NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[thezmon221]

I have my role, and I'm confirming.

Don't kill anyone yet.

I didn't realize this game has 1300 posts, and now I have to read it all.

I have also played with only 8 of you, not including replacements not in the game.

I like making one-line paragraphs on occasions.

It's really fun.

Baby Spice I'm still sore* you won that game.

Majiffy I'm still sore* about Music Theory.

Filler text needs to be inserted here.

<<< Filler text has been inserted. Har har har. I'm busy, okay? >_< >>>

*But not really

[thezmon221]

Alright, I'm a bit burnt out from reading about 25-26 pages, so I'll pick it up later (as in, in an hour or two probably). I suppose I'll give a general list of my reads on everyone. I'm not going to include a basis for them, and probably won't provide it right now because I've only read half the game thus far and will probably have another 5-10 pages by the time I read page 54. It's not in any particular order.

Spoiler: Reads

TOWN
ArcAngel
BeautyAndTheBeast
Cephrir
Slandaar
DLG
Bulbazak
Red Ryu
Amethyst Kitty

NULL
CrashTextDummie
Nero Cain
Bacde
Seanald
Om The Destroyer
Kublai Khan
Baby Spice
Desperado
Syryana
Kublai Khan

SCUM
fuzzybutternut
Oversoul
Nachomomma8
ActionDan
EddieFenix
Thor665

Just about all of my reads are pretty weak. I'll have a good feeling for the game hopefully before I actually hit this page.

[thezmon221]

Too bad I already said I wasn't going to write up a case. Don't like it? Deal with it. kkthxbai. All I'll say is that post 1340 doesn't help your cause in the least bit.

[thezmon221]

I AM CAUGHT UP

Well, actually, I skipped 5-10 pages somewhere around 30 and 35, but I was able to get back in the loop. Sorry if you're disappointed with that, but I'm tired as hell from both school and reading these last 57 pages.

So, without further ado, here are my reads*:

TOWN:
[ArcAngel, BeautyAndTheBeast, Slandaar, DLG, Bulbazak, Amethyst Kitty, Nero Cain, CrashTextDummie, Red Ryu, Bacde]

NULL:
[Seanald, Kublai Khan, Desperado, Syryana, Nachomomma8, Cephrir]

MAFIA:
[fuzzybutternut, Oversoul, EddieFenix, Thor665, Om The Destroyer, Baby Spice, Hanzo_5]

*The order of the players is in no way indicative of the strength of my reads.

So, I'll now elaborate on reads that people want elaboration on, but I'm not going to elaborate on everything purely because there are 24 players I have to read and it's even more work and I'm tired.

Here's some notes from the pad of Thez:
--For the longest time I had Nacho penned as scum, and almost jumped onto his wagon for mainly the whole Oversould fiasco. However, his bout with the reads and wanting to lynch Desperado turned my head and convinced me that he might not be who he says he is. It is notable that every single person on that wagon I have as town (Desperado is null).
--Bacde is so obviously town right now, so if you think he's scum you should probably quit this game. BatB is pretty town too.
--Baby Spice is strangely very lurky. Also not quite so... worried. For lack of a better word/phrase.

Oh, and I felt I should address this:

@Thezmon

Your reasonless list is nothing but filler. To paraphrase you, you said "Hey im here and im doing stuff, Im not done yet so it looks like im not doing anything".

Im bringing this to light because I see it as fluff and everyone else should too.

I dont know why your fluffy. But I dont care for it. Your life no linger matters to me. Plz fix that.

It's too bad I don't care. Maybe you should try putting something non-fluff yourself instead of calling out other fluff. My post had more content than yours. Your recent posts don't do much justice for you IME either.

Alright, so now I'm going to wrap up this post with this:
VOTE: fuzzy

I don't like your overall mentality with the game at this point. You've been really dodgy this game. I don't find any value in any of your posts. Your reads are safer than OS's information was. Gut read? Really. Develop something. Try. Have AP Exams? Cool story bro, so do I. In fact, I have an exam on Thursday. You don't see me dodging the game and making useless third-party comments.

I feel fuzzy's gone unnoticed, and you should all notice him through my post. Cephrir's confrontation with him was a start. Oh, and I want a reads list from him too.

[thezmon221]

naw, fuzzy hasn't been ignored. I's sheep that if I didn't want Nacho blood. What's your BS case?

There's not much in it. She's one of those weaker cases because it is more of my speculation from meta. She seems less worried, as I said before. More direct in targeting a lynch. She is constantly behind. Being behind is not overtly a scum tell, but when you're back on page 19 when everyone else is on page 30. I checked the time dates, and there's a two day difference, so... I understand legal obligations and all, which is why I didn't press it more.

She is also a lot more speculative on things and is not very aggressive. She comments on posts and all, yeah, but I didn't see much in the form of asking questions, making too many comments that aren't calling someone's read, etc. She voted for Ryu when his wagon was rising, but it IS interesting right now that she is on Ceph on her own.

[thezmon221]

Yes, I've played with Nacho before.

I also considered Ceph to be null, so that part isn't exactly an issue. His read overall has been a tossup for me. I felt he had good motivation in his posts, but Jiffy convinced me of a light for other posts of him, which is why he's null and not one way or the other. He showed a distaste for fuzzy when fuzzy made the unnecessary, and rather opportunistic pseudo-contribution, post, which I'm all for. Whether he would have voted if I didn't or not, I won't know, but I don't feel the sheep is explicitly a scummy sheep regardless.

Besides, we still have almost a week, so we have time. The fact of the matter is, I don't think Nacho is a good enough lynch at this point in time. His beginning was crap, but I like his recent posts, even if I don't agree with them.

<<< Actually, it's over a week--almost two weeks, in fact. Deadline for D1 was set at three weeks, not two, meaning you've still got a week and a half (12 days as of this edit) left. Deadline isn't next Monday, but the Monday after that. >>>

[thezmon221]

Would you mind providing a case for me? Unless 1422 is the case. I'll go and read back over his ISO again for you (as much as I'd hate to read more right now), but I'm not totally convinced. I have him only at null, and probably one of the scummier nulls, because like I said, I had him pegged as scum for a while. It's only recently that I changed my read on him from scum to null, and even that isn't a big jump for a lot of these reads. I did contemplate this aspect:

I'm actually thinking that the scum AREN'T bussing since we have people like Thor, AA9, and CTD in this thread scumming it up and trying to actively prevent the nacho lynch

as a part of the reason why Nacho is a good wagon, but I also contemplated that there are 24 people in this game, so I figured anywhere from 6-8 scum. Account for that the Red Ryu lynch, which is, assuming Nacho is scum, most likely a counter-wagon attempt by his scumbuddies (which is partly why I left, but also because of my contrasting read). Why did he not join the wagon, as there is a case that he could follow along there. Instead, he went for Desperado, who was rather in the shadows of the game. Seems like a strange way to counter-wagon as scum.

While I admit that I don't have too much experience with Nacho, as I've only played 2 or 3 games with him, I don't really like to trust metas too much. A common theme for me is that if I have a scum/town meta on a person, it's going to be a null unless I REALLY know that person (as in, probably at least 7-8 games with them with varying alignments).

Spoiler: <<< Mod-edited-votecount >>>

Nachomamma8 - 7 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Amethyst Kitty, Slandaar, Desperado, BeautyAndTheBeast)
Red Ryu - 4 (Oversoul, Thor665, Bulbazak, Syryana)
fuzzybutternut - 2 (thezmon221, Cephrir)
Bulbazak - 1 (fuzzybutternut)
Cephrir - 1 (Baby Spice)
DLG - 1 (CrashTextDummie)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 1 (Kublai Khan)
Bacde - 1 (Om the Destroyer)

Not Voting - 4 (Seanald, Hanzo_5, ArcAngel9, EddieFenix)

[thezmon221]

are you classifying SKs or arsons or whatever as scum?

If you didn't know, I play on another site, which is where I get the majority of my experience. Over there, we follow the 25-33 rule, so 33% of 24 is 8. I figured that was our worst case scenario, but it was probably more like 6.

[thezmon221]

You promise you've played with nacho? Because that is just something scum-nacho would never do

I think all of my games have been town with him. If there was a scum game, then it was at least a year and a half ago. I understand that one-sided meta is bad, but I could at least pick out something that was... off key.

on MS the low number is more like 20% instead of 25%

Duly noted.

1422 is probably the best iteration of the case against nacho as of right now

Alright. Like I said, I'll read over his ISO, as when I was reading the almost 60 pages I didn't specifically target any one person for further analysis (with the exception of the recent fuzzy vote, as he is my strongest, so I had to go back and make sure I wasn't putting words into his mouth), so we'll see.

PEDIT:

Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

Who is bussing Nacho? If you're saying that the RR wagon is a bus, then we have greatly differing definitions.

[thezmon221]

The Nacho wagon took off after Thor joined the RR wagon. If anything Nacho looks like a strong counter to RR. It's even lead by RR, something BCade says is scummy.

*groan*

I went through this thread too fast. Give me an hour and all the events will be sorted out with me (sorry, I gotta eat too).

PEDIT:

mollie and Majiffy, I keep mixing up your posts, and it gets on my nerves.

PEDIT2:

yeah hanz posts do suck I'ma run an ISO

Best way to start is literally by recognizing that he said my reads list at the halfway mark of my reading was fluff, but providing nothing valuable himself.

PEDIT3: Damnit, stop posting when I'm trying to post.

[thezmon221]

mollie and Majiffy, I keep mixing up your posts, and it gets on my nerves.

How

.

Because I keep forgetting about the capitalize stuff. Then a while after I remember.

Okay, so I read through Nacho's ISO and am not overly impressed with Bacde's read. However, something I want to address:

Nacho, why did you post 5 analyses, and then wait another... 26-27 hours before posting the rest?

Yeah, probably your "Nacho ... isn't exactly a scumread". Herp derp Occam's Razor.

Honestly, I HAVE been considering that, and it will probably be a large basis for my vote in the event I DO vote him. (Yes, I know this wasn't aimed at me)

[thezmon221]

Also, how was that helping me steer the game?

Mwu-hahaha! I have fooled town into thinking I went to bed...the FOOLS!

Haha

ZMON, WAI ARE WE TOWN?

I'm not very familiar with either head of the hydra, so I went strictly by my analysis of your posts with none of the influence. With that being said... I've felt you have good motivation behind your actions. You look like you're scumhunting a lot and actually attributing to discussions on a rather consistent basis. Apart from that, I don't really have a reason to call you scum. For most of the nulls, I either don't have information to make a call, or I have both town and scum reads, which is why you wouldn't be null.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bulbazak

Om no we aren't lynching Bacde his slot is obvious town

~

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but so is Bulba.

^^^
Maybe not obvtown imho, but definitely townier than a lot of people.

I personally don't have much experience with playing as a hydra, but shouldn't you guys like... be on the same page? Seems kind of strange you would go out and have a little root of confusion emitted there.

[thezmon221]

I personally don't have much experience with playing as a hydra, but shouldn't you guys like... be on the same page? Seems kind of strange you would go out and have a little root of confusion emitted there.

I've never been in a hydra where we didn't disagree on more things than we agree on.

I guess I was referring to where one explicitly defies the other and works on his own agenda for a post such as Om/Destroyer's most recent bout.

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Pride.

Screw pride. We don't need to be down -4 in two days.

[thezmon221]

So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.

Hello, Fuzzy. Where have you been? Why haven't you been responding to our posts? Are you scum?

Probably just a prod dodge in disguise. Curious as to why he hasn't responded to the efforts to lynch him, nor anything that actually matters other than his speculation on wagons. Obvious speculation at that.

[thezmon221]

crap,

well now OS looks really bad to me

ok I need a tribal council right now:

can nacho still be scum despite OS looking really really bad (like really scummy bad)?

Survey says:

Were we to garner the support for another lynch, and provided they were a scum read of yours (such as OS), would you actually consider switching your vote, or would you be stubborn enough to stick to Nacho? I don't really see it with Nacho, and I'm not willing to follow your meta claim of him.

So, in short:

• Nacho's pushing massclaim, he hated it before as town, therefore he's scum
  
• The Oversoul case is shit
  
• Nacho isn't obviously town
  
• Nacho is usually more useful than this

-snip-

TLDR: Pick one of Red, Ceph and Oversoul. Then click reply, click vote, and type the name you picked. Then submit.

This is the thing that really caught my eye. It sounds to me like you are convinced Nacho is scum, but then don't support his lynch. So what is your position on him?

Has Oversoul tried moving his vote at all? I'm pretty sure he has just been sitting on that vote.

Hehe. I guess I was right that Red Ryu is miffed that I am voting him despite everything. It is a shame really. I was getting town feelings for Ryu's attack against Nacho and subsequent defense of himself from Bulb and co.

That's... actually interesting to note. Maybe Ryu is offended scum?

[thezmon221]

But ArcAngel isn't scum. I'm pretty sure about that. Besides, there's no need to lynch you in the event Nacho flips town. That would just add unnecessary deaths to our tally.

In another direction, you didn't really answer my question. If we garnered the support for a lynch on someone you have a scum read on that isn't Nacho, would you lynch them? Would you take even that "slight leap of faith" that they could be town, but you think they're scum? The issue I have with your reads is that I don't like how 99% of your vote is based on a meta of him, and that I don't think Arc is scum.

Prove to me that your read on Nacho is much, much more than meta and I'd consider it. Until then, I'm not willing to budge unless I have to settle for consensus.

[thezmon221]

I've already expressed that I'm VERY certain that AA9 is scum, and I would be willing to lynch that

My bad, I read that as, "I WOULD consider an ArcAngel lynch, BUT I only want a Nacho lynch." However looking from the rest of the post (which I snipped out), you seem to be heading in the right track.

As for Post 1595...

Why is he playing to manipulate people, instead of just outting his reads and explaining them and attempting to get others to follow his reads?

I've always felt that attempting to get others to follow one's reads is a form of manipulation, but I understand what you are referring to here. Nonetheless, I've felt that manipulation is more a player tell than a scum tell. Power roles try to manipulate people into thinking they aren't who they are generally until they get enough information to out themselves. Mafia does have more of a willingness to manipulate, I suppose, but I know I personally like to manipulate people to follow my reads, though DO have good intentions behind them.

Also, why did he simultaneously say he is "not happy about his reads" but also demand that I "follow his reads"?

Those two ideas directly contradict. Would a townie have both of those attitudes? I doubt it

I actually really like this point. But do you have more? You seemed to have more earlier when I first asked you, and this seems like simply a recent example. Impress me. Make me want to lynch Nacho.

Speaking of the second paragraph I wrote, where the fuck is fuzzy with a reads list, and any sense of care for the game?

[thezmon221]

Thezmon also rubs me the wrong way. He's all "your points are good, but I need just

a little bit

more to get me to vote him". It feels forced. He hasn't expressed a town read on Nacho, so I don't see why the existing arguments shouldn't be enough to turn him into a scumread. Nor why he's not rereading Nacho himself to figure out if he's a good lynch. Right now it looks like he's just hedging his bets, hesitant to join the major wagon in the game. I did have a scum read on his predecessor which probably makes me biased when it comes to reading his posts, but this looks plainly scummy to me.

One-two viable points and an ass load of meta is not good enough for me. I don't need a "little bit" more, I need a decent amount more.

Sure, I haven't expressed Nacho as a town read, but he isn't necessarily a scum read either. I like my vote where it is right now, and nobody's been able to provide a solid case for me. Bacde has just sputtered out a point periodically among the "VOTE NACHO VOTE NACHO HE'S NOT TOWN HE'S SCUM META META META" crap.

Thez

- I found Thez catch up post very weird, especially his town list, null list and mafia list.. that’s quite a shock.. How could DLG be in his town list? What did that person said anything in this game that looked town? His attack on me is pointless and after that he didn’t even said anything to support other conversations nor did any sort of scum hunting.

Reading DLG is town is some sort of record for THEz play..

What did you actually find weird about my catch-up post, or is it just the DLG read? I have also not found anything scummy about DLG, apart from some inactivity throughout the game. Overall I've felt he was generally pro-town in approach. Sounds to me like [Read the below comment to an extension quote]

As for the bolded: What are you trying to say?

DLG

–Totally scumm… but not sure worth lynching this one today!!!

Smells like typical OMGUS of Arc again.

[thezmon221]

Cmon Thez, you and me know very well that "Town" you just don't read someone town bluntly. How could you say DLG is town, I would understand if you have said if he was null but "Town", No way. There is no support to your read, Just because you didn't find anything scummy about him doesn't make him town, and you know this well. Moreover, He didn't say anything much to give you scum slips. If you're really the town, I want you to take a look at this reasoning to vote me and the timing of his post, there is so much happening in the game at the time of his post but he had just one thing to address, that is me? out of all the other players and on-going wagons? How could i read someone like this as town? please ask yourself again.

"Town" me doesn't read someone town bluntly? How many fucking games have you played where I flipped town? Zero. It's the same issue I had in other games; you THINK you know a meta on me, but you're completely wrong. You base it on the fact that I played scum in a multiball situation, and then played scum again in a single situation. I've yet to flip town to you so... yeah. Nice try, but that's not something you can hold over me.

As for how I would call DLG town, I think that you’re wrong, simple as that. I understand where you’re coming from, but a person does not need to be involved in every facet of the game to be town. To me he looks as if he is actually scumhunting or trying too (at least in the earlier parts of the game, though seems like he starts to get a bit overwhelmed when things pick up). It looks to me like he really thought you reacted bad in the instance and believed you weren’t scumhunting. Like I said before in a different context, you seem to have the typical OMGUS bug I’ve seen out of you. I don’t expect you personally to read him as town based on what I DO know of you, but it’s not like I’m trying to actually push my read down people’s throats. Why the AtE in such an instance?

I'm clawing for reasons to unvote you and vote for desperado you know

I'd so much prefer it for both of us to be town and I want to believe

but you aren't helping me here

you feel like scum to me love

WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH.

WOAH.

What happened to you being super convinced that Nacho was scum? Like, seemingly 100% convinced? But at its height you decide you want to go another way?

[thezmon221]

who are you suspicious of thezmon?

Do you want all of my scum reads or just my stronger ones?

Like seriously, why is no one else on the nacho wagon arguing the way I am?

this is bullshit

Yeah, I understand how you feel. The fact that it's gotten this high with dominantly you arguing for it, and by meta nonetheless, made me want to reconsider my reads. However, as it has gotten bigger, more of my scummier reads HAVE drifted onto the wagon.

[thezmon221]

So the scumreads, Bacde...

[thezmon221]

I'ma be discussing a lot of this game w/ you/B&tB I think because trying to talk to anyone else is driving me crazy

Don't you feel like you'll be missing out on a lot in the event either one of them is scum, or they die? Then what do you do? Besides, why do you think AA9 is scum anyway? I think she's one of the more obvious townies.

People that thought AA9's post was "good" or "townie": Bulbazak, Cephrir, AK, Slandaar

People who didn't: B&B, me, Thezemon

I didn't think they were scummy, per say. I just thought they weren't good. It seemed to me like a more typical ArcAngel since she likes to OMGUS everybody.

Yes, Yes, I know.
Can someone explain to me wtf happened and who got modkilled?

I'll have reads up this weekend. I PROMISE.

Can we lynch this now? Not paying attention to the game, is barely even in the game, and has held off on his reads for what, the better part of the week now? Sounds like scummy stalling to me. Not to mention his prior post, Post 1719, looks far more like a prod dodge than it does somebody who's actually playing.

[thezmon221]

Ever had three AP tests in a week? No? Didn't think so.

The correct answer is yes. And I've still had more than enough time for anything recreational.

[thezmon221]

That's the thing about it though, thez. It's NOT AA9's typical OMGUS. Last time I played with her (she was town, Tenements), any time anyone attacked her she'd immediately go nuts; case, vote, analysis on said person. Her entire play Day 1 consisted of OMGUS'ng the hell out of like four people. She then lurked for the rest of the game, until LyLo when she showed up with some off the cuff nonsense reads.

I felt that the fact that she called DLG scummy, and then consequently called me scummy (or implied, anyways) due to the fact that I defended DLG as town was rather usual of what I've seen of her town play.

[thezmon221]

Y\we are lynching scumcho and if he flips town (he won't) we are lynching me next

100%

there is no other option

So... you're telling me that if nacho flips town, then you

want

us to lynch you next?

...

...

Do you see the problem with this?

[thezmon221]

What read, exactly, is he pushing? Seems to me, by post 1676 that he is pretty okay with his Desperado lynch.

[thezmon221]

Varsoon is town because he's playing exactly like he did in his very first game, which I was scum in.

Who is Varsoon?

I'm not exactly happy with my reads yet.

That's fucking stupid. I want you to follow my reads.

You see... I know the context of these quotes, and the way you're perceiving them isn't right. He's not happy with a lot of his reads, but he does want people to follow his actual reads. Care to show me what reads he has explicitly contradicted himself with?

[thezmon221]

thezmon if you haven't voted nacho by now you are never going to do it

stop pretending like you care what I have to say

Not true, actually. I was awaiting fuzzy's reds post and seeing what I gather from that before I decided if I actually wanted to take my vote off of him and paste it on Nacho. Doesn't mean I don't want an answer from you, nor does it mean that I don't want to see the integrity behind your case against Nacho.

[thezmon221]

Oversoul:

Fake claim gambit.
Plenty of activity.
Retracted claim.
Slow on analysis.
Analysis given is poor and superficial.
Claims boredom and disinterest due to waiting for responses.
Posted that he got a lot of response and that he enjoys the thrill of gambitting.
Soft-claiming that he shouldn't be vigged.

If I didn't want a fuzzy lynch as badly as I do, I'd totally be game for this lynch. I think fuzzy's the way to go, though, and everyone should vote for him.

I decided, that whether KK is town or not, this point is still a legitimate point:

If we don't lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll be beating the war drums tomorrow.
If we do lynch Nachomamma8 today, you'll... just go off whatever is posted Day 2?

And I thought about it... and I probably won't vote Nacho today. I don't see it. The people on the wagon don't seem to actually be engaged with the wagon, and it overall looks like a shitstorm.

It's been a more gradual change (as shown by me not pushing Oversoul to hell recently), but that post was what brought the read through in the end.

Under what circumstances did the scumread deteriorate?

[thezmon221]

Unvote
Vote: AA9

I can vouch for Syry's meta read on AA9. In Mini 1426 town-AA9 went V/LA late in D1, came back to a wagon on her and immediately OMGUS'd the wagon starter by quoting their vote and beginning with "scum trying to frame me and get me lynched in my absence." Her immediate frame of mind was 100% OMGUS.

And I agree with OS and Sy about what bacde said...calling attention to your attempt to prove that you aren't showing scum motivation is scum motivated.

This is a bull shit reason... Can this can be any obvious then an oppurtunist vote????
VOTE: Unvote

You like me doing OMGUS right.. Here you get the 200%.... Die scum!!!

VOTE: Desperado

Yup, there’s the AA9 I’ve played with in the past.

Cmon thez, seriously?
I didn't even call you scum yet and your getting very defensive about it. And the thing about meta, its not necessary for me to play with you to understand it. I have sneacked into your town games especially the Mini one where you were a Town cop. So, Just cut the drama here. And you need not to get to this subject each time when i bring meta word. And remember that Meta only stand as reference, its not the read. The reads are mostly going to be base on how a player has been playing not becuz that person being scum in X game town in Y game. I don't like going over on this subject again. I hope you get this now.

Do you think I'm stupid? I know what a meta read is. If you paid attention in a few of the games you've played with me, you'd know that I don't like to base cases around metas. I already told you that I only use it as a bit of reference. Why are you telling me that again?

As for the Mini Town Cop game, yeah that was a bad game for me. Like, it was pretty terrible. None of the games on MS.net where I'm town are that great for meta, you'd be better off at home site. However, I lost a bunch of games when there was that crash a while back which lost a bunch of my games.

And I am still suprised how you read DLG is as town, Explain what sort of Scum hunting he did. He pushed his vote on me for no reason. there was abousletly nothing that made sense in what he said. You're once again saying that I am OMGUSing him. Do you realise that my vote is currently and Red Ryu not DLG? the reason i have given him this oppurtunity so that he could come and explain himself.

Do you know what OMGUSing is? Do you know that OMGUSing does not have to have a vote? It doesn't. You were, in fact, passively OMGUSing him, and softly declaring me scum for it. I can read between the lines, y'know.

As for the vote on you, I am going to flat out say you’re wrong. I don’t mean to defend him here, but you’ve kind of forced me into the situation. I saw reasoning behind his post, and I felt the vote itself made sense. I’ll even post the quote for you, and maybe a smidgen of commentary:

VOTE: ArcAngel9
I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of scumhunting.

We should massclaim. I am not joking.

Raise of hands, everyone in favor.

are you crazy.. No claims plz!!!!!!!!!!

Mastin2, I don't have any issue with HD hydra.

This is the kind of reaction I expect to a proposed massclaim from scum. Belittle the idea, but take no initiative to figure out why someone is proposing such an idea.

Also, rather than any commentary about any of the content that developed pre-game, or up to that point, an aside to the mod that served no purpose.

^wow, that VCA is just mind blowing. Great job Mastin

This post, in particular, gave me scum feelings towards ArcAngel9. Absolutely no commentary on the game state, no attempts to figure anything out. Prefering to interact with the mod over interacting with the game and other players is not Town motivated.

Her later commentary that the Oversoul wagon is bad 'cuz it's soooo quick again betrays her lack of interest in figuring out anyone's alignment.

Yep, yep, this is scummy behavior from someone who got a scum role PM. Let's lynch her.

In his first aspect, I have a similar thought process to him, though I could probably argue I wasn’t as shocked about it as he was to you, perhaps due to me having more experience in playing with you. He felt that it was scummy, and rightfully so, that you didn’t want to claim, but then provided no initiative for anything else. Why is that a scummy reason to YOU? Or is it an empty OMGUS?

As for later, he’s right. You didn’t do much scumhunting earlier on. You sort of spoke bits and pieces about mostly the mod. Note also that in Post 491 that he acknowledges little recognition of your play. So at face value, I’d say yeah, it’s a good reason to vote for you.

However, the problem now is that it’s been a while since he’s talked about you, or anything really, and I’m pretty sure he’s due to actually be replaced. So things change, and maybe he’s seen more of you to determine a town-AA9, or maybe move to null, or even keep as scum.

[thezmon221]

Welcome PV.

AA, no response to my previous post? Kind of expected you to have done so, even if it it wasn't all inherently a question. >.>

[thezmon221]

You de-bolded one word. Obvious scum tactic right there.

I mean, what's the point of debolding the word unless you're hiding something you can't defend? Despo caught him there and then he went and ignored it because he knew it was true...

[thezmon221]

Peditx4: A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

It's too bad I had no intentions of hopping on the wagon anyway. Just a little input in a slightly more in-depth manner. I still don't really buy the Nacho case anyway.

[thezmon221]

Peditx4: A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

It's too bad I had no intentions of hopping on the wagon anyway. Just a little input in a slightly more in-depth manner. I still don't really buy the Nacho case anyway.

Wait, you were serious with this?

Yeah. I didn't like the case that others put up, and then I went through your ISO at least three times and still didn't find something to satisfy me. In the end, I felt that your later posts also made up for the massclaim stuff, which honestly wasn't too strong to begin with.

hey guys lets unvote nacho and lynch desp plz

ok thanks

What... the hell... happened...?

First you were tunneling Nacho hardcore, which was evident by the fiasco where you missed OS saying he fake-claimed his role. And now you're flipping ship and voting for an effective counter-wagon?

Man, I'm really getting doubts about your tunneling motivation before.

@Bulb: Do you have more than the confirmation bias point? I think that's pretty weak.

@Whoever hasn't given a reason: Why are you on the wagon? Even sheeping would be a reason.

[thezmon221]

Side-note, I did a calculation. Day One started in post 201. We're at 2133 as of this post. Doing the math, we're only a couple pages short of being among the longest day ones ever. (What is it with Mastin games and being the longest? ) It'd take breaking 1980, and we're at just over 1930.

Then I get to be a part of both the longest AND second longest games!

And I played that game with you, too...

<<< Among the longest, not THE longest.
We'd need 1990 to beat Phables Death Note which is #5. To secure the #1 spot would take ~6 pages more than that, which right now would mean ~8 pages needed to beat out Street Racers.
Which, mind you, given current activity and the deadline being a week away, is not out of the question. >>>

[thezmon221]

Oh yeah, you were there too. Sorry I forgot

Yeah. I didn't like the case that others put up, and then I went through your ISO at least three times and still didn't find something to satisfy me. In the end, I felt that your later posts also made up for the massclaim stuff, which honestly wasn't too strong to begin with.

I was referring mostly to the "why would he unbold something that he can't hide?" bit earlier. I assumed it was a joke, but others thought not.

I wasn't overly serious; it was more speculation than anything else. Something about me is that I think out loud a lot, and that was one of the instances where I didn't entirely support the argument, but I contemplated why it would happen out loud. Now, I didn't try what you said where you quoted it and instant replied or whatever, but I kind of assumed it didn't work. It merely was that is seemed strange to me why you would decide to unbold a word which added emphasis where if one were to do an ISO of you, they would be more prone to avoiding such an instance.

[thezmon221]

@Bulb: Do you have more than the confirmation bias point? I think that's pretty weak.

How is that weak? Desperado implied knowledge of Nacho being town when he said Nacho was suffering from confirmation bias. Since he has said that he thinks that Nacho is scum, this can only mean that Desperado scum slipped when trying to discredit Nacho's push, and has thereby confirmed Nacho to be town. Ergo, Desperado is scum. How is that hard to understand?

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

thezmon is giving me scummy vibes, here is my impression of his thought processes this game
thezmon: dude why are you tunneling nacho
bacde: (gives reasons)
thezmon: those reasons are good, but not quite good enough, do you have more?
bacde: (gives more reasons)
thezmon: ooh thats good, but I'm just not gonna place my vote there for some reason, I don't think the reasons are good enough
bacde unvotes nacho
thezmon: it doesn't make any sense that you unvoted nacho! Why would you unvote nacho if you had all those great reasons?
--
basically, why would someone who has been unwilling to vote nacho all game think that its weird that I pulled back on that push?

Note: Condensed to avoid unnecessary length in post.

1. This is a misrep. I told you that you had a few good reasons, but it wasn't enough to sway me. It appeared to me that you came to a sort of confirmation bias yourself, and that almost all of your play is on meta. The fact that you whored meta turned me off for half of your case. I did my own research, and I didn't think Nacho was scum.

2. Why the fuck is it scummy that I question you being flip-floppity in such a case? You hammer onto Nacho all game long going:
"NACHO IS SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM! LYNCH HIM! LYNCH NACHO! NACHO ISN'T TOWN-NACHO, HE'S SCUM-NACHO!"

And then all of a sudden, when support for the Despo wagon is seemingly picking up you go:

"Guys, I don't want to lynch Nacho anymore. I think he's town and Despo's probably scummy."

You see, in such an instance of switching from Despo to AA9, it's not necessarily a scummy instance. But when you switched from Nacho to Despo in such a quick turnaround, you can bet it's scummy.

I went through an ISO of you looking for things on Despo, and here’s what I found:
Up to Post #1674: Brief mentions of Despo, but not much.
Post #1674: You look for a reason to take your vote off of Nacho and put it on Despo.
Post #1759: Completely back on the Nacho-Scum mentality, with no mention of Despo.
Post #2039: Next mention of Despo. As a vote. Very little indication of a waning read on Nacho, and absolutely no indication of a growth of interest in Despo.

So why do/did you think Despo is/was scummy?

[thezmon221]

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

[thezmon221]

So why do/did you think Despo is/was scummy?

the vote had more to do with thinking

nacho was kinda townie

honestly at this point

I don't care who we lynch out of nacho

/despo/AA9

I'd most prefer AA9 though

Does anybody else see the problem with the bolded? Bacde, why would you be okay with lynching someone you think is townie?

[thezmon221]

But a Nero lynch is better. C'mon Nacho.

Have you shown why you think Nero is scum? If so, could you redirect me? If not, could you tell me? It seems like a novel, and maybe slightly random, read.

You know, I was about to really be on board with the Baby Spice lynch. Her post #2197 was truly terrible, as pointed out by Syry. Like, I had written out my vote as well as my reasons for the vote, only to then see her rage-replace vote. However, the frustration she inhibited and her replace out makes me want to wait for penguin to post some stuff for us since we still have a bit under a week.

[thezmon221]

VOTE: nachomamma8

nvm he's scum

It's astounding how quick you are to hop from one wagon to the next. Two popular wagons, with one being the counter of the other, no less. Have you ever actually put thought into your cases and rationally thought it out, or are you doing this at the spur of the moment?

I completely understand if I've shot my credibility in the foot

You got that right.

[thezmon221]

thezmon why aren't you pushing on fbn harder?

why haven't you been trying to convince me to vote for fbn?

Because you seem so hellbent on Nacho and Despo. Besides, I've already presented the case and have been rather impatiently waiting for him.

rational and spur of the moment are not mutually exclusive

They generally are. A rational case and a spur of the moment case are generally rather exclusive. However, in this instance it's not necessarily exclusive since you had a previous case. So let me rephrase my question, then.

Do you actually think about where you put your vote, or do you put it merely wherever you wish at that singular time?

[thezmon221]

Confirmation bias itself, I will agree with Bulb, generally pertains to the fact that the person committing confirmation bias (in this case, Nacho) is town, since generally scum doesn't need to fit the read to a case as they know your alignment. Due to this, it seemed that you submitted to him being town in this instance with the belief of his confirmation bias.

What the hell? You just said this:

I know I personally have been able to deduce in an argument I am in that a person has succumbed to confirmation bias when I am town. Just because he says that Nacho is succumbed to such doesn't entirely mean that Despo is scum. While the part where he flipped his read on Nacho is scummy itself, the confirmation bias point simply is weak. Scum and town alike can come to the same conclusion. Scum are going to be more accurate, yes, because they know the alignments. However, a town can make the same conclusion if they are able to get into a third perspective of the argument, which is what a townie should be able to do in such an argument.

So you have personal experience, as town, with being able to deduce that another player is resorting to confirmation bias, and that me saying that Nacho is using confirmation bias doesn't necessarily make me scum. So which is it?

Your question doesn't make sense. It sounds like it's all the same statement, to me. I never believed you were scummy for declaring usage of confirmation bias. I said you were scummy because of the exact reason of the first quote. Generally when one states the other is using confirmation bias, it is submitting to the fact that they are town. In this case, you submitted to Nacho being town. However, you kept your scumread on him, which shows an abnormal waver in your read. It appeared as if you had an unjustified 180 flip on him, but now it looks like your application of confirmation bias is merely shit.

Confirmation bias is just about always going to be a town/pro-town (including most survivors and other roles that fit in this category, but are not explicitly town) action. As I said before, the scum knows whether you are town or scum. This means that the factor of confirmation bias is completely taken out with them, since they already know your alignment. Confirmation bias is the conceived notion that they have already determined your alignment and developed a case around it. They don't know your alignment, but they think you are X alignment, which is generally scum. It is very hard to feign for most mafia players unless they are very scummy.

@Waylan: Do you still want my actual, typed case, or are you content with the quote that Cephrir (?) provided?

[thezmon221]

@ Bolded: or yours is too narrow. Confirmation bias is approaching an argument with a preconceived conclusion and then fitting the evidence to fit your conclusion. If the scum's job is to secure MLs, and they must do this while also appearing to be town, then please,

please

tell me why it is

completely implausible

for scum to employ confirmation bias in their argument, and how this correlation is so strong that, even though I've repeatedly said the opposite, I just don't know what the fuck I'm talking about and I scumslipped end of story why aren't more people voting him.

It's impossible for scum to employ confirmation bias because they

already know

your alignment. The only way they could possibly commit confirmation bias is through saying that you are so townie and everything you do is townie, however you accused Nacho of the very obvious. Scum already know that X person is town, so they can't go in with a confirmation bias that said person is scum, because they know that this person isn't scum. The only preconceived notion they may possess is that the person is obvtown. The only possible instance where they could ever actually commit confirmation bias in a scum way (being what Nacho supposedly did) would be a bus, because he then actually has the notion that you are scum, and is able to fit his evidence to scumminess.

Also, my understanding is that Nacho IS a very good player who WOULD be fully capable of feigning it, so why is it so hard for you and Bulb and Ceph to see my side of this? Why are you so content to just tell me what I meant and vote me on a nonexistent scumslip? It's lazy, and its narrow minded.

I never knew I was voting for you. And by that I mean, I never voted for you. I don't think you realized that I was on your side in this instance until you unnecessarily blew it up. I challenged Bulb's point against you by saying it was weak, but then I made a side statement saying how confirmation bias is submitting to the fact that a person is town.

[thezmon221]

Post 201 was the Day Opening post, Haylen.

[thezmon221]

-snip-

It's impossible for scum to employ confirmation bias because they

already know

your alignment. The only way they could possibly commit confirmation bias is through saying that you are so townie and everything you do is townie, however you accused Nacho of the very obvious. Scum already know that X person is town, so they can't go in with a confirmation bias that said person is scum, because they know that this person isn't scum. The only preconceived notion they may possess is that the person is obvtown. The only possible instance where they could ever actually commit confirmation bias in a scum way (being what Nacho supposedly did) would be a bus, because he then actually has the notion that you are scum, and is able to fit his evidence to scumminess.

This is not a satisfactory explanation. If Nacho is scum, he must secure MLs. In order to secure MLs, he must get townies lynched. How does he accomplish this without garnering suspicion himself? By doing it a townie way, in this case by exhibiting confirmation bias in his treatment of me.

In the process of appearing to be town, Nacho has resorted to a logically faulty approach in which he starts with the premise that I am scum and fits the evidence to his conclusion. Your adherence to the assertion that "scum can't do it because they know your alignment already and its so hard to fake!" when the reason that confirmation bias is such a logically faulty approach is precisely due to how easy and disingenuous it is AND the scum's success in any given game is entirely dependent on their ability to fake towntells and not get lynched is where my issue lies.

Bottomline: I refuse to accept that scum are incapable of conf bias, and if calling Nacho out for using it in his argument against me gets me lynched then so be it.

So what you're saying is you're stubborn enough to not even remotely recognize my point? That is, after all, what your large font statement is saying. And also, you seem to not read me correctly. I did NOT say that confirmation bias could not be committed by scum because it's "too hard," I'm saying they can't commit it because they know they are scum and that you are town. They can't go in with this preconceived notion that X is scum because they AREN'T scum, but the player making the "case" is. There's no confirmation bias involved with their case, only manipulation of their points, twisting of their words (which is kind of the same), and sometimes a tunneling which only strengthens their points due to the in-your-face attitude presented and the fact that a lot of people who fall for it don't actually go back and reread the actual context of the quote.

Sorry, I took your cheerleading of Bulb to be a tacit approval of his vote. You challenged Bulb's point as weak, and then...immediately agreed with it and have three separate responses that are in support of Bulb's point. So why are you simultaneously backing up Bulb's point, which you thought was weak, while claiming that you "were on my side?" I don't understand.

It was merely a side note of mine, and I had no intention of actually arguing it. I challenged Bulb's premise for the post, and then, like I said, you blew up the point and forced me to argue against you in a way that supposedly puts me in conjunction with Bulb. I still don't think you're scummy, just that one instance.

[thezmon221]

This:

Confirmation bias is the conceived notion that they have already determined your alignment and developed a case around it. They don't know your alignment, but they think you are X alignment, which is generally scum.

It is very hard to feign for most mafia players unless they are very scummy.

Reads to me like you are supporting your assertion (that scum can't have confirmation bias because they already know the other player's alignment) by saying that it is too hard to fake unless they are really good. Can you clarify what you meant by that?

...they can't commit it because they know they are scum and that you are town. They can't go in with this preconceived notion that X is scum because they AREN'T scum, but the player making the "case" is. There's no confirmation bias involved with their case, only manipulation of their points, twisting of their words (which is kind of the same), and sometimes a tunneling which only strengthens their points due to the in-your-face attitude presented and the fact that a lot of people who fall for it don't actually go back and reread the actual context of the quote.

While I suppose they could conceivably commit a feigned confirmation bias, it is much more likely to look like this instead, and isn't an actual confirmation bias.

It was merely a side note of mine, and I had no intention of actually arguing it. I challenged Bulb's premise for the post, and then, like I said, you blew up the point and

forced me to argue against you in a way that supposedly puts me in conjunction with Bulb.

I still don't think you're scummy, just that one instance.

Are you disputing that you are supporting Bulb's point almost word for word? How are you "supposedly" in conjunction with Bulb when this is how your exchange occurred:

-snip-

So if you thought it was weak, why are you basically parroting said weak point less than 30 posts later?

I called him out on it being a

weak point.

I did

NOT

say it was not scummy. I think it's scummy, but I think it's weak. He disagrees. The only similarity there is that we both think it's scummy.

[thezmon221]

It kind of baffles me that such an instance can happen where while I am asleep and at school, the whole wagon instance can completely shift from Despo to Oversoul. I'd be more concerned with the speed of the votes if I didn't really like the lynch, nor the people on the wagon. But I'm alright with most of the people who've voted for Oversoul.

Oversoul:

-snip-

If I didn't want a fuzzy lynch as badly as I do, I'd totally be game for this lynch. I think fuzzy's the way to go, though, and everyone should vote for him.

Said I had interest in the read, and the fuzzy/Haylen lynch will get me nowhere, so I will oblige.
VOTE: Oversoul

What do you think of the thez/Ceph echo chamber?

It was strange that they'd argue for the same points, but then slightly disagree when asked. Cephrir, however, did offer some original insights in the discussion, and explained somethings better than I could. Thez really didn't offer anything new to the table. The only reason I'm not more suspicious is because he was doing other things at the time. I probably need to remind myself who he replaced...

I replaced Mac, who did hardly anything. As for Cephrir, I really can't help that Despo seemingly argued just because he wanted to argue with someone. He argued with you, Bulb, and then with Cephrir, and then me. All on the same general topic, but each person had a slightly different stance and argument. I can't help that he's also close minded in such an affair.

[thezmon221]

If I read correctly, that's L-1. Anybody who quickhammers is tomorrow's lynch. No exception.

I think there's 10 votes right now, so that would be L-3, but waiting for an official VC is best regardless of our counts.

What if we hit scum?

It could be multiball or an SK who hammers.

What a ridiculous counter wagon to my Thor wagon.

We can get him tomorrow; I like him as a lynch option too.

[thezmon221]

How are long game days bad for the town? They provide a lot of information that we can use later.

Hammering without stating intent is scummy, because it doesn't give that player an opportunity to claim or post final reads. Not quickhammering is in the town's best interest.

Doing otherwise is in scum's best interest. Therefore, anyone who quickhammers without stating intent or waiting for a response should be seen as scummy and lynched the following day.

Yup; we need to get both before an actual hammer. And besides, longer game days tend to provide more scumslips as they start to get more reckless when the day goes on. Of course, there is such a thing as too long, though this is not it.

You made me check. He's a L-2.

That's what I got, so maybe we're right. Either way, no more votes until the next VC comes around. No need for an accidental hammer.

[thezmon221]

Not defensive, I just have issues with people coming into page 99 of a game and trying to make an argument based on the first 10, acting like they're hot shit as they do.

It's 4 days until deadline, what did you expect me to do? I hadn't been following the game, do you expect someone to read 100 pages in 4 days, analyse and build a case not to mention keep up with what was being said? It doesn't happen like that. I contemplated asking for a deadline extention but we're already at 100 pages, it would be anti-town to prolong the day any longer. By the end of night phase, I will be caught up.

Pretty sure I read almost 60 pages in 2 days, so 100 pages isn't out of the question. Not to mention I did not do it over long periods of time; only about 2 hour sessions each day.

So another question, Haylen: What are your reads, despite only reading about 15 pages (including current times)? Who would you want to lynch if we had the time?

[thezmon221]

What's thez done to draw your ire, Slaand?

Arguing with beyond obvtown Bacde over trivial things.
Acting helpful
Votes the easiest wagons he possibly could.
He doesn't try to push wagons except ones hes not on.

The fact that I liked one or two points of Bacde's case, but not the rest, and then told him his meta wagon of Nacho was stupid isn't exactly trivial. I challenged his read and told him to give some merit, and give me some points to convince me that Nacho was scum. He didn't give me what I wanted, and I thought Nacho was town. Where's the problem with that?

I'm not acting helpful at this point. There's no conversation that interests me at this point in time and I, quite frankly, grow bored of the day and just want to fast forward to Tuesday. I feel we've gotten sufficient information, and I've done what I could to scumhunt in the 30 or so pages I was actively engaged in.

The fact that I voted for someone and challenged them to be less lurky, without their response, had little bearing on the fact that I was "voting an easy wagon." I voted for the person I saw as the scummiest, and tried to get them talking, and then they went V/LA and replaced out, and then my reads changed with the new person. I also had already expressed interest in an OS wagon, and I'd be okay with a Thor wagon. If you really want to hold this over me, then why haven't I actually voted for the wagon that was around when I started? The Nacho wagon? I could have easily jumped on and fabricated a case, but decided to go my own way and didn't see Nacho nor Despo as scummy.

What wagons have I pushed that I haven't been on? None. I pushed for a fuzzy wagon, but he decided to go off and be completely disinterested in the game, and then I didn't want to vote for Haylen because I didn't think her play of the slot was as scummy as fuzzy's. Why does that make me wrong?

especially the "pretending to be helpful" bit, where its obviously an act to get me to keep on ranting to which he will NEVER change his opinion or even insert his own beyond "I'm not convinced"

Your case was shit. I was trying to get you to develop an actual case and make me see what you see. Probably about 80-90% of your case was meta, and I hate voting on meta or having strong reads based on meta. Is it my fault you had two good points and the rest pretty subjective? Not really. That's your fault for not making a convincing case. I thought Nacho was town for some stuff that you insisted was meta of scum.

btw Rena can't define "useful" because she's attacking my playstyle and not my play

I've seen it before folks nothing to see here move along

Yeah... your strong reads are pretty useless. You whore meta and that's pretty subjective. Especially for people who are good at mixing up their playstyles.

[thezmon221]

So this:

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

is not a meta read?

no its not

just because I can recognize when nacho is scum and you can't doesn't mean that its a meta read

Dude, it's a meta read. Quit fooling yourself.

In post 2596, Nero Cain wrote:But all of Slandaar, Bcade and Bulb have speculated that its multiball as well. Why is this a sin for me but not them?

+ why am I not on your town list?


Translation: "Look at these players that have acted similarly to me. Why aren't they scummy? They should totally be scummy. Give me town cred."

no. Do you know the term selective scumhunting?

Sounds to me like a deflection/attempt to gain town cred.

Sucess!!!

VOTE: EddieFenix

I really doubt you're going to get a Fenix wagon going. As much as I like it, I'd prefer an OS wagon, so would many others, and apparently there's interest in killing Nero now. So why don't you join one of those wagons since there's only like 3 days let?

You're being a douche to others at times and need to shut up.

There is a line.

+1

[thezmon221]

Well when you're being put under a spotlight and you go, "Hey! You should look at these guys too! They're scummy!" Kind of is scummy. You're deflecting pressure onto other people as opposed to actually defending against the points made against you.

[thezmon221]

Firstly, I'd like to say I'm very sorry for being absent during Sunday and Monday of Memorial Day Weekend. I got caught up in celebration with family (and fixing a street lamp with my dad) and this game took a backseat, as with my other games. However, I'm back now and plan to make it up to you guys.

No, its not worth it until nacho is lynched

Nacho, I know you're reading my posts, I know you're scum, and I just want to say that I'm upset that:

1) You are hiding this game instead of pretending you are town since thats gonna work for at least 2 more dayphases
2) That you blocked my vig-kill

The fuck it's not worth it. Why are you scared to show your reads? And why did you just roleclaim?

And let me get ONE MORE THING straightened out. You just claimed that Nacho had two different actions that he used in one night. You said he blocked you in this post. And then earlier you claimed that he made the kill on Red Ryu. How about you take a minute to think about it, and then say what you mean? Or are you implying that he does, in fact, have two night actions (which is pretty inconceivable) that you magically know about? Which would then lead to the conclusion that you would be a scum buddy of his?

I think you'll see that I'm not his buddy when Haylen flips blue though.

Why are you not scum if Haylen is? Why is it not conceivable that you bussed Haylen?

You were a scumread yesterday.

Your Red Ryu interaction analysis feels extremely surface to me

(for example, you have thezmon as null when his one interaction with Ryu, an opportunistic vote on him by Mac, pretty clearly indicates they're not scum together) so I went looking for mentions of Red Ryu in your ISO and you look like a good bet for being his buddy yourself. You started out wavering on him and having him as null, then moved him to "officially scummy" when he started emerging as a counterwagon to Nacho's without contributing your vote (you were sitting alone on B&tB pretty much for the duration). You then gradually shifted him back down your list of suspects (he was a "question mark" among players on Nacho's wagon) for no discernible reason other than he wasn't posting much. In hindsight, you singling him out for "mindless Nacho pushing" bugs even more, because his attack against Nacho was more confusing than anything else in my opinion and only really obvious as a scum play to his scumbuddies.

Exactly what I thought. It sounds like an easy attempt by Cephrir to get some cheap towncred for something that is actually not very beneficial and shows very little ACTUAL depth of analysis.

Bacde just shot up in scumminess with me. His recent push on Nacho is so terrible. Not really sure what the point of him claiming vig is to me. It sounds like a panic and perhaps a cover-up for a tracker seeing him kill someone. It also sounds like another terrible way to frame Nacho in a bad light. Like, seriously. Even if he really is a vigilante, why is he mad at Nacho for the roleblock?

[thezmon221]

2) That you blocked my vig-kill

Yes, nacho is good. That's why he killed Red Ryu and not me

please tell me you aren't this dumb

you realize that mafia factions can use powers and have other members make kills right?

some mods even allow the same mafia member to make a kill and perform an action in a single night

Maybe I wasn't clear. You said that Nacho himself both blocked you and killed RR. You didn't say his team did it. You said HE did it. And thanks for ignoring half of my post, but you should actually respond to my questions instead of ignoring them. HOWEVER, if you read anything else instead of misrepping my entire post, you'd realize that wasn't even the major point. So go and actually read it instead of cherrypicking things that you can defend against.

@thez: Do you really think bluescum would bus today? they lost one already and it's multiball.

True, I forgot about that. However Haylen's death wouldn't clear you as town, mind you.

[thezmon221]

@thez: Do you really think bluescum would bus today? they lost one already and it's multiball.

True, I forgot about that. However Haylen's

death and flip as bluescum

wouldn't clear you as town, mind you.

Oops, that's what it should say.

[thezmon221]

you are accusing me of cherrypicking your posts, but I seriously quoted and addressed the meat of your post, the only thing I didn't address was this:

And I doubt you would have answered the questions had I not brought it up again. You took one part which was the "meat" of the post, and addressed that. You missed half of the post which actually had more scumhunting relevant questions.

The fuck it's not worth it. Why are you scared to show your reads? And why did you just roleclaim?

1)I'm not scared to show my reads and in fact there are many posts of mine in my ISO which show them, but right now I'm concentrating on Nacho. Its pretty clear
2)Why not

1) So you're saying your reads haven't changed from D1 to D2 based on night kills?
2)The fuck you mean why not? The scum can take you out at night time or manipulate you in a way during the day to work to their advantage. You just put a big target on your back when you didn't need to.

Re: Nacho + roles:

No, it does not matter that you differentiate who uses the action in a mafia team as a scum action is still a scum action despite who uses it. What bugged me about it is that you can't keep your story straight, and then you get these far fetched ideas to use as flak against him. At first you accused him of killing RR. Okay, that's not too bad. HOWEVER, you then accused him of RBing your vig power. Seriously, you used that as something against him. That's a terrible point to make about Nacho, especially since it is 100% speculation, just like your whole read on him.

[thezmon221]

Just to understand. There are three neighborhoods?

CrashTextDummie - Slandaar
ThAdmiral - ???
Desperado - ???

Reminds me:
What do people (not just KK, but KK can answer too) are the chances that at least one, if not two, of the neighborhoods are town-scum neighborhoods? I personally would say the chances are pretty good.

And Bacde is claiming vig with no kill on the board? I smell bullshit on that one.

He claimed to be RBed by Nacho's party.

[thezmon221]

@Thez - I've seen it swing both ways, so I see no reason not to expect scum to be involved in the neighbor goulash at some level. Why, what are you suggesting we do with that info? I could probably randomly name any set of 6 players and probably end up with at least one scum amongst them - so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I mean, we're getting into a breaking of the setup here, but it could be conceivable that we could end up using it for PoE later on in the game, to some sort of extent. If a pair of neighbors dies, and we're left with two sets, then maybe we can discern between the two? That would conceivably be a 50% chance of hitting scum right there. I wouldn't use it too much, but I would keep the information in the back of my mind when looking for associations of people.

[thezmon221]

ugh this is dumb everyones reads are different how is this game supposed to work

Maybe if you didn’t, you know, make a vote off of 100% speculation we’d be in a bit better shape.

@Bacde: Answer Post 2959. I've been patiently waiting.

[thezmon221]

1) So you're saying your reads haven't changed from D1 to D2 based on night kills?
2)The fuck you mean why not? The scum can take you out at night time or manipulate you in a way during the day to work to their advantage. You just put a big target on your back when you didn't need to.

1) Not especially

2) How I play is my own perogative; scum can make what they want of my claim. Town definitely will after I die

1) You know who doesn't have reads that change after flips (especially two flips)? Scum. Scum doesn't need to change their reads. Your case on Nacho is exactly the same as it was D1: Crap.

2) I still can't believe you decided to do such, but we'll leave it as it is.

3) Stop pretending like these questions matter at all, its pretty obvious they don't

Obviously your scumhunting is very different from mine, then.

[thezmon221]

Really? You think its crap? Because you haven't refuted any of it. And actually, yesterday you were saying that it was pretty good, it just wasn't

quite enough

to get you to vote.

You had two good points. I didn't vote because you meta whore and I didn't think he was scum.

You know who ELSE doesn't have reads that change after flips? Town who is correct. And if you had even been reading me yesterday, my read on nacho DID change yesterday, until I finally become convinced of him being scum again

...So if a person flips town that you thought was scum initially, your reads would still be the same? Even still, Syry and Red's flips still impacted my reads some, even if I had them painted as town and null-scum respectively. What you're implying here would be that you KNEW they were that alignment, though you shouldn't. And even THEN, the fact that Syry flipped a sort of PR should change things as well.

try harder to paint me as scummy plz

You're doing a pretty good job yourself.

Ok, why is thezmon trying to heavily imply that I am scum, yet never votes me, doesn't push on me, and later in the post he talks to me as though I'm town?

What kind of posts are you reading? I never implied you're scum. I think you're delusional and useless town.

PEDIT: For fuck's sake, can you stop spamming 30000 posts and put more than one coherent thought into a post instead of scattering pieces of it?

[thezmon221]

You had two good points. I didn't vote because you meta whore and I didn't think he was scum.

I actually don't play by meta

I use a variety of methods to find my scum

but I love how you're gonna keep pushing my case as "meta" because thats the easiest way for you to discredit it

But it is meta. Show me it isn't.

"Nacho isn't acting like town-Nacho! He's scum! Nacho is playing useless!"

That's meta, and that's what you're doing.

What kind of posts are you reading? I never implied you're scum. I think you're delusional and useless town.

YES!

Town, I saved you. Thank me later. LOL! this is great

He just literally lied because he can't keep track of his opinions that are displayed in his posts. Lets look at this gem right here:

1) You know who doesn't have reads that change after flips (especially two flips)? Scum. Scum doesn't need to change their reads. Your case on Nacho is exactly the same as it was D1: Crap.

This is Thezmon's argument:

1) Bacde does A
2) Scum do A

3 (assumption) Town is much less likely to do A

4) (inference/implication) Bacde is scum

Yet he denies it.

Sheep Bacde. Scumhunting made easy.

No, not really. I think you're town, though dumb and useless. I always have, and quite possibly will for a while. The fact that I presented an action to you and clearly stated that scum did it was to garner interest from you, as well as to see where your motivations lie since you're stubborn. You see, it's been debated, even here in this thread, that dumb/useless town can be synonymous with scum. It's a gray area, so I'm trying to discern between the two and make sure I am on the correct side of the spectrum.

[thezmon221]

-snip-

lol this is a whole lot of words that can basically be summed up to say "oh shit I messed up"

I've gone through the whole "you suck you're useless look elsewhere for scum" song and dance before, it was when I was scum and absta101 was SURE that I was scum. And I said it to absta101

No, its never been debated that "useless town" is synonymous with scum. Also, I'm not useless. I have a scum in my grip and I'm about to squeeze

Firstly, my post has nothing to do with what you said in the first statement. Try again.

Secondly... umm... yeah. useless town and scum can be rather synonymous to one another.

ok, what about my point of nacho tunneling on OS was shitty (it was objectively shitty, OS was town)

what about my point of nacho having shitty reads?

what about my point of nacho not believing in the pushes that he's been making?

what about my point of how you are clearly nacho's scumbuddy?

these are all in ADDITION to the meta I've got on nacho

and how about how you ADMITTED that I had two good points (see the spoiler appendix)? Why would you admit that I have two good points, and then reduce my case to meta and say that its shitty and that I have no points?

Now I have a question for you: What were the two good points that I made? Since they were obviously not meta if you thought they were good: you clearly think meta is bad.

1. Nacho didn't even really tunnel him after the fiasco at the beginning of the day. And sure you can make it seem worse now after you've seen the flip. Otherwise it's a poor point.

2. Just because you don't agree quite as much with his reads doesn't necessarily make them bad. However, I do know that I didn't like a lot of his reads.

3. But he did believe in the reads that he did push. Did you read his posts or submit to confirmation bias?

4. Go ahead and make that point. That's only speculation. The fact that I don't think he's scum, however, can't even prove that we are "obviously scumbuddies" without a flip.

When did I ever object that I didn't like those two points? I don't think you see the picture here. I said you had two good points, yes, but you have to look at the big picture. When your case is riddled with as much meta as yours was, it lacks that credibility in my eyes. I didn't vote for him because I read your meta read, and then I read his posts, and confirmed he was town. Notice when I voted OS, I supplied what another had as a summation of a case against him which had at least 5 pretty solid points.

[thezmon221]

Are you really succumbing to the fact that he spams the same thing over and over again?

[thezmon221]

No, AA9, he's referring to his "rock-solid" case on me.

[thezmon221]

Well, I'm a L-1, it appears.

Claim:

Universal Backup

Reads:

Spoiler:

TOWN:
Slandaar
CTD
Nacho
AA9
Kublai Khan
Nero Cain
EddieFenix
Bacde
Thor665
Bulbazak

NULL:
PA
PV
Seanald
ffullisade

SCUM:
Haylen
ThAdmiral
Om the Destroyer
Desperado
Cephrir
Amethyst Kitty

[thezmon221]

No, why would I?

[thezmon221]

At start, this role is effectively an ordinary Townie. However, whenever the first power role dies (i.e. Doctor, Cop, Vigilante, etc.), the Universal back-up inherits that power role and can use it themselves.

If thezmon was town he would be a Friendly Neighbor. Die scum die.

mastin never told me I was a Friendly Neighbor after Syry's death.

Besides, wouldn't it have made more sense for me to be a 2-shot BP instead?

[thezmon221]

Pretty sure that Universal Backups can't become Mason Recruiters either, and Friendly Neighbor is basically a weaker version of it. Only difference is the talk out of chat and guarantee that the target is pro-town.

[thezmon221]

thazmon221, on the other hand, why didn't you use your vote to pressure Bacde in that situation, since it seems like he was doing something you found scummy?

Because this method worked. No need to put my vote in a spot for pressure when pressure is already applied.

The fact you aren't raises eyebrows. What will it take for you to gain a power?

I received no explanation on which roles specifically. The only thing he really did mention was what the wiki said, and Cephrir quoted. All I know is that I have yet to get a new role to my knowledge.

[thezmon221]

For God's sake.

VOTE: Thezmon221

[thezmon221]

Good game, guys. Great job PA for squeaking out that win!