NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Nero Cain]

Don't want to talk about your buddy Thor?

[Nachomamma8]

if thor-me-majiffy-mollie was a scumteam, we probably would've policy lynched you for laughs by now.

[Bacde]

If you can get the majority of the playerlist to lynch me out of spite, maybe. Otherwise you might need something real to kill me.

This is scum

town doesn't say "You can't PROVE that I'm scum, so you can't lynch me! nyah nyah nyah!"

this isn't town

this is scum

nacho is better at this game than this and he knows it, and we knows it. Lynch this dude

[Bacde]

1. He's not informed. The information he provided was useless.
2. You can't just say that this isn't my town play when you don't really know what the difference between my town play and scum play is.

town doesn't discredit people like this

nacho, why is it such a ridiculous claim for me to be able to tell the difference between your town play and your scum play?

[Baby Spice]

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

No

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

^^^ THIS IS WHAT YOU LEFT ME ALONE WITH YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF

sheeping nero let's see what this does

VOTE: nacho

Eddie and Slandaar and Oversoul seriously wtf?

I'm trying to move this game in a direction and you three are being deliberately anti-town by not even responding to my strong assertion I made just 4 posts ago

guys bc is right. this is scum nacho we are seeing

VOTE: nacho

somehow i'm not even a little bit ashamed

did you just burnsauce me?

[Bulbazak]

Nacho, what do you think of Red Ryu?

[Nero Cain]

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

No

and who else would we lynch?

[Bulbazak]

This is scum

town doesn't say "You can't PROVE that I'm scum, so you can't lynch me! nyah nyah nyah!"

this isn't town

this is scum

nacho is better at this game than this and he knows it, and we knows it. Lynch this dude

We need more than Burden of Proficiency and Argument from Repetition.

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

No

and who else would we lynch?

Red Ryu is looking nice this time of year...

[Nachomamma8]

nacho, why is it such a ridiculous claim for me to be able to tell the difference between your town play and your scum play?

nacho is scum

Nacho, what do you think of Red Ryu?

He keeps claiming that Oversoul's information *isn't* useless, and Mafia wouldn't know these things on D1 and it would be so incredibly difficult to find out if there were at least two killers by D2, and that makes me scum, despite Oversoul outing that his information was fake later. I have no idea where he's coming from at the moment, but I'm going to do a deeper read in a second so I'll be able to tell you after.

[Nero Cain]

so nacho is going to be the lynch d1

No

and who else would we lynch?

Red Ryu is looking nice this time of year...

Really? I heard the weather was terrible and there's high crime. I'd ask my travel agent but I don't give a shit.

Please explain you're town read on Nacho.

[Baby Spice]

Red or Ceph are the first two that come to mind.

This isn't looking like town you Nero, but the town you I have seen recently is probably not typical (and ongoing), so you maybe.

AA maybe because she usually makes a better effort at catching up when she falls behind like this, but that's a real maybe at this stage.

Bacde and Oversoul as well.
Not liking Oversoul's gambits or Tomato's push on Nacho based off of it.
An element of "I do this as town, I did it, ergo I'm town"

[Baby Spice]

Lesser are DLG and Om, though Om is drifting off of my scum list at the monent.

[Cephrir]

Slandaar is beginning to get on my nerves.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

spice girl you are losing town points in my read on you. bc is town town town town, I have never had another player think exactly the same thing that I did at the time in the thread

this

many times except for 1 or 2 players. his push on nacho isn't based off of gambit it is based off of meta and I know what he is talking about.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

Slandaar is beginning to get on my nerves.

slaandar has actually made me laugh in this game I really can't tell if I should be worried or not. majiffy isn't so I am going to try not to.

[Om the Destroyer]

Right now I'm honestly not as sure on Nacho-scum as I was yesterday. I don't know what changed my mind but whatever it is it's causing my gut to go weird.

~Pertayter

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

also here is the argument for arc possibly being town; she tried to tone it down between nero and I and that is a very town thing to do. scum love town on town tard fights unless they like both parties and are distinctly uncomfortable with it. I really don't get the impression likes me all that much so

[Thor665]

its likely thor is town considering that he would be willing to PL me and isn't finding me obvtown for some reason

I do that because I'm afflicted with a little thing called 'sanity'.

I also have a strong townread on the Disney Hydra slot so I don't know how you are coming up with them being likely to flip scum. I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that they are going to flip anytime soon.

Well, since I actually said neither of those things...awesome for you?

Why so defensive of them? Clearly you have some town tells off them too then, right?
Share those pl0x!

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Why did I sound like I was lying to you?

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

Duh. I agree.
The point is - whys hould one nebulous reason that is stronger need to be able to justify itself more than a different nebulous reason.
If I have three null reads and decide to lynch one of them, and my answer is 'because' when I choose one...why is that so inherently scummy?
Yeah, maybe it's lazy. But what is the pro-scum motivation there?

I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: Smurfy town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning.

1. No one was trying to convince you to sheep either opinion at that stage.
2. You are self-expressed as bad at scumhunting, but have attacked two players on how they are scumhunting.

Discuss?

[Nachomamma8]

Mac seems town so far. There's not a whole lot pointing either way, but I like his interactions with fuzzy so far; fuzzy is a player that's pretty hard to nail down, and Mac has been aggressively attacking him, trying to get something out of it. I also thought the point made in #746 was pretty good.

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

Cephrir's sort of gotten railroaded into defending me a couple of times, but has maintained sufficient paranoia of me the entire game. I like that because it weakens the wagon and weakens the claim on the wagon, but doesn't mean that he actually gains any cred for defending me. His attack on Thor for being overaggressive seemed a little strange, but it was a fair attack considering his mindset, and his progression from Thor to Oversoul was pretty genuine. His mid-back off from B&B seemed fairly town motivated; he was comfortable in arguing with them, but held back a little when the argument pretty much became a semantics fight. His response to B&B accusing him of having unexplained townreads was the reads list in #797, which is a fitting response to the interaction and seemed more like a "screw you" townie response than scum under pressure in the least bit, considering he wasn't under a lot of pressure and could've easily dismissed B&B or bought time by telling them to explain townreads first. Overall, fairly town.

DLG asking me if I still had an early townread on Arc before voting her was sort of strange. It was an early vote and he didn't really have any other suspects, so seeking my approval before making a vote, whether he has me as a townread or not, seems like excessive caution. The attack on ArcAngel lacked a lot as well; I don't mind attacks on someone for not scumhunting, but attacking her for spending no time to seek reasons behind why massclaim is a bad idea, or attacking her because she's posting nothing more than a compliment to the mod... that seems pretty opportunistic. His townreads disappearing on B&B and I seem like they are going away for trivial reasons, but worse is the Bulbazak scumread which comes out of nowhere that he never explains. CTD has a really good point about at the bottom of #957.

Nero Cain is trolling most of the time. Then he latched onto the third party thing, then he made fun of mollie, then he tried to bring as much attention to the situation as possible. It doesn't really seem like a particular strong scum strategy, but I sort of liked that he made an attempt to read the people he was pushing policy lynches on and is pushing a real life scumread instead of the people he generally finds scummy anyways. Town.

I seem to be pretty good at reading Bacde most days. He's probably town again.

[Cephrir]

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Why did I sound like I was lying to you?

It had nothing to do with how you said anything, I just didn't believe you could possibly want to lynch over something so silly.

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

Duh. I agree.
The point is - whys hould one nebulous reason that is stronger need to be able to justify itself more than a different nebulous reason.
If I have three null reads and decide to lynch one of them, and my answer is 'because' when I choose one...why is that so inherently scummy?
Yeah, maybe it's lazy. But what is the pro-scum motivation there?

Giving reasons makes your opinion more concrete. If you say "I suspect X because gut" it's a lot easier to change your mind later than if you say "I suspect X because of these scummy things he did".

I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: Smurfy town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning.

1. No one was trying to convince you to sheep either opinion at that stage.
2. You are self-expressed as bad at scumhunting, but have attacked two players on how they are scumhunting.

Discuss?

1. Yeah, I was just rambling about my playstyle. And it's relevant to the situation at hand now.
2. Just because I'm bad at scumhunting doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying. Assuming you're referring to AA9 and B&B, there's still a difference- even if I often bark up the wrong trees, AA9 isn't barking up any trees and B&B are giving themselves room to switch trees at any moment (and also aren't giving the town any insight to their thought process, which I believe town should want to do if they want to get their suspects lynched rather than just look town, and so their opinion lives on if they die).

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

its likely thor is town considering that he would be willing to PL me and isn't finding me obvtown for some reason

I do that because I'm afflicted with a little thing called 'sanity'.

I also have a strong townread on the Disney Hydra slot so I don't know how you are coming up with them being likely to flip scum. I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that they are going to flip anytime soon.

Well, since I actually said neither of those things...awesome for you?

Why so defensive of them? Clearly you have some town tells off them too then, right?
Share those pl0x!

Because hyperaggressiveness is often percieved as townie, whereas I think town tend to say what they honestly believe, and I didn't think you honestly believed anything that had happened at that point was lynchworthy.

Why did I sound like I was lying to you?

No, they're based on reasons that don't exist?

Duh. I agree.
The point is - whys hould one nebulous reason that is stronger need to be able to justify itself more than a different nebulous reason.

If I have three null reads and decide to lynch one of them, and my answer is 'because' when I choose one...why is that so inherently scummy?
Yeah, maybe it's lazy. But what is the pro-scum motivation there?

I also don't know that I really have a scumhunting style (see: Smurfy town player, usually too busy getting lynched to scumhunt), but my *preference* is to scumhunt by presenting cases, and I like it when others make cases rather than try to persuade me with ambiguous meta cases and "look at his posts" reasoning.

1. No one was trying to convince you to sheep either opinion at that stage.
2. You are self-expressed as bad at scumhunting, but have attacked two players on how they are scumhunting.

Discuss?

why are you asking a question that you already know the answer to?

[Cephrir]

He's explained why he's pursuing this line of questioning even though the questions occasionally seem to have obvious right answers. And I actually think it's pretty town of him.

[Thor665]

Page 23

I like B&B's catch on the kitten. Still want to lynch that thing.

Page 24

@Nacho

- how clever do you think Oversoul is exactly? Because it sounds like you caught him in a bad claim that would, by definition, require a large amount of cleverness to pull off. Functionally I feel like you're calling him clever and dumb scum both at the same time and applying both tells to him - thoughts?

Page 25

I hope Mollie explains the 3rd party thing better than 'because that's how you sound'
Seriously.

Page 26

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4938719
Kind of feels that doesn't jive with later Cephrir answers. Urge to kill it rising...oh, snap, i said kill it, i am scumz!

Page 27

Bulbazak bleeds town.
SLaandar can be scummy now.


I'm done with this for tonight.
I still have about...20 pages? Ugh. Sunday may see a lot of that sawed down - or I'll just start skipping it out of boredom and figure I missed nothing of import.

[Cephrir]

Also, I know that not giving reasons is sort of 'in' lately, but I don't care. It's stupid and allows scum to slide by, and I'm going to keep being suspicious of those who do it wrong (for doing it right, see Bacde).