NY 162: A Week at the Theatres (Game Over)

[KingdomAces]

You have been Mafia before as well, so if you actually believe that's possible, then you must be scum yourself.
VOTE: Human Destroyer

Anyway, I'd say don't target the PGO, but still hold him up to the same, if not stricter, standards than everyone else. Even if he is a PGO, that doesn't mean he's town.

[KingdomAces]

That was RVS. Anyway, there's really no reason to say that his claim is true right now. Scum miller claims have been successful recently, so why would you think they wouldn't start claiming PGO? Assumptions can kill. I

think

PGO's are allowed in normal games, so the claim still could be true.

Bacde, I'll decide that for myself, thank you.

[KingdomAces]

Really Bacde? Stop calling yourself confirmed town. You're not, and the way you are going on about it is making me start to doubt you're town at all.
UNVOTE: Human Destroyer, VOTE: Bacde

The best train of thought about the PGO is to ignore the claim during the day, and judge them on other things. All it is is a distraction, because it allows for non-game-specific discussion. Scum can talk about things unrelated to the game all they want, and they end up looking townier for it. Don't give them the chance.

[KingdomAces]

UNVOTE: Bacde Only because this is supposedly his meta. I personally don't agree with how he's acting, but I've never played with him before. I might check his meta myself later, but for now I'll just defer to those who have.

Wind-up, I was trying to imply what I ended up outright saying in 36, but the conversation kept going back to it, and really there wasn't much else to talk about. The two games I immediately thought of involving millers were Disney Villains Mafia and Micro 34. Both games were won in large parts due to people claiming miller, and getting written off as a suspect because of it.


Now this argument. First, I want to say that I feel that Zepher has been completely null to me so far. Yeah he's made some scummy posts, but they don't look like things scum would actually post. If you want to call WIFOM, fine. It's still nowhere near enough to have a significant scumread over. Go's frequent calls for town to shut up and quicklynch him over shoddy evidence is far more worth looking at in my opinion.

Anyway, now the part where Destroyer gets involved. About Dram's vote, you should probably wait for him to comment about it instead of arguing over what it might be. Unless Dram says otherwise, this seems a lot like the RVS exchange I had with Destroyer. Person A votes Person B due to history, Person B makes sarcastic comment back, Go assumes it was completely serious. This part just looks like a difference of opinion where neither side understands the other's perspective.

Go's initial question pretty much sums up the rest of the argument. The question wasn't "Do you think Zepher is town." It was

Human Destroyer, do you actually think MrZepher is town? If so why. Please point out to me posts where he has towntold so I can get a scumread on you and lynch you.

Go had already decided what he thought of Destroyer before he even gave him a chance. All Destroyer saw was the malicious intent of the question, so he responded without bothering to find it's actual meaning. This cycle continued the rest of the time.

tl;dr/Two sentence summary:

Go rushes into assumptions and refuses to step back and think about them. Destroyer challenges these assumptions, and provides no reason for Go to think twice.

Go, stop and think a bit before continuing. I just want to put this out there before this starts up again.

[KingdomAces]

SERIOUSLY!! CAN YOU AT LEAST READ MY TL;DR BEFORE CONTINUING!

I don't want to rage post, but this is accomplishing nothing the way you two are going back and forth on each other.

[KingdomAces]

Anyway, now that's over with it's time to go on to what I actually think of alignments. Despite the rampant arguing, both Go and Destroyer seem to be coming from town mindsets. Not exactly helpful town, but still probably town. Go because there's no reason to think that he's actually going to get that mislynch this early in an 18p game, and Destroyer because I've gotten into that type of fight before, and the way Destroyer is acting here greatly reminds me of what I was thinking then.

Go, I understand where the "he was thinking ahead of time about what he would be voted for" comes from. If he was actually thinking about that before he posted, then I highly doubt he would have actually posted 29. Really he doesn't make all that much sense any way I look at it, so I'm just going to go with Zepher being null for now.

All ZONEACE has done so far has been troll. He's null until he does something else. That's actually my read on most of the game honestly, trolling part included. I haven't noticed anything particularly scummy yet from anyone.

[KingdomAces]

Go, I can't speak for how useful logic is at EM, but here it's going to be your main weapon since reactions are less useful. I'm not saying that reactions can't help, but scum are going to have more time to plan responses and pick what they're going to say. You need logic to see through that.

Zepher, if you'd looked a bit more closely, you'd see that it was an unvote. Also, I thought it looked like town on town that was escalating towards a 1v1, so yeah I was trying to stop that before it happened.

[KingdomAces]

They haven't been on for five hours, so yelling at them to stop now is pointless. Do you have any opinions on the argument while you're here?

[KingdomAces]

Jacob, your vote has been on ZONEACE since RVS. Do you still think he's scum, and if so why?

Dan, are you aware of NS's reputation? Also, how have you gotten enough from Jacob to call him a townread?

[KingdomAces]

Jacob really needs to start contributing. It seems like every time he posts, he never actually gives us anything. The main post that is causing me to think that he's scum instead of just unhelpful is 139. When I made a post like that, it was as they were arguing, and I had already tried once more casually to stop them. Someone also mentioned that posting that gave them a townread on me. When Jacob posted that hours after the argument had ended for the day, literally the only purpose it could possibly serve would be to get some excess townreads from anyone who thought it was town when I did it.
VOTE: JacobSavage

Greygnarl, what did you expect would happen if you intentionally made a bad post? I don't know what you're trying to do, but stop it.

Among other things, Zepher seems to have trouble being able to read. He has misread or missed too many things for someone who has actively criticized other people for not reading. As for what I think of him alignment-wise, I really can't tell. He has posted far more irrelevant things than relevant, but that's not necessarily indicative of scum. I'll keep thinking about this, but right now I'm getting nowhere.

I was going to try to post about more people, but I realize that I have almost nothing to say about anyone, and trying to figure something out is giving me a headache.

[KingdomAces]

I actually don't think Dram posting elsewhere while not posting here necessarily makes him scum. He's played enough here to know that people would see though that kind of thing instantly. I might consider that a scumslip if the person who did it was playing their first few games, but Dram is not. If he actually was scum, he would have been smart enough to not tell an easily disprovable lie to attempt to get away from lurking. That doesn't mean I don't want an explanation though.

ActionDan, why do you think JacobSavage is town?

[KingdomAces]

NS, if I was scum with Dram, do you really think I would be stupid enough to post that? I would have far more quickly bussed him then made an obvious defense if I thought he was playing that badly. Yes, I know it's WIFOM, but even with that it's not worth it.

Bacde, why do you need to be convinced that you're town?

[KingdomAces]

Bacde still seems off to me. I understand asking someone why they think you are town to get a read on them, but since he accepted a near identical explanation to what Destroyer had already given that doesn't seem like that was actually the real intent.

Greygnarl, are you planning on purposely acting scummy the whole game? I would say that he's acting to scummy to actually be scum, but too many people have done that this game that it's not a valid point anymore. Also, I'm not watching that video, so could you explain yourself in a way that require it?

Posting theory is null, and simply restating general consensus is null/leaning scum. I still find it hard to believe you can actually get a townread from that. If there is anything specific about his Jacob's meta that makes him look more town here, then that would be for more helpful.

How is voting someone you think is town a scumtell? This goes to anyone who wants to lynch Dram because of his vote on Smash. His explanation for not posting seems valid, so that leaves no real case on him.

Zepher, do you have anything to say about the multiple posts regarding you that were actually sensical?

[KingdomAces]

Actually just Trollie's. In reread Dram's post wasn't respondable to.

Also, the "How is voting someone you think is town a scumtell" question applies to you as well.

[KingdomAces]

Trollie, that was in response to Zepher's preceding comment.

GreyGnarl, if you want people to pay attention to you, you need to stop purposely saying stupid stuff. You've already done that quite a few times already, and at this point you're never going to get a successful reaction from doing so. Now will you please start playing the game properly?

[KingdomAces]

I really don't like what contributions Jacob has given us so far, but with deadline approaching and him being on V/LA, I guess there's no reason to be voting him right now.
UNVOTE: JacobSavage

Even with the double ISO, I don't agree with the case against NS. I've read a few of his games, and all of that seems fairly normal for him.

Right now of the wagons, I'd join a lynch of Greygnarl, Bacde, or Zepher. I can see how any of them could be scum, and they only seem to be making the game worse. I really don't have any scumreads right now, and I really have nothing to say that hasn't already been said.

If you have any specific questions, ask and I'll do my best to answer.

Also, I just realized that I've been voting Bacde on every single votecount so far, including the ones where my vote is also on Jacob.

Mod: This is an error, right?

~

It's possible, pig.

(Yes, it is an error. "A technicality that will shortly be remedied.")

[KingdomAces]

Sorry, I've been putting this off for far too long. It takes forever for me to type up posts, so I just hadn't felt like actually starting one until the last possible moment.

Anyway, I'm most suspicious of ActionDan right now. All he's been doing is tunneling NS for reasons that can be described as "because he's NS." Simultaneously, he was white knighting all of the possible lynches near deadline yesterday while not giving any solid reasons for any of them, and then with 603 he made sure everyone knew that he opposed the eventual lynch. The only purpose I can see for that is attempting to gain cheap favor with the town, which could be done as either alignment but would be more useful as scum. If you combine that with the fact that he set it up so he could do that with whoever town ended up lynching, the scum motivation is a lot more apparent then why he would post that as town.

VOTE: ActionDan

As to what I think of NS, he hasn't done anything that is making me think one way or the other about him. Yeah, he changed his read on Zepher since the beginning of the day, but I don't see how that is a scumtell at all. While he is definitely not a townread right now, I don't think his scumminess so far has been great enough to warrant a tunnel above everyone else who is playing with a similar style to him right now.

My thoughts on JacobSavage haven't changed since yesterday. This would normally be the part where I say that he needs to post more for me to get a read on him, but I realize that I'm in no position to say that right now. The one new post of his of mention is 640, where before that his most recent post was promising reads, but instead all he's doing is making a useless remark that shows that he has the ability to post, but isn't doing anything with it.

I'm divided on MrZepher's claim that he would have killed Rofl instead of Trollie. Trollie would still be a better kill for the rest of MrZepher's hypothetical scumteam due to being more of a townread to most people than Rofl, while it would still preform a similar function for him. The fact that he's saying that makes me think that he hasn't discussed this with other people, which would mean that he isn't scum, but there is still the possibility that he is scum who actually argued for killing Rofl/someone other than those two and got outvoted, and is now trying to use the fact that he didn't get the kill he wanted as proof he's not scum. Right now I'm leaning slightly towards the former mostly because he seems to have the same stance on Jacob that I do.

I have yet to see anything actually substantial against Dramonic. The only person who actually tried was wind-up with 559, but I don't agree with that because I feel that if Dramonic was scum, he actually would prefer it if people were being anti-town, rather than just scolding them for this behavior while saying he doesn't have a scumread on them.

The fact that Wind-up and Smash are actually trying to use logic at all right now is giving me townreads on them, despite the fact that that means I disagree with most of what they are saying in the first place.

I think that's everything important for now. Once again, sorry and I'll try to stay more up to date in the future.

[KingdomAces]

Is it just me, or did NS scumclaim when he said that ActionDan could still be scum after he flipped because of multiball, and not because he's town? NS, why did you bring up multiball there?

Aside from that, Konowa and Smash do appear to be coming off as town during that exchange, and my opinion hasn't changed about anyone else.

[KingdomAces]

I was hoping NS would elaborate before saying anything else, but I personally don't place too much faith in scumslips. The problem I have with that is he pretty much admitted that he would flip scum. This isn't something that anyone would just say without thinking it through, and if he was actually scum there was a good chance it wouldn't have been posted. I actually think it ends up being null, but the lack of a follow up after it was questioned leans him more towards scum.

While I do agree with Dan's solid townreads, that isn't changing my opinion of him very much. Dan, you also stated some lesser townreads, what are your opinions of these people now, and why? For Reference:

Also Zoneace, Bacade, and JS are all likely town.

I did have a mild townread on Go, and Oversoul's entrance hasn't changed that.

I really don't think that Smashbard is scum right now. He's been one of the most vocal people in the game, and he's made every effort to stand out from the rest of the game. Once we start getting more flips, if he is somehow scum it will be obvious from his interactions with them, but until that happens it would probably be better just to assume he's town.

While I don't really trust Bacde myself, if he is only scum because he's scum with Smash, then I'm not going to follow anyone on to him. I'm going to reread him later, but for now I see no reason to vote for him.

Zoneace, do you have any reads not involving Bacde/Smash?

[KingdomAces]

Your hunch isn't what I called a scumslip. That was the fact that you responded to someone saying that if you flipped scum, then ActionDan was town with by saying that we still could be in multiball. The only way that would be an issue at all is if you flipped scum, so if you knew you were going to flip town there would be no need for you to point out that multiball was a second option.

[KingdomAces]

I was in the middle of constructing a post when the thread got locked, and now I've been prodded...

Anyway, I don't agree with Oversoul's case against ZONEACE. If I'm reading it correctly, the main point is that ZONEACE has been attempting to make the game more about personality clashes than about logic. I'm not going to deny that may have been an effect that his posts had, but the game was heading in that direction without the extra help he gave it. If he was scum and that was his strategy, he would have just left everyone else to implode by themselves. I'm starting to think that that might just be part of his personality. I can see what Oversoul is trying to say though, so he is coming across as more town because of it.

That doesn't mean I don't have a scumread on ZONEACE. The main reason I say this is his determination to get Smashbard to claim. All Smashbard has said is that he's breadcrumbed something, so if he is telling the truth, it will be provable upon request of the majority. That is all that town needs to know. The only people that need to know more are the scum, since they need to know exactly how much of a threat this is. What ZONEACE has done has by far crossed over into rolefishing.

UNVOTE: ActionDan
VOTE: ZONEACE

[KingdomAces]

Okay, I really haven't been able to focus on this game for a while now, so even though I really don't want to, it's starting to get to the point where it might be better for me to replace out.

I don't have enough time to make a post right now, but I'll be on again before deadline. If I still haven't done a thorough reread and be ready to participate by the time day three starts, I'll replace out. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Standby reads list so this post doesn't end up being worthless: My only real scumreads at the moment are ActionDan and ZONEACE, though I may have to reevaluate the latter when I get on again. I have townreads on Oversoul, wind-up, Human Destroyer, and Smashbard. I'll see if they still hold up and give reasons when I get the time.

[KingdomAces]

From what I can see, Smashbard was the only person that Konowa had a townread on, so my best guess is that he must have protected him.

I think that two scum being the two competing wagons is rare, especially since Zepher and ZONEACE have barely mentioned each other so they couldn't have been cross bussing. While I still disagree with ZONEACE pressuring Smashbard the way he did, I don't see him following that up by killing him. I retract my scumread on him, and apologize.

If either of ActionDan or JacobSavage are scum, then the other is town. Most of Zepher's efforts towards them was tying them together and didn't have much to say besides that, so if one of them flipped town, he could easily stop bussing the other one. He wanted to lynch Jacob more than Dan, and didn't switch to Dan even when I started a small wagon on him. Therefore, I'm inclined to think that Jacob is definitely town and Dan is even more likely to be scum.

The relationship between Zepher and NS is worthy of mention however. Zepher says he can't read him, but he does provide reads from time to time which are always different. NS starts with Zepher being town, and then that turns to a scum read on him as soon as NS thinks he could be in danger.

I can't tell which of the two are more likely to be scum, but I highly doubt at this point that NS vs. Dan is town against town.

[KingdomAces]

Then how do you explain the night kill?

I haven't reread him yet, but I remember Destroyer coming across as fairly town in that argument with Go. Is there a reason for why he's being voted now?

[KingdomAces]

Postcount means absolutely nothing, since I feel that even though I definitely have a rampant inactivity problem this game, I try to put as much content into every post I actually make, while other people can make dozens of posts where they actually say absolutely nothing. I'm not saying I'm not part of the problem, but postcount is never a way to judge this.

Anyway, on to the actual game. Yes, I did consider the scum just targeting Konowa. He was just as inactive as I was, and what he did post didn't seem like it could be dangerous or hard to get lynched if the need arose. The scum being afraid of Smashbard seemed much more likely.

And Bacde, do you actually find NS to be scummy right now, or do you really not know why you're voting him?

[KingdomAces]

Okay, I really feel like I should be saying something right now.

Yes, I have been doing other things on the site even though I haven't been posting all that much here. That's not due to time constraints on my part, but I just don't have the motivation needed to do the research needed to be able to make a comprehensive post, and I'm not getting any reads that are strong enough that I wouldn't have to look into them thoroughly before mentioning.

The next time I get a substantial amount of time on the computer, this will be my first priority, and if I ever get to the point where I need to make another post like this, I will replace out.

Really sorry about this.

[KingdomAces]

I need to stop saying I'm going to do things, because I apparently don't respect myself.

About Destroyer, I personally agreed with what he was saying about the attacks on Zepher. He did flip scum, but even knowing that I don't find the arguments made against him convincing. I had a townread on Destoryer before this, and nothing has been said to make me lose it.

Despite Rofl's part in this terrible push, what I remember from reading some of his games before is telling me this still is in line for his town play. Until I look at his scum games again, which at this rate I'm probably not actually going to do, I'm just going to go with him being null for now.

In terms of who was night killed, I still think that Konowa was nowhere near active enough to really be considered a threat. Since he wasn't someone that the scum would have needed to die immediately, the fact that pretty much his main point whenever he did post was calling Dramonic scum would have made a scumteam including Dramonic think twice about killing Konowa. Also,when I read a double ISO of Dram and Zepher I remember thinking Dram was more town for it. I forget why now and will look at it again if it becomes a pressing issue.

Of Dan and NS, I can't say which one is more likely to be scum. I really need to reread, but I just can't right now.

Sorry for being so useless.

[KingdomAces]

I don't think Oversoul looked like he actually was afraid of being investigated.

Also, I just really haven't liked Dan recently. I can't really explain it and it's probably more due to bias, but at the moment I'd rather vote him than NS.

More when I'm capable of focusing.

[KingdomAces]

Okay, why is Destroyer the main wagon now? This whole wagon feels wrong. I literally have no clue why any of you are voting him, and I am not going to hammer unless absolutely necessary. This seems like a distraction to Dan and NS, and he is far less likely to flip scum than either of the other two.

Since it looks like the choices right now are Destroyer and NS:
VOTE: Nobody Special

Now both are at L-1, and the first person to switch votes decides the lynch. I'm not planning on switching my vote unless it's the absolute last minute.

[KingdomAces]

NS is lying. There is a facepalm smiley as of yesterday.

I am tempted to believe his claim for now though. I still would prefer to lynch ActionDan over Destroyer, but I'm not sure that there's enough time for that.
UNVOTE: Nobody Special
VOTE: ActionDan

[KingdomAces]

Dan, how are you surprised by my post at all?

Anyway, I don't know what game Jacob is talking about, but in my second game on the site, Newbie 1279, Thor was a Doctor who thought he was a VT all game. He didn't even remember he was a doctor after the Cop claimed, and the entire town, including him, made sure that if there was a doctor, that they knew that they needed to be protecting him that night. It happens.

Also, if he really was setting up an investigative fakeclaim, then why didn't he claim it? It just doesn't make sense from a scum perspective at all. While I am kind of interested in what Oversoul was trying to tell us, if it isn't urgent enough for him to tell us now, then I think it might be worth it to hold off and give NS a chance to block a kill.

If the only options are still NS and Destroyer, then I'm really going to have to think about it, because I don't think either is a good lynch right now.

[KingdomAces]

Okay, I've been really busy over night and even though we had extra time I never got the opportunity to reread. I might have time tomorrow, so I'll look for Destroyer interactions then.

Before that, I just want to say I'm terrible at this game. That is really my only excuse surrounding my actions late yesterday.

Here's where I would give standby reads to just be able to provide something, but Destroyer's flip is pretty much telling me that my standby reads are probably wrong. I think Oversoul is still leaning town and Dan is still leaning scum, but I'll have more with evidence as soon as I'm able to.

[KingdomAces]

So, I just really don't want to deal with this right now. Whenever I say that the next time I post I'm going to reread, I end up not even checking back in the game.

Yeah, I'm a Mason with Smashbard. I'm going to blame the fact that I don't feel like I need to be as active because of that, and also I'm just having a hard time with commitment in general right now. I really should replace out, but I can't be sure that someone else would be any better at this point.

[KingdomAces]

Okay, while it is true that I requested replacement, for some reason I decided that just posting it in the Mason topic was enough that I didn't have to PM it also, but MattP didn't notice it. Due to recent developments though, it looks like having a player that's been reading the whole time would be better than getting a new one to start from scratch, even if the new one would be better in the long term.

Anyway, in case I didn't already, I'll confirm that I am masons with Smashbard, and I did make a crumb of this myself if it is needed.

I see no need to doubt ZONEACE right now. If Peta is town, then we just lynch ZONEACE, and if they're both scum then ZONE will run out of places to hide before long.

My reads so far have been terrible, so I'm probably just going to be voting from here on out instead of actually analyzing, but of the four non-clears, PV seems like the most likely scum to me.

I know this sounds stupid and pointless, but there's still one role possibility that needs to be mentioned at this point: Mafia Doctor. MrZepher seemed convinced for some reason that there would be a vig in the setup, and having a Mafia Doctor on his team would explain that. It is a role that also fits with the day-vig and gunsmith, since the gunsmith would get a false positive on the day-vig and a false negative on the doctor, and therefore be less powerful than it seems aside of masons and a bodyguard. Basically what I'm saying is that while you should still trust positives, you shouldn't put the game on the line for a negative result.

Anyway, I'll keep following along, and if I get a chance I'll look over some more things, but I'm not going to promise anything other than being able to vote on time. Not voting until we're ready to end the day.

[KingdomAces]

I don't have the same reaction to Rofl as Smash does, and right now I think that PV is the best choice for a lynch. For me, after that would be Jacob, rofl, then Oversoul.

I just don't see Destroyer vs. Go being scum vs. scum, and while I can't say that I am good at this kind of thing, I have read some of Rofl's games in the past and this seems like town him. On the other hand, Disney Villains was the only scum game of his I've read, and that game is memorable for completely different reasons, so I'd probably have to read more in order to get a real read there. I'm lazy though, so I'll wait until it is necessary before doing that.

VOTE: PeregrineV

[KingdomAces]

To me, the coloring of that reads list looks more like an argument for Jacob town. When scum post lists like that, I'd think they'd try to hide their buddies a bit more than that. The vote for Destroyer after calling him town isn't really an issue, because the post count nearly doubled between them.

I remember thinking more about Jacob town before because Zepher was really pushing the Jacob/Dan connection, then ignoring the Dan wagon in favor of Jacob's. While this was far more meaningful when I was assuming Dan was scum, I still think this makes him likelier to be town.

PEdit: Okay, apparently Go made a list that has pretty much the same argument going for it. I'm actually going to have to reread now, won't I...

[KingdomAces]

The first major clash of the game was between Go and Destroyer over Mr. Zepher. It started at this post and continued for quite some time afterwards. I still think that Go comes out as town, though I thought Destroyer was town because of it at the time as well. I need to fully reread it again, but I don't really have time now. It was before you replaced in, so you should definitely look at it.

I don't think Rofl's silence is indicative of anything. His input right now would be really helpful though, since he was one of my stronger townreads coming into this phase.

PV has definitely improved since the beginning of the day though, so unvoting for now. I'll revote when I do those ISO's that I really need to be doing before the end of the day phase.

UNVOTE: PeregrineV

[KingdomAces]

Haven't done the ISO'ing yet, just checking in to say that if anyone has any specific questions for me or things to look at, then I'll see them and that would probably be easier for me than just rereading since I'm kind of lazy.

Also, this is another call to Jacob to explain what he meant by 1292, and for Rofl to just say something if he's reading.

Oversoul, I'm fairly sure that Mafia Doctor is the role that gives a false negative to gunsmiths, with Godfathers still giving positives.

[KingdomAces]

I think two more mafia is actually kind of likely at this point, because we seem far too strong right now for the mafia roles which have flipped.

The reasons why I think there would likely be a doctor is at the moment, the only difference between a cop and gunsmith would be wind-up, and in a game of this size which also includes Masons seems really powerful. The other reason is that MrZepher seemed convinced that there was a vig in the setup for no apparent reason. His team having a doctor would be a definite reason for that. The other person pushing the idea of a vig D1 was Go, which is definitely hurting my read on him, since this was his first game with that account, so I can't see if that's normal for him.

[KingdomAces]

Out of curiosity what are the odds that there's both a vig and a PGO in this game?
Thinking about Wind-up's claim made me start hypothesizing. It might be too early for that so stop me if I'm getting ahead of myself here.

I'm starting to hope you get vig'd instead of me.

I looked at this a while ago, and I may have played up how much he did this since then. It is there, but on second look it might not be as important as I thought it was.

[KingdomAces]

I've already said that I don't have the energy to entirely devote myself to this game. If you would prefer it if I were to replace out and force someone else to read 71 pages ans still manage to contribute more than I can, then just say so.

My stance right now just reading is that both of you two are looking like town. I am getting more suspicious of Oversoul, but for some reason I'm reading him as leaning town as well. I'm continually feeling worse about Jacob, so that's what I'm looking at right this moment, though I could go for someone else if a convincing argument is made for them. If you already made one and I forgot, just remind me and I'll find it myself.

[KingdomAces]

1. I get distracted far too easily, and as such am not going to be playing another game for quite a while after this finishes.

I will get to the rest later, but I'm pressed for time to put things into words right now. In general, quite a bit of that strengthens my town read of Rofl more than makes me think he's scum.

[KingdomAces]

Sorry, but I really don't know what to think right now. I don't think it's PV or Oversoul. All I really have right now is gut, and for some reason I think of the four it's most likely to be Jacob. I really don't have any reasoning though, so I'll hammer whoever by deadline.

[KingdomAces]

I think I'm officially confirmed town now, so I really need to somehow make sure that it was a mistake that the scum left me alive until now.

First, I really want Bacde to claim. I didn't want to say this yesterday while there was still even a minor chance he could be night-killed, but he was the person who looked most like scum to me yesterday. I still think Rofl and Oversoul are likely town, so for me it's between Jacob and Bacde.

[KingdomAces]

13 posts in a row? Really?

As I believe Smashbard mentioned, Masons are usually seen as a substitute for an investigation role, yet in this game there is both masons AND a gunsmith. This can get kind of ridiculous with the amount of confirmed town that creates, and as such gives scum no chance whatsoever. There's also the fact that the only role that would come up negative that's flipped so far was the Day-Vig, and since that is incredibly easily confirmable unless he's gunsmithed on N1 and the Gunsmith decides to claim D2, which would be incredibly stupid even if it was a guaranteed guilty, in a game of this size, it just seems too strong.

I don't have time now, but I will do some meta research on rofl before the day ends. From what I know now though, this is exactly how he acts as town. Yes, he led two lynches on scum without doing all that much to prove why he thought he was right. No, I don't think this is good play. That is what he does though, and right now I really think he's probably town.

I got a massive townread on Go from Day 1, and while Oversoul hasn't made me quite as sure, he still seems town to me. The outside information thing helps with that, especially because I have heard of his history on that matter. This could be a gambit as well, but it just doesn't seem right.

I know that I've had a scumread on you since Day 1. Nothing you've done has changed that. If you want to say, "but Smashbard could tell I was town," then how about I quote the last thing he said in the mason topic.

Son of a bitch I think Bacde is the Godfather.

This was about five days before the night started, and he didn't comment at all during the night.

I know that I let emotions clog my judgement, and I'm going to try to counter that. I will say that at the moment, I will not join either a Rofl or an Oversoul wagon. If there's two scum left, it's Bacde/JS. If there's only one, then we've got two lynches. I will reread before putting my vote behind it.

Until then, if you want to say something, say it all in one post. If I'm just being angry at you because I don't like your playstyle rather than because you're actually scum, that's one way to start to correcting things.

[KingdomAces]

Bacde, yes I was actually angry at you. Spam posting is probably my biggest pet peeve in mafia, especially due to how often postcounts are stressed as a factor on activity. Spam posting completely ruins that statistic, yet no one actually pays attention to that part. I know I really should just deal with it, and I'm trying, but can't you really say that 13 posts in 48 minutes with no one else posting between them isn't excessive?

No, I haven't played with a Godfather before, and I never thought you were one. I thought that there was a good chance a Mafia Doctor existed in the setup because there were a few times that Zepher sounded like he knew that there was a vig in the setup, which is what the doctor would imply, even though in this case it's only use would be to counter the gunsmith.

Aside from my playstyle gripes, the only specific reason why I thought you were scum was because of your opening post.

Hey guys, so my role PM says that I am

Mafia

, and I intend on winning this game, so if you could point me to the nearest ML wagon I'd love to hop on and get this game finished

I still think that there is absolutely no town motivation for saying this, even as a joke. As scum, it can get people to think you're town because "There's no way scum would actually say that." The fact that you yourself eventually used that argument when no one else did made it worse for me. I didn't press it at the time because Smash told me that was normal for you, but I never stopped thinking about it.

Also if it wasn't a point of contention, if LyLo was me, Bacde and rofl, I would have lynched rofl due to the obvious setup. Now that it's been mentioned though, this is useless.

I think bodyguards are only negative for gunsmiths if they are the type that kill whoever attacks their target, which Konowa wasn't.

There are a LOT of town PR's in this game, so I wouldn't know about balance, but we do have a 50% successful lynch rate so far, so five full members is probably out of the question. The only other possibility would be traitor, which if there was one it would be the person who stated they were Mafia on the first page of the game.

For now though, I will back off on Bacde. I'll agree that a Jacob lynch would be optimal, but I'd want to wait until I actually had time to reread, and that is not now.

[KingdomAces]

Bacde, yes I was actually angry at you. Spam posting is probably my biggest pet peeve in mafia, especially due to how often postcounts are stressed as a factor on activity. Spam posting completely ruins that statistic, yet no one actually pays attention to that part. I know I really should just deal with it, and I'm trying, but can't you really say that 13 posts in 48 minutes with no one else posting between them isn't excessive?

No, I haven't played with a Godfather before, and I never thought you were one. I thought that there was a good chance a Mafia Doctor existed in the setup because there were a few times that Zepher sounded like he knew that there was a vig in the setup, which is what the doctor would imply, even though in this case it's only use would be to counter the gunsmith.

Aside from my playstyle gripes, the only specific reason why I thought you were scum was because of your opening post.

Hey guys, so my role PM says that I am

Mafia

, and I intend on winning this game, so if you could point me to the nearest ML wagon I'd love to hop on and get this game finished

I still think that there is absolutely no town motivation for saying this, even as a joke. As scum, it can get people to think you're town because "There's no way scum would actually say that." The fact that you yourself eventually used that argument when no one else did made it worse for me. I didn't press it at the time because Smash told me that was normal for you, but I never stopped thinking about it.

Also if it wasn't a point of contention, if LyLo was me, Bacde and rofl, I would have lynched rofl due to the obvious setup. Now that it's been mentioned though, this is useless.

I think bodyguards are only negative for gunsmiths if they are the type that kill whoever attacks their target, which Konowa wasn't.

There are a LOT of town PR's in this game, so I wouldn't know about balance, but we do have a 50% successful lynch rate so far, so five full members is probably out of the question. The only other possibility would be traitor, which if there was one it would be the person who stated they were Mafia on the first page of the game.

For now though, I will back off on Bacde. I'll agree that a Jacob lynch would be optimal, but I'd want to wait until I actually had time to reread, and that is not now.

[KingdomAces]

In Mish Mash. I haven't really been paying attention, because I'm a terrible person who just wants to die in this game. Because of that, I'm thinking I might just hammer, because to me it just seems like he's the most likely scum here. I know I really should be paying more attention, but Mish Mash is more fun...

I'm not swayed at all by the premature bah post. There is obviously only two votes on him, and the AtE is just useless here as either alignment.

If we lose, I'll take full responsibly here. I apologize to everyone who cared more about this game than I did, which was probably everyone. I should have just replaced out the first time I mentioned it, but at this point it's far too late.

[KingdomAces]

If we win, it would not be because of me at all. I kind of want to wait to make sure other people are ready for a hammer, but aren't we the only two not currently voting him other than himself?

I hate thinking.

[KingdomAces]

The only way that there's two mafia that aren't Jacob at this point is if the team is Rofl/Oversoul. I'm going to double ISO them to make sure, but otherwise the only reason not to is if the person who inevitably gets killed would want to say more things, and I think the recent activity is proof that that's not the case.

ISO'ing now.

[KingdomAces]

I don't want credit, and I'll be deciding for myself.

If you're that sure of it, then why are you not hammering though?

[KingdomAces]

Spoiler: The only things worthy of note from my search.

Not going to bother quoting, but Rofl has Go as Town on a reads list, and Oversoul has Rofl as his weakest townread, says he's going to explain it, then never does. Aside from that, they never mention the other.

-snip-
An investigation into Oversoul couldn't hurt.

That would be a complete waste of any form of investigation I can tell you that right now. you're just trying to spread as much doubt as you can now

Smashbard calls out Oversoul for being afraid of an investigation.

No. I'm not afraid of being investigated because they will all return a normal result.

Cop me, track me, gun smith me, role cop me, hell even shoot me. They all will come back of a regular ole townie.

but somebody really should shoot oversoul for this outsized reaction to the idea of being investigated

Long period of ignoring the other.

why go/oversoul is town:

go vs human destroyer is a boring big-dick ego fight but HD looks much better off it than go

After this, I think my townread on Oversoul has been slightly reinforced, where Rofl is going back closer to null. In my scum experience, I find that blatently ignoring your partner is far easier than anything else, but that wasn't in a large, so I really think that's null here, possibly even siding with more likely that they're not partners. Rofl's extremely brief opinion that Oversoul was scum also points towards not partners from my point of view, since if they were that would be something that would more closely kept track of.

I think I'm ready to hammer as soon as Bacde explains why he's so eager for this lynch yet not hammering himself, unless anyone else has final comments to make.

[KingdomAces]

This is where I point out I haven't been on a lynch all game, and that's not because of my inactivity. Like 90% of lynches that I'm in a game with, I'm off the wagon for one reason or another. I just don't like killing people, I guess. That could also be why games with me in them always end up stalling.

I'll give it another few hours, and if no one else has something to say, I'll hammer then. I want to make sure that we're not rushing this, but I don't want to make it drag on either.

[KingdomAces]

We should probably save that talk for post-game, but in short, I still don't think it's fair to say that about those who are dead now.

I don't have any questions, I'm just waiting to make sure no one has any final thoughts they need to say about this, and to attempt to put some of my insecurities to rest.

[KingdomAces]

VOTE: JacobSavage

I think that's been long enough.

[KingdomAces]

Any objections to me just releasing the Dead/Mason QT's?

All I need to say myself, is yeah, I played horribly the entire time.