NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Cephrir]

Confirmificatified.

[Cephrir]

Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

Vote: Thor

[Cephrir]

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

If the game had started would my comment not have been ridiculous?
What does game start have to do with it being a bad or good comment?

Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.

[Cephrir]

Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.

You've been on this site a while to judge by your join date.
Two questions;

1. Do you vote people you don't intend to lynch?
2. Do you always announce that to them when you vote them?

Unvote: Oversoul
Vote: Cephrir

Baaaaa.

Yes (you for instance); no. However, I do not say I want to lynch someone when I don't.

I don't necessarily have something against playing before we know the game has started; I just think it's dumb to call someone out for posting as though it hasn't.

Beauty and roflcopter are both incredibly silly.

[Cephrir]

Now that I have told you I don't want to lynch you, yes, it doesn't apply any pressure. It did initially, and your reaction seems pretty town. I admitted to not wanting to lynch you because votes no longer count and I'm not planning on revoting you when the game starts.

Chances are I won't want to lynch anyone until at least 15 pages in, but I will vote my best suspicion until then.

[Cephrir]

So my reaction of voting you and calling your push on me hypocritical and bad was a 'town reaction'.
Does that mean you agree that it looked like that?

No.

[Cephrir]

How is that role supposed to be anything but useless? We'd find out that information after Night 1 anyway. Not to mention you just outed yourself as not having any useful abilities for no reason?

If you were intending to claim before CTD suggested a massclaim, why didn't you do it during pregame?

I've only skimmed the last couple pages but for now,

Vote: Oversoul

[Cephrir]

Reads after actually reading intervening pages: Amethyst Kitty, DLG, rofl, Beauty for town. Ryu confuses me, want to see more. Scum vibes from fuzzy but I also thought he was scum in Amnesiac Mafia and he wasn't, so... eh. I don't know how I feel about Thor- the questioning/deliberately obtuse playstyle is kind of annoying but Beauty seems to suggest this is not out of the ordinary.

If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.

[Cephrir]

What makes you think this is about to be a quicklynch? He only has like 5 votes.

[Cephrir]

I don't understand why you're so convinced someone's going to nightkill you OS

[Cephrir]

I wouldn't go that far (@283). I'm not stubborn enough to refuse to claim if it's going through anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'm against it. I suppose Oversoul's information was useful after all, because I would abstain otherwise, lulz.

[Cephrir]

Well, that list sure is abysmal.

[Cephrir]

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

[Cephrir]

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

[Cephrir]

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

[Cephrir]

Townies are going to be able to look at the same information as you and come to different conclusions, even if you are town. Welcome to mafia. Welcome to earth. You are not the standard for objectivity. This is patently obvious. Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me": Not a towntell since ever.

[Cephrir]

Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me"

You mean, like why I'm not giving all the reasons behind all my reads?

Oh shit, look at that.

I'm arguing with the part where you said Slandaar and AA9 are town for no other reason than agreeing with you, not because you refuse to give reasons. Though I can't say I'm especially a fan of that either.

[Cephrir]

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes. Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

@Nacho: I see what you're saying, but I'm not willing to rule it out entirely yet. I'm interested to hear his other information before we make such a decision, as it could make the role less pointless. If he does choose to reveal that there are multiple killing roles D1, though, it does potentially impact our lynch decision and therefore maybe isn't completely useless (for instance, "you aren't scumhunting" becomes a weaker argument).

[Cephrir]

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

I'm beginning to grok that you aren't very good at this game.

I'm not, but I appear to at least be better at logic than you, and none of that changes how scummy you are.

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

[Cephrir]

I like how you're saying HD is strawmanning when he's arguing with the only part of your reads that you've actually posted. Turns out it's hard to discuss arguments that don't exist.

I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.

[Cephrir]

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?

I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.

Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?

1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only

ever

about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?

[mastin2]

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?

I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.

Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

I can read, thanks. Keep dodging the question, scumbutt.

Lynch this please.

I don't know what question you're referring to, but I added context because you didn't seem to understand my point. Apparently now you've just decided to ignore it?

Maybe you should read my post why I explained why I don't want to out all of my reads.

Fact about

whom

? Yourself, or HD? Stop deflecting.

Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?

#Lolcaughtscumarguments

Since not everyone in the game is tunneling me, you're gonna have to actually debunk my arguments rather than laugh at them. Or, just keep standing by yourself in a field yelling about how I'm scum. That's fine too.

<<< I believe these were the quote tags you were looking for. >>>

[Cephrir]

The 'confscum' in question was HD. I'm gonna do my best to ignore you for a few pages, as I think I've made my position clear enough and I'm sick of arguing about exact wording and how arguments argued with arguments on arguments.

On Ryu: My initial reaction was agreement with HD (that Ryu had voted Thor arbitrarily for what he himself claimed was a dumbtell), but then I went back and read it and the posts after that one were better.

[Cephrir]

Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.

Fuzzy: Why? That doesn't seem to jive with anything else you've said.

[Cephrir]

Wow... That was A LOT to catch up on. But, after catching up

Vote B&B

if oversoul is scum, this dies instantly

Cool. Still doesn't mean I can't suspect him. Also, with Nero leaping around and adding nothing beneficial, I'm watching that closely.

yes lets fos nero for not posting content and only voting

VOTE: fenix

If you're implying meta, Fenix is a Goon and thus probably not aware of it.

I'm not liking this whole; "If I'm correct then Nero was silenced."

The whole PR or even fishing for information is scummy as hell.

So

FoS: Cephir.

Why do you think he is faking it?

We don't know if he is or not and we can only judge him on his votes for now.

I'm not fishing for anything. You can't have PRs in normal games. They aren't normal.

[Cephrir]

Faking a post restriction for a part of the game that doesn't matter isn't a scumtell. Did no one notice, somehow, that he started posting words...?

[Cephrir]

Nero Cain is probably town.

[Cephrir]

Nero Cain is probably town.

Cool. Like to explain why?

~Mala

Reaction to getting called out on the fake PR, gut from the last two pages.

[Cephrir]

Guess I need to take another look at Nacho as I have him as null. Will do tomorrow.

[Cephrir]

Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

Vote: Thor

THIS is perpetuating RVS. He's voting someone

for trying to get us out of RVS

. "Wah! The game hasn't started yet! You can't start being serious! Wah!"

Scum.

He was suspicious of someone for confirming. You can't tell me that's not ridiculous.

Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.

#tryinghardtolookliketownposting

Wow, what a shitty point. You could say that about anything that sounds like a townie post.

Beauty and roflcopter are both incredibly silly.

>Doesn't know what to say when two townies are fighting, but feels a need to say SOMETHING because "look I'm participating in meaningful discussion!"

Just my way of saying I thought the two of you were townvtowning...

How is that role supposed to be anything but useless? We'd find out that information after Night 1 anyway. Not to mention you just outed yourself as not having any useful abilities for no reason?

If you were intending to claim before CTD suggested a massclaim, why didn't you do it during pregame?

I've only skimmed the last couple pages but for now,

Vote: Oversoul

>Shameless wagon hop

Number 1

Yes I'm obviously scum for changing my vote, that makes sense. I also spent this post detailing why I was about to vote Oversoul, it's not like I didn't have reasons.

Reads after actually reading intervening pages: Amethyst Kitty, DLG, rofl, Beauty for town. Ryu confuses me, want to see more. Scum vibes from fuzzy but I also thought he was scum in Amnesiac Mafia and he wasn't, so... eh. I don't know how I feel about Thor- the questioning/deliberately obtuse playstyle is kind of annoying but Beauty seems to suggest this is not out of the ordinary.

If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.

This is a lot of words for an awful lot of nothing. Who does that? Oh yeah. Scum.

I listed some town reads and an opinion about massclaim (leaning no). And it's not even that many words.

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

>Needed a reason to OMGUS.

Wow it turns out if you want to portray every action someone takes as scum, you *can*! It's not like your logic wasn't complete garbage, or like Om had just posted really good reasons to vote you as had I in my previous post....

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

>Shameless wagon hop

Number 2

This wasn't even a wagon yet.

If you're implying meta, Fenix is a Goon and thus probably not aware of it.

Possible scum slip that should be followed up on with investigative roles on Fenix if Cephrir flips scum.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? His user title is Goon, as opposed to Mafia Scum, so he is new and doesn't know about meta.

Guess I need to take another look at Nacho as I have him as null. Will do tomorrow.

>Preparing for shameless wagon hop

Number 3

Way to suspect me for something I hadn't even done yet, and I have no intention of voting Nacho, I just want to try to see what everyone else is seeing. No, don't worry, my vote was never going to leave you for quite a while.

That was one of the most retarded cases I have ever responded to. Reach harder.

[Cephrir]

Oh, it's okay for you to withhold reasons for your town reads, but not me. Okay. That said I'll gladly provide reasons for all my reads up to this point fairly soon. The only thing your back-and-forth with Om established was that you're an idiot, and you managed to refute approximately nothing. Most of your other points consist mostly of "Nuh uh that wasn't what you were going to do" (a useless argument) and "You're trying to look town" (a teleological argument).

Gonna go back to ignoring you now.

[Cephrir]

His suggestion to mass-claim seems genuine IMO and Nacho has done far more scummier stuff other then the mass-claim anyway

It's alignment neutral.

CTD did it in the recently finished invitational NY game as scum traitor. However, he did do much more in my opinion here to try and get mass claim to occur than in that game.

Are you following that thread in MD stating that Nacho's summary is a scumtell?

I can't help but read CTD as town for pushing the massclaim so hard.

The existence of the MD thread makes the summary scumtell stupid.

Pointing out useless posts is equally useless.

Cursory reread of Nacho has me liking him more than I did before, so I'd like to hear what's so very scummy about him.

[Cephrir]

@658: I'm unfamiliar with players because I've been essentially gone from the site for three years. However, there is no way I can imagine meta convincing me B&B aren't scum.
I'm a bad player, especially as town- historically my reads are consistently wrong and I'm usually lynched by Day 3. In the few games I am not lynched early I am generally either nearly lynched early, scum, or a replacement.

Post 657 is complete trash.

[Cephrir]

Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie

- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG

- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar

- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer

- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8

- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain

- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix

- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty

- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac

- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde

- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu

- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak

- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut

- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul

- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast

- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9

- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado
Baby Spice
Seanald
ActionDan
Rondar

[Cephrir]

Post More

Desperado

I have a scum read on one of your town reads, have defended one of your scum reads, and have a pretty extensive interaction with your A#1 scumread. What more do I need to do to get a read from you?

Okay, I guess 'post more' isn't fair. Somehow your posts haven't been very memorable for me and I didn't realize there was actually a substantial number (and thus didn't bother to iso you). Not too surprisingly, I still don't have a strong opinion about you. I don't agree with your case on DLG obviously (for one thing, towntells are a step towards scumhunting, and he's has a scumread or two iirc) but I could see it coming from town. I assume you're saying you defended AA9, but the relevant post doesn't really read like that much of a defense to me (maybe a chainsaw against DLG more than an actual defense of AA9). I don't think your interaction with B&B is actually very extensive or telling. I'd put you in the null category. Like with Red Ryu, even though we've seen a fair number of posts from you I still want to see more before making a judgment.

[Cephrir]

Speculating about scum pairings without a flip from either player is a waste of time. Red Ryu is now officially scummy, more for the mindless Nacho pushing than directing investigative roles. The case on Nacho is currently, as far as I can tell, "look at this post now vote Nacho". I hate hate hate cases like this. It's exactly as useful as no reason at all or the "well duh read his posts" case. I don't see what's scummy about the post in question and require some actual analysis.

@Desperado: I'm not really sure why you feel DLG is scumhunting more or less than anyone else. His style is just to ask questions of players to get reactions, though he's light on scumreads outside of AA9. Suspicion of Bulb did seem to pop up out of nowhere admittedly. I dunno, I'm sure one could find another player in similar straits so attacking him seems kind of random to me.

[Cephrir]

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.

[Cephrir]

Is there a ban on agreeing?

[Cephrir]

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

Nacho did infact say he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell, when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

The bolded is my biggest issue, town does not do that so easily. Especially just because he claimed informed townie, otherwise he would have unvoted or at least said it was a possibility. The fact is he never did this.

Nacho thought OS was lying about his role because the role was ridiculous. He turned out to be right. That's not scummy, and it wouldn't be even if he was wrong because the role as claimed was indeed stupid. It seems like your biggest issue is how certain Nacho was. There are a number of other players around here who are way more certain of things than they have any right to be (for the most obvious example see B&B with "Cephrir is 100% scum" but there are plenty of others). Why are you only going after Nacho? (Hint: it's because he's the one with a wagon on him)

By the way, scum are more interested in directing the cop specifically because they just want someone other than themselves to be investigated.

[Cephrir]

I like the existence of the wagon, but not so much the players on it.

[Cephrir]

ob·vi·ous [ob-vee-uhs]
adjective
1. easily seen, recognized, or understood; open to view or knowledge; evident: an obvious advantage.
2. lacking in subtlety.

Hm, it doesn't look like there are ~20 votes on Nacho. I guess 15 of us must be scum!

[Cephrir]

ob·vi·ous [ob-vee-uhs]
adjective
1. easily seen, recognized, or understood; open to view or knowledge; evident: an obvious advantage.
2. lacking in subtlety.

Hm, it doesn't look like there are ~20 votes on Nacho. I guess 15 of us must be scum!

Tell me Ceph, what is your motivation for making this post?

I assume you think Nacho is obvious town if you think its THAT funny that I think nacho is obvious scum

No, I was just pointing out that your assertion that Nacho is "obviously scum" is ridiculous. If it was obvious everyone would see it. Sorry, sass is just me being me

I'm glad to see something from you that resembles a legitimate reason for voting Nacho (that string of posts where he isn't really doing much of anything). So let me ask you, how is he different from Nero, who spent a presumably equal number of posts on the other side of that conversation, being just as useless? Is it just the Oversoul push?

[Cephrir]

Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.

[Cephrir]

Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.

I think this may be tough for you to see because my case is nacho-specific

if a different player was acting the way nacho is right now, maybe they could be town maybe

but not nacho

nacho is scum

Well, okay. I believe that you have reasons now, they just aren't reasons that can possibly convince me.

[Cephrir]

Things I learned on page 42: Bacde is town, AA9 is scum. I mean I already knew the second one but w/e

[Cephrir]

Oversoul- I acted as though your info was true because even if you were scum, you would know whether there are (probably) multiple killing groups. I had you figured for an SK or a member of a less-than-6?-man-mafia. While I still believe you are scum, I'm more suspicious of both B&B and AA9. Now that I think in a comparative light, maybe Fuzzy and Ryu as well.

[Cephrir]

Thor, could you quote the specific post of mine you're referring to? Not sure I see where I'm saying that on page 16. Though I do tend to assume people mean what they say. As I've addressed, I was around from 2006-2009ish, then came back recently.

[Cephrir]

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

I'm beginning to grok that you aren't very good at this game.

I'm not, but I appear to at least be better at logic than you, and none of that changes how scummy you are.

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

I'm calling them scummy for saying someone is 'confscum' (presumably they have "a very strong scum read" and are exaggerating) without giving any reasons. Likewise, I didn't suspect you for wanting to lynch someone, but for wanting to lynch for barely-better-than-RVS reasons.

[Cephrir]

Though I'm not seeing where I said they were scummy for not voting 'confscum' I would still defend that assertion if I did make it. Because if you have a strong enough read on someone to even make that exaggeration, you should really be voting them.

[Cephrir]

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

I'm beginning to grok that you aren't very good at this game.

I'm not, but I appear to at least be better at logic than you, and none of that changes how scummy you are.

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

I'm calling them scummy for saying someone is 'confscum' (presumably they have "a very strong scum read" and are exaggerating) without giving any reasons.

Likewise, I didn't suspect you for wanting to lynch someone, but for wanting to lynch for barely-better-than-RVS reasons.

How is this different from suspecting someone for wanting to leave RVS (which, IIRC, someone (B&TB?) already called you out on and you disagreed)? If you will suspect someone for voting based on "barely better than RVS reasons," how do you suggest we ever leave RVS? Won't any attempt to leave RVS and make a series vote be based on barely better than RVS reasons by definition?

A serious vote is different from "we should lynch this guy".

[Cephrir]

A serious vote is different from "we should lynch this guy".

I provided reasons.
You called them bad and weak.
However, clearly at some point someone needs to advance from totally random to weak serious, and then from weak serious the actual serious cases can be drawn. Unless you're arguing that there is way to make a legit serious case out of a progression of non-serious posts and that this is the only proper way to do it?

Okay, so he was scum for calling someone 'confscum' without evidence...I would point out that this is, again, pedantry. Obviously he called them 'confscum' without actual proof of them being 'confscum'. So at that point you're saying he can't call a gut read a strong read when he has presented no other read as stronger, and that makes him scummy somehow?

I don't get it - clarify a bit more?

First point - you are allowed to suspect someone for weak reasons and to vote them, just not to say 'die scum die' or the like.

Second - First of all, he never specified that it was a gut read. It's not pedantry, because if you have that strong a suspicion, you've got to have a reason. Personally, I don't think 'gut' is usually enough of a reason to be as certain as they were, and I view it as a cop out reason just like "look at his posts". If you can't tell me what's scummy about their posts you have no right to go on insisting you're super duper sure you've caught scum.

The only one being pedantic at this point is you, I don't know why you're insisting we have this big long argument about my word choice or why I've had to clarify the same thing multiple times. I don't think I can be much clearer, and I don't see how it really matters all that much.

[Cephrir]

First point - you are allowed to suspect someone for weak reasons and to vote them, just not to say 'die scum die' or the like.

Why not?
Also, why would scum do it and town wouldn't?

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Second - First of all, he never specified that it was a gut read.

Because a list of reads he can barely put into words as to why he has them are reads based on solid cases he's refusing to discuss?

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

It's not pedantry, because if you have that strong a suspicion, you've got to have a reason.

It's only a "strong suspicion" insomuch as you're taking it to pedantic levels.
It's amongst the strongest of a list of reads none of which have reasons...why is it special?

What? I mean I know I'm talking about the specific words that are used, but how else should one look at it? I feel like you're twisting what's going on here. Fine, I'll be pedantic if that's what you want. By your definition the entire game of Mafia is pedantic. Anyway, to get to the point: the word 'confscum' is equivalent to expressing a very strong suspicion. I don't see how my interpretation is 'taking it to pedantic levels'... I mean, that's literally what he said. And it's special in that I will allow players to not have reasons for their weaker scumreads, because gut is a legitimate reason at that level. Strong scumreads, as I've stated (and I think as I've shown is really my opinion in my interactions with Bacde), require better reasons.

The only one being pedantic at this point is you, I don't know why you're insisting we have this big long argument about my word choice or why I've had to clarify the same thing multiple times. I don't think I can be much clearer, and I don't see how it really matters all that much.

It matters to me because I think you're faking how much you care about word choice in order to make scum cases that look legit and can be pressed for 'legit' reasons, while the cases themselves are, in reality, meaningless gak with no real scumworthiness behind them.

I don't care that much about the specific word 'confscum' except inasmuch as it expresses a strong suspicion. Also, I would hardly call what I had at that point a 'case'. Wow, did I really just type that? Okay, I'm gonna leave that in there, and given that I just typed that, I guess I do care about word choice. >.<

I'm trying to figure out if you really believe what you're saying by pressing you to keep defending the stance in different ways to see if I can find logical holes that appear scummy, or simply town with a playstyle I find disagreeable.

Currently you appear desperate to stop the conversation, as opposed to explaining how your scumhunting style works - which hardly thrills me as a response.

Make sense?

Okay, I understand your angle better now. I think "desperate to stop the conversation" is a bit of a reach.

I don't know that this is "how my scumhunting style works" so much as an isolated incident. I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: shitty town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning. Both because cases are more persuasive and because they help me read the case-maker. But you probably won't see a really coherent case out of me before Day 3 unless someone flips scum. (Example: the recently finished Amnesiac Mafia, in which I spend the entire game barely avoiding the lynch, present a case in Lylo which turns out to be wrong, and lose us the game)

[Cephrir]

I'm starting to come around somewhat just based on the avoiding the thread thing. That's the only thing though.

[Cephrir]

Slandaar is beginning to get on my nerves.

[Cephrir]

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Why did I sound like I was lying to you?

It had nothing to do with how you said anything, I just didn't believe you could possibly want to lynch over something so silly.

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

Duh. I agree.
The point is - whys hould one nebulous reason that is stronger need to be able to justify itself more than a different nebulous reason.
If I have three null reads and decide to lynch one of them, and my answer is 'because' when I choose one...why is that so inherently scummy?
Yeah, maybe it's lazy. But what is the pro-scum motivation there?

Giving reasons makes your opinion more concrete. If you say "I suspect X because gut" it's a lot easier to change your mind later than if you say "I suspect X because of these scummy things he did".

I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: Smurfy town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning.

1. No one was trying to convince you to sheep either opinion at that stage.
2. You are self-expressed as bad at scumhunting, but have attacked two players on how they are scumhunting.

Discuss?

1. Yeah, I was just rambling about my playstyle. And it's relevant to the situation at hand now.
2. Just because I'm bad at scumhunting doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying. Assuming you're referring to AA9 and B&B, there's still a difference- even if I often bark up the wrong trees, AA9 isn't barking up any trees and B&B are giving themselves room to switch trees at any moment (and also aren't giving the town any insight to their thought process, which I believe town should want to do if they want to get their suspects lynched rather than just look town, and so their opinion lives on if they die).

[Cephrir]

He's explained why he's pursuing this line of questioning even though the questions occasionally seem to have obvious right answers. And I actually think it's pretty town of him.

[Cephrir]

Also, I know that not giving reasons is sort of 'in' lately, but I don't care. It's stupid and allows scum to slide by, and I'm going to keep being suspicious of those who do it wrong (for doing it right, see Bacde).

[Cephrir]

I always like it when someone votes a player that isn't generally suspected at all. If Nacho had come in voting Red Ryu I would have been more willing to lynch him.

I have to admit, Mollie's posts are depressingly town. B&B, are you are you didn't get two separate role PMs?

Unvote

for now, but I'll probably be back eventually. Not too interested in anyone who actually has votes right now except possibly AA9. Need to look back, there are a couple players I'm considering.

[Cephrir]

Posting a bunch of reads with detailed reasons is not scummy. It is, in fact, the opposite of scummy, unless the reasons are bad.

Could someone expand on this AA9 meta stuff? Or are we gonna do the hush hush I need this info to be secret for other games thing?

Want to see more from Baby Spice, Syry, Macslot, Fuzzy. A little suspicious of all of them.

[Cephrir]

Fine, maybe I will

[Cephrir]

Tried meta'ing AA9. Didn't see much difference between her town and scum games except for one tell that makes me think she's scum here. However I've noticed she seems to flounder at the beginning of the game on either alignment so I'll keep giving her a chance for now.

[Cephrir]

I would not particularly care about that lynch although it seems kind of arbitrary.

I think you'll probably get more votes going for the guy who's actually posting though.

We don't know there's a vig or that he'll listen to you.

[Cephrir]

I guess I'd probably sheep that, I just don't feel like anyone else would.

[Cephrir]

...Really? That's all you can post about?

[Cephrir]

well, no. It's not

all

I can post about.
It's just the most immediate and easiest thing to post about at the given moment.

So, are you ever planning to start playing, or...?

[Cephrir]

@CTD: I read DLG and Thor as town at the moment. I am not going to share what I'm talking about wrt AA9, as I want to see if the pattern continues once she's done floundering through early game. I will say it's a pretty basic, mindset sort of thing.

[Cephrir]

There's a big difference between the ways RR and Bacde have been pushing Nacho.

[Cephrir]

I lurk about a lot as town, it depends on my mood. I can get links if they are really needed, not like I could ever do it as scum if I don't as town the fact I understand this says all you need to know.

Scum to varying degrees:
Nacho/Thor/Fuzzy/Ceph/Bulba

Tell me more about...me.

You are being disruptive and not in a good way; disrupt the game by trying to divide town seems to be your gameplan.

I get the feeling this is a Thor tell.

Also, Fuzzy, YOU OWE ME A TOWN/SCUM LIST.

I want to see this very very much. Like, produce this or I'll probably vote you levels of much.

[Cephrir]

One, I think? Hence "I get the feeling".

[Cephrir]

VOTE: fuzzy until he provides some legitimate reads and I had better like them when he does.

[Cephrir]

Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

I was going to vote fuzzy eventually, but if there's going to be another vote on him then the second makes enough to actually be pressure. I probably should have voted earlier, I suppose.

I like all the replacements thus far but their day-to-day play will potentially be more telling. I always think catch-up posts are town unless they have everything ass-backwards (see: Syry).

@Mollie: I was saying it seems like a playstyle issue.

[Cephrir]

It seems clarifications are necessary. When I asked "are you suggesting Nacho is being bussed?" I was talking to Nero Cain (1424) who seemed to imply Bacde was bussing.

When I said I always like catch-up posts I meant big catch up posts full of reads (like thezmon's, and at the time I totally thought Kublai had done one but he actually didn't yet), though I suppose my comment about day-to-day play made this unclear. The two sentences were less related than has been assumed. I was reading Hanzo as nooby/confused town though I suppose nooby/confused scum is also possible. I'm gonna give him a few more posts before making a really definite judgment.

[Cephrir]

Even if we did lynch Nacho and he came up town, we obviously wouldn't lynch Bacde anyway, so this discussion is kind of stupid.

[Cephrir]

I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Interestinggggg.

What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

[Cephrir]

@Bulba:

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?

Huh. I thought I had already laid out my reasons for that read, but I guess I've never stated them clearly. Even though I don't agree with his main line of reasoning, it's plainly genuine, I don't think anyone will argue with that. I liked his interactions with AA9 particularly and find he often puts my thoughts in better words than I did when he's not talking about Nacho. In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum and he's taken a few inconvenient positions (admitting Oversoul could actually be scum, for instance, which seems detrimental to his argument, could have agreed to lynch me for a free vote tomorrow and backed off, didn't take the easy route and suspect Hanzo, and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus)

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

[Cephrir]

First point: That's mostly me saying 'gut' in more words.

Second: I mean I'm not saying it can't possibly come from scum I just don't think it's too likely.

[Cephrir]

Please, continue to regale us with your refreshing outlook on the game and protown, intensely scumhunting mindset. Jegus.

[Cephrir]

Wow that is a lot of misreading. It'd be sweet if people could actually read this instead of assuming Syry's case is remotely valid at all seeing as about half of it is based on not knowing who I'm talking about.

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

So, Om walks his merry way onto your scumlist because of how they made their scumlist and three posts later you're sheeping their read? That's almost enough to call you scum right there.

The first post you quote is referring to B&B, not Om. Om has not been on my scumlist at any point.

Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me"

You mean, like why I'm not giving all the reasons behind all my reads?

Oh shit, look at that.

I'm arguing with the part where you said Slandaar and AA9 are town for no other reason than agreeing with you, not because you refuse to give reasons. Though I can't say I'm especially a fan of that either.

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes. Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

@Nacho: I see what you're saying, but I'm not willing to rule it out entirely yet. I'm interested to hear his other information before we make such a decision, as it could make the role less pointless. If he does choose to reveal that there are multiple killing roles D1, though, it does potentially impact our lynch decision and therefore maybe isn't completely useless (for instance, "you aren't scumhunting" becomes a weaker argument).

Fencesitting on Oversoul (wants to hear his other information, without realizing that withholding that information is inherently anti-town), yet is certain that B&B is now scum (ironically for the same reasons he put Om on his scumlist before that shameless sheep).

Again, was referring to B&B all along. How did this not tip you off to that? Your addendum as to how I'm fencesitting on Oversoul doesn't make any sense. Like actually, what is that supposed to say?

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?

I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.

Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?

1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only

ever

about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?

So your case against B&B now includes both "I don't like how you read your reads" AND "I don't like how you're responding to my clearly impeccable argument". My my.

Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.

Fuzzy: Why? That doesn't seem to jive with anything else you've said.

Clearly someone needs to meta fuzzy. Why does Nero's pretending to have a PR matter?

I played in another game with fuzzy in which he was town just these past few weeks. Though rather useless, he at least appeared to be trying. Nero's pretending to have a PR only matters insofar as he wasn't posting content when he could have been.

Calling the case retarded is not a good method of debunking a case. Most of your rebuttals involve not seeing (or refusing to see) what B&B was talking about.

No, they don't? And saying my rebuttals suck without backing

that

up is hardly better?

Oh, it's okay for you to withhold reasons for your town reads, but not me. Okay. That said I'll gladly provide reasons for all my reads up to this point fairly soon. The only thing your back-and-forth with Om established was that you're an idiot, and you managed to refute approximately nothing. Most of your other points consist mostly of "Nuh uh that wasn't what you were going to do" (a useless argument) and "You're trying to look town" (a teleological argument).

Gonna go back to ignoring you now.

I would love to see this. Also, when did you

start

ignoring Bulba? Why are you ignoring Bulba? Why were you ignoring Bulba before?

I was talking to B&B. Again. "You're trying to look town" is a teleological argument in that it can be applied to just about literally anything and no one can possibly say anything to argue against it (aside from "nuh uh").

His suggestion to mass-claim seems genuine IMO and Nacho has done far more scummier stuff other then the mass-claim anyway

It's alignment neutral.

CTD did it in the recently finished invitational NY game as scum traitor. However, he did do much more in my opinion here to try and get mass claim to occur than in that game.

Are you following that thread in MD stating that Nacho's summary is a scumtell?

I can't help but read CTD as town for pushing the massclaim so hard.

The existence of the MD thread makes the summary scumtell stupid.

Pointing out useless posts is equally useless.

Cursory reread of Nacho has me liking him more than I did before, so I'd like to hear what's so very scummy about him.

CTD has already established his pushing massclaim is alignment null. Why are you now townreading him for it? I do find it nicely ironic that his reread of Nacho has him leaning town after B&B bit into his ass for his incoming bandwagon hop.

I was reading Nacho as nulltown before, reread, and my opinion didn't change. As I've stated before this alleged wagon hop I was going to make is a pointless argument, because I wasn't going to do that, and there's no way for me to prove it.

Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie

- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG

- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar

- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer

- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8

- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain

- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix

- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty

- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac

- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde

- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu

- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak

- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut

- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul

- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast

- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9

- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado
Baby Spice
Seanald
ActionDan
Rondar

This reads list is fascinating. His Om read sticks out in particular. Remember that time when he thought Om was scum? His reasoning for that was terrible: "I don't like how Om generates his reads". He makes a note of Om's white knighting, but continues to read him as town. Whoa, hold up. You thought he was scum for insanely retarded reasons, but now you think he's town

in spite of far more alarming things like white knighting

? His Oversoul scumread also is somewhat interesting as he cites reasons that others have already gone over. Could have at least mentioned

what

those reasons are.

I also found it amusing how he felt the need to point out my reads suck. Funny, considering he's in my scum pile and, more importantly, he's now put two (three if you count me) people on his scumlist because "making reads based off whether or not you agree with person X".

Yet again, never suspected Om. I could have repeated reasons others have already used for suspecting Oversoul, and then you would have accused me of parroting others' reasons instead. I pointed out that your reads suck because I don't agree with them. I didn't label you scum for it, just wrong. I don't see what's funny about that.

Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.

I think this may be tough for you to see because my case is nacho-specific

if a different player was acting the way nacho is right now, maybe they could be town maybe

but not nacho

nacho is scum

Well, okay. I believe that you have reasons now, they just aren't reasons that can possibly convince me.

So what does that tell you about Bacde? Anything?

Yes? It told me he wasn't just making shit up?

Things I learned on page 42: Bacde is town, AA9 is scum. I mean I already knew the second one but w/e

Why? What is the purpose of this post? Looks like filler to me.

Well, in the last post you quoted you wanted to know how I felt about Bacde, and now you're criticizing me for telling you. Listing a townread is hardly filler.

Oversoul- I acted as though your info was true because even if you were scum, you would know whether there are (probably) multiple killing groups. I had you figured for an SK or a member of a less-than-6?-man-mafia. While I still believe you are scum, I'm more suspicious of both B&B and AA9. Now that I think in a comparative light, maybe Fuzzy and Ryu as well.

Wait, you figured OS was lying and scum and yet you are more interested in pushing B&B and AA9? And now you want to go after Fuzzy and Ryu too? Wat.

I don't see the problem with this. I think there's a good chance OS is lying scum, that doesn't mean he has to be my top scumread.

Posting a bunch of reads with detailed reasons is not scummy. It is, in fact, the opposite of scummy, unless the reasons are bad.

Could someone expand on this AA9 meta stuff? Or are we gonna do the hush hush I need this info to be secret for other games thing?

Want to see more from Baby Spice, Syry, Macslot, Fuzzy. A little suspicious of all of them.

And we're up to like 15 scumspects from Cephrir now.

Exaggeration, and some of my earlier scumreads have since changed.

Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

I was going to vote fuzzy eventually, but if there's going to be another vote on him then the second makes enough to actually be pressure. I probably should have voted earlier, I suppose.

I like all the replacements thus far but their day-to-day play will potentially be more telling. I always think catch-up posts are town unless they have everything ass-backwards (see: Syry).

@Mollie: I was saying it seems like a playstyle issue.

Hey look, he's calling me shit again. Excellent. He also doesn't appear to understand what a bus is. Understandable, since he refuses to do it (see his Oversoul stance).

Oh, so you think Bacde is bussing? Lol, okay. And I've already cleared up my stance on Oversoul.

I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Interestinggggg.

What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town? He was in your null list, then you said he was town, but never said why. Why isn't DespvNacho townvtown?

@Bulba:

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?

Huh. I thought I had already laid out my reasons for that read, but I guess I've never stated them clearly. Even though I don't agree with his main line of reasoning, it's plainly genuine, I don't think anyone will argue with that. I liked his interactions with AA9 particularly and find he often puts my thoughts in better words than I did when he's not talking about Nacho. In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum and he's taken a few inconvenient positions (admitting Oversoul could actually be scum, for instance, which seems detrimental to his argument, could have agreed to lynch me for a free vote tomorrow and backed off, didn't take the easy route and suspect Hanzo, and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus)

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

Why isn't it a bus? Also, if you're going to say Nacho and Desp isn't town v town, shouldn't you at least have some vague idea of which is which? This fencesitting is scummy as hell.

If I had to pick one now, Desperado. But again, I need to go over the argument again (because I skimmed it the first time).

[Cephrir]

Actually, B&B and AA9 aren't really in my sights anymore. I have B&B as null, maybe nullscum, for now because mollie has been an improvement for the slot. AA9 is scummy, but I've decided to give her a pass for Day 1 because this is typical of her day 1 play. I've said both these things before. I'd say Oversoul ranks right behind fuzzy at present.

Let's talk about everyone I can remember saying I even remotely disliked at all ever.

Macslot- fine now, thezmon is doing fine.
Bulba- liked him since he stopped arguing with Om
Thor?- Had some slight suspicion at some point I think. Basically null.
RR- still a bit on the scummy side but he disappeared.
You- possibly the slightest scumread I've had all game. Still basically null.
Desperado?- this case is currently under review.
BS- still a bit scummy, needs to post.
Oversoul- currently in the back seat
fuzzy- I am voting this guy
B&B- see text of post
AA9- same

That's 11. I'd say anyone who hasn't had at least a slight ping from 11 different players by now isn't paying attention, and I believe that's everyone I've so much as commented "I didn't like X post" for, which doesn't mean they're a scumread.

I'm not sure what your case consists of anymore. Apparently I'm fencesitting while also having too many suspects for you? There's still the alleged Nacho bandwagon vote I was going to make just because I said I wanted to look at him again, and if that point makes you feel good I won't bother continuing to argue it (but you're wrong).

[Cephrir]

Seanald, thoughts on Cephrir? thoughts on anything really, your presence in this game is minimal and you're easy to forget, which is something I don't like.

~Mara

I agree with syrana's & your posts about him pretty much and would be willing to put a vote on him.
and I am town reading syrana usually what happens when someone makes a huge wall post like syr did, as scum it would be a shit ton of IIOA usually but I didn't really get that from syr, and he has been following up after that post, where alot of times scum will make a big post like that then try to skirt by, I feel syr is actively trying to get involved and figure shit out. He's town mon.

Syr's post which was debunked and AK's posts that don't exist. Nice.

ArcAngel is a bad lynch today. We'll talk about her Day 3 or so.

Oversoul's summary post is useless as hell. At the end of it he says "and that's what I think about the reactions to my claim" or something even though what he's saying earlier in the post isn't what he thinks, it's just facts (e.g. "this person supported my claim and doesn't think I'm scummy"). That's not an opinion.

[Cephrir]

That... is actually a good point. =/

[Cephrir]

Okay, now that AA9 has made a post I can definitely respect, I'll tell. The major difference I noted between her town and scum games was that she tends to play more thoughtfully as town, state more and better reads, and they usually go against the grain of the town. Which is exactly what I just saw. You can be town for a good long while. Whereas scum-AA9 doesn't have as many reads and they tend to not be as well thought out and/or to go with the flow.

[Cephrir]

I looked at your three most recent actual scum games (Hobbit, Simpsons, NY 161; because vengefuls are dumb) and quite a few town games, the only ones I recall for sure were Street Racers, Tenements, and Micro 158.

I've never actually attempted a meta read before and I don't think I was terribly good at it, but there you have it.

[Cephrir]

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

People are stretching in their arguments, so you don't look at what they are posting but instead just say that the argument is "town v town"? You can do better than this.

I was saying it's *not* town v town. Pay attention.

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

Very nice posture.

Very nice posture yourself, seeing as you haven't really expressed suspicion of me before this post and I look like the most likely counterwagon to yours at this point.

[Cephrir]

Fine, I'll unwaffle them for you.

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Can you explain what you mean by "fell flat?" I actually thought it was a pretty good point.

"he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads...it was still scumhunting, whether it was fake or not" can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

Response to the main thrust of the case is just a question, and it isn't one that makes a whole lot of sense.

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything,

and the constant complaining about walls is scummy considering she's not commenting on anything in the entire game and blaming it solely on walls.

Seems to be basically the same exact point that I was making about DLG, isn't?

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

Funny that he accuses Nacho of being lazy when the problem is that Desperado is being lazy (and apparently didn't find a single thing to comment on in DLG's walls even though DLG is his main suspect slash decided to post his case without reading them). When someone posts more content than they have all game that had damn well better affect your read on them one way or another.

can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

This...doesn't answer the question I was asking you. You were talking about Baby Spice and said "Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything." Basically saying her townreads are weak and sparsely supported, i.e. fabricated, which is exactly what I was saying about DLG's townreads. Except you said "he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting." So why is it ok for you to call out Baby Spice's townreads for being weak, but when I call out DLG's townreads for being weak, he's still scumhunting and I'm scummy for it?

And why did you ignore my first question? How did my accusation against DLG for voting AA for not scumhunting when he isn't doing any himself fall flat? We clearly aren't on the same page here.

This is the point where I have Desperado winning. 1640 is an adequate response though.

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

Good thing I didn't say that CTD said that? Read the sentence again. I said that CTD proposed the mass claim that you said I was scummy for "vaguely supporting" the idea of even though I was not vague about my position whatsoever. And are you sure that it had absolutely nothing to do with it? Because you said that "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads," and I'm pretty sure his case on DLG falls into that category. If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

This is the point I was talking about being a stretch. "Are you

suuuuuuuuure

that wasn't your reason?" is a stupid question and reminds me of the "nuh uh Ceph you were totally preparing to jump on Nacho" point which can die in a fire.

zzzz

You literally just told me to stop asking you to explain how you developed your read on me because the questions that I'm asking are scummy. If you're already in the confirmation bias stage of this discussion then why are you even bothering to engage me? You've already decided that I'm scum, to the point where you're just making shit up (like "his activity in this game is tied to mine...he waits for me to post, and then responds" such as 1501, 1519, and 1578? That have nothing to do with you?) because it makes your point sound better.

And how am I trying to make your case go away? Why would I keep responding to it (which is evidently all I'm doing) if my goal is to make it disappear? Why do you keep clipping my posts and then not answering the questions that I'm asking (and just calling them scummy instead)?

Oh, sorry, you're only *almost* exclusively responding to Nacho. That's such a big difference!

So basically yeah you won.

[Cephrir]

@Nacho:You could join my wagon instead

In all seriousness though, maybe later.

[Cephrir]

So you're essentially voting AA9 on meta because she isn't playing like scum? Lol, okay. I mean I guess her vote was a little weird but that's about it. I also didn't really see this pattern across multiple games, though to be fair I just ISO'd her.

[Cephrir]

We're gonna need more than that.

[mastin2]

Well, you could tell us what's scummy about it, or comment on the other 20-something players.

Spoiler: <<< mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 7 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Slandaar, Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Amethyst Kitty)

fuzzybutternut - 3 (thezmon221, Cephrir, Oversoul)

ArcAngel9 - 3 (DLG, Syryana, Desperado)
Bacde - 2 (Om the Destroyer, Bulbazak)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 2 (Kublai Khan, Thor665)
Red Ryu - 1 (ArcAngel9)
Cephrir - 1 (Baby Spice)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Om the Destroyer - 1 (fuzzybutternut)

Not Voting - 3 (Hanzo_5, EddieFenix, BeautyAndTheBeast)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

Red Ryu is V/LA from Friday, May 17th until Monday, May 20th.
At least half of the Amethyst Kitty hydra is V/LA until Tuesday, May 21st.

[mastin2]

That's 11 votes I think. The contradiction point is solid but everything else really isn't; I'm going to call the wagon mediocre and continue to pass.

<<< Actually, at this point it was only

9

8

votes. >>>

[Cephrir]

That's 11 votes I think. The contradiction point is solid but everything else really isn't; I'm going to call the wagon mediocre and continue to pass.

Who are you voting again and why?

You could have spent 5 seconds ISOing me but you decided to spend those 5 seconds asking a condescending question?

[Cephrir]

Sorry bro but if you want to attack me I'm not gonna help you do it

[Cephrir]

So, you're saying if you explain your vote and reasoning it will look really weak compared to what you were just mocking about the Nacho wagon and I could attack you over it?
Seems like I don't need to get you to provide that info if you're going to admit that right up front.
So where do you get off mocking a bad wagon when you're pushing a weak case and silly vote by your own admission?

No, I could just tell what you were going for. And, look! I was right! I'm not admitting my vote is weak, I just knew you were going to say it was.

VOTE: fuzzy until he provides some legitimate reads and I had better like them when he does.

Oh, here's the case.

Yeah...I think you're right, I would have attacked you over that.
Where *do* you get off attacking a wagon as weak (with one good point) when you're pushing a 'meh, lurker lynch!'

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful. (One post he's not sure what he thinks about me, a couple posts later he votes me with no explanation). I don't actually understand why he's been allowed to get away with making posts of "Vote: x" and nothing else, and if I recall correctly both times were sheeps not of the largest wagon but of the most recent vote above his. How can you sound more like you just want to lynch anyone but you than that? In other news, every time I see that emoticon I want to lynch it, but I'm trying to restrain myself.

And by the way, I'll attack whatever I want. Just because my vote isn't the most popular in the world doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize a wagon I think is on town. Where do *you* get off telling me not to give my opinion?

And there's a reason i needed to ask.
Because I can't even remember the last time you pressured fuzzy over the so-called purpose of your lynch.
If you're town you should start sheeping people now - because you're not voting right.

Oh, so you *did* already know the answer to your question and were just trying to get me to say it to make your argument look better. Thanks for admitting that.

What more can I do for pressure? I'm voting him, he's continuing to be scum, no one else seems to care. I'm not going to do a Bacde impression, that's not how I play. The reason the Nacho wagon is weaker is that he's also done a lot of things that make me see him as town against that one point, whereas fuzzy's done exactly nothing to alleviate my scumread, ever.

I happen to think my vote is in a good place and you can take your casual dismissal elsewhere.

[Cephrir]

No, I could just tell what you were going for. And, look! I was right! I'm not admitting my vote is weak, I just knew you were going to say it was.

Are you saying your vote is strong?

It's strong in that I'm voting for scum. Is it likely to result in a lynch today, probably not.

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful.

Does he not do that when town?

I don't have the slightest idea.

And by the way, I'll attack whatever I want. Just because my vote isn't the most popular in the world doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticize a wagon I think is on town. Where do *you* get off telling me not to give my opinion?

I get off on a lot of things. I'm easy going like that.
But I do think it's valid to question you attacking and soft supporting a wagon when you are derping around and not actually pushing a wagon - because it looks like potential scum play. You're soft supporting it, while putting yourself against it, and also "working" a vote that isn't it and never will be a valid wagon because you don't care to push it.
So what I see is scum, who knows Nacho will flip town, who would like to see the lynch happen, wants town points for not supporting it, doesn't actually want to derail it, and is content with his "valid" wagon that no one will question because...hey, look, useless poster!
That's where I get off.

Now, where do you get off?

Soft supporting? So you're trying to tell me the only reactions possible to a wagon are voting for it and the AA9 brand "OMG hell no" reaction? I know that I'm not the world's best at reading other players, so I never get confident enough in my reads to have either of those reactions. I don't feel strongly enough about this to try to derail the wagon, I see better scumhunters than myself on it, but I'm not going to put my vote where my own honest opinion isn't except to get a deadline compromise lynch.

You can argue that I'm trying to stay off the lynch for 'town points' if Nacho's town. Go ahead, knock yourself out. If he flips scum I fully expect to be targetted for 'soft defending' him too. Any argument that can be turned on its head and used to argue the opposite that easily is useless in my book.

I don't see the use in quoting random posts and saying "well why don't you try voting for fuzzy?" like you're doing with your suspects. That's not going to get you any more votes, all it does it remind everyone with every other sentence where your vote is. I'd love this to be a valid wagon but the Nacho lynch seems like such a foregone conclusion at this point that I know that wouldn't work even if it was within my playstyle (it's not). When I push a wagon I do it by presenting a case and then rebutting arguments against me.

Oh, so you *did* already know the answer to your question and were just trying to get me to say it to make your argument look better. Thanks for admitting that.

Not a problem - I think it worked good as a strategy.
Honestly, I couldn't remember who or what you were voting, but I knew that because I couldn't it would play out this way.

So you were manipulating me, gotcha.

What more can I do for pressure? I'm voting him, he's continuing to be scum, no one else seems to care. I'm not going to do a Bacde impression, that's not how I play.

Well...you *could* go totally crazy and, when attacking a wagon you think is on town...y'know...mention your good wagon on scum.
Or maybe, like me, question the value of some people's votes and suggest your vote is in a good place and they should move.
Or at least be willing to discuss your case when outright asked about it because you think it's a good case as opposed to getting paranoid and immediately expecting to be attacked.
Something crazy like that?

As I said above I think your technique is useless. "Hey look at Slandaar/AK/whoever else it was" is not going to get you a vote ever. I just did discuss the case, did you read the middle of my post? I also sensed a contrived as hell attack coming for your direction, so I figured I might as well pre-emptively defend myself at the same time. I would have discussed it more amicably if your initial posts weren't obviously hostile.

[Cephrir]

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful.

Does he not do that when town?

I don't have the slightest idea.

Correction: I have a *slight* idea from the one game I've played with fuzzy. He didn't scumhunt very hard, but as I've said before, he at least made an effort, and didn't bandwagon hop as shamelessly. But this doesn't approach an actual meta read.

[Cephrir]

It's strong in that I'm voting for scum. Is it likely to result in a lynch today, probably not.

And this will help town...how?

A. By this logic voting for anyone but Nacho is a waste of time, since he'll probably be lynched today.
B. How was your B&B vote supposed to help town, seeing as that lynch is even less likely than fuzzy?

Soft supporting? So you're trying to tell me the only reactions possible to a wagon are voting for it and the AA9 brand "OMG hell no" reaction? I know that I'm not the world's best at reading other players, so I never get confident enough in my reads to have either of those reactions. I don't feel strongly enough about this to try to derail the wagon, I see better scumhunters than myself on it, but I'm not going to put my vote where my own honest opinion isn't except to get a deadline compromise lynch.

Here you are soft supporting it again.

First of all, no I wasn't. If anything I'm softly against it. Second of all, you've yet to tell me what would be wrong with that even if I was.

I don't see the use in quoting random posts and saying "well why don't you try voting for fuzzy?" like you're doing with your suspects. That's not going to get you any more votes, all it does it remind everyone with every other sentence where your vote is. I'd love this to be a valid wagon but the Nacho lynch seems like such a foregone conclusion at this point that I know that wouldn't work even if it was within my playstyle (it's not). When I push a wagon I do it by presenting a case and then rebutting arguments against me.

As far as I'm concerned responding to this with an emoticon is like saying "I can't rebut this point but I'm going to hope someone else does it for me or everyone assumes there is something obviously wrong with it". I can see that you're probably doing this explicitly to get on my nerves, and I wish you wouldn't.

So you were manipulating me, gotcha.

Yes, I was, what are you going to do with that information besides act like it somehow means something while doing nothing with it?

Act like it somehow means something? Townies don't need to manipulate to make their points, and if you do need to then your point wasn't very good in the first place.

I also sensed a contrived as hell attack coming for your direction, so I figured I might as well pre-emptively defend myself at the same time. I would have discussed it more amicably if your initial posts weren't obviously hostile.

It was only hostile based on the concept that you weren't pushing your lynch - something you fully agree with, so why is that a scummy thing to point out if you agree it is true?

It was hostile based on the fact that it was obviously going to result in a big long argument with me, which of course it did.

Correction: I have a *slight* idea from the one game I've played with fuzzy. He didn't scumhunt very hard, but as I've said before, he at least made an effort, and didn't bandwagon hop as shamelessly. But this doesn't approach an actual meta read.

As least you realized how bad that stance was.

Link?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=26477

By the way, I may have missed this, but why are you so suspicious of Slandaar? Concisely, please.

zzzzz my post outlining why I'm voting AA9 doesn't explain why I'm voting AA9? I want both of you lynched.

Right. So, again. Why aren't you voting the person who is closer to a lynch?

lol a wikipedia link. "...or when they interpret it (information) in a biased way." That's you in a nutshell.

You're saying that I'm interpreting the information in a way that confirms my belief that you are scum. Which infers that I'm town who is interpreting the information wrong and not scum that is twisting the information around to make you look bad.

Right and right. The logic for voting AA9 is terrible- Desperado admits he prefers both Nacho and DLG, and it's not like AA9 is getting lynched right now, so why not vote for the stronger suspect that is actually being pressured? The confirmation bias point really sounds like Desp knows Nacho is town.

Because your wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere and I'm more interested in AA9 right now.

Alternatively, you're scum pushing an unexpected wagon (which, as bacde pointed out, you would know would work in your favor as opposed to joining the biggest rival wagon) as a response to a huge wagon on you, interpreting my behavior (no matter what it is, even if it contradicts an earlier instance) as scummy. You only talk about my early play, which "hurt a fair bit," in generalities and blanket statements, and when I pushed you on them you either: called me scummy for asking you about them, or changed what you originally said into something else. You aren't engaging me in good faith, you're talking through me and then calling me scummy for whatever I do in response.

While I understand this sentiment, the way it's being expressed sounds to me like flailing scum. A townie might feel like their words are being twisted (and they certainly wouldn't imply their attacker is town right after that as with the confirmation bias thing). But "calling me scummy for everything I do in response"... the things you're doing in response *are* scummy. Add this to previous pages of this argument and, well...

VOTE: Desperado

[Cephrir]

A. By this logic voting for anyone but Nacho is a waste of time, since he'll probably be lynched today.
B. How was your B&B vote supposed to help town, seeing as that lynch is even less likely than fuzzy?

A. Not at all, especially if you oppose the wagon. There's a difference between 'unlikely to have a lynch' and 'you're not even trying to get the lynch to happen'
B. Ah, right, because 2 votes vs. 3 votes. Total value change.

A. It would be futile, so I haven't bothered.
B. My point wasn't that my vote was better, it was that our votes were essentially the same and you were criticizing me for something you were doing as well.

First of all, no I wasn't. If anything I'm softly against it. Second of all, you've yet to tell me what would be wrong with that even if I was.

First of all - yes, you were softly supporting it.
Second off, yes, I did explain how it was a scum strategy and why it was "wrong".

I was admitting that I could be wrong in my opposition. Frankly anyone who won't admit they could be wrong is disingenuous. If being lukewarm about things is a scumtell you had better lynch me now because I'm gonna keep doing it. You did explain why it could be a scum strategy, and I explained how the opposite could be too, and you ignored me.

As far as I'm concerned responding to this with an emoticon is like saying "I can't rebut this point but I'm going to hope someone else does it for me or everyone assumes there is something obviously wrong with it". I can see that you're probably doing this explicitly to get on my nerves, and I wish you wouldn't.

Well...considering your "presented case" on Fuzzy. Yeah, I figured what was wrong with it was self-evident to everyone without me having to say it.
Should I just say 'I think you're pulling my leg in an unimpressive way' instead of posting the emoticon? I can do that.

Yes, but it would be better if you actually gave reasons for disbelieving me.

Act like it somehow means something? Townies don't need to manipulate to make their points, and if you do need to then your point wasn't very good in the first place.

It's a point you agreed was true, so...yeah, if I exaggerated reality to show something that was true to be true I really must be weird.
What are you even arguing here? You're just randomly slapping at nothing and implying it is scummy without being able to say it or to show why it is.

You're seriously trying to tell me manipulating others' words isn't scummy? Get real.

It was hostile based on the fact that it was obviously going to result in a big long argument with me, which of course it did.

Yeah, how *dare* we scumhunt!
Wait...

You keep taking my quotes out of context. The fact remains that your post was hostile, and I was defending my assertion that it was hostile, and here you go off on this tangent.

I'm not really seeing the gameplay shift in Fuzzy. He looks quite similar in that game. He's certainly lacking in explanations, consistent posting, and a lot else. Is it just the lack of bandwagon hopping then?

He has explanations, though, at least sometimes. They aren't always on time, but they exist, and you won't see him calling someone town then heel-face-turning on them with no stated reason.

[Cephrir]

I feel like you're responding to each of my points in a vacuum as though the rest of the argument that went before them didn't exist and mingling the parts of the argument together when I was just trying to respond to specific points. One way or another we seem to start in one place and you end up steering me into arguing about something else.

Specifically I'm referring to the first and third quoteblocks, which I'll ignore for now because of this. Quick responses to the rest.

Fencesitting can be scummy, but it isn't always. It's scummy if someone does it all the time, but not if they do it once- you're allowed to not be certain about cases every now and then.

Could you explain why this is a scum strategy to get people to admit to something that is true?

Yes. You could just point out something that's true, and have an honest and straightforward argument, rather than trying to make yourself look smart.

So is it the heel/face tun that's scummy?

It's all of it. The bandwagon hopping, the sudden reversal on me, and the lack of reasons on everything.

[Cephrir]

You're allowed to note that I'm fencesitting a bit, you just aren't allowed to suspect me for it unless it becomes a pattern. I mean, null reads are a thing people have. That said, as should be obvious from my current vote, I'm climbing down the fence back to the against-the-wagon side.

Yes. You could just point out something that's true, and have an honest and straightforward argument, rather than trying to make yourself look smart.

So...it's not scummy, it's Thor being a ponce?
I thought you said it was scummy?

It is. The townie thing to do would be the straightforward statement, not the let-me-try-to-box-you-into-a-corner-first-so-I-sound-better. We've done this to death though, you don't think manipulation is scummy and I do, we can agree to disagree.

It's all of it. The bandwagon hopping, the sudden reversal on me, and the lack of reasons on everything.

None of which you saw/recall in that other game - and that's why he's scum in this game?

Yep.

[Cephrir]

Although the fuzzy stuff is also independently scummy- the reason I voted him initially had pretty much nothing to do with meta, but your insistence that I look into it has only convinced me further.

[Cephrir]

@Desp:
With respect to 'the logic for voting AA9' I meant how you are voting her even though Nacho has more votes and was a better suspicion. That doesn't make sense. It does smack of looking for something else to go after because Nacho pointed out you were ignoring the rest of the game.

Since you seem to still be missing this point, I'll spell it out for you. 'Confirmation bias' implies that the person in question honestly believes what they are saying, and they are therefore town.

If you read my post carefully, you'll see that I wasn't criticizing the complaint about having your words twisted (though I don't feel like that is actually happening by the way), but rather the way you did it.

[Cephrir]

Red Ryu, how is Nacho's push on Oversoul different from Bacde's push on Macho?

[Cephrir]

You de-bolded one word. Obvious scum tactic right there.

[Cephrir]

I thought my 1992 was pretty obviously sarcastic.

Why doesn't Desperado have more votes yet? (See what I did there Thor? Watch, it's not going to help)

[mastin2]

Temporary V/LA until

probably

Wednesday or Thursday

inb4 you promised us reads. I'll get to those, I promise. This is a large game, and i'm not going to be completely helpful in a game I haven't read.
Just

please

don't lynch me.

Why bother telling everyone you're V/LA when you aren't contributing anything anyway

<<< Because he'll get his ass prodded if he doesn't. >>>

[Cephrir]

You're going to need to be more specific...

[Cephrir]

So if we look at wagon composition between Nacho and Desp, we find that the Nacho wagon has 2 likely scum on it (Baby Spice and Desp) and 3 questionable players (Bacde, Red Ryu and Seanald).
If we look at the Desp wagon, it's pretty much all townreads to varying degrees.

I wonder which wagon is scum driven?

~Pertayter

Good point. I've got 2 town, 2 scum and 4 question marks on Nacho, and myself, 3 townreads and 1 question mark on Desp.

[Cephrir]

Good point. I've got 2 town, 2 scum and 4 question marks on Nacho, and myself, 3 townreads and 1 question mark on Desp.

Care to put names to them faces, Ceph?

Bacde and CTD are town, BS and Desp are scum, you can figure out the 4 question marks by POE, and the question mark on Desp is you.

[Cephrir]

Slandaar wins that argument hands down. I found Thor's arguments with him, myself, and B&B to be pretty bad. But I'm not sure that necessarily makes him scum. Definitely on my deal-with-later list.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir's AA9 meta tell fell extremely flat. He cited meta reasons for suspecting AA9, but wasn't willing to share them when specifically asked because he hadn't seen enough to confirm a pattern (on page 55 of the game). He then eased up on her (stating that he still suspected her, but was going to give her a pass because her play was "typical") and then moved her into solid town after her big analysis post because it turns out

that

was his meta tell ("she's more thoughtful and posts more and better reads as town that go against the grain"). I've already pointed out that her thoughtfulness can be questioned, but regardless of how you read her analysis post, Cephrir's stance on her feels fabricated to me. The whole "I've found something meaningful, but I'm not going to share" spiel is most commonly a scum ploy, and the payoff in this case was particularly weak.

I did say "it's a basic, mindset-y sort of thing" which it was. I couldn't share immediately because then I could expect her to do exactly what she did to get a townread out of me. It ended up working out in her favor. I will admit that my meta-ing didn't produce that much- I don't really do meta and I only bothered because someone else told me I should.

Would gladly lynch any of BS/OS/Desp. I'd say the three of them and fuzzy would be my favorite lynches today.

No idea where Nero is coming from, but no.

I realize I'm not being terribly original right now.

[Cephrir]

I guess I should at least give you a chance. B&B, why Nero?

[Cephrir]

I guess I should at least give you a chance. B&B, why Nero?

Because he hasn't done shit, he's been active-lurking through the game, hasn't participated meaningfully in any way with anyone or anything, and is voting us for a joke post.

On the one hand, some okay points, though they don't really deserve a vote especially right now with deadline looming and a million other prospects. Not to mention, only the last doesn't apply to fuzzy, who is also actively scummy.

Bacde make up your mind, holy balls. You may be either bipolar or disturbingly good at pretending to be bipolar.

If Nacho gets lynched today via the counterwagon not being able to decide who to actually be on, I will be somewhat cross. I came in here after the 5th-4th last pages or whatever all ready to slap a vote on Baby Spice and then she flipped out and got replaced... I don't know what to make of that, but I'd like to give a less-insane replacement a chance. If that becomes the only legitimate counterwagon I guess I'll have to move to it but I still want Desperado atm.

[Cephrir]

@Desp 2259, in which I should use quote blocks but don't feel like it:
Syryana is not deflecting in 2200. The only one looking bad after "the Baby Spice fiasco" is Baby Spice, and maaaaaybe Red Ryu.

the confirmation bias point has to mean you think Nacho is town. That's how you solve the apparent contradiction between thezmon's posts. If you insist that you hadn't flipped your read on Nacho, give how convinced those posts seemed, yeah, you're scum.

We understand your reasoning for voting Arc in a vacuum, it just doesn't make sense in context, where you were hardcore sold on Nacho. Your confirmation bias points read as backing down or admitting you're scum. It's hard for me to get something other than one of those things out of them. I am always wary of the 'scumslip' theory, as I don't think I've ever seen one be correct, but without this point the case on you is still easily solid enough to have my vote.

[Cephrir]

Bacde make up your mind, holy balls. You may be either bipolar or disturbingly good at pretending to be bipolar.

nice attempt to discredit me by using a reference to mental disorders

does being bipolar affect nacho being scum in any way?

It wouldn't if he was scum and I think you've already done a nice job of discrediting yourself without my help

@Desp 2259, in which I should use quote blocks but don't feel like it:
Syryana is not deflecting in 2200. The only one looking bad after "the Baby Spice fiasco" is Baby Spice, and maaaaaybe Red Ryu.

the confirmation bias point has to mean you think Nacho is town. That's how you solve the apparent contradiction between thezmon's posts. If you insist that you hadn't flipped your read on Nacho, give how convinced those posts seemed, yeah, you're scum.

We understand your reasoning for voting Arc in a vacuum, it just doesn't make sense in context, where you were hardcore sold on Nacho. Your confirmation bias points read as backing down or admitting you're scum. It's hard for me to get something other than one of those things out of them. I am always wary of the 'scumslip' theory, as I don't think I've ever seen one be correct, but without this point the case on you is still easily solid enough to have my vote.

No. It. Doesn't. Is there any evidence is this thread,

anywhere

, where I say that my scumread on Nacho has gone away? That does not have to do with me saying he is using confirmation bias? No, because it doesn't exist, I don't think that, and you and Bulb and Nacho are using an incredibly narrow definition of confirmation bias, and what it means to say that another player is using it, to tell

me

what

I

meant when I said it, and thus justify voting me because you

don't have any other relevant reasons to do so.

Bulb has already pretty much addressed this but you can't just change what words mean. I think you are probably trying to backpedal on this point.

Lynch the slot, not the player.

If the previous player was scummy, that slot is still scummy.

Good advice from the best mafia player I have ever played with.

This is true, but the presence of a replacement can also give us more information (we get to try reading another player in the same slot- if they both turn out to be scummy, that carries more weight than if it was just one player; if not, if might have been the player).

[Cephrir]

Oh, I forgot to add, I have plenty of other reasons for voting you. They're all over the thread and I believe I've posted some of them myself. If the confirmation bias point was the only reason for my vote I wouldn't be voting you.

[Cephrir]

I bet you're wrong a lot, aren't you? Not everyone is an automaton...players are guaranteed to make mistakes as either alignment, get caught in your web of neverending quote boxes and buzzwords, and eventually just give up under the sheer weight of it all. But your conscience is clean because you went by the book.

This is among the silliest points you have made and that's saying a lot. Desperate much?

[Cephrir]

Haylen, read fuzzy's iso and then read this.

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful. (One post he's not sure what he thinks about me, a couple posts later he votes me with no explanation). I don't actually understand why he's been allowed to get away with making posts of "Vote: x" and nothing else, and if I recall correctly both times were sheeps not of the largest wagon but of the most recent vote above his. How can you sound more like you just want to lynch anyone but you than that?

[Cephrir]

And this.

Alright, so now I'm going to wrap up this post with this:
VOTE: fuzzy

I don't like your overall mentality with the game at this point. You've been really dodgy this game. I don't find any value in any of your posts. Your reads are safer than OS's information was. Gut read? Really. Develop something. Try. Have AP Exams? Cool story bro, so do I. In fact, I have an exam on Thursday. You don't see me dodging the game and making useless third-party comments.

I feel fuzzy's gone unnoticed, and you should all notice him through my post. Cephrir's confrontation with him was a start. Oh, and I want a reads list from him too.

[Cephrir]

A possibility on the CTD thing: even if his reads were based on the massclaim thing, he didn't hesitate to provide them, despite how they were generated (hence "regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans")

If a scum aligned player is pretending to use confirmation bias you wouldn't say that they have confirmation bias you'd say they were faking confirmation bias. Your post implied he actually had it, and don't tell me that's not what you meant because all the words around those two point to the same thing iirc.

[Cephrir]

I'm getting sick of arguing a point I barely care about though

[Cephrir]

I can't speak for anyone else but that would have been sufficient for me. Bacde, it would be a shitty case if this was the whole case but it's like 1% of the case

[Cephrir]

The reason I'm asking you, specifically, Cephrir is because you had me "winning" the original argument with nacho, and only started voting me after Bulb started pushing the conf bias case really hard. So...what are you referring to exactly?

No I didn't I had you winning one point of said argument (but decided Nacho's response later was sufficient). This just isn't true.

[Cephrir]

Are you readin the thread? I mean I can go quote half of Nacho's posts in the last 10 pages if you insist. Do you really need me to do that?

[Cephrir]

In my book sheeping means following someone's vote because you think they're so great. I'm following someone's vote because I've read their argument and agree with it. In principle though, yeah, basically.

[Cephrir]

Your reactions to his case have also been less than stellar

[Cephrir]

Yes.

[Cephrir]

I suppose I can see how Desp could be flailing town. I think I've been tunneling. He does kind of remind me of the way I flail as town. What do I do when deadline is approaching and I'm not sure about any of the three leading wagons? Seeing as P_A is looking pretty okay for not taking one of the easy ways out of her own possible lynch. I guess I'll pick one of the options I still like.

Unvote, Vote: Haylen

Almost as happy voting Oversoul; would compromise for Desperado, P_A or Thor though I wouldn't be excited about the latter two.

[Cephrir]

K.

Unvote, Vote: Oversoul

[Cephrir]

You've read the early game, right? By now you should have figured out he's an asshole.

I don't get what the point of playing in a hydra is if you're going to act like two separate players.

[Cephrir]

Do we know what the record is for "voting the same player the most number of times in a game day"? Bacde is really gunning for the title.

[Cephrir]

I believe Oversoul's claim. It resonates too well with his awkwardness around his fake-claim gambit ("Why would anyone shoot me?", "I don't need protection because I am useless and if scum just want a kill in general at a later time they know my death won't be interfered with.") and I agree with Bacde that the claim post sounds town. SK is of course a possibility, but I'm not willing to pursue that possibility on D1 without having any indication that an SK is in the game to begin with.

Oversoul - 10 (Desperado, penguin_alien, Kublai Khan, Syryana, Nachomamma8, Cephrir, Bulbazak, thezmon221, Haylen, PeregrineV)

Nacho, Cephrir, thezmon, PV. Anyone wanna take a bet on how many of them are opportunistic scum?

This attack is cheap as all hell. What's opportunistic about this wagon and not all the others? Sure, it popped up quickly, but it's not like most of these players hadn't already expressed suspicion of OS. The only one here I could see giving any credence to is PV (since he still doesn't seem to have read the thread, I think?). The claim post does sound kind of town but it's not sufficient for me.

I don't really get why a BP should attempt a gambit that is more likely to get them lynched than nightkilled. Since it seems like this is going to wind up being OS vs. Nacho I'm sticking on OS. Probably going to keep voting him today unless a Haylen wagon materializes.

[Cephrir]

If anything that gambit would prevent you from being nightkilled (since you're claiming not to have an actual PR).

[Cephrir]

Eddie #2575 is a terrible post.

[Cephrir]

Somehow the softclaim point went over my head before. Happier with this lynch, think it should happen.

[Cephrir]

I hate claims that explain previous behavior, and your rant of why bulletproof is such a terrible horrible thing is not so good. Bulletproof is probably my favorite role as town because you're literally unkillable town and there is no reason for you to hold back ever.

See below

If Oversoul legitimately got a town 2-shot BP role, then why wouldn't his strategy be to lay low and scum-hunt hard?

Because not everyone plays this game the same.

I don't really see why that is so hard for people to understand.

You're right we should never lynch anyone ever because they're probably just playing differently. Let's just no lynch until the cop shows up with a guilty.

[Cephrir]

Neither? I've been scumhunting all day? I guess I must just be ~~playing differently~~~~

[Cephrir]

Also, it just occured to me - you literally just admitted to not answering my questions *as a strategy to deal with ScumThor*
When LITERALLY MOMENTS AGO you claimed you'd answered everything from me and acted bewildered that I thought you hadn't.

I am interested in seeing a rebuttal to this because I don't think there is one.

[Cephrir]

Quick glance at Ryu's ISO tells me Nacho, BabySpiceSlot and Nero Cain are not bluescum. Perhaps Desperado as well. BabySpiceSlot could very easily still be probablyredscum. Despite the extensive interactions with Thor I could still see them being scumbuddies. Maybe not from Thor's angle, though, I should take a look at that.

Need to look back at the early Ryu wagon, I bet there's a lot of info there.

[Cephrir]

I really doubt red Ryu was scum with Nacho. Just read RR's posts. I don't think there's any way he'd play the Nacho wagon the way he did.

Bacde's 2831 is like the second thing from him that's pinged me at all this whole game. No thanks.

[Cephrir]

Tbh: I have a hard time reading Ceph.
It's not that he's not likely as scum. It's that I don't see him as scum.

Ryu, hmm. Now THERE is a likely scum if I ever saw one.

Don't want to vote him just yet though. Ryu, what do you have to say to this?

.....................damn it, Ryu.

That's just too cute.

What?
I don't want to lynch Ryu.

Haven't looked into every possibility yet but for now,

VOTE: Haylen

[Cephrir]

The following is a brief summary of each slot's interactions with Ryu.

Mac/thezmon

: Mac never does anything in the entire game except vote Ryu. zmon had a town read.

CTD

: minimal interactions.

Nacho

: Constantly responds to RR posts. Would say coaching if it weren't for other stuff. Decent-sized fight ensues that makes me think they probably aren't buddies. but then backs off and returns Ryu to nullread. Still think Nacho isn't bluescum because of RR's posts.

DLG/PV

: DLG suspects Ryu early but this evaporates. PV never mentions RR.

Nero

: No interaction except "cop this guy". No way.

Bacde

: Whiteknights and chainsaws Ryu several times but not bluescum, Ryu sheeped him way too hard.

Eddie

: Null read early... nothing else ever.

Bulbazak

: "If Ryu is scum so is Bacde"... well at least he's consistent even if the reasons for this statement changed entirely. Votes Ryu for his attack on OS; has backed off pairing theory today.

Thor

: The notorious post 76 (wants to lynch Ryu pregame). Condescending wallfight. Pushes Ryu until B&B wallfight, then later returns to RR. Ends day with Ryu on 'scummish'. I am not convinced this couldn't come from scumbuddies.

Desp

: Small attack in 539, 932 could be prodding a buddy. Scumread ex machina in 2374.

BS/PA

: Starts on Ryu vote, eventually switches off then ignores Ryu. Points out Nacho was a counterwagon to Ryu (I examine this later).

Slandaar

: Rather than chainsawing against a specific player, generally attacks everyone on the wagon. Multiple times. Otherwise ignores Ryu.

Seanald

: No mentions.

AD/Hanzo/Thad

: No mentions from any of them.

fuzzy/Haylen

: The posts I quoted in 2842 are it basically. "Leaning scum" in 2534.

KK

: Votes Ryu in mid-catch-up; asks for stronger case (b/c he has Ryu as second strongest scumread I think), strongly worded point against Ryu's cult leader joke (and he was right, go figure).

AK

: Consistently suspicious of RR (always second or third suspect all day). Not necessarily anything wrong with this, I suppose.

AA9

: Big long readpost with no mention of RR into vote RR seems weirder now but she's still town.

This is just based on bluescumness-if-scum and isn't really a scumlist (i.e. just because I say someone is a likely scumbuddy doesn't actually mean I think they're scum, though there is a correlation). First category only is strongest-weakest, others have no order.

Likely RR Scumbuddies

Haylen
Slandaar
Desperado
Thor
Penguin = Peregrine

Unlikely RR Scumbuddies

Nacho
Nero
Bacde
Kublai

No Conclusion

Mac/thezmon
CTD
Eddie
Bulbazak
Seanald
AD/Hanzo/Thad
AK
AA9

[Cephrir]

Oh, I forgot Om too. Have notes on both, just failed to transcribe them.

B&B

: Jiffy had Ryu as very certain townread, mollie didn't seem to care early. Mollie eventually scumreads him, super late to the party. No conclusion.

Om

: attacked Ryu hard all the time then doesn't vote him because wagon was scummy. Not much later, still thinks Ryu is scum. By day end 'questionable' though this is from the other head. Likely scumbuddy, between Thor and Penguin/Pere.

[Cephrir]

Oh, and those on the Nacho counterwagon to RR: RR, Bacde, Nero, AK, B&B. Probably makes more sense to put AK at the bottom of Likely scumbuddies and move Pere/PV to no conclusion, those were very weak anyway.

Likely RR Scumbuddies

Haylen
Slandaar
Desperado
Thor
Om
AK

[Cephrir]

Dear CTD,

Why?

Love,
Ceph

[Cephrir]

Okay, fair enough.

I think you'll see that I'm not his buddy when Haylen flips blue though.

[Cephrir]

I recognize that the first part of my post is basically just summary. I then drew conclusions based on said summaries.

[Cephrir]

@thez: Do you really think bluescum would bus today? they lost one already and it's multiball.

[Cephrir]

Okay, fair enough.

I think you'll see that I'm not his buddy when Haylen flips blue though.

This doesn't stop you from flipping red scum

~Mara

Right, but we were discussing the possibility that RR was my scumbuddy.

[Cephrir]

De ja vous. Here you go, AK.

It's hardly just a lurker lynch. Have you read his posts? Mindless bandwagon hops, total uselessness, and even manages to contradict himself despite never saying anything useful. (One post he's not sure what he thinks about me, a couple posts later he votes me with no explanation). I don't actually understand why he's been allowed to get away with making posts of "Vote: x" and nothing else, and if I recall correctly both times were sheeps not of the largest wagon but of the most recent vote above his. How can you sound more like you just want to lynch anyone but you than that?

Alright, so now I'm going to wrap up this post with this:
VOTE: fuzzy

I don't like your overall mentality with the game at this point. You've been really dodgy this game. I don't find any value in any of your posts. Your reads are safer than OS's information was. Gut read? Really. Develop something. Try. Have AP Exams? Cool story bro, so do I. In fact, I have an exam on Thursday. You don't see me dodging the game and making useless third-party comments.

I feel fuzzy's gone unnoticed, and you should all notice him through my post. Cephrir's confrontation with him was a start. Oh, and I want a reads list from him too.

Tbh: I have a hard time reading Ceph.
It's not that he's not likely as scum. It's that I don't see him as scum.

Ryu, hmm. Now THERE is a likely scum if I ever saw one.

Don't want to vote him just yet though. Ryu, what do you have to say to this?

.....................damn it, Ryu.

That's just too cute.

What?
I don't want to lynch Ryu.

Haven't looked into every possibility yet but for now,

VOTE: Haylen

[Cephrir]

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

Reminds me:
What do people (not just KK, but KK can answer too) are the chances that at least one, if not two, of the neighborhoods are town-scum neighborhoods? I personally would say the chances are pretty good.

One, almost certainly, two , maybe. What Thor said basically.

I'm curious to see where Amethyst Kitty's line of questioning is going. But not really. They are scum.

Quick, somebody (not Amethyst Kitty) name 5 reads that Amethyst Kitty has.

If you have to ISO, then you have to uncover 10 substantial reads.

Can't be done. Amethyst Kitty is a hydra double-posting nothingness.

AK has probably been the most forgettable non-lurker in this game. Can't remember more than 3 reads from them and one of those just because it's on myself. Valid criticism.

Now that I think about it, starting to come around to Thortown and maybe even his suspects. Like I said earlier, being on my possible bluescum list doesn't actually mean I suspect you. I'll probably construct another reads list sometime soon.

[Cephrir]

We interrupt these quote walls (where, incidentally, Thor is winning by leagues) to bring you a quick mostly-off-the-top-of-my-head reads list. I can explain as necessary.

Town

Bacde
Kublai Khan
Nacho = Om^
Bulba
CTD

Leaning town

Thor^
thezmon
Eddie = Nero*
AA9
PV (DLG)

Null

Thadmiral
Seanald
AK*

Lean scum

PA
Desperado^
Slandaar^

Scum

ffullisade
Haylen^

* = plan to examine in greater depth, feel like my opinions are outdated
^ = on my connections-with-bluescum list

[Cephrir]

ugh this is dumb everyones reads are different how is this game supposed to work

simple. We pick, dig, and watch the pattern of people for slips and what not.

yeah but with you being scum and Cephir probably being scum too (seriously, I'm a townread of Cephs? Why?) and no one being willing to lynch you guys this is going to be tough

lol did you seriously respond to my complaining post trying to be helpful by saying basically "we play by scumhunting". Seriously, what town would say that?

Really? I've been calling you obvtown since early day 1.

[Cephrir]

Yeah, I immediately noticed that contradiction as well. I thought you were town thez. =/

Not sheeping at present (for one thing it's worth noting ffull lied just as badly if not worse because they kept changing the story over more posts and still hold they didn't contradict themselves). But 3065 is yet another example of how absurdly town Bacde is.

[Cephrir]

@thez: Do you really think bluescum would bus today? they lost one already and it's multiball.

True, I forgot about that. However Haylen's

death and flip as bluescum

wouldn't clear you as town, mind you.

Oops, that's what it should say.

If I wanted to be cheeky I would point out that this looks more like a scumslip now but I would never do something like that

[mastin2]

also why are you scumreading us cephrir? you had us as town yesterday

Actually, I didn't. I had Majiffy as scum early, then your posts brought it up to "null, maybe nullscum" and your argument with Thor (mainly the contradiction point) has brought it back down. Looking through my ISO for where I said you were town (because I didn't say it, I just said "mollie's posts are depressingly town" which isn't the same thing), I did notice that I thought Thor wasn't doing so well at the beginning. I suppose it's possible arguing with Thor for this long just isn't possible to do without looking bad. But the story change is pretty bad, so I think I'm just going to apply that to Slandaar.

Obviously I'm not completely sold on this one, that's why I'm still voting Haylen.

In other news 3072 does sound kind of like BS.

Spoiler: <<< I sure hope these late mod-edited votecounts are more annoying for me than they are for you. >>>

Haylen - 5 (Cephrir, Om the Destroyer, Nero Cain, Thor665, penguin_alien)

Thor665 - 2 (Slandaar, ffullisade)
Desperado - 1 (ArcAngel9)
Cephrir - 1 (CrashTextDummie)
thezmon221 - 1 (Bacde)

With

21

alive, it's

11

to lynch.

[Cephrir]

I would have less issue voting thezmon if Haylen was dead

[Cephrir]

Nero stop poking AA9 she's town and your argument is stupid. I don't have time to actually address anything right now, but I'm caught up and it seems this is in order.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: thezmon221

[Cephrir]

Who do you think is scum based off of Syryana's reads?

sorry for taking so long to get back to this, or even in the game. real life is kicking my ass.

anyway, Cephir would be the top one, I didn't notice too much interaction between him and red ryu day 1, but coming into the beginning of day 2, Cephir exclusively focuses on who Red Ryu's partners would be, I think this is an obvious and easy tactic for scum to try and use, and inadvertently or oppositely gives all the "red Ryu interaction" one needs to form a read on who his partner could be. So with Syrana scum reading Red hard, as well as Cephir hard and no one scum reading Syr, I think we got another member of blue here.

VOTE: Cephrir


catching up now, still got a few pages to go.

By the way this is garbage. You think I'm bluescum *just because* I'm hunting bluescum by looking for associative tells? I fyou were trying to connect me with Red Ryu I'd understand, but this is just a reach. Setting up to lynch me tomorrow? By the way, I'm going to do the same thing when we get a redscum flip (which we're probably about to).

Also, by my count,

thezmon appears to be at L-1

.

[Cephrir]

At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.

If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

[Cephrir]

I guess that counts as a power role but the point remains

[Cephrir]

In other news, Cephrir is transparently scum regardless of Thezmon's alignment.

At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.

If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

I guess that counts as a power role but the point remains

No, the point doesn't remain, it has to be reconsidered from another angle (even if the conclusion stays the same). This is classic scum-pushing, narrow-minded and inflexible. I have no reason to doubt that Cephrir legitimately believes Thezmon to be scum, but he's not going about it in a remotely town way.

I'm fine with a Thezmon lynch, but the day is still young and I'd like Cephrir sorted out.

unvote, vote: Cephrir

There are ways to paint me as scum, but this isn't one of them. The point absolutely remains, the point being that if thez was actually a Universal Backup, one way or another, he should have been notified that he is now backing something up, which doesn't seem to have occurred. If you think I legitimately believe thez to be scum, what does it matter how I push him unless you want to argue that it's not genuine? (Which you're not)

It's okay though, I know I'm not going to make it through a game with a decent player list without being lynched, I never have, so you might as well get it over with.

[Cephrir]

Eh, everyone's pretty much been babbling about it without giving a lot of reasons since I argued with B&B 115 pages ago.

I'm a really easy and uncontroversial scumread to have. Need someone to pad your scumlist? Why not Cephrir?

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, why do you say that thazmon221 isn't activated as a back-up to a dead non-VT, specifically the first one killed?

Well, because that seems to be what he's saying, and I would think he'd find out if this had occurred. My suspicion is that he assumed the role worked like the epicmafia Amnesiac (gets to pick when and where it takes on a role).

There are ways to paint me as scum, but this isn't one of them.

The point absolutely remains, the point being that if thez was actually a Universal Backup, one way or another, he should have been notified that he is now backing something up, which doesn't seem to have occurred. If you think I legitimately believe thez to be scum, what does it matter how I push him unless you want to argue that it's not genuine? (Which you're not)

It's okay though, I know I'm not going to make it through a game with a decent player list without being lynched, I never have, so you might as well get it over with.

....Why would you even remotely point this sort of thing out?? I'm confused as crap about this (bolded and underlined) statement...

If I thought there weren't any reasonable ways to suspect me, I'd be suspicious of everyone who ever attacked me. CTD, for example has made a relatively logical attack that I'm hoping will be proved wrong by other flips soon enough.

wait...

UNVOTE:

Eh, everyone's pretty much been babbling about it without giving a lot of reasons since I argued with B&B 115 pages ago.

I'm a really easy and uncontroversial scumread to have. Need someone to pad your scumlist? Why not Cephrir?

Why?

~Mara

I don't know why, that was my implicit question.

[Cephrir]

Yeah okay you can be off my scumlist again. I'm changing my mind a lot today.

[Cephrir]

Who are you talking to, Cephrir?

- fferyllt

You.

That's not a scumslip. They exist, but the idea gets townies lynched more often than not.

[Cephrir]

But Haylen is the bluescum

Anyway I'm gonna look for connections to thezmon at some point but a cursory glance wasn't *incredibly* revealing.

[Cephrir]

Bacde, STOP Spamming please...
Cephrir, how is Haylen is bluescum? any support reads?

Have you read the thread? It's kind of my thing.

[Cephrir]

Vote: Haylen

I'm just going to keep parking this here until something compels me to drive it elsewhere. Buddy analysis still pending.

[Cephrir]

I'd like Peregrine and Thad to elaborate about their neighborhood QT because as it stands now, wtf is that shit?

[Cephrir]

Okay, I want to hear Nero Cain's Haylen/Rena case. Is it more than just "no scumhunting"?

No, not really. I mean this looks like scum lurking to me. + I like what Cephir pulled up.

You mean Fuzzy liking a cute fox picture?

This is an absurd simplification and blatantly ignores the relevant parts of the case

[Cephrir]

Buddy analysis, part I: thez posts

MAFIA:
[fuzzybutternut,

Oversoul

,

EddieFenix

,

Thor665

, Om The Destroyer, Baby Spice, Hanzo_5]

Oh, and I felt I should address this:

@Thezmon

Your reasonless list is nothing but filler. To paraphrase you, you said "Hey im here and im doing stuff, Im not done yet so it looks like im not doing anything".

Im bringing this to light because I see it as fluff and everyone else should too.

I dont know why your fluffy. But I dont care for it. Your life no linger matters to me. Plz fix that.

It's too bad I don't care. Maybe you should try putting something non-fluff yourself instead of calling out other fluff. My post had more content than yours. Your recent posts don't do much justice for you IME either.

Alright, so now I'm going to wrap up this post with this:
VOTE: fuzzy

I don't like your overall mentality with the game at this point. You've been really dodgy this game. I don't find any value in any of your posts. Your reads are safer than OS's information was. Gut read? Really. Develop something. Try. Have AP Exams? Cool story bro, so do I. In fact, I have an exam on Thursday. You don't see me dodging the game and making useless third-party comments.

I feel fuzzy's gone unnoticed, and you should all notice him through my post. Cephrir's confrontation with him was a start. Oh, and I want a reads list from him too.

Fuzzy isn't in much danger at this point, so entering the game with a vote on him isn't too dangerous if they're buddies. I've been voting him for some time at this point and it's evident that's going nowhere fast. Also, it's not like fuzzy is worth keeping around as a scumbuddy anyway. This scumlist is interesting, and we'll compare it to his final one (after he's clearly getting lynched) later.

PEDIT:

Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

Who is bussing Nacho? If you're saying that the RR wagon is a bus, then we have greatly differing definitions.

He claims the RR wagon isn't a bus... would he do that if he knew it was? I don't know. Though this was a misunderstanding, it's worth noting nonetheless.

Thezmon also rubs me the wrong way. He's all "your points are good, but I need just

a little bit

more to get me to vote him". It feels forced. He hasn't expressed a town read on Nacho, so I don't see why the existing arguments shouldn't be enough to turn him into a scumread. Nor why he's not rereading Nacho himself to figure out if he's a good lynch. Right now it looks like he's just hedging his bets, hesitant to join the major wagon in the game. I did have a scum read on his predecessor which probably makes me biased when it comes to reading his posts, but this looks plainly scummy to me.

One-two viable points and an ass load of meta is not good enough for me. I don't need a "little bit" more, I need a decent amount more.

Sure, I haven't expressed Nacho as a town read, but he isn't necessarily a scum read either. I like my vote where it is right now, and nobody's been able to provide a solid case for me. Bacde has just sputtered out a point periodically among the "VOTE NACHO VOTE NACHO HE'S NOT TOWN HE'S SCUM META META META" crap.

Stand-in for a bunch of posts like this one. thez does a lot of soft-chainsawing of Nacho, like a *lot*. I think this is white-knighting, as the connections between them are too damn easy to draw. But the opposite isn't entirely out of the question.

But a Nero lynch is better. C'mon Nacho.

Have you shown why you think Nero is scum? If so, could you redirect me? If not, could you tell me? It seems like a novel, and maybe slightly random, read.

You know, I was about to really be on board with the Baby Spice lynch. Her post #2197 was truly terrible, as pointed out by Syry. Like, I had written out my vote as well as my reasons for the vote, only to then see her rage-replace vote. However, the frustration she inhibited and her replace out makes me want to wait for penguin to post some stuff for us since we still have a bit under a week.

Now, *this* is how you don't vote for a scumbuddy.

You were a scumread yesterday.

Your Red Ryu interaction analysis feels extremely surface to me

(for example, you have thezmon as null when his one interaction with Ryu, an opportunistic vote on him by Mac, pretty clearly indicates they're not scum together) so I went looking for mentions of Red Ryu in your ISO and you look like a good bet for being his buddy yourself. You started out wavering on him and having him as null, then moved him to "officially scummy" when he started emerging as a counterwagon to Nacho's without contributing your vote (you were sitting alone on B&tB pretty much for the duration). You then gradually shifted him back down your list of suspects (he was a "question mark" among players on Nacho's wagon) for no discernible reason other than he wasn't posting much. In hindsight, you singling him out for "mindless Nacho pushing" bugs even more, because his attack against Nacho was more confusing than anything else in my opinion and only really obvious as a scum play to his scumbuddies.

Exactly what I thought. It sounds like an easy attempt by Cephrir to get some cheap towncred for something that is actually not very beneficial and shows very little ACTUAL depth of analysis.

Bacde just shot up in scumminess with me. His recent push on Nacho is so terrible. Not really sure what the point of him claiming vig is to me. It sounds like a panic and perhaps a cover-up for a tracker seeing him kill someone. It also sounds like another terrible way to frame Nacho in a bad light. Like, seriously. Even if he really is a vigilante, why is he mad at Nacho for the roleblock?

My analysis of RR was pretty surface, but it's interesting nonetheless that his scumbuddy tried to dismiss it and make the idea that my analysis sucked more of a town-wide opinion rather than just CTD's. Perhaps I was onto something after all?

@thez: Do you really think bluescum would bus today? they lost one already and it's multiball.

True, I forgot about that. However Haylen's

death and flip as bluescum

wouldn't clear you as town, mind you.

Oops, that's what it should say.

I've already pointed this out but I may as well point it out again. If you make this slip-up and Haylen isn't your scumbuddy you probably don't care enough to correct it.

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

Reminds me:
What do people (not just KK, but KK can answer too) are the chances that at least one, if not two, of the neighborhoods are town-scum neighborhoods? I personally would say the chances are pretty good.

Oh? Are they?

And Bacde is claiming vig with no kill on the board? I smell bullshit on that one.

He claimed to be RBed by Nacho's party.

Who uses this phrasing if they are a member of Nacho's party?

SCUM:
Haylen
ThAdmiral
Om the Destroyer
Desperado
Cephrir
Amethyst Kitty

At this point thez is pretty clearly going down. penguin_alien has disappeared compared to the original scumlist for no discernible reason. Desp, AK and myself have appeared on it, also for little discernible reason.

And now to comb through everyone else's posts.

[Cephrir]

I'd like Peregrine and Thad to elaborate about their neighborhood QT because as it stands now, wtf is that shit?

Curious. What elaboration would you like?

We're not quoting the thing, so what exactly are you requesting?

I don't understand how a QT that includes ActionDan, lurker extraordinaire, could possibly have convinced you of anything. Like, can you give me a general idea of what makes you view ThAd as basically confirmed? Convince me you aren't one blue and one red who figured out they were both scum and decided to work together, because that's what it sounds like if you won't clarify.

Need to Lynch

Nachomamma8

Willing to Lynch

Haylen
AA9
ThAd

why don't want to lynch me?

bulba, do you have any real case on me? except your only reason is that you don't like my posts?
Despo is ignoring me.. we should lynch him perhaPS!!
Cephrir, this is second time I am asking you to explain how Haylem is blue scum, your just jumped into wagon after stating your suspicious

VOTE: Cephrir

It would have taken you less time to iso me and see the case I've already reposted three times than it would have for you to write this shitty post.

[Cephrir]

No.

[Cephrir]

Actually I just thought of several things you could be talking about so maybe

[Cephrir]

Said while voting for a wagon I started... lol ok

[Cephrir]

Asking for a case isn't scummy, but I could do without the OMGUS that came with it.

[Cephrir]

OGUS slash scare tactics, even.

[Cephrir]

Asking for a case isn't scummy, but I could do without the OMGUS that came with it.

1) Why me = fry me
2) She wasn't asking for a case
3) True that

I'm aware that 1) is a general opinion but I happen to disagree with it.

Good catch on 2354. Yes, she is the last bluescum, that's what I keep trying to tell everyone.

[Cephrir]

Its not omgus if it's true. I've always had a problem with people wanting to lynch others without giving them a chance to defend themselves.

You've had the abridged version of those notes, the majority of it was my distain over B+B's scummy actions.

People who are calling me scum FOR NO OBVIOUS REASON then refusing to state why!!!

Is this really the best we can do on day 3?

Literally ISO me, it's been stated and stated and stated. It even involves your scumbuddy's words, you really should remember that. But I suppose you weren't in the game yet when he said that, soooo.

I mean it happens not to be much you can defend yourself against. fuzzy was scum with RR, both you and fuzzy were scum with thezmon (see my analysis post) and you've done nothing to help your case and are now flailing like it's nobody's business.

[Cephrir]

Heh. Heh. Heh. You want to lynch me cause player interaction? xD

Yep. I find associative tells to be the most useful variety.

Cephir. How do you know how many players are in a scumteam? Btw, I'm ignoring you now because you're tunnelling.

I don't, but two teams of four seems unbalanced. Why, do you know I'm wrong?

Okay, ignore me because you can't rebut my points. Great, you sure are town.

@Bulda: You're missing the point. Of the three posts I quoted, the second is the least relevant. The first and third posts are the important ones (I quoted all three of them mostly because they comprise every time fuzzy ever mentioned Ryu).

[Cephrir]

I've never caught a scum before! It feels awesome! *squeals like a little girl*

[Cephrir]

If we assume thez is aware he's going to be lynched at that point, he might try to distance. Then again, he might realize this and WIFOM. Alternatively, he might include his legitimate guesses at redscum, and remove his scumbuddies since they aren't redscum. So I don't know, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[Cephrir]

I was pointing at the last possibility when I said that though I think

[Cephrir]

Rena is still probably scum but probably won't be lynched today and that makes me sad.

Bacde is not lynchable and you really need to reexamine your life if you want to lynch him.

If I have to pick someone else for blue it will probably be p_a but I have to actually finish ctrl-f'ing through everyone's iso first.

[Cephrir]

I am not reposting it. Your continued insistence that I have something to explain because you're lazy is ridiculous.

[Cephrir]

I mean there's attacking and then there's this.

Seriously, I don't think I've ever seen something that looked less like bussing.

[Cephrir]

I think there is a compelling reason not to do this. Stoppit.

I could be wrong though.

[Cephrir]

Thad isn't DLG, Peregrine is.

Thad is scummy, but I remain pretty sure we shouldn't wagon him. If my suspicion turns out to be wrong, we can lynch the hell out of him, and it looks like we're bent on finding out, so... =/

[Cephrir]

I think there is a compelling reason not to do this. Stoppit.

I could be wrong though.

This is starting to make assumptions that are useless and a little stupid, yet easily exploitable. Don't do this.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing

[Cephrir]

I don't understand how a QT that includes ActionDan, lurker extraordinaire, could possibly have convinced you of anything. Like, can you give me a general idea of what makes you view ThAd as basically confirmed?

QT meta, ActionDan had 10 of the first 15 posts. Suffice to say the interaction and the responses, while not what I would have made, give a strong enough indication of town that I'll say it in the thread- ThAd is town.

Peregrine...you claim that DLG and actiondan confirmed themselves as town before day one started. You are more than capable of paraphrasing how they came to this conclusion. Or maybe you could even offer a hypothetical scenario where this would be possible. Because I'm drawing a blank.

After ActionDan propositioned DLG and DLG, weeping, stated how that love must remain unrequited, they decided that even though there love was never meant to be, at least they shared a win condition. And dammit, that was good enough for them.
Then, I came in, and not to be an ass, I decided that I too, loved Hanzo the mute. Hanzo the mute said nothing, but ThAd came and promised not to screw me over like last time. And dammit, that was good enough for us.
We also chatted somewhat, but let's be honest, we both replaced in 100+ pages, so current events are way more relevant to us at this point.

Okay, these two posts make me think I was wrong and that we should pursue this wagon.

Convince me you aren't one blue and one red who figured out they were both scum and decided to work together, because that's what it sounds like if you won't clarify.

Although not relevant in this game, this sentence fascinates me. Where have you ever seen this occur?

I don't think I actually have, but it sounds really cool.

Since LOL Mafia just finished, and it featured a scumteam of Cephrir and Nachomamma, I would like to hear a detailed analysis by each of them on the other person, especially comparing their play here to their scum play in LoL.

I can probably do that at some point. Honestly, I've thought this whole game that part of the reason Nacho's townreading me when most people aren't is because I'm playing totally differently (and worse) from that game.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: ThAd

[Cephrir]

I'm voting ThAd as much for his overall shitty play as Slandaar's case.

I'd be willing to lynch Seanald by the same token, though ThAd and probably a couple others are better options info-wise today. He certainly can't be allowed to survive the game though.

[Cephrir]

*as much as Slandaar's case

[Cephrir]

Buddy analysis, part deux

Again I'll be ignoring my overall town/scumreads to what extent I can.

CTD- Light suspicion of thezmon early D1 and (lol) said he was "clearly not scum with RR". No conclusion.
Nacho- has thez as 'strong town' early on, later votes him. Could be blue.
PV- nothing
Nero- not much interaction, but among the earliest thez voters. With RR dead, I don't think there's any chance blue would have voted him until his death became inevitable. So I'm giving Nero a free pass.
Bacde- ahahahaha no
Bulb- not much interaction
Desp- big argument with thez + myself about essentially nothing. I don't think thez would have gone this far attacking his scumbuddy.
PA- defended thez after his claim; end of 3279 sounds potentially like someone who helped thez craft his claim (doesn't see the glaring issues with it, possibly wasn't paying attention when thez botched it). Likely partner, because if you're PA, who is widely suspected and grade A useless, if you're scum with only thez, your only play is to try to save him.
Sland- Light scumread on thez eventually, suggests lynching him long before anyone else does, which I would think was possibly safe bussing except he then presents a somewhat compelling if brief argument. Good point wrt those who were on the wagon and got off, I'll keep that in mind.
Sean- nothing, shocker
ThAd- Maybe-fake rage about thez's continued survival (this is after his death is inevitable). Also that one Hanzo post. Analysis today based on the premise that scum must have bussed thezmon is kind of bluey.
Rena- fuzzy and thez has a small but pissy argument about his activity level (frustrated scumbuddy?). Rena asked someone why they were voting thez at one point and then never mentioned him again.
KK- initially hesitant about Bacde's case but ultimately becomes an early voter.
AK- has thez listed as town, but doesn't know why. Not sure I see the scum motivation is jumping on thez then immediately jumping off because they apparently needed to ask me a question.
ffull- effectively an early voter
Om- Defended thez after claim with suggestion that he should live for now. Don't like it.
AA9- suspected thez early; his explosive reaction = not scumbuddies.

Likely thezmon buddies

p_a
ThAd
Om
Nacho
Rena

Unlikely

Bacde
Desperado
KK
AA9
ffull
Nero

No conclusion

CTD
PV
Bulb
Sland
Sean
AK

Considering thezmon's posts and both of my blue lists, I conclude that the most likely blue scum are Rena, Penguin, Om, ThAd and Slandaar.
Bacde, Nero, Kublai and AA9 are pretty much clear of being blue in my book.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, how likely is it that Rena is blue scum who claimed Watcher while on a team with Red Ryu? It seems massively improbable to me, especially given that no one's CC'd her.

I think this is entirely possible, actually. I'm sure she probably does have a watcher ability, but this doesn't preclude her from being blue scum (there could be a town tracker, or even a watcher who thinks 2 town watchers is possible).

I'm also not seeing what Om would have to gain by arguing for thez's survival for another night if he knew the claim was false unless scum has a protective role.

Theoretically, he would have known that the vig probably wouldn't actually listen to him. It's a little bit of a longshot though. I don't suspect Om anyway, independently.

As far as ThAd and Slandaar go, Slandaar seems to be trying to make a case for ThAd being red scum on a day where it sounds like consensus is that we want to lynch the potentially last blue scum. Given that you're showing where ThAd could be blue, I don't know why bluescum-Slandaar wouldn't go with that slant on the analysis.

That's kind of an okay point. Except for the possibility that Slan is focusing on hunting redscum because he's blue, but still, maybe.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, did you look at Mac's portion of the game at all in your buddy analysis (both Mac's play and interactions with him)?

I ctrl-f'd him on some of my stronger suspects and didn't turn anything up. All Mac ever did, as I pointed out before, was vote for RR.

[Cephrir]

I'm saying that I did consider it, not that I just did that now, in case that wasn't clear.

[Cephrir]

Scumreading AK but I have better ideas.

Unvote, Vote: penguin_alien

[mastin2]

Scumreading AK but I have better ideas.

Unvote, Vote: penguin_alien

Sure side-line your vote and then when the time is right (when the wagon grows higher and higher) you'll vote us.

I'm putting my vote where I honestly want it, but yeah, I'm probably going to wind up voting you since I didn't get any traction. Is that a problem?Preview: It helps.

<<< For the record, I'll generally fix for you any broken quote tags I catch, so there's generally not a need to repost the message with fixed quote tags unless you screwed them up so badly that I can't tell how to fix them. Original post with the broken tags has been deleted. >>>

[Cephrir]

Actually, why are we voting AK given that if they are indeed scum there isn't a ton of evidence suggesting they're blue?