NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

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Confirm role has been read and I understand it.

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What town motivation exists to perpetuate RVS or even pre-RVS when we can move out of it as quickly as possible?

So, could you explain why you were perpetuating it until someone else decided to change things up?

It's not a twist of anything. As a townie, your primary motivation in RVS should be to get the hell out of it as quickly as possible. There are some entities trying to do that. There are other entities trying to stop that. So, explain to me the town motivation for stopping the earliest possible ending of RVS. Because you called one of those aforementioned entities town, and are calling me scum (presumably) for having my vote on him.

See, this isn't the way it all went down, from my point of view. roflcopter was calling you scum for your play towards Thor665. As a result of that read on you, he was giving more of a Town read towards Cephrir.

Why are you trying so hard to flip the script?

mollie here

.....

weak town read. genuine frustration married with I could follow his line of thinking. his reactions to majiffy's push seemed to be in the moment and consistent with what I think someone who wants a certain style of game and is willing to walk away from the game itself. I find that it is town who usually wants things to go a certain way and gets frustrated when the expectations are not met. if he is scum then he just shat on his team, cos he could have been an asset since no one at the time was reading his responses as scummy. but tbf, I have not seen a rofl scum before but I stand behind my gut feeling to his interactions.

Specifically towards pirate mollie, how/when did your Town lean towards roflcopter develop? Did the replace out matter more, or did the replace out solidify your lean?

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Yeah I brought us a legion of sheep.

I'd sheep Thor over you anyday Jiffy <3

You evil, unfeeling

bitch

.

There's the reaction I was looking for

Yeah? What reaction? What'd it tell you?

Mollie, don't you be dodging my questions girlie, why do you have Copter as town? we both have a scum lean on him. You could also answer the question I gave to Jiffy if you want

...

We will dance with the other Hydra Later when I start getting unsure feelings about them, but right now I feel comfortable with leaving them somewhat alone, especially with better targets to go after

Umm, I'm a little confused how both of these sentiments exist in a single post? Could you explain, please? Also, what targets?

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Thor dumb town, posts to actionDan make this more apparent.

If you're reading someone as Town, why are you working so hard to alienate that player?
Why, if you're reading someone as Town, are you expending effort to marginalize their opinion?

"Dumb Town, or Scum" is an exceptionally scummy read to give out for myriad reasons.

This guy needs a noose. Can't wait for the game to "officially" start so we can "quick-lynch" scum.

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around p5. "how", it was the way that rofl reacted to majiffy (didn't I already explain this?). the replace out is null, I don't think it is alignment indicative. rofl looked town to me cos of how he reacted not because he got all dramatic and went ahead and replaced out.

Alright, that makes sense. In particular, I was curious about your post 114. I was trying to figure out why you were extending the olive branch to roflcopter. It makes sense if you were already leaning Town on him.

Perpetuating?

I didn't see anything scummy, ergo I didn't act. When I did see something scummy, I did act. How is that in any form

perpetuating?

Consider yourself officially on my shitlist.

Yes,

perpetuating

. Your first 11 posts were all bullshit banter. That means you were keeping the pre-game stuff non-game related. Perpetuating it, even. The question was why you shifted gears when someone else changed the tenor of the conversation.

You didn't see anything scummy, fine. But, your posts weren't designed to find anything scummy, either. So, again, I ask, why did you shift your style when someone else changed the game environment?

Why are you trying to superimpose scumminess onto my play? You'll note the parenthetical word - presumably - in the quote. From my POV, he was calling me scum for voting Cephrir.

Sure, I noted your use of the word presumably. I wasn't directly involved in the conversation, so it may have been easier for me to see the connections after the fact, but your interpretation struck me because you had the cause and effect reversed. Your later post 105 makes me believe you really were just confused, not intentionally misconstruing the chain of events.

All things considered, I think you're slot isn't scum. The answers both of your heads gave regarding potential scum motivation in your posts seem consistent with a Town mindset much more than a scum agenda.

Your Cephrir push is weak. His suspicions towards your slot make sense from a Town point-of-view. Couple that with the following:

Since not everyone in the game is tunneling me, you're gonna have to actually debunk my arguments rather than laugh at them. Or, just keep standing by yourself in a field yelling about how I'm scum. That's fine too.

This demonstrates a belief in the things he's saying and I can totally see where someone with a Town role PM would react this way to your cutesy derision. And:

I'm gonna do my best to ignore you for a few pages, as I think I've made my position clear enough and I'm sick of arguing about exact wording and how arguments argued with arguments on arguments.

On Ryu: My initial reaction was agreement with HD (that Ryu had voted Thor arbitrarily for what he himself claimed was a dumbtell), but then I went back and read it and the posts after that one were better.

This reads significantly more like Town fed up with an argument that had spiralled way out of original context than it does like a scum retreating from a fight they feel they've lost. Plus, the double check on Red Ryu vs Thor665 seems to indicate someone who is interested in finding things out, not just casting aspersions where convenient.

tl;dr
BeautyAndTheBeast is likely town and needs to get over the push on someone else (Cephrir) who is likely Town.

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Uh, DlG, when Mara gets back.. You will have an answer to 199 as we have some unsure people that we want to poke at.
Although, the first one was a joke. I'm not sure why you are taking it seriously.
___

The Mollie/Jiffy might be town. Mollie part feels town to me at the moment.

___

I'm not sure what to make of AA9 well the wagon on OS is fast and might be a QL. It's just off because I don't feel as if she's looking for scum.

AA who's your biggest scum read and your biggest town read?

Me missing the joke is probably attributable to tone deafness on my part. I'm not part of the clique, so the inside jokes may go over my head.

I'm still curious about how you can needle at the pirate mollie head of BeautyAndTheBeast for ignoring your question, and at the same time declare you intend to leave BeautyAndTheBeast alone in lieu of better targets.

I pretty much agree with you on BeautyAndTheBeast being likely Town, and agree with your assessment of ArcAngel9. Hey, since I'm Town, and we agree, you must be Town, too. Just ask Beast.

Do you have enough experience playing with ArcAngel9 to say whether this is unusual play for her? Because, I sense she's more part of the group of players familiar to each other. I'd like to know if you think she's just coming across as scummy as a natural part of her playstyle/personality.

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Being town does not equal doing the smart thing nor that they have the right idea.

Yeah, this is dated, and all, especially since I no longer believe you're scum. My original problem was that calling someone "dumb Town" is practically guaranteed to make that player less likely to want to be cooperative with you, and Town cohesion can be a powerful weapon. Making Town cohesion more difficult serves a scum agenda. Plus, by casting another player as dumb, you send a signal that their posts should be ignored. And, regardless of my personal assessment of someone's abilities/intelligence, if I think they're Town, I want their opinion heard, not ignored. I may not agree with them, and I'll discuss with them why, but shoving them aside seems contrary to working towards a Town win.

Om is saying some of the dumbest things known to man, their posts on B&B are atrocious.

Is this another "dumb Town" read? I can't really tell, although I don't believe that's what you meant. I would appreciate you explaining some of what you find atrocious.

I really don't think Nachomamma8 is very likely scum at this juncture. Seems to me he's demonstrating a desire to make the game more difficult for scum through advocating the mass claim (my personal opinion is that early mass claims are functionally better for Town given that site meta so heavily discourages it, and scum get to hide behind "OMG SAVE THE PR'S", and scum aren't prepared for it. Forcing people to lock into a claim early takes away much of the ability of scum to craft a claim later when more is on the line. Well, plus, I derped a LYLO because of a fake claim that I believed and wouldn't have been possible to foresee that it would be beneficial if forced out early.). And, while Nachomamma8 hasn't really stressed this point, there was something significantly scummy about Oversoul's claim. That was the fact that he said he was planning to claim, but didn't when he made his first post. Then, after CrashtextDummie brought up the mass-claim, Oversoul took the easy "no way, man!" route, but then offererd his own claim up and said CrashTextDummie's idea had nothing to do with him claiming. So, Nachomamma8 pushing the Oversoul wagon seems to come from a Town motivated mind set, to me.

You got any kind of a read towards ArcAngel9?

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Alright, so, the Oversoul wagon is reasonable, and I have no qualms with 3 of the 4 voters. Bulbazak is the odd man out, due to Slandaar's Post 479. There is strange dissonance in those two posts from Bulbazak.

Hey, also, Bulbazak demonstrates absolutely no conviction in the Oversoul wagon, he's just content to sit there and hide in the crowd. I don't detect any sense that he believes he's actually voting scum.

@Nachomamma8

Walk me through why you think Oversoul would throw out such a silly and useless claim as scum. I mean, I get the fact that the claim doesn't amount to anything worthwhile. Still, I can't quite imagine someone with a scum role PM reacting to the mass claim proposal by going, "No massclaim guys, but I'm gonna make a worthless fake claim". Seems like the scum response would be much more likely to just take the "pro-Town" line of "mass claim is baaaaaad, we've got to protect our PR's at all costs, no way I'm claiming anything!".

Also, why'd you have the early Town read on ArcAngel9, and is that still where you're at on her?

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VOTE: ArcAngel9
I'm truly disturbed by the complete lack of scumhunting.

We should massclaim. I am not joking.

Raise of hands, everyone in favor.

are you crazy.. No claims plz!!!!!!!!!!



Mastin2, I don't have any issue with HD hydra.

This is the kind of reaction I expect to a proposed massclaim from scum. Belittle the idea, but take no initiative to figure out why someone is proposing such an idea.

Also, rather than any commentary about any of the content that developed pre-game, or up to that point, an aside to the mod that served no purpose.

^wow, that VCA is just mind blowing. Great job Mastin

This post, in particular, gave me scum feelings towards ArcAngel9. Absolutely no commentary on the game state, no attempts to figure anything out. Prefering to interact with the mod over interacting with the game and other players is not Town motivated.

Her later commentary that the Oversoul wagon is bad 'cuz it's soooo quick again betrays her lack of interest in figuring out anyone's alignment.

Yep, yep, this is scummy behavior from someone who got a scum role PM. Let's lynch her.

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@ Bulbazak

To answer your question, in 492, I was talking to Red Ryu about why I believed voting Nachomamma8 was wrong. Based on several factors, I thought Nachomamma8 was most likely Town motivated in his push.

In 493, I was digging deeper into Nachomamma8's thoughts about Oversoul. I understood the surface reasons behind calling Oversoul out for the claim, but I disagreed with the conclusion that Oversoul was likely scum. So, I was interested in how Nachomamma8 perceived the motivation behind Oversoul making that claim as scum.

I mean, just because I believe someone is likely acting from Town motivation doesn't mean I agree with their conclusion(s). And, just because I believe someone is likely acting from Town motivation, doesn't mean I'm right about them.

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Lack of scumhunting? And what exactly you did so far other than this small litte post that says i am scum?
Out of 24 players you dont have reads on anyone else, neither you have any case on an on-going arguments, there is so much scummy ness flalling around, there are palyers who has hardly said anything, Players like Fuzzy is being jumping in every possible wagons, OS wagon is with full of opputunistis, Yet you get an isolated read on me out of everything else and voted with out asking for explanation? Seems like an easy move, If you wanted to know whats my town play or mafia play, its available on my wiki and the statistics in my signature or even you can follow my profile link for the game threads that i have palyed. You haven't seen my playstyle, nor completly analyzed my ISO on this game, nor reading the game, nor had any other cases ..and voted me right away???? OMMFG, who thought you to play like this? Your scummy buddies?

Welp, for fun, try reading this, then we can discuss whether I have any other reads on anyone else. Or, no opinions on things going on in the thread. Or, no commentary on the Oversoul wagon.

Get back to me when you're done reading.

And, I know, what was I thinking voting for someone who I believe is scummy? It's so scummy, really.

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The above signifies taking active, meaningful action in response to something trying to stop a situation. You'll note that I did not do this; as soon as something came along that I perceived could push us out of RVS, I followed up on it. This is the exact

opposite

of perpetuating. It also answers your second question.

Now kindly fuck off.

So, I take it that you didn't find Thor665's Betegeuse tell on Oversoul something that could push us out of RVS? I'm curious about your Oversoul read. Do you have one?

And, for what it's worth, you're not nearly impressive enough to dismiss me. No matter your own over-inflated self-image.

Yes, buddy me, that will make me think you're town.

We appear to have very different definitions of buddying. Could you share yours and how it applies to how I developed my read on you? Or, failing that, could you explain why you're throwing mud at me?

My Cephrir push has nothing to do with his suspicions on my slot, so clearly you have no understanding of why I'm pushing Cephrir for you to call it weak.

Cephrir isn't town.

Yeah, this is kind of my fault for the way I put those thoughts together. I know that wasn't part of your case on Cephrir. My intent was to say that your case on him is weak. I also think it's wrong because I disagree with your conclusion about his alignment. Me saying his suspicions against you make sense from a Town point of view was related to me reading him as Town, not related to saying your case is weak.

I think the case is weak because the initial point about trying to prevent exiting RVS is o.k. as a starting point for many games. But, I truly don't think it's a real valid indicator of alignment. I also think it's weak because your accusation isn't really accurate.

Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

Vote: Thor

I mean, it's pretty clear that taking the action of voting someone for making a ridiculous statement shows no interest in staying in RVS. It's a vote against another player's actions/words/behavior.

And, even if it wasn't crystal clear at this point, Cephrir only took exception to Thor665's position on someone only confirming during the confirmation stage. No objection to his pushing the Betelgeuse thing on Oversoul. No objection to pushing about the "bad reaction test that ignores the current game state".

So, really, I don't get how you even believe Cephrir's vote on Thor665 was some attempt to perpetuate RVS.

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{Amethyst Kitty, Bacde, BeautyAndTheBeast, Cephrir, Nero Cain, Om the Destroyer} --> Players I have no interest in lynching.
{ArcAngel9, Bulbazak} --> Players I would instantly lynch given the chance.
{Desperado, Nachomamma8, Slandaar} --> Players I'm uncertain about.

Everyone else has either made no impression on me, or haven't posted.

The whole 3rd party/Indie thing threw me for a loop when I read through it. My Town read on BeautyAndTheBeast just about went out the window. With a little more explanation, I'm thinking it probably was a dust up over different meanings applied to the same general term.

My read on Nachomamma8 dropped away from Town through this, though. I mean, I don't at all get him calling Nero Cain's flare up a dumb point. That looked a significant amount like potentially Nachmamma8 subtly buddying pirate mollie in particular, and through that, the hydra read on him. I'm a little unsure about this point, but that was my initial reaction on reading that post.

So, anyway, I'd really like to see more votes on ArcAngel9 or Bulbazak. I really don't like what is coming across as Bulbazak white-knighting BeautyAndTheBeast.