NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

Bulbazak · Post Post #1525 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 9:51 am

In post 1524, Bacde wrote:bulbazak one of these days we are going to agree about a single read in our games

like seriously, one freaking read

I think we do, but the line is not normally drawn on those reads...

mastin2 · Post Post #1526 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 9:58 am

Thirtieth Votecount

:

(

AKA, the "Whoah, new page" votecount

)

Nachomamma8 - 5 (Red Ryu, Bacde, Nero Cain, Slandaar, Desperado)

Red Ryu - 3 (Oversoul, Bulbazak, Syryana)

Cephrir - 3 (Baby Spice, Amethyst Kitty, BeautyAndTheBeast)
fuzzybutternut - 2 (thezmon221, Cephrir)
BeautyAndTheBeast - 2 (Kublai Khan, Thor665)
Bulbazak - 1 (fuzzybutternut)
DLG - 1 (CrashTextDummie)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)
Desperado - 1 (Nachomamma8)
Bacde - 1 (Om the Destroyer)

Not Voting - 4 (Seanald, Hanzo_5, ArcAngel9, EddieFenix)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

Spoiler: changes from last official votecount

Spoiler: Player Vote History

Spoiler: Voting History

Syryana · Post Post #1527 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 10:03 am

Alright, V/LA over. Wall inc.

BeautyAndTheBeast · Post Post #1528 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 11:53 am

In post 1481, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 1480, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 1479, Kublai Khan wrote:No, town strategy isn't to survive, it's to find and lynch scum before they out-number town.
Being unlynchable as town is just as effective as finding scum in the early game. And, for the most part, generally more accurate - I can be certain of my own alignment. I may read others wrong. I have the stronger position here; I suggest you check yourself before you wreck yourself.
No. Scum kill unlynchable townies. There's no advantage to your playstyle if your town.

So a townie shouldn't be super-pro-town or obv-town as town because they'd be unlynchable and therefore it isn't advantageous?

Yeah, fuck off with your blowhard argument.

In post 1481, Kublai Khan wrote:No, I don't.

I'm sure you can back this up with quotes that won't be subsequently refuted by my own proof, right?

In post 1481, Kublai Khan wrote:
In post 1480, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:And while you're at it; why don't you explain what is so questionable about my play?
I already have been.

Such as?

In post 1496, Hanzo_5 wrote:
@B&TB

Your question is assumes to much.I didnt say all of your play was fluffy. just that the specific thing I quoted was. Further you didnt ask for my reason, you asked if I have summed all your post up by that one comment.

I have no case against you. Stop making things up. Ive been giving you the benefit of the doubt because you seem confused. But no more...

Also its a game. try to be a little more mature...

I'm guessing this is to the Mollie half. Care to restate your issue with us? Succinctly, please.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #1529 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:13 pm

Bacde:

I didn't try to misrepresent your play.

In post 1375, Bacde wrote:
In post 1224, Bacde wrote:B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself
I'm not arguing that nacho is a good lynch if he's town

in fact, I believe the opposite

but nacho isn't a worthless player when he's town, and for some reason this game he's playing worthlessly

do you get the picture? There's a reason that I scumread nacho right now

The quoted post reads to me "if Nacho is town he's worthless this game, ergo there's no reason not to lynch him regardless of alignment". I did not see this as another argument for why you read him as scum, as you claim was your intention. You also claim that your "vig Nacho, let's discuss other lynches" post was a reaction test, and that your intentions to lynch Nacho didn't diminish at all. Well there you go, you got a reaction. If you're purposely misleading, don't be surprised when people are mislead.

I checked out your ISO, and while you've certainly been single-minded, your play isn't actually as mindless as it appeared to me as I read through the game initially. After a certain point, all I saw was a constant chorus of "lynch Nacho, lynch Nacho" but on closer inspection I can see that your case against him has actually evolved and grown, and I can even see merit to some of your arguments. A lot of it looks like confirmation bias to me even at a second glance, but you've pointed out a couple of things that look legitimately scummy to me.

I think I may actually be coming around on Nacho. His insistence on voting Desperado is terrible. Desperado has rightfully pointed out that parts of his case are factually incorrect and what's left is awfully weak. It's hard for me to swallow that

this

is Nacho's strongest read to the point where he's unwilling to compromise on a secondary suspect. I guess that means I should actually reread his posts more closely now.

In post 1367, pirate mollie wrote:as to your "what town does this?", why are you going after bc for it when nero has been saying in every other post (and is anyone else as sick as I am of his hard on for me? jesus christ) that he would sit on the sofa and eat bon bons if we could be lynched. why are you leaving him alone?

Nero Cain's conduct towards you I assumed is stemming from personal animosity, and struck me as part of a general trollish pattern. I certainly don't find it pro-town or helpful (or pleasant), but I don't think antagonism is a scum-tell per se. He's on my massclaim analysis shit list, meaning I have no intention of leaving him alone in the long term. My focus is elsewhere at the moment because he hasn't done anything that screams scum to me in the meantime. He's high on the list of people I want to reread though.

CrashTextDummie · Post Post #1530 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:29 pm

In post 1370, EddieFenix wrote:If you read my Iso, I did have a list posted. Not a full explanation for EVERYTHING, but it's still there.

The only list I saw in your ISO is a week old and was based on pre-game. Are "players of interest to you" actually people you suspect? i.E. is this a list of scumreads?

EddieFenix wrote:B.) Player(s) that have my attention as far as MY interests go when it comes to my reading (Bulba, OS, Fuzzy, B&TB, Bacde, Nacho, Cephrir, etc.)

EddieFenix wrote:As far as my stint on the Nacho wagon, the thought that ran through my mind when Nacho was avoiding the thread was that yes, he WAS mafia because it's a tactic I've seen before. I wanted to add to the pressure of that Nacho wagon to get him in here to start talking so he can plead his case and everyone (minus Bacde...) can start microscopically picking apart his posts to make heads or tails of him. It's passive of me, yes. But, I digress.

Bit of a mixed signal here. If you thought he was legitimately scummy for lurking, I don't get why you'd remove your vote so quickly. You say you wanted to add pressure so everyone could analyze his posts, but I don't see

you

microscopically picking them apart.

Bacde · Post Post #1531 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:50 pm

In post 1529, CrashTextDummie wrote:reaction test

if you aren't trying to misrepresent my play, why do you keep doing it?

I never engaged people in conversation as a "reaction test", I was just asking about other possible lynches to feel people out

I'ma read the rest of your post now but I can already tell its all wrong :/

Bacde · Post Post #1532 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:52 pm

oh snaps color me surprised I actually like a lot about this post

Red Ryu · Post Post #1533 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 pm

So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Red Ryu · Post Post #1534 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 pm

Also Gog damn it, designing an entire board game program is a bitch and a half with bugs in the code.

fuzzybutternut · Post Post #1535 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 12:55 pm

In post 1533, Red Ryu wrote:So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.

ISO · Post Post #1536 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 1:14 pm

Please, continue to regale us with your refreshing outlook on the game and protown, intensely scumhunting mindset. Jegus.

Bulbazak · Post Post #1537 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 1:39 pm

In post 1535, fuzzybutternut wrote:
In post 1533, Red Ryu wrote:So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.

Hello, Fuzzy. Where have you been? Why haven't you been responding to our posts? Are you scum?

thezmon221 · Post Post #1538 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 2:23 pm

In post 1537, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1535, fuzzybutternut wrote:
In post 1533, Red Ryu wrote:So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.
Hello, Fuzzy. Where have you been? Why haven't you been responding to our posts? Are you scum?

Probably just a prod dodge in disguise. Curious as to why he hasn't responded to the efforts to lynch him, nor anything that actually matters other than his speculation on wagons. Obvious speculation at that.

fuzzybutternut · Post Post #1539 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 3:07 pm

In post 1537, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1535, fuzzybutternut wrote:
In post 1533, Red Ryu wrote:So mod said posting prod dodge doesn't count, welp.

Someone tell me about the smaller wagons gaining speed and why they are forming.

Because scum is on them.
Hello, Fuzzy. Where have you been? Why haven't you been responding to our posts? Are you scum?

Hey Bulb! I've been..eh, everywhere.
Because I haven't read much, tbh.
Totes scum, bro. Totes scum.

Syryana · Post Post #1540 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 3:27 pm

Hokay. Brief overview of what I missed revealed people are still stuck on Nacho (and B&B still has diarrhea of the mouth).

Time to deal with this Nacho thing.

Spoiler: Nacho stuff

Alright, a general summary of the case against Nacho:

In post 1227, Slandaar wrote:
In post 1205, Thor665 wrote: Why does that make him scummy?
Let me help you.

Day 2 3 VT dead in 13man game;

Sland: lets massclaim.

Nacho is town in these quotes...
In post 477, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 470, Slandaar wrote:3/4 PR out of 7 town alive helps us narrow down things considerably

Scum can fakeclaim but it will be obvious when they do.
really
because massclaims are kind of shitty when we have an SK
since they kind of cut through the PRs pretty easily
and if we have a massclaim then he will have no reason to claim town

In post 482, Nachomamma8 wrote: i don't necessarily think we have an SK
but the possibility exists, and it makes massclaim shitty
I claim Doc
In post 565, Nachomamma8 wrote:if we decided to massclaim, then yes that would be a good idea.
i still think it's a horrible idea to massclaim. maybe a little bit less than i did before, but it's still a horrible idea.
you also wouldn't be conftown with an un-CC'ed doctor claim
He should probably die. (In case anyone doesn't understand why; 1. there is possible SK in this game no reason to assume there isn't and 2. the situation in said game was a much greater spot to massclaim than here and 3. I had a solution to ensure SK issue wasn't an issue; the vig claims first or no massclaim)

Nacho is scum trying to push an idea he thinks will help his team.

The Oversoul case is pretty bad also; yes everyone could see its a fakeclaim but it doesn't mean it comes from scum.

In post 1209, Bacde wrote:My case is not a "meta" case

Its a "nacho is a better player than this" case

in addition to a

"I have caught scum doing the same thing nacho is doing" case

in addition to a

"nacho is making scummy comments and ignoring me in a scummy way hidden within all his most recent posts" case

In post 1224, Bacde wrote:B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself

In post 1375, Bacde wrote:
In post 1366, CrashTextDummie wrote:Bacde stopped pushing a sound meta case the moment he started arguing that Nacho would be a good lynch even if town
ok CTD is scum

this is the ONLY post that I made that could even be CONSTRUED as being similar to what CTD is saying that I'm doing:

In post 1224, Bacde wrote:B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself
I'm not arguing that nacho is a good lynch if he's town

in fact, I believe the opposite

but nacho isn't a worthless player when he's town, and for some reason this game he's playing worthlessly

do you get the picture? There's a reason that I scumread nacho right now

In post 1422, Bacde wrote:
In post 1420, thezmon221 wrote:Yes, I've played with Nacho before.

I also considered Ceph to be null, so that part isn't exactly an issue. His read overall has been a tossup for me. I felt he had good motivation in his posts, but Jiffy convinced me of a light for other posts of him, which is why he's null and not one way or the other. He showed a distaste for fuzzy when fuzzy made the unnecessary, and rather opportunistic pseudo-contribution, post, which I'm all for. Whether he would have voted if I didn't or not, I won't know, but I don't feel the sheep is explicitly a scummy sheep regardless.

Besides, we still have almost a week, so we have time. The fact of the matter is, I don't think Nacho is a good enough lynch at this point in time. His beginning was crap, but I like his recent posts, even if I don't agree with them.

<<< Actually, it's over a week--almost two weeks, in fact. Deadline for D1 was set at three weeks, not two, meaning you've still got a week and a half (12 days as of this edit) left. Deadline isn't next Monday, but the Monday after that. >>>
Nacho knows that his more recent posts are better,
that's why he made them

but nothing in his recent posts screamed town
AND YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY NACHO MAKES POSTS THAT SCREAM TOWN

the entire purpose of his "reads" posts was just to get more townreads from people not confident enough to lynch him

did you notice how nacho asked me if I saw a "keyword" or something in his posts? He was trying to act like he was confident that I wasn't reading his posts (even though I've been reading every letter). The entire way nacho is ignoring the wagon on him and ESPECIALLY ignoring me
SCREAMS
scum-nacho, and the way CTD is misrepresenting every aspect of my posts screams scum-partner

There's a reason nacho's play improved (only slightly) RIGHT AFTER I started this bandwagon on him for him having shitty posts. ITS. BECAUSE. NACHO. IS. SCUM.

PS--just wanted to add this in because I was thinking about how shitty CTD is at representing me. If I was ever "backing off" nacho, then why was I so insistent that he be vigged? And why did I never unvote him? Oh, I guess I was never backing off him in the first place

So, in short:

Nacho's pushing massclaim, he hated it before as town, therefore he's scum
The Oversoul case is shit
Nacho isn't obviously town
Nacho is usually more useful than this

Let's deal with massclaim first.

Spoiler: Nacho's massclaim thoughts

In post 232, Nachomamma8 wrote:I agree with a D1 massclaim here.

In post 234, Nachomamma8 wrote:And we're starting with the informed townie.

In post 241, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 237, Bulbazak wrote:Yeah, not mass-claiming. Sorry. I've had some bad experiences with mass claims in games, and every time it led to a scum victory, because the game became less about scum hunting and scum tells and more about what was probable. It also puts our PRs in harms way. I'd rather catch scum the old fashioned way while the PRs do their job in secret, until they feel it is in the best interest of the town to out themselves. So sorry, not claiming. Deal with it.
Some bad experiences with massclaims in games? Link them. Just because you had massclaims do bad things in other places doesn't mean they will here. Meanwhile, the preference for the "old-fashioned" way seems like nothing more than preference. We're still catching them the old-fashioned way, we just have a little more information to work with.

In post 249, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 243, Bulbazak wrote:Amurika Mafia: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25487
In AMURIKA, massclaiming did only good things for you guys. If you allowed Gorgon and Peregrine to have a little more time before claiming, Peregrine would've had a Public Investigator claim which would've pretty much took away all chance of him being lynched ever. In True Love, that's a different mechanic. We're not claiming lovers, we're claiming roles.

In post 264, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 253, Bulbazak wrote:@Nacho: But the massclaim in Amurika also allowed Peregrine to escape being lynched for 2 days, because he wrote off any reason given as having to do with his name claim. He made it to Lylo because the claim gave him cover. The role and name claims became a distraction more than a help, and scum, especially Peregrine, were able to get farther than they should.
But that ended up happening because you guys started playing the "oh, I don't think he's scum because his name fits" game. We have no names to worry about here.

In post 260, Slandaar wrote:Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?
They aren't, necessarily. I became a little more favorable to massclaims with possible SKs after how that game turned out, though, but I've always been a fan of them as I said several times. I just didn't want to massclaim when I already had several strong scum suspects that were probably going to get lynched.

In post 263, Oversoul wrote:This activity from HD makes me think he is town.
That's stupid.

In post 286, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 281, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 277, Nachomamma8 wrote:[
In post 274, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 271, Nachomamma8 wrote: Bulba, but are you willing to this game?
No.
Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?
Yes, I will not claim as part of a massclaim. I seriously hate it that much. I understand that I may die because of it (see Newbie 1337), but at least that leaves something secret and unknown to scum (Tracey was right in this regard, and she should not have claimed during Amurika Mafia.).
But leaving things secret in a massclaim is not that important, especially so early on. Scum won't care about your role when they have plenty of other power roles to go through; meanwhile, the scum we can catch will be hiding behind your refusal. It doesn't help anyone if you refuse to massclaim but don't stop the massclaim; in fact, that's pretty much the most anti-town way you can respond to the plan.

In post 314, Nachomamma8 wrote:I don't think it's a bad idea to start a massclaim early, get players with good synergy to get working with each other, get a little info from PRs, catch one or two free scum, dominate.

In post 326, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 317, Amethyst Kitty wrote:I don't like the idea of mass claiming. I rather not at least not on Day1.
Why not?

HD, Mollie is town, so you'll have to put up with Majiffy.

So, to sum that up, Nacho thinks massclaim is a good idea and wants to know what other people think about it. Scum motivation? Where's the "pushing massclaim" that people (read Bacde, Slandaar) have claimed Nacho's been doing? I don't see his massclaim stance as scummy and "he didn't like massclaim as town before" is frankly shit.

Point 2: The Oversoul case. Well then, let's look at the Oversoul case!

Spoiler: The Oversoul Case

In post 206, Nachomamma8 wrote:Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

In post 213, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 208, Oversoul wrote:Nacho, don't be so blind
All your claim amounts to is a useless role. I can easily see that there are two killing roles in the game after the first night, after there are two kills. Meanwhile, your claim is pretty great for an SK because nobody in their right mind will shoot you. Why didn't you wait until night to claim?

In post 220, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 214, Oversoul wrote:I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.
That's not why you claimed, now is it?

In post 215, Oversoul wrote:And why wouldn't anyone shoot me?

Why would anyone want to protect me? I'm not exactly useful anymore.
No would want to shoot you because you are useless. You don't need protection because you won't be shot.

In post 216, Oversoul wrote:Also I think the operative word is *at least*

It doesn't say for a fact that there are only 2 killing roles in the game
I know. That doesn't change I will probably know how many killing roles are in the game by Day 2.

In post 238, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 236, Desperado wrote:I am dumb, present, and currently busy, which means I will not be able to re-read this thread until late tonight at the earliest.

Can anyone summarize the proceedings thus far?
Oversoul claimed an informed townie with useless information, got called out on it, said he had more information.
Otherwise, we're talking about a massclaim.

In post 350, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 349, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 206, Nachomamma8 wrote:Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul
Bad claim? Yes.

Was it scummy in itself? No.
It was scummy in itself because that role would never exist. Now he's scummy for other reasons, but the claim still sucks.

In post 473, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 470, Red Ryu wrote:Your assuming again and showboat foresight that you even considered that he was town.

If I lynch him, it will be on his play today not his role.
This game constantly requires us to take leaps of faith and assume things. When you play, you assume there is a way to distinguish whether someone gets a role PM that says "you win with town" from "you win with scum". You assume that if you find scum, you will be able to convince people to get them lynched. You assume scum will do this, you assume that people will do that, you assume that this game is possible for your side to win. You back up these assumptions with evidence. I making an assumption about the setup that SHOULD be obvious to most of you, Oversoul is claiming something that is completely useless to us. What use is a role whose information will be revealed by Day 2 (or even by Day 3 if someone gets lucky)?

In post 1131, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 972, Red Ryu wrote:Mafia would not figure that info out on D1 off their size when they lack to knowledge of what town has.

We could try and piece it by D3, but we still could lack info on how kills work, what if they are alternating with opposite scum teams, one gets it on odd night, the other on even nights? What if some of these were town one shots? We don't know this til claims and flip roll around. Off how many people die is not a surefire tell.
Mafia would figure out if there were two teams D1 based on size unless the teams are very uneven, which is unlikely because this is a normal game and not a theme game where powers are a lot better than numbers. We could probably piece it together on D2; town one shots don't really matter much since vigs usually use their shots early. If the only information an informed townie has is "there are at least two killing roles" and the other killing role is a town one-shot, then that information doesn't really help us much except to confirm the one-shot vig if the kill doesn't go through, which is unlikely unless he's an idiot. We don't KNOW for sure by Day 2, but 9 times out of 10 we can take a damn good guess, and we don't really need an informed townie to tell us that we're correct. That was my logic for pushing Oversoul; I knew he was lying, and, because I saw that it had more scum motivation than town motivation, I pushed him for it.

I don't even know why you think that I'm mafia for seeing through a fakeclaim and pushing someone for it; acceptable town responses are to monitor, or to put him under pressure to see how, if at all, he decides to retract his fakeclaim. In this case, Oversoul said "oh yeah it was a gambit that I did because people attack me when I do weird things" or some shit like that, so yes, I am a little hesitant to back down when until recently everything he has posted has had to do with reactions from his gambit that he hasn't really talked about or who's ignoring massclaim or gambit claim, which, if we're talking about "mechanical and fake", then Oversoul's analysis of things definitely seems like both of those.

There's this:
In post 820, Oversoul wrote:My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and unfortunately only a handful of players did.
Where "reactions" isn't really that good of a reason. Why informed townie? When
did
you decide to claim informed townie?

Okay, summing up the Oversoul case: Oversoul claimed informed townie. The information given was generic ("there are at least 2 NKs") and he promised more information later. He later admitted he was lying and the whole thing was a reaction test. So Nacho is scummy for tunneling this case? O RLY? Why haven't people flipped seven shits that Oversoul admitted he fakeclaimed? Why would Oversoul fakeclaim in the first place? A reaction test? Why are people buying that?

In short, Nacho tunneling Oversoul is not scummy.

Next, Nacho isn't obviously town (ergo, he's scum) and I'll go ahead and combine point four with this:

Spoiler: Wait Bacde, what?

In post 1375, Bacde wrote:
In post 1366, CrashTextDummie wrote:Bacde stopped pushing a sound meta case the moment he started arguing that Nacho would be a good lynch even if town
ok CTD is scum

this is the ONLY post that I made that could even be CONSTRUED as being similar to what CTD is saying that I'm doing:

In post 1224, Bacde wrote:B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself
I'm not arguing that nacho is a good lynch if he's town

in fact, I believe the opposite

but nacho isn't a worthless player when he's town, and for some reason this game he's playing worthlessly

do you get the picture? There's a reason that I scumread nacho right now

In post 1422, Bacde wrote:Nacho knows that his more recent posts are better,
that's why he made them

but nothing in his recent posts screamed town
AND YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY NACHO MAKES POSTS THAT SCREAM TOWN

the entire purpose of his "reads" posts was just to get more townreads from people not confident enough to lynch him

did you notice how nacho asked me if I saw a "keyword" or something in his posts? He was trying to act like he was confident that I wasn't reading his posts (even though I've been reading every letter). The entire way nacho is ignoring the wagon on him and ESPECIALLY ignoring me
SCREAMS
scum-nacho, and the way CTD is misrepresenting every aspect of my posts screams scum-partner

There's a reason nacho's play improved (only slightly) RIGHT AFTER I started this bandwagon on him for him having shitty posts. ITS. BECAUSE. NACHO. IS. SCUM.

PS--just wanted to add this in because I was thinking about how shitty CTD is at representing me. If I was ever "backing off" nacho, then why was I so insistent that he be vigged? And why did I never unvote him? Oh, I guess I was never backing off him in the first place

In post 1514, Bacde wrote:
In post 1503, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1494, Bulbazak wrote:If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?
Pride.
Does anyone else see how nacho makes a post like this, and then a bunch of townsfolk all say "WTF IT WAS PRIDE?! SCREW THAT! WE CAN'T LYNCH NACHO"

Trust me, nacho knows what he's doing, and nacho knows how to play scum

Guys, it wasn't pride

Pride has absolutely nothing to do with it

NACHO. IS. SCUM.

thats all there is to it

If ANYTHING, it has more to do with experimentation than pride, I'm experimenting with a new style

I like to call it "anti-scum to the extreme"

In post 1516, Bacde wrote:Nacho isn't playing to "out his reads" or "find scum" this game, he's
manipulating people
(and he can do it with one word even as shown w/ the pride post)

that is not the way town-nacho plays

Look at these two posts intended to manipulate me using fear out of my push on nacho:

In post 1478, Nachomamma8 wrote:Mollie, Bacde, I'm not screaming at you guys for being idiots this game because you do have a point because I'm not exactly happy with my reads yet. It's not that I'm lacking motivation for this game and it isn't that I'm being useless (that's bullshit, Bacde), but I definitely am not being as aggressive and on point this game because I just don't have things worked out yet. I have a pretty good scumread in Desperado, a pretty decent town core, but I don't feel comfortable with the game to the point that I usually do. Although, Bacde:

In post 1459, Bacde wrote:if nacho flips town you are suspect #1
If I flip town, you're living in my scumlist for a while. You owe me that much.

In post 1483, Nachomamma8 wrote:Will you?
Also, why has he forgotten about this:
In post 1487, Nachomamma8 wrote:That's fucking stupid. I want you to follow my reads.
If he wants me to follow his reads, why isn't he pushing them harder? If he wants me to follow his reads, why does he keep saying to me "No you have a point I haven't been playing as well as I'd like this game"

Guys, excuses like that are scummy on their own. But when he simultaneously says that he's unhappy with his reads, but ALSO wants me to follow his reads?

Scum.

So... Nacho is scum because: He's ignoring the wagon on him. He's ignoring his main attacker, Bacde. He's not actively scumhunting. Well, considering the quality case built up against him and the fact that he'd pretty much caught Oversoul since that fakeclaim at Daystart, that's hardly surprising. He's not pushing his reads? I don't know, the fact that he's been voting Oversoul since Daystart might be a clue. The rest of his reads Nacho himself admitted he's not happy with. Why would he push them?

W.r.t. not scumhunting:

Spoiler: I guess this is Nacho not scumhunting

In post 206, Nachomamma8 wrote:Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

In post 213, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 208, Oversoul wrote:Nacho, don't be so blind
All your claim amounts to is a useless role. I can easily see that there are two killing roles in the game after the first night, after there are two kills. Meanwhile, your claim is pretty great for an SK because nobody in their right mind will shoot you. Why didn't you wait until night to claim?

In post 220, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 214, Oversoul wrote:I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.
That's not why you claimed, now is it?

In post 215, Oversoul wrote:And why wouldn't anyone shoot me?

Why would anyone want to protect me? I'm not exactly useful anymore.
No would want to shoot you because you are useless. You don't need protection because you won't be shot.

In post 216, Oversoul wrote:Also I think the operative word is *at least*

It doesn't say for a fact that there are only 2 killing roles in the game
I know. That doesn't change I will probably know how many killing roles are in the game by Day 2.

In post 473, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 470, Red Ryu wrote:Your assuming again and showboat foresight that you even considered that he was town.

If I lynch him, it will be on his play today not his role.
This game constantly requires us to take leaps of faith and assume things. When you play, you assume there is a way to distinguish whether someone gets a role PM that says "you win with town" from "you win with scum". You assume that if you find scum, you will be able to convince people to get them lynched. You assume scum will do this, you assume that people will do that, you assume that this game is possible for your side to win. You back up these assumptions with evidence. I making an assumption about the setup that SHOULD be obvious to most of you, Oversoul is claiming something that is completely useless to us. What use is a role whose information will be revealed by Day 2 (or even by Day 3 if someone gets lucky)?

In post 607, Nachomamma8 wrote:why did you care about her reasoning?

In post 609, Nachomamma8 wrote:but if she did have a decent reason she wasn't...?
she just found you?

In post 841, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 626, Amethyst Kitty wrote:Nacho is a read we both share, neither of us like the mass-claim and neither of us like his push on OS who we both think is probably town.
I figured that he was lying, so I pushed him for it. The massclaim idea you might not like, but I don't really see how that makes me scum.

In post 635, Amethyst Kitty wrote:though I have quite a fair amount of reason for Nacho-scum
I've heard "massclaim, summary, OS is town". That's about it.

In post 641, Amethyst Kitty wrote:Hey Nacho, thoughts on Cehprir?
I don't like the way he's responding so far, but I'm still waiting for the wheels to turn a little more before I give a solid read on him.

In post 677, Bacde wrote:I'm actually down to lynch nacho

this feels like scum-nacho to me

(how was that as a contribution?)
You got me all excited when you said you were gonna provide reasoning later...

In post 686, Bacde wrote:town-nacho would not have tunneled this idiotic OS case for this long

but its the perfect case for him to push as scum
It's also a good case to push as town, considering he was lying and it's a shitty gambit as town.

In post 688, Nero Cain wrote:pfft. Nacho badgering mover asking why Mollie called me an "indie" is just retarded and scummy. That's all that needs to be said.
Why?

In post 734, fuzzybutternut wrote:VOTE: Bulb
Sheeping. Etc.
Hey fuzzy, nice of you to join us? Where have you been?

In post 754, Red Ryu wrote:People should put more votes on Nacho.
Red Ryu! Why didn't you like my observations on Oversoul?

In post 820, Oversoul wrote:I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.
Why did you think that anyone would jump down your throat to get you lynched for it?

In post 1169, Nachomamma8 wrote:Mac seems town so far. There's not a whole lot pointing either way, but I like his interactions with fuzzy so far; fuzzy is a player that's pretty hard to nail down, and Mac has been aggressively attacking him, trying to get something out of it. I also thought the point made in #746 was pretty good.

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

Cephrir's sort of gotten railroaded into defending me a couple of times, but has maintained sufficient paranoia of me the entire game. I like that because it weakens the wagon and weakens the claim on the wagon, but doesn't mean that he actually gains any cred for defending me. His attack on Thor for being overaggressive seemed a little strange, but it was a fair attack considering his mindset, and his progression from Thor to Oversoul was pretty genuine. His mid-back off from B&B seemed fairly town motivated; he was comfortable in arguing with them, but held back a little when the argument pretty much became a semantics fight. His response to B&B accusing him of having unexplained townreads was the reads list in #797, which is a fitting response to the interaction and seemed more like a "screw you" townie response than scum under pressure in the least bit, considering he wasn't under a lot of pressure and could've easily dismissed B&B or bought time by telling them to explain townreads first. Overall, fairly town.

DLG asking me if I still had an early townread on Arc before voting her was sort of strange. It was an early vote and he didn't really have any other suspects, so seeking my approval before making a vote, whether he has me as a townread or not, seems like excessive caution. The attack on ArcAngel lacked a lot as well; I don't mind attacks on someone for not scumhunting, but attacking her for spending no time to seek reasons behind why massclaim is a bad idea, or attacking her because she's posting nothing more than a compliment to the mod... that seems pretty opportunistic. His townreads disappearing on B&B and I seem like they are going away for trivial reasons, but worse is the Bulbazak scumread which comes out of nowhere that he never explains. CTD has a really good point about at the bottom of #957.

Nero Cain is trolling most of the time. Then he latched onto the third party thing, then he made fun of mollie, then he tried to bring as much attention to the situation as possible. It doesn't really seem like a particular strong scum strategy, but I sort of liked that he made an attempt to read the people he was pushing policy lynches on and is pushing a real life scumread instead of the people he generally finds scummy anyways. Town.

I seem to be pretty good at reading Bacde most days. He's probably town again.

In post 1263, Nachomamma8 wrote:Red Ryu's logic in voting me is... weird, but the rest of his posting isn't that bad. The way he's posting the case on me with the whole "he deliberately refused to even consider OS as town", frustration when arguing with Bulbazak, seems fairly genuine, especially since he continues to push me after Oversoul outed as a liar. I don't like how he's so completely and thoroughly tunneling on me in a way similar to Bacde; I would like him to give reads on other people as well.

Syryana read isn't so developed yet, although if I was forced to make a call, I'd lean town. I think that the waffling on me midgame after buddying me so hard was fairly genuine, though; it seems like a waste to butter me up so much and then stab me in the back three posts later if his aim was to get me on his side.

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

I don't understand why it took Slandaar so long to start attacking me based on massclaim discrepancies, considering he brought it up early then sort of postured for a while, then jumped on my wagon when it started to gain momentum. His posting elsewhere has been just weak as shit; he's thrown out a few random reads, but he took FOREVER to vote for some reason and he's probably scum.

In post 1477, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1319, Desperado wrote:can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?
It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

In post 1319, Desperado wrote:Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?
Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I might be different, but I focus a hell of a lot closer on suspect's posting than everyone else, and reading DGB's post would take a little longer than that for me. I guess what I found strange was not that you read it that quickly, but that you read it that quickly AND decided you didn't see anything worth commenting on in that chunk.

In post 1319, Desperado wrote:One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?
CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

In post 1348, CrashTextDummie wrote:I question his current vote, not just because it's on someone I read as town and unlikely to lead anywhere, but also because there's a good wagon waiting to happen on his second choice, DLG.
I think that DLG and Desp are unlikely partners at this point, so I'd rather take care of the stronger scumread first.

In post 1354, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:and what is practically a billboard is his hedge on spice girl; he should be all over that shit cos those are the kind of things he tries to push for in a lynch. spice girl is doing the same thing that a player in another game did and he was all over her (KISS) and he was correct for being so. so it makes me think there is a spice girl/nacho association in there somehow, not sure what to make of it. especially since she beetlejuiced him into the thread. it almost read like a "hey buddy if you keep avoiding the thread you are going to get lynched so get in here!" call out.
You're right about me not picking up on the Baby Spice read harder than I should have been.

In post 1354, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:town nacho has yet to reach out to me and this is something that town nacho usually does even if it is to just say "hey mollie I am town now stfu and stop being difficult"
You're not being difficult this game.

In post 1412, Bacde wrote:Have you ever played with nacho before? He's not a useless player

There's a reason he's playing the way he's playing this game--he's scum
Useless is not the word for it.

In post 1448, thezmon221 wrote:Nacho, why did you post 5 analyses, and then wait another... 26-27 hours before posting the rest?
My laptop broke and I'm forced to play mafia in a public library. I got kicked out.

In post 1502, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 1501, Desperado wrote:How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).
"I think we should call this guy scum."
"No, we should call this guy scum!"
"No, no, that's stupid. We need to attack this guy!"
>.>

Alright, I'm done with that. Next, why we should be lynching Red Ryu or Cephrir or Oversoul! Red first.

Spoiler: Red Post analysis

In post 349, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 206, Nachomamma8 wrote:Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul
Bad claim? Yes.

Was it scummy in itself? No.

Indeed it was scummy. Why is a claim bad and not scummy? Why, if his claim is true, would he only out part of his pro-town information? Why would a role such as Oversoul is claiming have such completely useless information as OS has provided?

In post 423, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 355, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 354, Red Ryu wrote:I'm catching up via phone but your saying informed townie can't exist? I've seen this role and been it, why can't he be one. You seem dead certain he can't without asking a single question about his role.
Informed townie where the piece of information given is "there are at least two killing roles" doesn't exist because it's completely fucking useless information. I seriously doubt that it would be involved in any information he was given, but am not sure.

In post 354, Red Ryu wrote:If he is scummy for other reasons tell me why?
Later.
It can't exist because the info is useless?

Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.

Vote:Nachomamma8

Let me know if who your mates are sometimee down the road.

Nacho is not arguing an informed townie can't exist. He is arguing that the informed townie

as presented by Oversoul

can't exist. Why aren't you reading what Nacho is writing?

In post 430, Red Ryu wrote:Why do you think he is faking it?

We don't know if he is or not and we can only judge him on his votes for now.

You will not judge Oversoul by actions other than votes? How is that good play? Why are you giving Oversoul a pass on his terrible claim and stating you will analyse nothing but his voting patterns? Why isn't it already blatantly obvious Oversoul is faking the claim?

In post 461, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 425, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 423, Red Ryu wrote:Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.
No, it isn't SINCE WE WOULD KNOW BY DAY 2.
So a doctor wouldn't stop a kill? A poisoner is out of the question. People might opt to not shoot? These abilities might be one shot?

He specifically said roles so I wanted to ask again what that ment paraphrased since that info may or may not count mafia/ other things depending jow it was worded.

What's more you show knowledge you already know something about this situation. Wether he is lying or telling the truth.

Ryu is now implying Nacho is informed due to his Oversoul stance. We've moved from a direct defense of Oversoul to a chainsaw defense of Oversoul.

In post 466, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 464, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 461, Red Ryu wrote:So a doctor wouldn't stop a kill? A poisoner is out of the question. People might opt to not shoot? These abilities might be one shot?

He specifically said roles so I wanted to ask again what that ment paraphrased since that info may or may not count mafia/ other things depending jow it was worded.

What's more you show knowledge you already know something about this situation. Wether he is lying or telling the truth.
Doctor probably doesn't get a successful protect in a 24 person game N1 unless scum are incompetent or extremely unlucky. Poisoner? Yeah, no. People might opt not to shoot? Most one-shot vigs shoot the first night, and people not shooting is an assumption that isn't likely, sorry.
Your making a lot of assumptions here.

Many of which I don't like.

His info legit tells us either how many bad guys out there can kill/factions Indy, or he is teillng is about town.

What this oes tell me is you have no non mechanical reason, which at worst is bad play not scummy, to single Jim out. You want him dead to get a lynch, not to find scum.

More chainsaw. Nacho has excellent reason to think OS is scum, Ryu can't or doesn't want to see it and is now attacking Nacho for it.

In post 468, Red Ryu wrote:I am because lynching him for just claiming informed townie is not something I will support.

If he has done something scummy, no one has shown it.

So you can't analyze why OS has been scummy, but someone has to show you? If you believe him to be town, why aren't you showing evidence of that? Why chainsaw Nacho instead?

In post 496, Red Ryu wrote:But again.

This all comes back to the key problem and one I want to lynch you over because you're making it obvious you're not trying to read OverSoul, you're trying to lynch him for claiming Informed Townie.

You say scum safe claim, but you lack anything to show he is scum.

Ignore the claim, what did he do today that is worth a vote outside of that? Myself and others aren't going to vote him for it.

I think Nacho has pretty clearly shown the scum motivation behind OS's claim. Why can't you see it?

In post 498, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 492, DLG wrote:You got any kind of a read towards ArcAngel9?
Null, I don't like Arc's posts but I don't know enough about him right now.

I think he is newer to mafia, since his posts aren't really adding too much but I'm not sure of his intent.

He needs to post more.

You blast Nacho for his assumptions, but you make them yourself on AA9? She's completed enough games to not be considered new. Why wait on more posting? Why not meta her to figure out her alignment?

In post 754, Red Ryu wrote:People should put more votes on Nacho.

Where's the case on Nacho? All we've seen thus far is "I don't like his Oversoul stance", and that's not a case.

In post 873, Red Ryu wrote:Om is leaning town, he has interest for town to move in the right way. Is looking for direct intent.
Bacde is most likely town. Goofy but town.
Oversoul town if role is legit
Thor still dumbtown.
CrashTextDummi leaning scum, he is caught up with Oversoul the same reason why Nacho is scum. The one difference is how mechanical and simple he is taking his reads like his post #770.
Nacho has been tunneling a read and shown he has never tried to read into intent, he has shown he wants a lynch.

If you aren't listed I don't have a read/I forgot what it was. so null until they gain my interest. Or I just didn't read it, forgot how a 20+ man game was like.

Pretty blatant misrep of Nacho here. Nacho hasn't shown interest in OS's intent? When the whole reason Nacho is voting OS is

the scum intent behind an obvious fakeclaim

?

In post 896, Red Ryu wrote:guys take out the head and the body will die

Nacho is scumbutt #1 and I REFUSE to even CONSIDER bandwagoning anyone else until we get this situation resolve

In post 897, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 894, Nero Cain wrote:no. I'm not gonna vote for Nacho. Not now or ever.
Cop this guy.

Wants to direct a cop investigate onto someone that disagrees on his Nacho read. At best a stupid suggestion, at worst a scum attempt to waste a cop investigate.

In post 926, Red Ryu wrote:wtf no.

Directing who should be copped is far better.

You let people know who you want, if you are the cop, or you tell the cop who may not have a good pick who might be one.

If he dicides to go with a different pick fine by me.

But fuck that, I will direct what I choose.

Someone calls him scum because of his attempted direct, this is his response. His reasoning for wanting to direct the cop investigate sucks.

In post 930, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 912, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 911, Bacde wrote:the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.
Him tunneling a null tell is not scummy?

Him refusing to look into the possibility Oversoul is town?

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

None of this is scummy? Because quite frankly it screams him trying to force a lynch on a slot.

You think Nacho is scum primarily because he's tunneling on Oversoul, but you make no mention of Bacde for doing the exact same thing to Nacho? Also, by this point, OS has admitted his fake claim was a lie, and yet you still tunnel Nacho for voting OS

because he was fakeclaiming

?

In post 933, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 931, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 930, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 912, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 911, Bacde wrote:the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.
Him tunneling a null tell is not scummy?

Him refusing to look into the possibility Oversoul is town?

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

None of this is scummy? Because quite frankly it screams him trying to force a lynch on a slot.
But that's not what Bacde said. He said the case was: Nacho is great at mafia. His posts have been lame. Therefore, he is scum.
That's not a case. That's Correlation Implies Causation.

Did Nacho ever say that Oversoul was a null tell? Or is Oversoul just a null tell for you?
Nacho claimed he was gonna lynch Oversoul because on the sole fact, he claimed informed townie and said there were two killing roles in them game.

He said the information was not possible and useless.

It should be quite the opposite, but if the possibility of him thinking this as town and just focusing hard on this is up think again.

He never tried to consider intent or alignment with this, he admitted this when I pressed him on this. He never tried to consider or ask Oversoul past this, he stuff and sat on him all phase. He has not tried to get over it either, he has been sitting on that claim being the scummiest thing on earth and refuses to consider other possibilities here.

Again, he is not trying to hunt scum, he is trying to force a lynch to get a lynch.

That is scum intent.

Misreps of Nacho, still hasn't admitted/noticed OS has admitted to the fakeclaim.

In post 949, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 942, Bulbazak wrote:Ryu, I went over everything in your last post in one form or another in my response. The only part I didn't was the part about where claiming that info could be legitimate. What you are failing to take into account in this case is that scum could easily know that information and use it to claim informed townie as a way to gain towncred. In reality, his claim proves absolutely nothing that we couldn't deduce ourselves. He didn't even have a specific number, instead giving himself an out with "at least". Even I could have made that assertion. At no point did Nacho say that the role Informed Townie couldn't exist. He said that an Informed Townie with only that sort of information couldn't exist. The fact that you've continued to push it as hard as you have, despite the evidence against such a view, is mindboggling to me.
No they really wouldn't.

Scum may have an information advantage but they do not know everything town or potentially other factions have.
that fact remains Nacho did not have this knowledge at the time that OS was lying
so his reactions are still legitimate tells.

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

Nacho did infact say
he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell,
when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate, that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

The bolded is my biggest issue, town does not do that so easily. Especially just because he claimed informed townie, otherwise he would have unvoted or at least said it was a possibility. The fact is he never did this.

No no no no no no no NONONONONONONO. Like, this is MisRepNachoRUs here. Still ignoring OS's admission, still ignoring Bacde tunneling Nacho.

Let's look at what Red has done this game. Defended Oversoul, tunneled Nacho, attempted to direct night actions and.... that's it. He defends OS from Nacho's initial onslaught, then forgoes the direct defense in favor of chainsawing Nacho. Claims to think Nacho is scum because he never considered OS might be town, even though Nacho says otherwise. Scummier yet, he continues to tunnel Nacho

even after Oversoul admits the lie

. He still has yet to even talk about OS' admission but continues to tunnel Nacho. He also ignores other people (e.g. Bacde) tunneling Nacho even when Nacho's tunneling of OS is one of the main points behind his(Red's) case that Nacho is scum. Red's only other mention of someone that remotely approaches a scumread is Nero Cain which only came up due to Red's attempted direction of the cop's target.

Comprehensive list of reads, with reasons. Now.

Moving right along to Oversoul.

Welp, OS's fakeclaim has been beaten to death, so I'm not going to go over it again. It was fake, he claims it was a reaction test, I don't believe him, moving onward. Let's look at other things he's done instead.

Actually, on second ISO, Oversoul hasn't actually done anything not related to his fakeclaim. He has a couple of token sentences playing with people but by and large his entire ISO deals with his gambit/fakeclaim. So, since he did all that for a reaction test he must have some amazing results, right? Commented my reactions to/analysis of his results

like so

.

Spoiler: His results, faithfully commented

In post 1058, Oversoul wrote:I am going to catalog the reactions to my claim as rejected it, supported it, ignored it.

Rejected it:
Nacho
CTD
Nero Cain
Cephrir
fuzzybutternut
Bulbazak

Supported it:
ArcAngel
Om the Destroyer
Red Ryu
DLG
Thor
Seanald

Ignored it:
BeautyandtheBeast
Slandaar
Desperado
ActionDan
Amethyst Kitty
Bacde
EddieFenix
Mac
Baby Spice

Interesting. Why is this categorized as such? What do you get out of this?

---

I'd like the people in the ignored section to explain why they didn't comment on the mass claim.

---

I'd like to know why Bulbazak and Sry were okay with voting the same wagon that I was voting, despite thinking that I was scum for my claim.

This game has multiple scum. I've no problem helping you bus a buddy. What's your point?

---

Looking at Fuzzy's early early game posts I don't really think he is town. Looking at his activity after the early early game it gets mildly better but not enough to warrant a town read without extensive meta; he doesn't really seem to be scumhunting either. I question, sternly (yes I am looking at you), where the AK hydra got that town read on fuzzy.

If you are curious as to why I don't think fuzzy is town it is for posts like these

In post 302, fuzzybutternut wrote:So that list is in no order then?

In post 223, fuzzybutternut wrote:Why did you claim. OS?

In post 233, fuzzybutternut wrote:If we do that, we're popcorning.

In post 292, fuzzybutternut wrote:Really, Sland?

Cool.

In post 361, fuzzybutternut wrote:Multiple Personality disordered. LOL

VOTE: Oversoul
His iso is notably void of any scumhunting whatsoever.

Welcome to fuzzyville, we hope you enjoy your stay.

Upon my reskim (yes I stupidly went page by page instead of iso, I don't know why) of the thread I didn't realize that the support for my slot mainly came from one player, Arcangel. I had not realized how much she was buddying me and calling my wagon bad.
Not to mention she expressed the newb scum fear of "that wagon grew fast, careful of quicklynch!" that I think is typical of newer players still working out the kinks on how to play scum.

I can't read Arc for shit either way, but that is just something I want others to note as it took me by surprise.

It bugs you that she's buddying you like she is, and you still can't decide on her alignment?

I guess I over exaggerated my "support" for the claim when answering CTD mainly because of this fact, but I didn't get as much heat for it as I would like.
I blame the fact that some players were slow starters. Even then, some players, Seanald for example, did go back and comment on it whereas others simply completely ignored it. Some were even close in proximity (by page) to the claim itself, such as Slandaar.

I was under the impression you fakeclaimed in part to kill support for the massclaim. What?

In post 336, Cephrir wrote:Townies are going to be able to look at the same information as you and come to different conclusions, even if you are town. Welcome to mafia. Welcome to earth. You are not the standard for objectivity. This is patently obvious. Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me": Not a towntell since ever.
I am also interested in Cephrir since he has acted awkwardly with regards to my wagon.
He votes me after attacking my reasoning for the claim and similarly parroting Nacho's reasoning that the town would have the information my Informed status would give them.

Then in the very next post he makes, he considers the possibility that what I said was true, but he views it in a skeptical manner as if he *doesn't* think there are going to be multiple killers. He uses the potential for multiple killers as a way to fence sit on the overall idea of a massclaim in general.

In post 242, Cephrir wrote:If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.
Not to mention he parrots information that *I* said when referring to the fact that "a million reviewers" reviewed the game.

In post 285, Cephrir wrote:I wouldn't go that far (@283). I'm not stubborn enough to refuse to claim if it's going through anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'm against it. I suppose Oversoul's information was useful after all, because I would abstain otherwise, lulz.
Here he legitimately believes the claim despite everything saying that it influenced his decision to be against the mass claim in general.
If he believes it, his reasoning for the vote on me doesn't apply anymore. Why does he continue to vote me then at this point in the game?

So, you've said all this stuff about Cephrir, what do you think about him? What point were you making? Is he scum, town, indie, jester, what?

In post 325, Om the Destroyer wrote:
In post 324, Cephrir wrote:Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.
Well don't just sit there like a lump on that boring old Oversoul wagon!
Help me push this! It'll be fun, fruitful, and lynch a scum!

~

In post 327, Cephrir wrote:Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast
Here he only votes BatB because of Om the Destroyer's prompting even after stating they had just made his scumlist and that their reasoning for the town list is self centered.

That doesn't look like a townie thought process at all in my opinion especially considering he then explains the reasoning behind his vote without ever so much as attempting to do that with my wagon.

---

Red Ryu wagon, I ... don't know why I voted Ryu when the game started. I think it was something that I thought was odd during pregame but I can't be certain. I honestly don't remember.

Why don't you try ISOing Red, that might help.

Red Ryu seems to legitimately believe in my claim asking for further clarification on it as if there was information to be gathered from it.

Yeah, he believes so passionately, he even disregards your admission it was fake. Why not pursue that?

Tid bit, I have actually seen Red Ryu play on his home forum. I dabbled a bit there and Ryu is a moderator. I didn't remember this until he linked back to it. I considered Ryu to be a good player there but his play here just seems different, almost dumber (I don't mean this an insult Ryu). It doesn't seem like he realizes things that I think he should be.

Irrelevant. Why aren't you going after Red?

I think his response to Nacho in 423 is fairly town. It has that townie bravado at the end and shows continued to support for the claim on the basis of the claim itself.

I guess this is also where I get I impression that I had a lot of support because Ryu is supporting me a lot like Arc. I hadn't noticed that.

Red Ryu
, would you be willing to explain the justification for the activity post in 864?

In post 873, Red Ryu wrote:Oversoul town if role is legit
I am curious to know what my standing is now.

In post 943, EddieFenix wrote:Hey Oversoul, answer me this.

Before the reveal of your "gambit", what reads did you have/gather?
Admittedly not much. I hadn't really put much thought into this game other than the reads that I felt while the gambit was still going on.

For posterity sake, that was town: Thor, Om, CTD, BatB. Scum: Nacho, and fuzzy for their actions regarding my wagon.

Wow. Considering you talked about Fuzzy, Om, Red, Cephrir in your wall there, you seem to have a lot of town/scum reads for your little "reaction test". You read a lot of people you never mentioned, and didn't read half the people you did mention. Dubya tee fuck?

I'm currently just waiting on a few things before I start to make waves.

Da fuq you waitin on?

Well, those reaction results sure were interesting. I might have to read them again for giggles.

Spoiler: Oops I read it again

Yeah. My comments kinda speak for themselves. Summary of Oversoul's play up to this point: I claimed, I lied for reactions, I didn't get anything good or sensible. His reads suck(and have little to do with his supposed "analysis"), he's done jack shit other than lie to us. Definitely scum.

Aaaaaaaaand Cephrir! Why do I think he's scum, you ask? Well, yer about to find out!

Spoiler: I bet you're tired of spoilers by now (Cephrir)

In post 324, Cephrir wrote:Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

In post 327, Cephrir wrote:Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

So, Om walks his merry way onto your scumlist because of how they made their scumlist and three posts later you're sheeping their read? That's almost enough to call you scum right there.

In post 346, Cephrir wrote:
In post 340, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 336, Cephrir wrote:Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me"
You mean, like why I'm not giving all the reasons behind all my reads?

Oh shit, look at that.
I'm arguing with the part where you said Slandaar and AA9 are town for no other reason than agreeing with you, not because you refuse to give reasons. Though I can't say I'm especially a fan of that either.

In post 358, Cephrir wrote:
In post 322, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 320, Cephrir wrote:I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.
It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes. Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.
"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

@Nacho: I see what you're saying, but I'm not willing to rule it out entirely yet. I'm interested to hear his other information before we make such a decision, as it could make the role less pointless. If he does choose to reveal that there are multiple killing roles D1, though, it does potentially impact our lynch decision and therefore maybe isn't completely useless (for instance, "you aren't scumhunting" becomes a weaker argument).

Fencesitting on Oversoul (wants to hear his other information, without realizing that withholding that information is inherently anti-town), yet is certain that B&B is now scum (ironically for the same reasons he put Om on his scumlist before that shameless sheep).

In post 398, Cephrir wrote:
Ceph wrote:
In post 374, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 373, Cephrir wrote: I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...
Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?
I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.
Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 378, Om the Destroyer wrote: Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?
1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only
ever
about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.
Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?

So your case against B&B now includes both "I don't like how you read your reads" AND "I don't like how you're responding to my clearly impeccable argument". My my.

In post 420, Cephrir wrote:Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.

Fuzzy: Why? That doesn't seem to jive with anything else you've said.

Clearly someone needs to meta fuzzy. Why does Nero's pretending to have a PR matter?

In post 639, Cephrir wrote:
In post 638, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 70, Cephrir wrote:
In post 61, Thor665 wrote:Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.
I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

Vote: Thor
THIS is perpetuating RVS. He's voting someone
for trying to get us out of RVS
. "Wah! The game hasn't started yet! You can't start being serious! Wah!"

Scum.
He was suspicious of someone for confirming. You can't tell me that's not ridiculous.

B&B wrote:
In post 85, Cephrir wrote:Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.
#tryinghardtolookliketownposting
Wow, what a shitty point. You could say that about anything that sounds like a townie post.

B&B wrote:
In post 117, Cephrir wrote:Beauty and roflcopter are both incredibly silly.
>Doesn't know what to say when two townies are fighting, but feels a need to say SOMETHING because "look I'm participating in meaningful discussion!"
Just my way of saying I thought the two of you were townvtowning...

B&B wrote:
In post 219, Cephrir wrote:How is that role supposed to be anything but useless? We'd find out that information after Night 1 anyway. Not to mention you just outed yourself as not having any useful abilities for no reason?

If you were intending to claim before CTD suggested a massclaim, why didn't you do it during pregame?

I've only skimmed the last couple pages but for now,

Vote: Oversoul
>Shameless wagon hop
Number 1
Yes I'm obviously scum for changing my vote, that makes sense. I also spent this post detailing why I was about to vote Oversoul, it's not like I didn't have reasons.

B&B wrote:
In post 242, Cephrir wrote:Reads after actually reading intervening pages: Amethyst Kitty, DLG, rofl, Beauty for town. Ryu confuses me, want to see more. Scum vibes from fuzzy but I also thought he was scum in Amnesiac Mafia and he wasn't, so... eh. I don't know how I feel about Thor- the questioning/deliberately obtuse playstyle is kind of annoying but Beauty seems to suggest this is not out of the ordinary.

If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.
This is a lot of words for an awful lot of nothing. Who does that? Oh yeah. Scum.
I listed some town reads and an opinion about massclaim (leaning no). And it's not even that many words.

B&B wrote:
In post 324, Cephrir wrote:Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.
>Needed a reason to OMGUS.
Wow it turns out if you want to portray every action someone takes as scum, you *can*! It's not like your logic wasn't complete garbage, or like Om had just posted really good reasons to vote you as had I in my previous post....

Cephrir wrote:
In post 327, Cephrir wrote:Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast
>Shameless wagon hop
Number 2
This wasn't even a wagon yet.

B&B wrote:
In post 438, Cephrir wrote:If you're implying meta, Fenix is a Goon and thus probably not aware of it.
Possible scum slip that should be followed up on with investigative roles on Fenix if Cephrir flips scum.
What the actual fuck are you talking about? His user title is Goon, as opposed to Mafia Scum, so he is new and doesn't know about meta.

B&B wrote:
In post 629, Cephrir wrote:Guess I need to take another look at Nacho as I have him as null. Will do tomorrow.
>Preparing for shameless wagon hop
Number 3
Way to suspect me for something I hadn't even done yet, and I have no intention of voting Nacho, I just want to try to see what everyone else is seeing. No, don't worry, my vote was never going to leave you for quite a while.

That was one of the most retarded cases I have ever responded to. Reach harder.

Calling the case retarded is not a good method of debunking a case. Most of your rebuttals involve not seeing (or refusing to see) what B&B was talking about.

In post 645, Cephrir wrote:Oh, it's okay for you to withhold reasons for your town reads, but not me. Okay. That said I'll gladly provide reasons for all my reads up to this point fairly soon. The only thing your back-and-forth with Om established was that you're an idiot, and you managed to refute approximately nothing. Most of your other points consist mostly of "Nuh uh that wasn't what you were going to do" (a useless argument) and "You're trying to look town" (a teleological argument).

Gonna go back to ignoring you now.

I would love to see this. Also, when did you

start

ignoring Bulba? Why are you ignoring Bulba? Why were you ignoring Bulba before?

In post 655, Cephrir wrote:
In post 652, Oversoul wrote:
In post 626, Amethyst Kitty wrote:His suggestion to mass-claim seems genuine IMO and Nacho has done far more scummier stuff other then the mass-claim anyway
It's alignment neutral.

CTD did it in the recently finished invitational NY game as scum traitor. However, he did do much more in my opinion here to try and get mass claim to occur than in that game.

Are you following that thread in MD stating that Nacho's summary is a scumtell?
I can't help but read CTD as town for pushing the massclaim so hard.

The existence of the MD thread makes the summary scumtell stupid.

Pointing out useless posts is equally useless.

Cursory reread of Nacho has me liking him more than I did before, so I'd like to hear what's so very scummy about him.

CTD has already established his pushing massclaim is alignment null. Why are you now townreading him for it? I do find it nicely ironic that his reread of Nacho has him leaning town after B&B bit into his ass for his incoming bandwagon hop.

In post 797, Cephrir wrote:Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie
- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG
- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar
- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer
- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8
- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain
- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix
- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty
- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac
- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde
- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu
- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak
- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut
- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul
- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast
- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9
- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado
Baby Spice
Seanald
ActionDan
Rondar

This reads list is fascinating. His Om read sticks out in particular. Remember that time when he thought Om was scum? His reasoning for that was terrible: "I don't like how Om generates his reads". He makes a note of Om's white knighting, but continues to read him as town. Whoa, hold up. You thought he was scum for insanely retarded reasons, but now you think he's town

in spite of far more alarming things like white knighting

? His Oversoul scumread also is somewhat interesting as he cites reasons that others have already gone over. Could have at least mentioned

what

those reasons are.

I also found it amusing how he felt the need to point out my reads suck. Funny, considering he's in my scum pile and, more importantly, he's now put two (three if you count me) people on his scumlist because "making reads based off whether or not you agree with person X".

In post 1003, Cephrir wrote:
In post 1001, Bacde wrote:
In post 998, Cephrir wrote:Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.
I think this may be tough for you to see because my case is nacho-specific

if a different player was acting the way nacho is right now, maybe they could be town maybe

but not nacho

nacho is scum
Well, okay. I believe that you have reasons now, they just aren't reasons that can possibly convince me.

So what does that tell you about Bacde? Anything?

In post 1043, Cephrir wrote:Things I learned on page 42: Bacde is town, AA9 is scum. I mean I already knew the second one but w/e

Why? What is the purpose of this post? Looks like filler to me.

In post 1080, Cephrir wrote:Oversoul- I acted as though your info was true because even if you were scum, you would know whether there are (probably) multiple killing groups. I had you figured for an SK or a member of a less-than-6?-man-mafia. While I still believe you are scum, I'm more suspicious of both B&B and AA9. Now that I think in a comparative light, maybe Fuzzy and Ryu as well.

Wait, you figured OS was lying and scum and yet you are more interested in pushing B&B and AA9? And now you want to go after Fuzzy and Ryu too? Wat.

In post 1296, Cephrir wrote:Posting a bunch of reads with detailed reasons is not scummy. It is, in fact, the opposite of scummy, unless the reasons are bad.

Could someone expand on this AA9 meta stuff? Or are we gonna do the hush hush I need this info to be secret for other games thing?

Want to see more from Baby Spice, Syry, Macslot, Fuzzy. A little suspicious of all of them.

And we're up to like 15 scumspects from Cephrir now.

In post 1434, Cephrir wrote:Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

I was going to vote fuzzy eventually, but if there's going to be another vote on him then the second makes enough to actually be pressure. I probably should have voted earlier, I suppose.

I like all the replacements thus far but their day-to-day play will potentially be more telling. I always think catch-up posts are town unless they have everything ass-backwards (see: Syry).

@Mollie: I was saying it seems like a playstyle issue.

Hey look, he's calling me shit again. Excellent. He also doesn't appear to understand what a bus is. Understandable, since he refuses to do it (see his Oversoul stance).

In post 1510, Cephrir wrote:
In post 1508, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1504, Amethyst Kitty wrote:
In post 1494, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1486, Bacde wrote:I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though
If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?
Interestinggggg.
What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?
Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town? He was in your null list, then you said he was town, but never said why. Why isn't DespvNacho townvtown?

In post 1518, Cephrir wrote:@Bulba:
Bulbazak wrote:
Cephrir wrote:
In post 1508, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1504, Amethyst Kitty wrote:
In post 1494, Bulbazak wrote: P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?
Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.
Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?
Huh. I thought I had already laid out my reasons for that read, but I guess I've never stated them clearly. Even though I don't agree with his main line of reasoning, it's plainly genuine, I don't think anyone will argue with that. I liked his interactions with AA9 particularly and find he often puts my thoughts in better words than I did when he's not talking about Nacho. In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum and he's taken a few inconvenient positions (admitting Oversoul could actually be scum, for instance, which seems detrimental to his argument, could have agreed to lynch me for a free vote tomorrow and backed off, didn't take the easy route and suspect Hanzo, and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus)

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

Why isn't it a bus? Also, if you're going to say Nacho and Desp isn't town v town, shouldn't you at least have some vague idea of which is which? This fencesitting is scummy as hell.

Whew. Alright. Ceph is scum too. TLDR for Ceph case: he's been flowing with other people's cases. He never attacks a target unless someone else has first. He makes statements and fencesits or dodges when asked for explanations. His reads are not fluid and make little sense. He admits he knew Oversoul was lying and believes him to be scum, but instead pushes other targets (e.g. B&B, AA9, others). According to his most recent posts, he also suspects pretty much everyone not on his town list.

TLDR: Pick one of Red, Ceph and Oversoul. Then click reply, click vote, and type the name you picked. Then submit.

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #1541 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 3:34 pm

Syry's town <3

Happy to state as such

Nacho's most recent posting has caused me to rethink my scum read on him.

I'm happy on Ceph though

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #1542 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 3:35 pm

~Mara

Syryana · Post Post #1543 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 3:56 pm

In post 1541, Amethyst Kitty wrote:Syry's town <3

Happy to state as such

Nacho's most recent posting has caused me to rethink my scum read on him.

I'm happy on Ceph though

Mara, why do you think Ceph is scum? Looked at your ISO and you never said.

ISO · Post Post #1544 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Wow that is a lot of misreading. It'd be sweet if people could actually read this instead of assuming Syry's case is remotely valid at all seeing as about half of it is based on not knowing who I'm talking about.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 324, Cephrir wrote:Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

In post 327, Cephrir wrote:Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast
So, Om walks his merry way onto your scumlist because of how they made their scumlist and three posts later you're sheeping their read? That's almost enough to call you scum right there.

The first post you quote is referring to B&B, not Om. Om has not been on my scumlist at any point.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 346, Cephrir wrote:
In post 340, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 336, Cephrir wrote:Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me"
You mean, like why I'm not giving all the reasons behind all my reads?

Oh shit, look at that.
I'm arguing with the part where you said Slandaar and AA9 are town for no other reason than agreeing with you, not because you refuse to give reasons. Though I can't say I'm especially a fan of that either.

In post 358, Cephrir wrote:
In post 322, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 320, Cephrir wrote:I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.
It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes. Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.
"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

@Nacho: I see what you're saying, but I'm not willing to rule it out entirely yet. I'm interested to hear his other information before we make such a decision, as it could make the role less pointless. If he does choose to reveal that there are multiple killing roles D1, though, it does potentially impact our lynch decision and therefore maybe isn't completely useless (for instance, "you aren't scumhunting" becomes a weaker argument).
Fencesitting on Oversoul (wants to hear his other information, without realizing that withholding that information is inherently anti-town), yet is certain that B&B is now scum (ironically for the same reasons he put Om on his scumlist before that shameless sheep).

Again, was referring to B&B all along. How did this not tip you off to that? Your addendum as to how I'm fencesitting on Oversoul doesn't make any sense. Like actually, what is that supposed to say?

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 398, Cephrir wrote:
Ceph wrote:
In post 374, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 373, Cephrir wrote: I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...
Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?
I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.
Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 378, Om the Destroyer wrote: Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?
1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only
ever
about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.
Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?
So your case against B&B now includes both "I don't like how you read your reads" AND "I don't like how you're responding to my clearly impeccable argument". My my.

In post 420, Cephrir wrote:Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.

Fuzzy: Why? That doesn't seem to jive with anything else you've said.
Clearly someone needs to meta fuzzy. Why does Nero's pretending to have a PR matter?

I played in another game with fuzzy in which he was town just these past few weeks. Though rather useless, he at least appeared to be trying. Nero's pretending to have a PR only matters insofar as he wasn't posting content when he could have been.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote: Calling the case retarded is not a good method of debunking a case. Most of your rebuttals involve not seeing (or refusing to see) what B&B was talking about.

No, they don't? And saying my rebuttals suck without backing

that

up is hardly better?

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 645, Cephrir wrote:Oh, it's okay for you to withhold reasons for your town reads, but not me. Okay. That said I'll gladly provide reasons for all my reads up to this point fairly soon. The only thing your back-and-forth with Om established was that you're an idiot, and you managed to refute approximately nothing. Most of your other points consist mostly of "Nuh uh that wasn't what you were going to do" (a useless argument) and "You're trying to look town" (a teleological argument).

Gonna go back to ignoring you now.
I would love to see this. Also, when did you
start
ignoring Bulba? Why are you ignoring Bulba? Why were you ignoring Bulba before?

I was talking to B&B. Again. "You're trying to look town" is a teleological argument in that it can be applied to just about literally anything and no one can possibly say anything to argue against it (aside from "nuh uh").

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 655, Cephrir wrote:
In post 652, Oversoul wrote:
In post 626, Amethyst Kitty wrote:His suggestion to mass-claim seems genuine IMO and Nacho has done far more scummier stuff other then the mass-claim anyway
It's alignment neutral.

CTD did it in the recently finished invitational NY game as scum traitor. However, he did do much more in my opinion here to try and get mass claim to occur than in that game.

Are you following that thread in MD stating that Nacho's summary is a scumtell?
I can't help but read CTD as town for pushing the massclaim so hard.

The existence of the MD thread makes the summary scumtell stupid.

Pointing out useless posts is equally useless.

Cursory reread of Nacho has me liking him more than I did before, so I'd like to hear what's so very scummy about him.
CTD has already established his pushing massclaim is alignment null. Why are you now townreading him for it? I do find it nicely ironic that his reread of Nacho has him leaning town after B&B bit into his ass for his incoming bandwagon hop.

I was reading Nacho as nulltown before, reread, and my opinion didn't change. As I've stated before this alleged wagon hop I was going to make is a pointless argument, because I wasn't going to do that, and there's no way for me to prove it.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 797, Cephrir wrote:Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie
- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG
- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar
- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer
- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8
- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain
- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix
- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty
- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac
- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde
- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu
- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak
- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut
- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul
- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast
- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9
- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado
Baby Spice
Seanald
ActionDan
Rondar
This reads list is fascinating. His Om read sticks out in particular. Remember that time when he thought Om was scum? His reasoning for that was terrible: "I don't like how Om generates his reads". He makes a note of Om's white knighting, but continues to read him as town. Whoa, hold up. You thought he was scum for insanely retarded reasons, but now you think he's town
in spite of far more alarming things like white knighting
? His Oversoul scumread also is somewhat interesting as he cites reasons that others have already gone over. Could have at least mentioned
what
those reasons are.

I also found it amusing how he felt the need to point out my reads suck. Funny, considering he's in my scum pile and, more importantly, he's now put two (three if you count me) people on his scumlist because "making reads based off whether or not you agree with person X".

Yet again, never suspected Om. I could have repeated reasons others have already used for suspecting Oversoul, and then you would have accused me of parroting others' reasons instead. I pointed out that your reads suck because I don't agree with them. I didn't label you scum for it, just wrong. I don't see what's funny about that.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1003, Cephrir wrote:
In post 1001, Bacde wrote:
In post 998, Cephrir wrote:Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.
I think this may be tough for you to see because my case is nacho-specific

if a different player was acting the way nacho is right now, maybe they could be town maybe

but not nacho

nacho is scum
Well, okay. I believe that you have reasons now, they just aren't reasons that can possibly convince me.
So what does that tell you about Bacde? Anything?

Yes? It told me he wasn't just making shit up?

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1043, Cephrir wrote:Things I learned on page 42: Bacde is town, AA9 is scum. I mean I already knew the second one but w/e
Why? What is the purpose of this post? Looks like filler to me.

Well, in the last post you quoted you wanted to know how I felt about Bacde, and now you're criticizing me for telling you. Listing a townread is hardly filler.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1080, Cephrir wrote:Oversoul- I acted as though your info was true because even if you were scum, you would know whether there are (probably) multiple killing groups. I had you figured for an SK or a member of a less-than-6?-man-mafia. While I still believe you are scum, I'm more suspicious of both B&B and AA9. Now that I think in a comparative light, maybe Fuzzy and Ryu as well.
Wait, you figured OS was lying and scum and yet you are more interested in pushing B&B and AA9? And now you want to go after Fuzzy and Ryu too? Wat.

I don't see the problem with this. I think there's a good chance OS is lying scum, that doesn't mean he has to be my top scumread.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1296, Cephrir wrote:Posting a bunch of reads with detailed reasons is not scummy. It is, in fact, the opposite of scummy, unless the reasons are bad.

Could someone expand on this AA9 meta stuff? Or are we gonna do the hush hush I need this info to be secret for other games thing?

Want to see more from Baby Spice, Syry, Macslot, Fuzzy. A little suspicious of all of them.
And we're up to like 15 scumspects from Cephrir now.

Exaggeration, and some of my earlier scumreads have since changed.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1434, Cephrir wrote:Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

I was going to vote fuzzy eventually, but if there's going to be another vote on him then the second makes enough to actually be pressure. I probably should have voted earlier, I suppose.

I like all the replacements thus far but their day-to-day play will potentially be more telling. I always think catch-up posts are town unless they have everything ass-backwards (see: Syry).

@Mollie: I was saying it seems like a playstyle issue.
Hey look, he's calling me shit again. Excellent. He also doesn't appear to understand what a bus is. Understandable, since he refuses to do it (see his Oversoul stance).

Oh, so you think Bacde is bussing? Lol, okay. And I've already cleared up my stance on Oversoul.

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:
In post 1510, Cephrir wrote:
In post 1508, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1504, Amethyst Kitty wrote:
In post 1494, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 1486, Bacde wrote:I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though
If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?
Interestinggggg.
What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?
Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.
Why is Bacde town? He was in your null list, then you said he was town, but never said why. Why isn't DespvNacho townvtown?
In post 1518, Cephrir wrote:@Bulba:
Bulbazak wrote:
Cephrir wrote: Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.
Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?
Huh. I thought I had already laid out my reasons for that read, but I guess I've never stated them clearly. Even though I don't agree with his main line of reasoning, it's plainly genuine, I don't think anyone will argue with that. I liked his interactions with AA9 particularly and find he often puts my thoughts in better words than I did when he's not talking about Nacho. In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum and he's taken a few inconvenient positions (admitting Oversoul could actually be scum, for instance, which seems detrimental to his argument, could have agreed to lynch me for a free vote tomorrow and backed off, didn't take the easy route and suspect Hanzo, and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus)

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.
Why isn't it a bus? Also, if you're going to say Nacho and Desp isn't town v town, shouldn't you at least have some vague idea of which is which? This fencesitting is scummy as hell.

If I had to pick one now, Desperado. But again, I need to go over the argument again (because I skimmed it the first time).

Seanald · Post Post #1545 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 5:19 pm

VOTE: Nacho
I've decided im willing to follow you bacde

Syryana · Post Post #1546 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 5:44 pm

Om misrep noted. It doesn't really change why you're scum, though.

@Cephrir:
Which of your scumreads have changed and why?
If there's a good chance OS is lying scum and you admit you think he's lying scum, what is it about B&B/AA9 that makes them scummier?

ISO · Post Post #1547 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 6:19 pm

Actually, B&B and AA9 aren't really in my sights anymore. I have B&B as null, maybe nullscum, for now because mollie has been an improvement for the slot. AA9 is scummy, but I've decided to give her a pass for Day 1 because this is typical of her day 1 play. I've said both these things before. I'd say Oversoul ranks right behind fuzzy at present.

Let's talk about everyone I can remember saying I even remotely disliked at all ever.

Macslot- fine now, thezmon is doing fine.
Bulba- liked him since he stopped arguing with Om
Thor?- Had some slight suspicion at some point I think. Basically null.
RR- still a bit on the scummy side but he disappeared.
You- possibly the slightest scumread I've had all game. Still basically null.
Desperado?- this case is currently under review.
BS- still a bit scummy, needs to post.
Oversoul- currently in the back seat
fuzzy- I am voting this guy
B&B- see text of post
AA9- same

That's 11. I'd say anyone who hasn't had at least a slight ping from 11 different players by now isn't paying attention, and I believe that's everyone I've so much as commented "I didn't like X post" for, which doesn't mean they're a scumread.

I'm not sure what your case consists of anymore. Apparently I'm fencesitting while also having too many suspects for you? There's still the alleged Nacho bandwagon vote I was going to make just because I said I wanted to look at him again, and if that point makes you feel good I won't bother continuing to argue it (but you're wrong).

Syryana · Post Post #1548 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 6:46 pm

Aaaaaand Cephrir comes back with 9/11 null tells! Let's hear it for fence sitting, everyone!

My case on you, in short:

In post 1540, Syryana wrote:Whew. Alright. Ceph is scum too. TLDR for Ceph case: he's been flowing with other people's cases. He never attacks a target unless someone else has first. He makes statements and fencesits or dodges when asked for explanations. His reads are not fluid and make little sense. He admits he knew Oversoul was lying and believes him to be scum, but instead pushes other targets (e.g. B&B, AA9, others). According to his most recent posts, he also suspects pretty much everyone not on his town list.

You responded to my last point. Your most recent post proves my fencesitting point and my "reads are not fluid" points.

Your upgrade of B&B to null due to mollie is eyebrow raising to say the least considering the amount of time you spent on them earlier in the game.

What has mollie done that you liked (general summary, not reading long quote walls, spoilers are there for a reason)?
What's the verdict on Desperado (when you get done with it)?
Why is RR's disappearance making him less of a subject of interest?

And, most importantly:
Why are you concentrating on two suspects when there are (bare minimum) 6 scum?

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #1549 (ISO) » Wed May 15, 2013 7:03 pm

No, I didn't

but for me, it's more of the fact that he isn't scum-hunting. Active, or Passive. there is some food for thought, but there isn't any analysis in his posts. He's laying out what he thinks, but not stating what it means or how it equates to ones alignment.

He's been stating that Mollie's post are townish, though still maintained suspicion on that slot and, as you stated he is going with the flow.

His list doesn't make much sense either. he placed Nacho at Null town, yet stated that there were a few smaller things in his posts that deserves some FOS merit. He defends nacho while keeping his distance from him which strikes me as incredibly odd.

he is also trying really hard to keep middle ground

~Mara