scummy...

10) I had to actually PUSH him to make a case on he, and all the things he is calling me out on has very shallow thought processes to them.

11) alot of his reasons for things are just as, even his reasons for why he thinks people are town.

1) "Badly" is a useless judgement call to make in a mafia game. Were my points bad? Was the timing bad? It sounds like you just hate my choice of targets which, given that we have a named mafia group (i.e. probably multiball), there is no evidence that Bacde isn't a non-blue scum.

2) Really? A burden of proficiency fallacy as your second point?

3) CrashTextDummie is breaking things point rationally and in a way that I can understand his thought process. Bacde spends 75 pages calling Nachomamma8 scum with little reasoning, then "Squirrel!" they are voting together for someone. Then back to calling Nachomamma8 scum. I don't understand Bacde and he's very reluctant to explain himself. So he doesn't get the same town-points that CrashTextDummie gets.

4) Again. "Bad". Well, your case on me is bad. Damn, that's much easier to say something is bad instead of saying something substantial.

5) Ooh, "shitty". What a vocab!

6) Sorry, was busy lynching your scum-buddy Red Ryu the next day.

7) No, I specifically addressed the fact that your scum-read on me is based on nothing but OMGUS. You

still

haven't given an alternative explanation for why I ever ended up on your scumlist.

8) WTF?

9) Are you calling me scummy for lynching scum?

10) So shallow that you haven't bothered to refute or provide alternative explanations?

11) Oh shit, did you forget to write "bad" there? That's the lynchpin of your whole case! You can't be forgetting that word!

Summary:

When I replaced in, I found four players to be very scummy when reading: (Oversoul, Red Ryu, you, and Baby Spice/penguin_alien). I only have one vote and it's incredibly inefficient to make four simultaneous cases. So Day 1 I pushed a case on Oversoul. After Day 2 started, Bacde made a good case on thezmon221, so you got put on the back burner a little longer. Day 3, Bacde opened with some posts that rubbed me the wrong way because his logic doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Since he is a very active player, I made on case on him and

even he acknowledged that my case had a lot of merit

. Then the ThAdmiral case started up. I didn't agree with it, but I didn't have any reason to debunk it either. So I spent some time questioning it. Then that crumbled, so it was suddenly the perfect time to put my cards on the table about why I find you scummy.

Besides the fact that I'm "bad" and saying "bad" things. The entirety of your case seems to revolve on the fact that I didn't drop everything and try to constantly ineffectually get you lynched no matter what else is happening in the game. You seem absolutely mystified about the concept of a back-burner. I think this exposes that you've really only been skimming the thread and looking for mentions of your name so you can try to defuse any potential wagon before they start. Like scum does. Because you're scum and that's bad.

Perfect.

Amethyst: can you explain how you went from this:

Please walk me trough the Despo town read. I'm just not seeing it.

to this:

Desp, Angel, Rena, as weaker town

without Mollie ever answering your question?

[Desperado]

^ that's just a bad reason Amethyst... even for your hydra

VOTE: amethyst

Really AA.
Lurking and now just toss a vote because I said something you don't like?

Try asking for clarification instead of just jumping on the highest wagon?

What's your thoughts on stuff? I mean you have been doing nothing other then lurking your ass off.

Now you're just lashing out at everyone.

<<< QUADRUPLE post deleted. o_O >>>

[Desperado]

Despo, Stop spamming!!!!

How am I spamming? AK is lashing out at everyone and anyone now. That's scum flail. I was making sure everyone understood how I was interpreting her current behavior.

[Desperado]

Oh....I didn't realize I posted that like 8 times. Sorry

Mastin can you fix that please?

<<< Technically, it was only four times. Butyeah, don't even have to ask. It's done. >>>

[Desperado]

Amethyst, can you quote what you're talking about re: KK and Ryu?

<<< Be more careful with your double-posts? All the same, deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

Yeah that is pretty weak, in Khan's mind all three of you are bluescum so it's not really an outrageous mistake. Certainly not a freudian slip.

[Desperado]

I didn't realize that we only had two blue mafia flips. Now it can be multiball, but is it possible it's just scum team vs. Sk vs. Town rather then S v S v T?

Could be. Doesn't appreciably change anything for me.

I like your question of Thad though. Especially after Thezmon's flip, I would expect a town vig (with a neighbor!) to have shot someone.

He even had a huge analysis post ready to go for his first post today.

It doesn't add up.

Unvote
Vote: ThAdmiral

[Desperado]

CTD, Nacho, Bulb: forget about Nero for right now and let's get this Thad wagon going so that the people voting Nacho have to get off him and choose between AK and Thad.

[Desperado]

Rena - 6 (Nero Cain, Cephrir, ffullisade, Seanald, Desperado, Bacde)

Amethyst Kitty - 7 (Kublai Khan, Slandaar, Desperado, Cephrir, ArcAngel9, Seanald, ffullisade)

Nachomamma8 - 4 (Nero Cain, Bacde, PeregrineV, ThAdmiral)

Nero Cain - 3 (Nachomamma8, Bulbazak, CTD)

These are the Rena, AK, and Nacho wagons at their respective apexes. Nero's wagon has only gotten as high as 3, so I'm not really sure what you meant by that, but anyway...

Seanald is the only one that really sticks out. He joins the Rena wagon with a naked vote (while supporting a cephrir wagon as well), and then votes AK with the bad policy lynch logic that basically no one liked.

Diving further into Seanald's ISO, the only time he mentions Ryu (while he was still alive) is to defend him here:

Redryu in junction with being passive to the bulb/hd-OM argument

not sure I understand this question, wasn't everyone being passive because their arguement was annoying as hell and everyone just told them to shut up? or has this arguement been going on since pages 20-29 cuz I havn't read the 20's yet.

It's also interesting to note that, after Ryu and Syryana's flip, Seanald made it a big show of not being concerned with Ryu's killer (because it was turning into a speculative circle jerk) here:

Ok So there has been a lot of talk about Red Ryu and shit, and who his partner/partners is which I get, and the talk has mostly just been a bunch of bacde and bulba tripping over each other's penises as they run around a bush.

Before turning around in the same post and sheeping Syryana's reads (note how he forgets that Ryu was already dead, as well--he really wants you to know that he isn't concerned with Ryu's death) here:

so just based off of Syr's reads, Desp,Red, and AA9(based on his comment) are switched into the scum pile. and baby spice and bacde join the null to scum pile.
theres more to read based off of syrs reads switching but I honestly can't keep it all in my head.

Honestly Seanald's whole treatment of the N1 deaths is just terribly scummy. Relevant posts are #2894, 2896, and 2899.

---------

The only time he interacts with Mac (thezmon's slot) is here:

I want to hear from Nacho before I follow the tomatos, and damn your tomatoes look good man.

also, never seen you town post this hard mala, its like not even a question.

@Mac, I'd like to know what you think of this game so far, you've been skirting this shit too long, pipe up sonny.

Which reads like scum asking a teammate to stop lurking. Mac was eventually replaced by thezmon, and the only time seanald interacted with HIM is here:

In post 1674, Bacde wrote:I'm clawing for reasons to unvote you and vote for desperado you know

I'd so much prefer it for both of us to be town and I want to believe

but you aren't helping me here

you feel like scum to me love

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH.

WOAH.

What happened to you being super convinced that Nacho was scum? Like, seemingly 100% convinced? But at its height you decide you want to go another way?

He's getting a chubby for nacho is what is happening, ive been seeing it in his eyes, he keeps looking across the room staring at Nacho's ass.

Until he becomes the 2nd to last vote when thezmon was clearly dead and gone.

--------

In the other direction...

Mac never mentions seanald, although I thought this post was interesting:

VOTE: Red Ryu

directing night actions? really?

especially in conjunction with AK's multiple posts of basically the same sentiment without a vote attached. Really starting to believe in one scum team + SK.

Thezmon only mentions Seanald (Ryu was listed as town in the same post) here:

NULL:
[Seanald, Kublai Khan, Desperado, Syryana, Nachomomma8, Cephrir]

and in his final reads post in #3247, in which Seanald is also null.

And Ryu only interacts with Seanald briefly, in this series of posts:

Seanald for #1 vig pick.

I'll vig your prick, and im still catching up. I don't have alot of time due to work so im a little over half way through right now.

Someone ask me something to get my dick juices in the game.

Hi, you posted now.

What reads you have, even simple or leaning ones?

Any gut feels of reads or anything.

I feel an overwhelming compulsion to follow the flowchart.....

and I have a town read on crash Text Dummie for the way he explained and handled the massclaim thing in the beginning pages there.

Explain.

I had the opposite.

Seanald never explained, and Ryu never followed up on it. Blatantly manufactured interaction.

-----------

Seanald has interactions with both blue scum that implicate him as a teammate. He was the 2nd to last vote on thezmon (without interacting with the process of thez's lynch whatsoever), and spent an inordinate amount of time trying to "decipher" the Syryana kill while downplaying the interest in examining Ryu's interactions.

And I was particularly disappointed with his treatment of Rena today because he told me in the quicktopic that he was considering her as a blue scum partner, and that he would ISO her because it was mostly gut, without following through on that at all.

In conclusion:

Unvote
Vote: Seanald

[Desperado]

I don't know why you would be surprised that wagons aren't taking off when they're on players most of us consider town.

It was a general thought. The faster the wagon I have seen earlier in days are normally on town unless there's a huge town block (not seeing a town block this game)

In response to this, as long as you're willing to accept individual members of the block to suspect one another (and you should, because that's healthy), then bacde/nacho/fullisade/bulbazak/CTD/kublai khan/arcangel is a damn formidable town block. I personally have no problem with any of them right now.

[Desperado]

Mollie what do you think of my Seanald case?

[Desperado]

Everyone I listed in that town block is town for me + Rena if her claim bears out

AK, Thad, Seanald, cephrir, peregrine are scum reads

Hd and slandaar lean town, penguin leans scum, and I'm still working Nero out. Just finished a game with town Nero that was going concurrently so I will probably lean on that.

[Desperado]

And if the blue team is 5/6 with an SK?

And I'm but at all convinced at Rena/penguin over Seanald fur last blue anyway. Link me to those cases

[Desperado]

Everyone I listed in that town block is town for me + Rena if her claim bears out

AK, Thad, Seanald, cephrir, peregrine are scum reads

Hd and slandaar lean town, penguin leans scum, and I'm still working Nero out. Just finished a game with town Nero that was going concurrently so I will probably lean on that.

See, I like the seanald vote.

Vote: Seanald

However, you think your own neighbor is scum, and both me and ThAd are also scum?

And thoguhts about CTD, neighbor to Slandaar?

I don't really care about the neighborhoods. For all I know you and Thad are scum together and are just claiming that you're a neighborhood.

Being in a neighborhood, as far as I know, is not alignment indicative whatsoever, so yes, I think my neighbor and both of you are scum at the moment.

And CTD is firmly in the town block.

[Desperado]

I actually like Desperado's case. It seemed to come out of nowhere, though. Might I ask what prompted it?

AK mentioned something (might have gotten lost) about how the composition of today's major wagons (Rena, Thad, Nero, themselves) was troubling for them, so I compared all four wagons at their peak and Seanald showed up (late) on both Rena and AK, for extremely weak (or nonexistent) reasons, as I said.

Given my townread on him before I felt like I should ISO him for possible connections, hence the case.

[Desperado]

That's L-2

<<< And that's a double-post I had to delete. >>>

[Desperado]

Unvote: Seanald

I'm also trying to figure out what it means that Seanald got to L-2 without any of ffullisade, CTD, bacde, Nacho, or Khan joining the wagon.

[Desperado]

Those are my five strongest townreads and none of them contributed to Seanald's wagon. It's making me paranoid.

[Desperado]

bacde, I asked you a while ago to show me you had support for a nacho lynch. I'm pretty sure you don't.

So can you join us here on day three? You seem to be stuck on day one.

[Desperado]

It's not that they didn't join the wagon. It's that the wagon got to 8 without 5 of my townreads.

Like I said I'm still trying to figure out what that means, if anything.

The other problem is there was basically no opposition. The case is good, but if I'm wrong about seanald then we get nothing from the lynch.

[Desperado]

What would we learn from a seanald town flip if no one opposes his lynch?

[Desperado]

My point is that wagon analysis would be unreliable if no one disagreed with the lynch.

[Desperado]

Nero, how is Thad obviously lying about being a neighbor and a vig?

Khan I take it you agree with my reservations re: the seanald wagon?

PEdit: You're not "allowed" to move your vote? Seriously?

After how how hard you were propping up the legitimacy of your hydra dissonance?

[Desperado]

Kk:

I been told that if I move the vote its going right back on you. I'd vote Seanald, but I'm not allowed, but good job on trying to twist a conversation to your benefit.

Yet other people are saying so and so are scum, but you're not saying jack shit to them for not voting.

Hey Bulb,

this is what a real deflection looks like.

[Desperado]

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

[Desperado]

Yes really.

If you were paying attention you would know that this scenario has already played out twice already, and this is the worst offense of the three.

You don't even have any examples to give, you just said "why me and some other people that I can't be bothered even name?"

[Desperado]

My neighborly status and my role are not related, no.

[Desperado]

It says what now?

[Desperado]

Khan I take it you agree with my reservations re: the seanald wagon?

Wasn't this a wagon you started and presented a case for?

Yes. Did you miss my other posts about it or what?

[Desperado]

Unvote: Seanald

I'm also trying to figure out what it means that Seanald got to L-2 without any of ffullisade, CTD, bacde, Nacho, or Khan joining the wagon.

Those are my five strongest townreads and none of them contributed to Seanald's wagon. It's making me paranoid.

It's not that they didn't join the wagon. It's that the wagon got to 8 without 5 of my townreads.

Like I said I'm still trying to figure out what that means, if anything.

The other problem is there was basically no opposition. The case is good, but if I'm wrong about seanald then we get nothing from the lynch.

<<< Double-post deleted. >>>

[Desperado]

Sorry for the double post.

I'm really not seeing how you missed those posts, which leads me to wonder why you asked me that question when my thought process on the matter was quite clear.

[Desperado]

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

AK is not dying today.. Seanald is today's lynch!!!
Stop pushing counter wagons!!!!!!!!

Seanald is only today's lynch because I told you it was, so I think I'll push whatever wagon I want

What I don't understand is why we aren't looking for scum in these three claimed neighborhoods.

We have:

Seanald / Despo

CTD / Slandaar

Pv / ThAd

I don't think Mastin would have three town neighborhoods and I doubt scum would claim if they were neighbors together.

There's something wrong with this picture.

This was already discussed as well. Are you sure you're reading the thread?

My point is Nacho that I can sometimes pull information from town AND scum lynches. In fact I know I can because I have done it multiple times when I was a vig and was accurate.
So I'm different when people say we can't pull information from possible town flips because it's wrong - people are able to pull information from them, but they need to know how it's done correctly.

I never said you can't get information from town flips. I said

Seanald's town flip

would not give us any information because is not being championed by anyone right now. No one has disagreed with a Seanald lynch.

I've asked you before so I'll ask again: what will a Seanald town flip tell us?

@Despo:

I was eating lunch when I posted earlier and kept wanting to throw my phone across the wall because it kept sticking and I couldn't type anything right. I think my replacement screen is fucked up right now.

ok

What is this in reference to?

I don't think Mastin would have three town neighborhoods and I doubt scum would claim if they were neighbors together.

There's something wrong with this picture.

Setup spec, generally useless. Why not wait until we have more information to sort out the neighborhoods? Why is it crucial we focus on them now?

We have one neighbor (ThAd) who has a x-Shot vig and wants to shoot another neighbor (CTD). (ThAd) is not listening to what the town wants and rather put things in his own hands.

We have currently one neighbor close to L-3 (now I believe) (Seanald) and his own neighbor (Despo) who is 'testing' wagons and now trying to bring light back to our wagon.

CTD's neighbor (Slandaar) is doing flips and jumps.

ThAd's neighbor (PV) is actually being helpful right now. So I don't have anything to say regarding him.

Not only is this 100% IIoA but you don't even answer Nacho's question. Why do we need to focus on the neighborhoods now?

And why did you put quotes around "testing?"

We have one neighbor (ThAd) who has a x-Shot vig and wants to shoot another neighbor (CTD). (ThAd) is not listening to what the town wants and rather put things in his own hands.

We have currently one neighbor close to L-3 (now I believe) (Seanald) and his own neighbor (Despo) who is 'testing' wagons and now trying to bring light back to our wagon.

CTD's neighbor (Slandaar) is doing flips and jumps.

ThAd's neighbor (PV) is actually being helpful right now. So I don't have anything to say regarding him.

This doesn't mean we should focus on the neighbor group.

Yeah we should because there's something odd regarding it. I doubt that every group present right here is town/town.

CTD already had suspicions on Slandaar, but hasn't given any new information regarding that.

Despo is acting all weird again and for a few minutes there I was warming up to him being town now he put himself back into a null pile.

"There's something odd" are you serious?

And whatever am I going to do now that I've worked my way back into your vague "there's something weird about Desperado" read?

Nacho's Nero case is awesome. Nice catch on the D1 multiball comment in particular. Sheep him.

Yeah 'cause those 2 extra lynches via kill sure wouldn't help town at all. Its not the first time I've been willing to leash a scum (sk?) killing power. Thad is obviously lying/trolling about being a neighbor AND a vig. That last line is fucking horrible.

a) Kills carried out by scum are not extra lynches.
b) You haven't done fuck all to "leash" ThAd until after I called you out.

Yeah it is really good.

Unvote
Vote: Nero Cain

[Desperado]

ffullisade and nacho:

Can I get your opinions on the seanald case?

[Desperado]

Nope not really readin the thread. I stopped caring a while ago. Mara cares though.

Can you pinpoint where you stopped caring?

[Desperado]

Because I'm betting it's around the time Ryu showed up dead and thez got speedlynched

[Desperado]

@despo

fery head here.

The case looks good on the face of it.

I have a feeling that Seanald could wind up mislynched a lot.

I'd want to do a lot more research before considering a vote. I thought I might have to make that research a priority earlier this week. I will get to it.

Thanks I'll do the same.

[Desperado]

Why would you stop caring because one player "got all paranoid"?

[Desperado]

OK

This is a big game though. If your #1 townread did something that gave you pause, why did you chose to stop caring rather than just moving on to your #2 town read?

[Desperado]

Arc is a higher town read even though she's "doing nothing but lurk her ass off?"

You didn't seem too interested in bouncing ideas off her when she was here right before voting you. And certainly not afterwards.

Or earlier today when she posted twice before 4pm, and you decided to...speculate about whether there is scum in the neighborhoods and then IIoA all over the place. That seemed a lot more like you "bouncing ideas" (and I use that term as loosely as possible) to the town as a whole.

[Desperado]

Who am I talking to right now?

[Desperado]

You sure? Mala's the one who fake-quit, I thought.

That's what I thought. Why did you just lie about being at work?

Vote: Amethyst Kitty

AK is not dying today.. Seanald is today's lynch!!!
Stop pushing counter wagons!!!!!!!!

What I don't understand is why we aren't looking for scum in these three claimed neighborhoods.

We have:

Seanald / Despo

CTD / Slandaar

Pv / ThAd

I don't think Mastin would have three town neighborhoods and I doubt scum would claim if they were neighbors together.

There's something wrong with this picture.

____

My point is Nacho that I can sometimes pull information from town AND scum lynches. In fact I know I can because I have done it multiple times when I was a vig and was accurate.
So I'm different when people say we can't pull information from possible town flips because it's wrong - people are able to pull information from them, but they need to know how it's done correctly.

____

@Despo:

I was eating lunch when I posted earlier and kept wanting to throw my phone across the wall because it kept sticking and I couldn't type anything right. I think my replacement screen is fucked up right now.

____

@Mollie:

2566.

Arc, Nero has a leaning scum read on you. Why?

Nero is obessed with me. He reads me scum in every game i play with him despite how I ended flipping town and he was wrong.
I keeping telling him time and again that I am town again in this game and he don't believe me. the thing is that i had tried to convince him before but it didn't work. So, I let him read me as scum becuz i am not sure about him either.

And right now there are better options like Seanald, Despo.... should be dying!!!

I don't think Mastin would have three town neighborhoods and I doubt scum would claim if they were neighbors together.

There's something wrong with this picture.

Setup spec, generally useless. Why not wait until we have more information to sort out the neighborhoods? Why is it crucial we focus on them now?

We have one neighbor (ThAd) who has a x-Shot vig and wants to shoot another neighbor (CTD). (ThAd) is not listening to what the town wants and rather put things in his own hands.

We have currently one neighbor close to L-3 (now I believe) (Seanald) and his own neighbor (Despo) who is 'testing' wagons and now trying to bring light back to our wagon.

CTD's neighbor (Slandaar) is doing flips and jumps.

ThAd's neighbor (PV) is actually being helpful right now. So I don't have anything to say regarding him.

We have one neighbor (ThAd) who has a x-Shot vig and wants to shoot another neighbor (CTD). (ThAd) is not listening to what the town wants and rather put things in his own hands.

We have currently one neighbor close to L-3 (now I believe) (Seanald) and his own neighbor (Despo) who is 'testing' wagons and now trying to bring light back to our wagon.

CTD's neighbor (Slandaar) is doing flips and jumps.

ThAd's neighbor (PV) is actually being helpful right now. So I don't have anything to say regarding him.

This doesn't mean we should focus on the neighbor group.

Yeah we should because there's something odd regarding it. I doubt that every group present right here is town/town.

CTD already had suspicions on Slandaar, but hasn't given any new information regarding that.

Despo is acting all weird again and for a few minutes there I was warming up to him being town now he put himself back into a null pile.

I'm waiting for Mara to flesh out the Nero town read.

When she does this then Ill comment on your thoughts.

And is 4188 you realizing that you lied and trying to preempt it?

[Desperado]

So back to the original point about you having an opportunity to engage Arc (why'd you ignore my question about how she's a higher townread?) and choosing to give us a bunch of IIoA that had already been covered instead, then?

[Desperado]

I don't want information on why you didn't quit. I don't care.

You're the one who brought it up just now as an explanation for why you were calling for an examination on the possibility of scum being in the neighborhoods (a topic covered like 1000 posts before you almost replaced out, btw), remember?

[Desperado]

Since when is 3-5 on a 10 person wagon "the middle?"

[Desperado]

And that is like, the newbiest reaction.

I expected something ...better than insulting the town and saying that the middle of your wagon has scum on it.

[Desperado]

He didn't say you did. He asked you a question.

[Desperado]

No you aren't suspicious of Nacho anymore?

[Desperado]

Looks to me like caught scum who doesn't know what to say