NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

mastin2 · Post Post #3250 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:58 am

Sixty-Second Votecount

:

(Tenth Votecount Day Two,

AKA, the "In death, a bird holds serenity" votecount.

)

thezmon221 is at L-1!

thezmon221 - 10 (Bacde, Desperado, Kublai Khan, Nero Cain, EddieFenix, ffullisade, Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie, Cephrir, ThAdmiral)

Cephrir - 3 (Amethyst Kitty, Slandaar, Seanald)

Haylen - 2 (Om the Destroyer, penguin_alien)
Amethyst Kitty - 1 (Thor665)
Desperado - 1 (ArcAngel9)
Bacde - 1 (Haylen)

Not Voting - 3 (thezmon221, PeregrineV, Bulbazak)

With

21

alive, it's

11

to lynch.

Day Two's deadline is Thursday, June 20th, @ 12:30 PM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-06-20 12:30:00).

If deadline hit now, thezmon221 would be lynched.

Bulbazak is V/LA over weekends indefinitely.
PeregrineV is V/LA until Friday, Jun 7th.

Spoiler: Changes from last votecount

Last votecount was page 130, post 3237.

Spoiler: Player Votecount History D2

Spoiler: Votecount History D2

Bulbazak · Post Post #3251 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:13 am

I'm having some computer issues, so I'll be posting from a library for the foreseeable future. I only have 3 hrs. a day here to split between 3 games and whatever other work I have, and only on weekdays. I'll do my best to catch up, but I'll probably be behind for awhile, so don't get mad at me if I haven't answered your question yet, as I'm probably not to that point in the game. With that out of the way, let's begins:

In post 3005, Slandaar wrote: What is wrong with it? Why can't I think they are both scum? it is not his conclusion that is the issue its the way he got there in the first place.

What do you have a problem with? That I did a little meta research into him to try to solidify my read, or that I was unsure about how I felt about him after researching him? And if it's the latter, why is it scummy to place someone as null when you have 2 conflicting pieces of meta information?

In post 3011, ffullisade wrote: that you are not town reading me is bothering me especially since it is based on weird reasoning; it is why I am not reading you as town.

So you're reading him as scum, because he won't read you as town? That is horribad logic and is also called OMGUS.

In post 3011, ffullisade wrote:
Don't try to pretend otherwise.

see this is where I wonder if you honestly think I am on the opposite scum team as you cos of the winky face. I am not scum and you will get no cred with our lynch if that is what you are angling for. cos we are town.

This is weird and came out of nowhere. Why would you even think that Thor would get towncred by coming after you, or that even he would think that? Obviously you're playing a different game if you think this makes sense. This feels like some desperate AtE, rather than a point against Thor.

In post 3018, Nero Cain wrote:I have a question Bulb. I'm obviously a scum read for you since I "deflected" a question. Yesterday, I had felt that AK laid down a pretty opportunistic vote and she goes all "hey look at Bacde's vote!!!"

Why is my deflect scummy but hers isn't?

Quote please. I don't remember her saying that, and I don't have the time to find it. Also, it's like deflectception with you... Do you think that Kitty's scummy, and you want me to look at her instead? Is that it?

In post 3018, Nero Cain wrote:Also, the guy (KK) who asked me the question that I "deflected" doesn't even think I was deflecting. What do you think about that?

Am I supposed to base my scumhunting on what someone else thinks now? That's a sad defense. "Well, he doesn't think so, therefore it's not valid." Let's stick with the actual points, shall we.

Also, there are a lot of other things going on, why are you obsessed with something that is admittedly minor in the grand scheme of this game, instead of paying attention to what is going on now and actively scumhunting?

In post 3021, ffullisade wrote:
Maybe I consider Cephir's push on Red Ryu to make him look more town in retrospect?
Maybe I'm curious to get a read on Haylen, a player I've admitted to having not read any of and who replaced into a rather blatant null/lurker slot?
Maybe I just want to start the push on a wagon to see what reactions I get to it.
okay. or *maybe* you are just scum. *maybe* it really is that simple.

So he answers your question, and your go to response is still, "Well, uh, you're scum! How do you feel about that?". That's not an argument. That's desperation.

In post 3023, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3011, Thor665 wrote: How was how he reached a conclusion of 'null leaning slight scum' an issue to you? You made a lot of noise on the issue, but I failed to see his scum agenda there.
Clarify?
Well lets start from the beginning of my post shall we;

How is saying someone doesn't have experience playing with some of the more prominent players in the game useful? is it scumhunting? clearly not; so why is it in his thought process?

My first thought upon seeing his join date was that he should be more familiar with Majiffy than what he was letting on. However, unlike Om and HD, I had never heard of Cephrir, which is why I did a little bit of meta research. I found out that he had been out of the game for awhile and tended to lose a lot as town. All of this influenced my reads and kept him from being a straight up scumread. It made me want to observe him for a little while longer and base my reads off of his play. Is there something wrong with that, or are players not allowed to have complicated reads?

Also, I will not be voting until I'm caught up, as I'd really like to avoid accidentally hammering someone, and chances are that my reasons for voting may be outdated by the time I finally do catch up.

Going to finish the page I'm on, and then do this page by page, as that will be easier to manage time-wise.

P-edit: Holy crap! What happened in the meantime to put Thez at L-1? I guess I'll find out in the next 8 pages...

Kublai Khan · Post Post #3252 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:15 am

In post 3249, thezmon221 wrote:No, why would I?

Slandaar · Post Post #3253 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:26 am

Seems completely legit

Bacde · Post Post #3254 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:29 am

In post 3241, Slandaar wrote:Instead of the normal town thought of 'oh Thors probably red' (no reason hes not); he went with 'WHAT SLAND SCUM PUSHING THOR'

Even though he had me as town and thor as scum.

What I think you're getting riled up about is that all I wanted you to do was explain your reasoning--because you not explaining your reasoning is something I've seen you do before, in mini 1393, when you were bussing Thor. So I pointed that out to you hoping that you would explain why Thor is priority #1

to which you made a "clever" response by saying that if I thought you were bussing that I should vote Thor

...except I didn't have any evidence that you were bussing. All I saw was you pushing a case in the same way that you push cases when you are scum

but later you pushed in a townie way, which is why I have you as town

I know you have a MAJOR tendency to tunnel on town, so I don't expect you to ever change your read on me (despite my being able to fully and reasonably explain myself), and in a way its kinda good because now I have less of a chance of being killed at night

If you've been watching my play AT ALL, you might see that while I have Thor as "scum", I haven't pushed on him once. This is because I'm actually not sure about my read on Thor, which is why I push for people who I know are obviously scum (such as thezmon)

Bulbazak · Post Post #3255 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:37 am

In post 3035, Slandaar wrote:
In post 3031, Thor665 wrote: I disagree, where did you do that?
The part where I said he is saying pointless things in an attempt to look like he is putting in effort and scumhunting?

Yes, because doing meta research into a read you're not sure about is so effortless...

In post 3038, Slandaar wrote:I have had enough responding to walls time to cut to the core.
In post 663, Slandaar wrote:
In post 658, Bulbazak wrote: [*]Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players
An observation, but a pointless one; who cares?
OK this is scummy because...
In post 3025, Slandaar wrote: A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort
ie he is trying too hard to look town; it reads fake.

In post 658, Bulbazak wrote:Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players and his play isn't up to par with what I'd expect from someone of his experience. That'd normally land him in the same area of initial suspicion as Om, but I took a look at his wiki, and he has a win:loss ratio of 4:10 as town. That keeps him effectively in the null/scum area for now until I see something more conclusive.

Decided to post the whole thing, since Slaandar conveniently keeps only quoting the very beginning. I believe you can see that I explained everything clearly. Also, if you'd go back to the original post, you'll see that this is in response to Eddie Fenix, who asked me what my thoughts on the game were.

Will be starting page 123.

ISO · Post Post #3256 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:39 am

Wiki page for Universal Backup wrote:At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.

If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

thezmon221 · Post Post #3257 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:43 am

In post 3256, Cephrir wrote:
Wiki page for Universal Backup wrote:At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.
If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

mastin never told me I was a Friendly Neighbor after Syry's death.

Besides, wouldn't it have made more sense for me to be a 2-shot BP instead?

ISO · Post Post #3258 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:45 am

I guess that counts as a power role but the point remains

thezmon221 · Post Post #3259 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:24 am

Pretty sure that Universal Backups can't become Mason Recruiters either, and Friendly Neighbor is basically a weaker version of it. Only difference is the talk out of chat and guarantee that the target is pro-town.

ThAdmiral · Post Post #3260 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:26 am

I think it was an ambitious fake-claim given the circumstances, but ultimately a poor one.

ffullisade · Post Post #3261 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:31 am

Re the claim, I'm skeptical. Doies it make sense that universal backup would apply to a relatively weak or limited role?

In post 3218, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 3208, ffullisade wrote:Nacho, Bacde where is the town core?

- f
it's slowly coming together
he won't be able to resist me forever, and i'm working on what the hell thor is doing, and he's treating me sort of weird so far.
CTD is inactive, Desp is in...

Moliie agrees about Desp.

I've never played with Kublai Khan before, but his no-nonsense approach seems town to me.

@CTD what are your thoughts about these players? slandaar, desp, bacde, nacho, KK? Who are you reading as strongly town atm?

Same question to Desp.

- f

Nero Cain · Post Post #3262 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:38 am

his wagon went pretty fast though which always creeps me out.

ThAdmiral · Post Post #3263 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:47 am

In multiball it doesn't mean much, nero.

Slandaar · Post Post #3264 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:08 am

In post 3255, Bulbazak wrote: Decided to post the whole thing, since Slaandar conveniently keeps only quoting the very beginning. I believe you can see that I explained everything clearly. Also, if you'd go back to the original post, you'll see that this is in response to Eddie Fenix, who asked me what my thoughts on the game were.

Will be starting page 123.

When you say conveniently you mean Slandaar was talking about the first part of a post he made regarding this post which he fully addressed in the initial post but I have no clue what he and Thor are talking about?

Convenient indeed.

Slandaar · Post Post #3265 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:36 am

In post 3254, Bacde wrote: What I think you're getting riled up about is that all I wanted you to do was explain your reasoning--because you not explaining your reasoning is something I've seen you do before, in mini 1393, when you were bussing Thor. So I pointed that out to you hoping that you would explain why Thor is priority #1

I already explained my reasoning in the day Prior and Thor hadn't posted since so; What were you expecting me to say? except;

In post 3254, Bacde wrote: to which you made a "clever" response by saying that if I thought you were bussing that I should vote Thor

In post 3254, Bacde wrote: ...except I didn't have any evidence that you were bussing. All I saw was you pushing a case in the same way that you push cases when you are scum

Well you do... considering you think I pushed like that as scum bussing before then its logical I am playing to my bussing meta as scum again. Or; what was the point in saying it was inline with how I bus instead of just this is what I do as scum?

In post 3254, Bacde wrote: I know you have a MAJOR tendency to tunnel on town, so I don't expect you to ever change your read on me (despite my being able to fully and reasonably explain myself), and in a way its kinda good because now I have less of a chance of being killed at night

Do explain it then.

Bacde · Post Post #3266 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:42 am

In post 3265, Slandaar wrote:Well you do... considering you think I pushed like that as scum bussing before then its logical I am playing to my bussing meta as scum again. Or; what was the point in saying it was inline with how I bus instead of just this is what I do as scum?

This is where your confusion is coming from

I was just saying that you were doing something that you've done as scum

The bus comment wasn't me saying that you were bussing, it was me giving an example of you doing something in a similar way to when I've seen you play as scum

Bacde · Post Post #3267 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:43 am

In post 3265, Slandaar wrote:I already explained my reasoning in the day Prior and Thor hadn't posted since so; What were you expecting me to say? except;

I guess I forgot it?

Bacde · Post Post #3268 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:44 am

In post 3265, Slandaar wrote:Do explain it then.

Uh, that post WAS an explanation, as well as my other posts. I dunno what you are looking for here

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #3269 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:16 pm

In post 3261, ffullisade wrote:@CTD what are your thoughts about these players? slandaar, desp, bacde, nacho, KK? Who are you reading as strongly town atm?

I read all of the listed players as town except Nacho.

If Slandaar is scum, he's playing me very well. He's unafraid of how he looks to others, willing to take strong stances even if they go against the grain, pro-active with his vote and his attempts to get wagons going. In our QT, he's been more open to discuss reads than his in-thread persona and legitimately engaging me on those reads we disagree on. I'm not going to consider him unless neighbor-flips dictate it.

Desperado was among my strongest town reads yesterday. I thought the fact that he considered the massclaim suggestion with an open mind and supported it based on my argument strongly indicated a town mind-set and he followed this by stating pretty much what i was thinking at the respective moment in time on several occasions (most noteworthy in his attack against DGL). I thought the case against him as presented by Nacho was weak and that he defended against it as reasonably as can be expected. Hasn't done much of anything today except claim and wagon Thez, but I'm not really concerned.

With Bacde, all I saw was noise for the longest time, but once I went back and looked closer and saw that there was actually meat to his argument against Nacho, I changed my opinion of him and basically accepted him as town from then on out. This was encouraged by the fact that he had no trouble finding another bone to grind after he got over Nacho and he's been doing the grinding on the right bones for the most part. I'm probably over-explaining this because the fact of the matter is that I've simply realized he's town at some point.

KK is probably the weakest town-read out of these and mostly based on tone, strength of argument and consistency, all of which can be faked by competent scum (which I know he is). I don't think it's fruitful to try to figure him without some more bodies to judge him by, so I'm just going to take him at face value for the time being.

I never got around to reread Nacho, so my read on him is probably somewhat out of date. You can reference my ISO for why I thought he was scum yesterday. He was very vocal and active while under pressure and at the end of the day, and it feels like now that he's been given room to breathe, he's blending back in a bit, not displaying the same kind of drive. This is mostly based on memory and may not be a very good representation of his play, but I have stronger reads now and can't really be bothered to go back and check.

Other town reads are Thor and Haylen, for reasons I'm pretty sure I've explained before.

-------------------------

I'm obviously skeptical of Thezmon's claim. It's convenient (no danger of being contradicted), more or less impossible to prove and stretches believability (in my experience, back-ups are typically informed when they inherit a power and 2-shot BP is certainly an unconventional power to back-up). The only thing that makes me think this might be a truthful claim is the fact that he's claiming pretty much the same thing OS got lynched for yesterday, which makes it seem very low-gain in terms of scum gambits. Maybe that makes sense in a game with two scum factions though.

In other news, Cephrir is transparently scum regardless of Thezmon's alignment.

In post 3256, Cephrir wrote:
Wiki page for Universal Backup wrote:At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.
If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

In post 3258, Cephrir wrote:I guess that counts as a power role but the point remains

No, the point doesn't remain, it has to be reconsidered from another angle (even if the conclusion stays the same). This is classic scum-pushing, narrow-minded and inflexible. I have no reason to doubt that Cephrir legitimately believes Thezmon to be scum, but he's not going about it in a remotely town way.

I'm fine with a Thezmon lynch, but the day is still young and I'd like Cephrir sorted out.

unvote, vote: Cephrir

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #3270 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:23 pm

Because they were asking, I forgot to mention that ffullisade is a town read as well and a strong one at that. They've had a ton of interaction with a wide variety of players, both engaged by themselves and forced on them by others and their side of the argument almost uniformly felt town to me. There's also been a large number of people who have stated strong meta reasons to read the slot as town, to the point where I feel they can't all be wrong.

Bacde · Post Post #3271 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:30 pm

Willingness to lynch Cephrir rising

The claim from thezmon was unexpected, to say the least

not sure if its legit or not

<<< Alt-slip deleted. >>>

ISO · Post Post #3272 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:42 pm

In post 3269, CrashTextDummie wrote: In other news, Cephrir is transparently scum regardless of Thezmon's alignment.

In post 3256, Cephrir wrote:
Wiki page for Universal Backup wrote:At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.
If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

In post 3258, Cephrir wrote:I guess that counts as a power role but the point remains
No, the point doesn't remain, it has to be reconsidered from another angle (even if the conclusion stays the same). This is classic scum-pushing, narrow-minded and inflexible. I have no reason to doubt that Cephrir legitimately believes Thezmon to be scum, but he's not going about it in a remotely town way.

I'm fine with a Thezmon lynch, but the day is still young and I'd like Cephrir sorted out.

unvote, vote: Cephrir

There are ways to paint me as scum, but this isn't one of them. The point absolutely remains, the point being that if thez was actually a Universal Backup, one way or another, he should have been notified that he is now backing something up, which doesn't seem to have occurred. If you think I legitimately believe thez to be scum, what does it matter how I push him unless you want to argue that it's not genuine? (Which you're not)

It's okay though, I know I'm not going to make it through a game with a decent player list without being lynched, I never have, so you might as well get it over with.

ThAdmiral · Post Post #3273 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:54 pm

I actually don't see what cephrir said that makes him scum.

ISO · Post Post #3274 (ISO) » Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:56 pm

Eh, everyone's pretty much been babbling about it without giving a lot of reasons since I argued with B&B 115 pages ago.

I'm a really easy and uncontroversial scumread to have. Need someone to pad your scumlist? Why not Cephrir?