NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Bulbazak]

/confirm. I see the Beast is in...

[Bulbazak]

*Reads Baby Spice's signature*

I like her already...

[Bulbazak]

vote:TUA

[Bulbazak]

Fuzzy!

[Bulbazak]

Fuzzy, I've read quite a few Majiffy games. I always think he's scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'm sad that in the first game I'm playing with Majiffy, he's in a hydra. Also, who is this third hydra everyone is talking about? I only counted 2.

[Bulbazak]

Who said something about a third Hydra?

I probably just misunderstood you. You'd talk about Mollie, and then later in the same post mention "that other hydra". I thought you were talking about a third hydra, hence the confusion.

I'm sad that in the first game I'm playing with Majiffy, he's in a hydra.

I feel like we've played a game together before, but I could be wrong.

Depends. Were you part of a super secret hydra?

[Bulbazak]

Which reminds me, I need to go back to the future...

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, not mass-claiming. Sorry. I've had some bad experiences with mass claims in games, and every time it led to a scum victory, because the game became less about scum hunting and scum tells and more about what was probable. It also puts our PRs in harms way. I'd rather catch scum the old fashioned way while the PRs do their job in secret, until they feel it is in the best interest of the town to out themselves. So sorry, not claiming. Deal with it.

Vote Oversoul

Didn't like the way he reacted to pressure in the pre-game and how he contradicted himself. Not buying the claim.

[Bulbazak]

What's bad about it?

[Bulbazak]

Amurika Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25487

True Love: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=26454

[Bulbazak]

AA9, we're still 8 away from lynch, so it's not like we're going to be lynching Oversoul at the end of the day. I actually took the size of the wagon into account before I voted, and I felt I had adequate enough reason to do so, especially with the information gathered from d0 (I had a decent scumread on him then.). If the wagon starts reaching dangerous levels quickly, then yes, we need to take a step back and examine how and why, but for right now, we're still all right. If you have another reason for why this wagon is bad, other than speed, please feel free to speak up.

P-edit @Nacho: But the massclaim in Amurika also allowed Peregrine to escape being lynched for 2 days, because he wrote off any reason given as having to do with his name claim. He made it to Lylo because the claim gave him cover. The role and name claims became a distraction more than a help, and scum, especially Peregrine, were able to get farther than they should.

[Bulbazak]

@Nacho: Fair enough. Still don't like them.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

[Bulbazak]

[

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?

Yes, I will not claim as part of a massclaim. I seriously hate it that much. I understand that I may die because of it (see Newbie 1337), but at least that leaves something secret and unknown to scum (Tracey was right in this regard, and she should not have claimed during Amurika Mafia.).

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?

Yes, I will not claim as part of a massclaim. I seriously hate it that much. I understand that I may die because of it (see Newbie 1337), but at least that leaves something secret and unknown to scum (Tracey was right in this regard, and she should not have claimed during Amurika Mafia.).

But leaving things secret in a massclaim is not that important, especially so early on. Scum won't care about your role when they have plenty of other power roles to go through; meanwhile, the scum we can catch will be hiding behind your refusal. It doesn't help anyone if you refuse to massclaim but don't stop the massclaim; in fact, that's pretty much the most anti-town way you can respond to the plan.

I've let my thoughts on the matter be known and have stated emphatically that I am against a mass claim. I believe it to be detrimental to town in the long run and have repeatedly stated that not only is it a bad idea, but I don't want to be a part of it. That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do. Now I suggest we start actually looking for scum, as the mass claim discussion has become a major distraction.

[Bulbazak]

Majiffy's "oh you must not think highly of him then!" is a somewhat-subtle "yes thor is awesome go fuck yourself"

Om's recent posts are hilarious, because they either mean that they are not familiar with Majiffy's meta at all, or that they are scum trying to push for an early mislynch on a player that tends to look anti-town. The buddying accusation is my favorite, as Majiffy doesn't buddy up to anyone, except for Majiffy. I suggest watching this wagon closely, as I can see scum pushing it hard.

[Bulbazak]

Majiffy's "oh you must not think highly of him then!" is a somewhat-subtle "yes thor is awesome go fuck yourself"

Om's recent posts are hilarious, because they either mean that they are not familiar with Majiffy's meta at all, or that they are scum trying to push for an early mislynch on a player that tends to look anti-town. The buddying accusation is my favorite, as Majiffy doesn't buddy up to anyone, except for Majiffy. I suggest watching this wagon closely, as I can see scum pushing it hard.

So are you calling me scum or backhandedly discrediting me?

Leaning scum, because I don't think you're that stupid.

@Fuzzy: What is your reasoning for your last 2 votes? Looks like sheeping to me, and that doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings about your slot.

If I'm correct, Nero was silenced. That doesn't entitle him to a PR, that means mafia silenced him.

It's a rule of three kind of thing.

I call bull on him being silenced.

How do you know that mafia didn't silence him?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb-you'll live.

You still didn't answer my question.

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes.

Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.

Him trying to lead the town to vote someone day 1 with no real backing, and the overall attitude of the player has my scum radar going off the charts right now.

Eddie, this is my one and only suggestion, and only because I know you, but I suggest you check out Majiffy's meta before you proceed with this line of reasoning, otherwise you're going to get steamrolled.

[Bulbazak]

Alright, so, the Oversoul wagon is reasonable, and I have no qualms with 3 of the 4 voters. Bulbazak is the odd man out, due to Slandaar's Post 479. There is strange dissonance in those two posts from Bulbazak.

Probably because I know Eddie IRL, and I know where he was coming from with his B&B vote. He is used to playing a specific type of site meta where "leading the town" is considered scummy. With only 1 newbie game, he's not used to the play from more experienced players which quickly refute such a stupid belief. He is also not familiar with anyone's particular meta, and therefore doesn't know that Majiffy always comes across as anti-town and is a very volatile player. I was simply giving him a friendly warning as a friend, because I knew he had no idea what he was getting himself into. If you want meta for this, I can give you links to 2 off-site games, and HD and Fuzzy can attest to the way that we interact with each other (Newbie 1349 if you don't want to ask).

Hey, also, Bulbazak demonstrates absolutely no conviction in the Oversoul wagon, he's just content to sit there and hide in the crowd. I don't detect any sense that he believes he's actually voting scum.

Oversoul was one of my 2 scum reads from d0. He had a knee-jerk reaction after being random voted, and it looked like scum who was caught for the wrong reasons. He spent the rest of the pre-game backpedaling. Then when the game began and CTD suggested a mass claim, he claimed innocent townie in response, and then later contradicted himself. His claim of 2 killing roles/factions is not enough to believe in him being an informed townie, for as scum he would know whether there was 1 scum faction or 2, and he could have easily used that information
to try to secure himself a title of "confirmed town", all while trying to defuse the mass claim. He hasn't said much all day, and besides AA9, no one has questioned the validity of the wagon, so why would I say anything more besides I think he is scum?

Also, explain how you go from this:

I really don't think Nachomamma8 is very likely scum at this juncture. Seems to me he's demonstrating a desire to make the game more difficult for scum through advocating the mass claim (my personal opinion is that early mass claims are functionally better for Town given that site meta so heavily discourages it, and scum get to hide behind "OMG SAVE THE PR'S", and scum aren't prepared for it. Forcing people to lock into a claim early takes away much of the ability of scum to craft a claim later when more is on the line. Well, plus, I derped a LYLO because of a fake claim that I believed and wouldn't have been possible to foresee that it would be beneficial if forced out early.). And, while Nachomamma8 hasn't really stressed this point, there was something significantly scummy about Oversoul's claim. That was the fact that he said he was planning to claim, but didn't when he made his first post. Then, after CrashtextDummie brought up the mass-claim, Oversoul took the easy "no way, man!" route, but then offererd his own claim up and said CrashTextDummie's idea had nothing to do with him claiming. So, Nachomamma8 pushing the Oversoul wagon seems to come from a Town motivated mind set, to me.

to this:

@Nachomamma8

Walk me through why you think Oversoul would throw out such a silly and useless claim as scum. I mean, I get the fact that the claim doesn't amount to anything worthwhile. Still, I can't quite imagine someone with a scum role PM reacting to the mass claim proposal by going, "No massclaim guys, but I'm gonna make a worthless fake claim". Seems like the scum response would be much more likely to just take the "pro-Town" line of "mass claim is baaaaaad, we've got to protect our PR's at all costs, no way I'm claiming anything!".

It seemed like a complete 180 to me. You start with saying Nacho is not scum, because of the Oversoul push, and that you understand his reasoning. Then 1 post later, you are questioning Nacho about the Oversoul push and his reasoning. It does not compute and looks like a contradiction to me.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not scum Nero and you continue to show your inability to read me

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

Fair enough but it is annoying and ruins my enjoyment when I have a player who always calls me scum regardless of whether or not I am scum and I just wanted to tell you that :/

Suck it up, you baby...

Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely stupid and scummy.
Mmm hmm.

So not denying it. Gotcha.

[Bulbazak]

A similar thing can be credited to our friend over here;

That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do.

The simple version is yes you can influence it if you really believe its not good for town you make sure it doesn't happen, he just doesn't want to. A massclaim where he as scum doesn't claim? Christmas came early!

Nice misrep. But let's look at the full quote shall we:

I've let my thoughts on the matter be known and have stated emphatically that I am against a mass claim. I believe it to be detrimental to town in the long run and have repeatedly stated that not only is it a bad idea, but I don't want to be a part of it. That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do. Now I suggest we start actually looking for scum, as the mass claim discussion has become a major distraction.

Now unless you are suggesting that I have some sort of godlike power to prevent people from massclaiming, what more do you want me to do?

[Bulbazak]

Interesting to note that Bulba calls BatB a mislynch and that "scum will be pushing the wagon hard" despite saying he always reads Majiffy as scum.

And then I got a strong town read on them due to d0. Please try to keep up.

Well if you were town you could try to convince others not to do it. Perhaps argue why its a bad idea.

I've stated why I'm against it. I've not only had bad experiences with mass claims, but I also believe them to be detrimental to the town. You're seriously beating a dead horse here.

[Bulbazak]

Fuzzy, do you have anything of substance to say?

[Bulbazak]

You never answered my question Fuzzy.

[Bulbazak]

I can already tell you that most of my reads in this game are going to be strictly gut, unless I see something direly scummy going on.

Hmm...

[Bulbazak]

I can already tell you that most of my reads in this game are going to be strictly gut, unless I see something direly scummy going on.

Hmm...

Hint: This is not as scummy as you think

So, scumbuddy. Got it.

[Bulbazak]

Why is Fuzzy town?

[Bulbazak]

Maybe we should make it a round?

[Bulbazak]

B&B, why'd you unvote? Because of Nero? I'm not seeing any reasoning here, and it just doesn't feel right to me.

[Bulbazak]

It's not like your logic wasn't complete garbage, or like Om had just posted really good reasons to vote you as had I in my previous post....

Wait... Om had good reasons to vote B&B?! I must have missed that...

[Bulbazak]

It's not like your logic wasn't complete garbage, or like Om had just posted really good reasons to vote you as had I in my previous post....

Wait... Om had good reasons to vote B&B?! I must have missed that...

You should probably just vote Cephrir.

Thanks!

I like my vote where it is for now. Oversoul has pinged my scumdar harder than Cephrir, who is more in the null/scum range. I could get behind an Om wagon, though.

[Bulbazak]

Is that all you've got, Eddie?

[Bulbazak]

omg HD my skype hasn't received your message
I'm probably not going to be completely on the same page as HD until we can get something going (hooray for planning ahead ).
So it'll probably be fine tomorrow.

~Pertayter

Look. A useless post.

Is that all you've got, Eddie?

Yup. Gonna sit here, take it easy, and gather info. Unless you have any questions you wanna ask me.

Lurking. Got it.

[Bulbazak]

omg HD my skype hasn't received your message
I'm probably not going to be completely on the same page as HD until we can get something going (hooray for planning ahead ).
So it'll probably be fine tomorrow.

~Pertayter

Look. A useless post.

Is there any way you can actually make a decent attack on our slot at all this game?
I mean seriously if you want to attack a post like that you might as well attack anybody declaring V/LA in the future.
Also some of your posts are useless too bby

~Pertayter

First, I was just noting it for future reference. If I was full on attacking you, you'd know it.

Second, the difference between someone declaring V/LA and your post is that you essentially said "I can't talk to HD. Not going to say anything else.". There was no point in saying any of this, as you could just as easily have messaged HD via PM. This was posting for posting's sake.

Third, this is a deflection. I'm sure you can find several useless posts in pre-game, but once the game officially started, I've tried to keep my posts somewhat game related.

I think Oversoul can wait. Om is definitely scum.

Unvote

Vote Om the Destroyer

P-edit: Looks like I made the right call...

[Bulbazak]

Hmm... Usually, you have questions or accusations for me, Bulba... Or at least you give me food for thought/ideas to play with... Hell, we haven't even had that much banter so far... Anything on your mind right now (game wise)?

• Mass claiming is bad
  
• Oversoul and Om are scum. Red Ryu is likely scum as well.
  
• B&B, Kitty, and Bacde are town (Bacde because of Rofl). Thor is probably town as well.
  
• Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players and his play isn't up to par with what I'd expect from someone of his experience. That'd normally land him in the same area of initial suspicion as Om, but I took a look at his wiki, and he has a win:loss ratio of 4:10 as town. That keeps him effectively in the null/scum area for now until I see something more conclusive.
  
• Slandaar, although being against mass claiming, has since only focused on the mass claim discussion, more specifically on why I dislike mass claims, essentially prolonging it. I'd like to see his thoughts on more recent events.
  
• Fuzzy is coming off as slightly scummy, mainly because of his refusal to engage and answer the questions asked of him.
  
• Nacho is Nacho and probably won't be readable for awhile. The current mode of investigation on him is ridiculous and won't lead to any definitive reads.

Was there something more specific you wanted to ask? What did you gather from the pre-game (d0)?

[Bulbazak]

First, I was just noting it for future reference. If I was full on attacking you, you'd know it.

Cool, I'll note this for future reference too. Btw what future reference would that even be for?

Twofold: 1.) Anything I find strange or scummy I point out for the benefit of the entire town. 2.) It also serves as a handy reference point for any time I review my ISO and the case against you.

Second, the difference between someone declaring V/LA and your post is that you essentially said "I can't talk to HD. Not going to say anything else.". There was no point in saying any of this, as you could just as easily have messaged HD via PM. This was posting for posting's sake.

I don't even know how you managed to get 'Not going to say anything' from 'We might not be on the same page for at least a day'. At least get your facts right.

So arguing semantics rather than the major point of the quote. This makes you less scummy how?

Third, this is a deflection. I'm sure you can find several useless posts in pre-game, but once the game officially started, I've tried to keep my posts somewhat game related.

Right now is my pregame thanks. I hope you realise I've openly stated that I've barely read any of the game. However I don't particularly need to. Also :meta reasons: useless posts are a frequent pastime of mine.

Translation: "I'm going to be a useless lurksack."

Fucking lol. Please, tell me why we're even scum in the first place. Your arguments aren't even scumtells.
Useless posting isn't a scummy thing unless it's done repeatedly (and I've only been in this game for a day). Informing people about things like activity and potential dissonance isn't a scummy thing either, it's just being fucking informative. Attacking someone who is easily perceived as anti-town doesn't even say why the fuck we're scum. If someone is perceived as anti-town, you'd vote them, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Just because they have a history of looking anti-town doesn't mean they aren't scum. Your chainsaw defense of B&B is meta-related without any evidence to support your statements. Not to mention that you've tried to discredit us multiple times too....

Full case coming later today.

Post 657 is complete trash.

How is it "complete trash"?

Also I'd kinda like to know why I'm definitely scum compared to OS when:
According to you, I'm scum because: Useless posting and attacking someone you think is town for meta reasons.
According to you, OS is scum because: Bad knee-jerk reaction to RVS vote, backpedaling, contradicting claims, suspicions on trying to use claim to gain townie status and he hasn't said very much at all.
(Note: I don't exactly support the OS wagon right now (nor do I entirely oppose it), this is just my interpretation of his reasons for suspecting either of us)

Like seriously wtf? If you're going to attack OS for a bad knee-jerk reaction to a vote then I'm pretty much going to do the same for you, only in your case there wasn't even a vote before you started reacting terribly (as evidenced by your P-EDIT).

~Pertayter

Translation: "Why aren't you still attacking the scummier Oversoul? Seriously, look how scummy he is!"

That'd normally land him in the same area of initial suspicion as Om,

Why? because he doesn't play as well as you think he should when you have no idea how he normally plays? and because of this he would be 'definite scum'?

No, my "initial suspicion". Majiffy is a prominent player on the site, and Om's reaction to him was strange, as I'd think they, or at least HD, would be familiar with his meta. This was enough to raise an eyebrow. It was the same thing with Cephrir. Om didn't reach "definite scum" status until later, after doing some genuinely scummy things.

but I took a look at his wiki, and he has a win:loss ratio of 4:10 as town. That keeps him effectively in the null/scum area for now until I see something more conclusive.

So, your whole argument was hes experienced and not playing how you would expect someone of that experience to play, you then find out hes not very good as town (or I assume thats what you are suggesting your conclusion is) and so hes still leaning scum for not playing well even though he is matching his own meta or how you perceive it (of not playing well)?

The whole experience question was why I checked out his wiki in the first place. It was there that I found his win/loss records. This made me think that he just might be making bad arguments, and, therefore, was not necessarily scummy. However, I'm not going to dismiss any earlier inclinations that he might be scum, just because of stats, as I have no clue whether this is his town play or not. All it did was keep him from going into the scum section.

[Bulbazak]

So, let me get this right... You're saying that you have him at null right now on principal from other peoples scum claims and "bad arguments"? Looks like to me you're trying to cover your ass without looking too obvious that you are covering it.

The Om-HD hydra vs. Cephrir: I have played with HD before and have heard of Om. Their experience on the site conflicts with their lack of meta-knowledge on Majiffy, another prominent member on the site, who HD has mentioned being familiar with. Cephrir has been on the site since around 2006. He is also not familiar with Majiffy meta-wise, and he isn't playing in a way I'd expect a seasoned player to. However, unlike HD, Om, Majiffy, and others, I'm not familiar with his name. Therefore I decided to check him out via his wiki, where I came across his game statistics. This keeps him from going into the main "scum" pile, meaning he is still a null/scum read. Did I stutter that time?

Now that I'm back home, I'm going to get that Om case ready. Be prepared, it might take awhile to sort all of the quotes.

[Bulbazak]

The Om Case:

page 6

rofl was towntowntown

Lots of buddying from B&B, they can be scum with Ryu. Thor is probably town. So is Cephrir I think?

~

I've already said why this is a bad point. First, I couldn't remember any sort of buddy type interaction between Majiffy and Thor, so I went back to page 6 to check it out. Wouldn't you know, they don't really interact with each other, AT ALL. Majiffy says one thing on this page, and it has nothing to do with Thor. Second, Majiffy is one of those players that NEVER buddies, mostly because of the type of player he is. I would have expected HD, as a more prominent player, to be familiar enough with Majiffy's meta to know that the buddying accusation is absurd.

But Bulba

, you might say.

What if HD has never played with Majiffy before, and therefore, is not...

And no, agreeing with you is not a basis and not necessarily town motivated, and

I know you're a better player than that.

Nevermind. Continue with your case...

You must not think very highly of Thor to be saying this like this.

Obvious sucking up to Thor since this was a completely useless comment unrelated to rofl's that he was responding to.

Yeah, you might have a point. I mean if it's unrelated to Rofl's brilliant...

I don't disagree with that.

Why is Cephrir town, I don't see it. He appears to be playing up a concept that makes little sense, while accusing me of the same, combining hypocrisy and also skeevy apparent intent in vote placement.
I want him dead.
What am I missing?

you're already blinded by beautyandthebeast trying to make you their pet townie

Actually, nevermind.

That post is both insulting to Thor and B&B. No wonder they made that comment. Not buddying.

Besides, if I was scum, I'd just kill him when it's opportune like I did last time I played scum against him. And I consider what you said an insult; you disputed his competency with that comment.

*snip*

If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.

More subtle, but still there, especially with that cute little white knight motivation of "Oh you insulted Thor how DARE you! RAWRGLEBARGLE"

Wow. That looks really bad.

Let's go back and look at the original:

though I do admit that I can see the reason behind the Cephir vote what I don't get though, is the Thor wagon.

Thor wagon is probably just a half-assed attempt at a pressure wagon. I'm not sold on OS either. You should vote Cephrir. If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.

You mean the original point had nothing to do with Rofl or Thor? It was about B&B and Kitty's scumread on Cephrir? What can this mean?

Okay I only read from page 10-15 because everything kinda went over my head but I support HD's B&B vote but not for the reasons that I read (don't ask me what my reasons are either, it's mainly gut ).
Also AA is pretty much town.
Everything else kinda went over my head.

I'm probably just going to watch a bit from the sidelines as the game goes on before I really step in.

Also HD is totes crampin mah style.

Urgh, smileys

~Pertayter

Translation from the Om head: "I'll be lurking over here if you need me."

Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?

1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only

ever

about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

1) ...no, it still applies. If your reads are even mostly based on who agrees with you or not, they still are horrible. It's like saying 1 or 2 good reads makes up for 10 bad reads, it makes no sense.
2) Provably incorrect:

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s.

As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes.

Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

So yes, you saying your list was largely based on whether or not people agreed with you was in response to Cephrir saying the same. Only the second half of said post talked about Slandaar and AA9 specifically.

~

HD calls this an inconsistency and seeks to prove it with bolded phrase. Ignores the sentence before it asking about the 2 reads specifically.

-snip-

So by my count, in this post, you've declared 3 scumreads, one of which is "scummy as hell", another of which deserves an FoS. Where's your vote?

Went back to look at Kitty's post. She doesn't outright declare ANY reads, instead only asking questions or clarifications from 3 people. She does call Cephrir scummy because of some recent posts, but she FoS's him for it. Where did you learn to read?

Leaning scum, because I don't think you're that stupid.

Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely stupid and scummy.
Mmm hmm.

Nice strawman. I called you scum, because I don't believe you to be stupid. The 2 were never connected.

omg HD my skype hasn't received your message
I'm probably not going to be completely on the same page as HD until we can get something going (hooray for planning ahead ).
So it'll probably be fine tomorrow.

~Pertayter

Already stated how useless this post was and that it gave you a reason to lurk later.

Look. A useless post.

Is there any way you can actually make a decent attack on our slot at all this game?
I mean seriously if you want to attack a post like that you might as well attack anybody declaring V/LA in the future.
Also some of your posts are useless too bby

Deflection.

Second, the difference between someone declaring V/LA and your post is that you essentially said "I can't talk to HD. Not going to say anything else.". There was no point in saying any of this, as you could just as easily have messaged HD via PM. This was posting for posting's sake.

I don't even know how you managed to get 'Not going to say anything' from 'We might not be on the same page for at least a day'. At least get your facts right.

More deflection via semantics.

Right now is my pregame thanks. I hope you realise I've openly stated that I've barely read any of the game. However I don't particularly need to. Also :meta reasons: useless posts are a frequent pastime of mine.

Giving himself another excuse to active lurk.

Fucking lol. Please, tell me why we're even scum in the first place. Your arguments aren't even scumtells.
Useless posting isn't a scummy thing unless it's done repeatedly (and I've only been in this game for a day). Informing people about things like activity and potential dissonance isn't a scummy thing either, it's just being fucking informative. Attacking someone who is easily perceived as anti-town doesn't even say why the fuck we're scum. If someone is perceived as anti-town, you'd vote them, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Just because they have a history of looking anti-town doesn't mean they aren't scum. Your chainsaw defense of B&B is meta-related without any evidence to support your statements. Not to mention that you've tried to discredit us multiple times too....

~Pertayter

Flailing.

Also I'd kinda like to know why I'm definitely scum compared to OS when:
According to you, I'm scum because: Useless posting and attacking someone you think is town for meta reasons.
According to you, OS is scum because: Bad knee-jerk reaction to RVS vote, backpedaling, contradicting claims, suspicions on trying to use claim to gain townie status and he hasn't said very much at all.
(Note: I don't exactly support the OS wagon right now (nor do I entirely oppose it), this is just my interpretation of his reasons for suspecting either of us)

Like seriously wtf? If you're going to attack OS for a bad knee-jerk reaction to a vote then I'm pretty much going to do the same for you, only in your case there wasn't even a vote before you started reacting terribly (as evidenced by your P-EDIT).

~Pertayter

Explained why this was bad. Tries to deflect attention off them and onto OS, who they have repeatedly called town.

In conclusion: Misrepping, deflecting, setting up reasons to active lurk, and outright lying. The last one is a good enough reason on it's own to lynch them. Let's make this happen.

[Bulbazak]

bulb, would you stop ignoring what's going on between me, Mollie, Despo, and Nacho. Why no comment?

Because I didn't feel that strongly about it one way or another. I posted my thoughts about the current Nacho push in my list of thoughts. Nacho may be scum, but the reasons currently being given are not enough to make me think so.

in other news I am not sure what to make of bulb's mancrush on majiffy I mean omg

Worried you might be replaced?

So, let me get this right... You're saying that you have him at null right now on principal from other peoples scum claims and "bad arguments"? Looks like to me you're trying to cover your ass without looking too obvious that you are covering it.

The Om-HD hydra vs. Cephrir: I have played with HD before and have heard of Om. Their experience on the site conflicts with their lack of meta-knowledge on Majiffy, another prominent member on the site, who HD has mentioned being familiar with. Cephrir has been on the site since around 2006. He is also not familiar with Majiffy meta-wise, and he isn't playing in a way I'd expect a seasoned player to. However, unlike HD, Om, Majiffy, and others, I'm not familiar with his name. Therefore I decided to check him out via his wiki, where I came across his game statistics. This keeps him from going into the main "scum" pile, meaning he is still a null/scum read. Did I stutter that time?

Now that I'm back home, I'm going to get that Om case ready. Be prepared, it might take awhile to sort all of the quotes.

Still not a good enough/compelling argument coming from you imo (YET. I still need to read your LONG post about this that is coming soon). But, by the looks of it, you're trying to base this argument on seasoned player meta knowledge vs seasoned player actions/play style.

I think you're failing to understand the original question, which had to do with why Cephrir is null/scum, but yet Om is scum, even though I was initially suspicious of both of them for the same reasons. The simple answer is that Cephrir hasn't been as scummy as Om. The meta/wiki reasoning was to show how the same sort of suspicion led to different reads. If you don't understand it after I've explained it 4 plus times, I can't really help you.

P-edit: Oh this will be good. Om is preparing to lie about lying.

[Bulbazak]

so you are chick huh

Nah, dude. Just wanted to have some fun with you.

why are you hardcore buddying us? cos that is what you are doing and while majiffy will be flattered, I am not impressed. you seem to "have meta" on majiffy when you have stated that you have never played with him before.

When I was preparing for my first Mafia game, I read many games, several of which happened to have Majiffy in them. Your hydra's actions during pre-game gave me a very strong townread of you. Om was presenting an argument that was so stupid that I felt I had to address it. I tend to defend my townreads, especially when it's over something as dumb as what Om presented. However, when he actually had a decent point, I didn't say anything.

P-edit: I'll get to Om's wall later. Right now I'm going to eat.

[Bulbazak]

Misrep Tally: 1

I never said it was on Page 6; as can be evidenced from my other posts, this meant I had REACHED Page 6.

Then that would make it a misunderstanding instead of a misrep. Misrep's are purposeful. Misunderstandings are not. Besides, it being on page 6 was not the main focus of that point, which would make this a strawman.

Second, Majiffy is one of those players that NEVER buddies, mostly because of the type of player he is. I would have expected HD, as a more prominent player, to be familiar enough with Majiffy's meta to know that the buddying accusation is absurd.

Misrep Tally: 2

If Majiffy never buddies, EVER, explain to me how I was able to point out buddying spots in Post 288.

I addressed post #288 further in my case. Your reasoning is crappy and fictitious.

But Bulba

, you might say.

What if HD has never played with Majiffy before, and therefore, is not...

And no, agreeing with you is not a basis and not necessarily town motivated, and

I know you're a better player than that.

Nevermind. Continue with your case...

Misrep Tally: 3

In order for this to even be valid, I'd have to be in games where Majiffy and Thor were in a game

together

. This happened twice, and in both of them Majiffy was scum. (Thor was town in both but got culted in one)

This section belongs with the previous quote, as they are part of the same point. I was silencing the notion that you were not familiar with Majiffy's play, which you have admitted that you are. Again, from reading what I have of Majiffy's meta, I find the whole concept of him buddying patently absurd, especially when there is no evidence of it. Now if you had provided evidence and said that it reminds you of the time you played with Majiffy-scum and Thor-town, then you might have a point. Instead you just threw out the idea that Majiffy was buddying Thor, and then sat back and hoped people would latch onto it.

You must not think very highly of Thor to be saying this like this.

Obvious sucking up to Thor since this was a completely useless comment unrelated to rofl's that he was responding to.

Yeah, you might have a point. I mean if it's unrelated to Rofl's brilliant...

I don't disagree with that.

Why is Cephrir town, I don't see it. He appears to be playing up a concept that makes little sense, while accusing me of the same, combining hypocrisy and also skeevy apparent intent in vote placement.
I want him dead.
What am I missing?

you're already blinded by beautyandthebeast trying to make you their pet townie

Actually, nevermind.

That post is both insulting to Thor and B&B. No wonder they made that comment. Not buddying.

Misrep Tally: 4

There is no insult in said post. Roflcopter makes an observation that B&TB is buddying with Thor. This is Mafia 101, not Preschool.

Would you also like to explain why Thor never expressed that he was insulted by this statement,

but in fact said it was entirely possible that B&TB WAS buddying him

?

First, that post is more about Thor being blindly led around by Majiffy, not about Majiffy buddying. This, in turn, makes Thor look inept, which he is not. Second, Thor didn't pay it any attention whatsoever, and in fact, continued to pressure Rofl and ask him why he was ignoring Thor's question.

Besides, if I was scum, I'd just kill him when it's opportune like I did last time I played scum against him. And I consider what you said an insult; you disputed his competency with that comment.

*snip*

If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.

More subtle, but still there, especially with that cute little white knight motivation of "Oh you insulted Thor how DARE you! RAWRGLEBARGLE"

Wow. That looks really bad.

Let's go back and look at the original:

though I do admit that I can see the reason behind the Cephir vote what I don't get though, is the Thor wagon.

Thor wagon is probably just a half-assed attempt at a pressure wagon. I'm not sold on OS either. You should vote Cephrir. If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.

You mean the original point had nothing to do with Rofl or Thor? It was about B&B and Kitty's scumread on Cephrir? What can this mean?

Misrep Tally: 6

Yes, I'm counting that as two misreps.

Here's why; it completely ignores the first part of my post (the one that quotes "And I consider what you said an insult; you disputed his competency with that comment.") which is fairly obviously what I was referring to, and uses the OTHER part of the post ("If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.") which is unrelated to said point, to act as if I had misrepped B&TB.

First, Rofl DID insult Thor's competency. Therefore, it is not buddying or white knighting. Second, you show great ability to trim off the parts of a quote you don't need. Therefore, if you were not using the end of that quote to imply what you were saying, you would have gotten rid of it. Yet you didn't, which tells me that you were trying to draw a connection between the 2 ends of the post, one which does not exist btw.

Inconsistency ho!

1

Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?

1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only

ever

about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

2

1) ...no, it still applies. If your reads are even mostly based on who agrees with you or not, they still are horrible. It's like saying 1 or 2 good reads makes up for 10 bad reads, it makes no sense.
2) Provably incorrect

3

:

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s

5

.

As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

4

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes.

Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

So yes, you saying your list was largely based on whether or not people agreed with you was in response to Cephrir saying the same. Only the second half of said post talked about Slandaar and AA9 specifically.

~

HD calls this an inconsistency and seeks to prove it with bolded phrase. Ignores the sentence before it asking about the 2 reads specifically.

Misrep Tally: 7 (Hey guys, we're up to 7 misreps IN ONE POST. If you aren't voting Bulbazak yet, you now have some 'splainin' to do.)

The word "it" fairly obviously refers to the list, so B&TB is

clearly responding to the sentence I bolded.

The second part of the post

clearly referred to the point made about his AA9 and Slandaar reads.

IMPORTANT: THE WORD "IT" IS SINGULAR AND CANNOT MEAN "2 SPECIFIC TOWN READS I HAVE".

This is 1st grade reading comprehension folks.

Okay, I was hoping that people could read, but I'm going to have to spell it out for you:
[

1

] Om calls Majiffy saying #322 was referring only to 2 reads an inconsistancy.
[

2

] Majiffy reaffirms this.
[

3

] Om says "provably incorrect", which means he's going to disprove it without a shadow of a doubt.
[

4

] He bolds a line from the text to prove that Majiffy's statement was universal.
[

5

] He ignores the line before it, where Cephrir is specifically asking about AA9 and Slandaar.

-snip-

So by my count, in this post, you've declared 3 scumreads, one of which is "scummy as hell", another of which deserves an FoS. Where's your vote?

Went back to look at Kitty's post. She doesn't outright declare ANY reads, instead only asking questions or clarifications from 3 people. She does call Cephrir scummy because of some recent posts, but she FoS's him for it. Where did you learn to read?

Misrep Tally: 10

Misreps Amethyst Kitty

2 times

AND myself. That counts as 3 misreps.

And just to prove it...

@Fenix:

So what did you learn after catching up? Because voting him without giving reasons or thoughts is quite -

well scummy as hell.

Then you call out Nero for doing the same thing. >.>

Scummy as hell.

Kitty asked Eddie what he had learned, and said that voting someone without reasonings is scummy. She never called Eddie scum.

@B&B:

Mollie answer my question or else I will have to go extreme measures. (You do not want this)

Strongly implied scumread.

Actually, Kitty had B&B as a townread. She was just very angry that they had not answered her yet.

I'm not liking this whole; "If I'm correct then Nero was silenced."

The whole PR or even fishing for information is scummy as hell.

So

FoS: Cephir.

SCUMREAD THAT DESERVED AN FOS.

So that's three scumreads, dawg.

She does call Cephrir scummy because of some recent posts, but she FoS's him for it.

Where did I ever say that I disagreed with you. That post was just not about giving scumreads, it was about obtaining clarification. You tried to turn it into the opposite in an effort to paint Kitty as scummy.

Leaning scum, because I don't think you're that stupid.

Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely stupid and scummy.
Mmm hmm.

Nice strawman. I called you scum, because I don't believe you to be stupid. The 2 were never connected.

Misrep Tally: 12

Calls on word semantics to call this a strawman; counting this as 2.

You called the action scummy or stupid. This therefore implies I am scummy or stupid. You saying that calling it scummy or stupid isn't a connection is fucking ridiculous.

Yes, I originally said that you were either scummy or stupid. You turned that around to be me calling you scummy AND stupid, which was not what I said at all. I called you out on it, and you say I'm misrepping you, saying you said "scummy or stupid", which is not the case.

Look. A useless post.

Is there any way you can actually make a decent attack on our slot at all this game?
I mean seriously if you want to attack a post like that you might as well attack anybody declaring V/LA in the future.
Also some of your posts are useless too bby

Deflection.

Misrep Tally: 13

Om points out something legitimately scummy about Bulbazak, Bulb deflects it by calling it a deflection. (Ironic, right?)

I already covered this post here.

Second, the difference between someone declaring V/LA and your post is that you essentially said "I can't talk to HD. Not going to say anything else.". There was no point in saying any of this, as you could just as easily have messaged HD via PM. This was posting for posting's sake.

I don't even know how you managed to get 'Not going to say anything' from 'We might not be on the same page for at least a day'. At least get your facts right.

More deflection via semantics.

Misrep Tally: 14

Even more fucking ironic considering

Bulbazak is the one resorting to semantics here.

Covered this post here.

Fucking lol. Please, tell me why we're even scum in the first place. Your arguments aren't even scumtells.
Useless posting isn't a scummy thing unless it's done repeatedly (and I've only been in this game for a day). Informing people about things like activity and potential dissonance isn't a scummy thing either, it's just being fucking informative. Attacking someone who is easily perceived as anti-town doesn't even say why the fuck we're scum. If someone is perceived as anti-town, you'd vote them, otherwise you won't get anywhere. Just because they have a history of looking anti-town doesn't mean they aren't scum. Your chainsaw defense of B&B is meta-related without any evidence to support your statements. Not to mention that you've tried to discredit us multiple times too....

~Pertayter

Flailing.

Misrep Tally: 15

Another deflection of his scumminess being called out.

*Sigh* I was hoping this one would be obvious enough that I wouldn't have to break it up piece by piece and spoon feed it to you, but I guess not. I'll cover this one in its own post after this, as this response is long enough already.

Also I'd kinda like to know why I'm definitely scum compared to OS when:
According to you, I'm scum because: Useless posting and attacking someone you think is town for meta reasons.
According to you, OS is scum because: Bad knee-jerk reaction to RVS vote, backpedaling, contradicting claims, suspicions on trying to use claim to gain townie status and he hasn't said very much at all.
(Note: I don't exactly support the OS wagon right now (nor do I entirely oppose it), this is just my interpretation of his reasons for suspecting either of us)

Like seriously wtf? If you're going to attack OS for a bad knee-jerk reaction to a vote then I'm pretty much going to do the same for you, only in your case there wasn't even a vote before you started reacting terribly (as evidenced by your P-EDIT).

~Pertayter

Explained why this was bad. Tries to deflect attention off them and onto OS, who they have repeatedly called town.

Misrep Tally: 16

Calls this a deflection of attention to OS when Om

specifically says

he isn't particularly interested in the OS wagon. He's also calling this a deflection when Om is clearly using OS as an example of Bulbazak being hypocritical and NOT as wanting to wagon OS.

You (or your partner in this case) were trying to deflect attention away from your hydra by saying that I have no reason to attack you over OS, who I had already built a case on. This is essentially saying that I should look at the more scummy slot rather than your slot, which I pointed out at the time. It's essentially, "I'm not scummy. They're scummier than I am!".

and outright lying.

Misrep Tally: 20

This deserves special mention.

Nowhere in Bulbazak's case does he state that we are outright lying about anything.

This counts as two since he misrepped us AND his own case.[/spoiler]

I never outright stated it, but I did imply it. You completely mangling quotes to get them to say what you wanted is not a simple misrep, as it is not seeking to simply twist what is being said, but instead it is a complete fabrication. What you did with #288 was especially noteworthy and could not have come from town. You then further lied in your response, the most noteworthy example being your play on semantics over the phrase "scum or stupid" in which you originally said the opposite as an attempt to strawman.

[Bulbazak]

Fucking lol. Please, tell me why we're even scum in the first place. Your arguments aren't even scumtells.

Trying to deflect attention away from him. Also tries to discredit me, even though I had already caught him deflecting and posting complete fluff.

Useless posting isn't a scummy thing unless it's done repeatedly (and I've only been in this game for a day).

Falling back on the excuse he previously set up. Also, saying that you've been playing for only a game is not a good excuse when the game is still in its infancy.

Informing people about things like activity and potential dissonance isn't a scummy thing either, it's just being fucking informative.

But your post could have been addressed in other ways, as I pointed out. It was essentially a way to look active without being active.

Attacking someone who is easily perceived as anti-town doesn't even say why the fuck we're scum. If someone is perceived as anti-town, you'd vote them, otherwise you won't get anywhere.

Because scum like easy mislynches, and players with playstyles that are perceived as anti-town are easy lynches.

Just because they have a history of looking anti-town doesn't mean they aren't scum.

I believe this is Appeal to Probability.

Your chainsaw defense of B&B is meta-related without any evidence to support your statements.

I had plenty of evidence to support my statement. This is an Argument from Repetition, hoping that if he says that I have nothing enough times, people may actually believe it.

Not to mention that you've tried to discredit us multiple times too....

And then deflecting attention off of him to me. Essentially the equivalent of flinging poo.

[Bulbazak]

Going to try to keep this as short as possible and skip the non-important bits:

>implying this could be anything but purposeful

You did this for

the entire fucking case.

There is

no conceivable way

it could be an accident. And yes,

this was your entire point.

You literally said "Oh, Majiffy had no interactions with Thor on Page 6, HD must be lying!"

The page 6 thing was an honest mistake, but it was in no way the main point there. The main point was the second thing I covered, which I did more in depth, and that was your buddying accusations. Focusing the attention on the page 6 thing, which was incidental, and blowing it up to be the crux of the case is a blatant strawman.

EXCEPT THERE IS EVIDENCE OF HIM BUDDYING

IN THIS VERY THREAD

I addressed everything you quoted. Shouting it loud enough will not make your point true.

And yes, he DID ignore it, that's my point. If Thor didn't find it insulting, why should anyone else think it to be insulting and interfere? There's no real reason to do so!

Thor shrugged it off and asked Rofl to answer his question, much in the same way you'd ignore scummy mud slinging and ask a scum read the same thing. It does not mean that he didn't find it insulting. It just means that he was focusing on scumhunting.

Besides, if I was scum, I'd just kill him when it's opportune like I did last time I played scum against him. And I consider what you said an insult; you disputed his competency with that comment.

*snip*

If both parties of the Flowchart are voting it, you know it's probably scum.

Like seriously, nothing about that quote suggests they are connected except they are both buddying.

But yet you purposefully cut out the middle section of their quote when you presented it. There was no other reason to do that, unless you were implying that both ends of the post were connected and referring to the same thing, which they were not. You used this to build a case, and when I called you out on it, you denied that you were doing it. As I've shown, there is no way that this choice is not purposeful, which makes your statements on it blatant lies.

Argumentum ad nausem doesn't change the fact that you're completely fucking wrong and that

I disproved your point by showing you exactly what Majiffy said

.

You didn't disprove anything. You ignored my original point, which was pointing out how you called Majiffy's explanation inconsistent and incorrect, bolded text from the Cephrir quote to prove it, yet ignored the sentence before the bolded quote, which asked about the 2 reads that Majiffy said the entire exchange was about, thus proving you wrong. You essentially hand picked a couple phrases, twisted them to fit your meaning, and then quoted them for truth (i.e. misrep).

@Fenix:

So what did you learn after catching up? Because voting him without giving reasons or thoughts is quite -

well scummy as hell.

Then you call out Nero for doing the same thing. >.>

Scummy as hell.

Kitty asked Eddie what he had learned, and said that voting someone without reasonings is scummy. She never called Eddie scum.

Oh, well if you can play semantics...so can I.

She said "Because voting him without

giving

reasons or thoughts is quite - well scummy as hell."

Guess what he did? 3 guesses, first 2 don't count.

Saying that an action can be construed as scummy does not mean that the person is scummy. Kitty was explaining that Eddie's action could be seen as scummy, yet she is clearly asking for clarification before deciding if he's a scumread or not. It's not playing semantics. It's reading the game.

Leaning scum

, because

I don't think you're that stupid

.

Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely

stupid and scummy

.
Mmm hmm.

Nice strawman.

I called you scum

, because

I don't believe you to be stupid

. The 2 were never connected.

Misrep Tally: 12

Calls on word semantics to call this a strawman; counting this as 2.

You called the action scummy or stupid. This therefore implies I am scummy or stupid.

You saying that calling it scummy or stupid isn't a connection is fucking ridiculous.

Yes, I originally said that you were either scummy or stupid. You turned that around to be me calling you scummy AND stupid, which was not what I said at all.

I called you out on it, and you say I'm misrepping you, saying you said "scummy or stupid", which is not the case.

I didn't say I said scummy or stupid.

My point was that you're resorting to semantics by saying I said "and" instead of "or" to call me scummy as if I'm making some sort of false connection.

Do I really need to say more? You are contradicting yourself like crazy here.

Also I'd kinda like to know why I'm definitely scum compared to OS when:

According to you, I'm scum because: Useless posting and attacking someone you think is town for meta reasons.
According to you, OS is scum because: Bad knee-jerk reaction to RVS vote, backpedaling, contradicting claims, suspicions on trying to use claim to gain townie status and he hasn't said very much at all.
(Note: I don't exactly support the OS wagon right now (nor do I entirely oppose it), this is just my interpretation of his reasons for suspecting either of us)

Like seriously wtf? If you're going to attack OS for a bad knee-jerk reaction to a vote then I'm pretty much going to do the same for you, only in your case there wasn't even a vote before you started reacting terribly (as evidenced by your P-EDIT).

~Pertayter

Explained why this was bad. Tries to deflect attention off them and onto OS, who they have repeatedly called town.

Misrep Tally: 16

Calls this a deflection of attention to OS when Om

specifically says

he isn't particularly interested in the OS wagon. He's also calling this a deflection when Om is clearly using OS as an example of Bulbazak being hypocritical and NOT as wanting to wagon OS.

You (or your partner in this case) were trying to deflect attention away from your hydra by saying that I have no reason to attack you over OS, who I had already built a case on. This is essentially saying that I should look at the more scummy slot rather than your slot, which I pointed out at the time. It's essentially, "I'm not scummy. They're scummier than I am!".

The italicized (and parts after it) says "Your case on us sucks, why the hell are you voting us over Oversoul, the person you've been pushing on a stronger case?" Which actually makes sense,

considering your case on us sucks.

(Although I personally think OS is a bad example since the case on him is bad too)

So your admitting to him trying to deflect my attention from him to Oversoul?

The bolded says

he's basically attacking you for the same reasons you're attacking OS

. You still haven't even made a note of that, instead focusing on painting the first part as scummy.

Except my vote wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. I thought my vote through before I posted it, as I felt that you were scummier than Oversoul. Just because you repeatedly shout that I have no reason to vote you, does not make your assertion true.

and outright lying.

Misrep Tally: 20

This deserves special mention.

Nowhere in Bulbazak's case does he state that we are outright lying about anything.

This counts as two since he misrepped us AND his own case.[/spoiler]

I never outright stated it, but I did imply it. You completely mangling quotes to get them to say what you wanted is not a simple misrep, as it is not seeking to simply twist what is being said, but instead it is a complete fabrication. What you did with #288 was especially noteworthy and could not have come from town. You then further lied in your response,

the most noteworthy example being your play on semantics over the phrase "scum or stupid" in which you originally said the opposite as an attempt to strawman.

See? You're making up shit as you go.

You'd like town to believe that, wouldn't you?

"#288 cannot come from town" is a complete fabrication because a) you know it can because you're scum and I'm town and b) there isn't anything actually scummy about it!

So you admit there was nothing scummy with #288? Which means that you blatantly misrepped B&B and lied about what they said. Thanks for slipping.

The bolded is hilarious considering YOU ARE THE ONE USING SEMANTICS TO CALL ME SCUM WITH THIS POINT.

No, I've simply been pointing out contradictions in what you said.

He literally just said what you're pointing out isn't scummy, Because it isn't. I'm completely amazed you can even call this a deflection, because this is a solid observation.

I had pointed out several scummy things at this point. All your partner is doing here is just discrediting me. Saying that I'm wrong, without explaining why is essentially useless, and in this instance, is scummy.

Attacking someone who is easily perceived as anti-town doesn't even say why the fuck we're scum. If someone is perceived as anti-town, you'd vote them, otherwise you won't get anywhere.

Because scum like easy mislynches, and players with playstyles that are perceived as anti-town are easy lynches.

Yeah but you haven't even been able to explain your supposed townread on B&TB, so calling it an easy mislynch is ridiculous.

This is fucking white knighting at it's finest folks.

The implied question was why would scum attack someone who "is easily perceived as anti-town". The answer was because it is an easy mislynch, which is what scum like. You can scream "white knight" all you want, but I was asked a question in an attempt to discredit me (which you are trying to do btw), and I answered it. Simple as that.

What?

Words cannot express how bad this statement is. They can't.

Nothing about this appeals to the probability of getting a scum Role PM.

None if it.

It says that, just like everyone else, anti-town playstyle players have a chance of getting scum Role PMs.

This is a horrid misrep.

Just because they have a history of looking anti-town doesn't mean they aren't scum.

Except your partner is implying that B&B

are

scum

because

they have a history of looking anti-town. You are right that it's not Appeal to Probability. I was having a hard time finding the right logical fallacy, and picked the closest one. It's actually a Gambler's Fallacy, as the underlying assumption is that Majiffy is more likely to have a scum role since he tends to look anti-town.

Um, no, yours was the Argumentum Ad Nauseum. We refuted all your misreps, but you kept on screaming "OM IS SCUM B&TB IS TOWN RAWRGH".

Actually, you've done nothing of the sort. You are quick to call something a misrep, but you never take the time to explain why the point is wrong. Your method is one of beating down an argument, instead of actually discussing its flaws and merits.

MAKING AN OBSERVATION ABOUT HOW YOU ARE SCUMMY IS NOT A DEFLECTION

It is if it's in a post about how you're not scummy ("I'm not scummy. You're scummy.").

[Bulbazak]

If you're going to argue the meta point (the fact that people not being familiar with meta being a scumtell anyway is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of btw) then maybe I should give

my

opinion on the meta tells from B&B.
Majiffy is playing just like Majiffy plays. mollie is the one I'm feeling bad about. If you think the slot's all Majiffy, and you're basing your reads off that, you're playing this game all wrong.

First, the meta thing was just something that made me raise my eyebrow and look at your play closer. I would never build a case solely on that. Second, I think Mollie is tempering Majiffy enough to make the hydra readable. Without that, I'd probably have not gotten the strong town read from the slot on d0.

It's kinda funny when you look at Bulb's case and so many of the points are "OMG DEFLECTION SCUM LYNCH NOW PLZ PLZ PLZ."
I seriously couldn't even get halfway through that case because I was laughing too hard. Please, learn the definition of deflection before you use it. Right now you sound like a more aggressive version of my very first scumgame.
/inb4hetriestocallusscumfordiscreditinghim yeah, nice try, you can only cry wolf so many times before no one listens.

~Pertayter

Discrediting future claims of being discredited. Interesting.

Do I really need to say more? You are contradicting yourself like crazy here

You act like contradictions are a scumtell.

Okay, need to sleep and think about things more.

[Bulbazak]

Yes, my Informed Townie claim was a gambit. I do not have any special information about the setup. My extra tid bit of "I have more information" was to further the gambit more until more people had commented on it.

Explain this:

There are at least *2* killing roles in this game.

[Bulbazak]

Yes, my Informed Townie claim was a gambit. I do not have any special information about the setup. My extra tid bit of "I have more information" was to further the gambit more until more people had commented on it.

Explain this:

There are at least *2* killing roles in this game.

He was lying about there being 2 killing roles to make a believable story. The quote you are asking him to explain about is just fluff from the gambit while it was going on during early day 1.

Eddie, let Oversoul and others answer their own questions and defend themselves.

Oversoul, I still want you to answer this.

[Bulbazak]

Tangent, what do you think of Eddie intervening and answering the question for me?

It's very frustrating, as I was asking that question for a specific reason, and him answering the question tainted any results I might obtain. The question was not as "open and shut" as he tried to paint it, and now I'm left to pick up the pieces, as I cannot trust the reaction I have gotten from you. He did the same thing with my question to Cephrir earlier in the game. By doing this, he is giving the other person a pass to either not answer or to copy his answer. It ruins any potential reads I might get. Not sure if I'd call his actions scummy, but it's definitely anti-town at this point.

Regarding your "gambit", why did you choose "roles" specifically?

And for the inevitable Bacde push: I currently have a null read on Nacho, and none of the reasons currently being given for him being scum are legit reasons for voting him.

[Bulbazak]

What Bulba was asking is something I figured he, of ALL people that I know in this game, would pick up on with his reading. I saw the post you made back a couple pages ago coming out about your gambit (the one you just mentioned in this post). Spoon fed him the OBVIOUS answer/conclusion that anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together could figure out if they took the time to read that response you posted.

Because I was looking to see what his reaction would be! I've had a scumread on him since the beginning of the game, and he just came out and told us that he lied, so I asked him about something from his original claim that was incredibly specific. I wanted to see whether he would contradict himself, backpedal, or stick to his guns. Up until you answered, he had been ignoring my question. Your answering for him skewed my results, making them worthless.

That's cute you trying to blame me for something that

was

open and close that anyone else would have come to that conclusion with a simple 2+2 equation.

It was not open and shut. Oversoul pulled a very specific number of killing roles out of his butt, and I wanted to know why he chose that number. Saying, "Well, it was a lie." is too easy of an answer, but it's not the right one. There had to be a reason why he chose that number specifically. I wanted to see by his reaction whether it was because of setup spec or intimate knowledge.

He did the same thing with my question to Cephrir earlier in the game. By doing this, he is giving the other person a pass to either not answer or to copy his answer. It ruins any potential reads I might get. Not sure if I'd call his actions scummy, but it's definitely anti-town at this point.

Translation: He's pointing out things that any town with 2 brain cells in their head can put together if they are paying attention/reading.

I asked Cephrir specifically about his opinion. Again, this would have allowed me to get a read on him. You sabotaged that.

Regarding your "gambit", why did you choose "roles" specifically?

This is an easy one...

Actually, it's not.

Roles

is a very specific word choice. I wanted to find out whether he was talking about factions or actual roles (i.e. SK, vig, etc.). Again, I was looking to see if there was intimate foreknowledge of the setup(in other words, knowledge that he could not have possibly known as town).

"Just tell the lie like it's the truth and it might as well be true."

I have no idea what you're saying here...

P-edit: What the crap is going on with Bacde? That is looking less and less like a town response. Also noticed that Ryu is sheeping him very closely. If Ryu is scum, so is Bacde. I'm not feeling very good about the Nacho wagon right now.

[Bulbazak]

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.

[Bulbazak]

Are you unable to say something original?

[Bulbazak]

I don't like being copied. It doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings. If you're going to agree, do so in your own way.

[Bulbazak]

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.

Him tunneling a null tell is not scummy?

Him refusing to look into the possibility Oversoul is town?

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

None of this is scummy? Because quite frankly it screams him trying to force a lynch on a slot.

But that's not what Bacde said. He said the case was: Nacho is great at mafia. His posts have been lame. Therefore, he is scum.
That's not a case. That's Correlation Implies Causation.

Did Nacho ever say that Oversoul was a null tell? Or is Oversoul just a null tell for you?

[Bulbazak]

Nacho claimed he was gonna lynch Oversoul because on the sole fact, he claimed informed townie and said there were two killing roles in them game.

He said the information was not possible and useless.

It should be quite the opposite, but if the possibility of him thinking this as town and just focusing hard on this is up think again.

He never tried to consider intent or alignment with this, he admitted this when I pressed him on this. He never tried to consider or ask Oversoul past this, he stuff and sat on him all phase. He has not tried to get over it either, he has been sitting on that claim being the scummiest thing on earth and refuses to consider other possibilities here.

Again, he is not trying to hunt scum, he is trying to force a lynch to get a lynch.

That is scum intent.

Okay, now I know you're not reading the game. Nacho never said that the information "was not possible". He said that it could easily be inferred from night actions on d2, and that it was therefore useless and not evidence of Oversoul being an informed townie. I thought the same thing, which was part of why I voted Oversoul, because the claim came at a convenient time, was from a player with a history of backpedaling, and could have easily come from scum who had extra information. Oversoul has since admitted that he lied, and I have questioned him more on the subject, with mixed results (Thanks Eddie...). I need to review Nacho some more to find out if you've completely misrepped him or not, but igmeou.

[Bulbazak]

Just finished Nacho's ISO. Want to handle this first. Others can pitch in if they feel they need to.

He said the information was not possible and useless.

No he didn't.

He never tried to consider intent or alignment with this, he admitted this when I pressed him on this. He never tried to consider or ask Oversoul past this, he stuff and sat on him all phase. He has not tried to get over it either, he has been sitting on that claim being the scummiest thing on earth and refuses to consider other possibilities here.

He called him scum and then explained why.

Again, he is not trying to hunt scum, he is trying to force a lynch to get a lynch.

Are we reading the same game? What do you call the entire Nero thing?

Unvote

Vote Red Ryu

I suspect he's chainsaw defending Oversoul. I'm not liking how he's taking advantage of the current push on Nacho to try to force a lynch based on Oversoul alone, especially since he has shown that he has not read the thread, particularly where Oversoul admitted to lying. He has since ignored anyone who's pointed this out to him. I'm not seeing town motivation here.

[Bulbazak]

when did OS admit to lying?

My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and unfortunately only a handful of players did.

CTD's analysis of the mass claim tell looks very town motivated and the fact that he is moving forward with his scumreads when I figured he would sit by and wait for me to respond or try to further a case against me seems very town. I am happy to call him town in this game.

Yes, my Informed Townie claim was a gambit. I do not have any special information about the setup. My extra tid bit of "I have more information" was to further the gambit more until more people had commented on it.

[Bulbazak]

Ryu, I went over everything in your last post in one form or another in my response. The only part I didn't was the part about where claiming that info could be legitimate. What you are failing to take into account in this case is that scum could easily know that information and use it to claim informed townie as a way to gain towncred. In reality, his claim proves absolutely nothing that we couldn't deduce ourselves. He didn't even have a specific number, instead giving himself an out with "at least". Even I could have made that assertion. At no point did Nacho say that the role Informed Townie couldn't exist. He said that an Informed Townie with only that sort of information couldn't exist. The fact that you've continued to push it as hard as you have, despite the evidence against such a view, is mindboggling to me.

[Bulbazak]

Scum may have an information advantage but they do not know everything town or potentially other factions have. that fact remains Nacho did not have this knowledge at the time that OS was lying so his reactions are still legitimate tells.

Depends on the flavor of scum. A SK could safely say that there were at least 2 killing roles in the game. Mafia could too. Mafia would immediately know whether there were multiple Mafia factions are not. If there was one, they could easily extrapolate that there is likely another killing role in the game based on its size, the amount of people it took to review the game, and what little knowledge they possess of the setup, including PR density. If there are multiple mafia factions, he would know it immediately and be able to use that information. Having this information does not automatically prove the Informed Townie claim.

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

However, each night gives us more information on the bigger picture. After 2-3 nights, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to piece together how many killing factions/roles are out there.

Nacho did infact say he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

Of course he didn't believe the role was legit given the information given. Anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion. It proves nothing.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell, when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

Given the timing of the claim, the complete uselessness of the information given, and Oversoul's history of backpedaling in the game, I'd say that the claim was a very strong scumtell. Again, anyone could have logically came to the same conclusion, meaning it would be meaningless information to hand an Informed Townie. Mastin would be playing a cruel trick on Oversoul if that was the case, and seeing as how this game was reviewed by a variety of people, it makes it even more unlikely.

Why do you refuse to consider that Oversoul is scum?

[Bulbazak]

Why do you refuse to consider that Oversoul is scum?

Your an idiot if you think I never thought this.

Your posts don't indicate that.

Mafia would not figure that info out on D1 off their size when they lack to knowledge of what town has.

Are you implying that scum are stupid and can't extrapolate what is possible based on what they have?

We could try and piece it by D3, but we still could lack info on how kills work, what if they are alternating with opposite scum teams, one gets it on odd night, the other on even nights? What if some of these were town one shots? We don't know this til claims and flip roll around. Off how many people die is not a surefire tell.

True, we might not know the exact setup, but we can certainly figure out if there were at least 2 killing factions/roles.

But he tried to push OS on this as being scummy, there was no reason to consider him scummy for that action,

he deliberately refused to think OS was town doing that lying or telling the truth.

I am no throwing out the possibility OS is scum

That's not what it looks like to me.

I hope any sane town would see just how bad that Ryu wagon is.

this wagon on Red Ryu is bullshit

How is the Ryu wagon bad? Give reasons other than "because it is".

[Bulbazak]

Nice job strawmanning me. Ryu's posts never show any indication whatsoever that he considered Oversoul anything other than town. That's what I was getting at in both of those responses. His push on Nacho is because he's taking advantage of Nacho's wagon to chainsaw defend his buddy Oversoul, making this an extension of his earlier attack of Nacho after the initial Oversoul claim.

Also great job of ignoring all of my previous responses to Ryu, where I explained everything more clearly, in an effort to discredit me. Because that doesn't make you look scummy at all.

[Bulbazak]

Your vision of a "chainsaw defense" is flawed because we haven't seen any flips yet

The same could be said about "white knighting", but players make the argument anyway based on their read on the game. I believe Oversoul is scum. Ryu is attacking Nacho, BECAUSE he's attacking Oversoul. Ryu's recent actions have made me believe he is scum. Therefore, Ryu is chainsaw defending Oversoul.

Also how is me quoting your posts in any way strawmanning?

It was me responding to what you literally said

You looked at my posts without any context and ignored everything that led up to them, where I explained everything clearly, and attacked the weakest parts of the whole, which is the very definition of strawmanning.

[Bulbazak]

OS COULD be scum, but the way nacho is attacking him makes nacho DEFINITELY scum

Explain.

hey bulb

here is a compelling argument for why you should vote nacho

majiffy is actually letting me have my way in this.

he knows that I am pretty good at spotting scum nacho. if nacho is town he knows how to communicate to me in an unmistakable way and he knows that I will fight like hell to keep him from getting lynched.

I like to rely on my own reads of the game. If you believe Nacho to be scum, make a case why.

[Bulbazak]

also I take it you do not know what a meta case is. you don't out other players relative tells cos you will lose them cos then that player can just update their meta. so you are probably not going to get much more than it is a meta read cos there is no way in hell I am outing to nacho what he does that is indicative of his alignment.

I understand thinking that someone is town or scum due to meta, but that is as useful by itself as gut is, good enough to suspect someone as scum and perhaps vote them, but not good enough to base an entire case on and convince other people to vote. I currently have Nacho as a null read, and I'm not going to just blindly jump on a wagon when I have many strong scum reads I can vote for, some of which are pushing the Nacho wagon.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to know why Bulbazak and Sry were okay with voting the same wagon that I was voting, despite thinking that I was scum for my claim.

Because I also believe that Ryu is scum.

[Bulbazak]

Then why didn't you do anything about it? Question him, voice your suspicions, anything other than keep silent? That was something important that may have a lot to do with finding scum, and you did absolutely nothing about it.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak

- Majiffy doesn't buddy? Since when?

I don't believe I've ever seen him buddy in a game. Granted, I might have been reading the wrong games, but from what I've seen, his playstyle is a bit too egocentric to allow for buddying. However, if you could provide evidence that I'm wrong in this, I'll concede the point.

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, what do you think of Red Ryu?

[Bulbazak]

This is scum

town doesn't say "You can't PROVE that I'm scum, so you can't lynch me! nyah nyah nyah!"

this isn't town

this is scum

nacho is better at this game than this and he knows it, and we knows it. Lynch this dude

We need more than Burden of Proficiency and Argument from Repetition.

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

No

and who else would we lynch?

Red Ryu is looking nice this time of year...

[Bulbazak]

Please explain you're town read on Nacho.

Gut.

[Bulbazak]

I seem to be pretty good at reading Bacde most days. He's probably town again.

First I want to say no, you've been faltering love <3

Second I want to say that you read me wrong in this game if you think you can ignore me and not get lynched

Did he just say what I think he said?

Thor you are doing that thing where you read too deeply into my words

You mean play the game?

Its a "nacho is a better player than this" case

Burden of Proficiency.

"I have caught scum doing the same thing nacho is doing" case

Which is what exactly?

"nacho is making scummy comments and ignoring me in a scummy way hidden within all his most recent posts" case

ORLYScum.

Thor I'ma be really satisfied when you flip scum regardless of nacho's alignment

Where did this come from?

What did I do that was scummy?

What did you do that was townie?

Burden of proof lies on you to explain why Thor is scummy, not for Thor to explain why he is being town.

my case on nacho is 1000x stronger than my case on you

1000 multiplied by nothing is still nothing.

@mollie, thor likes to say cheeky stuff as scum right?

What is this? Are you trying to imply that Thor is scummy, yet provide yourself distance from it later ("I was just asking Mollie a question.")?

[Bulbazak]

^^purposely written to make you not want to read it

shallow, and pedantic

lynch this

Seriously? It's not really that long, and he broke them up into several posts for your convenience. If you are having problems reading that, then you have bigger problems than your inability to play mafia well.

Which of your posting is better than mine? Enlighten me.

That's extremely defensive. It betrays a lack of desire to scumhunt or further discussion. What are your thoughts on Nacho's reads, other than yourself?

[Bulbazak]

Don't. It's hard to read.

[Bulbazak]

I mean I'm obviously more in favor of that plan, which is why my vote is still in the same place

I'm just trying to coordinate a lynch

But I feel confident that whoever I want vigged will be vigged

I don't know why you're so eager for a compromise lynch now. There are still 2 weeks left in the day. What would be the point of ending the day early, when 1.) everybody doesn't agree on who is more likely to flip scum AND 2.) we can use the extra time for useful discussion and scumhunting?

ah, finally something I can post about.
Why am I scum, thezmon?

Thanks for telling us that you're scum. Now I know the weak link to watch to find the rest of the team.

[Bulbazak]

He spent most of his time so far going after Bulba, pushing a case mostly based on meta that looked reasonable enough not knowing their past history.

It sounds like you have looked into our past play history. If so, did you gain any insights meta-wise, since he's still a weak read?

[Bulbazak]

The main reason I am hitting a narrow with a few certain players, is due to the fact that it will help me in the long run. It provides me with potential people to start thinking about that are either hitting these players, or are supporting these players so I can watch them and their behavior. The ones I am going after are either

A.) Players of interest to everyone (OS and Fuzzy)
or
B.) Player(s) that have my attention as far as MY interests go when it comes to my reading (Bulba, OS, Fuzzy, B&TB, Bacde, Nacho, Cephrir, etc.)

I'm never a 100% sure, so I want to make sure that I have all of the logic in my head lined up at least 95% of the way so I can cast my vote in the direction of scum (imo) accordingly. So, right now, I'm studying, gathering info, asking questions of certain players/responses so I can get this info and carry it into the following days. Anything else you or the rest of the group would like to ask?

Can you expand on this please? I found it to be a little vague.

@Bulba:

What? How does 1350 post you quoted make Fuzzy scum?

It's not just that post, but the culmination of all of Fuzzy's posts. He's been sheeping all game, and when I questioned him on it, he avoided answering any of my questions. He's posted nothing of substance, even with all of the stuff going on around him. In regards to Thezmon's post, all Fuzzy asked about was why he was listed as scum, even though Thezmon made it apparent that the list was of general reads based on what he had read so far. Fuzzy didn't comment or ask about anything else, except for why he was scum, even though there were more important things happening in the thread at the time. It was overly defensive, imo, and settled my read on Fuzzy from null/scum to scum.

[Bulbazak]

Specify query on what exactly you want explained.

Mainly this:

The ones I am going after are either

A.) Players of interest to everyone (OS and Fuzzy)
or
B.) Player(s) that have my attention as far as MY interests go when it comes to my reading (Bulba, OS, Fuzzy, B&TB, Bacde, Nacho, Cephrir, etc.)

I wasn't quite sure where you were going with it.

[Bulbazak]

AND YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY NACHO MAKES POSTS THAT SCREAM TOWN

I wouldn't say that's the case. I've played with town Nacho, and he still read null until near the end of d1. However, the posts still didn't "scream town", because we even questioned his alignment later in the game. As such, Nacho is normally a null read for me until he does something that allows me to sort him out more. His more recent posts are actually making me lean town.

1422 is probably the best iteration of the case against nacho as of right now

That explains why I don't like the case. It's a lot of crap. The whole thing is either a big case of confirmation bias or a very gutsy scum push. Still trying to make up my mind which.

actually I just reread BS's ISO and nothing really sticks out to me except this post:

Hmm.

I decided to check Nacho's posting history just to see what was happening, and spotted him browsing this forum.

Make of that what you will.

which I can't imagine making if I was town

@bacde

Care to clarify why town shouldnt do that? I dont see a problem with whistle blowing on the lurkers...

Does it look to you like Baby Spice was "whistle blowing" or does it look like Baby Spice was just throwing shit to see what sticks?

This reads as if you think/know that Nacho is town, since that would be the only way that Spice could be throwing crap to see what sticks. I wouldn't think that would be the case if Nacho was scum.

@Mastin

: When's the next vote count? I want to see what the status of the wagon's are.

<<< There were a grand total of two changed votes since the last votecount by this point. So much unchanged. >>>

@Om: What is your Bacde case? I want to see if we're on the same page here.

[Bulbazak]

Which, if you don't mind my asking Bulba, did something change over the course of day 1 where Om was concerned?

More of a change in interactions/relationships. I've been watching Oversoul connections and have been finding Ryu and Bacde increasingly scummy. With Om's recent desire to vote Bacde, I feel that the 2 are not scum partners. At the moment, I'd rather pursue Ryu/Bacde, as they are scummier than Om was.

P-edit: Plus I like that explanation. It reads genuine.

[Bulbazak]

I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

[Bulbazak]

I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Interestinggggg.

What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

[Bulbazak]

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?

[Bulbazak]

In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum

Why couldn't it?

and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus

I've seen scum say this when pushing town before.

[Bulbazak]

I've seen scum say this when pushing town before.

I've seen town say the same thing when pushing scum before

Point being that it's a null tell, and not the town tell that Cephrir says it is.

[Bulbazak]

bulbazak one of these days we are going to agree about a single read in our games

like seriously, one freaking read

I think we do, but the line is not normally drawn on those reads...

[Bulbazak]

So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.

Hello, Fuzzy. Where have you been? Why haven't you been responding to our posts? Are you scum?

[Bulbazak]

WAIT WAIT WAIT

did OS claim that his informed townie fakeclaim was a "reaction test"?

Did you miss that during your incessant tunneling of Nacho?

[Bulbazak]

can nacho still be scum despite OS looking really really bad (like really scummy bad)?

So, you finally notice what's going on, and then you want to try to force it to fit your version of events? This is essentially you putting your fingers in your ears and going "La la la. Not listening. La la la."

I don't even care if Sry is scum, I like her posting style a lot.

Has anyone here played with Bacde sum before? Does he bus?

I've played with Bacde-scum before

sometimes he busses sometimes he doesn't

its not relevant to this game though, I'm town

Hello, WIFOM. How are you?

fuck dude, if we really want to lynch scum maybe we should just quicklynch arcangel9 (who I'm certain is scum)

What was your case on AA9 again? Or was it like your Nacho case? And why quicklynch? Why not try to get the most out of this day and not only catch scum, but make the rest of the game easier on us by giving us more to examine for scum interactions?

Vig should take out one of nacho/OS and we should probably lynch AA9

I don't like the fact that you're trying to direct PR actions.

what do you guys think?

You should already know why I don't like this. You are basically needing town affirmation. You want town to pat you on the head and declare you to be town. I don't see the town motivation here.

how crazy would this be if both nacho/OS were on the same team, that would be crazy

This is just sad...

Also if the vig wants to shoot me that is there choice but I highly recommend against that.

Unlike ideas, WIFOM is not bulletproof.

WAIT WAIT WAIT

did OS claim that his informed townie fakeclaim was a "reaction test"?

WAIT WAIT WAIT...

You mean to tell me, that through your insistent tunnel visioning, you've NOT been paying attention??

^^So your reaction test told you nothing, basically?

That whole post is IIoA except a few tidbits about RR, even though its never really explained if you think he's scummy or townie

fuck dude, if we really want to lynch scum maybe we should just quicklynch arcangel9 (who I'm certain is scum)

because I'm beginning to understand why nacho really didn't like this slot

Vig should take out one of nacho/OS and we should probably lynch AA9

what do you guys think?

how crazy would this be if both nacho/OS were on the same team, that would be crazy

Have you hit China/the other side of the world/the Earth's core YET?!?! Come on, Bacde... I assume can you at least attempt to string together a compliment-able/legit argument to support your claim rather than just tunneling more.

can you at least attempt to string together a complete sentence to support your positions in the game?

oh wait, you have no strong positions in this game, at least none that are memorable to me

its easy to be a critic

This is not a counter argument. Burden of Proof lies on you.

Unvote
Vote Nacho

Unvote

So, Nacho comes in and starts posting up. So, I'll back down for now. Oversoul, catch me up on this post please.

[...]

I haven't given my full reads yet impart because I want to see people's responses to various things.

Fenix, are you scum w/ nacho?

We're at the lashing out stage of the tunneling game are we?

Here's my dillemma:

if I want to 100% KNOW that I'm lynching scum today, then we should lynch AA9

but I seriously doubt that an AA9 lynch will help us find other scum

plus, I'm like 99% sure that I'm dying tonight (if nacho is scum then I'm dead, if nacho isn't scum then I'm dead to frame nacho)

I'm not 100% on nacho, he's a good enough player that I dunno if I could ever be 100%

BUT I AM sure enough about nacho that IF he flips town, I'm willing to be lynched tomorrow

thats like 90-95%

plus a nacho scum flip will help us find other scum, such as Fenix. If nacho is scum then Fenix is pretty obviously scum

A lot of WIFOM. Zero content. I have not seen a convincing case from Bacde at all, just him screaming that Nacho is scum and hoping that people buy into it. This is an Argument from Repetition, pure and simple. Repeating things enough times does not make them true. I'd expect that if you were town, that you'd be trying to win the rest of the town over to your side, but that's not happening. Instead, all you've done is fill the thread with noise. When you are not screaming about Nacho, you are trying to direct night actions or suggesting that we end the day early via quicklynch (With everybody's favorite Red Herring, AA9. Face it, like lurkers, she's an easy lynch for scum to push.). Truth be told, I don't think your posts are genuine, and I therefore believe them to be scum driven and detrimental to the town.

Unvote

Vote Bacde

If you are unsure about the Nacho wagon, or think that he may be town, you either need to say something and get discussion flowing so we can sort this out, or you need to get on this wagon. Gut says that the Nacho wagon is scum driven, and I'd rather try to avoid a mislynch on d1.

[Bulbazak]

Eddie if I answered that question it would defeat the purpose of it.

What question was that exactly?

So Bulba, I can see you're using the logical fallacy book in your argument.

I always identify logical fallacies. Bad arguments need to be identified as such, and scum tend to use them to score mislynches.

Despite his horrendous behavior and scary play style, this perhaps not a type of play a scum would layout this early of a game.

That's what you said about Joel in Amurika Mafia. Sometimes obvious scum play comes from scum.

Taking the rest of AA9's reads with a grain of salt. She may not have the best reads in the world, but her play is transparent. She's probably town.

[Bulbazak]

Although why isn't nacho voting OS anymore?

And why wasn't he explaining why to vote OS to me better?

It's amazing how much you miss when you're stuck in a dark tunnel...

I kinda don't want to lynch you Day 1 because I find Day 1 lynches to be disgraceful and a slap in the face and I don't think you deserve that but I haven't been paying attention enough to really name a probable suspect

Wait, what? When did this start to become more about people's honor and not about lynching scum? Is it only the older players' honor that we have to protect, and if so, does that mean that a less experienced player must be lynched to protect it, regardless of the outcome? Does the lynchee have to commit hari kari if lynched d1? Inquiring minds want to know!

Don't call me kiddo...although the unnecessary condescension might help get you lynched so on second thought, keep patronizing me

If that was a serious reason to lynch someone, half of the player list would be dead.

which actually you are doing mollie. You are doing number 3. Did I mention to you that you're a townread of mine?

Back off Bacde! Three is company, four's a crowd!

[Bulbazak]

Yes, Yes, I know.
Can someone explain to me wtf happened and who got modkilled?

I'll have reads up this weekend. I PROMISE.

Nobody was killed. It was all snark.

I look forward to your amazing insights.

[Bulbazak]

So I had typed a response of things I had noticed up to page 76 and thought I had posted it. Turns out I didn't. I can't remember what it was that I caught, and I don't care to go back to look. It was mostly being snarky to Oversoul-scum and Bacde-scum and also commenting on a scummy move by Desperado.

Moving on...

Still waiting for you to do more than throw random and nonsensical scumtells at me, accept my responses are true, and then bend the answers into still being scumtells.

lol thor attempts to rewrite history itt

what I am saying is town thor makes sense

you are not making sense

and I still say you haven't been reading my posts unless they are addressed to you

HUGE SCUMTELL

Because you are totally not doing what Thor just said...

Also, if I'm honest, I think I just consider Red to be the most likely to be lynched of players I want to lynch. B&tB and Slandaar both seem immune from getting votes for some reason.

oh hai guess who the nks are gonna be!

That point is so stretched that it hurts.

The rest of the Thor/B&B argument was interesting. Mollie's continual flailing, refusing to answer questions, and generally succumbing to Thor's pressure has moved B&B out of the town pile. Still evaluating Thor.

Wow.

Decided to read Bacde in iso, and wow.

After about 50 posts I came to a realization.

There's not a shred of content in there.

A touch of fake content, but nothing real.

It picks up a little but it takes a while to get there. iso#87 (#1202)

That's the one that fixes things though. That has he relevent comments.

[Nacho]

isn't addressing me as though I have a real case because he wants to sweep this under the rug (and he knows I'm serious about this read and he knows that I can build a smurfing bandwagon by myself), yet he is addressing everyone else and their points

From then on Bacde seems to get a bit more serious.

Nacho's spent a lot of the game with a decent vote count. Nacho does appear to be doing what Bacde accuses him of, ignoring Bacde and defending against others. Could be because Bacde is tunneling like he's part of the great escape, and pushing that as a defense is better than actually defending.
ie: It's the other people voting him that Nacho has to worry about because he thinks he can dismiss Bc.

Which means a trip through Nacho's iso tommorow.

With the bolded, you're reading surface level.

How the fuck does the confirmation bias point sound like I know Nacho is town?

Because scum can't have confirmation bias, simply because they

know

who is town. In order to have confirmation bias, you have to be town that doesn't know alignment information, but yet severely suspect someone is scum to the point that anything can be twisted into evidence to support their case, even if it is in fact proving the opposite. This is why you have tunneling townies. They have confirmation bias that X is scum, even when everything else says otherwise. Therefore, in order for Nacho to have confirmation bias, as you claim, he would have to be town. So either your stance has changed regarding his alignment, which you deny, or else you are scum who slipped and revealed alignment knowledge about Nacho, i.e. that he's town.

. <-------Point

Red Ryu ------->.

What the crap?

Back from V/LA, Thor is derping hard.

We need to stop distracting from the Nacho wagon.

BB convince me Thor is scum over dumb, I still remain that he is dumb town.

I'll click my ISO button to see where I left off.

Bacde you still my Bro?

Are you still pushing me because my Oversoul push was too aggressive?

Uh, that point was actually really valid

Are you chainsaw defending Oversoul too?

please be lynched by tomorrow

that quote is thousands of posts old, and doesn't even postulate the premise that you say it does

But yet it's still valid. Ryu has used that as the crux of his case, and has not backed down from it. Ever. Saying that we should ignore it ,because it is an old post is a bad argument and counter-intuitive in a game that relies on past posts to make arguments and scumhunt. In fact, it is counter-intuitive to the very concept of scumhunting, which makes it the scummiest thing that not only you, but anyone else, has said all game.

It doesn't, but the premise of the argument was that there was NO WAY I could know that Oversoul was lying, and I refused to believe that he was either telling the truth (true) or that he was lying town (false, and the reason I kept pushing him regardless was actually explained earlier in the thread).

Premise: There is NO WAY that you could have known that OS was lying

But he tried to push OS on this as being scummy, there was no reason to consider him scummy for that action, he deliberately refused to think OS was town doing that lying or telling the truth.

Please stop interrupting.

Premise: There was no reason to consider the fakeclaim as scummy

They are quite different and I'm surprised you need me to spell this out for you (actually I'm not since you are scum)

Resorting to semantics now, are we?

Cmon Thez,

you and me know very well that "Town" you just don't read someone town bluntly.

How could you say DLG is town, I would understand if you have said if he was null but "Town", No way. There is no support to your read, Just because you didn't find anything scummy about him doesn't make him town, and you know this well. Moreover, He didn't say anything much to give you scum slips. If you're really the town, I want you to take a look at this reasoning to vote me and the timing of his post, there is so much happening in the game at the time of his post but he had just one thing to address, that is me? out of all the other players and on-going wagons? How could i read someone like this as town? please ask yourself again.

"Town" me doesn't read someone town bluntly? How many fucking games have you played where I flipped town? Zero. It's the same issue I had in other games; you THINK you know a meta on me, but you're completely wrong. You base it on the fact that I played scum in a multiball situation, and then played scum again in a single situation. I've yet to flip town to you so... yeah. Nice try, but that's not something you can hold over me.

As for how I would call DLG town, I think that you’re wrong, simple as that. I understand where you’re coming from, but a person does not need to be involved in every facet of the game to be town. To me he looks as if he is actually scumhunting or trying too (at least in the earlier parts of the game, though seems like he starts to get a bit overwhelmed when things pick up). It looks to me like he really thought you reacted bad in the instance and believed you weren’t scumhunting. Like I said before in a different context, you seem to have the typical OMGUS bug I’ve seen out of you. I don’t expect you personally to read him as town based on what I DO know of you, but it’s not like I’m trying to actually push my read down people’s throats. Why the AtE in such an instance?

Cmon thez, seriously?
I didn't even call you scum yet and your getting very defensive about it.

Calling someone "not town" is the same thing. Contradiction and backpedaling noted.

I'm going to post my "lynch list" later tonight, but it might be awhile, as I have a lot of things I need to get done.

[Bulbazak]

The fact is how you pushed him was not something I would see a townie do. You didn't open up to the fact if he was town or not, you stuck to tunneling him as scum and never tried to actually get a read.

Why is pushing a scum read not something town would do? Wouldn't "opening up to the fact that [a strong scum read] was town" in fact weaken said scum read and, in fact, never lead to a lynch on scum ever? And how could he not have a read on Oversoul if he was pushing him as scum?

You need to work on your chainsaw skills.

[Bulbazak]

You deliberately removed the bold from the word again.

@Nacho: I see what you're getting at...

[Bulbazak]

A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

I wouldn't say just Thezmon is opportunistic. I'd throw Cephrir in there as well.

[Bulbazak]

I can't tell with Ceph anymore.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, what do you think of Desp?

I think the argument he tried to start with you about CTD and DLG was bad and not related to the original point (as you said, strawman), and has actually become an Argument from Repetition. That said, the biggest thing against him is his claim that you are suffering from confirmation bias, as that betrays a town read or knowledge. Given his more recent posts, we can rule out a spontaneous town read, which makes this a scum slip. I'm trying to organize my various scum reads at the moment in order to decide what to do (My Bacde vote is not cutting it.), but he's definitely moved out of my null/scum pile.

[Bulbazak]

Do you think he's scum, yes or no?

Yes. He's only recently moved out of my null/scum pile and into the scum pile. I thought I said that.

[Bulbazak]

hey guys lets unvote nacho and lynch desp plz

ok thanks

Where's this Desperado push coming from?

[Bulbazak]

hey guys lets unvote nacho and lynch desp plz

ok thanks

Where's this Desperado push coming from?

I asked him to, Bulb.

I'm not sure I buy that, especially with how hard he was pushing the Nacho wagon. The shift is disconcerting.

[Bulbazak]

Well, you sorta have a point, but you do realize you're the only one voting Bacde right now yes? Put your vote somewhere more useful. Like on Desp!

Actually, I'm getting around to it. In fact, here's the "lynch list" I said I was going to post:

Will Lynch (AKA Scum)

:

Oversoul

: His play has just felt fake. His informed townie claim was a lie, which he later admitted to, and he contradicted himself on the reasons why he claimed. He said he did it for reactions, and then he isn't able to judge any of the reactions? But what really gets me is how often he backpedals. I mean, seriously, go back and read his ISO. It's backpedal central in there.

Red Ryu

: I remember thinking he was scummy during the pregame, but it is his chainsaw defense of Oversoul that really gets me. He was using the Nacho wagon as a convenient way to protect Oversoul. It was an opportunistic vote to protect a partner, and it was scummy.

Bacde

: I have a hard time believing town could tunnel to such an extent as to not have reasons to vote for someone and to ignore the game. I think this is scum who saw weakness and is pushing it as hard as he can to get rid of a potentially powerful player, hoping to be written off as a tunneling townie. His recent desire to disregard any past posts when it comes to scumhunting is not town in the slightest, and his jump on more popular wagons is highly suspicious.

Desperado

: His argument with Nacho was bad, but it was the entire slip regarding Nacho being prey to confirmation bias that tipped him from null/scum to scum.

Might Lynch (AKA Compromise Lynches)

:

Cephrir

: I've been going back and forth on Cephrir. At times I can see where people are coming from, but other times he just seems like a clueless townie to me. He's one of those reads that I'll have to sort through during the night. If it comes down to it, though, this may be a good lynch if we can't agree on somebody scummier (unlikely).

Fuzzybutternut

: I've played with both town and scum Fuzzy, and while I still have difficulty reading him at times, I can say this for certain: This is not town Fuzzy. It's mainly the sheeping and not giving any reads thing. I've never seen town Fuzzy do this, and to compound things, he refuses to answer when I ask him about it. This is not Fuzzy's town play, which makes me believe he is scum.

ArcAngel9

: While I believe AA9 is probably town, her posts are incredibly difficult to read, and she tends not to be useful to town. She has a tendency to attack town while simultaneously defending scum. She's not a player you want to have going too far into the game. She makes a good compromise lynch in the event we can't find scum, and it would help in eliminating noise and a potentially anti-town player from the game.

With all that being said...

Unvote

Vote Desperado

[Bulbazak]

hey guys lets unvote nacho and lynch desp plz

ok thanks

Where's this Desperado push coming from?

I asked him to, Bulb.

I'm not sure I buy that, especially with how hard he was pushing the Nacho wagon. The shift is disconcerting.

lol

bacde is voting nacho--bulb: wtf bacde is scum!

bacde switches and votes desp--bulb: wtf bacde is scum!

bacde exists--bulb: wtf bacde is scum!

ad naseum

That is a blatant misrep, and you know it. It was a simple question. You had pushed Nacho so hard for so long, that the switch to Desperado with no reasoning seemed strange. It looked like an opportunistic jump to me.

[Bulbazak]

@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

Bulbasaur

Bulbazak

: You do this.

Desperado

: His argument with Nacho was bad, but it was the entire slip regarding Nacho being prey to confirmation bias that tipped him from null/scum to scum.

Bulbazak - Slave to his book of logical fallacies, thinks I scumslipped because the way I'm using confirmation bias is different from his

First, finding and identifying logical fallacies are a good way to spot scum, as they tend to use them. Second, in order for someone to be trapped in confirmation bias, that person has to be town, because they have to be blind to actual alignments. Scum are not blind to everyone else's alignment, thus they can never be trapped in confirmation bias. By saying Nacho had a confirmation bias on you, you were calling Nacho town, plain and simple. Either you had reversed your scumread of him, which later posts prove incorrect, or you KNOW him to be town, and thus you scum slipped. Confirmation bias requires that not knowing, which scum are incapable of. It's not "my interpretation", it's the actual definition of the term, and your trying to say otherwise either shows a profound ignorance or desperate scum floundering on your part. I prefer the second explanation.

[Bulbazak]

Please tell me more about how scum can't interpret events in a biased way.

This just tells me that you aren't even reading what I'm saying and are just trying to discredit the argument. The point is that scum don't suffer from confirmation bias, because they KNOW who is not on their team (confirmation bias depends on not knowing). Ergo, they know who is not scum. Therefore, any tunneling they do is driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and not confirmation bias.

that you could sprinkle in some surefire towntells (confirmation bias!) on

What?

[Bulbazak]

No, I'm reading what you are saying, and my response is that it's simplistic. Tunnelling driven by a scum desire for a mislynch and confirmation bias are not mutually exclusive, and it's just weird that you think they are. Are you saying it would be difficult (impossible?) to fake confirmation bias? Because I think it would actually be pretty fucking easy.

You're missing my point. This is about you claiming that Nacho has confirmation bias, instead of just saying that he is scummily tunneling you. Your assertion of this signifies that you either believe Nacho is town, which you deny, or that you KNOW Nacho is town, which would be a scum slip. Nacho, therefore, cannot fake your read of him having confirmation bias, unless you're also claiming that he can also control your mind.

And what do you mean, what? No one is disputing my claim that Nacho is employing confirmation bias in his approach to me. In fact, you are saying I scumslipped by saying that Nacho is steeped in confirmation bias because only town can use it. Ergo, confirmation bias is a surefire towntell. What's confusing?

Again, saying Nacho is suffering from confirmation bias belies your actual read or knowledge of Nacho's alignment, much in the same way as claiming someone is chainsaw defending belies a scum read on that person and the one they are defending. Therefore, it is not a towntell you can fake, as it has to first be interpreted as confirmation bias and not scummy tunneling.

@Bulb: Do you have more than the confirmation bias point? I think that's pretty weak.

How is that weak? Desperado implied knowledge of Nacho being town when he said Nacho was suffering from confirmation bias. Since he has said that he thinks that Nacho is scum, this can only mean that Desperado scum slipped when trying to discredit Nacho's push, and has thereby confirmed Nacho to be town. Ergo, Desperado is scum. How is that hard to understand?

[Bulbazak]

Both town and scum can approach an engagement with a preconceived conclusion and then fit the evidence to their conclusion. Do you all seriously dispute this?

Except scum's objective is to get mislynches, which means they are not going into it with preconceived conclusions, since they already know the other person's alignment and don't have to try to guess it. It is only confirmation bias if that person does not know the other one's alignment and then proceeds to fit evidence to a preconceived conclusion. That's the difference. If you believe someone to be scum, you don't say that they are suffering from confirmation bias, because that would be impossible. The only way you say that is if you believe the person doing the tunneling is town. Therefore, you saying that Nacho is suffering from confirmation bias belies a belief or knowledge that he's town, and the only faction that would have such alignment knowledge would be scum. Appearance has nothing to do with it. This has to do with the way YOU are reading the game, and you have displayed foreknowledge of Nacho's alignment being town, which means you are scum and scumslipped.

[Bulbazak]

You have admitted that this is a matter of word choice, that even though I am

telling you that in my understanding, using confirmation bias and summily tunneling someone are the same thing when everyone must appear town

, I am scum because I said confirmation bias and not scummily tunneling.

But it is word choice crucial in presenting your perception of events and alignments. Instead of saying that Nacho was scum that was tunneling you, you instead said he was succumbing to confirmation bias, which betrays a perception of Nacho as town, which contradicts everything you've said.

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak.

That's the point that I've been trying to make. Saying that someone has succumbed to confirmation bias means that you perceive them as town. That flip from Nacho-scum to Nacho-town is what is scummy. And since Desperado continues to claim Nacho-scum, it shows that the confirmation bias perception of Nacho-town was a slip of alignment knowledge on Desperado's part.

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

Exactly this.

or it means that he doesn't understand the application of the term like I said.

That is assuming that Desperado is ignorant town unwilling to learn about what certain terminology means. However, I believe the opposite. These posts fit with the pattern that he's established of arguing a point into the ground in an attempt to find any little way to discredit the opposing argument. His points in these cases never change, even if they've been disproven. It seems to be a way to turn the argument into pure noise so that town stops paying attention, and in so doing, discredit the argument itself and make it go away. As such, I believe that I've explained my points as well as I can, and I'm going to attempt to move on. If he wants to actually discuss the merits of the case and/or bring up something new concerning the current one, then I will engage, but if he is just going to run the same old points into the ground, I, as well as the town, am better off ignoring him.

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

[Bulbazak]

slaandy I don't think sylacious is new to mafia at all. so I can't follow that thought process

I've seen Syryana do this before. It's a null tell.

Baby Spice's attack of Nacho was bad and horribly stretched and reminded me of Om's attack on me, especially the lie count (compare to Om's misrep count). However, she replaced out due to rage (null tell). Therefore, I think it best to give her replacement a shot. Because of this, I find this post:

Vote: Baby Spice

This wagon I can defiantly get behind though.

opportunistic and scummy.

[Bulbazak]

That is assuming that Desperado is ignorant town unwilling to learn about what certain terminology means. However, I believe the opposite. These posts fit with the pattern that he's established of arguing a point into the ground in an attempt to find any little way to discredit the opposing argument. His points in these cases never change, even if they've been disproven. It seems to be a way to turn the argument into pure noise so that town stops paying attention, and in so doing, discredit the argument itself and make it go away. As such, I believe that I've explained my points as well as I can, and I'm going to attempt to move on. If he wants to actually discuss the merits of the case and/or bring up something new concerning the current one, then I will engage, but if he is just going to run the same old points into the ground, I, as well as the town, am better off ignoring him.

Please support all of these claims with evidence.

I'm mainly referring you your argument with Nacho regarding the CTD point. It is apparent that you are trying to do anything you can do discredit Nacho, especially when you consider: 1.) Nacho never mentioned CTD in his case against you 2.) You brought CTD into the argument. 3.) Nacho never mentioned you "vaguely supporting" massclaim/CTD. 4.) Nacho never found CTD to be town BECAUSE of his DLG case. 5.) You trying to gain towncred via Nacho's townread on CTD and CTD's similar read of DLG is scummy in and of itself and is also CIC.

Essentially, you created an argument that did not exist, and whenever Nacho or somebody else tried to explain it to you, you simply argued all the louder, essentially creating an Argument from Repetition. This quickly just devolved into noise, as before long, nobody really wanted to hear about it anymore.

Yeah I read your 2204. Spice responded to every point you made, up and and including indicting you for the way you posted it. Fortunately for you, as I said, she replaced out right after and you...don't mention her again. So I guess you could also respond to that post of hers, or just hope it goes away which is clearly what you had intended.

Scum post.

[Bulbazak]

3)

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit.

Vaguely supports massclaim

, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Point retracted. I need to stop reading these games so late at night...

However, I would say that I agree with Nacho on this. Simply saying, "I support massclaim for all the reasons CTD said" is not adequate, as you simply sheeped someone else's reasons without providing any of your own, or at least putting those reasons in your own words. Did you support massclaim? Yes. Were you a staunch supporter of it? No.

4)

He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans

The only substantial case CTD has come up with to that point was on DLG, so what else was he talking about here if not that? Why did he lie about it when he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him" and then backtrack later and say that it was "the way CTD pushed his case?"

Nacho is talking about CTD's massclaim idea, and how he used it to scumhunt afterwards.

5) No I'm not. I'm pointing out inconsistencies in Nacho's reads. Inconsistency is a scumtell for me. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree that inconsistency is a scumtell, but Nacho wasn't being inconsistent. If you read his original town-case on CTD, it had to do with CTD's push for massclaim and how he used the information gathered after the fact in order to scumhunt. At no point does he mention CTD's scumread of DLG. That is actually brought up in a different case, the DLG-scum case.

His push on you was not that he disagreed with your scumread, but that you didn't put much effort into reading and responding to the 4 posts that DLG had made during your initial case. Essentially, you wrote them off, and Nacho found that to be scummy.

And really great analysis there. What's scummy about asking Syry to respond to a post that was made in response to something he thinks was the final word on the subject?

Because:

1.) Due to Baby Spice's replacing out, there was no need to respond to it. It would be a waste of time and space, and the town has better things to do than get caught up in that.

2.) BS's response and original attack against Nacho were terribad, and had she not replaced out, even I was going to show why. The attack consisted of mainly calling Nacho a liar as many times as she could in an effort to try to trick town into thinking he's scummy and discredit him. As I said, it reminded me of Om's attack against me. Her actual points were laughable and easily disproven and countered. Trust me, it wouldn't take much to take her points apart like an Oreo.

3.) You were attacking Syryana for attacking Baby Spice (possible chainsaw defending?). And the way you were doing so was a clear misrep of his actions. I essentially saw it as you trying to use broad strokes to paint Syryana as scummy as possible, instead of investigating possible intent.

the confirmation bias point has to mean you think Nacho is town. That's how you solve the apparent contradiction between thezmon's posts. If you insist that you hadn't flipped your read on Nacho, give how convinced those posts seemed, yeah, you're scum.

No. It. Doesn't. Is there any evidence is this thread,

anywhere

, where I say that my scumread on Nacho has gone away? That does not have to do with me saying he is using confirmation bias? No, because it doesn't exist, I don't think that, and you and Bulb and Nacho are using an incredibly narrow definition of confirmation bias, and what it means to say that another player is using it, to tell

me

what

I

meant when I said it, and thus justify voting me because you

don't have any other relevant reasons to do so.

So what you're saying is that Nacho, Cephrir, Thez, B&B, myself, and who knows how many others who have experience in such matters are wrong, and you are right? Do you know how ignorant that makes you sound?

From the Mafiascum wiki: "Confirmation Bias or Tunnel Vision is when a player becomes convinced by their own arguments by virtue of how long or how strong they hold them." Scum cannot be convinced by their own argument, since they already know it to be false. Therefore, the only ones who could would be town. You said that Nacho was suffering from confirmation bias. Ergo, you called Nacho town. How clearer can I make it?

If you don't get it now, you are clearly not trying to, which means you are scum, and any future posts from you refuting this matter should be treated as scum posting.

[Bulbazak]

4)

He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans

The only substantial case CTD has come up with to that point was on DLG, so what else was he talking about here if not that? Why did he lie about it when he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him" and then backtrack later and say that it was "the way CTD pushed his case?"

Nacho is talking about CTD's massclaim idea, and how he used it to scumhunt afterwards.

No he isn't. "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardlass of his massclaiming shenanigans." This is Nacho explicitly referring to CTD's reads that did NOT stem from his massclaim analysis, and the only one that fits that description is his case on DLG.

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

*Buzz* Wrong. Nacho's read on CTD completely centered on his massclaim push. At no point does Nacho mention anything but CTD's use, reactions, and reads from massclaim. When he said "he was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction", he was referring to the massclaim, as is everything else in this paragraph. Basic reading comprehension. Thanks for playing.

He wasn't being inconsistent?!?! I've pointed out multiple times where he was inconsistent, but I'll do it again: when I responded the first time he said "CTD's case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with my townread on him"

Because it didn't.

and later he said "It wasn't just the case, it was the way he was pushing the case."

If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

It wasn't his case on DLG alone. He's pushed DLG in a way that's better than the way you pushed it. Reads are much more than one case. Stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell.

You were trying to draw a connection between your read of DLG and CTD's read of DLG. Of course he said that, because he had to explain why they were different, even though that was not part of his townread on CTD in the first place. The fact is, you tried to make it an issue.

What is this besides inconsistency?

You strawmanning him, and then using his response to misrep him. There is no inconsistency in his statements.

Syry makes an unexplained jump onto the Baby Spice wagon because he was "convinced."

Not unexplained. I thought the reason for the jump was fairly evident. Baby Spice made a scummy argument against Nacho, which Syryana later countered. It doesn't take much to see that and then vote. I was about to do the same thing.

Seanald asked him to elaborate, and he deflected by asking Seanald a question that he had to answer before Syry would reveal what was so convincing.

Seanald's been lurking something fierce and making potshots. He's not contributed to this game at all. It is not uncalled for to add pressure to him by asking for scum reads, which Seanald should have been providing anyway. It would be an easy question on Seanald's part to answer, which means that Syryana was not deflecting.

Eventually Syry does explain why, but Baby Spice refutes all of his points

I wouldn't call that refutation.

calls him scummy for the way he posted it

Which it was not. Syryana uses spoilers and writes in quotes in other games. It's a null tell, and looks more like mudflinging on BS's part more than anything else.

and then replaces out. Syry never brings it up again.

Of course not. Doing so would be a waste of time.

And now I'm scummy for "chainsaw defending" Baby Spice by asking Syry to justify his wagon hop?

You never asked him to justify his hop. You accused him of being scummy for it. There's a difference.

What am I defending the slot from, exactly?

If she's your scumbuddy, a lynch.

Everyone unvoted her after she replaced out.

Not true. Only Syryana unvoted her, and that still wasn't immediate. Her wagon actually increased after she replaced out.

Where did I ever say you guys are

wrong?

Every time you disagreed with us on the point and argued against the definition of the term. Stop backpedaling.

I've maintained from the start that my definition and yours are different

It's not MY definition. It's THE definition. What something is doesn't change, because you want it to. What, do you go outside, see a rabbit and say, "That's not a rabbit. That's a magical plinkle fairy, and you can't tell me I'm wrong, because I'm not using YOUR definition." We might as well throw our dictionaries away then, right?

And your assertion that "scum cannot be convinced by their own argument, since they already know it to be false" when their survival in the game depends on appearing to be town without alignment knowledge is just astounding.

If scum have the memory of a gold fish, then you are absolutely correct.

Thez

just admitted

that he's done what I did as town, and then somehow comes to the conclusion that I must be scum for doing it.

He's admitted to realizing that the person he's arguing with was suffering from confirmation bias. At no point did he say that he was arguing with a scumread, realized they were suffering from confirmation bias (thus making them town), and then continued to call them scum. In fact, he found you scummy for doing just that (which was my entire point).

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, if you're going to play the reading comprehension card, then what does this mean:

"He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans."

"He didn't just push the massclaim and then do nothing else. He actively engaged in the thread and was able to scumhunt and find scumreads and townreads."

It is referring to CTD actively engaging in the thread, instead of just being generally useless after his massclaim push (unlike Oversoul).

[Bulbazak]

(unlike Oversoul).

Hello!

I think Bulb is town his pushes are transparent and have good reasoning.

I call, and he answers. I might try this again later if I need him to magically appear.

[Bulbazak]

I'm getting sick of arguing a point I barely care about though

I'm starting to feel the same way.

If a scum aligned player is pretending to use confirmation bias you wouldn't say that they have confirmation bias you'd say they were faking confirmation bias. Your post implied he actually had it, and don't tell me that's not what you meant because all the words around those two point to the same thing iirc.

Are you seriously suggesting that all I needed to say was "faking confirmation bias" as opposed to "he has confirmation bias" to render this whole argument moot?

It depends on how you're reading the other person. If you read them as scum, then they are faking, or are just tunneling, if you read them as town, then it's real. That's the point. The claim of confirmation bias depends on a third party looking in (town rarely acknowledges it themselves), therefore, you were the one calling it confirmation bias, whose very definition (which, yes, you were arguing against) means the person stuck in it is town.

If a scum aligned player is pretending to use confirmation bias you wouldn't say that they have confirmation bias you'd say they were faking confirmation bias. Your post implied he actually had it, and don't tell me that's not what you meant because all the words around those two point to the same thing iirc.

And now we're back to word choice and telling me what I meant. My scum read on Nacho never wavered, yet you and Bulb and Nacho are trying to say that by saying he exhibits confirmation, I was subconsciously

admitting

that he's town.

Are you seriously suggesting that all I needed to say was "faking confirmation bias" as opposed to "he has confirmation bias" to render this whole argument moot?

is desp somehow misrepping the case on him?

Yes he is. Rather badly, I might add. He's flailing scum, and should be lynched post haste.

[Bulbazak]

Words mean something, Desperado. That's why sometimes it's important to find out why someone said X instead of Y. It's why it is possible to catch scum slipping. What a person said and what that means is just as important a scumhunting tool as examining a player's actions (which, incidentally, we must also interpret in order to catch scum). So, no, I'm not going to look the other way, just because you say to. You made a deliberate word choice which betrayed your actual thoughts and knowledge. I caught you, and no amount of "No. That's not what I said/meant. I'm using a different definition than all of you." is going to stop me from actually looking into the motives of why you would do so. You are telling us to stop delving into the meaning of what you said, which is, in fact, telling us to stop scumhunting and looking at you, which is scummy in and of itself.

[Bulbazak]

Please show me where I have told you to stop delving into the meaning of what I said.

Every time you say that we cannot apply our arguments to you, it is implied that you want us to stop.

Bottomline: I refuse to accept that scum are incapable of conf bias, and if calling Nacho out for using it in his argument against me gets me lynched then so be it.

So you're not going to listen, and any further discussion will fall on deaf ears and will lead to you creating noise. Gotcha. You're either town who refuses to learn (Which I find unlikely.), or you are scum that has trapped himself in a stance and has no other choice but to pound it into the ground.

Question for those who are against massclaiming now.

Would you massclaim if the town decided to?

No.

[Bulbazak]

votes on nacho guys

guys

seriously

guys listen

guys

listen to me seriously

guys

hey guys seriously

hey listen cmon guys

seriously

vote nacho

When did Navi start playing this game?

[Bulbazak]

Nacho said something a while back that is only ever being said if its multiball so lynch him tomorrow if it is otherwise hes town.

What did he say?

[Bulbazak]

Thors day is today

Actually, that was yesterday.

Nothing anyone else will be able to use for their benefit; the way he views Mac/thez is exactly how I have. And yes that makes him town unless its multiball.

When you said that you saw something that made Nacho town unless it was multiball, I was expecting something more substantial, not "Nacho has a similar scumread as me.". That's just weak.

Bulb, you aren't trying to teach me anything, that's the problem. You've never approached this situation from the perspective of "I'm town, Desp might be town, let me teach him why he's wrong and I'm right." You started with the premise that I had scumslipped and attacked me, repeatedly. So if your intent was to show me the error of my ways, you failed...if it was to provoke a reaction from me that you could use to paint me as scummy, then you succeeded.

And the best part is, let's say you had approached it that way...I don't have to agree with you! You are not the arbiter of what things mean. The site meta regarding what it means when someone says confirmation bias vs. scummily tunneling someone is irrelevant when we are only considering this individual case, in which I was 100% transparent by what I meant when I said Nacho was resorting to confirmation bias, and was not unwittingly admitting that I knew he was town.

I am allowed to believe that scum can use confirmation bias (a logical fallacy, which I'm sure you're aware, and thus not a valuable scumhunting tool for a town player that hopes to actually lynch scum) in the process of securing the MLs necessary for them to win. The notion that only town players are capable of exhibiting confirmation bias

baffles me.

With that said, you are allowed to (wrongly) lynch me for thinking that because of whatever experience you have that says that I slipped. When I flip town maybe you'll recalibrate your tells.

The thing with Desperado: I normally want to think the best of players, so when I see someone do something like he did, it's better to think scum than town who refuses to listen, discuss, or learn. I don't get that mindset coming from a town player. It bewilders me. However, Desperado has just started doing something which he has staunchly refused to do when defending himself: scumhunt.

Unvote

Given the recent posts, that was the one thing I needed to see to even consider him remotely being town. I'll have to reread him later, but I'm starting to fear that this will be Metal Overlord all over again...

Going back to my primary scumread.

Vote Oversoul

Let's make this happen.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think of the thez/Ceph echo chamber?

It was strange that they'd argue for the same points, but then slightly disagree when asked. Cephrir, however, did offer some original insights in the discussion, and explained somethings better than I could. Thez really didn't offer anything new to the table. The only reason I'm not more suspicious is because he was doing other things at the time. I probably need to remind myself who he replaced...

Given the recent posts, that was the one thing I needed to see to even consider him remotely being town. I'll have to reread him later, but I'm starting to fear that this will be Metal Overlord all over again...

Link?

Soon.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think of the thez/Ceph echo chamber?

It was strange that they'd argue for the same points, but then slightly disagree when asked. Cephrir, however, did offer some original insights in the discussion, and explained somethings better than I could. Thez really didn't offer anything new to the table. The only reason I'm not more suspicious is because he was doing other things at the time. I probably need to remind myself who he replaced...

I replaced Mac, who did hardly anything. As for Cephrir, I really can't help that Despo seemingly argued just because he wanted to argue with someone. He argued with you, Bulb, and then with Cephrir, and then me. All on the same general topic, but each person had a slightly different stance and argument. I can't help that he's also close minded in such an affair.

You replaced Mac? I think I remember having a weak townread on him. I'll reread later.

[Bulbazak]

If I read correctly, that's L-1. Anybody who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exception.

[Bulbazak]

What if we hit scum?

What if it was a scumhammer?

[Bulbazak]

If I read correctly, that's L-1. Anybody who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exception.

I think there's 10 votes right now, so that would be L-3, but waiting for an official VC is best regardless of our counts.

You may be right. I was using Desperado's post to Cephrir as a guide, but some of those hadn't voted yet. I thought I was vote #10 at the time. I would advise waiting for that vote count as well, since we've lost track.

If I read correctly, that's L-1. Anybody who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exception.

Thread is already 97 pages long. Long game days are bad for the town. AND you're voting for OS so you believe he's scum...but you'd be upset with a hammer?

How are long game days bad for the town? They provide a lot of information that we can use later. Hammering without stating intent is scummy, because it doesn't give that player an opportunity to claim or post final reads. Not quickhammering is in the town's best interest. Doing otherwise is in scum's best interest. Therefore, anyone who quickhammers without stating intent or waiting for a response should be seen as scummy and lynched the following day.

If I read correctly, that's L-1. Anybody who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exception.

Thread is already 97 pages long. Long game days are bad for the town. AND you're voting for OS so you believe he's scum...but you'd be upset with a hammer?

I INTEND TO HAMMER

So last chance to say anything.

Too slow.

Vote: Oversoul

[Bulbazak]

I'm always down to policy lynch derp players like you and OS but I've never ever been willingly ok with mislynching a player.

Does not compute.

[Bulbazak]

I'm always down to policy lynch derp players like you and OS but I've never ever been willingly ok with mislynching a player.

Does not compute.

but this guy is prob scum. policy lynch=//=intentionally try to mislynch a town player. I mean Mollie is dumb as rocks and knows that I defend my town reads but your post looks like scum piling on.

Except that PLs have nothing to do with scumreads. Therefore, by policy lynching, you are risking a mislynch. Which means that by being ok with policy lynches, you are also ok with possibly mislynching said player.

Also, don't give me that scum piling it on thing. I only became aware that B&B had said something similar after I posted it.

[Bulbazak]

Saying "I'd like to policy/utility lynch this slot=//="I have a town read on this slot

I never said that. I said that policy lynching means you don't have a scumread on the slot.

Even if I have a scum read on a player we are still possibly mislynching, so what, you think we should never lynch to avoid possibly mislynching?

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that policy lynching and "being ok with a mislynch" are not as exclusive as you are trying to make them out to be.

[Bulbazak]

@Haylen: Oversoul later admitted to lying about the role. Said it was a gambit. Said he didn't get much from it.

[Bulbazak]

you haven't played in a while, so it wouldn't make sense for you to lurk through the first game you got regardless of alignment

Plus she's replacing the king of lurkers. Lurking would be a death knell.

[Bulbazak]

Her meta change hasn't really been gradual; her town game's been getting more aggressive to compensate for my changing scum style, but her scum game is still the same. She just prefers playing town more; look at players like Empire, Tierce, Tammy. They've had a while to fix their scumgames, but they're still open books to people familiar with their meta.

guys this post is nacho pretty much admitting that he is scum

How is he admitting that he is scum?

Arguing with beyond obvtown Bacde over trivial things.

How is Bacde "beyond obvtown"?

What's thez done to draw your ire, Slaand?

Arguing with beyond obvtown Bacde over trivial things.
Acting helpful
Votes the easiest wagons he possibly could.
He doesn't try to push wagons except ones hes not on.

yes

this is why thezmon is scum

especially the "pretending to be helpful" bit, where its obviously an act to get me to keep on ranting to which he will NEVER change his opinion or even insert his own beyond "I'm not convinced"

So IF that is the current case against Thez, and seeing as how his vote is currently resting on OS, could it be possible that OS is a mislynch waiting to happen? Just a theory/thought.

Do you believe the current case against Thezmon? Or are you just trying to scare town away from an Oversoul lynch?

I don't trust the Oversoul claim. It's just too convenient for the person who has lied about a claim before and has a history of backpedaling. Plus, he's using a "no defense" defense ("You guys should absolutely lynch me") to try to appear town. And then the kicker is his reads list, where he hands town reads out like candy ("And you can be town. And you can be town. And you..."). Not buying it.

I don't "whore" meta

none of my reads are based on meta you (pumpkin pie)

they are entirely based on the way people are playing IN THIS GAME

So this:

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

is not a meta read?

[Bulbazak]

So this:

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

is not a meta read?

no its not

just because I can recognize when nacho is scum and you can't doesn't mean that its a meta read

So you're saying that your case, which relies on the assertion that Nacho is not playing like he usually does as town, is not a meta case? Are you high?

Nacho, Cephrir, thezmon, PV.

Anyone wanna take a bet on how many of them are opportunistic scum?

Out of the people you pointed out (and I bolded to be safe)... 1 or 2.

Which 1 or 2?

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

Translation: "Look at these players that have acted similarly to me. Why aren't they scummy? They should totally be scummy. Give me town cred."

Bacde and Red Ryu, what does each of you think is the single top piece of evidence that Nachomamma8 is scum?

How he approached OS still remains the grimiest thing he has done this game.

Even though he was right, and Oversoul was lying?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb might be scum after all 'cause you know he selectively edited my post and didn't read my explanation.

Who said that I didn't read your explanation? That by itself would have been perfectly acceptable. It's the "Hey look at these guys..." at the end that immediately tripped my scumdar. When I quote something, I want to quote the most important thing, i.e. what I'm referring to. So, no, I wasn't being selective. I was referring to a specific point of your post, which had nothing to do with your explanation. Regardless of the first part of your post, the end was still scummy, and I will hold to that.

[Bulbazak]

So its scummy that I asked Khan why he finds me scummy for something that others are doing? That's scumhunting.

No, that's deflecting. I'm not even sure how you could confuse the 2.

Because not everyone plays this game the same.

I don't really see why that is so hard for people to understand.

I hate this type of excuse, because it can be used to dismiss scummy behavior. This is survival of the fittest, and if you are not scum, then you need to learn from the experience and do better, not excuse it.

Lynching a townread and not even trying to find an alternative? OK.

I called you town? That must have been a mistake.

It was more an honor thing but clearly that means nothing on THE INTRANETSZ

An honor thing? What? Are you only handing out townreads and scumreads based on experience?
Are you even trying to scumhunt?

BatB save your breath. Pray you get nightkilled and move on.

Somebody lynch this...

also khan is sooooo town if he is scum I will be shocked. also I saw star trek earlier and now every time I see his name I hear someone yell "KHAAAAAAAAN!!!!"

I hope you're referring to Wrath of Khan...

What do you think of Bulb and Moz claiming that I'm deflecting away from said question but still answering it? I don't even know how that works.

I never said that you were deflecting

the question

. You can answer a question but still desire attention to be diverted away from you. You essentially said, "Hey, those guys are just as scummy as I am. Look at them."

[Bulbazak]

Bacde made a somewhat decent case for Nacho.

Where? I must have missed it...

Bulba is all over the board for me. I've seen town Bulba fight like hell and not let things so simple slip by him to try and bury someone who he thought was scum. I'm not seeing that same sort of fight/fire from him.

What do you call my exchanges with Om and Desperado?

[Bulbazak]

Need this addressed:

Scumslips don't exist 9 out of 10 times and I think your reaching pretty bad.

How am I reaching? Can you not see the point I have been making? And if so, what is bad about it? Also, how about you join us and give your own thoughts and opinions on what's happening, instead of taking potshots from the sidelines.

I don't like you popping your head in, making a potshot at someone, and then lurking back into the shadows and ignoring anything asked of you. Get in here and scumhunt, or tomorrow I'll lead the crap out of your wagon!

Also Eddie, I've not been completely on my game since Jungle Republic, mostly due to personal reasons, so that might answer your question about any perceived change in play.

Think I might have seen something, but I'd like to wait to hear from Oversoul first.

[Bulbazak]

You changed your outlook on Om later after you went on the offensive on him. Unless something has changed again recently that I missed where your stance is concerned on Om, then I will go back over and check/re-read. Normally, when you have a certain read on someone, you will hound/go like a dog with a bone not letting up at ALL.

A lot of my scumreads have revolved around Oversoul today in one form or another. I felt that Om was likely scum with Oversoul because of the way he was protecting him, added with how bad HD's misreps were. Then they started having scumreads that conflicted with my initial analysis, mainly the scumread on Bacde. I wanted to sort the main tangle out first before focusing back on Om. Now I'm starting to think that they may not have been chainsaw defending Oversoul, but rather white knighting him.

Now, why are you waiting til day 2 to make a case against Seanald? I get we are close to deadline, but if you have a case to bring forward that would lead us to lynching scum, I wouldn't hold it back.

I mainly have a problem with the way that Seanald is staying in the shadows, emerging periodically to throw a potshot at someone before slinking back. That's active lurking, and IMO, he's acting way worse than Fuzzy did this game. Fuzzy was one of those players where you occasionally questioned him, but ignored him until you sorted through your major scumreads or needed a compromise lynch. He was not contributing to the scumhunting effort, but he wasn't adding fuel to the fire either. Seanald, however, is not contributing to the scumhunt, but he is occasionally fanning the flames. Every single time someone wants him to address something, he ignores them. This does not feel town to me, and I'm curious why it hasn't gotten more attention. This far away from deadline, I don't think I could get a wagon going on him, plus I'd rather sort out a more major scumread. I'll be more prepared to tackle him tomorrow, especially since I'll go through his ISO during the night.

So answering the question and telling him why I have such a belief and then asking him why he has such a belief is a deflection? No its not, that's a normal conversation.

It would be normal conversation if you actually did ask him why he held such a belief, instead of trying to steer his attention to other people and off of you.

So, I know that I'm town and instead of telling KK that I'm town and to stop wasting time on me I should have....let him keep wasting his time on me?

There were better ways to handle it than trying to sic him on others.

[Bulbazak]

In post 2726, Nero Cain wrote:So answering the question and telling him why I have such a belief and then asking him why he has such a belief is a deflection? No its not, that's a normal conversation.

It would be normal conversation

if you actually did ask him

why he held such a belief,

instead of trying to steer his attention to other people and off of you

.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well.

Why is this a sin for me but not them?

]

I did you clown.

Underlined part is mine. And you didn't ask him why he held such a belief. You told him to go look at some other "scummy" people.

There were better ways to handle it than trying to sic him on others.

half the point of the game is to point things out that could be scum posting.

Which you weren't doing. You were not saying such and such is scumposting, or even saying that Khan's assertion was scummy. You were instead pointing at other people and saying "They're just as scummy as I am! Question them!" That's not scumhunting. That's deflection.

Why are you against scumhunting?

I'm not. Why are you trying to misrep me and put words in my mouth?

I know that Bcade and Bulb were arguing over the number of the scum and that Bulb posted an insanely high/inflated number (7-8)

Quote it, because I don't remember that at all, and I've looked through my ISO and can't find it. So either it was an incredibly minor point, or you're making it up.

Also want to clear something up, which I didn't realize until an hour ago:

I've not been completely on my game since Jungle Republic

That should be Donner Party. Sorry for any confusion. I have a bad habit of mixing these 2 games up. I blame Syryana.

[Bulbazak]

I am a little bothered that Bulbazak finds me so mindlessly manipulable. Bottom of Post 2728 gives me the impression that he views me as a force that needs harnessing and is trying to protect me from being controlled by you.

At no point did I view you as Nero's attack dog. My point was that he was trying to deflect your attention off of him and onto other people who he claimed had done similar things. Reading it as otherwise is a bit egotistical of you, don't you think?

[Bulbazak]

Bullsmurf.
You're scum.

nope. but I seem to be what scum often thinks as an easy target

Seriously?! How are you an easy target?

[Bulbazak]

Oversoul, are you going to continue to ignore me?

[Bulbazak]

I thought I saw something too, but Oversoul is refusing to engage with me. I'm still fine with the lynch, because if Oversoul is town, he would be utterly useless and end up being dead weight, since he couldn't be NK. Not someone you want going too far into the game.

[Bulbazak]

I even wanted him to respond to me, but he's refused to do so.

[Bulbazak]

Going to try something new:

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D2)

Town

Nachomamma8
Eddie Fenix
Haylen
CrashTextDummy
Kublai Khan

Null/Town

Amethyst Kitty
Thor665

Null

PeregrineV
ThAdmiral
ArcAngel9
Thezmon221

Null/Scum

Cephrir
Desperado
penguin_alien
Ffullisade

Scum

Om the Destroyer
Slandaar
Nero Cain
Bacde
Seanald

Hopefully I can finish sorting through the nulls today, but I wouldn't exactly hold my breath as I'm flying by the seat of my pants. I didn't have the time I'd like to go through ISOs during the night, mainly due to some personal issues. Hopefully, it won't interfere much with my ability to play this game, but I've already had to pull out of some queues and limit myself to just the games I'm playing now. I'll do the best for as long as I can, but be prepared, if things go too far south at home, I'll probably have to replace out (and I hate doing that...).

Also, Red was Blue.

oh snaps this is multiball holy shit townpoints for everyone who called it!

No. In fact, I say we should probably do the opposite, as scum was more likely to know it was multi-ball.

I'm assuming the other mafia is red (since a red/blue dichotomy makes sense)

Nacho is obvredscum who shot red ryu for being a huge supporter of the nacho wagon, but also as an attempt to discredit the wagon by leaving the largest and towniest supporters alive

I bet he was hoping red ryu would flip scum to discredit the wagon

don't let it fool you boys

VOTE: Nacho

Besides this being a gigantic load of WIFOM, this theory is also horribad. Nacho is too good to do something as obvious and stupid as that. Odds are that it is either someone off of the Nacho wagon who wanted to keep suspicion on Nacho, or someone on the wagon who wanted to continue pushing the case for a mislynch.

Who wants to dig around for Red Ryu's partners?

I'm hunting red right now

but a town-team looking for blue scum would be awesome

why?

Because he's probably blue. Although if that's the case, Ryu's sheeping him was an incredibly stupid play. Nevermind, blue Bacde is unlikely because of that. It's probably red Bacde using WIFOM to throw everyone off of his trail.

Vote Bacde

[Bulbazak]

Besides this being a gigantic load of WIFOM, this theory is also horribad. Nacho is too good to do something as obvious and stupid as that. Odds are that it is either someone off of the Nacho wagon who wanted to keep suspicion on Nacho, or someone on the wagon who wanted to continue pushing the case for a mislynch.

if nacho is "too good" to do things then why has he sucked this game?

I've seen him play worse and still be town. Plus, his play mid to late d1 was not only good, but gave me a solid town read. Again, you're going to need better than Burden of Proficiency and WIFOM to convince me that Nacho's scum.

[Bulbazak]

Because he's probably blue. Although if that's the case, Ryu's sheeping him was an incredibly stupid play. Nevermind, blue Bacde is unlikely because of that. It's probably red Bacde using WIFOM to throw everyone off of his trail.

I can't wait til I'm nightkilled and you ahve to reread all my posts and are like

GAH I WAS WRONG WHY CANT I READ THIS BACDE GUY

AtE

[Bulbazak]

I've seen him play worse and still be town. Plus, his play mid to late d1 was not only good, but gave me a solid town read. Again, you're going to need better than Burden of Proficiency and WIFOM to convince me that Nacho's scum.

Besides this being a gigantic load of WIFOM, this theory is also horribad. Nacho is too good to do something as obvious and stupid as that. Odds are that it is either someone off of the Nacho wagon who wanted to keep suspicion on Nacho, or someone on the wagon who wanted to continue pushing the case for a mislynch.

If nacho was bad, he woulda killed me instead of Ryu, the most commonly accepted scummy member of the nacho-push

So you're saying that since Nacho is not noob level of bad, that he must actually be bad

and

scum? Seriously, that's a horrible argument. You're just stretching for the lynch now.

You're going to need better than counter-WIFOM and an argument that you

self-admit is bad

to convince ANYONE to pretend that I am scum

What counter-WIFOM? I haven't used WIFOM in my case against you. I've been pretty clear about why I believe you are scum. And also, let's look at that "self-admitted bad case":

Here is him admitting his case is bad:

Because he's probably blue. Although if that's the case, Ryu's sheeping him was an incredibly stupid play. Nevermind, blue Bacde is unlikely because of that. It's probably red Bacde using WIFOM to throw everyone off of his trail.

Notice that it is not my case about why you are scum. It is my reasoning about why you are not

blue scum

. I've never admitted that my scum case against you was bad. Ever. You're going to have to try to misrep me harder if you want to succeed.

[Bulbazak]

Eddie Fenix: I've played with Eddie before. Not only that, but I've modded several games that he's been in. I've seen enough that I'm able to discern between his scum and his town game. This is his town game.

Kublai Khan: He's genuinely been scumhunting, and he feels very town to me.

Ffullisade: Two things: 1.) The Thor/Mollie interaction from d1. Mollie actually was dodging Thor's questions. It was enough to move them out of the town pile. 2.) Majiffy was the only one who backed Red Ryu up about directing the night actions. Everybody else who commented was against it, iirc, and referred to it as anti-town.

Om the Destroyer: I didn't like their earlier pushes d1. It just didn't feel like town-HD to me. After I made my case against them, they started attacking me hardcore and just claiming everything I said was a misrep, instead of actually arguing the points. This is similar to what Baby Spice did to Nacho at the end of d1. He also white knighted Oversoul big time (I initially thought it was a chainsaw defense, but I began to think otherwise toward the end of the day.).

Also, your questions reminded me of some things that I need to check out. Anymore questions before I dive into the ISOs?

[Bulbazak]

Besides this being a gigantic load of WIFOM, this theory is also horribad.

Nacho is too good to do something as obvious and stupid as that.

Odds are that it is either someone off of the Nacho wagon who wanted to keep suspicion on Nacho, or someone on the wagon who wanted to continue pushing the case for a mislynch.

Obvious counter-WIFOM

Of course that part is WIFOM! But you said that I used WIFOM in the case against you. This is not the case against you. This is why I believe Nacho is not scum. You want to know how I came to that conclusion? Because if I was scum, and I had a wagon on me like the one Nacho had, the last thing I would do would be to shoot one of the major pushers of my wagon. Now I know that Nacho is a better player than I am, and understands what I do. Therefore, there is no way he would have shot Red Ryu as scum. Especially with you trying to shove his wagon down everyone's throat. The same goes to why he wouldn't shoot you as scum. It's too obvious and an overall bad move.

I haven't made the argument that Nacho is bad at this game once, so I guess you're the one who is misrepping?

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Want to run that by me again?

Notice that it is not my case about why you are scum. It is my reasoning about why you are not blue scum. I've never admitted that my scum case against you was bad. Ever. You're going to have to try to misrep me harder if you want to succeed.

If you actually think I am red scum then you must think I am bussing nacho because nacho IS RED SCUM

I never said that Nacho was red scum. I believe he is town. Don't confuse your reads with mine.

[Bulbazak]

Eddie Fenix: I've played with Eddie before. Not only that, but I've modded several games that he's been in. I've seen enough that I'm able to discern between his scum and his town game. This is his town game.

what are the differences between his scum/town game?

I'm interested because I'm heavily reading Eddie as a scumpartner w/ nacho

UGH are you sure he's town?

If he was scum, he'd be using the chaos of the large game to disappear into the woodwork, but he's actually being open, honest, and fully engaging with the game. He's also doing a lot of actual scumhuting, which he wouldn't do if he were scum.

figuring you out is going to be a priority after our first game together.

lol?

I haven't betrayed you once. Ever. I wasn't even betraying you in that first game.

You keep referring to our first game as though I did a bad thing

Sure, 42 ended up being scum but I wouldn't have seen that w/o my top scumread being lynched in that game

and I helped you realize that AP was scum in that game

I'm a good guy man, and my reads are good. Maybe they aren't perfect, but they are good

and nacho isn't sitting right with plenty of people for a reason

You know she's talking about me, right? But thanks for showing us your nervous scum side.

fyi bulb's read on me is as wrong as his read on you

Look. Buddying.

[Bulbazak]

ugh this argument for nacho being town is ALL wifom

and your argument for me being scum is that I'm pushing on nacho

No, the argument for Nacho being

scum

is all WIFOM. And my argument for you being scum is the

way

you're pushing Nacho, not the actual push itself.

P-edit: I moved it to null/scum. I'm still trying to make up my mind about that slot. I'll probably get a much better read from Ffery in the next few pages.

[Bulbazak]

I've been on the Nacho-town train for awhile dude. Don't confuse my reads with yours.

P-edit: Don't use the Relativist Fallacy to defend yourself.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to know what pushes look Genuine because I havn't really paid attention to KK and I think he looked pretty bad towards the end of the day yesterday

~mara

It's the general feel that I've gotten from his play. I haven't been able to hit the ISOs like I'd like.

[Bulbazak]

so just based off of Syr's reads, Desp,Red, and AA9(based on his comment) are switched into the scum pile. and baby spice and bacde join the null to scum pile.
theres more to read based off of syrs reads switching but I honestly can't keep it all in my head.

after isoing Syr I can believe that Red killed syr, but if he did why did his team let him? at that point Red was a pretty good bussing option so why kill a person gunning for his death? unless Syr's reads were just retardedly accurate and the scum team got scared of him.

Actually, you avoided talking about Syryana's later reads. I believe the 2 that he was advocating as scum, besides Ryu and Oversoul, at the end of d1 were Cephrir and Baby Spice/penguin_soldier. I'll have to go back and double check on penguin though, and also I need to remind myself what his stance on Desperado was.

All that being said, what you gave us was pure IIoA. Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

[Bulbazak]

The question remains: What do you think of CTD's claim and its implications?

[Bulbazak]

@Om: What is your personal read of Slaandar?

@CTD: Do you still feel that your point has merit?

[Bulbazak]

How could he block your vig kill, Bacde?

[Bulbazak]

Ffullisade: Two things: 1.) The Thor/Mollie interaction from d1. Mollie actually was dodging Thor's questions. It was enough to move them out of the town pile.

Holy cats! Someone actually noticed!

Of course I noticed. I see a lot more than people give me credit for. I just had other things on my mind then, plus I was still trying to sort you out, so I thought I'd just watch and let things play out.

[Bulbazak]

Did you conclude anything beyond Thor is a Thor read?

You're probably town.

[Bulbazak]

Kitty, who are you referring to in the latter part of your post?

[Bulbazak]

The question remains: What do you think of CTD's claim and its implications?

Didn't you just chastise Seanald for posting IIoA?

It was a decent question. Personally, I'm still going back and forth on it, although it did solidify my CTD read. I think his original point may have merit, especially considering that there are 3 neighborhoods, and I have a scumread on Slaandar. I actually may vote that way in a little bit, but I want to get some things cleared up first.

[Bulbazak]

@Seanald: This still needs to be answered:

Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

Unvote

Bacde, why exactly did you out yourself as vig? That's not exactly the brightest move, and I know that you're smarter than that.

[Bulbazak]

Need more than that, Mollie.

[Bulbazak]

I'm having some computer issues, so I'll be posting from a library for the foreseeable future. I only have 3 hrs. a day here to split between 3 games and whatever other work I have, and only on weekdays. I'll do my best to catch up, but I'll probably be behind for awhile, so don't get mad at me if I haven't answered your question yet, as I'm probably not to that point in the game. With that out of the way, let's begins:

What is wrong with it? Why can't I think they are both scum? it is not his conclusion that is the issue its the way he got there in the first place.

What do you have a problem with? That I did a little meta research into him to try to solidify my read, or that I was unsure about how I felt about him after researching him? And if it's the latter, why is it scummy to place someone as null when you have 2 conflicting pieces of meta information?

that you are not town reading me is bothering me especially since it is based on weird reasoning; it is why I am not reading you as town.

So you're reading him as scum, because he won't read you as town? That is horribad logic and is also called OMGUS.

Don't try to pretend otherwise.

see this is where I wonder if you honestly think I am on the opposite scum team as you cos of the winky face. I am not scum and you will get no cred with our lynch if that is what you are angling for. cos we are town.

This is weird and came out of nowhere. Why would you even think that Thor would get towncred by coming after you, or that even he would think that? Obviously you're playing a different game if you think this makes sense. This feels like some desperate AtE, rather than a point against Thor.

I have a question Bulb. I'm obviously a scum read for you since I "deflected" a question. Yesterday, I had felt that AK laid down a pretty opportunistic vote and she goes all "hey look at Bacde's vote!!!"

Why is my deflect scummy but hers isn't?

Quote please. I don't remember her saying that, and I don't have the time to find it. Also, it's like deflectception with you... Do you think that Kitty's scummy, and you want me to look at her instead? Is that it?

Also, the guy (KK) who asked me the question that I "deflected" doesn't even think I was deflecting. What do you think about that?

Am I supposed to base my scumhunting on what someone else thinks now? That's a sad defense. "Well, he doesn't think so, therefore it's not valid." Let's stick with the actual points, shall we.

Also, there are a lot of other things going on, why are you obsessed with something that is admittedly minor in the grand scheme of this game, instead of paying attention to what is going on now and actively scumhunting?

Maybe I consider Cephir's push on Red Ryu to make him look more town in retrospect?
Maybe I'm curious to get a read on Haylen, a player I've admitted to having not read any of and who replaced into a rather blatant null/lurker slot?
Maybe I just want to start the push on a wagon to see what reactions I get to it.

okay. or *maybe* you are just scum. *maybe* it really is that simple.

So he answers your question, and your go to response is still, "Well, uh, you're scum! How do you feel about that?". That's not an argument. That's desperation.

How was how he reached a conclusion of 'null leaning slight scum' an issue to you? You made a lot of noise on the issue, but I failed to see his scum agenda there.
Clarify?

Well lets start from the beginning of my post shall we;

How is saying someone doesn't have experience playing with some of the more prominent players in the game useful? is it scumhunting? clearly not; so why is it in his thought process?

My first thought upon seeing his join date was that he should be more familiar with Majiffy than what he was letting on. However, unlike Om and HD, I had never heard of Cephrir, which is why I did a little bit of meta research. I found out that he had been out of the game for awhile and tended to lose a lot as town. All of this influenced my reads and kept him from being a straight up scumread. It made me want to observe him for a little while longer and base my reads off of his play. Is there something wrong with that, or are players not allowed to have complicated reads?

Also, I will not be voting until I'm caught up, as I'd really like to avoid accidentally hammering someone, and chances are that my reasons for voting may be outdated by the time I finally do catch up.

Going to finish the page I'm on, and then do this page by page, as that will be easier to manage time-wise.

P-edit: Holy crap! What happened in the meantime to put Thez at L-1? I guess I'll find out in the next 8 pages...

[Bulbazak]

I disagree, where did you do that?

The part where I said he is saying pointless things in an attempt to look like he is putting in effort and scumhunting?

Yes, because doing meta research into a read you're not sure about is so effortless...

I have had enough responding to walls time to cut to the core.

[*]Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players

An observation, but a pointless one; who cares?

OK this is scummy because...

A) He is saying pointless things to look like he is scumhunting and putting in effort

ie he is trying too hard to look town; it reads fake.

Cephrir appears to have been on the site for awhile, yet he is unfamiliar with several of the more prominent players and his play isn't up to par with what I'd expect from someone of his experience. That'd normally land him in the same area of initial suspicion as Om, but I took a look at his wiki, and he has a win:loss ratio of 4:10 as town. That keeps him effectively in the null/scum area for now until I see something more conclusive.

Decided to post the whole thing, since Slaandar conveniently keeps only quoting the very beginning. I believe you can see that I explained everything clearly. Also, if you'd go back to the original post, you'll see that this is in response to Eddie Fenix, who asked me what my thoughts on the game were.

Will be starting page 123.

[Bulbazak]

127-130:

Nacho dies when the time comes...

Okay, I know that AA9 is the queen of horribad posting, but this looks scummy when even compared to her standards.

You said at some point that, you expected me to engage you directly if

I thought I was scum

and I did.

Scumslip.

Shouldn't you have another power?

No, why would I?

Somebody just lynch the obv. scum already. You should have a 2-shot bulletproof power because of Oversoul.

On to page 131

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D3)

Town

CrashTextDummy
Nachomamma8
Kublai Khan
Haylen

Null/Town

Cephrir

Null

PeregrineV

Null/Scum

Desperado
ThAdmiral
Bacde
Amethyst Kitty

Scum

Seanald
Om the Destroyer
penguin_alien
ArcAngel9
Slandaar
Nero Cain
Ffullisade

[Bulbazak]

Was hoping to have this up with my reads, but Mastin opening the thread late left me with only 10 min., as opposed to close to an hour.

I'm having some computer issues, so I'll be posting from a library for the foreseeable future. I only have 3 hrs. a day here to split between 3 games and whatever other work I have, and only on weekdays. I'll do my best to catch up, but I'll probably be behind for awhile, so don't get mad at me if I haven't answered your question yet, as I'm probably not to that point in the game.

I will be honest I think you should replace out

Why? This should only be temporary, lasting no more than maybe a few weeks. Days in this game last a maximum of 3 weeks, and unless I'm going to be NK'd anytime soon, we have months still to play. Why would I want to replace out? Even if I did have to replace out of a majority of my games, and I could only stay in 1, this would be the game. I feel this is THE game to play this year, and that it will be remembered for a long time to come. As such, I want in on it.

Also, am I on to something that you would even suggest that I should replace out on something so minor, especially since I'm not the only one who is V/LA on weekends or have to only post from a library?

So you're reading him as scum, because he won't read you as town? That is horribad logic and is also called OMGUS.

holy crap batman do you know how much of an idiotic post this is. thor OMGUSed us cos I jumped on him first when he was fine with majiffy like 5 million pages ago. how about you don't use terminology that you obviously don't know the definition of.

Did I misread what you typed? Yes or no. Also, dismissing me by insulting my experience is not the way to win townie points.

This is weird and came out of nowhere. Why would you even think that Thor would get towncred by coming after you, or that even he would think that? Obviously you're playing a different game if you think this makes sense. This feels like some desperate AtE, rather than a point against Thor.

this pandering is nauseating and the logic and angle of this refutation is terrible. it is multi-ball and on this site scum have this idea that by lynching the other team they gain town cred jesus christ. there is no "desperate aTe cos I did not aTe you dummy.

Again, are you saying that Thor

would

have gained towncred by coming after you? Because that's what you're impying. Again, the way you attempt to discredit me does not give me warm fuzzies.

will discuss it with fery but I seriously doubt you are town and most likely the one who nked syrlacious since he would be the one least likely to put up with you bullshit.

A little bit of AtE with a bit of mudflinging thrown in for good measure. I'm thinking Thor may have been on to something.

cephrir and khan yes, but bulba should not be a town read of yours his suck-ups are pretty freaking obvious so I read him as scum unless he is just a natural born sycophant which may very well be the case and if it is then he defo should not be in a core group since he will approach the game in a confirmation bias kind of way. but I am going to give him credit and just call him scum

I had a strong townread on the Majiffy head at the beginning of the game, and it bewildered me that HD didn't have a strong townread on him as well and was attacking him for what I felt were stupid reasons. When someone attacks a strong townread for stupid reasons, I defend them. Period. There was no buddying involved, as I'm pretty much an independent thinker. As for the back and forth between us about Majiffy and myself, I was actually just having a bit of fun on your behalf. I'm sorry if you took that as something serious.

I'm now starting to think I may have misread Majiffy. I took his apparent towniness at the beginning of the game as you tempering his anti-town behavior. However, after you blatently dodged Thor (and yes, you were trying to avoid answering him directly), I'm starting to reexamine my original read. To be honest, my scumread on your slot has nothing to do with him, but everything to do with you. And since I have to consider a hydra as one slot, your scummy behavior overwhelms any towntells I think I may have seen from him. And since you've been going out of your way to inhibit discussion on your slot, that reinforces that scum read.

I agree sland, can't stand people that think scum slips exist, or try to create them or insist something is there when it's not. Kinda like neros blatant lie about the hammer that didn't happen, seemed like he was trying o stir shit up.
That clearly wasn't a slip it's just the wording of his sentence.

Kitty called herself scum. What am I misinterpreting?

Also, it's like deflectception with you... Do you think that Kitty's scummy, and you want me to look at her instead? Is that it?

I don't think you know what a deflection is. Asking a player a question to see if their reads are manufactured or genuine is not a deflection. You can't both deflect and answer a question at the same time.

Am I supposed to base my scumhunting on what someone else thinks now? That's a sad defense. "Well, he doesn't think so, therefore it's not valid." Let's stick with the actual points, shall we.

Also, there are a lot of other things going on, why are you obsessed with something that is admittedly minor in the grand scheme of this game, instead of paying attention to what is going on now and actively scumhunting?

KK is a pretty strong town read for you. I would think you might listen to your town reads.

And if think that I haven't been scumhunting this game then you are a moron.

Nero, I also asked you to quote your point about Kitty doing the same thing in the same post. Ergo, I was giving you the opportunity to defend your side of the argument and put me in the hotseat by having to defend mine or concede the point. I was ready to give you the benefit of the doubt, because maybe you had a point. Instead, you blatantly attack me for even suspecting you. By actually quoting and asking me the question from there, you would have shown an eagerness to actually scumhunt and get to the point of this entire conversation, which I imagine is to develop a read on me, but you were more interested in attacking me and defending yourself instead, as if you shouldn't be suspected whatsoever. So, yeah, you're deflecting. You're refusing to actually discuss the point, seeking instead to discredit me. And because of all this, you are a strong scumread.

Moving on to this game day.

[Bulbazak]

Scum
Seanald
Om the Destroyer
penguin_alien
ArcAngel9
Slandaar
Nero Cain
Ffullisade

You realize there's likely only 4 scum left, right? (Not considering 3rd parties here)

And that would be awesome if I magically only had 4 scum reads. Then we could end the game right here and go out for pizza afterwards. Unfortunately, that's not how things work. I'm still trying to figure things out, and these are decently strong scum reads. Now I understand that they're not all scum, and that I might be wrong in other regards, but this is just how my reads stand at the moment. They will most likely change as I gather more information. If it helps, just think of this as my shortlist for finding scum.

And if you are so interested in who I targetted, why didn't you ask Nero who he fake-vigged?

You mean you wanted her to ask someone who was not a vig rather than someone who had actually claimed vig? What kind of crap logic is this? Do you not like the attention being on you, Bacde?

I've noticed a few people asking about the reasons behind my reads. That list will be incoming as soon as I catch up. I'll try to see if I can borrow a laptop tonight, so that I can post it for everybody as soon as possible.

Starting page by page responses starting with 137.

[Bulbazak]

I will just note, however, that the people who got off the thez wagon get townpoints for me. I don't see much point in trying to get off a wagon of a scumbuddy that is almost certainly going down. Therefore fullisade, amethyst and crashtextdummy get points.

Does it still apply to Ffullisade when they expressed agreement with the wagon and even planned to jump back on?

and he couldn't answer with an example until AFTER I asked

Well he definitely couldn't answer you before you asked.

Hey Bulbazak

Remove me from your shortlist I am town you are wasting time considering me as anything else.

Are you afraid?

[Bulbazak]

Town

CrashTextDummy

: His posts d1 were a contributing factor, but it was mostly his neighbor post d2 that cemented him as my strongest town read.

Nachomamma8

: I haven't seen anything in his play that screams scum, and this just feels like town Nacho to me.

Kublai Khan

: His posts contain genuine scumhunting.

Haylen

: I liked her posts d1. They felt very town. I think Cephrir's case against her is crap, as all he really found was a Fuzzy tell, not an actual scumtell.

Null/Town

Cephrir

: His case may be crap, but it felt genuine. He's actually trying to scumhunt. There are still a few concerns, but they're very minor. I'll probably feel better about his slot one way or another after today.

Null

PeregrineV

: I don't have a read on him one way or another. It looks like he's becoming more active, though, so that should change before the end of the day.

Null/Scum

Desperado

: I still have a lingering scumread of him from d1, but nothing else has really happened to reaffirm that initial read. I'm willing to admit that I may have been wrong about him, but I really need to see more from him first.

ThAdmiral

: It was mainly the neighbor post. I agree with CTD and Nacho that it feels like he is revealing his neighborhood for an ulterior motive. It doensn't feel like actual scumhunting. More like he's willing to throw his neighbor under the bus in order for it to appear like he's scumhunting, and therefore gain towncred. Other than that, I really don't have anything else to base a read off of. Recent posts show that he won't be sitting in the null area for long.

Bacde

: His push on Thez shows that he's not blue scum. However, I wasn't sure how to take his vig claim, and I continue not to like his Nacho push. He was also the first one to push us toward thinking of this game as multiball, so I'm not sure how to take that. I'm honestly still working on this read.

Amethyst Kitty

: Gut really. Something feels off about their play, but I just can't put my finger on it.

Scum

Seanald

: Unlike Cephrir, his scumhunting d2 felt fake. It felt more like he was trying to put on a show rather than actually scumhunt, and as such, it was more information than actual analysis. He only actually took a stance on who was scum only after I pushed him. It seems like he is more content to just stir the pot than actually find scum.

Om the Destroyer

: I still have some reservations on this slot from d1. I didn't like how they white knighted Oversoul, or that they tried to avoid discussing my actual points, and instead tried to claim that everything I said was a misrep (Ergo: attempt to discredit the case). They also soft defended Thez on d2.

penguin_alien

: Same as Om. I had similar problems with her predecessor, Baby Spice. She also soft defended Thez, but she was more overt about it than Om was. Gut says partner.

ArcAngel9

: I still don't like the way she phrased #3160. I don't buy her explanation for it either. Her play feels wrong, even for her, and I don't like the way she's attacking me for suspecting her.

Slandaar

: CTD says he's actually scumhunting in the QT, but I'd like to actually see that in the thread. So far he's actually not been contributing much. Most of his time was spent arguing with Thor on trivial stuff, instead of actually searching for scum. It's more of a gut read, but we'll see what happens now that he's not attacking Thor.

Nero Cain

: He's deflecting a lot and not actually engaging in discussion, instead choosing to mainly defend himself above everything else. He's trying to discredit those who suspect him, and he ignores people when they want him to actually expand on his points.

Ffullisade

: Mollie dodged Thor at the end of d1 and throughout d2. She then lied about it. Thor was putting them under a lot of pressure, and I actually think they are responsible for the Thor kill, as they were only 1 of 2 who gained from his death.

Vote Ffullisade

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I want to hear Nero Cain's Haylen/Rena case. Is it more than just "no scumhunting"?

No, not really. I mean this looks like scum lurking to me. + I like what Cephir pulled up.

You mean Fuzzy liking a cute fox picture?

[Bulbazak]

Are you afraid?

How did you know?

Kuribo taught me how to smell fear.

You mean you wanted her to ask someone who was not a vig rather than someone who had actually claimed vig? What kind of crap logic is this? Do you not like the attention being on you, Bacde?

Yes I am afraid of attention

which is why I spammed the thread to force everyone to lynch thezmon

and is why I've been leading a controversial charge against nacho since d1

and is why I've been forcing everyone to address me and respond to my interactions w/ them (except for nacho who will only pretend to address me!)

...

But it's different when someone questions and suspects you, isn't it?

Okay, I want to hear Nero Cain's Haylen/Rena case. Is it more than just "no scumhunting"?

No, not really. I mean this looks like scum lurking to me. + I like what Cephir pulled up.

You mean Fuzzy liking a cute fox picture?

This is an absurd simplification and blatantly ignores the relevant parts of the case

I don't think it is. Your original case on the Haylen slot is that Fuzzy voted Ryu. He later unvoted, because Ryu posted a picture of a cute fox, which Fuzzy gushed over. He later stated that he wasn't going to revote. What you failed to take into account was that all of this happened in the pregame when votes didn't count. Therefore, Fuzzy unvoting and refusing to revote in pregame due to a cute fox gif is not a scumtell, it is in fact a Fuzzy tell and is therefore null (Actually, I might have done the same thing in the same situation. Gut is actually telling me that this makes the slot more likely to be town, as town wouldn't care.).

bulba, do you have any real case on me? except your only reason is that you don't like my posts?

Mostly gut right now. It's a good thing I'm not actually pursuing your lynch, isn't it?

Nero, I also asked you to quote your point about Kitty doing the same thing in the same post. Ergo, I was giving you the opportunity to defend your side of the argument and put me in the hotseat by having to defend mine or concede the point. I was ready to give you the benefit of the doubt, because maybe you had a point. Instead, you blatantly attack me for even suspecting you. By actually quoting and asking me the question from there, you would have shown an eagerness to actually scumhunt and get to the point of this entire conversation, which I imagine is to develop a read on me, but you were more interested in attacking me and defending yourself instead, as if you shouldn't be suspected whatsoever. So, yeah, you're deflecting. You're refusing to actually discuss the point, seeking instead to discredit me. And because of all this, you are a strong scumread.

So you think I'd just make up something that never happened?

I never said that.

lol Just 'cause I'm lazy and don't feel like playing quote mine mafia doesn't mean that I'm refusing to discuss things with you. I think your attack on me is weaksause and I therefore called you on it. I don't know if you are scum attacking me or town. I find it utterly pathetic that you are whining about being called out on a shit case.

To be honest, I don't have the time to sift through the ISOs of a 100+ page game just to find what you may or may not have been talking about. Since you brought it up, the burden of proof lies on you to provide the quote for me to respond to, not to make a comment about it and expect me to do all the work for you. If you think my attack is weak, then you need to actually argue why it's weak and put in the effort to do so, starting with this quote.

Are you the last blue?

Are you seriously going down this road to discredit me now?

On to page 139.

[Bulbazak]

139:

Selfish bastard. >>>

Don't you know it.

Meh Pere might be scum and bulba might be scum too

actually Pere/bulba replace nacho/AA9 nicely on my scumlist

This is sudden. Reasons please.

he linked a post of what questions he wanted answered, I answered them

Quote please.

up for a cephrir wagon as well if anyone wants to get that bitch rollin back up

Do you actually have a case on him, or is this you continuing to sit on the sidelines and keeping your hands from actually getting dirty?

On to page 140.

[Bulbazak]

140-142:

Are you deliberately misremembering to iso me as Haylen?

...no? How would I know that you had all these notes if I didn't ISO Haylen?

Why are you avoiding the question to ask something that should have been obvious?

You say that you remembered to ISO both accounts, yet you somehow miss all of those posts regarding B&B? I call bull crap.

Are you deliberately misremembering to iso me as Haylen?

is this you pretending that you are not Haylen?

because thats the opposite of what you said here:

Hi, HAYLEN here. My account is experiencing major chat issues. Because the lobby was blocking my PM, ISO and preview buttons, now SOMEONE opened a private conversation with me which I can't close and it's blocking my submit button. So until this is sorted, I'm stuck with this account.

With this many players, it we aren't going to miss one townie. Unless that one townie is THE GOLDEN TOWNIE and needs to be around sp we can win the game. Setting up a lynch for the hammer tomorrow is ridiculous when we don't know the facts or the night kills yet.

This is a blatant misrep.

By your accounts Rena unless you are THE GOLDEN TOWNIE we can lynch you because we aren't going to miss you

Wait, is this a lynch on scum or a policy lynch? Your stance on the matter is confusing me.

Also, why are you voting for me?

Following all that up with this is also suspicious.

Cephir. How do you know how many players are in a scumteam?

Where did he say that?

@Bulda: You're missing the point. Of the three posts I quoted, the second is the least relevant. The first and third posts are the important ones (I quoted all three of them mostly because they comprise every time fuzzy ever mentioned Ryu).

But you're ignoring the context in which the posts were made. As such, all 3 are connected. Fuzzy saw a cute fox gif and decided not to vote Ryu because of it. In pregame, that's a null tell, and in fact, it actually makes me lean town on the slot, as I think town would be more likely to unvote due to something like that during the early game. Scum would feel the need to justify it, however, Fuzzy did not.

I'd actually like someone to restate the Rena case. I do not want to see anything to do with Fuzzy in pregame, nor do I want to see anything involving Rena asking for a case. Because as far as I know, that's all anyone has, and it is all crap.

Bulb, you don't have anything to say about Peregrine and Thad claiming that ActionDan and DLG had confirmed themselves as town pre-game?

It would have to be something major to make them so confident that each other are confirmed town. However, I don't think we're going to see it, and since I doubt both of them are scum, I see it as kind of a moot point.

Unvote

Vote Bacde

I think you're scum and that you're vengeful claim is fake. Let's tango.

[Bulbazak]

Reads change. I really don't find it that scummy. Now if you could find somewhere that she contradicted herself on her reads in a short amount of time, I might say you're onto something, but so far, I'm not seeing it.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, this makes sense. Red Ryu was a ninja. We were bound to have either a watcher or a tracker.

@Rena: Did anybody visit Om n1 or Bacde n2?

[Bulbazak]

@Rena: You up for a Bacde wagon?

[Bulbazak]

Btw, whatever happened to penguin? I had them down as a likely blue partner.

[Bulbazak]

Let's bandwagon the badass who got thezmon lynched without a case

This does not give you towncred in potential multiball. Flail harder.

[Bulbazak]

Like half the playerlist had thor as "null" or "suspicious" or "scum", why the BUTT would you be planning on watching him over me? Honestly it would have made a LOT more sense for scum to kill me, since I'm a badass and calling out the scum left and right

Actually, you provide chaos and fill the thread up with noise. Why would scum want to kill you again?

[Bulbazak]

Fine, you can be a BA DA.

[Bulbazak]

Like half the playerlist had thor as "null" or "suspicious" or "scum", why the BUTT would you be planning on watching him over me? Honestly it would have made a LOT more sense for scum to kill me, since I'm a badass and calling out the scum left and right

Actually, you provide chaos and fill the thread up with noise. Why would scum want to kill you again?

Why was my case yesterday that got thezmon lynched "noise" again?

If you notice, NO ONE voted due to my case UNTIL I SPAMMED IT OVER AND OVER, and people STILL ignored it for the longest time

I never said your case against Thezmon was noise, in fact, it was pretty good. However, how you went about it afterwards, as well as a vast majority of your play, has been complete noise. You essentially spam the thread saying very little, and mostly it ends up being the same: LYNCH NACHO!!! LYNCH NACHO!!! LYNCH NACHO!!! Most people have just tuned it out at this point. And if you want to know why your Thezmon case got ignored, that's why. It was essentially the Boy Who Cried Wolf at that point.

he linked a post of what questions he wanted answered, I answered them

If you are going to state that you actually answered the questions, then you need to show where you answered them. Saying you did and not providing the proof is a weak defense. If you refuse to do so, then I have no choice but to consider it another instance of you dodging the question and then lying about it.

Actually, this makes sense. Red Ryu was a ninja. We were bound to have either a watcher or a tracker.

@Rena: Did anybody visit Om n1 or Bacde n2?

didn't she say "nothing of interest happen"?

holy shit

you are role-fishing like a mofo

if you guys let this pass you are all on my list.

I am ready to slap a vote on this but will talk to fery first

nacho if you are town look at this shit. look at it.

When someone claims a PR, the first question should be "What were your results?" As such, it is not scummy for me to ask if anyone visited Rena's 2 targets. Now if someone did, and she thinks that person is a PR, then by all means, she should keep it a secret. I'm not asking for specifics, just the general information that should accompany a PR claim in order to varify it.

Moving on to page 145.

[Bulbazak]

145:

I am talking about when he was blatantly trying to fish out whether someone had a night action or not. kind of like what bulba is doing.

It's not fishing to see if someone has a night action if that person has outright said that they had a night action.

So you think I'd just make up something that never happened?

I never said that.

So if you didn’t think that I was making it it up why asking me for a quote?

Because you asked me about a specific instance. I couldn't remember it, so I wanted you to quote it so that I could properly respond to you.

And I JUST quoted AK’S post since quotes are so goddamn important to you so what’s your response?

Sorry, I didn't realize that was the quote you wanted me to respond to.

@Nero:

4/13 - I don't see it as a huge wagon. You are flipping out over stupid shit. You are trying to sling mud yet you don't call out Bacade for his 5th vote ON Nacho?

The big difference between this quote and what you did is in tone. Kitty's question is more about the standards of the one questioning her, rather than pointing attention towards someone who did something similar. She is also not as offended with the inquiry as you were when Khan asked his question. Finally, in this instance, she is actually being called scum by you, whereas Khan was just asking a simple question and had not made any accusation, which makes your freakout even more suspicious.

And for those who are curious themselves, here is Nero's response to Khan again:

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

On to 146.

[Bulbazak]

Hey bacde, who did you target last night, as vig?

I'm actually not vig, I was trying to draw the nightkill

I'm a reflexive night-vengeful townie

Hey, it's another bullshit fakeclaim. And it's the second fakeclaim to revolve around the ability to kill. Someone is trying to justify being linked to a murder later in the future.

I'm going to ask you this Khan, because I figure you'd know: Is a vengeful townie even a normal role?

What use is a ninja

unless

town has something like a watcher?

Well if Haylen is Redscum... But that was my mistake.

That reply makes no sense. You said you "don't see how a town watcher workins within the setup" not "how a redscum watcher".

OK

ThAd says 'What use is a ninja unless town has something like a watcher'

See how ThAd doesn't think about the possibility of redscum having a watcher or 'something like a watcher'? thats because he is redscum and knows they don't hence I coloured him red.

So, my reply is; if haylen is redscum which shows how town doesn't have to have a watcher for ninja to be useful for blue... but based on what ThAd said this is obviously not correct hence; But that was my mistake.

Tie this with his townpoints instead of nonblue points and its pretty clear at this point.

You still didn't answer the question. You said:

VOTE: Desperado

I would still lynch Rena. I don't see how a town watcher works within the setup when bluescum had a ninja.

So, how does a town watcher not work in a setup with a blue scum ninja? You are completely discounting that possibility. Why?

UGH WE ARE IN A PICKLE YET AGAIN

CAN'T WE ALL JUST AGREE TO LYNCH SOMEBODY

Are you in a hurry to get to night?

THIS FEELS LIKE TOWN BACDE HOW DO I NOT GET THE SAME READ?!

I have no idea what town Bacde looks like.

[Bulbazak]

I have no idea what town Bacde looks like.

what does town nacho feel like?

how is town nacho different than scum nacho?

If you can't adequately answer this question, then your read on nacho is bullshit and you should realize it

Personally, I've never played against scum Nacho. However, Nacho's play in this game is consistent with the other times I've played with him. From my experience, he's a very laid back scumhunter, but he tends to ask some very pressing questions from time to time that helps with the scumhunting, and he tends to notice things that others do not. His train of thought this game also feels genuine, and I do not see anything even remotely scummy concerning his play. As such, I'm going to trust my personal read a lot more than yours in this matter, and your continual harping about why he's so high in MY reads and why YOU are not, just makes me think you are scum even more.

[Bulbazak]

148:

The big difference between this quote and what you did is in tone. Kitty's question is more about the standards of the one questioning her, rather than pointing attention towards someone who did something similar. She is also not as offended with the inquiry as you were when Khan asked his question. Finally, in this instance, she is actually being called scum by you, whereas Khan was just asking a simple question and had not made any accusation, which makes your freakout even more suspicious.

And for those who are curious themselves, here is Nero's response to Khan again:

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

You think there's a difference in our "deflects" 'cause I'm calling her scum?!? But this is still very much incorrect. The Mala head DID have a scum read on me and Mara was even ok with it until recently.

Kitty did the EXACT same thing as me. I called her fourth vote on Nacho (and her "oh I didn't know there was a Nacho wagon") opportunistic. Her questioning me about why I didn't call out Bcade for his 5th vote (despite him already being on the wagon therefore he wasn't the 5th vote) is no different then my questioning KK over why he didn't question others that were setup speculating.

Also, context says that Khan was light calling me scummy.

Again, the difference is that Kitty was asking about YOUR motivations, while you asked Khan why he didn't look elsewhere.

What would you expect from scumcho?

A degree of non-genuine play. He came close in Voided's Mountainous Nightless game, but he was town then.

What about his suspicion of OS read as genuine to you?

OS had made a bull crap fake claim, and Nacho saw through it. I don't see how that is anti-town in the slightest, yet you are continuing to try to push that, in a similar manner as Ryu, btw. Pointing out, pressuring, and voting someone who is lying is not scummy. Period.

I addressed the hypocrisy in #1888. he didn't like my answer in post #1893. he thinks it is a playstyle issue. mebbe it is considering his flip. but I answered him and I simply don't understand why he was not understanding my answer.

Oh, you mean this:

Spoiler: Mollie "answering" questions

I am back to thinking you are scum. why? cos what I said made perfect sense and you know it but are still trying to push a crappy point

Then explain how what I said was hypocritical. Because if what you said made sense then you should be able to do so.

I was asking you to stop that condescending tone with me (you are still patronising but I will deal) and it worked!

that is what that was about. ty

I remember the last time you got dodgy about what you were saying and then went into a 'how dare you personally attack me spiel'

You didn't flip town.

people treat hydras differently a lot of people hate hydras on this site. you either understand this basic concept or you don't

*shrug*

How am I treating you differently?
Again, you're dodging the original point of the question to give a sideways answer.

2. erm that isn't quite what happened

So what did happen?

and I still say you haven't been reading my posts unless they are addressed to you

HUGE SCUMTELL

I've been doing that to a lot of posts this game.
Heck, i still haven't finished my catchup and no one has mentioned it so I'm planning to let that slide too.

I think you are doing the misrepping here and being opportunistic over mine and majiffy's dissonance. majiffy and I argue a lot in mafia we have 2 completely different approaches anybody who has played with us knows this

there is no way you can look at us and not say we are town for bloody obvious reasons but oh hai there are some moar of your posts I wanna address

It's actually quite easy for me to point and you and call you scum.
What are the obvious reasons I'm missing?

Then explain how what I said was hypocritical. Because if what you said made sense then you should be able to do so.

I did. you put a vote on a weak wagon when there were other options in play do you know who does that as a vet player and then tries to berate other players for doing the same it is scum that is who. I was wondering if it was a town tell for you but I guess it isn't

I remember the last time you got dodgy about what you were saying and then went into a 'how dare you personally attack me spiel'

You didn't flip town.

and I remember the last time you tried to use this as a scumtell for me. pretty sure you were culted at that point

How am I treating you differently?
Again, you're dodging the original point of the question to give a sideways answer.

no I am not

So what did happen?

I've been doing that to a lot of posts this game.
Heck, i still haven't finished my catchup and no one has mentioned it so I'm planning to let that slide too.

I mentioned it

I just said it

ahdjkshflwerhjdjsdnisawlqewiz

It's actually quite easy for me to point and you and call you scum.
What are the obvious reasons I'm missing?

no it isn't. it is why you are going about it all clumsily

Probably the reason why he couldn't understand your answer is that you actually never

answered

him. He'd ask you a question and you'd leave him hanging and then later say, "I'm not avoiding your questions.", which is an absolute lie.

The hydra point, especially, is ridiculous. You originally tried to dismiss his initial push by saying that he was just treating you differently,

because

you were a hydra. Thor was confused and asked how that even made sense, which you dodged by going into a big hydra discussion. Seriously, your responses are nonsensical.

posts #2764 and #2786

I answered his questions.

Are you serious? #2764 is Thor saying that you have not addressed his questions at all, and then in #2786 you STILL HAVEN'T answered those questions, instead addressing something more recent and saying that you didn't want to get in a "word war", which Thor pointed out was a lie and contradicted your original story about Majiffy telling you not to get into it with Thor.

thor was not paying attention to the game HE EVEN SAID THIS WHEN HE SAID HE DIDN"T READ 20 PAGES

Thor was not caught up. That does not mean that he wasn't paying attention to the game. In fact, he was very attentive of current events thread-wise. If there was something that was important that happened in the section he was not caught up in, you could have always linked or quoted them, but you chose not to do so.

and let's look at the question you asked rena.

bulb: hi rena, who all visited bc? can anyone confirm?
rena: hi bulb. well I said nothing of interest happened nothing led to a nk but so and so visited them but do you think they might be a town special??????

That is a blatant misrep.

@Rena: Did anybody visit Om n1 or Bacde n2?

I didn't ask who visited her targets. I just asked if anybody did, which can be a simple yes or no answer. She could have easily answered yes and said that she preferred not to out the player's name. I don't need the specifics. I just want to make sure everything lines up.

she would have been outing town specials at that point and if anything her reluctance to do so makes me give her town points but scum claiming to be watcher meta :/

I don't understand that last part. You think she's town for not outing PRs, but yet she's scum for not doing so?

On to page 149.

[Bulbazak]

149-150:

Thezmon I saw as a link to scumcho, since he was the one being THE MOST fency and weird about me voting for nacho. So I strung him up. But he flipped blue--

the only natural conclusion I could make, that continued my train of thought of the thezmon-nacho link, was to assume that nacho is indeed bluescum

.

You ignored the other possibility: That Thezmon was scum who didn't want to get caught on a Nacho-town wagon.

I still find cephrir scummy from the previous day, and he's still playing pretty much the same in this day.

What is the case on Cephrir again? Because if I remember correctly, the only reason you voted Cephrir was because I was pressuring you regarding your Syryana IIA.

As far as ThAd and Slandaar go, Slandaar seems to be trying to make a case for ThAd being red scum on a day where it sounds like consensus is that we want to lynch the potentially last blue scum. Given that you're showing where ThAd could be blue, I don't know why bluescum-Slandaar wouldn't go with that slant on the analysis.

Which leaves me thinking ThAd is a pretty good candidate for getting rid of all the blue scum, and even if it's not that optimal case, he stands a better-than-random chance of being red scum. So either we take a stab at eliminating a scum faction or get a red flip to get a toehold on that team. I didn't want to lynch into the neighbors at this juncture, but he and PV's weird purported interactions in their QT

This seems like quite a leap. Why exactly do you think that ThAd is blue scum?

On to page 151. (Mew! ^_^)

[Bulbazak]

The Mew page:

kill arc unless mastin decides to force replace her out cos the active lurking/prod dodge posts are bs and go against the rules

mastin are you reading this

. I don't think she knows a single thing about what is going on in this game.

With everything that's going on, you're advocating a policy lynch?!

Our slot and penguin would be a better venue to go after than bacde. There is nothing he has done that is even remotely scummy.

Are you saying that your slot is scummy?

> Unvoting without revoting in pre-game RVS.
--- This is strictly a move of appeasement and buddying.

You'll need to explain, because otherwise, I consider much of the pre-game stuff null.

> Post 900: Strong reaction against Red Ryu trying todirect night actions, but never spoke a word against anyone else doing stuff like vig-directing.
--- Fun Fact: Red Ryu flipped scum.

Explain in more detail please.

VOTE: Nachomamma8
I think I've earned enough town-cred in this game to lead the lynch in this situation

How have you earned town cred?

On to page 152.

[Bulbazak]

Right now the case is:

A nacho flip will inform thAd in the most significant way for him to be able to make an effective vig kill

That is not a case. Explain how a Nacho flip would be the most informative for ThAd.

.....................

my point is that there's no reason at all to suspect me other than the fact that I suspect both of you so it looks like nothing more than OMGUS. wHY DO YOU SUSPECT ME bACDE?

Getting super defensive Nero? Yeah, there's no way you're scum...

I'm pretty sure everyone has an interest in removing that nightkill from the game.

Yes but only redscum has an interest in prioritizing another lynch over AK solely because they probably aren't bluescum.

If we are assuming that this is multiball, then it is in town's best interest to eliminate a NK. Why would you not want to do so? And why would it be more important to eliminate Kitty rather than a NK?

exactly why my vote is still on cephrir, too much fascination with blue team.

This is the first I've heard of it. It's almost like you're changing your justification in order to score an easy mislynch.

Again, the difference is that Kitty was asking about YOUR motivations, while you asked Khan why he didn't look elsewhere

.......................................................





there is no fucking difference!!!

Saying "Nuh Uh!!!" is not a rebuttal.

P-Edit: Desperado makes a good point on the cop case. Was that your point as well Khan?

Also, I get goaded into voting as town all the time.

Unvote

Vote Amethyst Kitty

[Bulbazak]

If we are assuming that this is multiball, then it is in town's best interest to eliminate a NK. Why would you not want to do so? And why would it be more important to eliminate Kitty rather than a NK?

But it is not in the town's best interest to derail a lynch because solely because they probably aren't bluescum. Which is what Cephrir said.

Please show me where I a) said I don't want to eliminate a NK, and b) said it would be more important to eliminate Kitty over eliminating a NK.

You may not have said so, but it seemed to be implied. Besides, if I was trying to get rid of a NK, and I was attacked for my vote, I'd be questioning town's priorities as well.

Put another way: your questions would make sense if there was compelling evidence that someone else was bluescum and I was arguing for Kitty over them. Then it might make sense to ask me why I don't want to eliminate a NK.

But there isn't, so it doesn't.

Fair enough.

Bulb was approaching the issue as if we had confirmed bluescum in our grasp and I was arguing for Kitty over them, which ignores a lot of the context.

There's not anybody at this point that I would say is "confirmed bluescum". I have a slight gut read on a player that I think may be the last blue scum, but there really isn't anything else too substantial to go with it. Right now I'm happy just going after my stronger scumreads.

It was the same question. I asked KK why he wasn't looking at the others (note one of those others flipped scum) AK asked my why I wasn't looking at Bacde. It was the same thing and you pretending like it wasn't is massively stupid. This is scum with Nacho.

Let's look at them side by side:

In post 2401, Nero Cain wrote:its also likely multiball

How in the world can town make this assumption on Day 1?

Its a 24 player game an current site meta suggest more than 1 killing faction. 6 scum seems the ideal number, weather its a 5 man scum team and a sk or two 3 man scum teams.

But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?

It's all about the wording with your post. You are not asking about Khan's criteria for questioning you. You are instead asking him why he's not questioning 3 other players. Look at how you phrase it: "Why is this a sin for me but not them?", with "sin" being the key word. You are hereby implying that Slaandar, Bacde, and myself should also be considered scummy and that Khan should look at us. You then follow this up with "Why am I not on your town list?", AKA "Why do you not think I am town? I should have town points from you, especially given the scummy people I just handed to you.". Compare this to Kitty's post, who you also diverted attention to in a like manner:

@Nero:

4/13 - I don't see it as a huge wagon. You are flipping out over stupid shit. You are trying to sling mud yet you don't call out Bacade for his 5th vote ON Nacho?

Her focus is not on being proved townie, it is about you and your criteria. When she asks about Bacde, she is not trying to divert attention to him. Instead, she is asking about your criteria for your scumtell, which seems to be opportunistic. You are the focus of that last sentence, not Bacde, whereas Khan was not the subject of your post. Also, your entire post was on that one subject, whereas this question to you made up only a small part of Kitty's post. Here's the rest:

OS, I'm planning to browse through games of Nacho to see if he does these summary things more often as scum or town. I thought my little post would have gotten more attention when I said it, but it didn't so it through off alarm bells.

@Syr:

I got a question for you. You say this "Def lynching AA too #239 and #246 AND #252, I'm not reading her posts anymore"
Although, you have her listed as 'null' why is that? Also never say I want to lynch blank and blank, but I'm going to not read her posts. You are in confirmation bias area and I don't like it.

FoS for that.

@Bacade:

Hush about your confirmed town nonsense. You aren't confirmed town. If you want people to read you as town then play like it.

@HD:

Buddy Nero moar please.

@Bacade:

I want them to explain their weak scum read on us. Do you have a problem with me wanting that?

@HD/OM:

Just because it's not mentioned in the thread doesn't mean it's there and I have it for several reasons, but there are some I can't even discuss currently.

@Angel:

Syr actually did somewhat try to contribute. I'm surprised you didn't catch that.

(Side note: I do believe Nacho is scum. My gut was pinging, but I needed to wait for Mara to discuss it with her)

I was in this game that Slandaar is talking about in this post.
(Only problem I currently have with this post of Slandaar is that - he's possibly going to let someone who could be potentially slide with the argument why would he do this? Which boils down to the argument: "obv scum being too obv."
He's being wishywashy and I don't actually like that coming from Slandaar.

@Nero/Mollie: Both of you be nice to each other. Be civil.

So Mollie is having issues with me abandoning her.

@HD/OM:

I don't see how Bulba misrepped me.

#428 is an inside joke. Not many people will get it, but I tease Mollie a lot when I'm drunk. Plain and simple - it wasn't indicative of an alignment. Plus I'm reading Mollie/Jiffy as town and that's written in other posts of mine.

Now you are misrepping us in post 730.
It's mainly due to this "My other point was that you were going for the whole "Oh we're waiting for the other head's consent to vote" but then you voted with what seemed to be a lack of consent from Mala. This is a disconnect."

I showed exactly why I was waiting before casting a vote. You asked me that and I answered. Mara and I want to play as a team and not two indi heads moving our vote around.

Please read this post of mine.
It was clearly obvious we both were on skype and we both were in the thread. How is that a lack of consent from me?

@Nero:

4/13 - I don't see it as a huge wagon. You are flipping out over stupid shit. You are trying to sling mud yet you don't call out Bacade for his 5th vote ON Nacho?

@Fuzzy:

Other than sheeping. Please read and please contribute.

(LOLOL. Mara took the words right out of my mouth.)

(I'm also wanting to bash my head into a wall seeing all these "Shut up and lynch so and so." or "Moar votes on so and so." Stop shoving it down the throats. Make a clear chorent case or stop tunneling and look fucking elsewhere.)

*sigh*

Starting to warm up to the idea Bulb/OM/HD is a T v T argument.

@RedRyu:

Thoughts on other happenings? You are starting to making me question my vote on Nacho. You are sitting back and allowing Bulb/OM/HD to tear each other apart along with other conversations with other players - yet you aren't making an effort to actually comment on shit.

(Mollie has a point about Nero's post)

@HD/OM:

Just because I question someone doesn't mean I think they are scum. I could be wanting people to flesh out their answers or prior reads.

@CTD:

Are you seriously basing your scum/town reads based off of reactions to your massclaiming suggestion?
Also can you walk me through your process on "reacting passionately" is?
I believe I reacted passionately to it, but hey to each their own.


~Mala

The question we've been discussing is bolded. She's clearly not sweating your attack on her, and given the context, this confirms her question being about your criteria, instead of diverting attention elsewhere. In fact, this post shows that she is clearly scumhunting. It reminds me why I was townreading her early in the game.

Unvote

tl;dr

pretty sure the post is filled with nothing but the same sycophantic pretentious doubaggery stuff as has been previously posted by this poster

So you ask me to clarify and then ignore and dismiss me when I do. Yeah, you're totally not dodging the issues.

I might be ok with an AK lynch, but if AK flips scum we are deff killing Bulb.

This should be interesting. Do explain.

On to page 155.

[Bulbazak]

155-157:

I don't like how ThAdmiral is just threatening everybody who questions him. I'm having a harder time accepting the vig claim because of it, especially since I don't think a vig. would be acting like this. It almost seems like cocky scum. Even if he is town, do we really want to hand a kill to someone this unstable? I mean he's already threatened to kill 2 top town reads simply because they looked at him the wrong way!

I also find it strange that he pins CTD as super-obvious town, but

he doesn't give Bacde the exact same extension even though he's done a shit-load for town with his "anti-town" play.

How can you help town with "anti-town play"?

but, instead of furthering your case on us, you drop us and go after the person who actually lynched scum...

Again, it seems as if you're insinuating that you should be seen as scummy here. Also, if this is multi-ball, why should we simply give someone town-cred, because they lynched scum, especially someone you have admitted has been playing anti-town?

I have

You, Nacho, Bacde, Nero, Slandaar, CTD, Bulb as town

Desp, Angel, Rena, as weaker town

Khan and Ceph as scum, though Ceph may be out of date

PV as maybe scum

and the rest as Null, mostly due to the fact that there is nothing there that catches my attention.

~Mara

No, never mind. Peregrine is town

These reads feel lazy.

Not sure about Amethyst
but why not Despo or Cepheir?

What are your cases on them?

On to page 158.

[Bulbazak]

If Bacde was independently scummy there would be nothing preventing him from being redscum. He just isn't. And being wrong is not a scumtell in and of itself.

Can you explain this?

Mala's tantrum and the followup by Mara feel very town to me, which is the first time since d1 that they have been townreading so strongly. I'm not sure I buy their Khan case, but I'd like to see how this plays out first. Going to go with the vote I had originally before I was convinced by Desperado to join the wagon.

Vote Nero Cain

This is a good wagon.

P-edit: They just felt thrown together at the last minute. You were also not up to date on Cephrir or PV, which showed in how you couldn't give a coherent read on them. I also found it strange that you would have so many nulls at this point in the game. This shows that you're clearly not reading the game as closely as you should.

[Bulbazak]

UNVOTE: ceph

VOTE: AK

yeah sorry I just can't stand cry babies.

I mean I get the feeling that what your doing now is very frustrated town flailing but, your just too annoying for me right now, if you can calm down and start doing things logically I'll probably take this vote off.

Can't believe that I forgot to address this yesterday, especially since I reacted to it so negatively. Anybody who knows me should understand why I hate this. I don't care for policy lynches, especially when there's so much more to talk about. It's a lazy way to push a lynch and avoid any responsibility later.

What do you think of my point on town-Nero?

I'm unsure what you're saying. Is it that Nero is always anti-town, yet he always goes after the most anti-town player?

@Everyone else:

I didn't realize that we only had two blue mafia flips. Now it can be multiball, but is it possible it's just scum team vs. Sk vs. Town rather then S v S v T?

I keep going back and forth on this. The blue scum team would suggest 2 teams, yet it is still unproven until another team flips. Currently I'm willing to lynch somebody that could be the last blue, provided the case is strong enough, in an effort to get rid of a NK, but until then, I'm just looking for scum in general.

CTD, Nacho, Bulb: forget about Nero for right now and let's get this Thad wagon going so that the people voting Nacho have to get off him and choose between AK and Thad.

I'm currently unsure how I feel about a ThAd lynch, and I disagree with the AK wagon, therefore I think that pursuing Nero is the best use of my vote.

I'm stunned that someone can completely dodge a case; hell, not even appear to read it.

Hence my frustration with Ffullisade. What do you think about that case?

I don't like how ThAdmiral is just threatening everybody who questions him. I'm having a harder time accepting the vig claim because of it, especially since I don't think a vig. would be acting like this. It almost seems like cocky scum. Even if he is town, do we really want to hand a kill to someone this unstable? I mean he's already threatened to kill 2 top town reads simply because they looked at him the wrong way!

I'm acting. Like someone. Who doesn't. Give a shit.
Whether you think that is scum or town is up to you.

I'm currently trying to decide whether it is worth it to keep you alive even if you are town. If you are town, you seem to be too unstable for a vig and would therefore do more harm to the town than good. However, that would mean that your lynch would be more of a PL, which I also tend to dislike. I'm currently trying to decide if lynching you would be better for the town, regardless of your alignment, and if there is a better option available.

night 1 I'd only recently joined and didn't feel like I had a good bearing on the game.
night 2 I was tempted but decided to save my shots for when I had better leads. I figured my shots would become potentially more powerful the later the game goes, and I didn't have any strong scum reads anyway.

This, however, makes sense to me and seems to corroborate your claim.

[Bulbazak]

I think you are red scum and there is someone on your team who is coaching you

Are you suggesting that the red scum team has day talk?

I actually like Desperado's case. It seemed to come out of nowhere, though. Might I ask what prompted it?

These are the tells you keep brining up against us:

•being calm
•aTe

How do those 2 work together to justify a scum case anyway?

UNVOTE: AK

the vote wasn't personal AK, i just have a self-made zero tolerance rule for people freaking out, its just unnecessary, but you've explained your self well and back in mah town reads.

Desp I understand your case on me, but I honestly thinking your reaching for connections, you could probably go through the whole player list and do exactly what you did on me to everyone else, or even make the arguement that those without any interactions with bluescum what so ever are most likely blue scum, its all just not very concrete.

I was also surprised to see this case just randomly pop up from you, after you were saying I was likely town. maybe saying that spurred you to Iso me and take a second look which I can see, but considering your my neighbor I'd rather us work together on things,

so what questions do you want answered from me? or how can we work this out together because your a pretty concrete town read for me and I don't want to see the extra communication we get go to waste, even though we've probably been wasting it up to this point lol.

Town pacification

and

buddying.

killing at night:
crashtextdummy

Why?

I think it's very possible.

She could also be lying, though the no result on Bacde would be incredibly ballsy.

Seeing as how there was a ninja on the blue team, there is no way that Rena is blue scum. Get off of your confirmation bias and look somewhere else.

And the SK theory is probably assuming ThAd is said SK, and he just isn't.

Why not?

Unvote

Vote Seanald

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to be given a day or two to post my full thoughts on the game before we go to night.

I'm willing to do that.

Unvote

[Bulbazak]

Unvote: Seanald

I'm also trying to figure out what it means that Seanald got to L-2 without any of ffullisade, CTD, bacde, Nacho, or Khan joining the wagon.

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this post.

[Bulbazak]

@Thad

:Are you able to not shoot CTD tonight if that's the condition for you not being lynched today? If it comes down to it, running Thad up until he agrees to this would probably be worth it. Everyone else, don't end the day until this has been discussed.

What would stop me from saying I won't shoot him, and then shooting him anyway?

You are a claimed power role, which means you should be more subservient to the whims and needs of the town than if you had not claimed. If you refuse to act pro-town in this way, what good are you?

[Bulbazak]

if you really need me to, I can go post by post and pick out what it is exactly what I'm using as a base for my town read on him, but I'd prefer not to >.>

That might help, because I'm really not seeing Nero-town.

hrmmmm...hrmmm...I'm trying to decide if this is scum or "too stupid to be scum"

I like how you try to discredit me before addressing my points.

Lets talk about context here. When AK questioned me as to why I suspect them but not Bacde, his vote wasn't even the fifth vote? Why do you think its townish of her to deflect to a vote that wasn't actually there?

I'm not going to speculate on another player's motivation via vote counts, especially given Bacde's erratic history with his vote on the Nacho wagon.

The fact that AK has a good chance of getting lynched today and you are defending her so so so hard is making alarm bells ring.

You were the one that asked me about AK's post from d1. I didn't find it scummy at the time, and I still don't now. I had actually come around to the opinion that AK was probably scum when you pointed me back to that post, which happened to remind me why I originally townread them in the first place. Ergo, you are responsible for my townread on the slot now.

Bulba is scum yes, he doesn't do anything, he posts a lot but he doesn't achieve anything with them; he posts and posts and what is the best argument he has made? 'You can't think a scumread has confirmation Bias'

Tell me one thing he has done other than that, you can't, hes scum.

This case is weak and is evidence that you are not reading the game.

PEdit: You're not "allowed" to move your vote? Seriously?

Given that I've started playing in a hydra myself recently, I actually believe them.

+ Bulb is lurking pretty hardcore.

This is patently false. Are you sure you're reading the game?

On to page 167.

[Bulbazak]

The fact that AK has a good chance of getting lynched today and you are defending her so so so hard is making alarm bells ring.

what does this even mean

"you think a person who other people find scummy is town? RED FLAGS EVERYWHERE"

What the absolute fuck is this scumcho? There was a reason that that scumRyu defended the fuck out of OS before he flipped town. And I'm accusing him of the same thing. You are playing way dense this game.

So I'm scum if AK flips scum, and I'm scum if AK flips town? Can you make up your mind, so I know exactly why I'm scum?

[Bulbazak]

I like how you try to discredit me before addressing my points.

You have no points.

I've made the same points over and over again in many different ways. You just keep on ignoring them and going "Nuh uh!". Last time I even broke things down to the grammatical level. I'm through arguing this with you, as you are clearly not listening, and this whole thing is distracting.

That's like half the point of this game; to speculate on players motives. But the question has NOTHING to do with Bcade and everything to do with AK using a "hey look over there defense".

First, you were asking me about player motives based on votes that may or may not exist, from Bacde no less. Bacde's voting history has been eratic, and I really don't want to get into this, especially in a conversation that's about YOU, not AK. Second, AK was not using a "hey look over there defense", she was asking about your motives and criteria.

Let me get this straight....You were town reading her and then when I pointed out her deflect you started scum reading them....which reminded you why you were town reading them. And I did something to make you town read them?

No. I read AK as town at the beginning of d1. Near the end of the day, I started to have my doubts. On d2, you brought up AK as a means to redirect the conversation, yet you avoided actually quoting the post you were talking about. Meanwhile, I had started to scumread AK. By the beginning of d3, AK was a scumread of mine, so much so that I joined her wagon. You finally got around to quoting the selection of the post by AK. After reading the post, I was reminded why I had townread AK in the first place, which lead to her becoming a townread once again and me getting off her wagon.

Well I have no clue what you are doing. Lets say for instance, if Ryu had flipped before OS. I'm pretty sure we'd have a group of players that would have thought that Ryu might have been defending a buddy and some that might think that Ryu was defending town for town cred. Town really has no way of knowing what scum are doing.

You're right, it's not unusual for 2 different groups of players to see the same action differently. It IS unusual, however, for the SAME player to see the SAME action 2 different ways at the SAME time. It is not a natural mode of thought, and therefore it is scummy, as you are trying to leave as many options open as possible in order to achieve a mislynch. Misrep harder next time.

He was bullying Fuzzy

I will never understand why people think pushing players to scumhunt is bullying or scummy...

Give free pass to Cepheir and puts him null

I didn't give a free pass to Cephrir. I just wasn't as convinced as others were that he was scum, and I wanted to observe him myself. Since when is not sheeping the popular opinion scummy?

Seanald is scum but unvoted him

CTD asked for some time to give some final posts, since ThAd is intent on vigging him tonight. Seeing as how Seanald was at L-3, I unvoted to give CTD the time he needed.

At somepoint jumped into AK wagon

Because that's what you do when you scumread someone.

Already kept his options open to jump into your wagon at anytime...

If you'd been reading the game, you'd know that I've been scumreading Nero since d1.

also thinks i am scum..

Waaah... Your point?

His scum list is way to large than his town list....

So I'm taking my time solidifying my reads in a 24 player game and am not intent on handing out townreads like crazy. Your point?

On to page 171.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba is scum yes, he doesn't do anything, he posts a lot but he doesn't achieve anything with them; he posts and posts and what is the best argument he has made? 'You can't think a scumread has confirmation Bias'

Tell me one thing he has done other than that, you can't, hes scum.

This case is weak and is evidence that you are not reading the game.

Oh? Do answer my question then if my case is so weak; what have you done?

Perhaps I missed all the scumhunting you have been doing. How can one write so many walls and achieve so little with them?

I've been pushing Nero as scum since the end of d1 based on his deflection.
I've been pushing Seanald as scum since at least the end of d1 based on him staying on the sidelines and stirring the pot.
I've been questioning Ffullisade on them dodging Thor's questions.
I've asked about the motivations behind various players' posts, most recently AA9's.
Need I go on?

And as for the walls, they are mainly a product of how fast this game moves and my current circumstances, of which I explained in the thread.

I'm surprised the Nero wagon has stalled, but maybe I shouldn't be. It's made up almost exclusively of strong town reads. Nacho's case i think was a very solid piece of scumhunting and it's starting to really make me comfortable with him. The only person on the wagon I have issues with is Cephrir (and those issues have nothing to do with him being on the wagon). It looks to me like scum are reluctant to bus.

I haven't heard a good argument for why we shouldn't lynch Nero. AA9 thinks the wagon is bad because it's a counterwagon, which is a pretty wtf argument. HD is bored by the wagon. AK is against it because she has a meta read on Nero, I think? All these people need to give better reasons for why they aren't voting Nero right now.

Question to AK specifically because she's expressed a solid town read on 4/6 of the people voting Nero: If he's town, why aren't scum jumping at the opportunity to mislynch him?

Ffulisade, I disagree that Nero's defense hasn't been scummy. He's very selectively defending himself, hides behind theory discussion and is sidestepping most of the actual issues. Cases in point:
- His defense for dropping the D1 multiball tell is that he considers all 20+ player games likely multiball. But I've quoted an earlier post that's clearly designed to give the opposite impression, that Nero

didn't

just consider this game multiball without any supporting evidence. He didn't address this point at all because there is no defense for it. It's damning evidence.
- He's arguing back and forth about the merits of leaving a killing role alive, but he doesn't doesn't address the fact that he failed to do the one thing that actually makes the strategy feasible for town, the leashing. He meekly stated that we should give ThAd a pool of players to kill from, but only after I called him out.

Am I to assume that you're done with your final posts then?