NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Nachomamma8]

/confirm

[Nachomamma8]

I'll be in here when the game ACTUALLY starts.

[Nachomamma8]

I FORGOT ABOUT HIM
WE WILL

[Nachomamma8]

Current townreads are here:
3. Cephir
5. DLG
7. roflcopter
10. Thor665
11. Red Ryu
18. ActionDan
19. fuzzybutternut
22. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy+pirate mollie)
24. ArcAngel9

[Nachomamma8]

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, don't be so blind

All your claim amounts to is a useless role. I can easily see that there are two killing roles in the game after the first night, after there are two kills. Meanwhile, your claim is pretty great for an SK because nobody in their right mind will shoot you. Why didn't you wait until night to claim?

[Nachomamma8]

I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.

That's not why you claimed, now is it?

And why wouldn't anyone shoot me?

Why would anyone want to protect me? I'm not exactly useful anymore.

No would want to shoot you because you are useless. You don't need protection because you won't be shot.

Also I think the operative word is *at least*

It doesn't say for a fact that there are only 2 killing roles in the game

I know. That doesn't change I will probably know how many killing roles are in the game by Day 2.

[Nachomamma8]

I agree with a D1 massclaim here.

[Nachomamma8]

And we're starting with the informed townie.

[Nachomamma8]

I am dumb, present, and currently busy, which means I will not be able to re-read this thread until late tonight at the earliest.

Can anyone summarize the proceedings thus far?

Oversoul claimed an informed townie with useless information, got called out on it, said he had more information.
Otherwise, we're talking about a massclaim.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, not mass-claiming. Sorry. I've had some bad experiences with mass claims in games, and every time it led to a scum victory, because the game became less about scum hunting and scum tells and more about what was probable. It also puts our PRs in harms way. I'd rather catch scum the old fashioned way while the PRs do their job in secret, until they feel it is in the best interest of the town to out themselves. So sorry, not claiming. Deal with it.

Some bad experiences with massclaims in games? Link them. Just because you had massclaims do bad things in other places doesn't mean they will here. Meanwhile, the preference for the "old-fashioned" way seems like nothing more than preference. We're still catching them the old-fashioned way, we just have a little more information to work with.

[Nachomamma8]

Amurika Mafia: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25487

In AMURIKA, massclaiming did only good things for you guys. If you allowed Gorgon and Peregrine to have a little more time before claiming, Peregrine would've had a Public Investigator claim which would've pretty much took away all chance of him being lynched ever. In True Love, that's a different mechanic. We're not claiming lovers, we're claiming roles.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: But the massclaim in Amurika also allowed Peregrine to escape being lynched for 2 days, because he wrote off any reason given as having to do with his name claim. He made it to Lylo because the claim gave him cover. The role and name claims became a distraction more than a help, and scum, especially Peregrine, were able to get farther than they should.

But that ended up happening because you guys started playing the "oh, I don't think he's scum because his name fits" game. We have no names to worry about here.

Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?

They aren't, necessarily. I became a little more favorable to massclaims with possible SKs after how that game turned out, though, but I've always been a fan of them as I said several times. I just didn't want to massclaim when I already had several strong scum suspects that were probably going to get lynched.

This activity from HD makes me think he is town.

That's stupid.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?

what are you even talking about here

Reference to an old game.

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?
B&B, the skull stands for Destroyer.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?

what are you even talking about here

Reference to an old game.

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?
B&B, the skull stands for Destroyer.

okay.

why are you telling me what the skull stands for

For some reason I thought you were the one who got them confused.

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?

[Nachomamma8]

[

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?

Yes, I will not claim as part of a massclaim. I seriously hate it that much. I understand that I may die because of it (see Newbie 1337), but at least that leaves something secret and unknown to scum (Tracey was right in this regard, and she should not have claimed during Amurika Mafia.).

But leaving things secret in a massclaim is not that important, especially so early on. Scum won't care about your role when they have plenty of other power roles to go through; meanwhile, the scum we can catch will be hiding behind your refusal. It doesn't help anyone if you refuse to massclaim but don't stop the massclaim; in fact, that's pretty much the most anti-town way you can respond to the plan.

[Nachomamma8]

What constitutes a majority? I can already see having like 6/7 stalwarts and then the rest claiming essentially pushing those stalwarts to claim simply because it started

We won't start claiming until a majority agrees with it. If you would like, we can simply remove an equal number of stalwarts from each side, and majority of the players remaining decide. Slandaar, why don't you want to massclaim?

[Nachomamma8]

Majiffy, let's talk about massclaim.

[Nachomamma8]

Lets not and forget that you're even supporting such a god awful idea.

Why is it awful?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think it's a bad idea to start a massclaim early, get players with good synergy to get working with each other, get a little info from PRs, catch one or two free scum, dominate.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like the idea of mass claiming. I rather not at least not on Day1.

Why not?

HD, Mollie is town, so you'll have to put up with Majiffy.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm telling you that one head of the hydra is dropping towntells that I am 90% confident about. This means you can either ignore my opinion on someone I clearly know better than you (since even a cursory meta look will see that yeah, Majiffy rarely explains his reads), or you can waste that vote for however more pages you keep it there.

[Nachomamma8]

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

Bad claim? Yes.

Was it scummy in itself? No.

It was scummy in itself because that role would never exist. Now he's scummy for other reasons, but the claim still sucks.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm catching up via phone but your saying informed townie can't exist? I've seen this role and been it, why can't he be one. You seem dead certain he can't without asking a single question about his role.

Informed townie where the piece of information given is "there are at least two killing roles" doesn't exist because it's completely fucking useless information. I seriously doubt that it would be involved in any information he was given, but am not sure.

If he is scummy for other reasons tell me why?

Later.

[Nachomamma8]

"confirmed scum"...why?

Because you're not confirmed scum. That was rhetoric.

[Nachomamma8]

"confirmed scum"...why?

Because you're not confirmed scum. That was rhetoric.

Majiffy can answer for himself, Nacho.
That still doesn't explain his failure to push his apparently preferred Ceph wagon in any sort of productive way so yeah.

~

His playstyle does though!

VOTE: nachomamma8

classic.

hey there
don't vote B&B please

[Nachomamma8]

Wow... That was A LOT to catch up on. But, after catching up

Vote B&B

if oversoul is scum, this dies instantly

[Nachomamma8]

Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.

No, it isn't SINCE WE WOULD KNOW BY DAY 2.

Spoiler: <<<Mod-edited-in-votecount>>>

BeautyAndTheBeast - 4 (Om the Destroyer, Cephrir, Bacde, EddieFenix)

Oversoul - 3 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie, Bulbazak)

Cephrir - 2 (BeautyAndTheBeast, fuzzybutternut)
Red Ryu - 1 (Oversoul)
EddieFenix - 1 (Nero Cain)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Red Ryu)

Not Voting - 12 (Mac, DLG, Thor665, Syryana, Desperado, Baby Spice, Slandaar, Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, Amethyst Kitty, ArcAngel9)

With 24 players alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

So a doctor wouldn't stop a kill? A poisoner is out of the question. People might opt to not shoot? These abilities might be one shot?

He specifically said roles so I wanted to ask again what that ment paraphrased since that info may or may not count mafia/ other things depending jow it was worded.

What's more you show knowledge you already know something about this situation. Wether he is lying or telling the truth.

Doctor probably doesn't get a successful protect in a 24 person game N1 unless scum are incompetent or extremely unlucky. Poisoner? Yeah, no. People might opt not to shoot? Most one-shot vigs shoot the first night, and people not shooting is an assumption that isn't likely, sorry.

[Nachomamma8]

His info legit tells us either how many bad guys out there can kill/factions Indy, or he is teillng is about town.

he's telling us there's either two scum teams, scum and a vig, scum and an SK. I could make that assumption about a 24 player normal game pretty easily. 6/7 of the last completed large normals had a vig in some form, and the one that didn't only had 16 players, soooo.

[Nachomamma8]

Your assuming again and showboat foresight that you even considered that he was town.

If I lynch him, it will be on his play today not his role.

This game constantly requires us to take leaps of faith and assume things. When you play, you assume there is a way to distinguish whether someone gets a role PM that says "you win with town" from "you win with scum". You assume that if you find scum, you will be able to convince people to get them lynched. You assume scum will do this, you assume that people will do that, you assume that this game is possible for your side to win. You back up these assumptions with evidence. I making an assumption about the setup that SHOULD be obvious to most of you, Oversoul is claiming something that is completely useless to us. What use is a role whose information will be revealed by Day 2 (or even by Day 3 if someone gets lucky)?

[Nachomamma8]

are we just lynching OS because its OS or is there a better reason?

There's a better reason.

Walk me through why you think Oversoul would throw out such a silly and useless claim as scum.

I don't really think he thought it was silly and useless at the time. I think he thought that it was a believable sounding claim that would grab him a little bit of towncred early, prevents him from getting targetted by

most

power roles if he pulls it off, and it doesn't automatically sound like a scum fakeclaim like miller/PGO.

Also, why'd you have the early Town read on ArcAngel9, and is that still where you're at on her?

I have the early town read on ArcAngel because she's been fairly genuine so far. She's usually pretty detached as scum, picks her fights carefully, falls behind and play perpetual underwhelming catchup. It's usually page 20 or so, but she's not showing her usual scum signs quite yet.

help me sort out eddie and mac

Mac seems fine.

hey look!! A deflection.

Nero, that point was pretty stupid.

'cause technically 3rd party are still scum

technically "scum" is mafia slang, if there is such a thing.

1) I realize that
2) why did you answer for Nero?
3) confused as to how Beast made any distinction... That was Nero. They just called him SK essentially

Nero, I repeat my question... Hopefully with more clarification.
What was your motivation in changing scum to Mafia? They are the same thing essentially and your point wasn't lost when you used the word scum.

pedit: hmm... Ok.

Why did you skip everything you missed?

[Nachomamma8]

Why is this a bad/stupid point, Nacho?

I guess I'll let mollie answer your question first.

[Nachomamma8]

So Mollie, why did you call me a 3rd party?

Now I ask why you care about her specific reasoning as to why you are a third party. The scumtell should be that she's looking for third party, not that you're checking for valid reasoning or not.

[Nachomamma8]

why did you care about her reasoning?

[Nachomamma8]

but if she did have a decent reason she wasn't...?
she just found you?

[Nachomamma8]

I mean really, its like the first thing anyone would do is ask why a player said that. Bcade is probs right that Nacho is scum.

when people call me third party, i call them scum unless they have a penchant for the thing, like most normal people.

[Nachomamma8]

So you're saying that you would think a player was scum if they called you the sk without a strong/good reasoning. Wich is exactly what I said a few posts ago....

I'm saying that I would think a player is scum if they called me the SK unless they are known for oddly calling players third party.

[Nachomamma8]

although I really think we should be voting thor

mollie...

[Nachomamma8]

please stop letting nero troll you, jesus

[Nachomamma8]

hell no, i'm still revelling in that. I'm gonna post in other games first tho.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho is a read we both share, neither of us like the mass-claim and neither of us like his push on OS who we both think is probably town.

I figured that he was lying, so I pushed him for it. The massclaim idea you might not like, but I don't really see how that makes me scum.

though I have quite a fair amount of reason for Nacho-scum

I've heard "massclaim, summary, OS is town". That's about it.

Hey Nacho, thoughts on Cehprir?

I don't like the way he's responding so far, but I'm still waiting for the wheels to turn a little more before I give a solid read on him.

I'm actually down to lynch nacho

this feels like scum-nacho to me

(how was that as a contribution?)

You got me all excited when you said you were gonna provide reasoning later...

town-nacho would not have tunneled this idiotic OS case for this long

but its the perfect case for him to push as scum

It's also a good case to push as town, considering he was lying and it's a shitty gambit as town.

pfft. Nacho badgering mover asking why Mollie called me an "indie" is just retarded and scummy. That's all that needs to be said.

Why?

VOTE: Bulb
Sheeping. Etc.

Hey fuzzy, nice of you to join us? Where have you been?

People should put more votes on Nacho.

Red Ryu! Why didn't you like my observations on Oversoul?

I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

Why did you think that anyone would jump down your throat to get you lynched for it?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho did you know what CTD was doing?

I knew that he proposed a D1 massclaim every game.

Nacho, thoughts on Ryu and DLG?

Ryu seems scummier lately, but DLG is still clean.

People really just like wagoning me for whatever reason. I don't think I've ever gone through a game where people have not either wagoned me or suspected me for a long period of time.

When I do strange things I usually get wagoned, see AFFC where I mixed up my role PM, see 90s Cartoon Mafia where I did another gambit, see First Time Mafia where people did not necessarily wagon me for my gambit claim, but they did announce suspicion.

It isn't a tell in that "if a player gambits, they will be voted" but more so "if Oversoul does something strange, he will be voted".

I will try to give reads on the people who reacted for those who asked, but don't expect them to be timely. Also expect that post to be long.

So you did something weird so you would be wagonned, so people would attack you. Even though you thought this would happen anyway?

@Nacho no its not a shitty gambit to do as town, if he is actually informed then its helpful for him to reveal his information ASAP. Also my reasoning is pretty much that your play in this game isn't your town play. Thats it.

1. He's not informed. The information he provided was useless.
2. You can't just say that this isn't my town play when you don't really know what the difference between my town play and scum play is.

Nacho has been tunneling a read and shown he has never tried to read into intent, he has shown he wants a lynch.

You still aren't answering my question.

Eddie and Slandaar and Oversoul seriously wtf?

I'm trying to move this game in a direction and you three are being deliberately anti-town by not even responding to my strong assertion I made just 4 posts ago

guys bc is right. this is scum nacho we are seeing

VOTE: nacho

Really.

Nacho claimed he was gonna lynch Oversoul because on the sole fact, he claimed informed townie and said there were two killing roles in them game.

He said the information was not possible and useless.

It should be quite the opposite, but if the possibility of him thinking this as town and just focusing hard on this is up think again.

I noticed that Oversoul was lying. I pushed him for a lynch on the basis that he was lying about his role, I could see why he would want to claim it as scum, and I couldn't see why he wanted to claim it as town.

when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate,

I gathered his information was not legitimate because it was essentially useless. That was not really that difficult to do. Then, when it comes to light that the information was useless, you... keep pushing me. Because I didn't consider the possibility of him telling the truth. Even though he wasn't.

hey nacho there is this game you are ignoring

Not this one!

Right. You on the Nacho wagon, then? Otherwise, get on it. He's been deliberately avoiding this thread; posting elsewhere and didn't even bother to check in here.

Majiffy.

I'm starting to come around somewhat just based on the avoiding the thread thing. That's the only thing though.

I haven't been avoiding the thread. I wasn't around for a little while, had to play catchup elsewhere. So I saved this one for last considering there was a lot of reading to do but it's still Day 1 here.

[Nachomamma8]

Mafia would not figure that info out on D1 off their size when they lack to knowledge of what town has.

We could try and piece it by D3, but we still could lack info on how kills work, what if they are alternating with opposite scum teams, one gets it on odd night, the other on even nights? What if some of these were town one shots? We don't know this til claims and flip roll around. Off how many people die is not a surefire tell.

Mafia would figure out if there were two teams D1 based on size unless the teams are very uneven, which is unlikely because this is a normal game and not a theme game where powers are a lot better than numbers. We could probably piece it together on D2; town one shots don't really matter much since vigs usually use their shots early. If the only information an informed townie has is "there are at least two killing roles" and the other killing role is a town one-shot, then that information doesn't really help us much except to confirm the one-shot vig if the kill doesn't go through, which is unlikely unless he's an idiot. We don't KNOW for sure by Day 2, but 9 times out of 10 we can take a damn good guess, and we don't really need an informed townie to tell us that we're correct. That was my logic for pushing Oversoul; I knew he was lying, and, because I saw that it had more scum motivation than town motivation, I pushed him for it.

I don't even know why you think that I'm mafia for seeing through a fakeclaim and pushing someone for it; acceptable town responses are to monitor, or to put him under pressure to see how, if at all, he decides to retract his fakeclaim. In this case, Oversoul said "oh yeah it was a gambit that I did because people attack me when I do weird things" or some shit like that, so yes, I am a little hesitant to back down when until recently everything he has posted has had to do with reactions from his gambit that he hasn't really talked about or who's ignoring massclaim or gambit claim, which, if we're talking about "mechanical and fake", then Oversoul's analysis of things definitely seems like both of those.

There's this:

My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and unfortunately only a handful of players did.

Where "reactions" isn't really that good of a reason. Why informed townie? When

did

you decide to claim informed townie?

[Nachomamma8]

Bacde I don't even have any sass for you because you're playing perfectly fine.

he has only been scum in one game with me on this site and he did do a little bit of lurking until I called him out on it. the relative tell that bc gave is better indication of alignment cos I have seen him get lurky as town too but that was a newbie game that I subbed into.

Do you remember Inheritance? This is the scum ISO you called me out on. What you're seeing now is a completely different kind of lurking because I've put out more content than most of the people on my wagon. When I'm done here, I'll probably put out more content than any other person in the game. This is a Mastin game, after all.

[Nachomamma8]

Then there's things about me pushing massclaim on D1, which makes me scum because I don't support it usually, apparently.
I usually avoid threads as scum for a reason. One of the reasons why I would avoid this thread is because I was catching up in other threads, not that the case against me in this one was overwhelming and I couldn't stop in to say "nope, you're wrong."

Nero:

Nacho badgering mover asking why Mollie called me an "indie" is just retarded and scummy.

you questioned reasoning and legitimate reasoning for someone being a third party doesn't change the fact that they are looking for third party
but you apparently still can't see that

[Nachomamma8]

Yes, she's looking for third party. Like she looks for power roles too!

[Nachomamma8]

Still no reason to attack me.

Still no reason for her to attack you? No, it isn't. But it's what she does.

I'm relatively certain that in politics mafia I called Nacho out on ignoring that game and posting elsewhere much like she was doing yesterday.

ISO from Politics Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
I feel like I'm defending myself from kindergartners sometimes.

[Nachomamma8]

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

If you can get the majority of the playerlist to lynch me out of spite, maybe. Otherwise you might need something real to kill me.

[Nachomamma8]

if you think that I'm scummy for attacking dumb as rocks Mollie

if the conditional is wrong, do I have to answer the rest of the question?

[Nachomamma8]

^^^ THIS IS WHAT YOU LEFT ME ALONE WITH YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF

sheeping nero let's see what this does

VOTE: nacho

Eddie and Slandaar and Oversoul seriously wtf?

I'm trying to move this game in a direction and you three are being deliberately anti-town by not even responding to my strong assertion I made just 4 posts ago

guys bc is right. this is scum nacho we are seeing

VOTE: nacho

somehow i'm not even a little bit ashamed

[Nachomamma8]

if thor-me-majiffy-mollie was a scumteam, we probably would've policy lynched you for laughs by now.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, why is it such a ridiculous claim for me to be able to tell the difference between your town play and your scum play?

nacho is scum

Nacho, what do you think of Red Ryu?

He keeps claiming that Oversoul's information *isn't* useless, and Mafia wouldn't know these things on D1 and it would be so incredibly difficult to find out if there were at least two killers by D2, and that makes me scum, despite Oversoul outing that his information was fake later. I have no idea where he's coming from at the moment, but I'm going to do a deeper read in a second so I'll be able to tell you after.

[Nachomamma8]

Mac seems town so far. There's not a whole lot pointing either way, but I like his interactions with fuzzy so far; fuzzy is a player that's pretty hard to nail down, and Mac has been aggressively attacking him, trying to get something out of it. I also thought the point made in #746 was pretty good.

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

Cephrir's sort of gotten railroaded into defending me a couple of times, but has maintained sufficient paranoia of me the entire game. I like that because it weakens the wagon and weakens the claim on the wagon, but doesn't mean that he actually gains any cred for defending me. His attack on Thor for being overaggressive seemed a little strange, but it was a fair attack considering his mindset, and his progression from Thor to Oversoul was pretty genuine. His mid-back off from B&B seemed fairly town motivated; he was comfortable in arguing with them, but held back a little when the argument pretty much became a semantics fight. His response to B&B accusing him of having unexplained townreads was the reads list in #797, which is a fitting response to the interaction and seemed more like a "screw you" townie response than scum under pressure in the least bit, considering he wasn't under a lot of pressure and could've easily dismissed B&B or bought time by telling them to explain townreads first. Overall, fairly town.

DLG asking me if I still had an early townread on Arc before voting her was sort of strange. It was an early vote and he didn't really have any other suspects, so seeking my approval before making a vote, whether he has me as a townread or not, seems like excessive caution. The attack on ArcAngel lacked a lot as well; I don't mind attacks on someone for not scumhunting, but attacking her for spending no time to seek reasons behind why massclaim is a bad idea, or attacking her because she's posting nothing more than a compliment to the mod... that seems pretty opportunistic. His townreads disappearing on B&B and I seem like they are going away for trivial reasons, but worse is the Bulbazak scumread which comes out of nowhere that he never explains. CTD has a really good point about at the bottom of #957.

Nero Cain is trolling most of the time. Then he latched onto the third party thing, then he made fun of mollie, then he tried to bring as much attention to the situation as possible. It doesn't really seem like a particular strong scum strategy, but I sort of liked that he made an attempt to read the people he was pushing policy lynches on and is pushing a real life scumread instead of the people he generally finds scummy anyways. Town.

I seem to be pretty good at reading Bacde most days. He's probably town again.

[Nachomamma8]

nacho do you have any scumreads?

DLG is a scumread.

[Nachomamma8]

how clever do you think Oversoul is exactly? Because it sounds like you caught him in a bad claim that would, by definition, require a large amount of cleverness to pull off. Functionally I feel like you're calling him clever and dumb scum both at the same time and applying both tells to him - thoughts?

He's clever, but sometimes lacks foresight.

[Nachomamma8]

Maybe if you catch up all the way and still think he is scum.
We're both a little behind, so sheeping each other turns into the blind leading the blind.

[Nachomamma8]

No, it's not my only one, but I'm going through the game at the moment. If you want full reads, you're gonna have to wait a little while.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh, that's a little rich coming from you, but then maybe I shouldn't bring up other games.

Still, seriously, what even is your case on him? Because it looks really weak at this stage and well past the point of being a test if you're still derping around on it.

Still catching up, not actively pushing a scumread right now. But I'm saying that I'm not going to sheep until you're caught up, which is sort of reasonable, no?

pushing a shitty case that he should know better than to push

He was lying. I pushed him for lying, and allowed things to develop in the meantime. I have explained this many times.

Nacho wouldn't tell me that my play is "good" in this game if I was tunneling on him-town (yet he did).

I said it was "fine", as in I'm not going to yell at you.

Nacho is scum trying to push an idea he thinks will help his team.

Read my reasons for massclaiming.

my case on nacho is 1000x stronger than my case on you

1000 times 0 still equals zero.

[Nachomamma8]

Eddie, if scum, has done a great job of working under pressure. Whenever people have called him scum, he has dismissed them pretty easily. And, while he doesn't post often, he doesn't mind dancing with people if he wants to (see: Bulbazak), and even his hop on me recently is consistent with his reads, so I don't really have too much problem with it. I like the aggression he's had, and I like the transitions from vote to vote. Probably town.

Bulbazak, probably town, waste of ISO time.

Thor I will probably look into a little more when he is caught up all the way and ~later~, but I like most of what I see so far, I don't really think he would decide to approach the game in the way that he is if he was scum. But that's an assumption that has burned me in the past, so it doesn't mean too much.

[Nachomamma8]

Red Ryu's logic in voting me is... weird, but the rest of his posting isn't that bad. The way he's posting the case on me with the whole "he deliberately refused to even consider OS as town", frustration when arguing with Bulbazak, seems fairly genuine, especially since he continues to push me after Oversoul outed as a liar. I don't like how he's so completely and thoroughly tunneling on me in a way similar to Bacde; I would like him to give reads on other people as well.

Syryana read isn't so developed yet, although if I was forced to make a call, I'd lean town. I think that the waffling on me midgame after buddying me so hard was fairly genuine, though; it seems like a waste to butter me up so much and then stab me in the back three posts later if his aim was to get me on his side.

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

I don't understand why it took Slandaar so long to start attacking me based on massclaim discrepancies, considering he brought it up early then sort of postured for a while, then jumped on my wagon when it started to gain momentum. His posting elsewhere has been just weak as shit; he's thrown out a few random reads, but he took FOREVER to vote for some reason and he's probably scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Oversoul's gambit is weak, if nothing else. I want to know when he came up with the gambit in the first place, and what information he thought he could get out of it. To his credit, #1058 looks like he's trying to get information out of it whereas as scum I think he would be eager to show that he got A TON OF STUFF OUT OF IT, so I sort of like that. I don't like that his play when he was claiming informed townie was completely devoid of anything interesting, and the only major analysis post he made was still more lacking than it should be. But, I think that the way he fakeclaimed showed more of a town mindset than a scum mindset; he wasn't afraid to avoid questions and be a little scummy for a little while initially because he wanted to get more information, while delaying the out as scum in the way he did would only gain him more heat. So he's a townread.

I'd lynch the shit out of Seanald. Anytime, anyplace.

ActionDan is lurking even harder than usual, but I sort of liked his play during the pregame? Still need more for sure for sure.

Fuzzy shows small signs of towniness. His read on Bacde seems like something that's probably not a scumread, but I have no idea yet.

Rondar flaking.

AK, B&B, Om all town for meta reasons, although Om is the weakest on that call due to hydra style changes.

Arc is probably town for meta reasons as well, although I need to verify something before that can be a sure call.

[Nachomamma8]

So far I'm looking at something like a DLG-Desperado-Slandaar-Baby Spice + lurkers, which doesn't really feel that right but it's a good place to start. I actually like the reasoning on Desperado being scum the best.

Vote: Desperado

[Nachomamma8]

You can't call it shallow or pedantic because you didn't read it. It's also not that difficult to read if you're wondering about a specific read and not trying to read the entire thing at once.

[Nachomamma8]

I know you didn't read it because you didn't post the keyword in your post, and you didn't mention anything about a keyword in your post.

[Nachomamma8]

I gave you a chance to show you are town if you were; my case doesn't weaken if I leave it for a while during which time I can see how you act which would perhaps add to the case or perhaps I would decide you were town who just radically changed their views in such a short period (very unlikely but it wasn't impossible)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=26864
This got me thinking about a lot of game theory points, and my opinions have changed quite a bit. Pushing as hard as I did for massclaim also had the added bonus of getting reactions to the idea of massclaim, and forcing Oversoul to either out as gambit or make up some more things before he was comfortable doing so was a large advantage for me.

Which of your posting is better than mine? Enlighten me.

My posting which talks about more than one person, mostly.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

Because your "information" wouldn't have any significant effect on the game, so it made no sense to add from a setup spec POV.

[Nachomamma8]

Because your "information" wouldn't have any significant effect on the game, so it made no sense to add from a setup spec POV.

If you thought OS was lying, why were you so intent on forcing him to out that he was lying?

Would it have been impossible for him to make this gambit as town?

No, but the gambit was useless as town and so it was more useful to push him to reveal that he was lying and make him feel uncomfortable while he was doing it.

@Nacho what is your read on Slandaar?

Scum, but not confident whatsoever in the read at all.

[Nachomamma8]

And sometimes as town when my thoughts aren't pretty.

[Nachomamma8]

So you never actually wanted a massclaim? It was just something you were pushing to pressure OS?

Also, why did you lie about having a "keyword" or something in your post

No, I wanted to massclaim, but the pressure was a nice bonus.
I lied about having a keyword in my post so I could make sure you actually read it. Not that I don't trust you, but, you know.

[Nachomamma8]

Desperado, DLG, Baby Spice.

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25367

Meta her yourself. You'll see things a lot more clearly if you do that instead of having someone try to explain it for you.

[Nachomamma8]

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything, and the constant complaining about walls is scummy considering she's not commenting on anything in the entire game and blaming it solely on walls.

[Nachomamma8]

But that's pretty much the entirety of that read, just watch her and see where she goes.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho what is your read on AA9?

Town.

Nacho, why were you arguing with me about questioning Mollie if you read me as town?

Because I wanted to see if you were familiar with mollie's tendency to hunt third parties and scumhunting based on that knowledge because that would have been a super towntell.

[Nachomamma8]

Desperado would be the only scum on my wagon if Slandaar isn't also scum. AA9 is town because of meta for the moment. I'm not going to sell you on her being town because she's easier to read when pressured.

[Nachomamma8]

41 pages already..?
i am less then two days behind and i have hell to catch up again!!!!
Slow down ladies...

ok AA9 is scum too guys plz lynch this after we lynch scum nacho and then I get NKed for being too awesome

What? cmon Bcade, aren't you better player than this.. This is seriously low of you..even if you're scum.

This doesn't seem like a scumAngel post no matter what angle I look at it from.

[Nachomamma8]

can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I might be different, but I focus a hell of a lot closer on suspect's posting than everyone else, and reading DGB's post would take a little longer than that for me. I guess what I found strange was not that you read it that quickly, but that you read it that quickly AND decided you didn't see anything worth commenting on in that chunk.

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

I question his current vote, not just because it's on someone I read as town and unlikely to lead anywhere, but also because there's a good wagon waiting to happen on his second choice, DLG.

I think that DLG and Desp are unlikely partners at this point, so I'd rather take care of the stronger scumread first.

and what is practically a billboard is his hedge on spice girl; he should be all over that shit cos those are the kind of things he tries to push for in a lynch. spice girl is doing the same thing that a player in another game did and he was all over her (KISS) and he was correct for being so. so it makes me think there is a spice girl/nacho association in there somehow, not sure what to make of it. especially since she beetlejuiced him into the thread. it almost read like a "hey buddy if you keep avoiding the thread you are going to get lynched so get in here!" call out.

You're right about me not picking up on the Baby Spice read harder than I should have been.

town nacho has yet to reach out to me and this is something that town nacho usually does even if it is to just say "hey mollie I am town now stfu and stop being difficult"

You're not being difficult this game.

Have you ever played with nacho before? He's not a useless player

There's a reason he's playing the way he's playing this game--he's scum

Useless is not the word for it.

Nacho, why did you post 5 analyses, and then wait another... 26-27 hours before posting the rest?

My laptop broke and I'm forced to play mafia in a public library. I got kicked out.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, Bacde, I'm not screaming at you guys for being idiots this game because you do have a point because I'm not exactly happy with my reads yet. It's not that I'm lacking motivation for this game and it isn't that I'm being useless (that's bullshit, Bacde), but I definitely am not being as aggressive and on point this game because I just don't have things worked out yet. I have a pretty good scumread in Desperado, a pretty decent town core, but I don't feel comfortable with the game to the point that I usually do. Although, Bacde:

if nacho flips town you are suspect #1

If I flip town, you're living in my scumlist for a while. You owe me that much.

[Nachomamma8]

Will you?

[Nachomamma8]

That's fucking stupid. I want you to follow my reads.

[Nachomamma8]

How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).

"I think we should call this guy scum."
"No, we should call this guy scum!"
"No, no, that's stupid. We need to attack this guy!"
>.>

[Nachomamma8]

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Pride.

[Nachomamma8]

So why is it ok for you to call out Baby Spice's townreads for being weak, but when I call out DLG's townreads for being weak, he's still scumhunting and I'm scummy for it?

I thought that DLG was at least pretending to scumhunt. I think Baby Spice is pretending to scumhunt.
Why is this a question? If I say that your specific accusation in regards to player A is bad, that doesn't mean that the specific accusation is a bad one.

Did you see anything worth commenting on? It was more of the same from my point of view, which I think was pretty clearly expressed in what I said.

I didn't, but I probably would if I just made a case on him.

If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

It wasn't his case on DLG alone. He's pushed DLG in a way that's better than the way you pushed it. Reads are much more than one case. Stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

People are stretching in their arguments, so you don't look at what they are posting but instead just say that the argument is "town v town"? You can do better than this.

Nacho isn't playing to "out his reads" or "find scum" this game, he's manipulating people (and he can do it with one word even as shown w/ the pride post)

Talking back =/= manipulation. If it's not pride, then why would you want to be lynched the next day? You obviously wouldn't. You're using rhetoric.

If he wants me to follow his reads, why isn't he pushing them harder? If he wants me to follow his reads, why does he keep saying to me "No you have a point I haven't been playing as well as I'd like this game"

When I'm not pushing reads, they are not fully developed. Hence me saying that you have a point.

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

Very nice posture.

I think I may actually be coming around on Nacho. His insistence on voting Desperado is terrible. Desperado has rightfully pointed out that parts of his case are factually incorrect and what's left is awfully weak. It's hard for me to swallow that this is Nacho's strongest read to the point where he's unwilling to compromise on a secondary suspect.

It surprises me that you take so much issue with me voting Desperado above DLG. I'm sorting Desperado out because I don't think he's DLG's scumbuddy and he is the stronger read. It doesn't mean that I'm unwilling to compromise; that's a misrep. Why do you take so much issue with it?

So Ryu is being a punk and being owned by real life so I am just going to post it..

Why didn't you post this earlier? Or mention that you were waiting on Ryu? Or do anything in the meantime?

I wanted to vote Nacho when you said, especially after Slandaar posted his reasoning for Nacho scum, but I wanted to see if Ryu would continue down his path of "why are you voting me" since he hasn't even really played the game since then

VOTE: Nacho

Oh look, another scum joins my wagon.

If I am lynched I am putting you in my scumlist, you owe me that.

Bzzt. If I am lynched, you better follow the shit out of my scumlist and not AtE, you owe me that much.

[Nachomamma8]

All while I've been getting wagoned to hell, what has Desperado been doing? Responding to my case on him, not really pushing anything else. His activity is literally linked to mine; he waits for me to post, then he responds. Even the way he's been defending recently is scummy as fuck... all he's doing is trying to get the case on himself to go away by comparing parts of my case to other people. There are tiny little potshots everywhere else, nothing significant. I also like him so casually dismissing DLG's quadpost. He said that he didn't find anything interesting, but he could've easily followed up on the reads that DLG gave in those posts (which included him in his scum list), but instead he said nothing.

Slandaar is also chilling on my wagon scummy as fuck, potshot here, potshot there, empty reads list.

I'm thinking DLG is town because Desp is scummy as fuck and he just sort of lurked out in a really quiet way. He needs replacement like a motherfucker though and I find it sort of suspicious that CTD forgot to check up on his top suspect for over a week?

[Nachomamma8]

What do you think of Desperado?

[Nachomamma8]

Why aren't you putting that much effort into this game specifically?

[Nachomamma8]

I was saying it's *not* town v town. Pay attention.

Fix my typo and there's still a question for you to answer.

Very nice posture yourself, seeing as you haven't really expressed suspicion of me before this post and I look like the most likely counterwagon to yours at this point.

I'm not going to vote you today, but your most recent posts are waffley as all hell.

[Nachomamma8]

I was saying it's *not* town v town. Pay attention.

Fix my typo and there's still a statement to explain*, whatever. I want a response.

[Nachomamma8]

I kinda don't want to lynch you Day 1 because I find Day 1 lynches to be disgraceful and a slap in the face and I don't think you deserve that but I haven't been paying attention enough to really name a probable suspect

This Day 1 lynch is shaping up to be pretty entertaining, actually. I would rather you keep your vote off unless you actually don't want to lynch me, though.

Yeah, that bugs me. People who do fake claim gambits don't lose interest in games. There was only about 3 days between your informed townie claim and your reveal that it was a gambit. And you posted 37 times in the interim.

This was my exact line of thought.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie, do you have a town read on maramala

[Nachomamma8]

You literally just told me to stop asking you to explain how you developed your read on me because the questions that I'm asking are scummy.

Reads are much more than one case. Stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell.

That's literally not what I said, kiddo.

You've already decided that I'm scum, to the point where you're just making shit up (like "his activity in this game is tied to mine...he waits for me to post, and then responds" such as 1501, 1519, and 1578? That have nothing to do with you?) because it makes your point sound better.

You only post anything interesting when I'm involved. Your 1501 was a small dig at a townread, 1519 was continuing that discussion, 1578 is a small dig at oversoul. It's about the posts people will look back on and remember, the posts that actually matter; no one will care that you didn't necessarily buy bacde's reasoning for finding the HD/Om hydra town because WIFOM is also a scum strategy. But you're right, the way I worded it last time sounded a lot better.

And how am I trying to make your case go away? Why would I keep responding to it (which is evidently all I'm doing) if my goal is to make it disappear? Why do you keep clipping my posts and then not answering the questions that I'm asking (and just calling them scummy instead)?

If you avoided it, you would be dead. I clip your posts because there's not a need to respond to the whole quote because that looks stupid as fuck. Did you think I was quoting specific pieces of your post to take things out of context? Because if that's a belief of yours, better back it up at least a little bit.

[Nachomamma8]

Bacde, bottom of #1642. Respond to it again now that you actually understand it.

[Nachomamma8]

AKA, the "Y u no comment on flava

You inferred that I was going to be lynched. I didn't like that.

Thor is a Thor read.

I'm going to give you the readthrough you deserve.

10. Thor665
11. Red Ryu
14. Baby Spice
15. Slandaar
17. Seanald
19. fuzzybutternut
21. Amethyst Kitty (Malakittens+MS Marangal)
]

These are reads that I want to be stronger.

[Nachomamma8]

Wanna hop on this nice wagon with me, Cephrir? It would be a hell of a slap to the face if I got lynched D1 AND couldn't get any sort of counterwagon going.

[Nachomamma8]

1) Don't call me kiddo...although the unnecessary condescension might help get you lynched so on second thought, keep patronizing me

Do you have a response to the words before the comma?

That's exactly what you said. You told me to "stop asking you these questions because they are scummy as hell" when "these questions" are me pointing out inconsistencies in your scumhunting and asking you to explain them. You've made no distinction between DLG's "at least" pretending to scumhunt and Baby Spice pretending to scumhunt, for example, for example, other than "it is that way because I say it is."

Scumhunting is putting forward reads and asking questions with transparent thought processes. Baby Spice and DLG have both done this to some extent, but the evolution of DLG's reads (notice the evolution of my townread) is far more believable than anything Baby Spice has put forward so far, especially with her calling the case against me shit before, never responding to them, and now working on posturing to hop on my wagon because it isn't going through without her.

3) So if I avoid it, that makes me autoscum. But if I respond to it, and my level of activity regarding other happenings in the game is not up to your standard, then I'm also scum? Is there a situation here that doesn't end with "then I'm scum" in your mind? Because it doesn't really sound like it.

It's not that your activity on other happenings in the game is not up to standard; it's that it's virtually non-existent.

And I wasn't making I point, I was being sarcastic because I knew that Nacho had just lied. CTD's case on DLG absolutely played into Nacho's townread on him (as I pointed out), which leads me to believe that he was just saying that in response to my question to discredit it from the start (that point is invalid because it isn't even relevant!) Except it was relevant, so now he has to switch to "CTD's push on his DLG case was better than yours," which was not his original assertion. Do you get it? He lied and got caught, so I pointed it out cheekily.

My case:

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

You took one of the last two sentences that are not the essence of the case at all. You also took what was a very vague statement and railroaded it into "CTD's case on DLG", which, again, was not what I said.

Finally, I'm not beholden to any of you or your standards of play. I'll respond to what I want to respond to, when I want to respond to it...before today I had 6 posts since voting Nacho (and Nacho voting me in return), 3 responding to his vote on me and 3 not. If 50% = "almost exclusively" then yeah, I'm almost exclusively responding to Nacho.

Quality or quantity?

Spoiler: Not Nacho

after a reread of page 59, I actually think the Om/HD hydra is town for the schizophrenia

it looks like a legitimate argument, not fabricated

How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

I wasn't aware I was making points that needed to be stretched for. Can you be more specific?

I fucked that up real hard.

God damn it. I had like 7 draft's for this game and I didn't know which one was it. >_>

Anyway, that is my impression of the people who commented on my claim.
What is interesting is that Ryu was particularly focused on why I was voting him which I find very peculiar, given that he mentioned it twice. Like I said, almost as if he is angry that he supported me and I was voting him.

So...are you going to give us the draft that isn't just mostly repetition of your #1058?

Spoiler: Nacho

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Can you explain what you mean by "fell flat?" I actually thought it was a pretty good point.

"he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads...it was still scumhunting, whether it was fake or not" can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything,

and the constant complaining about walls is scummy considering she's not commenting on anything in the entire game and blaming it solely on walls.

Seems to be basically the same exact point that I was making about DLG, isn't?

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

This...doesn't answer the question I was asking you. You were talking about Baby Spice and said "Plus I think that her dismissing Thor and I as town instantly and with no paranoia at all is sort of strange and seems like fake townreads because they actually aren't based on anything." Basically saying her townreads are weak and sparsely supported, i.e. fabricated, which is exactly what I was saying about DLG's townreads. Except you said "he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting." So why is it ok for you to call out Baby Spice's townreads for being weak, but when I call out DLG's townreads for being weak, he's still scumhunting and I'm scummy for it?

And why did you ignore my first question? How did my accusation against DLG for voting AA for not scumhunting when he isn't doing any himself fall flat? We clearly aren't on the same page here.

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I might be different, but I focus a hell of a lot closer on suspect's posting than everyone else, and reading DGB's post would take a little longer than that for me. I guess what I found strange was not that you read it that quickly, but that you read it that quickly AND decided you didn't see anything worth commenting on in that chunk.

Did you see anything worth commenting on? It was more of the same from my point of view, which I think was pretty clearly expressed in what I said.

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

Good thing I didn't say that CTD said that? Read the sentence again. I said that CTD proposed the mass claim that you said I was scummy for "vaguely supporting" the idea of even though I was not vague about my position whatsoever. And are you sure that it had absolutely nothing to do with it? Because you said that "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads," and I'm pretty sure his case on DLG falls into that category. If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

I question his current vote, not just because it's on someone I read as town and unlikely to lead anywhere, but also because there's a good wagon waiting to happen on his second choice, DLG.

I think that DLG and Desp are unlikely partners at this point

, so I'd rather take care of the stronger scumread first.

Well you're finally right about something.

zzzz

You literally just told me to stop asking you to explain how you developed your read on me because the questions that I'm asking are scummy. If you're already in the confirmation bias stage of this discussion then why are you even bothering to engage me? You've already decided that I'm scum, to the point where you're just making shit up (like "his activity in this game is tied to mine...he waits for me to post, and then responds" such as 1501, 1519, and 1578? That have nothing to do with you?) because it makes your point sound better.

And how am I trying to make your case go away? Why would I keep responding to it (which is evidently all I'm doing) if my goal is to make it disappear? Why do you keep clipping my posts and then not answering the questions that I'm asking (and just calling them scummy instead)?

I've also clarified that I was referring to content elsewhere and not number of posts you've made elsewhere.

[Nachomamma8]

Guess.

[Nachomamma8]

Perfect.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm clawing for reasons to unvote you and vote for desperado you know

I'd so much prefer it for both of us to be town and I want to believe

but you aren't helping me here

you feel like scum to me love

My definitely scum read is Desperado. Normally it would be baby spice, but I'm still sort of trying to sort her out. I don't think Red Ryu is scum, but I've been deceived by people going head-first at me for stupid reasons before. Slandaar, AK, Kublai, BS, fuzzy could be scum.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think he's scum. #1650 read as very strongly town to me.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that scum hopping onto my wagon in such an awkward way wouldn't immediately posture to hop off it again with a "I don't think you deserve something as insulting as a D1 lynch", and the reason for finding this game to be boring was actually decently thought out, calling for more cheekiness in the game... It rung right to me because yeah the game was exactly that way to me before I found Desp, and it makes sense that his activity would drop off after his Informed Townie claim didn't come to anything interesting and he doesn't really have any strong scumreads from the whole thing when it's all said and done.

[Nachomamma8]

this game just needs more good and less serious

[Nachomamma8]

but i'm headed out now
if you have any strong reads in

10. Thor665
11. Red Ryu
14. Baby Spice
15. Slandaar
17. Seanald
19. fuzzybutternut
21. Amethyst Kitty (Malakittens+MS Marangal)

do your thing

[Nachomamma8]

anyway I feel like I've done enough leading for one dayphase

should we lynch nacho? I like being dominant and all but usually this isn't my MO

#1683 was directed to you, please answer it.

I think the "Nacho demanded I follow his scumreads in the heat of the moment" despite him saying that he is "not happy about his reads" is a pretty good reason to say nacho is scum

I said that a very long time ago in 1478:

Mollie, Bacde, I'm not screaming at you guys for being idiots this game because you do have a point because I'm not exactly happy with my reads yet. It's not that I'm lacking motivation for this game and it isn't that I'm being useless (that's bullshit, Bacde), but I definitely am not being as aggressive and on point this game because I just don't have things worked out yet. I have a pretty good scumread in Desperado, a pretty decent town core, but I don't feel comfortable with the game to the point that I usually do. Although, Bacde:

if nacho flips town you are suspect #1

If I flip town, you're living in my scumlist for a while. You owe me that much.

Notice the word "yet". As in I'm confident that I'll be perfectly happy with my reads by then. Hell, I'm pretty happy with my reads now.

Wait, you're willing to drop the whole Oversoul thing because of one genuine-sounding post? WHAT?

It's been a more gradual change (as shown by me not pushing Oversoul to hell recently), but that post was what brought the read through in the end.

Lol Nacho.

It wasn't crap as it wasn't even there, with scum reads voting you.

But by about Bacd's iso #80 there actually started to be one so my read on you develope some.

Now though with Bc making noises about shifting his vote I'm wondering what's happening.

Didn't get my iso read done though. Nanna nap won out

All I needed for the scumread to be solidified was a posture.
Thank you.

Unvote
Vote: AA9

I can vouch for Syry's meta read on AA9. In Mini 1426 town-AA9 went V/LA late in D1, came back to a wagon on her and immediately OMGUS'd the wagon starter by quoting their vote and beginning with "scum trying to frame me and get me lynched in my absence." Her immediate frame of mind was 100% OMGUS.

And I agree with OS and Sy about what bacde said...calling attention to your attempt to prove that you aren't showing scum motivation is scum motivated.

What the hell happened to the read on me?

because he can be quite terrible, lurky, and unresponsive as town. I think it's a shame he does that, but he does do that now. I agree that he didn't use to. Meta changes.

Do you think that this is one of those games?

but why is nacho ignoring this game

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 8&sr=posts
This is a really useful tool.
Stalk the fuck out of me before you get worried that I'm avoiding a specific game because this accusation has been wrong a majority of the time.

[Nachomamma8]

For the record, Desp just went from this:

1) Don't call me kiddo...although the unnecessary condescension might help get you lynched so on second thought, keep patronizing me
2) That's exactly what you said. You told me to "stop asking you these questions because they are scummy as hell" when "these questions" are me pointing out inconsistencies in your scumhunting and asking you to explain them. You've made no distinction between DLG's "at least" pretending to scumhunt and Baby Spice pretending to scumhunt, for example, for example, other than "it is that way because I say it is."
3) So if I avoid it, that makes me autoscum. But if I respond to it, and my level of activity regarding other happenings in the game is not up to your standard, then I'm also scum? Is there a situation here that doesn't end with "then I'm scum" in your mind? Because it doesn't really sound like it.

PEdit: Ceph: Why does the question not make sense the first time, but when Nacho makes me ask it again that's when you "have me winning?" It's the same question.

And I wasn't making I point, I was being sarcastic because I knew that Nacho had just lied. CTD's case on DLG absolutely played into Nacho's townread on him (as I pointed out), which leads me to believe that he was just saying that in response to my question to discredit it from the start (that point is invalid because it isn't even relevant!) Except it was relevant, so now he has to switch to "CTD's push on his DLG case was better than yours," which was not his original assertion. Do you get it? He lied and got caught, so I pointed it out cheekily.

Finally, I'm not beholden to any of you or your standards of play. I'll respond to what I want to respond to, when I want to respond to it...before today I had 6 posts since voting Nacho (and Nacho voting me in return), 3 responding to his vote on me and 3 not. If 50% = "almost exclusively" then yeah, I'm almost exclusively responding to Nacho.

To this:

AP tests weren't even 50% as difficult as they were made out to be. I took 3 in a week two years in a row, it's really not that strenuous.

And it's not like you weren't aware of the date of the exams. You chose to join a large game during AP exam week, and are now getting snarky and defensive when people say it's scummy that you aren't really participating. Does that seem reasonable to you?

To this:

Unvote
Vote: AA9

I can vouch for Syry's meta read on AA9. In Mini 1426 town-AA9 went V/LA late in D1, came back to a wagon on her and immediately OMGUS'd the wagon starter by quoting their vote and beginning with "scum trying to frame me and get me lynched in my absence." Her immediate frame of mind was 100% OMGUS.

And I agree with OS and Sy about what bacde said...calling attention to your attempt to prove that you aren't showing scum motivation is scum motivated.

The switch in and of itself is suspicious as all fuck considering I was accusing him of only posting content when it has to do with me just a minute ago.

[Nachomamma8]

Which means a trip through Nacho's iso tommorow.

Vote Nacho

Since Bc asked so nicely.

Hey Fuzzy, this is not open 495.

Baby Spice, what did you find in my ISO?

[Nachomamma8]

Why Kublai, AK, Slandaar?

Kublai hasn't really posted anything that makes me think "strong town". I've seen some points that I've liked, but as far as his offense on pushing scum goes, there hasn't really been anything amazing.

AK has been waffling hard as fuck the whole game and posts like the most recent one where she starts doubting a townread because I was waffling on my push on them even though the initial push on them was the reason she thought I was scum. It's just a bunch of moon logic and not really what I was expecting from the slot at all. It doesn't feel like Mara's scum play, though, which throws me off quite a bit.

Slandaar is usually a pretty strong presence in game but hasn't done shit here. What do you see in him?

[Nachomamma8]

Under what circumstances did the scumread deteriorate?

Reading him over when he's not in the thread posting his weird things, I have trouble seeing his mindset as scum. The Informed Townie gambit doesn't really give him that much of a benefit, and the way that he retracted the claim didn't really seem like panic. It's also not unheard of for a gambit to completely flop and not produce the information that you originally thought it would; so the fact that he was sort of like "eh, this is all I got" read decently honest to me. Then there was the recent post which I liked, and I'm guessing he's probably not scum.

My read on you didn't go anywhere, Syry put forth a read on another player that I felt I had the knowledge to back up and the only way I can show my support for a wagon is to vote it. Did you not see the post two above your newest string where I listed you as someone I would like to see dead?

Okay. But why is your meta read on AA stronger than your read on me?

You are so far beyond confirmation bias at this point that it really isn't worth engaging you in a discussion...when I inevitably die and flip town I'll just take solace in the fact that you latched on to a bullshit read and spend the next however long confirming your own suspicions regardless of what I said.

Confirmation bias? I thought you were calling me scum just a moment ago and your read on me went nowhere.

[Nachomamma8]

Thor had a line of enquiry on Nacho which was ignored and then he kind of just dropped his line of thinking.

Where?

[Nachomamma8]

Comment on my Oversoul case please.

I saw those things, then decided in the end that he still probably wasn't scum.

I'd love it if you killed that part of your town meta though, just saying.

I'd love it if I killed my off games in my town meta too, but we all have off games. I think my play earlier was underwhelming, but I wouldn't call it bad. I think my play right now is perfectly fine.

@Nacho - you can come play here too, it looks tasty, like red velevt cake, Mmmmm.

Red Ryu has a bad case. I'm not convinced that he's scum.

It isn't. If I had 10 votes I would have 7 of them on you, 2 on DLG, and one on AA9, but I only have one.

Then why are you voting AA9 considering I'm a stronger read than AA9 for you AND I'm closer to getting lynched?

Honestly don't even know what you're talking about. I'm saying that you are so far beyond confirmation bias in your approach to me that we might as well just not engage one another. First I'm scummy because I'm only responding when you post, now I'm scummy because I'm responding to other things and moving my vote without updating you on where you stand in my reads. I'm sure if I hadn't posted any content the last few days you'd be saying I was scum for that, too. You're creating situations where I'm scum no matter what happens, hence, so far beyond confirmation bias.

If I was scum, I wouldn't have confirmation bias.

Also, if I'm honest, I think I just consider Red to be the most likely to be lynched of players I want to lynch. B&tB and Slandaar both seem immune from getting votes for some reason.

Slandaar is the read that I would join you on. B&B probably never, Red Ryu probably won't unless he fucks up bad when he comes back.

[Nachomamma8]

No, that doesn't explain why you are voting AA9. You want me lynched, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[Nachomamma8]

zzzzz my post outlining why I'm voting AA9 doesn't explain why I'm voting AA9? I want both of you lynched.

Right. So, again. Why aren't you voting the person who is closer to a lynch?

lol a wikipedia link. "...or when they interpret it (information) in a biased way." That's you in a nutshell.

You're saying that I'm interpreting the information in a way that confirms my belief that you are scum. Which infers that I'm town who is interpreting the information wrong and not scum that is twisting the information around to make you look bad.

[Nachomamma8]

Because your wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere and I'm more interested in AA9 right now.

Why are you more interested in AA9? Did you not notice she was lurking before?

called me scummy for asking you about them, or changed what you originally said into something else. You aren't engaging me in good faith, you're talking through me and then calling me scummy for whatever I do in response.

Yes, I did completely change what I said originally. What happens when I engage people is I attack them based on things that I don't like in their play, and then my read changes (either gets stronger or gets weaker) based on their responses. In this case, they got stronger. The situation of me calling you out for not scumhunting elsewhere is an observation that isn't necessarily indicative of you immediately being scum since you might just be a tunneley player, but the fact that you immediately adjusted your play after I called you out on that point told me I struck a chord.

Meh, if you are playing perfectly fine and were town, this wagon wouldn't be on you.

Sometimes I look at the wagon on me and I wonder.

Vote Slandaar?
Also, why does Red not look like a good case to you, but you're wide open to the idea of voting him if he does a nebulous 'something'?

If we lynch Desp today, we can lynch Slandaar tomorrow.
Red doesn't look like a good lynch based on what he's doing so far, but I'm still sorting him out.

you talking about OS, because I'm not waffling on him...

Oversoul has been, and still is, a town-read but Nacho's waffle on him is strange.

No?

How about you link me to all these scumgames where he opposed massclaim on Day 1 that you have seen.

i'm also leaning heavily towards massclaiming
i think we could break this game if Tim is telling the truth

Not liking the BV/CES wagon when there are much juicier lynch targets to be had.

Wish mollie would start thinking for herself instead of just blindly doing what Vifam does.

massclaim
y/n?

I would be okay with massclaiming, but since Fate isnt getting lynched we dont need to do that.

i think we might get some useful shit from it regardless

I generally don't like d1 massclaims but since it appears we are already on our way.

hey
hey tim
you got a useful opinion on massclaim?

There's those links of me supporting massclaim on D1!
And if you're looking for me opposing massclaim because I am scum and I don't want there to be a massclaim, check out Amnesia Mafia. I went along with the town's shitty massclaim plan and then talked about how a full massclaim would've been a better idea after the fact.

Seriously thought, you've hardly mentioned him nor what you find scummy about him.

Seriously, you've never mentioned what you've found scummy about me.
Wait...

I actually kind of like the idea of me vs. Nacho today. He's scum, and that fact seems to have divided us pretty well. Cephrir dies first after Nacho flips scum.

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

what happened to sorting out AA9.

[Nachomamma8]

Back from V/LA, Thor is derping hard.

We need to stop distracting from the Nacho wagon.

BB convince me Thor is scum over dumb, I still remain that he is dumb town.

I'll click my ISO button to see where I left off.

Bacde you still my Bro?

Are you still pushing me because my Oversoul push was too aggressive?

[Nachomamma8]

Tried to dance around it best I could, then "agreed" and brought up a couple of reasons why it was such a bad idea. Slandaar's arguing that my stance on massclaim has had such a meta claim that was too ridiculous to be town, but you reminded me of Adventure Time which I sort of blacked out of my memory for a while.

[Nachomamma8]

Town, for once.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks for quoting what he missed, Bacde.

[Nachomamma8]

How did I know he was lying as scum?

[Nachomamma8]

Also, I want you to tell me if you think how my push on HD in this game was different from my push on Oversoul in this one.

[Nachomamma8]

It doesn't, but the premise of the argument was that there was NO WAY I could know that Oversoul was lying, and I refused to believe that he was either telling the truth (true) or that he was lying town (false, and the reason I kept pushing him regardless was actually explained earlier in the thread).

[Nachomamma8]

But he tried to push OS on this as being scummy, there was no reason to consider him scummy for that action, he deliberately refused to think OS was town doing that lying or telling the truth.

Please stop interrupting.

[Nachomamma8]

The quote is old because Red Ryu's been on V/LA, and I'd like to see him talk about the argument now that he's back and I have a better idea of what the scumteam should look like. What's the difference between the quote and what I said?

[Nachomamma8]

NO WAY I could have known that OS was lying, AND I refused to believe that he was either telling the truth or he was lying town
There was no way to consider the claim scummy (as in I didn't know he was lying), I refused to believe that he was either lying town or telling the truth

I am telling you to stop interrupting because I am trying to read Ryu, and I really would rather not deal with you when all that you've been posting for the longest time was scumscumscumscumscum. You were right that I was playing off. You were right that I was playing more passively than usual. Now I've stepped it the fuck up to a pretty dramatic point, but still with everything that I post it's scumscumscumscumscum. It shouldn't come to a surprise to you that I'm "attempting to undermine you" (actually, I'm trying the best I can to ignore you) because if you were in my position at this point you would have lost your patience a hell of a lot earlier than I have.

[Nachomamma8]

Your ability to misread what I say is pretty amazing. When I said you "completely changed what you said" I was referring to, for example, your stance on CTD, where you first said his case on DLG had absolutely nothing to do with your townread on him, but then later you said you were townreading him because of the way he was pushing his case as opposed to me. And can you show me where you called me out for not scumhunting? I don't remember that being a part of your case at any point. Or maybe where I "immediately adjusted my play?" Because that's new too.

PEdit: This is you stepping it up? Continually misreading other people's posts and resorting to just making shit up when it suits you?

I never said that I was townreading him because of how he was pushing his case as opposed to you.

You took one of the last two sentences that are not the essence of the case at all. You also took what was a very vague statement and railroaded it into "CTD's case on DLG", which, again, was not what I said.

You're still doing this, by the way.

And can you show me where you called me out for not scumhunting?

That refers to you interacting almost exclusively with me.

Or maybe where I "immediately adjusted my play?" Because that's new too.

That refers to the AA9 vote. Could you also explain your thought process behind that a bit more because I still don't understand it.

PEdit: This is you stepping it up? Continually misreading other people's posts and resorting to just making shit up when it suits you?

PEdit: This is you stepping it up? Continually misreading other people's posts and resorting to just making shit up when it suits you?

Who else have I misrepped? Where else have a made up shit where it's suited me?

[Nachomamma8]

What I want to know is, why you don't feel like the nacho I love?

You've been pushing me for what, two weeks? I don't really think that you're suddenly going to have a revelation and be like "oh wait this is town nacho".

[Nachomamma8]

I have never been interacting exclusively with you, either before or after my vote. There was a two day period (on a weekend IIRC) where I did not pust much (the 50/50 you and Cephrir pointed out earlier).

And that's the period I was talking about because it just happened to be the time when I was initially pushing the case on you.

And me moving my vote is an adjustment of my play? Go into more detail on that.

You interacting with me almost exclusively, then you voting ArcAngel and pushing her.

You are right that I mentioned DLG was a part of my case. You are correct that I used the words "excusively" when that word was too strong, and that I said "nothing to do with it" when it should mean "little to do with it". But the points that I'm making, that no, CTD's case on DLG wasn't a significant part of my reads, and no, you weren't exclusively focusing on me put you sure weren't looking elsewhere in any significant way.

[Nachomamma8]

So your only response is semantics? You said what you said, and I can only assume that you meant it to. This is backtracking, now that I caught you in a lie again. About the same thing! It's also funny that you don't actually address the fact that you just lied again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaggeration
Since you like wikipedia articles so much.

As to the bolded...and now you and Cephrir are using the fact that I was looking elsewhere as a scumtell on me. This is not engaging me in good faith. I'm scummy for only focusing on you, but I'm also scummy for focusing on other people because I'm only doing it because you told me to.

Because you did it immediately after I called you out on looking elsewhere AND you aren't explaining your thought process of why you decided to go after AA in that specific moment very well. In fact, you are completely ignoring me asking for clarification for absolutely no reason.

[Nachomamma8]

Desperado, I don't want you to repeat yourself; I want you to explain why you suddenly decided to push AA9 even though your vote likely wasn't going to generate a wagon and your suspicions on me were much more solid. "Your wagon wasn't going anywhere" doesn't explain why you decided to switch. Yes, you liked Syryana's AA9 meta case, but it didn't push AA9 up to your DLG suspicion level. Why did you want to push on her and show your support for THAT wagon, as opposed to voting DLG to show your support for him? Why did you switch back to me once you started to get votes? The number of votes on you doesn't change the fact that the wagon on me "wasn't going anywhere", does it?

And again, that's not why I'm townreading DLG. If you remember, YOU were the one that kept bringing CTD's DLG case up. Look at the exchange:

Spoiler: CTD's case on DLG

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

Good thing I didn't say that CTD said that? Read the sentence again. I said that CTD proposed the mass claim that you said I was scummy for "vaguely supporting" the idea of even though I was not vague about my position whatsoever. And are you sure that it had absolutely nothing to do with it? Because you said that "He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads," and I'm pretty sure his case on DLG falls into that category. If his case on DLG was good enough to prove to you that he was doing other things and coming up with scumreads, and it was very similar to mine, why is he a townread and me a scumread?

It wasn't his case on DLG alone. He's pushed DLG in a way that's better than the way you pushed it. Reads are much more than one case. Stop asking these questions because they are scummy as hell.

And I wasn't making I point, I was being sarcastic because I knew that Nacho had just lied. CTD's case on DLG absolutely played into Nacho's townread on him (as I pointed out), which leads me to believe that he was just saying that in response to my question to discredit it from the start (that point is invalid because it isn't even relevant!) Except it was relevant, so now he has to switch to "CTD's push on his DLG case was better than yours," which was not his original assertion. Do you get it? He lied and got caught, so I pointed it out cheekily.

You took one of the last two sentences that are not the essence of the case at all. You also took what was a very vague statement and railroaded it into "CTD's case on DLG", which, again, was not what I said.

You tried to deflect my scumread on you by comparing yourself to CTD and his case on DLG. I said, no, that wasn't why I found CTD town. You pointed to a vague sentence that included all of CTD's cases (doesn't imply that I found one case more convincing than the other, doesn't imply that it's a significant part), and I pointed out that his case on DLG was different & better than yours, and that my read on CTD wasn't solely based on that one case on DLG. You then go onto "CAUGHT YOU LYING CAUGHT YOU LYING" even though that the original assertion was that it didn't make sense I had different reads on you and CTD even though you both had similar cases on DLG, and I pointed out that it doesn't really have anything to do with my read on CTD. Yes, it's a piece of the read, but not a significant one. Just like you were focusing pretty much exclusively on me before you vote AA9. Not absolutely 100% focusing on me, but pretty close.

[Nachomamma8]

I did? There are 24 people in this game...your presence in the game was limited and my focus was not on you. Syry's evidently was. He brought something to the town's attention (scumhunting) that I found interesting and could support, given my experience with you. It's really as simple as that.

But that still doesn't explain why you decided to switch your vote when you did. If you would put 7 votes on me, 2 on DLG, 1 on AA if you could, then it only makes sense for your vote to be on me when I am both your strongest suspicion and the leading wagon. If you find it interesting and want to support it, you can quote and say "I agree". But why did you decide to move your vote?

[Nachomamma8]

The fact is how you pushed him was not something I would see a townie do. You didn't open up to the fact if he was town or not, you stuck to tunneling him as scum and never tried to actually get a read. You made judgement without trying to verify if you were right or not. You're experienced, not a newbie, is so I know to expect you to not do things like this as town.

Why do you say that I never tried to actually get a read?
I actually stopped aggressively pushing Oversoul in something like #241, then all additional attacks on him came from people questioned him. In #836, I backed the fuck off him and started spreading my net a LOT more, argued with Nero Cain some... but all in all, didn't push Oversoul in a way that certainly didn't demonstrate that I didn't care about a read on him. What about my push made it where you thought that I was just tunneling?

[Nachomamma8]

Great. A lurker!!!

v/la till Thursday

<<< Noted.
Also, double post deleted. >>>

HALLELUJAH

[Nachomamma8]

Don't like that Nacho took the emphasis out of the quote here. I see no town motivation for doing so, and see no way it could have happened unintentionally. This was a scum tactic through-and-through. Back on Nacho.

VOTE: Nacho

Tell me what emphasis I took out.

[Nachomamma8]

Majiffy. What I want you to do is highlight your last sentence in your most recent quote. Then I want you to press the quote button, and press submit. Don't press preview, don't look at the BBCode, don't do any of that shit. Just press submit.

[Nachomamma8]

Majiffy. What I want you to do is highlight your last sentence in your most recent quote. Then I want you to press the quote button, and press submit. Don't press preview, don't look at the BBCode, don't do any of that shit. Just press submit.

MAJIFFY

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

I thought they both were...

[Nachomamma8]

Spoiler:

Once upon time
A few mistakes ago
I was in your sights
You got me alone
You found me
You found me
You found me

I guess you didn't care
And I guess I liked that
And when I fell hard
You took a step back
Without me, without me, without me

And he's long gone
When he's next to me
And I realize the blame is on me

Cause I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places i'd never been
Till you put me down oh
I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places i'd never been
Now i'm lying on the cold hard ground
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble

No apologies
He'll never see you cry
Pretend he doesn't know
That he's the reason why
You're drowning, you're drowning, you're drowning

And I heard you moved on
From whispers on the street
A new notch in your belt
Is all I'll ever be
And now I see, now I see, now I see
He was long gone
When he met me
And I realize the joke is on me

I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places i'd never been
Till you put me down oh
I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places i'd never been
Now i'm lying on the cold hard ground
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble

When your sadest fear comes creeping in
That you never loved me or her or anyone or anything
Yeah

I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places I'd never been
Till you put me down oh
I knew you were trouble when you walked in
So shame on me now
Flew me to places i'd never been
Now i'm lying on the cold hard ground
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble
Oh, oh, trouble, trouble, trouble

I knew you were trouble when you walked in
Trouble, trouble, trouble
I knew you were trouble when you walked in
Trouble, trouble, trouble!

I would bet several shiny nickles that only Majiffy thinks that unbolding the word 'again' (better hide the fact he caught me twice; people will never catch me if it's not bold!!!) is a scumtell. Bulbazak, what do you think of Desp?

[Nachomamma8]

Eugh, he likes autotune more than T-Pain Swift.

It's amazing.

[Nachomamma8]

Peditx4: A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

It's too bad I had no intentions of hopping on the wagon anyway. Just a little input in a slightly more in-depth manner. I still don't really buy the Nacho case anyway.

Wait, you were serious with this?

I also refreshed this page at least 9 times to wait for Bacde to post 'jk'.

[Nachomamma8]

Peditx4: A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

It's too bad I had no intentions of hopping on the wagon anyway. Just a little input in a slightly more in-depth manner. I still don't really buy the Nacho case anyway.

Wait, you were serious with this?

I also refreshed this page at least 9 times to wait for Bacde to post 'jk'.

So did I

I'm going to keep this moment in my heart forever.

[Nachomamma8]

lol I hope thats not you admitting that you are scum

you are on thin ice in my heart right now buddy

It's me feeling trusted again.
I know I'm on thin ice now, but I feel I could fly to heaven on this feeling.

Bulb. #1972

Not so subtle dig at Red who seemed to think that mangling an Eagles song was serious but missed the actual question that was in the post that was directed at someone else.

Why are you voting me?

[Nachomamma8]

The only time Bacde ever joked about bussing a scumbudy that I could find, he was actually bussing a scum budy.
He joked about bussing you this game.

Combined with what looks like a bus vote from Bc and ...

Oh sweet, link it. Also, why does this look like a bus vote?

Syr why is our hop now suspect when we have been on about Nacho being scum for a while? We were vote#4 on the ori wagon. I find it odd that you're now calling us out for it even though its not something new that we have done.

You guys haven't had a solid reason for voting me in forever, although I would expect Mara to be engaging me pretty directly if she thought I was scum.

nacho you are feeling a little better to me now!

Only a little better?

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26373

Just read page one.

Zoidberg wasn't scum?

[Nachomamma8]

a quiet teeth is a dangerous thing I mean I left an easter egg for nero and he didn't pick it up that kind of worries me

Nero has been less active in this game than I'm used to, but I still think he's probably town. The way he pushed you for being indy/argued with me about it means he's probably town. He's also trolling the game a shitton and trying to read arc, which are both good signs for him.

ak can only be 1 of 2 things do you know what I mean when I say that?

Yes. They are solidly in my scum pile at the moment though.

who all is in your town pile let's go from there

you, bacde, thor, syryana, bulba, Om/HD, eddiefenix, arc, CTD, thez is the strong town pile. cephrir probably belongs in there, but I'm a little hesitant.
seanald is a decent townread for latching onto bacde in the way he did, red ryu i would call town but he's been hard to talk to lately, nero is probably town, but hesitant.
CTD I occasionally have paranoid flashes on but I still think he's probably town.

[Nachomamma8]

do you really think bulb boy is town? I can't tell if his sycophancy is a personality thing or not I don't know him. I have been leaving him alone cos majiffy town reads him I am not wanting to work with him lol, he annoys the daylights out of me but I don't want to completely ignore him if there is something there

bulb is an extremely strong townread of mine.

nachooooooo I was hoping to connect with you before I logged into my main where are you

got kicked out of the library

Nacho thinks its terrible for town; it might not be; but if he THINKS it is he must also think it benefits scum.

Psst. I think that I've shown that isn't the case, Slandaar.

[Nachomamma8]

Thor is town because I've been bouncing things off the entire day and I like how he's handled most things this day. I think his tendency to get caught up in the thrill of the argument is a Thor tell and won't really bring you anywhere, but I think things like his attack on the B&B slot because he's clashing hard with mollie is more Thor town than Thor scum, I thought the way the he handled my wagon (picking out the most valid argument, going into research on his own, appealing to me to compromise then moving in on different things at his own) was town as fuck and showed a pretty genuine thought process that even scum Thor has trouble faking, and I think that the perpetual catchup he's gotten trapped in is genuine as hell because he's been busy lately, but he wouldn't do something like that as scum unless he thought he would be specifically townread by it and it's sort of a shitty scum strategy in general that I doubt he would decide to pick up out of the blue.

EddieFenix is town as fucking shit. His Bulbazak wall, his hop on my wagon and then immediate hop off, his attitude when people suspect him. I mentioned this more in my big wall.

Mac read town to me, so Thez gets that townread carried over. I pegged him as scum in a game recently and his play here is pretty different, so free pass for thez.

[Nachomamma8]

What are you accusing me of Nacho?

Does your post have a point or did you just misrep me really hard?

...so you didn't read those posts re: massclaiming. Okay.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel better about Slandaar now.

[Nachomamma8]

What relevance do they have to me arguing about something you said in a different game?

You're arguing that my meta shift is too dramatic to be coming from town. I've posted recent games of me seeing massclaim as beneficial to town, meaning that wait: meta shift's not too dramatic because it already happened.

[Nachomamma8]

NO

<<< No to what? Me? Nacho, how could you? >>>

[Nachomamma8]

We can just lynch Desperado.

[Nachomamma8]

That quote is taken directly from the post talking about Thors 'Nacho didn't say it is good for scum' (In whatever game it was)

I took that quote to grab your attention.
I read your post. I obviously don't agree with you.

[Nachomamma8]

@someone on the Desperado wagon: Can you summarize the scum-play? Something in the form of "he did X which is scummy because Y". No need for quotes, I'll ISO-read after work tonight.

I think that him trying to compare himself to another one of my townreads (CTD) and trying to argue that I can't have a townread on him based on similar cases was scummy because it was decently clear why I had the townread on CTD in the first place, so him taking the "you can't have a scumread on me because one of your townreads position" seemed like he was trying to escape based on a technicality as opposed to any genuine opinion.

His behavior while I attacked him initially was scummy because he focused mostly on me and didn't scumhunt elsewhere; when I confronted him on it, he tried to squirm out of it several ways, then suddenly jumped off on ArcAngel on a case that he just wanted to show "support" for. It's scummy because he was adjusting his play to please the crowd when he started to get heat, and his reaction afterwards of "I'm just fucked no matter what I do" is scummy and hypocritical, considering he let Bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunneling. His dodginess while being questioned also helped too; when I asked him about the arcangel vote, he never explain why he decided to move except that my wagon wasn't going anywhere and he thought he would show more support if he put a vote on it. He moved back when he started to get votes, but that was the survival instinct kicking in; if all he wanted to do was show support for the vote, then deciding to vote me just because he's getting more votes doesn't make any sense at all.

[Nachomamma8]

also where did overlysoul go I don't want to lose sight of him.

Oversoul worries me most, I think.
I still don't think he's scum but I know that he's a weak read for me.

[Nachomamma8]

See this is the problem, basically none of this accurately reflects what happened.

I never "argued" that you can't townread CTD and not me, I was ASKING YOU why that was the case and you called me scummy for asking.

I "focused mostly on you" during a three day period, on a weekend, in which I made 6 posts and 3 were relevant to you and 3 weren't.

I didn't "suddenly" jump off on an Arc case, Syry pointed something out and I backed him up on it.

I wasn't adjusting my play to please the crowd because my play never adjusted...please show me the difference between my play in the first 1000 posts and the second 1000 posts.

It's hypocritical for me to "let bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunnelling" when he was tunnelling on a scum read?

I didn't have to explain why I moved again because I already had, multiple times. And I put my vote back on you after Arc responded to my vote...you know, the whole reason I put it there in the first place?

We've gone though this literally a hundred times.
Do you really want to go through it again? I don't.

[Nachomamma8]

"It's hypocritical for me to "let bacde push my wagon a loooong way without commenting on his tunnelling" when he was tunnelling on a scum read that I share?"

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

^this

feels out of step

wrt the bold: the game is really long cos activity is super high which is the opposite of "killing activity". this post looks like town is on the brink of finding each other and scum are getting uncomfortable cos they are getting squeezed out. scummiest post in the game IMO.

I agree.

[Nachomamma8]

Nice potshot.

[Nachomamma8]

And me!

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah. I didn't like the case that others put up, and then I went through your ISO at least three times and still didn't find something to satisfy me. In the end, I felt that your later posts also made up for the massclaim stuff, which honestly wasn't too strong to begin with.

I was referring mostly to the "why would he unbold something that he can't hide?" bit earlier. I assumed it was a joke, but others thought not.

[Nachomamma8]

I wasn't overly serious; it was more speculation than anything else. Something about me is that I think out loud a lot, and that was one of the instances where I didn't entirely support the argument, but I contemplated why it would happen out loud. Now, I didn't try what you said where you quoted it and instant replied or whatever, but I kind of assumed it didn't work. It merely was that is seemed strange to me why you would decide to unbold a word which added emphasis where if one were to do an ISO of you, they would be more prone to avoiding such an instance.

Alright.

[Nachomamma8]

B&B, what do you think of Baby Spice?

[Nachomamma8]

I personally wonder how much Mastin pointing out the deadline lynch ruling contributed to Bacde's change of vote and softening of his Nacho scumon.

Baby Spice, how did my ISO reading go?

[Nachomamma8]

Quite well.

But then I was reading you Nacho with regard to Bacde, looking for things to make me think I was wrong, or for changes to reflect/predict Bacde's changes in his opinion of Nacho.

Found neither.

What do you think about my argument about Desperado?
What do you think of the massclaim argument?
What do you think about the meta feel?
Why have you decided to flop onto me?

[Nachomamma8]

* I'm not understanding the Desperado case at all. In fact I'm hard pressed to think if a proper one was actually presented. It feels more like a counter wagon to Nacho now that the deadline is getting close. Added to the highest wagon dies at deadline thing.

This alone tells me that you didn't read my ISO.

I didn't decide to 'flop' on you. I voted you because Bacde made a bad bussing a partner joke, which he has only done before while scum bussing a partner. If I was a vig I'd shoot one of you. If there was a wagon on Bacde I'd be voting him. But there is one on you so you first.

lol @ people townreading me for claiming scum

Town
Kise
BBMolla
Zang (Probably)

Probably Bacde's scum partners
Majiffy (chainsaw defense w/ toasty sheep)
Ms Marangal
Svenstagel stahl
Toasty (obv chainsaw defense)

It feels that you found an instance of Bacde saying that he was bussing his scum partners when he actually was (and even that was a shitty fit) since that took me literally two minutes. If you don't meta people normally, why did you meta Bacde? He made that bussing joke a really long time ago.

<<< It would appear double-posting happens to even the best of us. Deleted the duplicate. >>>

[Nachomamma8]

Did you notice the post I quoted? Bacde town or scum?

[Nachomamma8]

In #2170, I quoted a post by Bacde from a different game. Was he town or scum?
And please, let's not get to the discrediting part of this read yet. That happens after I'm pushing you as scum and calling out your buddies as you go down.

[Nachomamma8]

In #2170, I quoted a post by Bacde from a different game. Was he town or scum?
And please, let's not get to the discrediting part of this read yet. That happens after I'm pushing you as scum and calling out your buddies as you go down.

who are her buddies?

Not sure yet.
A lot of people disappeared when my wagon did.

[Nachomamma8]

Sometimes you understand me, sometimes you don't.
I was saying she was bringing out the discrediting tactics early because I wasn't nailing her down against a wall and calling out her buddies left and right quite yet.

[Nachomamma8]

Actually...

Vote: Baby Spice

[Nachomamma8]

What still bothers me about the Desp situation is his vote on ArcAngel; I literally cannot grasp why he switched votes why he did despite the stronger reads and different sized wagons. The "I kind of like Nacho and I 1v1" didn't help reason things for me because the number of votes on him shouldn't dictate whether he's going to show support for his wagon or not. It reads weird that he didn't change votes because he's reading me more townily or ArcAngel as strong scum or some shit like that. Still don't like that, but it's literally hurting me to leave Baby Spice alive with the posts she's made lately.

[Nachomamma8]

why the vote on spice girl when you agreed with me about os and so far you have had him as sus

hold on

[Nachomamma8]

Thor is town. Him I can read.

This is strange as fuck. I finally went through their games together, and there's like 1 where there's both town and have mutual townreads; Baby Spice doesn't really show her prowess to read Thor anywhere then I can find.

Page 19 and reading.

Perpetual catchup, never reads shit but always lies and says she does.

Hmm.

I decided to check Nacho's posting history just to see what was happening, and spotted him browsing this forum.

Make of that what you will.

Potshot when I'm gone for literally two days.

I think I've mis-read Thor once in the last two years, a current game he replaced into.

You've played 4 games together.

Nacho's spent a lot of the game with a decent vote count. Nacho does appear to be doing what Bacde accuses him of, ignoring Bacde and defending against others. Could be because Bacde is tunneling like he's part of the great escape, and pushing that as a defense is better than actually defending.

original suspicion of me is because of the Bacde case she "doesn't care about" later.

Didn't get my iso read done though. Nanna nap won out

Last we hear of the mystical ISO read.

Vote Nacho

Since Bc asked so nicely.

this doesn't come when Bacde said he was bussing me.
this came when Bacde called me out for not being happy with my reads and telling him to follow them when he died.
the idea that BS saw Bacde's bus post was the reason the BS is voting me is bullshit

Desperado,
why don't you come to your senses.
You've been sitting on fences
for so long now

Seriously thought, you've hardly mentioned him nor what you find scummy about him.

speaking of which, who dances around the Desperado lynch like a ballerina?
she's not scary spice.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26373

Just read page one.

Zoidberg wasn't scum?

thank you for existing

Troll lol lol lol lol.


But the person Bc was voting at the time, from two or three posts above, was.

I don't know why the fuck it matters who he votes before he says he's bussing everyone, but the fact that she latches onto THIS and ignores bacde making the bussing claim as town is complete and fucking bullshit. She'd notice in the other game that Bacde didn't go on a gigantic bussing spree and push his partners like he's pushing me here
then i found bacde making the bussing joke in another game
does she pay attention to it?
nope

I found that previous instance quite a while ago but I was hoping your lynch would go through and when you flipped scum I could bring it up D2 and get your buddy more easily. Since it looks like that lynch is not going to happen, I mentioned it.

BS thinks she found me and a partner
she doesn't bring it up the next day so she could get my partner more easily?
hahahaha fuck that noise

[Nachomamma8]

why the vote on spice girl when you agreed with me about os and so far you have had him as sus

hold on

I would rather the stronger read dead, although my read on Oversoul now that he has disappeared into the wild blue yonder tells me that a lynch there is completely okay and would probably make me very happy.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, where was my town waffle and where did I connect that town-read to your scum-read?

Oversoul has been, and still is, a town-read but Nacho's waffle on him is strange.

Talk about your mindset here more.

A whole lot of your early game play was more about speculation than it was about actually getting the game going. Your push on OS is different from your push on HD because you didn't vote HD for the PJO claim, though you immediately voted OS for the "useless Claim" which I clearly saw as a gambit to catch scum.

Beyond that, Mala felt something off in your early posts. she stated something along the lines of "it was all over the place" and we both agree that we could trust mollie on her read of you

Why did it take you so long to mention mollie?

I'm not seeing where Slandaaar is coming from in regards to Thor, I want clarification there

I kinda want to call the exchance TvT though.

explain this.

[Nachomamma8]

spice girl's frustration looks like town frustration. not interested in her lynch

It threw me for a loop, but I'm definitely going to wait for penguin to check in. I like her style because she's all logical and I won't have to see through any irrational bullshit with her.

nacho the thing that is worrying me about you is the lack of continuity or connectivity of your thoughts

it is hard to explain. I am finding myself not wanting to follow you in this game as much as I would like. we are simply not on the same page.

We agree on AK. We agree on Oversoul.
Nero is quiet, I'm not watching him.
You don't agree on Desp, so I'm backing off and watching him.
You don't agree on BS anymore, and I don't feel it in the same way like I used to, but there was a lot of scummy shit in that little explosion, so I'm not feeling good about dropping off yet.

eta: kubbles why

I'm not answering to that name.

I laughed.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm skimming? ok, if I were skimming then I'd have no reason to ask for a tl;dr.

Read it yourself.

[Nachomamma8]

After you're done reading, you tell me.

[Nachomamma8]

I will when I get to that part, but I think you would have a vested interest in understanding your wagon.

I'm actually pretty interested in hearing how you interpret my wagon. I've talked about my wagon enough in previous posts that it's sort of a waste to do it again, but I'm interested in what conclusions you reach about it.

[Nachomamma8]

sorry to make you stop flying nacho, its just that you have a scum PM

I knew it wouldn't last.

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

Edited to add.

[Nachomamma8]

I'd say my biggest problem isn't finding the scum

its being manipulated by the scum after I've found them

You just need to figure out when you're right and when you're wrong.

How I interpret it is less important than how you do. If you are lynched and town, we have honest info. If you are not town, we have info.

It also let's me achieve dual interest in the thread, both back and front.

That's reasonable enough. Bacde is voting me for meta reasons, Desperado voted me without reasoning initially and then made a case on me for bullshit fucking reasons that I've talked about far too much already, Nero is probably still voting me for yelling at him for attacking mollie and her meta tells, Seanald's following Bacde, I've tried many times to understand CTD's reasons but he's too fucking lurky for me to nail them down and question me on them, Slandaar was voting me because he thought my position on massclaim was faked, Baby was voting me earlier because Bacde said he was bussing me and he only does that as scum, apparently, B&B also meta reasons, AK for god knows why (apparently because they were following mollie, but that's sure as shit not what they said originally, Red Ryu because he didn't like my oversoul push.

Yes, because Nacho's reads w/r/t our slots were different when our play dictated otherwise.

have you and CTD played exactly the same?
no.

???

More to the point:
What are you saying with the second quote.

Ryu, why were you so fixated on the fact that I was voting you when you were supporting me earlier?

You haven't been moving your vote around, it was sitting on me for the longest time with really no sense of direction anywhere else in terms of what you were looking at.

Why me in particular? Thor hadn't moved his vote up to that point either.

You're unbelievably useless.

Bottomline: I refuse to accept that scum are incapable of conf bias, and if calling Nacho out for using it in his argument against me gets me lynched then so be it.

Desperado's town.

thez is scum, nacho is scum, thor might be scum, eddiefenix is obviously scum w/ nacho

what else is there to say about this game?

thez *might* be scum
every other one of your reads is garbage

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Oversoul

[Nachomamma8]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=12807

[Nachomamma8]

Haylen's town as fuck.

[Nachomamma8]

He's hammered, so.

[Nachomamma8]

and yeah I am thinking you are right about nacho maybe

luckily i had the moment i needed with you to see desp town so
i guess it's okay you're still scumreading me?

[Nachomamma8]

because they are town as shit, as are you

[Nachomamma8]

But they've spent the entire game advocating sheeping "anyone who has the same opinions as me is town" with one or two SHEEPING IS WRONG...but only if you're not sheeping me posts in there. That's both inconsistent and hypocritical. Besides, sheeping is definitely anti-town.

That's Majiffy's style. Might be anti-town, but that doesn't necessarily make it scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Oi nacho! Last time you called me obvious town, you also said I had a top secret towntell. This was in a multiball game, I think, Large Normal? You were scum there and you told me later it's you did it because I have a habit of automatically assuming those who call me town are town themselves. Then I get mislynched when that player flipped scum.

Why haven't you accused me of being scum yet? My known meta as town is to active lurk, generally active as scum, most active as SK? I rarely make a shit tonne of posts, especially day one, definitely not this many in the space of 24 hours. I'm fullfilling my old SK meta so far.

You've been gone for like a year. I'm sure you'll be active in the first game you post in regardless of what alignment you got.

[Nachomamma8]

Also I'm pretty confident I always read you as town except when you were actually scum. Right?

[Nachomamma8]

Makes sense.

Tell me about the non-Majiffy BB head.

she's pretty aggressive as town, extremely passive as scum
Majiffy is definitely the scum player of the duo since he's aggressive as fuck all the time, but mollie hates playing scum lately. We've played something like 20 games together (something stupid like that) and I've never been incorrect about a strong town read on her. She gets passionate about strong reads, is a heavy meta player and focuses heavily on sorting people out. Occasionally a massive troll.

[Nachomamma8]

Does it not make sense that after 20 games she would have cottoned on to you knowing her meta and changed it?

It would, but you have to understand how large of a meta change this would be.

[Nachomamma8]

Her meta change hasn't really been gradual; her town game's been getting more aggressive to compensate for my changing scum style, but her scum game is still the same. She just prefers playing town more; look at players like Empire, Tierce, Tammy. They've had a while to fix their scumgames, but they're still open books to people familiar with their meta.

[Nachomamma8]

"I am confident that I can read your town meta."

I'm not reading you as meta. I'm reading you as a player. You could have played the excuses game, you could have done a lot of shit, but you jumped in the game and immediately turned on the aggression. You're not worried about image in the least part, as shown by you attacking pretty heavily based on limited knowledge, so yeah I think you're pretty fucking town.

[Nachomamma8]

"I don't trust your meta, it's too old."

oh and it's not this; i expected your activity for this game to be high regardless
you haven't played in a while, so it wouldn't make sense for you to lurk through the first game you got regardless of alignment

[Nachomamma8]

and yeah, I'm not confident i can still read you, but the fact that a lot of that aggression was directed towards me reads pretty good to me. it's gotten me to focus more on you so either you're confident of being to dodge me who hasn't taken a break, or you're town and paranoid of me because I'm reading you as town, and i lean strongly towards the latter.