Diffusion of Power (Open 478) over

[Disturbed_One]

Hey all, I'm currently catching up and will post soon. Going to read through the thread one more time.

[Disturbed_One]

Okay, so the first thing I'm going to do is...

UNVOTE: Wisdom

Here are my thoughts on players:

fuzzybutternut:

Leaning scummy, he has a parked vote on Wisdom that I really, really don't like. In post #35, he stated that he didn't want to lynch anyone early. By post #130, he is still on the same vote he made in RVS. His scum-hunting primarily consists of him asking the opinion of others, I absolutely dislike this.

Human Destroyer:

Leaning town. I don't like his jump from the Zab wagon to Tiger, nor do I like his reasoning for doing so. However, he really seems genuine about it and his intent seems very pro-town. His game looks a lot like the one he played in the game I played with him, where he was town.

Kmd4390:

Completely neutral, have to hear more from him before I form an opinion.

Mitillos:

Neutral, would like to hear more from as well. I do like his response to Wisdom.

pirate mollie:

Leaning scum. Don't like her at all. Don't like how she doesn't explain her town reads. I don't like how she declares players as "scum", but doesn't follow through with a vote.

Does anyone know if she normally plays this way? I've never played with any of you except for HD and Zab, so I'm wondering if this is normal for her. I'd be up for lynching her.

ProHawk:

Pro-town. I completely agree with his stance on Mollie and Tiger and I really like the posts coming from him. He sticks to his reads and arguments in such a way that I do not at all question if they're genuine.

Siveure DtTrikyp:

Neutral, not really leaning either way on this guy. I haven't found any of his posts inherently pro-town or inherently scummy.

The Puck:

Neutral. I hate to sound like a broken record, but how can I judge someone with just three posts in the game?

theslimer3:

What I don't like about this guy is that I feel he'd be very difficult to read regardless of his alignment. So far he seems reasonable, I'm not a fan of the playstyle, however.

tigerzone:

The lynch for the day, as far as I'm concerned. Highly discourteous behavior that seemingly made the previous player in my spot replace, I dislike this and think it's rather anti-town to post like that. His posts also come off as highly defensive in my opinion. In addition, his attack on HD is a blatant OMGUS.

Wisdom:

Leaning town. I disagree with a lot of his reasoning, I've got to say. I thought petroleumjelly raised some decent points against him, but I do in fact like and am satisfied with Wisdom's rebuttal.

zabriel:

Leaning scummy. I agree with his reasoning for the Tigerzone PL, but I dislike the fact that he's kept his vote on the same slot since the beginning of the game. His scum-hunting essentially consists of him wanting to PL Tiger and questioning Wisdom about his stance on HD. He is only offering the Tiger PL, yet he dedicates posts to defending Mollie. I find the general lack of scum-hunting scummy. It also doesn't help that he has a decent post count in this game, which really drives the point home how little he's actually doing. ISO him and you find lots of posts, but little content. He played the same way in the game I played with him, where he was scum.

Right now, the best lynch is clearly Tigerzone in my opinion. He has a few votes on him, so I'm going to check the vote count before I vote him.

[Disturbed_One]

VOTE: tigerzone

[Disturbed_One]

If tigerzone does prove to be scum then I'd be willing to bet the farm on PetroleumJelly being a partner. The way he jumped ship as soon as tigerzone showed useless behavior is quite telling.

That's hardly a tell. PetroleumJelly clearly wasn't comfortable with playing in a game with "foul language", he made a request to tone it down and tiger came back with a direct attack.

[Disturbed_One]

Geez, 6 pages of back-and-forth between HD and Wisdom? You guys are killing me. Actual post coming up in a bit, but I have to say. Please slow down.

[Disturbed_One]

I'm not sure I like Wisdom's defend everyone attitude. Does he normally do that as town?

If someone has an answer to this, I'd really like to hear it.

My stance on Mollie hasn't changed with her most recent posts, I'm still fine with lynching her. I dislike the HD vote, and the HD wagon itself needs to die. An OMGUS is not what I wanted to see out of Mollie right now.

@ everyone defending Mollie, riddle me this:

If Mollie plays this way every game, then why should we keep her alive? How are you going to know if she got a scum role in this game? I don't care if she plays this way as town, how are you going to figure out her alignment if she's scum?

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

@ fuzzy:

It's not the Wisdom vote itself that bothers me, moreso the fact that were unable to find a better vote. I don't care if he was ever in danger of being lynched, it's your lack of scum-hunting I find troublesome. I find your forms of questioning players a bit weak. Not at all liking your reasoning for voting HD, either.

Also, in my reads I threw out some points about Tiger that weren't just about his uncalled attitude. What do you think about them?


I must confess I'm skimming through a lot of the back-and-forth between Wisdom and HD. From what I have
read, I see this as a town-on-town confrontation. I'm confident that HD is town, Wisdom to a lesser extent but overall he seems pro-town.

@ Wisdom:

In the game I played with him, HD became increasingly frustrated when I was pushing for the lynch of a player I found scummy but he did not. Not quite as frustrated (he didn't resort to an all-caps post), but his frustration now definitely falls in line with the profile of his play in the game I played with him.

I haven't seen anything out of HD that seems out of the ordinary.

Mollie voting Wisdom is so sudden and ubrupt and it feels very contrived. I dislike Mollie's playstyle more and more with each post.

@ tigerzone:

Your vote was an OMGUS because you immediately responded with a counter-vote, for reasons that weren't quite valid enough to warrant the vote on HD. Your reasons basically amount to, "you're scum because you disagree with me." That's not a case and it's OMGUS.

As for examples of your defensiveness, you talk about your actions and how they're not scummy quite a lot. Definitely more so than the amount of effort you've put into scum-hunting. This comes off as quite defensive.

I'm not joining the Wisdom wagon. Sorry to disappoint. I see more pro-town things about him then scummy things.

I would like to say I completely agree with Prohawk on this, and instead of seeing Prohawk replace I would like to see tiger replaced. Prohawk, I urge you to reconsider replacing. You have support for tiger's replacement/lynch here, I'd hate to see you give up on this.

My vote stands on tiger, it is only partially due to his disrespectful playstyle, however. Also because he is overly defensive and he overreacted to a reasonable post by HD. These are scummy reactions and are definitely telling.

[Disturbed_One]

Also, The Puck's reasoning was certainly bad as for the associative tells, but I'm not quite convinced they're scum because of it. The Puck's last post seemed rather emotionally charged, which I find to be a town-tell.

[Disturbed_One]

D_O pls be enlightened by #337

You'll thank me later

I read it and don't feel particularly enlightened.

You came off as very frustrated and Wisdom's reaction seems genuine to me. Pure townie frustration can be difficult for scum to pull off, so it's not unreasonable backing off the wagon.

I read your interaction with Wisdom as town-on-town and I stand by that.

Now come wagon Tiger with me, because I actually have reasoning other than his disrespectful behavior towards the player previously in my slot. Look at his defensive nature in his posts and tell me how he isn't scum.

As far as your other reads, I agree with the OMGUS part. I honestly can't tell if HD and Tiger are town, or scum. I could see scum coming into the game, and talking back and forth like this, constantly, in fact, so much that it takes up pages and pages of what could be actual content.

So far, you haven't liked either of my votes. Tell me then. Who should I vote for Oh mighty Disturbed_One?

I guess I can accept that, as much as I dislike your scum-hunting methods, this post does seem genuine.

I won't tell you who to vote for, though if you're looking for approval, I would find a Tiger or Mollie vote much more productive than your current vote.

Do you really find HD using a meta-tell to discern my alignment all that scummy?

[Disturbed_One]

Given that it was after your first post, where you had done nothing but state your opinions on certain people, yes. Had he waited until later, when you had posted more and scum hunted, I wouldn't have found it scummy at all. There is no way one post can give away alignment. That post read null to me.

But he actually played a game with me, is that really such an outlandish call to make? I'll admit, I found his declaration strange at first too, but once he explained it, I didn't have a problem with his reasoning.

I did the same exact thing to read him in this game, I used a previous game I had played with him to make a comparison. He even posted the game he used to make the judgment.


Glad we're seeing tiger replaced.

[Disturbed_One]

I'm going to stay on tiger for now. I want to hear the replacement's response to my accusations.

[Disturbed_One]

Well, to be fair, your "explanation" was simply putting together a ton of Wisdom's posts and expecting me to come to the same conclusion you did about them.

But yes, I do like what Prohawk has to say on the matter and I agree. I didn't observe this until now (probably because I skimmed through a lot of the banter between yourself and Wisdom), but Wisdom seems to say a lot of things he/she doesn't really mean. That does seem a bit strange to me.

I also personally dislike how he defends more people than he actually accuses, which makes it seem as though he's trying to "buddy up" with as many people as possible, so he has allies if he needs them. Some of his reasoning/explanation for defending players is downright weird, for example, calling Mollie town from a null read.

I also wanted to directly respond to Wisdom's point in post #365.

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

I strongly dislike this. What, are you proposing a policy lynch on mollie now? Who said that nobody can read her?

Yes, I am. No one said they couldn't read her, but who said they could actually read her? If Mollie plays anti-town every game, then there is no way to prove what her alignment actually is. If she got a scum-role, we'd be none the wiser from her playstyle.

That said, I asked a reasonable question which you completely chose to ignore, and seeing as you choose to defend Mollie this means that you are in fact dodging a question that is directed at you. Why did you cut that part of my post out, Wisdom?

My question still stands. If Mollie is scum, then who here knows how to read her? Prove how you're going to figure out what alignment she is, ultimately. If you can't, then she is ultimately a liability.

I'm starting to think Wisdom may in fact be the lynch of the day.

UNVOTE: CF Riot
VOTE: Wisdom

[Disturbed_One]

Why would I know who can read her and who can't? We will read her as any other player - based on her posts and actions. There never was an issue that mollie is such an awesome player that we'll never read her (although that might become the case if you insert Majiffy in the mix, but we'll see), so proposing a policy lynch is terribad. We should lynch scum, not whoever is difficult to read.

Or because I'm trying to scumhunt and I can't see people accusing people for bullshit reasons, such as things solely related on playstyle. It's not even like I defended anyone, I just shot down the accusations on mollie and slimer because they were bullshit - I am not sure either of them is town though.

You didn't answer why you cut my question out of my post. Why did you that, Wisdom?

Not proposing a way to read an otherwise unreadable player is what's "terribad" here. What I am saying is that Mollie plays in a way that's anti-town, so how do we determine that player's alignment if they play this way every game? I'm not saying you should know the answer to this. My point here is that you can't tell the difference between town-Mollie and scum-Mollie. If you think you can, prove it. (Although judging by your responses to me, I think you cannot.)

I'd hate to be in a position where it becomes vital to our survival to figure out if she's town or not, for example, LYLO. That's my fear here, and nothing you have said has alleviated that fear.

You say Mollie isn't unreadable, prove it. Show me a game where she got busted as scum using her strategy. And I don't mean by playing the way she is now. Because according to you, there should be a difference between town-Mollie and scum-Mollie. Correct? If so, prove it. Show me a game. If not, then your point is null, frankly.

"We should lynch scum, not whoever is difficult to read."

And what do you propose we do if the ones that are hard to read get the scum role-card? I don't think Mollie can be read. If you think differently, show me that game.

Shooting down accusations, regardless of if they're actually "bullsmurf" or not, on behalf of someone else is defending them. Any player can defend themselves, so you doing it for them is defending them, whether you agree you did so or not. That's exactly what you did, you defended them.

This is my central problem with you, really. You're not sure if mollie and slimer are actually town, yet you're defending them and doing nothing to figure out their alignment. As I said, you are spending more effort defending people than actually scum-hunting.

So if you're not actually scum-hunting, then what in fact are you doing? My vote stands.

[Disturbed_One]

Yeah and I'll repeat, who said that she's "unreadable"? You're misrepping and it's bad.
Do you think that someone can tell the alignment of a player basing only on meta? Let her post more, let actions unfold and we'll be able to read her. I don't understand how she becomes "unreadable" because certain actions of her are null.
I don't understand why you think mollie cannot be read. Have you had a problem with reading her in the past? How is she different than any other player in here? Can I be read? Can you be read? Can slimer be read? Possibly, when we do certain actions and post certain things we might be able to be read. Same goes for mollie. I don't understand why she's different for you.
I didn't defend anyone, I merely pointed out the accusations were invalid. You're still misrepping.

I'm not quoting anyone, just stating my opinion, yet I'm misrepresenting? You're the one who's misrepresenting

me

, nowhere did I say that I thought anyone had said that.
That's not at all my point. My point is exactly the opposite of what you're saying. My point is that I do not believe Mollie can be read, my "evidence" for this point is that she plays inherently anti-town regardless of her alignment. You're claiming that you think we can read her based on her actions, I am just asking you to back that up with previous experience. I'm not saying that meta can determine her alignment, in fact I'm saying the exact opposite. I do

not

think meta can determine her alignment. I do not think observing her actions can determine her alignment, either. And for these reasons, I am saying that I feel she is fair game to lynch. Based on the grounds that we cannot tell if she is town or scum, and therefore that makes her dangerous.

I have never played with Mollie before. Mollie is different from the other players because she plays in a way that is anti-town, regardless of alignment. slimer is also different in this regard. You and I are more likely to play pro-town regardless of our alignment, though we can actually "slip-up" when we post something anti-town. Mollie and slimer cannot, because they are already posting in an anti-town fashion, so therefore it is impossible for them to slip up.

I'm not misrepresenting you, and I have no need to argue with you about this. You

did

defend them, and you're not fooling anyone. Simply stating that I am misrepresenting you does not actually make it so.

[Disturbed_One]

Going to be responding to two different people now. This may take a while.

[Disturbed_One]

prohawk if I have to witness another game of scum butkissing and you totally buying I am going to

hurt

you

no, what

you

are doing is buddying up. wisdom is defending players against hd's dumb accusation do you know why? cos they are really dumb.

eta: I have not even read the xposts yet, I have been texting majiffy trying to get our account activated.

list what I have done that is anti-town, k tia

what hd listed were things he finds scummy...he is wrong and it is funny cos he is somebody who has actually

seen

my scum game. I was recruited in a game we played together. you are calling those same things anti-town. you know what that implies? that you know my alignment. the only people who could know my alignment for sure are scum. and you have been banging on for pages about, "how I am so hard to read" and I should be lynched for it. w.t.f.

jesus christ I am hydra-ing with majiffy cos shit like this ^^^ makes me lose my temper and I will vote him cos I think he is being an ass although he just dropped that he thinks I am town but he wants to lynch me anyways for shitty reasons and then tries to paint anybody who disagrees with those shitty reasons as scummy.

scumhunting comes down to discerning whether or not a post comes from a town POV and yours reeks DO. so does hd's cos he is basically trying to meta me on meta he has but somehow is managing to ignore.

sorry I got paranoid about you wisdom.

Calling players dumb does two things:

1. It actually makes you look dumber than the people who are actually making valid points.

2. It illustrates how you don't have a point in the first place, because if you had one, you'd be making it instead of calling other players names.

I'm glad you agree that Wisdom is defending people, because you know he says that he doesn't. It's a very pro-town thing, to do one thing and say another, right?

Hmm... why aren't you voting Wisdom again?

I think HD's arguments were and still are valid. Prove how they aren't, preferably in reasoning that doesn't consist of "because he's dumb."

You are anti-town because nearly all of your posts are void of any content. The content that you do actually post is either impossible to understand or not at all useful. You also do not go very in-depth on your reads, and instead call your scum-reads names, suggesting you don't actually have any reason to suspect them in the first place.

Interesting... so HD is wrong, and that makes him scum? Seeing as Wisdom was unable to answer this question, maybe you can answer it for me. Show me one of your scum games and illustrate how it is any different from the one you're playing now. HD knows how you play as scum? I don't know how you play as scum, why don't you tell me?

I don't know how you made the connection that because I call you "anti-town" that I somehow know your alignment. Frankly, I don't care either, as it's a bunch of malarkey.

I honestly cannot understand the rest of your post, it's seemingly gibberish. Something about how my play "reeks", once again not for any discernible reason other than the fact you disagree with me.

Case in point, you don't actually have any valuable scum-reads. That's probably because you're not actually scum-hunting.

jesus christ

list where I have been anti-town

and just cos you can't read me does not count

and if you have never played with me before then how can genuinely discredit other people who say they can?

hey bud, I gave you some pro-tips on how to scum hunt...you read a post and you determine the motivation behind the post. if you use that criteria you cannot say anything that I have done in this game is anti-town

also your fixation is starting to feel a little creepy and weird and/or downright scummy, I just can't tell if it is feigned or not

I responded to your previous post how you are anti-town. I will

not

repeat myself.

The thing is, I'd be comfortable lynching you based on your behavior alone. Your behavior has been "anti-town" in my opinion, and I'd be fine lynching you for it. The only thing that keeps me from voting you this very instant, is the fact you seemingly play this way every single game. I can and

have

read you as anti-town, I would lynch you if not for the fact you always play this way.

No one has said they can read you. I've asked for specific examples from your pal, Wisdom, but he has been unable to answer that question other than saying that we'll somehow be able to figure it out from your play. I don't agree, because if you always play in an anti-town fashion, there's no way you can slip-up anymore than you are already doing.

Do you play pro-town as scum or something? Unless you do, then there is no way to read you. I have requested you to illustrate how your scum game is different from your town game. Until you do, I am forced to believe there is not a difference.

Actually, I can totally say almost everything you've done in this game is anti-town, using that exact criteria. As I said, the only thing keeping me from voting based on this information, is that it is normal play for you.

Interesting theory. I was previously unaware one could be "fixated" while pursuing another read entirely and voting for that read. I'll be sure to note this for the future, thank you for enlightening me!

[Disturbed_One]

Yes, you're taking several things that are

your own interpretations

as facts, and I call that misrepping. Like for example that "I defended people" while I defended nobody (because I don't count pointing out that bullshit accusations are bullshit as defending), or that mollie is unreadable (I still dont understand how on earth you came up with this).

We have different opinions of what is "anti-town", because I don't consider mollie's play anti-town. She's scumhunting in her own way. Same goes for slimer. Each person plays differently. They might be criticized at first but once you play with them and become familiar with them you understand that's their normal play.

I do not understand where you pulled "mollie is unreadable" out of. This is your claim, and you should be the one to prove why she is. I don't have any obligation to prove why she isn't unreadable because simply, by default, players are not unreadable. You're the one who suddenly came up with "mollie is unreadable". And now you say you have not played with her. This is bullshit, and probably scummy too.

That's not misrepresenting you, that's calling it how I see it. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's my opinion. I am quite thankful to have one, actually. Your misrepresentation is in fact greater, because you are putting words in my mouth that I never said.

However, it's not an opinion that you defended mollie and others, though. What you did is the definition of defending someone. Feel free to disagree with the universal definition to defending someone, but by that definition you are guilty of defending others.

Think about it. If an accusation is made, it is up to the accused to defend that accusation. By attacking that accusation, you are thereby robbing them of that responsibility and taking it on as your own responsibility.

You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm not. And I'm confident others will see it that way as well.

I still say Mollie is unreadable and have factual evidence as to why she is that way. Unless you have counter-evidence, you do not have a point. It's that simple really. Honor my request and find a scum game she plays differently, and then we'll talk.

If you believe Mollie is scum-hunting, you are mistaken. What she does is not called scum-hunting. You're a fool if you believe throwing out baseless accusations and using "this player is dumb" as a point constitutes scum-hunting.

I have more than adequately expressed my views on Mollie and do not need to prove anything. You claim she can be read. Until you back up that statement, you do not have a point. You're attacking my point, if you want your attack to have any validity, then you need to back up your statement.

My request is not unreasonable. By not abiding to it, you have proven you cannot back up your statement. Your argument is completely invalid and baseless.

Furthermore, answer my question this instant about why you directly cut out part of my post. I'm tired of you dodging it and I'm not even considering unvoting until you explain why you did that. You ignored a question that was directed at Mollie's defenders, which include you. You chose to respond to my post, but not the question. Why is that?

I am done arguing with you about Mollie. Prove your statements or I will not accept them as valid. Show me one of Molly's scum games. As you said, townies are supposed to look for meta anyway, so go fetch me that meta where Molly plays a scum game differently than how she plays her town game.

[Disturbed_One]

So what makes her anti-town is the "lack of content"?
Awesome - tell me how slimer, The Puck, Siveure, kmd have posted any more content than mollie. By your logic, they're all anti-town.
The content that she posts is impossible to understand? I disagree, I understand everything she has said. If

you

cannot understand, that doesn't mean it's impossible to understand. Same goes for the usefulness.

No, that doesn't make her anti-town. That's a playstyle. And the longer you keep taking "mollie is anti-town" as a given, the more it will look like you're scum and you're misrepping on purpose. Because that's bullshit - mollie is not being anti-town.

Lack of content and putting forth no effort towards a cohesive thought regarding scum-hunting, other than "HD is stupid". Yes, that is what makes her anti-town.

I have expressed that I feel similarly about slimer, but he's actually been able to express some cohesive thoughts, unlike Mollie. For example, his vote on you was clearly reasoned in comparison to any post Mollie has ever made.

"Lack of posts" does

not

equal "lack of content." Mollie has a decent post count, but the content within the posts is what is lacking.

I can understand most of what she says, but some of her posts I find difficult to read. You're right, that is a personal thing, it still doesn't change the fact her posts are generally void of content.

Yes, it does make her anti-town. Simply stating it is not does not make it so.

[Disturbed_One]

Even Mollie thinks you are defending people. You aren't fooling anyone.

On the contrary, it is you who looks scummier with every post, denying something that is obvious that you did.

[Disturbed_One]

That said, I asked a reasonable question which you completely chose to ignore, and seeing as you choose to defend Mollie this means that you are in fact dodging a question that is directed at you. Why did you cut that part of my post out, Wisdom?

If Mollie plays this way every game, then why should we keep her alive? How are you going to know if she got a scum role in this game? I don't care if she plays this way as town, how are you going to figure out her alignment if she's scum?

If you can't read her, then she's just a liability and needs to go. End of story.

[Disturbed_One]

@401
I have nothing to prove to you - players are not unreadable by default, and same goes for mollie. It's extraordinary to say someone is unreadable in the first place, so you should be the one to back that up with meta and whatnot. You have not backed it up - your reasons for why mollie is "anti-town" are invalid. You are attacking playstyle, nothing more.

Also I don't know what question you are referring to, please quote it.

@402
Her posts are fine, if you don't like them/ don't understand them it's your own problem. Saying she is anti-town because of that is bullshit - saying she is unreadable is even bigger bullshit. You're merely attacking playstyle.

@403
I don't care who thinks what. I simply respond to whatever I feel is invalid. If you want to take it as defending, fine.

You don't? That's interesting, you've spent quite a lot of time attempting to do just that.

You are correct that my statements are essentially opinions. What makes yours any different? If I have to prove my statements using meta, than so do you. It is illogical to think you have a point here.

I could say that you thinking her posts are "fine" is "bullsmurf", but I won't, because that's not even a valid argument. Her posts lack content, it's a fact. Anyone that ISOs her (except for you, apparently) should be able to figure that out.

[Disturbed_One]

Funny how you said that I "ignored" this question when I in fact addressed it in my first posts after the post that had the question.
Another misrep. Keep going.

You think this constitutes "addressing" a question? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4723475

You cut out the question and did not directly address it.

Keep going.

[Disturbed_One]

Yup, that constitutes addressing a question. That's all I felt for your question because it was calling mollie unreadable and proposing her as a policy lynch, which was completely out of place.

Why did you cut the question out of your post, then?

[Disturbed_One]

Mollie doesn't play like a "normal" player plays this game, don't try to act like she does. There's nothing normal about her play-style or theslimer's playstyle. I am not any more obliged to prove my statements than you are.

Not posting content 15 pages into the game is simply not a "playstyle thing."

[Disturbed_One]

I responded to the part of the question that stuck out the most. What difference would it make if I quoted the whole question anyway?

Because quoting indicates that you have read and are responding to something. You did not so.

Also, I was not satisfied with a response. A question demands an answer, not another question. That is because you did not actually address the question.

[Disturbed_One]

*with your response, I mean.

[Disturbed_One]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4723475

Show me where you quoted any part of my question in this post.

[Disturbed_One]

I fully believe you read it, you just chose not to answer it, going as far as to cut it out of the quote of your post to do so.

[Disturbed_One]

I've made my case. It's obvious you're lying and it is ridiculous for you to try and deny it.

[Disturbed_One]

I was unaware that null reads constituted defense. Are you sure it doesn't just look that way because you had tiger and mollie as scummy?

He says they're just null reads, which is interesting because he spends so much time defending them that you'd think they're town reads. A null read typically doesn't constitute that, but there's a ton of posts he dedicates to defending them.

I'm not liking Distrubed's support of policy lynches (tiger and then mollie).
@Disturbed: Do you have meta examples of yourself where you support policy lynches, like that? (As both alignments if possible, please.)

I do not have any meta examples. Although, Tiger was not a PL for me. I had reasoning other than his behavior that made me think he was scummy. He played highly defensively and his case on HD was a complete OMGUS. I am aware that wasn't quite enough to seal the deal for you, however.

Why HD? He's one of the towniest players here.


Also, @zabriel, not really down for lynching The Puck until we hear more from him.

[Disturbed_One]

Which is because there's an equal amount of "anti-town" reads that consist of invalid bullsmurf. As far as you post those, you'll get "defending" from me (which is more *attacking* the invalid bullsmurf, but whatever you like to call it is fine)

You know, just because you call it something else, doesn't mean it isn't defending someone. In fact, attacking accusations is defending. So by attacking accusations aimed at other people, you are defending them.

I find it very telling that you can't seem to stand the idea that we think you're defending people.

[Disturbed_One]

@Disturbed: I'm not sure that defensiveness and OMGUS aren't null-tells, to be honest. And I'm not sure that HD's scumhunting is sincere.

Also, What CF said. Take it easy guys.

I don't understand exactly what you mean. Are you saying that you think they're null or that they're indicative of alignment? Just don't quite understand your phrasing.

I find it quite sincere, have you played with HD before? If you haven't, you can check out the game he linked. I feel like he's playing pretty in-line with how he played in that game, personally.

[Disturbed_One]

@ theslimer3:

Really not liking your attitude. Truth be told, it's annoying the hell out of me. I had to replace in this game and had eight or so pages to read. And you know what? I read them. Twice. Then when I came back, I had six more pages to read. And I read them.

Get over it.

[Disturbed_One]

Yeah but he said he purposely changes his play each time. Doesn't that make that invalid?

I can only go by what I have seen, and what I have seen is one game with him and this one. He hasn't changed much at all between those two games, in my personal opinion.

[Disturbed_One]

@Disturbed: Yeah, sorry, I do that sometimes. I'm saying I think those are null-tells (defnesiveness, OMGUS). And no, I haven't played directly with HD, but as I said, his play here reminds me of one of his scum games, that I watched.

Alright, got ya.

To be fair, I am waiting to see what comes from the slot before making a final judgment on it. At the time I voted for tiger, I felt his tells were significant enough to vote on. I feel we have better options now, however, namely Wisdom.

[Disturbed_One]

You have yet to tell me where I lied though.

What would be the point of that? You'd just disagree.

I outlined that lied about cutting out part of my post in order to evade a question. I won't argue with you about it, instead we shall see what the other players make of it.

[Disturbed_One]

@Disturbed: To be honest I don't see it. You say he hasn't addressed your question. The thing is, I said you were pushing for a PL on mollie. The same thing Wisdom said. That's exactly addressing your question, in what I consider a pro-town manner. We shouldn't lynch mollie (or anyone) for being too hard to read, because that would be a PL and PLs are generally bad. Now mollie is in a hydra (which makes reading her harder) with Majiffy (who is also quite difficult to read). Should we lynch them for that, irrespective of their actual alignment? No, that's a very anti-town thing to do.
I take Wisdom's response to be a perfectly valid answer and my read on him is town.

If you don't see it, then you don't see it. I can't help you there. Either you're blind, or I'm reading too much into this. But I still see it that way and it has everything to do with the fact he cut out the question.

You tell me, why cut out part of a post if you're addressing it? That's because he wasn't addressing it directly.

PLs being bad is your opinion. I'll be honest; I'm not the biggest fan of PLs myself. However, I do think they can be a necessary evil when playing with players that would be too difficult to discern their alignment, if they got a scum role-card. In the case of Mollie and also in the case of theslimer3, who refuse to play this game the way most people go about playing it, it makes it difficult for us to judge their behavior rationally, because their behavior is not at all normal play for town or scum.

I feel this makes players like Mollie and theslimer3 a liability. It's my opinion players such as themselves are fair game to be lynched.

That's my opinion and I stand by it. I respect that you have a different opinion, but I think you're wrong and I do wish you'd see things my way, because I feel I'm not coming from an illogical place here.

I would never lynch Majiffy just because he's Majiffy, but that's because he's not different in terms of playstyle. He's just a damn good player. He is difficult to read, but not because he plays in an inherently harmful way to the town. His playstyle is fairly normal, he is just good at playing an identical town game to his scum game.

He's also not impossible to read, just highly difficult to read. I consider an anti-town playstyle, like the ones Mollie and theslimer3 use, to be an impossible to read playstyle.

I have asked for evidence to show that it is possible to read them, but it has not been given to me. I can directly prove that Majiffy

can

be read, as I played a game with him where he was scum and we foiled his plan, ultimately. No one has directly proven to me that Mollie and theslimer3 can be read.

That's all I'm asking for. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Disturbed_One]

wow

With contributions like this, who needs a scum-team?

[Disturbed_One]

What are you guys contributing? Nothing. You're making pointless arguments about who thinks who was defending who.

Actually read through HD's arguments and I'm 99.9% sure you will not think they are pointless.

In the case of the 0.1%, what exactly do you find pointless about it?

It's not really at all about the defending, but rather how Wisdom lies and how he reacts to the fact that he is defending players. It's scummy beyond belief.

[Disturbed_One]

I didn't cut out anything, stop using this silly misrep. Your claim that mollie is unreadable was bullshit, and my reaction to it was absolutely enough.

So now slimer too? Noted.

You are. Different people have different playstyles. That does not mean they are anti-town and that does not mean they're unreadable.

And nobody needs to, because saying they're unreadable is a huge stretch.

It is. The majority of the players can be read. If you can't read them, and you're not willing to try in just your first game with them, you're just a bad player.

Yeah, see the thing is this. You

did

cut out part of my post. The only person that is misrepresenting you is yourself, ironically enough.

Your mom. I know that's not a valid argument, but just calling my argument bullsmurf isn't a valid argument, either. Do you understand how silly your denial sounds?

I have always maintained that about slimer3. Check my reads, bro.

It does mean they are anti-town and it does make them unreadable. Submit evidence to the contrary, or be disregarded. The only reason you are continuing with this silly little "argument" of yours, is because you can't actually prove your point. That is because it is arbitrary. In fact, if you had a point, you would have proven it posts ago.

You can't prove that what I'm saying is a huge stretch. Neither can you provide evidence for your claim that Mollie can be read. Therefore, your entire argument is invalid.

What you can't seem to grasp with that head of yours, is that I have, in fact, read them. And the results of my read, are that they are anti-town. The fact that you think that you can argue with the results of my own personal read, is hilarious. A read is just that and nothing more. You have completely misconstrued my entire point and posted walls of text (if we were to collect your posts) about how I'm so wrong and illogical and you're somehow right. Despite the fact, of course, that you are unable to submit any form of logical evidence to the contrary.

[Disturbed_One]

Wisdom's reaction is still scummy. He could have just said that she's been caught or showed me a game, but he didn't. Instead, we got walls of text about how the burden of proof wasn't on him. He's still scum and needs to be lynched.

@ zabriel:

Mind showing me the games where Molly and Slimer were caught as scum? I feel like I wouldn't be able to read them properly otherwise.

[Disturbed_One]

I read her as completely the same from this game to that game. Maybe I'm a bad judge, I can't really see much of a difference. If you have any specifics on what exactly is any more scummy about her than this game, I'd be happy to hear them.

In any case, you gave me the game so I guess I'm fine with keeping Mollie around.

[Disturbed_One]

So because I didn't read a wiki entry - which I never do, aside from the occasional theory/article page - I'm plausible scum now?

Also, if anyone hops on the HD wagon instead of the Wisdom one, I do think I will largely lose my mind.

[Disturbed_One]

I'd prefer a D_O wagon rather than a HD one.
In fact,
VOTE: Disturbed_One

Remind me again why you think I'm scum? I know why, I just want you to say it again because it'll be funny how ridiculous it will sound.

[Disturbed_One]

If you know why, it's enough. I have no need to convince you to vote yourself anyway.

That's okay, I'd expect scum to OMGUS at least once before they are lynched. I understand.

[Disturbed_One]

Yup, that's exactly what I'm doing.

Vote this guy, folks.

Are you actually admitting to placing an OMGUS vote? Lol. How do you justify that one, Wisdom?

[Disturbed_One]

[Majiffy]'s also not impossible to read, just highly difficult to read. I consider an anti-town playstyle, like the ones Mollie and theslimer3 use, to be an impossible to read playstyle.

> Does all the things you consider anti-town that Mollie does
> Not impossible to read

Righteo.

I don't understand. Elaborate.

We've already established Mollie can be read, so that's old news. So why bring it up?

[Disturbed_One]

Because you're blatantly sucking up to me. Why?

You better explain this one. How is what I said "sucking up"? I know you can be read, I've played in a game where you were busted as scum.

I've only know seen evidence that Mollie can in fact be read.

Or are you seriously trying to compare your play to Mollie's?

[Disturbed_One]

Bad grammar error in last post. Have to fix it.
*now

[Disturbed_One]

Also, @ Majiffy:

Explain why you think Wisdom is town. I think exactly the opposite.

[Disturbed_One]

Technically,

you

were the one comparing my play to Mollie's. And you were sucking up by advocating a lynch on Mollie for reasons that are very much present in my own play, whilst still saying I shouldn't be lynched.

Try reading the thread;

Slimer - I don't see scum motivation in his posts and the majority of his actions. Town motivation easily explains nearly everything, save for a few votes I don't particularly agree with.

I wasn't making a comparison. I was using your play as an example of a difficult player to read. I could have used Thor as an example, but instead I chose to use an example of a player actually playing in this game.

I do not actually agree that your play is similar and am not comparing your play to Mollie's. I am surprised you thought I was.

Only you could have the gall to tell me to read the thread when at least a page or two is formed every time I log on. Not using that as an excuse, just saying.

That said, is that really your best explanation? Come now, I think you can do better than that. That's not at all a very specific explanation. I've seen you go through an entire ISO to attempt to get me mislynched in the game I played with you, yet this is how you explain a town-read? With two sentences and no coherent conclusion?

I'm starting to think it's you that needs to read the thread.

[Disturbed_One]

More responses to come, I've got four pages to catch up on.

[Disturbed_One]

Miscounted, it was only three pages. Basically, all I missed were some more back-and-forths between Wisdom and HD.

Which reminds me. People not reading HD's posts. Go read them. And then do something useful and jump on the Wisdom wagon, because this guy is ridiculously scummy.

He keeps going on and on about how I misrepresented him. I never did anything like that. On the other hand, plenty of my posts have been blatantly misrepped by Wisdom.

Yes, I was for Mollie's PL. So what? If it weren't for the fact that I'm completely sold on lynching Wisdom today, I'd probably still be happy with the Mollie PL. Majiffy isn't really redeeming the slot for me honestly. I'm really not sold on his sappy explanation for why he thinks Wisdom is town.

Though there's no way Wisdom and Majiffy are the scum team. Majiffy would be busing the hell out of Wisdom if that were the case.

Not at all liking mcqueen. I could see Wisdom/mcqueen as the scum team.

[Disturbed_One]

Then vote mcqueen ^^

Why lynch mcqueen when we can lynch a confirmed liar?

[Disturbed_One]

Because we don't have one? You've yet to tell us where I lied.

That's a lie in it of itself (or a statement of complete ignorance; take your pick).

I have stated on multiple occasions that you have misrepresented me and lied about cutting out my question from the post so that you could dodge it.

[Disturbed_One]

Okay, try reading the game then because in the last few pages I discussed this thing in detail with HD. There's no lying there. The only one who keeps misrepping is you.

I haven't misrepresented you once. That's a baseless claim and it will get you nowhere.

[Disturbed_One]

Oh yeah and I wanted to add claiming unreadable as a reason to policy lynch someone is bullshit. Sometimes I wanna lynch lurkers and that's sort of related but not really. D_O I hope you're not still seriously entertaining that idea wrt Mollie.

pedit: Idk. Thinking about it.

Was for it, but now that the slot is a hydra it's not really viable. Even if it weren't a hydra, all I asked for was some meta and zabriel delivered that.

Once again, "unreadable" was poorly phrased on my part. What I meant was that I read Mollie's actions as anti-town, but her actions are consistently anti-town, regardless of alignment. Therefore, I felt that she would be able to disguise her alignment.

[Disturbed_One]

So who else is scum besides Wisdom?

I don't have any reads as strong as the Wisdom one. But fuzzybutternut or mcqueen are good bets.

[Disturbed_One]

Did this guy really just say Wisdom and I are Scum. LOL, you're kidding right? You've just past me in the Stupidest Person in this Game rankings. Good job.

The way I see it, it's either you or fuzzy. Responses like this aren't helping your case, by the way.

[Disturbed_One]

He's fuzzy's replacement though

*facepalm*

I forgot fuzzy replaced. So many players have replaced I've kind of lost track.

[Disturbed_One]

Will not make that mistake again. My apologies. Between the huge growth of posts in this game and the frequent replacements, I lost track.

[Disturbed_One]

@ Riot:

What I didn't like about fuzzy first and foremost was his parked vote. He placed it on Wisdom for RVS reasons and never actually retracted it. He also directly asked several players about their stance on an issue before really formulating his own opinion, which is another red flag for me.

Didn't see much scum-hunting come out of him at all, really.

I don't like mcqueen because of the whole VI self-meta thing. I feel he's over-relying on that and I can see potential scum abuse there.

I don't really see anything remotely pro-town about this slot. What is it you see that I don't?

[Disturbed_One]

Self-voting pisses me off except in very certain circumstances, which are generally limited to scum self-hammers. Self-votes are basically the purview of emotional newbies and scum who want to look like emotional newbies.

@Wisdom - What did you and what do you now think of Fuzzy? How does this impact your view of McQueen?

I've seen town self-vote before, though the way mcqueen goes about doing so seems pretty scummy.

The only time I've ever seen town self-vote is early-game, usually as reaction-fishing. Clearly, we're way beyond the point of that still being effective anymore. It seems more like an attempt to reinforce his meta defense, to me.

His premature claim isn't making his case any stronger, either.

[Disturbed_One]

As for my self-vote... yea I shouldn't have done it, but I hate how every game people attack me as Town, when I always play the same style. It's pointless and gets me pissed off.

Also, if you thought I was joking earlier about the self-vote, you guys could have hammered me for awhile now.
Given it gives Town a pretty big chance to come up big later, with a correct lynch Day 1, I cannot figure out how my refusal to remove my self-vote is scummy, how I can be Scum, when I could have been long lynched by now.

If you still think I'm Scum, lynch me, but that gives Scum a very big advantage, if you do.

--

Wisdom is just a lost needle in a haystack.

D_O is attacking me because he implies from his thoughts I'm scummy. Implies. His thoughts do not make him think I'm scummy, he implies from them. That's terrible.

So if

this

is how you play as town, then explain to me, how do you play as scum? Can you show me another game where you outed yourself as an actual town PR under minimal pressure? I'd also accept a game where you self-vote as a town PR.

Your argument about the self-vote is invalid, because self-voting and inviting a potential hammer is almost always an anti-town play. Town should be doing their best to hunt the scum, not wasting time with a meaningless vote. Doing so is inherently anti-town, there's no reason frustrated scum wouldn't do the same thing, especially if they have the meta you claim to have.

Why should we not think you're scum? What have you done in this game that's pro-town? All I see out of you is baseless arguments, unnecessary attacks of the intelligence levels of other players, and the self-vote. Without a single visible trace of any effort at scum-hunting. If you think I'm wrong, go ahead and try and prove it.

Reasons. Why do you say that about Wisdom? Not that I don't agree, but still, actually try and pose some kind of an argument.

Did that even make sense to you? I'm not even going to address that one, it's not even worth my time.

[Disturbed_One]

UNVOTE: Wisdom
VOTE: mcqueen

[Disturbed_One]

As a comparison with Mollie's play. :neutral:

The thing you're calling Mollie out for is something I frequently do regardless of alignment - insult other players.

I reckon the illiterate should not attempt for the papacy.

Really? I put in a different amount of effort in explaining a town read than I do into getting a player lynched I think is scum? Those things are so similar by their very nature! Say it ain't so!

Also - interesting use of the word mislynch. Was I scum in that game? I

require

an answer to this in your next post.

>Same slot

You really

aren't

reading the game, are you?

You insult other players? I had no idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my argument is actually about how I think Mollie is not adequately explaining her stances on players such as HD, simply calling them "stupid" as her primary argument. While you're as equally into insulting other players, I don't believe you hide behind your insults over your arguments. I've always felt you have very clear arguments (with the exception of this game, though). You insult players, but you do not hide behind those insults to make your points.

Feel to agree or disagree on that, that's just my take on it.

Oh, I'm illiterate, eh? Huh, that's interesting. Last I checked, I've read through every page of this game (some more than once) and I'm actually hunting scum. I reckon you should be doing the same thing, how's that sound?

Yes, you were scum. I'm referring to the newbie game where you and Robo were the scum team. Ring a bell? You posted one of the most in-depth cases I've ever seen on this site in an attempt to mislynch me. I fondly remember you failed in doing so.

That was a mistake and a pretty bad one at that. However, that's already been addressed. I can't but help think you're the one not actually reading the game, seeing as you missed that.

Unless you're just doing everything in your power to be an insufferable curmudgeon, which is definitely not beyond you.

[Disturbed_One]

D_O, you're going to have to find the games on your own, I honestly can't until I'm able to use a computer again.

The self-vote as a Town PR argument is invalid here, as the whole Town is PRs.

If you still think I'm Scum, lynch me, I'm beyond caring at this point.

That's a fair point, what I'm trying to wrap my head around is your premature claim, however. I'd still like to see a game where you prematurely claim as town. PR or not. You have a lot of games, just give the link the next time you can access a PC.

If you don't care, you should replace out.

[Disturbed_One]

I don't feel you've adequately proven that she's hiding her stances behind insults beyond the argument that she is, indeed, using insults.

Tell me whom the scum are, and why.

So your issue with me is that I'm not playing the same way I play as scum. Wouldn't that make me town?

Her logic for HD consisted of "he's an idiot." Not very clear cut reasoning, if you ask me. Then again, you are you. That's probably all the reasoning you need.

Read the thread and you will see who I think is scum and why. You really are lazy this game, aren't you?

I don't really see why you'd be any more or less lazy depending on alignment.

[Disturbed_One]

erm, wrt bold

I said hd's argument was dumb, not him, especially since he had a baseline for play in a game where he lynched me as scum. I dispelled this argument already, which you ignored but only to bring it back up and push it? freaking A, lol

why can we not lynch DO right now

VOTE: DO
-mollie

That doesn't at all address my accusation, actually, or the point behind it.

Instead of actually making arguments, you dismiss arguments and call them "dumb" and use that as your only evidence for their dismissal.

Also, you want to lynch me based on that? You've got to be kidding me.

Explain how I'm "pushing" anything. Am I voting you? No, I'm not. To be fair, I can see the difference between you calling a player dumb and calling an argument dumb. But that difference isn't great enough to seriously accuse me over it.

Your logic doesn't even make sense here. Do you think I'm deliberately misrepresenting you or something?

[Disturbed_One]

And before you claim I'm trying to misrepresent you again, I will actually amend my previous post.

You don't always dismiss arguments in the fashion I've described, but you did do so with HD's arguments.

[Disturbed_One]

Show me quotes regarding 1 and 2. I'm asking you to evince your statements, you don't respond by saying "god ur lazy y dont u go look".

And you made a meta argument in regards to a disparity you perceived. If you don't see why I'd be more or less lazy based on alignment, why bring up the meta argument to begin with?

I might be more inclined to respond in the normal fashion, were I not being condescendingly reminded to read the thread, when that's what I've been fucking doing this whole game.

Regarding Mollie, it's been proven she's readable. I don't really have anything to prove, I'm just explaining how I wasn't sucking up. Perhaps this has put you under the impression that I have a quarrel with Mollie, I do not. Even if her recent vote is terrible, she's not a scum read for me.

You know that I stated fuzzy and mcqueen as scum reads, seeing as you felt it necessary to lecture me. If you want reasoning for that, I won't deny you of it.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4731104

^ That sums up my thoughts about the slot.

The meta argument was really in reply to your snide remark of how you presumed I didn't read the thread. My argument for why I found you scummy was that I felt your reasoning regarding Wisdom didn't seem very genuine. I don't really wish to pursue the point further for now, but that doesn't mean I'm writing you off as town just yet, either.

[Disturbed_One]

wrt the bold

1. erm, no. you just didn't address it. what hd was saying what was scummy about my posting was not beyond his sphere of reference to my actual scumplay. I called that dumb cos he actually has a point of reference.

wrt evething else

2. yes, I want to lynch you.

3. you don't have to place a vote in order to push for a "scumread" later in the game. scum can breadcrumb for later reads and follow the argument for consistency. it is how scum can mask as town. from my perspective, this is what you are doing.

4. my logic makes great sense when you can determine an alignment from their POV. sorry that you have epically failed in this.

I don't know what "wrt" means, if you're looking for a response based on that, you will need to elaborate.

1. If this is a meta issue, I don't normally play by meta. (Though this game has forced me to make some meta arguments.) I don't really understand your point here. I think you're saying you're using your own meta to rebuke HD's point. Do I understand that correctly?

2. Then you are either a completely irrational person or scum. What you're saying doesn't add up, there's no logic behind lynching me based on your reasoning.

3. Prove it.

4. Maybe I have epically failed. But that doesn't make scum.

[Disturbed_One]

If this is going to come down to personal attacks, I don't want to play this game anymore. It's not fun for me. I've had enough of Majiffy's attitude, I don't deserve to be lectured or have my intelligence insulted.

@ Mod: please replace me. I'm sorry to bail on you like so many others, but I just do not feel comfortable playing this game anymore.

[Disturbed_One]

Actually, Prohawk has convinced me.

@ Mod: Please disregard my request for replacement, I have thought about it and I'm willing to stick with this.

[Disturbed_One]

No post forthcoming tonight, I think I need to take a breather. I'll try and post something tomorrow.

[Disturbed_One]

So, I'm a bit confused as to what I'm actually being accused of here. It doesn't help that the hydra is coming at me with two different sets of accusations.

Considering they are occupying one player slot, I think it's only fair that they compile their list of accusations into one post so that I can address it all. I think that's fair.

[Disturbed_One]

Note to self, oppose all hydras in the future.

Sigh, I suppose I'll type up that response then.

[Disturbed_One]

okay well weird. cos I thought you were asking other players if they had meta on me as being readable. and on slimer too.

2. Then you are either a completely irrational person or scum. What you're saying doesn't add up, there's no logic behind lynching me based on your reasoning.

^^^hd partner spotted

3. Prove it.

4. Maybe I have epically failed. But that doesn't make scum.

I love you people.

that was a serious post btw.

Indeed, as I said I do not usually play that way. The only way I did was because my read on you and slimer3 were anti-town, however I determined quickly through the general reaction to both of your posts that they are typical behavior for you andslimer.

But adaptation isn't a scum tell.

As for the rest of your posts, I demand some sort of evidence if you wish for me to respond to them.

As far as I can tell, your case on me is because I supposedly misrepped what you actually call stupid. My apologies, I wasn't aware such an insignificant factor was a scum tell.

Feel free to add any other accusations you want on that. From what I gather, that is pretty much your grand case here.

Right. On to Majiffy.

[Disturbed_One]

I'd be more inclined to not be condescending if you weren't an idiot.

You're retroactively trying to cover up with this. At the time of the sucking-up-in-question, you were still harping on the PL-Mollie-for-insults case.

Didn't seem genuine? I don't recall you saying anything about genuinity before... pretty sure it was "lol that's all? last time when u wer da scumz it was lyke pages to mislynch me!"

By the by, you haven't actually addressed the following disparities in these two situations;
1) You're calling me scum for not doing something I did as scum
2) Your argument about what I should be doing references an attempt to lynch; my situation with Wisdom is merely stating reasons for a

town read

. Thus, they're two wholly different situations entirely.

I don't think you want to pursue the point

because you don't have one

, and you're slowly starting to realize that.

He believes

too

strongly in his really poor logic.

Keeping the first part of of this quoted, because I've got a point to make on that in a second.

As far as the "sucking up" goes, that's not at all what I was doing. Why would I, anyway? Explain what I would have to gain by doing so.

Also, I'd very much like to hear from others players besides the hydra, if they think that what I did looks like "sucking up."

The difference between you and Mollie is that Mollie insults the logic of a player to make her point. You do so just to be a jerk. Mollie's posts generally seem void of content to me.

My main problem with her was that I felt she could use her mannerisms to disguise her alignment. I made a reasonable request and it has been honored. The only person who is "harping" on anything is you, Majiffy, for continuing to question a position that is no longer relevant anymore.

That's where I was going with it, in fact, though you are correct I didn't use the term "genuine". I asked you for your reasoning as to why Wisdom was town, and your response was based not on specific examples but just a general "town motivation explains everything." I didn't find that satisfactory and it certainly didn't seem like a genuine post. Now, I'm not sure what exactly you'd have to gain by pacifying Wisdom, but it does appear that way to me.

I don't think I ever called you scum for that, I just told you to start doing a better job of scum-hunting. Correct me if I'm wrong (and if you think I am, I demand a quote proving it.)

I wasn't going to pursue the point with you, but then I replaced back in and realized that you've been really working on trying to find a way to incriminate me. You did the same thing in the last game I played with you, and I believe this is because you find me to be an easy target. Your statement that you believe me to be an idiot confirms you would think I'm an easy target as scum.

The only difference is you're much lazier than last time, which as I said is not indicative of your alignment in any way. Yet your gameplan is identical to the one you employed that one.

I would also like to respond to the fact you feel that I am an idiot. I'm not actually going to defend that. Because I don't have to. It's not scummy. Just like you being lazy isn't indicative of your alignment, me being an idiot isn't indicative of my alignment either.

I obviously don't believe I'm an idiot, but that's irrelevant. All that matters is you feel that way, so as scum the natural move here would be to go after the easiest target. And if you believe I'm an idiot, than that means I'm an easy target.

I also want to address the last point, because there's no logic behind it. I believe too strongly in my poor logic? That doesn't even make sense. If I'm such an idiot, than I wouldn't be using poor logic to fool anyone. I'd be using poor logic merely because I don't know any better. That's not indicative of my alignment at all.

Majiffy thinks I'm an idiot. Therefore, he also believes my logic to be bad. That's fine. He can believe what he wants. But how does he now say that I'm scum because I believe too much in my logic? I'd understand if I were a player he regarded as being in proper mental faculties and I used poor logic, but according to him I am not. So a poor player using poor logic is not at all scummy.

I don't like Majiffy as a person, but as a player he makes nothing but sense. This stance does not make sense coming from him, he's too reasonable to actually believe I could be scum just based on poor logic.

To be completely clear with everyone else, I don't think I'm an idiot, and I don't think my logic is particularly bad, either.

But it doesn't matter what I think. This is what Majiffy thinks, and what Majiffy is thinking simply does not add up.

UNVOTE: mcqueen
VOTE: BeautyAndTheBest

[Disturbed_One]

UNVOTE: BeautyAndTheBest

You know what, yeah. I'm an idiot. That's my bad, I thought the whole HD thing was directed at me. It's obvious that my case was based on an unintentional misrepresentation of the facts, so my vote here is pointless.

So you think I was buddying with you? That's actually the only reason I asked, just to make sure I understood that clearly.

Will respond to the rest soon.

[Disturbed_One]

Yeah, "unintentional". Thing is, it's not the first time you do this.

It sort of is the first time. The times with you I did not misrepresent you. Try drilling that into your head.

Does anyone else here think I misrepped Wisdom or is that just me? Thanks.

[Disturbed_One]

Keeping me at bay. Why are you asking for scum motivation for buddying? Jesus you're getting desperate.

There's many times I insult the logic of a player to make a point. In fact, a lot of the time that

is

the point.

Because you keep trying to handwave it away, and that's scummy as fuck. "Yes, I did these scummy things, but I'm not doing them anymore, so let's not talk about them!". No.

If I put a lot of effort into trying to get you mislynched before and failed, what makes you think I would think of you as an easy target?

You also missed the meat-and-potatoes of the post you quoted to go off on your idiotic little wall rant.

By the by, you haven't actually addressed the following disparities in these two situations;
1) You're calling me scum for not doing something I did as scum
2) Your argument about what I should be doing references an attempt to lynch; my situation with Wisdom is merely stating reasons for a

town read

. Thus, they're two wholly different situations entirely.

Don't worry, I'll wait.

It's not desperation, I was trying to understand it. I'm an idiot after all, I need help understanding things according to you.

As for buddying, I don't know what to tell you. I did not actually do that, I was not trying to buddy with you, yet merely using you as my example. I could have used Thor as an example. You seemed more relevant an example because you were actually in the game.

Well, I'm using a single game as a reference point. I could be wrong on this, that's definitely a possibility.

I'm handwaving them away because they're not relevant for me anymore. I talk about Mollie and then Mollie votes me because I slightly misrepresent the fact that she calls arguments dumb and not people. It's making me believe that I am indicating I am for a position that I am not, and I don't want to do that. That is the only reason.

If you want to talk about the Mollie PL case, then we'll talk about it. Just as long as it's clear I no longer support that position. I did not have the evidence I needed at the time, but I do now and that's all that matters.

I'll admit that's a good point. One that I had failed to consider, obviously.

I did address (1), perhaps you missed it. I told you I did not believe I actually called you scum for that (at least, before you made that post, anyway). Rather, I told you you should be doing better than you were to explain your reads.

My response to (2) is simply that I find your Wisdom explanation weak. You stated a general "everything has town motivation" and didn't really explain anything at all in my opinion. I found it odd, the comparison to your play in the other game was more meant as a dig. "Come on, Majiffy. You can do better than that." That sort of thing.

[Disturbed_One]

Even if it was "unintentional" that time too, you did.

It wasn't "unintentional", I simply did not misrepresent you.

VOTE: Wisdom

The fact that you keep insisting that I did, when I clearly did not, is scummy. That's just wishy-washy. It's been explained to you more than once and I don't think you're incapable of understanding it. I think you just don't want to understand it.

[Disturbed_One]

Rev - It was all that was necessary. Wisdom isn't in any trouble, why should I put in a lot of effort to explain a town read that isn't even seriously being questioned?

I'm not saying you had to put in a "lot" of effort. Just more than you actually did. It wasn't enough for someone like myself, that directly opposes your position, to actually even debate.

[Disturbed_One]

Either you're stupid like Majiffy says, or you're scum. Choose which.
I have explained why what you did was a misrep. You choose not to understand and keep saying bullshit.
I even give you the doubt that it could be unintentional and yet you still refuse to accept that you were wrong.
At this point I'm really starting to believe you're stupid, unable to read and comprehend, or both.
Or maybe just scum.

That's nice.

I'm not the only one that thinks I didn't misrepresent you. HD mentioned that he agrees on that. On the other hand, I don't recall reading a single post where someone agreed with your opinion that I misrepresented you.

I think you're bullshitting yourself, and it's fairly obvious.

[Disturbed_One]

It's an invitation for you to refute my claims with evidence that he's not town.

I wasn't presented with anything more than "lol das all? 2 bad hez da scumz!"

There wasn't anything to refute, that's what I'm trying to tell you. You basically said, "town motivation explains everything" and little else than that.

It's not like my reasons for voting Wisdom aren't perfectly clear. On the other hand, your reasoning as to why you think he is town is not. It's your reasoning that needs to be elaborated on, not mine.

[Disturbed_One]

Oh HD agreed? It must be true then.

There might be some sarcasm in the above.

Find me someone else that thinks it isn't true and I might actually give a damn.

[Disturbed_One]

@ BeautyAndTheBeast:

I had already given my reasoning in this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p4724244

[Disturbed_One]

There's been about six pages since my last post, I don't really have time to go over all that now. I WILL read the pages soon enough, however, and make a post to whatever I need to respond to.

[Disturbed_One]

It's becoming impossible to catch up on this. I have a meat world commitment that is severely limiting my time. I'm sorry, I just don't have enough time to truly give this game enough of my attention. That's not right for any of you, so I'm going to have to be replaced.

@ Mod: Requesting replacement.

Again, my most sincere apologies for this. My free time has been severely limited lately.