NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #525 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 6:46 am

Oh Mollie, Mollie.

I have not played against a scum-Fuzzy, but so far played against a town-Fuzzy. He's showing town-Fuzzy similarities.
I can't really say where the meta part is coming from, but I'm indirectly pointing to where. Just think outside the line.

You still haven't answered why you thought I was scum and then I apparently changed from that read to a somewhat town read. >.>

____

Me missing the joke is probably attributable to tone deafness on my part. I'm not part of the clique, so the inside jokes may go over my head.

I'm still curious about how you can needle at the pirate mollie head of BeautyAndTheBeast for ignoring your question, and at the same time declare you intend to leave BeautyAndTheBeast alone in lieu of better targets.

I pretty much agree with you on BeautyAndTheBeast being likely Town, and agree with your assessment of ArcAngel9. Hey, since I'm Town, and we agree, you must be Town, too. Just ask Beast.

Do you have enough experience playing with ArcAngel9 to say whether this is unusual play for her? Because, I sense she's more part of the group of players familiar to each other. I'd like to know if you think she's just coming across as scummy as a natural part of her playstyle/personality.

Likely. I understand that - it's why I pointed it out. If it helps I'm not really part of that because that's Mara/Jiffy's side rather then our inside joke.

I'm allowed to poke at the Mollie part of the hydra. She's the (easiest) for me to read over 'Jiffy and I'm trying to make sure she's not going to skate by if she's actually scum. Yes, she's ignoring my question and I'm going to keep poking her 'til an answer appears.
Why is looking for scum reads and going after them while gently poking at another player scummy? It's scum hunting and it's actually what I do in terms of that. Sometimes - I will go after one person non-stop, but there has to be a huge gut ping ++ a really scummy action on their part to make me go after one person.

I have actually only played two games with her and both she was town in. The first was her first scum on the actual site and I read her as scummy and she turned out to be a PR. The second game she used toooo much ATE/Agression + replaced out and I hammered her and lost the game because she looked superrrr scummy in play. I have modded another town game of her's and she looked really scummy there. So I'm starting to see a pattern when I read her as scum - she's likely town, but I want to see more of her play until I come to a straight up conclusion. I want content out of her I know she can produce and for her to flesh out her thoughts.

Nero Cain · Post Post #526 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 6:48 am

hello kitty, what do you think about the mollie + OS vs. Nero and Despo bickering on the last page?

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #527 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 6:55 am

I haven't had time to scope read it. I have to go back to studying for my final. I'll give my thoughts possibly when I get home tonight.

Oversoul · Post Post #528 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 6:56 am

I'm not scum Nero and you continue to show your inability to read me

AngryPidgeon · Post Post #529 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 6:56 am

Tenth Votecount

:

(

AKA, the "Whew, only one change on this one" votecount

)

Oversoul - 4 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie, Bulbazak, Nero Cain)

BeautyAndTheBeast - 3 (Om the Destroyer, Cephrir, EddieFenix)

Cephrir - 2 (BeautyAndTheBeast, fuzzybutternut)
Red Ryu - 1 (Oversoul)
Nachomamma8 - 1 (Red Ryu)
EddieFenix - 1 (Bacde)
ArcAngel9 - 1 (DLG)

Not Voting - 11 (Mac, Thor665, Syryana, Desperado, Baby Spice, Slandaar, Seanald, ActionDan, Rondar, Amethyst Kitty, ArcAngel9)

With

24

players alive, it's

13

to lynch.

Deadline is on Monday, May 27th, @ 11:30 AM PST, which is in (expired on 2013-05-27 11:31:59).

mastin2, the moderator, is recovering from a broken-laptop-induced V/LA.

Spoiler: changes from last votecount

Spoiler: Player Vote History

Spoiler: Voting History

Nero Cain · Post Post #530 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:03 am

In post 529, Oversoul wrote:I'm not scum Nero and you continue to show your inability to read me

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #531 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:06 am

In post 395, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 378, Om the Destroyer wrote: Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?
1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only
ever
about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

1) ...no, it still applies. If your reads are even mostly based on who agrees with you or not, they still are horrible. It's like saying 1 or 2 good reads makes up for 10 bad reads, it makes no sense.
2) Provably incorrect:

In post 322, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:
In post 320, Cephrir wrote:I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s.
As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes.
Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

So yes, you saying your list was largely based on whether or not people agreed with you was in response to Cephrir saying the same. Only the second half of said post talked about Slandaar and AA9 specifically.

~

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #532 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:08 am

In post 407, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 369, Om the Destroyer wrote:
In post 347, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 250, Om the Destroyer wrote:on page 4

In post 73, Red Ryu wrote:Thor is likely scum, or stupid aggro town.
VOTE: Red Ryu

"Oh hey this is either scummy or playstyle IDFK so I'm going to vote Thor anyway!"

Opportunistic as fuck right there

-
It's like you didn't read anything in my interaction with Thor.

Bad post.
Oh trust me you're still a good vote, even after the Thor interaction.
You basically said Thor is being aggressive and this somehow makes him aggressive scum rather than aggressive town arbitrarily.

~

This is how I know you didn't read it.

I never called aggressive scum.

I know--it's called "reading in between the lines". Ever heard of it?
You said Thor was scum or aggressive town. Ergo, he's being aggressive. Ergo, you're calling him aggressive scum.
The fact that you need to resort to semantics as a form of deflection is bad.

~

Oversoul · Post Post #533 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:09 am

In post 531, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 529, Oversoul wrote:I'm not scum Nero and you continue to show your inability to read me
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

Fair enough but it is annoying and ruins my enjoyment when I have a player who always calls me scum regardless of whether or not I am scum and I just wanted to tell you that :/

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #534 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:10 am

In post 423, Red Ryu wrote:
In post 355, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 354, Red Ryu wrote:I'm catching up via phone but your saying informed townie can't exist? I've seen this role and been it, why can't he be one. You seem dead certain he can't without asking a single question about his role.
Informed townie where the piece of information given is "there are at least two killing roles" doesn't exist because it's completely fucking useless information. I seriously doubt that it would be involved in any information he was given, but am not sure.

In post 354, Red Ryu wrote:If he is scummy for other reasons tell me why?
Later.
It can't exist because the info is useless?

Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.

Vote:Nachomamma8

Let me know if who your mates are sometimee down the road.

Weakest reason for a vote this entire game.
It even beats Thor's Oversoul vote.
We're lynching this after B&B.

~

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #535 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:13 am

In post 426, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 420, Cephrir wrote:Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.
This is a normal game?!?

In post 428, Amethyst Kitty wrote:-snip-

So by my count, in this post, you've declared 3 scumreads, one of which is "scummy as hell", another of which deserves an FoS. Where's your vote?

In post 437, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 367, Om the Destroyer wrote:
In post 344, Bulbazak wrote:
In post 313, Om the Destroyer wrote: Majiffy's "oh you must not think highly of him then!" is a somewhat-subtle "yes thor is awesome go fuck yourself"

Om's recent posts are hilarious, because they either mean that they are not familiar with Majiffy's meta at all, or that they are scum trying to push for an early mislynch on a player that tends to look anti-town. The buddying accusation is my favorite, as Majiffy doesn't buddy up to anyone, except for Majiffy. I suggest watching this wagon closely, as I can see scum pushing it hard.
So are you calling me scum or backhandedly discrediting me?
Leaning scum, because I don't think you're that stupid.

Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely stupid and scummy.
Mmm hmm.

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #536 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:13 am

Om the Destroyer · Post Post #537 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:17 am

In post 476, Om the Destroyer wrote:Wow HD thanks for telling me I'm actually in this now
Haven't read anything because yeah, so idk if I even wanna read or if I should just go annoy HD about what has even happened.
I guess I might read a bit. Also I haven't spoken to HD yet

~Pertayter

Check your Skype.

~

Slandaar · Post Post #538 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:18 am

Who posted 526?

Desperado · Post Post #539 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:27 am

Ryu's semantic gymnastics in 423are also really bad. Relevant =/= useful. Also why defend him and then include "if he is telling the truth"? Why the fuck would he lie about that?

And the addendum sentence is just clunky, wooden, and over the top.

I still haven't caught up completely but I'll be sure to pay particular attention to Ryu as I do.

Bulbazak · Post Post #540 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:29 am

In post 493, DLG wrote:Alright, so, the Oversoul wagon is reasonable, and I have no qualms with 3 of the 4 voters. Bulbazak is the odd man out, due to Slandaar's Post 479. There is strange dissonance in those two posts from Bulbazak.

Probably because I know Eddie IRL, and I know where he was coming from with his B&B vote. He is used to playing a specific type of site meta where "leading the town" is considered scummy. With only 1 newbie game, he's not used to the play from more experienced players which quickly refute such a stupid belief. He is also not familiar with anyone's particular meta, and therefore doesn't know that Majiffy always comes across as anti-town and is a very volatile player. I was simply giving him a friendly warning as a friend, because I knew he had no idea what he was getting himself into. If you want meta for this, I can give you links to 2 off-site games, and HD and Fuzzy can attest to the way that we interact with each other (Newbie 1349 if you don't want to ask).

In post 493, DLG wrote: Hey, also, Bulbazak demonstrates absolutely no conviction in the Oversoul wagon, he's just content to sit there and hide in the crowd. I don't detect any sense that he believes he's actually voting scum.

Oversoul was one of my 2 scum reads from d0. He had a knee-jerk reaction after being random voted, and it looked like scum who was caught for the wrong reasons. He spent the rest of the pre-game backpedaling. Then when the game began and CTD suggested a mass claim, he claimed innocent townie in response, and then later contradicted himself. His claim of 2 killing roles/factions is not enough to believe in him being an informed townie, for as scum he would know whether there was 1 scum faction or 2, and he could have easily used that information
to try to secure himself a title of "confirmed town", all while trying to defuse the mass claim. He hasn't said much all day, and besides AA9, no one has questioned the validity of the wagon, so why would I say anything more besides I think he is scum?

Also, explain how you go from this:

In post 492, DLG wrote: I really don't think Nachomamma8 is very likely scum at this juncture. Seems to me he's demonstrating a desire to make the game more difficult for scum through advocating the mass claim (my personal opinion is that early mass claims are functionally better for Town given that site meta so heavily discourages it, and scum get to hide behind "OMG SAVE THE PR'S", and scum aren't prepared for it. Forcing people to lock into a claim early takes away much of the ability of scum to craft a claim later when more is on the line. Well, plus, I derped a LYLO because of a fake claim that I believed and wouldn't have been possible to foresee that it would be beneficial if forced out early.). And, while Nachomamma8 hasn't really stressed this point, there was something significantly scummy about Oversoul's claim. That was the fact that he said he was planning to claim, but didn't when he made his first post. Then, after CrashtextDummie brought up the mass-claim, Oversoul took the easy "no way, man!" route, but then offererd his own claim up and said CrashTextDummie's idea had nothing to do with him claiming. So, Nachomamma8 pushing the Oversoul wagon seems to come from a Town motivated mind set, to me.

to this:

In post 493, DLG wrote:
@Nachomamma8

Walk me through why you think Oversoul would throw out such a silly and useless claim as scum. I mean, I get the fact that the claim doesn't amount to anything worthwhile. Still, I can't quite imagine someone with a scum role PM reacting to the mass claim proposal by going, "No massclaim guys, but I'm gonna make a worthless fake claim". Seems like the scum response would be much more likely to just take the "pro-Town" line of "mass claim is baaaaaad, we've got to protect our PR's at all costs, no way I'm claiming anything!".

It seemed like a complete 180 to me. You start with saying Nacho is not scum, because of the Oversoul push, and that you understand his reasoning. Then 1 post later, you are questioning Nacho about the Oversoul push and his reasoning. It does not compute and looks like a contradiction to me.

Slandaar · Post Post #541 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:33 am

In post 230, CrashTextDummie wrote:
In post 214, Oversoul wrote:I'm not entirely sure how I feel about CTD's suggestion anyway...

He tried to do this in the Team Mafia game which caused Glork to suggest it in OGML's New York game in which scum ultimately won... I don't remember a scenario where mass claim Day 1 actually lead to anything fruitful other than KKB's OP town setup game.

I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.
I was not aware that Glork took the suggestion to another game and that they actually went through with it. Having just skimmed that game, I reject your implication that D1 massclaim lead to a scum win. They actually managed 3/4 scumlynches on the first 4 days as a result of it and with the exception of one scum who managed a somewhat creative fake-claim, all the anti-town roles were uncomfortable as fuck and uniformly claimed VT. The mod acknowledged in post-game that the scum was handicapped by the massclaim. It's actually a great example in favor of D1 massclaim.

For those not in the loop, here are some of the benefits of D1 massclaim:
1. The most immediate benefit is obviously a good chance to catch scum outright via counterclaim or set-up analysis.
2. Scum absolutely, positively hate it. They are forced into long-term commitments before they have a chance to get a grasp of the game.
3. It rules out any kind of mid-to-late game claiming shenanigans, which severely hampers the scums strategic options.
4. It allows for better synergy between power roles, which is especially beneficial in a complicated set-up, which Oversoul is suggesting is the case here.
5. It allows for a much better informed D1 lynch as is usually the norm.

People have a knee-jerk reaction to D1 massclaiming that is entirely dictated by tradition and I've never seen a convincing argument that outweights all those benefits. I urge everyone to consider it with an open mind.

-----------------

Meanwhile, I'm voting Oversoul for essentially soft-claiming with no apparent benefit to the town (as Nacho has put it, we don't need a claim to know of the presence of more than one killing role), and inconsistent framing of his intent behind the claim ("was planning to all along" vs. "was trying to nip massclaim in the butt").

In post 231, fuzzybutternut wrote:B&B, then.
So yes.

In post 232, Nachomamma8 wrote:I agree with a D1 massclaim here.

In post 233, fuzzybutternut wrote:If we do that, we're popcorning.

In post 234, Nachomamma8 wrote:And we're starting with the informed townie.

In post 235, fuzzybutternut wrote:Agreed.

Fuzzy's stance regarding Massclaim: Well if we do it we are popcorning!
(its not a stance hes letting everyone else decide while he actually ignored both the initial suggestion and the follow up)

Nacho says 'I want to massclaim too!' so he says 'well if we do it popcorn!' its just not town, his opinion does not exist.

A similar thing can be credited to our friend over here;

In post 298, Bulbazak wrote:That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do.

The simple version is yes you can influence it if you really believe its not good for town you make sure it doesn't happen, he just doesn't want to. A massclaim where he as scum doesn't claim? Christmas came early!

Bulbazak · Post Post #542 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:35 am

In post 534, Oversoul wrote:
In post 531, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 529, Oversoul wrote:I'm not scum Nero and you continue to show your inability to read me
Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.
Fair enough but it is annoying and ruins my enjoyment when I have a player who always calls me scum regardless of whether or not I am scum and I just wanted to tell you that :/

Suck it up, you baby...

In post 536, Om the Destroyer wrote: Yes because calling someone out on doing something scummy is definitely stupid and scummy.
Mmm hmm.

So not denying it. Gotcha.

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #543 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:38 am

In post 539, Slandaar wrote:Who posted 526?

~Mala.

Mara is currently on V/LA. I been doing the posting since she declared it.

ISO · Post Post #544 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:39 am

Nero Cain is probably town.

Amethyst Kitty · Post Post #545 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:41 am

In post 545, Cephrir wrote:Nero Cain is probably town.

Cool. Like to explain why?

~Mala

Bulbazak · Post Post #546 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:43 am

In post 542, Slandaar wrote: A similar thing can be credited to our friend over here;
In post 298, Bulbazak wrote:That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do.
The simple version is yes you can influence it if you really believe its not good for town you make sure it doesn't happen, he just doesn't want to. A massclaim where he as scum doesn't claim? Christmas came early!

Nice misrep. But let's look at the full quote shall we:

In post 298, Bulbazak wrote: I've let my thoughts on the matter be known and have stated emphatically that I am against a mass claim. I believe it to be detrimental to town in the long run and have repeatedly stated that not only is it a bad idea, but I don't want to be a part of it. That's the best I can do in this situation, as I can't help what the rest of the town decides to do. Now I suggest we start actually looking for scum, as the mass claim discussion has become a major distraction.

Now unless you are suggesting that I have some sort of godlike power to prevent people from massclaiming, what more do you want me to do?

Mac · Post Post #547 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:44 am

Interesting to note that Bulba calls BatB a mislynch and that "scum will be pushing the wagon hard" despite saying he always reads Majiffy as scum.

ISO · Post Post #548 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:46 am

In post 545, Amethyst Kitty wrote:
In post 545, Cephrir wrote:Nero Cain is probably town.
Cool. Like to explain why?

~Mala

Reaction to getting called out on the fake PR, gut from the last two pages.

Slandaar · Post Post #549 (ISO) » Tue May 07, 2013 7:48 am

In post 546, Bulbazak wrote: Now unless you are suggesting that I have some sort of godlike power to prevent people from massclaiming, what more do you want me to do?

Well if you were town you could try to convince others not to do it. Perhaps argue why its a bad idea.

Do something.

It appears this godlike power is just common sense?