Micro 186: Vengeball (Game is over)

[Rift Adrift]

hi guys

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Yeah, some mod clarification would be good.

btw

Links to our main profiles

fferyllt - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20541

Syryana - http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=20972

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Dead
Cherry Dog - Misspelt Mod - Died due to being spelled wrongly.

LOL at this.

Anyway, given mp5's newbie I suggest a utility lynch b/c I can't read him.

VOTE: mp5

I skimmed a recent completed newbie game of MP5's. He doesn't look all that inscrutable.

Actually, I was thinking it would actually help town ...

Because the game is nightless, every kill is town controlled. If we happen to lynch a townie, then we should at least cast preferences as to who they should venge kill. Of course, they can always ignore it, but it does give us another measure of voting and influencing control of a kill which can be analysed later as well ...

5/2/2 normally would be horribly scum-sided, but this mechanic lets us fight back imo.

^^ Most towny post of the game so far.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

That isn't the most towny post, that is just setup speculation in which it's just poor, we don't need setup spec right now cause it's pointless at this point.

Not setup spec. We know the setup. It's the start of a strategy discussion. Town succeeding in this setup is going to require good strategy, I think.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

It will absolutely require scumhunting and townhunting.

Lynched townies can treat this as essentially a second opportunity for bandwagon analysis by demanding votes on who they should shoot, whether they take the consensus on board or go with their own reads.

[Rift Adrift]

Actually, I was thinking it would actually help town ...

Because the game is nightless, every kill is town controlled. If we happen to lynch a townie, then we should at least cast preferences as to who they should venge kill. Of course, they can always ignore it, but it does give us another measure of voting and influencing control of a kill which can be analysed later as well ...

5/2/2 normally would be horribly scum-sided, but this mechanic lets us fight back imo.

^^ Most towny post of the game so far.

- f

Disagree. Having to vengekill is pretty much our failure to correctly lynch despite supposedly 50% odds (no one is gonna vote for themselves, so a townie correctly lynching is 50%).

And venge is always (scum = town - 1) so it's somewhat a mitigating factor.

I won't bother commenting on the venge-shot directing as my personal beliefs might not apply to all.

Perfect town wins are awesome when they happen. I don't count on them.

But, I see your point. I still think the post totally comes from a town mindset.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Hydra synch up probably won't happen until sometime tomorrow. Syr is traveing today/tonight.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Synch achieved.

I don't like the Katsuki wagon. Syr is so-so about it.

Scummy: We agree that Jake, Seanald and Wisdom look scummy. Of the three, Wisdom looks the worst.

Syr agrees with me that MP5 is looking pretty towny.

So, Wisdom: The two things that stood out about him the most is the "oh right" reaction when Jake quoted Katsuki's post about updating role pms, as though that post was a huge ah ha. Then he pressured JKMatthews to vote someone who said they'd shoot one of his scumreads.

VOTE: Wisdom

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Also, JKMatthews looks town for his response to Wisdom.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

Three pretty strong town reads.

- f

[Rift Adrift]

If Katsuki flips town and I die as well look for scum in {Jake, Siveure, Seanald} Maybe Rift Adrift

Noted. This list makes me doubt a little that you are scum. But...2 scum teams.

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Jake if you are town, you are going to have to find a way to convince me of that.

And barring that, you need to do everything you can to prevent me from firing a shot.

Actually if you're scum you have the same problem and the same solutions.

[Rift Adrift]

Never lynch MP5, JKMatthews.

Nearly that sure about JasonWazza

And there's one more townie we need to find.

[Rift Adrift]

Jake if you are town, you are going to have to find a way to convince me of that.

And barring that, you need to do everything you can to prevent me from firing a shot.

Actually if you're scum you have the same problem and the same solutions.

I don't have to convince you of shit. how about you convince me you are town.

I'm obv town, it's not my fault dude had to flip out to my reaction test.

It's pretty much your fault that 2 townies are dead due to your dumb reaction test, yes. Now tell me how that was town-motivated.

[Rift Adrift]

I can tell you right now ffly (part of the drift hydra) isn't playing like the ffly I just played with her. She was much more vocal in that game, this game not so much, hence why I had a scum read on her day 1

idk who the other head is, maybe it's syrana? fuck I can't keep track of all her hydras, but if it's syrana, I don't see he/she playing like they did in that game either.

p.edit - I have seen town fall for that emo bullshit before, i'm not falling for it Siv. luckily you have other players you can try it on.

Syryana has not posted in this thread yet. We'll get another chance to synch up later tonight or tomorrow. Hopefully a longer chance. Because this game was his idea. I hate nightless games and would not be playing this one on my own.

Except I am playing it on my own for the most part.

After the absurd amount of bickerish posting in the Buzzword Bingo game, I'm striving for less is more in my own posting. It probably won't last. It's not the first time I've resolved to post less.

Anyway, I am serious about needing to figure you out. Your posting in this game is different too. I don't particularly want to get into shouting matches or endless no u's. I just want to know if you are town. If you are, then you know I won't go after you and in fact will argue against it with people who do.

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I've meta'd you before, and recently. Meta's not what I'm missing atm.

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I can see why scum wouldn't want the lynch-pool to shrink much.

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If Katsuki flips town and I die as well look for scum in {Jake, Siveure, Seanald} Maybe Rift Adrift

Noted. This list makes me doubt a little that you are scum. But...2 scum teams.

Jake, this was my reaction. Wisdom's reads, and the fact that he posted them at all had me doubting he would flip scum. It was already in stone at that point.

[Rift Adrift]

As to my reads, I've been transparent about the reasoning in this thread. You should have no trouble finding them.

[Rift Adrift]

to clarify, you said JK was town because of his response to wisdom, that response being faked is what I am referring to in 221

I don't think the JK response to wisdom was faked. I read your argument. I don't buy it right now.

Will answer the Jason question in a separate post.

[Rift Adrift]

Three pretty strong town reads.

- f

This post was prompted by jason's post 153. The reasoning in 153 looks town to me. Jason's the weakest of the three reads, though.

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All reads are subject to change, but you have to start somewhere.

Day 1 or w/e moved way too fast for my taste. Hopefully this lynch discussion will be more deliberative.

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There are 3 town left. I'm not willing to lynch among the town/maybe town today. I feel pretty good about lynching outside those groups.

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This reads as fake, how can you get "Godfather vibes" when really, Godfathers will act a lot similar to just Mafia Goons, with a partner they can willingly lynch, goons are the ones that would seem scummy for defending.

Godfather numero uno

^ only reasons we need. Call me a sheeper I dont care, I'm in complete agreement with jake.

Godfather numero dos

W/E it seems everyone wants to lynch katsuki and I don't really know what to say so BLATANT QUICKHAMMER FTW.

VOTE: katsuki

Goon numero uno

doubt a little...

p.edit - ok I get the Mp5 town read as I read him as town also, but you give absolutely no reason why jason is a town read and I don't fully buy your town read on JK cause that could easily be faked since we have 2 scum reads.

but fair enough, explain your town read on jason - I have him as null and as far as i can tell you are the only one town reading him.

Goon numero dos.

Game solved.
VOTE: JasonWazza

[Rift Adrift]

Ok Siv, who's scum?

And lets suppose you're right and you are town and you get mislynched, don't you think its important to make sure you venge scum and avoid town? Here, they're the same thing.

We need to get one of the godfathers today. Syr, my hydra partner thinks he has it figured out, and I've looked things over and agree with him.

The three town players also have to stick together. Someone from the opposite scum team

will

vote with us in time, hoping to garner some town cred and make the next lynch a mislynch.

It doesn't have to be Jason first. But it does need to be one of the quiet scum.

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Yep. I was confused until MP5 set me straight on the number. We're lynching a godfather today. That means you or Seanald. Syr and I don't care which.

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Nah. I routinely miscalculate numbers in mafia because I don't count myself.

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Jason, try again please, I'm not in to lynch rift, and I don't agree with your reasoning as to why he's scum about as much as I disagree with the "if you were town, you'd realise the danger" reasoning you had on wisdom back in 153.

Rift, of those two I'm more down with seanald than Jason right now. I'm still undecided as to who is scummier out of Jason and Jake, and that's a bridge I'd like to save crossing until I need to. I'm hoping we'll hit a gf and their goon will die too, if that decision isn't made for us I'll reconsider after I've seen some flips.

We do need a consensus of at least the three town and one opposing Mafia, or failing that two and two (with either both opposing Mafia on board, or a bus from the gf)

I'm happy for this then:

VOTE: seanald

Siv, is seanald a lynch you can support?
Jake, Jason, jk, same question.

Lets talk it out before a hasn't though

Syry and I were discussing whether to switch to seanald earlier, so I will go ahead and

UNVOTE: jasonwazza

VOTE: seanald

[Rift Adrift]

I feel like rift detects a little blood in the water and thinks she can pluck off town. It makes no sense that her "weak" town read all of a sudden is the GF and the only thing she can come up with is 1 post & his inactivity?

siv/rift both need pressure. both are guilty of something that makes no sense from a town perspective.


p.edit - I could see myself joining a seanald lynch at some point but prefer siv or rift first

My game changes a little as a hydra, and how it changes depends on who I am partnering with.

The first lynch was a fucking disaster for town and it happened so quickly and with no discussion at all about who to shoot.

I can't necessarily prevent another crap lynch, but I am sure as hell going to try to get a better one this time. And I'm in agreement with Syry about the likely mafia teams.

You haven't convinced me you are town. It's going to take more than calling yourself obvtown.

[Rift Adrift]

Reads to me more like the two heads of the hydra had a disagreement, f was seeing things one way and s comes in and changes that read.

Jake, does that mean you think Jason is town?

Not really a disagreement. Syry had his first real opportunity to catch up with the game thread since before Katsuki's lynch. I've not tried to figure out the mafia teams on my own. I was focused more on figuring out who I don't want lynched or shot.

[Rift Adrift]

having been in a hydra (still being in one) I fucking talk to my partner IN THE QT and we come to an agreement together before shitting up the thread. I had issues with you in the last game and now I am seeing the same issues here.

please you are 1 slot with 2 players, you still have to act like 1 slot. get on the same page before you post please.

No. Absolutely not. We're not shitting up the thread so fuck off with that crap.

We're discussing the game outside this thread when Syr is available, and I'm playing on my own when he isn't. Hopefully we will be able to play more seamlessly after this weekend.

slipt

[Rift Adrift]

That's some really interesting flail on Jake's part, though. Attacking stuff that has nothing to do with scumhunting.

I think we've got his gf in our sights.

[Rift Adrift]

Jake do you think Siv is a godfather?

[Rift Adrift]

I still think you are scum, Siv, but I will spell this out anyway.

You've just articulated why it matters, IMO. Right now, town is oiutnumbered 3-4 and doesn't have full control of the vote - at least one scum has to be on the bandwagon for it to go through.

If we lynch a godfather, then after that we'll be at 3-2 and will have control of the next lynch vote. If we lynch a goon, then we are at 3-3 and once again need a mafia vote for a bandwagon to go through.

Hopefully this time my numbers are right. :/

[Rift Adrift]

^^ this is why scum on team x will want to vote a goon on team y if a town lynch can't be had, btw. And that's what I am seeing in the current vote spread.

[Rift Adrift]

Jake do you think Siv is a godfather?

It's possible. It's naive to think a GF is only going to try and play 1 way.

It's possible, but is it likely that a GF's play would be this scummy if he could do otherwise? And there is another GF out there. If you are town, then you should be trying to find one of them, not bitching about my non-existant thread-shitting-up.

[Rift Adrift]

WIFOM city you've got going there.

Happy Father's Day.

[Rift Adrift]

NOPE. I'm still town.

Also I kinda agree with jason's point in 153.

xD.

Are you linking those in teams or no?

Seanald's goon confirmed

You wouldn't ask that question if you were town.

And you wouldn't make statements like this if you weren't scum
Also Jason's goon confirmed

Wait a second, why did you have 3 town reads when there are only 3 town left Rift?

and you flip it now when it's useful.

VOTE: Rift Adrift

Jason's gf status confirmed, welcome back to Micro 157 laddie

Why would a townie not know how many town there are left?

Answer he wouldn't

Why would a scum not know how many town there a left?

Answer, he doesn't need to know, he just needs to lynch everyone else.

Attack us with everything you can find
You're still getting lynched

jason is null, lack of posts makes him hard to read.

More confirmation of JasonGF

That's some really interesting flail on Jake's part, though. Attacking stuff that has nothing to do with scumhunting.

I think we've got his gf in our sights.

I'm not flailing lol @ u

Yeah ya are. You're flailing to distract us from your lord and master JasonWazza.

But what better way to play GF? Act "too scummy" to be the GF and get ignored.

Just cause my vote is on him now doesn't mean it won't change. You of all people should realize that...

I spy
with my little red eye
a heaping helping
of WIFOM pie

And speaking of realizations

I'm a miller.

Vote Seanald now?

[Rift Adrift]

uh jake... p sure that was a reference to the bingo game. a joke?

phoneposting. hope this isn't mangled

[Rift Adrift]

right it wasn't an obvious reference from the miller you talked about lynching off and on for 50 plus pages. that is both weak and grudge based. the irony is sweet.

[Rift Adrift]

If rift is town i will be extremely surprised, seriously.

I could see Seanald

Maybe

being scum, but i somehow doubt it, seanald is being seanald.

We shouldn't be looking to lynch "godfather's" and i use the term loosely, we should be looking for Mafia.

If they happen to be the godfather then good, if not it's no loss.

The bolded is not a town thought process. Lynching a goon would make it 3-3.

[Rift Adrift]

I

have not lied. Your complaint is with Syr. His fakequote was a a joke. Not one I would have made because 1) mafia is srs bznz and 2) you are severely lacking in a sense of humor.

I wish I could believe this is town-Jake outrage. I don't.

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Nope. Town-you has always attacked me via my partners, not directly. You are different this game. You're scum and you're not even trying to show me otherwise because you need another mislynch.

If you succeed, we are going to do some damage to scum on our way out.

[Rift Adrift]

You're a goon. You won't provoke either of us into voting you. Feel free to waste all the time you like in the attempt.

[Rift Adrift]

Hi klick, fferyllt here along with Syryana. Long time no play.

[Rift Adrift]

syr-rift poked Jake about his miller stance in the buzzword bingo micro game that just finished. Syr was one of the millers in question. Jake is pushing that as a serious, malicious misquote for all he's worth.

[Rift Adrift]

Syr is a he.

[Rift Adrift]

Are you talking to me? We are on Seanald.

I won't change our vote without discussion with Syr, which probably won't happen until sometime tomorrow.

[Rift Adrift]

No update. Syr has not been online. I have not said you are a goon, and I still think you are a GF. I self-ISOed to see if I could find a post that could be interpreted as me or Syr thinking you are a goon, and didn't find one.

[Rift Adrift]

So I guess I'm the deciding vote?

Jake, point me to the posts and stuff that show why Rift is a Godfather. Rift, do the same for Seanald.

Syr did the analysis and it had to do with the lack of townish content in seanald's early posts and the extremely low quantity. jasonwazza's content was slightly better but very bad compared to MP5 and the content of your predecessor's post. Quantity-wise, jkmatthews was really low, though.

[Rift Adrift]

@rift - do you use a hydra to talk to your other head?

If yes, did syrana not communicate his thoughts?

Other games your hydras work closely and know what the other is thinking. This one feels like Dr. Jeckle & Mr. Hyde. You call Jk town, syrana calls him scum shortly after.

It's not like what I know

Syr's been out of pocket and traveling except for a couple of very short periods of time since this game started. We talked for a short time on Saturday. He expected to be back online today, but mentioned he was getting sick just before we signed off.

If you guys do hammer, then settle down for a wait. I won't choose a target without talking it over with him. And I'll be demanding input from every player about who you think we should shoot. We will damn sure make our shot count both for more "bandwagon analysis" and for taking out scum.

[Rift Adrift]

Oh yeah Siv unvoted.

Rift - in a team of Jake/Jason, who would be the Godfather?

Leaning Jason. I think Jake is trying to to piss us off and draw an emotion-based vote now/shot later in the event we decide to go for that scum team. He's been poking at me, not assessing my alignment.

[Rift Adrift]

I've assessed your alignment. That's yet another lie

Not from where I'm sitting.

If you were town I am pretty sure you'd be able to tell that I am too, whether you would admit it or not. And you have always done the right thing when push came to shove when we've played in other games.

In the past you've voted me out of petulance regarding my partners, not out of tactics, which told us all we needed to know about your alignment.

This vote reeks of tactics.

[Rift Adrift]

You were slight town til your partner lied. Since there's no town motivation to lie like that, it makes you the obvious GF. GF has to appear town. Your contrabutions haven't been like they have in other games also. Basically YOUR play, is different.

MP5 had no trouble figuring out the basis for that deliberate misquote. Syr was poking fun at you. Anyone who looks at the buzzword bingo game will see the same thing - your policy re millers, your pages of crap about Syr' miller claim. The dumb fight between you and b. And the eventual outcome.

It's absolutely within your town meta to put down a petulant vote over being poked fun at. What is not within your town meta is to use it as a smokescreen for not seriously scumhunting.

[Rift Adrift]

Rift, I think it's a good idea to lynch Jake now. He'll be hard to lynch later if he makes it to LyLo, and right now he has a really high chance of being scum.

I don't think he will be hard to lynch at all. He's already started one bandwagon that resulted in a town death. Two town deaths considering that katsuki shot from the hip instead of taking some time and trying to make sure the shot was well aimed.

If Syr disagrees and thinks Jake is the best lynch I will go along with that.

[Rift Adrift]

You were slight town til your partner lied. Since there's no town motivation to lie like that, it makes you the obvious GF. GF has to appear town. Your contrabutions haven't been like they have in other games also. Basically YOUR play, is different.

MP5 had no trouble figuring out the basis for that deliberate misquote. Syr was poking fun at you. Anyone who looks at the buzzword bingo game will see the same thing - your policy re millers, your pages of crap about Syr' miller claim. The dumb fight between you and b. And the eventual outcome.

It's absolutely within your town meta to put down a petulant vote over being poked fun at. What is not within your town meta is to use it as a smokescreen for not seriously scumhunting.

But you didn't direct that directly to me. You were talking to others in that same post.

Suppose I hammered and he flipped town, what Next? Just like bulder's fake claim if doctor that lead to his lynch, you too have to pay the price. Lying or pretending to lie and claiming its a joke, idk what's the truth.

In context there's nothing to imply its a joke.

You are the player in this game who has no question whatsoever about the context that made it a joke at your expense. You are hoist by your own petard.

[Rift Adrift]

Rift, I think it's a good idea to lynch Jake now. He'll be hard to lynch later if he makes it to LyLo, and right now he has a really high chance of being scum.

I don't think he will be hard to lynch at all. He's already started one bandwagon that resulted in a town death. Two town deaths considering that katsuki shot from the hip instead of taking some time and trying to make sure the shot was well aimed.

If Syr disagrees and thinks Jake is the best lynch I will go along with that.

You still never explained how I'm the one to blame for that lynch or the venge kill.

I never called for the hammer. Wisdom/seabass did.

Blaming me for 2 deaths is complete horsecrap

I believe town-you would have known that was a crap lynch based on who jumped on it and how fast it was moving to hammer. The fact that you sat there and watched it speaks volumes.

[Rift Adrift]

Idk what that last post from rift means, it better not be an insult.

It's Shakespeare.

TVTropes explains the meaning and origins pretty well.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sOwnPetard

[Rift Adrift]

You obviously have no clue about me as a player like you claim if you honestly believe what you just typed.

P.edit - ill read that later

You are essentially saying I give you too much credit as a town player. I'll keep that in mind in the unlikely event you flip town this time.

[Rift Adrift]

It is amazing how scummy you are, Jake. If I thought you were a GF my vote would be on you and not budging.

[Rift Adrift]

lol shouties.

please do make sure to not sign up for the same games with me in the future. I will thank you for the kindness.

[Rift Adrift]

We've said pretty emphatically that Jason and Seanald are our picks for GFs.

[Rift Adrift]

klick, I had him as town at first.

For our thoughts on scum jason see posts 232, 294, 357

[Rift Adrift]

Um, some of the reasoning is good and fine and I agree with both of you on jason scum.

But part of it looks like "We MUST lynch the GFs first,

and anyone who disagrees with this is scum

."

Not necessarily scum, but at the very least not getting the realities of the situation.

After the first lynch/shoot we're at 3 town and 2 teams of 2 each scum.

If we lynch a godfather then it's 3 town and a team of (1 GF, 1G) because the other goon dies with the GF. If we lynch a goon then it's 3 town and (1 GF, 1G) and (1 GF). And it will be that much more difficult for town to control the next lynch because it's 3 votes out of 6 not 3 votes out of 5.

[Rift Adrift]

complete bullshit.

[Rift Adrift]

Jake why didn't

you

explain the numbers?

Answer:

because you don't want town to understand the situation.

[Rift Adrift]

actually it's not bullshit. It's very accurate.

you start the game kissing up to the players you think you can get on your side - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5022384

you again attack a weaker player that you know is probably town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5025055

not to mention

you say this game is going to take town hunting

, yet you don't really do any. Instead you ask me to convince you I am town. That doesn't sound like someone interested in town hunting.

you put the guy you were buddying on your do not lynch list as well as JK, yet you provide no real reason why jk is town other than 1 post is fairly weak (more buddying)

once you have buddied up enough and got these people to think you are town, you just use POE to decide on the remaining scum but your reasons (or syrana's reasons) don't really make much sense and to put the icing on the cake you LIE to push a lynch

all of this shows the manipulative behavior required of a GF. thus you are CONFIRMED GODFATHER

What you call buddying I call townhunting.

And your lie bullshit and your tactical meltdowns haven't convinced anyone who is town.

[Rift Adrift]

explain what numbers?

These numbers.

Um, some of the reasoning is good and fine and I agree with both of you on jason scum.

But part of it looks like "We MUST lynch the GFs first,

and anyone who disagrees with this is scum

."

Not necessarily scum, but at the very least not getting the realities of the situation.

After the first lynch/shoot we're at 3 town and 2 teams of 2 each scum.

If we lynch a godfather then it's 3 town and a team of (1 GF, 1G) because the other goon dies with the GF. If we lynch a goon then it's 3 town and (1 GF, 1G) and (1 GF). And it will be that much more difficult for town to control the next lynch because it's 3 votes out of 6 not 3 votes out of 5.

[Rift Adrift]

also please point out where the indication that this post was directed to me and only me AND where you imply this is a joke.

if you can't do it than you confirm what I have been saying the entire time. YOU FUCKING LIED

Hey
Hey Jake

I'm not entirely sure this has occurred to you yet but
this is an open setup
and you recently got done playing a game with us where you spent some 30-aught pages bleating about a miller policy lynch

Therefore it should be obvious
that nobody in the game would fakeclaim a role not in this setup
and since you're the only person here that was in buzzword with us
the mockery was directed at you

you start the game kissing up to the players you think you can get on your side - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p5022384

Finding other townies, what a scummy thing to do

you again attack a weaker player that you know is probably town - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5025055

Wisdom a weaker player, lol.

not to mention you say this game is going to take town hunting, yet you don't really do any. Instead you ask me to convince you I am town. That doesn't sound like someone interested in town hunting.

We're not interested in townhunting you, we know you're scum, we've explained this before

you put the guy you were buddying on your do not lynch list as well as JK, yet you provide no real reason why jk is town other than 1 post is fairly weak (more buddying)

Why would we not want to have townies on our no-lynch list?

once you have buddied up enough and got these people to think you are town, you just use POE to decide on the remaining scum but your reasons (or syrana's reasons) don't really make much sense and to put the icing on the cake you LIE to push a lynch

Considering the general reactions to my "game solved" post, it's pretty obvious I was right

[Rift Adrift]

Um, a situation of 3/2/1 is superior to a situation of 3/2/2, so work towards that.

For scum, is 3/2 better or worse than 3/2/1 as the 2? We both agree it's 3/2/1, so why would scum lynch the GF when they can get the opposing goon?

Also, this is a personal worry, but 3/2/1 and a town lynch can still be rather winnable for town.

Besides, i think your 2nd post of explanation on jason was the thingy or summat.

Right now, it's 3-2-2.

After the next lynch it can be

3-2 if we hit a godfather.
3-2-1 if we hit a goon.
2-2-2 if we hit town. And then the venge kill will make it either 2-2 (if the venge hits a gf), 2-2-1 (if the venge hits a goon) or 1-2-2 (if the venge hits another townie).

Make sense?

[Rift Adrift]

From the OP.

12. There is a mafia godfather on each team that if lynched, will take any living goons of that colour with them. (losing that scumteam the game)

[Rift Adrift]

If rift is town i will be extremely surprised, seriously.

I could see Seanald

Maybe

being scum, but i somehow doubt it, seanald is being seanald.

We shouldn't be looking to lynch "godfather's" and i use the term loosely, we should be looking for Mafia.

If they happen to be the godfather then good, if not it's no loss.

The bolded is not a town thought process. Lynching a goon would make it 3-3.

But this. This is what I didn't like.

If rift is town i will be extremely surprised, seriously.

I could see Seanald

Maybe

being scum, but i somehow doubt it, seanald is being seanald.

We shouldn't be looking to lynch "godfather's" and i use the term loosely, we should be looking for Mafia.

If they happen to be the godfather then good, if not it's no loss.

The bolded is not a town thought process. Lynching a goon would make it 3-3.

But this. This is what I didn't like.

Specifically what didn't you like?

[Rift Adrift]

whoa. doublequote.

[Rift Adrift]

What I don't like is that you're making it seem scummy to want to lynch scum first.

Trying to lynch people based off godfather tells is fine, it's your method of scumhunting. But you're throwing someone else's methods of scumhunting into a pool of scumminess waaay too easily.

OK. I do feel like if we lynch a goon next it becomes much more difficult for town to win this due to the numbers. Lynching a GF is best. Lynching a goon is 2nd best. Lynching town all but gives the game to one of the scum teams and the town player *has* to venge a goon, not a godfather, or it's insta-win for the other scum team.

This game set up requires mafia skills that are not my strengths. I'm good at reads, and don't usually spend a lot of effort on strategy.

[Rift Adrift]

As far a s "pool of scumminess" goes, if I thought Jason were town, I'd take a different approach. But, we don't think he's town, and didn't think so prior to his making that post.

[Rift Adrift]

Venging a GF just kills the GF, unless it's different from normal vengefuls.

But still,

Mod, can you confirm this?

Also jake, thank you for the compliment, but I'm not that good.

And rift, if we lynch a goon the game is still really difficult, but it's not as difficult as it is now, b/c atm it's REALLY badly against us.

Explain to me how 3/2/1 is worse than 3/2/2?

Also,

Mod, in a 0/2/2 situation is it a tie between scumteams?

Also, I'm going to say if I'm the last townie I'm ruling against jake and then against rift and then against mp5 .

I am not comparing 3-2-2 to 3-2-1. 3-2-2 is where we are now.

After today's lynch it can be one of three things: 3-2-1, 3-2, or 2-2-2. Of those, 3-2 is the best for town, and it is what I'm aiming for. If we get near deadline without a 3-2 possibility, then Syr and I will have no choice but to settle for a try at 3-2-1 but I won't be happy about it.

[Rift Adrift]

Also, rift,what was the reasoning in 153 you liked initially, and why did you change your mind on that post?

I (fferyllt) liked the post, and Jason was the weakest of my town reads. Syr thought otherwise and convinced me though I still liked the post. So jason flipped from weakest town read to weakest scum read. Since then, he's slipped further, but tbh the way 3 players stopped contributing bothers me, even though I still have one of them as strong town. Actually 4, before klick replaced jkmatthews.

[Rift Adrift]

"If we go to 3/2/1 it becomes much more difficult."

It becomes much more difficult than 3-2.

Psychologically, I think it puts the lone GF in a position where eliminating the other scum team becomes paramount for that round, though.

[Rift Adrift]

Your recent posts are making me wonder about my unlynchable townbloc. If you aren't actively trying to figure this out, you're creating a extremely convincing facsimile thereof. I wouldn't vote you today because I don't think you are a GF.

You're giving me reason to rethink some things.

[Rift Adrift]

dude plz. I've been contemplating the possibility we're wrong about you for HOURS.

Don't ruin it. :/

[Rift Adrift]

You should reread that post.

[Rift Adrift]

^^ to Jake

[Rift Adrift]

Lolz.

Rift, up for a Jason lynch?

Kinda. IMO he's less scummy looking than Seanald, but more scummy looking than everyone else except Jake.

Will want Syr to weigh in before considering a vote change.

[Rift Adrift]

VOTE: JasonWazza

[Rift Adrift]

That's purdy.

[Rift Adrift]

Happy Scumday, Siv!

klick who do you think could be partners with Seanald? If he's goon, not GF that opens up some possibilities.

[Rift Adrift]

According to the little piece of cake in your miniprofile, yes.

[Rift Adrift]

In a game with 2 scum teams my wagon doesn't clear me. I think it makes a me/Seanald team where I would be GF pretty unlikely.

[Rift Adrift]

I guess it doesn't confirm him, and it does bring up a good question in my mind which would change some things.

Rift, how do you feel about Siv buddying you? because in my mind you two have kind of tied your selves together, which would make sense as a scum team cuz Siv just would not vote you if his life depended on it, which reaks of him being fearful of lynching his godfather.

His play could be designed to raise that as a possibility, I guess.

I think the buddying accusations could go both ways if the possibility of buddying is being raised at all. My read went from "scum" to "not sure" based on our interactions. Getting data that leads to read-softening and buddying have some similarities. It comes down to reverse engineering the motivations from in-thread behavior.

Knowing the Rift alignment, Siv not hammering us has a few interpretations. He could be scum and have worried that we'd aim for his team if he's scum. He could be town and genuinely thought it was a town wagon. He could be scum and have been hunting the other scum team's GF to eliminate the team completely.

I am going to go back and reread Siv's comments about Jake. He seemed in favor of 3-2-1 yesterday.

[Rift Adrift]

Rift, how likely do you think it is that MP5 is scum?

I had an early and strong town read on him, that was reinforced from reading his other game thread and reading the postgame comments he made in games he was following. Syr agreed. Disappearing and then showing back up to move his vote after the Seanald wagon started to fade (iirc you moved your vote first) does raise some concerns, though.

[Rift Adrift]

Nope I"m wrong, MP5 voted jason first. You went jake -> jason -> Seanald - > jason.

[Rift Adrift]

Because reading back, MP5's first three posts are what make me feel like he's town. I don't know if I can see him faking those.

PEdit: So we had our read for the same reasons, I guess?

Yeah, sounds like it. I did the meta dive because Siv said something about MP5 being impossible to read.

[Rift Adrift]

Because reading back, MP5's first three posts are what make me feel like he's town. I don't know if I can see him faking those.

PEdit: So we had our read for the same reasons, I guess?

Wait...no we don't have a read for the same reasons.

Here are his first 3 posts.

/confirm

Hello to a couple of familiar faces and a bunch of new ones.

Ok, setup spec from reading the rules:

" There is a mafia godfather on each team"

Ergo, there are two Mafia teams, and if you define one member as godfather it leaves one as goon, meaning a 5/2/2 setup?

@Jason wazza - yep, that's totally it. Couldn't be that I'm a townie in a setup I have no idea about at all or anything. Your deduction powers are impeccable.

(Don't worry, I'll catch up fast though.)

What is it about these posts that strike you as town-motivated?

[Rift Adrift]

Er, not the confirm post. Posts 4, 8, and 9. His confusion of the setup looks really legit. But I'm not certain.

So this one?

Having read the spoiler tags for the role pms, it makes more sense now.

[Rift Adrift]

I've had a vague paranoid feeling about mp5 the entire time, and just not done anything with it.

I played in a newbie game with him (1300, i think) and he was my one solid townread the whole time and he turned out to be scum, so yeah.

Jason/Jake were both on rift, and seanald was massively in the camp with jake.

I want to look at jake/seanald's interactions.

PEdit: How is that completely utterly town?

I did a quick and cursory review of his ISO in that game.

There is a bit of a parallel in the earliest posts, in terms of seeming clueless. In the Newbie 1300 it was about how bolding works or something. In this game it was knowable details of the open set up.

From there, though, his posts are pretty different here and there. Would be worth comparing his reads lists in the two games, I think.

Syr and I aren't entirely in agreement about where to go from here. There may be walls before we sort things out.

[Rift Adrift]

The thing is,

if you're town, and I'm town,

then MP5 can't be town. Unless you think a Rift/Seanald team is plausible? But at the same time, you've also done things that make me think you can't be scum. That's why I'm having such an issue with this.

Getting the bolded If's sorted is my priority.

We originally thought Seanald was GF. After the day 2 lynch results, it's all but impossible for him to be a GF.

[Rift Adrift]

I found some stuff in a forgotten browster tab. trying to copy it. Can't directly quote it because the thread pointers are all different now.

Exactly. There is NO way you are scum going with your buddy jake, and I doubt you as scum do that to someone not of your alignment.

Especially not as a GF.

Okaaaay. What I see is like seanald getting both of the scums' roles hilariously wrong and really not interacting with anyone else besides a bit with rift.

Jake didn't reply with town on seanald, so it's not buddying so I really do think seanald could be dumbtown.

I'm slightly worried that jk was goodscum and klick took over an easy slot.

Waitphew I didn't vote there yaaaay.

I felt like voting mp5, then changed my mind that should probably be rift getting voted b/c klick/mp5 not ditching the seanald wagon for rift is weird.

I'm probably in tunnelmode now anyway, so yeah I don't see the point in saving the vote longer.

VOTE: rift adrift

Why do you think you are in tunnel mode?

I've had nothing but stuff that doesn't lead to rift/mp5, in my last bunch of looks at the game so it's possible i've hit confbias and i really don't know what else to look at.

I've had nothing but stuff that doesn't lead to rift/mp5, in my last bunch of looks at the game so it's possible i've hit confbias and i really don't know what else to look at.

I am kinda waiting for Syr to be back online. I have a case for the identity of the other GF halfway fleshed out but need his thoughts and maybe a reality check.

Yesterday I was pretty concerned about being mislynched because even if we venged scum (and I was certain we would) town would still be in a pretty bad way at 2-2-1. Today, not so much. If we are lynched, I still think we'll hit scum and then day 4 should be 2-1 with a fairly obvious final scum.

^^ posted that bit as fferyllt and then quoted it as rift.

[Rift Adrift]

and have you talked with Syr yet to make your case?

We haven't talked in detail about this game yet, though he knows my questions. We should have a chance to work on it today now that there's a thread to iso again.

[Rift Adrift]

Hey Siv please unvote for a bit.

I just noticed that there are 4 columns in the vote table. With 5 players should it be 3? Or is there something unique to this game format re LYLO?

I don't think we're ready to have someone at L-1.

[Rift Adrift]

MP5, I am still waiting for some input from Syr on my case, but I'll give you the sparknotes. I think the scum team is klick/seanald. I think klick is the GF. If I were lynched today I would shoot among those two. Probably klick.

[Rift Adrift]

Would I really shoot klick? I dunno. I like a little shock and awe in mafia, but given that shooting doesn't remove the whole team, I might play it a little safer and go for seanald.

It would depend on if I thought the remaining town players would do the right thing the next day.

[Rift Adrift]

I'd like to hear how you came to that conclusion. I'm not in the best position to explain,

but I think in particular the start of Day Three makes that scumteam very unlikely

.

Could you post your case without Syr?

What do you mean by "the start of Day Three"?

[Rift Adrift]

I'd like to hear how you came to that conclusion. I'm not in the best position to explain, but I think in particular the start of Day Three makes that scumteam very unlikely.

Could you post your case without Syr?

Why is Klick scum? It's a combination of many things; POE, changing reads on Siv, interactions with Seanald, other question marks here or there. YesterDay, I believed the scumteam to be Seanald/Siv, but after seeing events unfold I no longer believe Siv is scum. Seeing his attempts to figure out the game, setup spec really changed my mind about him. He also passed what I refer to as the "fuzzybutternut test", which essentially says "if a person genuinely comes up with and pushes something so batshit insane that no normal human being would ever give credence to, then town." He passed that one before the tigers ate the thread, with his ridiculous "tying Jake to Seanald" idea. It was retarded, granted. But Siv genuinely

believed

it. That much was obvious.

Anyroad, Siv-town. That leaves MP5 and Klick (not counting Seanald, he's been and is a cheeky lil scumfuck). MP5, as fery has already explained, is our top townread. Klick is, therefore, scum by POE.

However, POE isn't the primary reason we're scumreading Klick, either. One of the primary problems I had that set off alarm bells with Klick was the interaction with Seanald, quotes as follows:

Seanald, care to explain where you've been and what you've been doing this game?

sure, been busy with work, and I've been fucking reads up this game that's what. I didn't think jason would flip GF, that was a little surprising I don't know why he thought it was a good idea to play the way he did as a GF, I bet Jake is mad at him lol.

considering that is 1 whole scum team gone now, it opens everyone up to suspicion I think, except Rift. That wagon I think clears you rift and I was probably being a bit OMGUSy with my vote on you.

MP5 could easily be another scum, he hasn't been around much at all and put him self in a nice spot.

How does the wagon clear Rift?

I'm trying to assemble my thoughts. If MP5 is scum, it makes things a lot simpler, but I really doubt he is.

The quote wall begins with Seanald's first post since the JasonWazza scumflip. In it he says quite a few alignment null things (e.g. been working, didn't expect JasonGF) and a few not-so-null things (bashing Jason's "bad GF play", appeases the hell out of the Rift slot by saying the wagon clears us and apologizing for his OMGUS'y vote on us). He then proceeds to accuse MP5 of being scum for lurking and "putting himself in a nice spot". Pot calling the kettle black on the first point and no clue what the second point means, but that's neither here nor there.

Klick's response to this rather shady post is most illuminating. Rather than calling Seanald out on the buddying or the arbitrary MP5 scumread, he concentrates on the inane detail of "why is Rift cleared?" Setting aside for the moment the debate on whether or not concentrating on whether someone is cleared or not is scummy, why does Klick, when questioning someone whom he had a scumread on almost since he replaced in, ignore the blatantly scummy things in Seanald's post? Let's set that aside for the moment as well, and analyze Seanald's response to why Rift is confirmed town.

I guess it doesn't confirm him, and it does bring up a good question in my mind which would change some things.

Rift, how do you feel about Siv buddying you? because in my mind you two have kind of tied your selves together, which would make sense as a scum team cuz Siv just would not vote you if his life depended on it, which reaks of him being fearful of lynching his godfather.

Interesting. Seanald, when confronted on his attempt to appease us (note that Klick doesn't realize it's appeasement, just that it's weird for us to be confirmed town), immediately backs off his statement, does a 180, and attacks Siv and us. So he dodges explaining anything w.r.t. Klick's question and deflects with an attack on Siv/Rift, calling Siv's treatment of us "buddying" and that Siv's refusal to vote us is indicative of "him being fearful of lynching his godfather". Ironic coming from Seanald, since he was

also

at L-1 yesterDay when Siv was refusing to hammer. It's a question dodge and a pretty transparent attempt to deflect suspicion onto Siv/us. What does Klick make of this?

Hmm.

UNVOTE:

Starting to consider the possibility that Seanald is town. The only partner I can see for him at this point is MP5.

Do

what

. Far from catching onto the blatant deflections/fallacies/scummy things Seanald has been saying, Klick

clears him as town

? What the absolute fuck is this? Klick voted Seanald on Day 2, sat his vote there all Day until the Jason-lightning-counterwagon showed up, then immediately parked his vote back on Seanald at the start of Day 3. This is what made me realize Klick is scum; because his scumread (and vote) on Seanald were entirely for show. Look at what Klick had to say about Seanald before this exchange:

Spoiler: Things Klick said about Seanald

Lets lynch Seanald after Jason, if we can.

In other news, We have two incredibly obvious scum in Jason and Seanald that I haven't heard any comments about. On the Jason thing, at least - there are at least votes on Seanald.

Didn't catch where you said Jason, but okay.

VOTE: Seanald

I'd much rather lynch the GF than a goon, but a goon is better than a townie.

what was the point of asking that?

You should vote Seanald. He's at least not town.

Except I (and I'm pretty sure others) think they're town, while no one thinks Seanald is town.

Honestly, I'm ready for this day to be over with. Jason, Seanald, or Jake - I'm pretty sure all three are scum.

Success.

VOTE: Seanald

Anyone really. I have no clue as to the GF, because you, MP5, and Siv have all been town reads at some point. I guess my best shot would be between you and Siv.

PEdit: Why doesn't Rift/Seanald make sense?

As you can see, of the 28 posts Klick made up to the point of the Seanald/Klick exchange, roughly a third of them express a very strong scumread in Seanald. It's pretty blatantly obvious why I believe that Klick's rapid 180 on Seanald is a load of garbage.

"But Syr", you ask, "Klick had his vote on Seanald all Day 2, do you really think they're scum together?" Yep. While Seanald was being a scummy little lurkfuck, Klick didn't have a problem bussing him for towncred. However, as soon as Seanald stops lurking and starts to provide content that Klick finds even marginally acceptable he drops the scumread and begins to work as a team with his partner again.

"Why do you think Klick is the GF?" VCA, primarily. I sincerely doubt scum-Klick (or scum-anybody for that matter) would leave his GF at L-1 for the better part of a Day at risk of losing the game.

VOTE: Klick

Pedit: That is the WIFOMiest WIFOM of all WIFOM. Thanks for confirming scum.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm on my phone, but in very short response to your case: Seanald's play

looks

scummy, and that's where your whole thing falls apart. In a similar way that you townread Siv, I have a "too scummy to be scum" read on Seanald.

Our leaning-town read on Siv has nothing at all with "too scummy to be scum".

[Rift Adrift]

^^ nothing at all

to do

with

[Rift Adrift]

We are not seeing town in Seanald's posts.

[Rift Adrift]

jesus christ.

[Rift Adrift]

I am so pissed.

The same timestamp on those posts looks fucking terrible.

[Rift Adrift]

But klick's vote seals it for me.

[Rift Adrift]

What's wrong with the hammer? There wasn't really any point in waiting.

I'm going to find it really funny when it's MP5-GF/Seanald-Goon.

No point you say, when Siv was apparently in the process of posting an unvote.

The timing is so fucking suspicious.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm holding back walls of ragepost.

Can't promise Syr will do the same.

[Rift Adrift]

So, you're suggesting I knew someone was about to unvote MP5?

Let's just say Siv's town read is riddled with holes. I have no idea if the scum teams have day communications. I wish I did.

[Rift Adrift]

Are you for fucking real?

[Rift Adrift]

What other kind of talk would they have?

That's a weird place to townslip so dammit.

Pre-day 1 communications only a la the polygamy set up would be the alternative to daytime QT access.

No communication at all would be horrible for the scum teams.

[Rift Adrift]

Trying to shoot klick would be like swinging and aiming for the fences - if it pays off, you've hit a home run; but if not, you're in trouble. He might be the gf, he's been bussing seanald hard though if your theory is right.

knocked it out of the park, MP5.

OK Siv, I'm through rageposting. I'm going to go back through klick's day 3 posts, to see if I conclude once again that Seanald is his goon.

[Rift Adrift]

Seriously? How many hours was it from the time Syr posted that wall and we voted klick?

How many hours was it from the time I asked you to unvote MP5 and you did it?

[Rift Adrift]

I'm tempted to just hammer, but when Syr and I talked right after the klick flip we agreed to wait for seanald and you both to post before deciding what to do.

We both think seanald is the goon.

[Rift Adrift]

I'm tempted to just hammer, but when Syr and I talked right after the klick flip we agreed to wait for seanald and you both to post before deciding what to do.

We both think seanald is the goon.

You think too much.
VOTE: Seanald

[Rift Adrift]

So yes I never gave either scum team communication, which I might change if I were to run this setup again, I guess when faced with 7 people you don't know the alignments of, not having private commuication with your partner will change things from just a 5p vengeful. Especially when both godfathers was flaking/unable to pay attention to the game.
(I never gave any when I ran 7p vengeful either).

The role pm errorabout me copying and not changing one minor thing probably did also effect how this game started, but I don't think that was a huge effect.

I'm also not sure if I should have kept the votes that happened during the crash in play, but I think the game was still likely to be heading to a town win - at that time it was just a matter of whether you figured Klick out or not.

Anyway I did make a Dead Thread (half way through day 2, but it did get made).

Any other queries about my modding here? Is a multiball vengeful game something I should run again?

It was a very intense game. I generally don't like nightless games, but the vengeful aspect made this one a lot more palatable. Even when I thought we would get lynched I knew we should be able to kill scum.

jkmatthews was our 2nd worst misread of the game. wisdom was the worst, but even if we had thought he was town, I don't think we could have saved him. That first lynch going through so quickly freaked me out, though.

Thanks for designing and running it. I enjoyed playing it a lot.