Mini 388: DOOMsville II {Game Over!}

[Patrick]

/comfirm

[Patrick]

Yeah Mert's lack on confirmation is pretty suspicious. Falcone is a likely scumbuddy.

[Patrick]

Vote: Mert

Falcone, who's the guy in the avatar?

[Patrick]

My take on it is that so far, Fridays play has not been helpful and the suggestion that random votes aren't helpful shows some lack of knowledge, but I've yet to decide whether this is newbtown or newbscum.

I think the point of the quote by Falcome there is that Turbovolver changed his random vote, then Ozy did, but Shadowlurker only mentioned Ozy and voted him, seemingly ignoring the fact that Turbovolver did the same thing. I think Turbovolver is always kind of vote hoppy though I've never played with him. I was an avid reader of Leper Mafia 8)

[Patrick]

Shadowlurker, you may not find Falcone's points to be very strong, but they are at least an attempt to start things going. At the start of the game, ppl need a tiny thing to talk about which becomes bigger later. Falcone's posts so far have been more helpful than yours.

[Patrick]

Not getting why that is a false dilemna.

[Patrick]

Yeah I know the definition of false dilemna. I just don't see how that is one. Maybe at worst you could say there are other possibilities that are slightly different, but I don't see any intentional deceit by Falcone, and in fact I think it's most likely to be a mixture of the two he gave. If Shadowlurker did have some other reason, then why not give it to us there and then?

[Patrick]

It's just how Rosso plays. I won't ask what a bad coin is. The reason is that I already know.

Got my eye on both kilmenator and geraintm.

[Patrick]

Very eloquent.

[Patrick]

okay,so i can understand partly of why you want to keep an eye on kilmenator,but why geraintm?he has hardly been posting in this game,and he only had 1 suspicion during this whoel game(i think...),and now you want to "keep an eye on him"?so please explain to me why so sudden...

I can more easily see his posts in a scum context than a pro town context. It's not a strong thing, as you will gather by the fact I haven't FoSed him or anything, but I'm keeping an eye on him.

[Patrick]

A bad coin is like a FoS.

[Patrick]

Why's that then kilmenator? Do you think scum are more likely to forget who they voted before? Or do you think Shadowlurker was deliberately lying and hoping nobody would notice?

[Patrick]

I find it strange that you think scum would lie about something that is so easily disproven. That's addressed to kilmenator.

[Patrick]

Hmm well actually I would say most of the silliness has been yours so far Shadowlurker. It's not particularly scummy, and it may even have helped in seeing how some of the players reacted to it, but you're playing a rather sloppy game. The main thing I've gleaned for it is that I think kilmenator was just looking for a reason to vote you. In fact I think i'll

unvote, vote: kilmenator

It's better than a random vote.

[Patrick]

Well, having played with Shadowlurker before and read Leper mafia, I noticed his tendency to do daft things. If you vote Shadowlurker, you're saying that you think scum are more likely to lie about where they had a vote than a pro town player, which I don't think is true. Scum do lie, but I don't see why they would about something so obvious. His explanation post was just weird, like he didn't want to admit he was wrong. I don't see what's scummy about it though.

I voted kilmenator because it's very easy to say 'oh he's acting weird, let's vote him' without really looking at it any deeper. I don't see how WIFOM comes into it, so I think i'll need that explaining.

[Patrick]

Now you're asking me to read his mind and understand how he works which I unfortunately can't do. All I can say is I don't find it scummy, and that behaviour like that can often make you the target for superficially thought out or oppotunistic votes. Remember we're not here to lynch ppl who play badly though.

[Patrick]

I think the above part of kilmenators last post shows why Shadowlurker has been all over the place. Confirming a vote on kilmenator when you're not actually voting her is just silly, and confusing.

My view on the metagaming is that of course, you don't use it as a catchall defence for anything scummy done by a person, but what I'm saying is, having seen Shadowlurker doing daft things (like claiming kamikaze as townie in leper), I can see him doing what he did as town. I agree that it's confusing and pretty ridiculous the way he is trying to defend it, but I don't see it as a scum tell.

[Patrick]

Umm.. no, I was simply doing random things to get discussion going. Apparently, people have been skimming as no one noticed the discrepency between my votes until I pointed it out myself.

What, so now you're saying you were deliberately acting strange/random just to get ppl talking? After you've spent most of your recent posts trying to defend your actions and saying there was nothing strange?

Can we stop the silliness now? On that note, we're also well past the random voting and half-assed stage. Plus, friday still has a lot of explaining to do.

Sounds like you actually wanted attention away from what you'd done. Now you say it was done in the name of conversation. I have to say I don't like that.
Anyway why do you say nobody noticed the discrepancy in your votes until you pointed it out? Didn't Ozy point it out?

[Patrick]

Well his post said 'can we stop the silliness now?' That implies that he thinks the whole thing against him is BS. And earlier he voted Falcone for 'creating masterpieces out of shit'. Now he's saying he was deliberately provoking the attention by doing silly/weird things. Why was he trying to push ppl away from him if that was the case?

It seems like he's changing his defence from 'I'm not doing anything strange' to 'I was deliberately acting strange to start discussion'.

[Patrick]

If the stuff you did earlier was to generate discussion, then I don't know why you were accusing ppl of nitpicking you. Your first vote on Ozy for vote hopping was questioned by Falcone, and you voted him for apparently making masterpieces out of shit. You strangely accused Falcone of setting up a false dilemna, you made that weird post which contained only quotes and w.t.f. and you confirmed a vote on kilmenator when you weren't voting her. All this you say to create discussion. But when it did create discussion, you told ppl to back off, stop nitpicking etc. I don't really get it.

The metagaming argument I assume you're targetting at Falcone since I don't think your play in Leper Mafia makes you look bad here.

[Patrick]

Maybe my above post fleshes it out a bit more. I don't think I'm misrepresenting the situation at all. I find it interesting that you seem to be keenly defending Shadowlurker, although to some extent I can see how his kind of behaviour could make him a ridiculously easy target for scum votes if he's pro town.

He never said that though. He hasn't said anything about the 'level of weirdness' of his play, and he hasn't really done much defense other than ask snide questions and/or request that people clarify their attacks on him.

Well ok, he hasn't said anything about his weirdness of his play so I suppose it's grammatically wrong to put it in ' '. Nevertheless I'm trying to find out the reasons for what he's done so far, because it wouldn't be the first time I've seen ppl tring to hide under the I was just generating discussion defence.

[Patrick]

Patrick, ShadowLurker is right. This argument is going nowhere.

eh since when did that deter you from arguing about something

[Patrick]

*stumbles in*

[Patrick]

Welcome MBL!
I am rereading this one in the next hour or so because I've pretty much forgotten this game.

[Patrick]

Damnit. I don't think I've ever had such a fruitless reread as that. I did notice friday going rather hard at Rosso, with alot of his posts just reminding us that Rosso had been inactive or lurking. I can't swear to it but I don't think friday ever mentioned any of the other non posters, such as bird or Mert. Why only Rosso?

[Patrick]

reason?

[Patrick]

Deadline on christmas day eh? I think what would be much better than a deadline is if you replaced the rest of the inactives; bird, Mert and Rosso being the ones that spring to mind.

[Patrick]

She's in another game which contains myself and chess. That would be where chess came into it. Judging by something she recently posted in that game, I would say she just confused them.

[Patrick]

Unvote, Vote: Ozymandius

Yeah didn't really like the FoS nor the justification that came after. She seemed confused between her games or not having enough time, so I'm not too sure why you would FoS her for it with the promise of removing it when she gathers her thoughts. It looked like you were trying to do something while being very noncommital about it.

Pleased to see the mafia GF dead, though modkilling lurkers is somewhat against the spirit of the game. Also

FoS MBL

because I've only played with him once before and he lurked hardcore through that game as he doing now. He was scum.

[Patrick]

I went back through Mert's posts, but there aren't many clues to be gained there, he simply didn't post enough. I think Rosso is very slightly more pro town looking because Mert was trying to use his playstyle against him, and I saw he was joined in this by friday. Of course, it could have been a pre arranged distancing act, but I got more the vibe that Mert was just looking for a comfortable first target.
I agree with what Adele just said.

[Patrick]

I think we probably should get the deadline changed or gotten rid of. Part or me says Turbo is making a mountain out of a molehill, but the other part says we really don't have too much to look at right now anyway with so few ppl saying anything. I think we might as well hear Ozy's suspect list.

Also, I don't like the vote on Rosso. I can't really see the basis for it.

[Patrick]

How would bird have some info on MBL? The game started in day.

[Patrick]

He's not posting anywhere though.

[Patrick]

There was never a false dilemna in my opinion.

[Patrick]

The deadline hits in about 50 hours. We need to decide whether we're extending it, otherwise Ozy needs to be roleclaiming. The last thing I want is for him to claim some flying pumpkin type role 4 hours before the deadline hits.

As for my last two one liners, this game is boring me to tears. I don't think I could be particularly accused of flying under the radar this game.

[Patrick]

Not really. If he has a powerole, he would try and keep it hidden if at all possible, not reveal it the minute he has a few votes. As with a newbie game, a claim should be the last line of defence so to speak.

[Patrick]

Mod, I second the request for a deadline extension.

[Patrick]

I have had a few vibes of geraintm defending Ozy, which I'll look back on tonight when I get in. I've noticed that when scum are under pressure they often become the world's biggest lurker hunters. Not that geraintm himself is under any pressure, but he is indirectly defending Ozy by attacking the inactives/lurkers.

[Patrick]

So geraintm, at this point you would lynch Rosso Carne instead of Ozy, assuming you had the power to choose? Is there something that sticks out about Rosso, that sets him apart from the other ppl not posting?

[Patrick]

His point about a 'fair' lynch would apply to anyone, he doesn't want to lynch whilst players are inactive. It's not Ozymandius-specific.

How do you know that? Yes, if he's a genuinely concerned townie it would apply to anyone. If he's scum with Ozy, I imagine it only applies to Ozy.

[Patrick]

Patrick, as we have both just been in Newbie 289 my postings in this game are very consistent in my actions back there. Look at post 61 from that game. And i have my vote on Rosso because i placed it there for a reason, and i tend to neeed a good reason to move my votes. I now have a reason vote patrick

The reason for that vote switch is what exactly? And I still don't see what was pressing to vote Rosso Carne. He's pretty obviously been away from the site for ages now.

[Patrick]

i also dont like that patrick doesnt find it a big deal to put a vote on him and uses the logic that if ozy had a power role he would have told us already.

Actually I said the opposite:

Not really. If he has a powerole, he would try and keep it hidden if at all possible, not reveal it the minute he has a few votes. As with a newbie game, a claim should be the last line of defence so to speak.

[Patrick]

you asked for the reason or the vote switch, it was because i felt you deliberately tried to make it out like i was defending Ozy when a) i don't think i ever was, b) you should know from previous games between us that i dislike strongly people getting lynched when there are inactive players and that situation is exactly what is going on at the moment here.

I don't think you mounted a strong defence of Ozy. I said I thought you were indirectly defending him by going after lurkers. As for the single game we have played together, in that case you pretty much were trying to stop conversation until the two stragglers arrived. I can see a similarity to what you did there and what you are doing here, that is a good point. I still think you would use that as scum to look out for a scumbuddy, though I don't think I've ever read a game with you as scum. Rosso needs replacing.

[Patrick]

I can usually smell the difference between

scum

legitimately suspecting me and scum trying to misdirect attention away from their partners.

lol

[Patrick]

It says Mafia Scum in the symbol font. Add me to the list of ppl who want a claim.

[Patrick]

Unlynchable townie is a rare role. I can't particularly see scum claiming it, because it is usually going to be tested at some point. I highly doubt Ozy would claim it in this situation if he wasn't unlynchable. He could be unlynchable scum I suppose, but that's bastardmoddery and unlikely.

It is probably still worth testing. If Ozy survives, I would call him pretty much confirmed.

[Patrick]

I'm confirmed innocent, because my role PM says I'm pro town.

Seriously though, it's good to see no casualities, but I'm not sure we need poweroles to come out just yet. A cop with a guilty should at some point today, but otherwise I'd say its up for discussion. I would call Ozy a near confirmed innocent. I've only seen one example of unlynchable scum, and that was one shot (and bastard moddery IMO). I'll need to refresh my memory on this game, which I can't do immediately, but will soon.

[Patrick]

Do you MBL. Did you also note that I said I will need to refresh my memory on the game (i.e. read back) before I give my suspicions? I only came up and said a few obvious things that came to mind. I find it odd myself that you haven't made any comments on the makeup of the Ozy lynch. You said you wanted accusations to start flying and you've said that you've looked over it, so why not start the ball rolling yourself?

As for kilmenator wanting MBL to claim, it sounds premature. I would like kilm to explain.

[Patrick]

I don't think we need MBL to claim at this point.
I agree about ozy and kilmenator being unlikely scum; Ozy is unlynchable and kilmenator has given me some townish vibes.

Turbo may well be onto something with Shadowlurker and Adele. I didn't much like Adele's last post, which seemed like a pretty big overreaction just to say something that had been said several times already. And she has been pretty much only on Ozy so far. I can understand sentiments like wanting a claim/defence in good time, and not wanting to have to no lynch, but I still didn't see much of Adele looking out for possible other scum yesterday.

Shadowlurker has been a bit lower than normal on the content, often just taking small potshots at ppl. I wasn't too overjoyed with his posts 389-390 either.

I am unsure whether Shadowlurker and Adele could be scum together due to the small tiff early on between Shadow and Falcone. It could have been distancing though.

We need to hear from Norinel I think, and one or two others who haven't checked in yet.

[Patrick]

Well, only Shadowlurker as far as I can tell. And I have no idea why.

[Patrick]

Shadowlurker please explain why you think we should be mass claiming.

[Patrick]

Sounds pretty powerful whatever it is.

[Patrick]

Not really up to me is it. Your choice if you think it's best.

[Patrick]

Makes sense. Does your pm give any indication of sanity though? Always have to look out for that in minis.

[Patrick]

The first mini run by MM contained both a sane and insane cop, with a load of millers to boot. I don't think we can discount sanity issues. If you are a sane day cop then we're obv in a very strong position, especially with the GF gone.

[Patrick]

I'm talking about mini 333 Street Racing Mafia.

[Patrick]

We should not rush into a massclaim. Looking at how the claims are going, and looking at the previous Doomsville game, I would be prepared to bet that everyone has a powerole of some sort. Getting a load of claims out there will create a bit of a mess. The other problem is that any elaborate plans we put together may be messed up if the mafia have certain abilities too (which seems quite likely to me if we really are all non vanilla). For example, say we all claim, and a doc claim is part of that. If the mafia have a roleblocker, all they would need to do tonight is block the doc and kill Shadowlurker. And we've lost our daycop without any real benefit.

My thinking is that kilmenator and Shadowlurker are probably town, as MBL said, down to enthusiasm alone. I'm pretty sure scum would not be falling over themselves to come out and give a fakeclaim, unless they thought they had an absolutely amazing one. But in this case they seem enthusiastic to come out and break the game wide open for the town.

I'm thinking that possibly if another cop exists they should come out, with everyone's consent. If one does come out, we would know that one of the cops is likely not sane, and we could work on sorting which one is. If no other cop comes out then Shadowlurker is likely sane.

And about lynching Ozy, well I agree if we planned to no lynch then that would be the way to do it (rules out Ozy being one shot unlynchable scum), but it's not clear that we should be doing that at all yet.

[Patrick]

Lynching him, or attempting to confirms him even more.

[Patrick]

lol.. don't worry. I don't know why klebian is scum either.
I still would like ppl to comment on whether or not a second cop should come out if there is one. I would like to confirm Shadowlurker's sanity. If we can do that, then we're virtually there unless the doc falls tonight.

[Patrick]

I've never seen a game that contained only one cop where that cop wasn't sane.

[Patrick]

Adele, who do you suspect?

[Patrick]

Yeah, all that is true about klebian, though I can't say it surprises me. However, we do need klebian give us some substancial suspicions now.

[Patrick]

What do you mean it doesn't surprise you? Does he have a habit of not contributing as town or something?

Pretty much regardless of alignment from what I've seen. I think he's more likely scum than alot of ppl, but I'll reserve judgement until he gives some suspicions.

[Patrick]

Yeah, all that is true about klebian, though I can't say it surprises me. However, we do need klebian give us some substancial suspicions now.

I might be misunderstanding this, but Pat seems to be saying that there's a case on klebian, so klebian needs to say who he finds suspicious. I'd've thought Klebian should be defending himself, not looking for people to accuse. Requests for people to post lists of who they do and don't trust, ostensibly for later examination, smack (very vaguely) of a distraction technique, maybe to gloss over a scum who's throwing out tells. That's what we should be looking at, and for.

I think you are misunderstanding it. What Turbo is saying about klebian is true. However, in my experience with klebian, it's nothing unusual. He seems to play that way as scum and town. I think he needs to give his suspicions now and reasons why, which he seems to be working on. I really don't get how you could possibly decide this is a distraction technique. Are you saying it's wrong to ask for his suspicions? It feels like you're trying to pull something out of thin air here.

[Patrick]

Turbo was there.

I'm not saying klebian has to give his thoughts in list form. Whatever works for him I suppose. I usually only do a complete every player list in a 7 player game, and not always then.

[Patrick]

Patrick then said this: "If you vote Shadowlurker, you're saying that you think scum are more likely to lie about where they had a vote than a pro town player, which I don't think is true." This statement really seems like he's trying to make people not vote SL. He then says "All I can say is I don't find it scummy, and that behaviour like that can often make you the target for superficially thought out or oppotunistic votes." :Badposting:

Please explain why that is a bad posting?

Patrick then has a reread and calls it fruitless. Personally, my reread up to that point has shown a lot of things. I believe his reread was made with a fairly biased point of view.

Please elaborate on this too.

[Patrick]

Yeah, but we need generic contributions, not just, "Oh, I suspect X, I guess, the most, then Y". The analysis he's doing atm looks good to me, if it keeps up.

I feel I have to disagree. The analysis he's doing is partly a summary of the game and partly using logic that doesn't seem to make sense.

[Patrick]

I stand by my comment. I don't for a second believe scum is more likely to confirm a vote on someone they're not voting than town. Scum do lie, but I don't see why they would lie about something so easily checked. He just attracted a load of attention to himself, and in my opinion, some oppotunistic votes.

[Patrick]

wtf?
go town...

[Patrick]

k, I remember we won this one

[Patrick]

Basically the town didn't play very well. MBL should definitely have been lynched on day 3. No clue what the kilmenator lynch was all about.