Player Slot and Game Census

[zoraster]

anyway, what i'm saying is the waivers should be available on a MORE demanding basis than normal, not less. These mods that receive a waiver should have proven themselves more than those that go through the ordinarily two minis situation. It shouldn't just be "run a mini, run a couple of micros, you're in" but rather it should be done on a case-by-case basis where things such as time on the site, number of games run, quality of those games, quality of concept, experienced mod backup, etc. can be taken into account. If anything, I'd feel more confident in a mod that meets those requirements than I do with someone who simply put in their time to do two minis/opens.

This expands our mod pool without diluting it. Because there is nothing particularly special about running a second 11 player open game that would weed out bad mods.

[LlamaFluff]

It shouldn't just be "run a mini, run a couple of micros, you're in" but rather it should be done on a case-by-case basis where things such as time on the site, number of games run, quality of those games, quality of concept, experienced mod backup, etc. can be taken into account.

To an extent its what are the rules. If a mod has problems, I put a lot more in the form of requirements in games and on the backups. There are even a few who have ran games somewhat recently that im probably NOT going to let run games again in the near future, but there does have to be a "minimum done" type thing. I still think, even as a player and not a LM, that I have more trust in nameless mod that ran a 13P normal and 13P theme over a nameless mod who ran six 7P micros if im joining a large game.

There are some things though that are hard to quantify though like quality of game/concept. Its more of "being able to run games without complaints" than anything else. If a mod chooses a bad theme, they will pay the price for it by the game not filling, not having a good player list, being hard to maintain, etc. Its not really possible though to figure out what makes a good and bad game before it starts though as there have been games I thought would work that just struggled.

[TheButtonmen]

I still think, even as a player and not a LM, that I have more trust in nameless mod that ran a 13P normal and 13P theme over a nameless mod who ran six 7P micros if im joining a large game.

As a random counter example I'd trust a mod who'd run six games without an issues more then one who ran two. The actual act of moding a game is nearly identical regardless of what type or size of game it is, it's dealing with the random flukes which occur that is the really hard bit once you have the rountine down to handle VC's, prods and replacements in a timely manner. Also micro is probably a bad example to use as a comparision for anything simply because it's the most diverse queue (games could be open, normal or theme).

[LlamaFluff]

I still think, even as a player and not a LM, that I have more trust in nameless mod that ran a 13P normal and 13P theme over a nameless mod who ran six 7P micros if im joining a large game.

As a random counter example I'd trust a mod who'd run six games without an issues more then one who ran two.

Well maybe its just me... but running a 17P LT takes noticeably more time than it does to run a 11P normal just because more is going on.

Think of it you are hiring someone for a job, candidate A has been the lead on a bunch of contracts worth under a million dollars. Cadidate B has been head of a third as many contracts, but they were all worth $1-5M. If you are hiring one of them to do a $10M job, who would you pick?

[zoraster]

I think that running a large game is in some ways harder: keeping up to date with vote counts, managing any complicated interactions, more chances for interpersonal conflict, often a much longer timeline (I don't think any of my four micros have lasted more than a month). But in some ways large games are more forgiving. If you get balance wrong in a 9 or 13p game, it causes the game to go bad without much chance for recovery. In a large game, there's a little more cushion.

Regardless, I don't think we should remove requirements completely. I think requiring at least one mini-normal should be required for a waiver. Beyond that, I think the criteria that a listmod could use for their discretion would work pretty well. It should be much harder to get in this way than the normal two minis and you're good to go, but it allows mods that aren't just trying to ride the train to large themeville to mod a large theme if they've shown promise.

[popsofctown]

Not that this would ever happen

But I've always thought it'd be cool if each player got a vote for each game they played in, and then they could cast their vote to push mods ahead of less-voted mods in the modding queue so their would be more popular mods more often. Or something more player centric then the usual way of things.

[Zoidberg]

Well maybe its just me... but running a 17P LT takes noticeably more time than it does to run a 11P normal just because more is going on.

Sure, but does it take more

skill

to run a 17P theme than an 11P theme? Time is just... time. Even an idiot should be able to understand that more players = larger time commitment.

Think of it you are hiring someone for a job, candidate A has been the lead on a bunch of contracts worth under a million dollars. Cadidate B has been head of a third as many contracts, but they were all worth $1-5M. If you are hiring one of them to do a $10M job, who would you pick?

That analogy is only congruous with your previous statement if time invested is directly proportional to success rate in higher-value contracts.

[RichardGHP]

Well maybe its just me... but running a 17P LT takes noticeably more time than it does to run a 11P normal just because more is going on.

Sure, but does it take more

skill

to run a 17P theme than an 11P theme?

Yes. More players to manage, more actions to resolve, more chance for error.

(assuming that you have a similar distribution of scum, PRs, VTs etc)

[Zoidberg]

Okay but I think skill and time investment are two different qualities in a mod.

[RichardGHP]

Okay but I think skill and time investment are two different qualities in a mod.

That's true. I'm sure there have been larges that were over in weeks and minis that were over in several months. But regardless of the time invested, a larger game is generally going to require more skill to run for the reasons I outlined previously.

[Zoidberg]

Okay but I think skill and time investment are two different qualities in a mod.

That's true. I'm sure there have been larges that were over in weeks and minis that were over in several months. But regardless of the time invested, a larger game is generally going to require more skill to run for the reasons I outlined previously.

I disagree. Imagine a 25p Large Normal. All the roles are pretty standard, and if a weird situation somehow came up you could just refer to the Natural Action Resolution chart on the wiki for guidance. In Normals there's no weird vote-the-moderator shenanigans going on, no post restrictions, everyone's sane, etc.

Whereas even a 11p mini theme could have some kind of fucked-up mechanic in it could give rise to some hard-to-reconcile situations. It's pretty hard to test ALL the corner cases, after all.

So while I think that large games require a great deal of

time

and

attention

, I don't think that the size of the game is necessarily related to the

difficulty

of modding that game.

[One Direction]

I suppose it depends on what you find difficult at modding. Some people are just bad at putting time/attention into a game and kind of lax mods on that front. I kinda agree with zoidberg in general, though.

[Zoidberg]

<3

[Faraday]

Well I suppose I should say boiling it down to simply skill is a little simplistic since there are certain skills that most good mods possess but not everyone is good at everything. Actually yours is much more simple so maybe skill is sufficent.

I mean I think running a large simple open like picking simplicity isn't very taxing in terms of interactions or anything but they can go on kinda long at times.

[Bumi]

Do you guys think making the games faster would help alleviate the problem of less players? It might make games more attractive and engaging.

[Mr. Flay]

Considering posting rates, they're about as fast as they can go right now (posting is way up, deadlines are down) with our site style of play.

[callforjudgement]

Several players, like me, dislike fast games and refuse to play in them.

I mean, that's why I'm here rather than on some other site.

[Timeater]

Fast games own. My next micro will have 24 hour days.

[callforjudgement]

@Timeater: We were chaining 24 hour days in Marketplace Mafia recently because town got a bonus for short days.

It was very exhausting, and rather messed with my real-life schedules to some extent.

[Bumi]

By faster I meant week long Days and 2 day long nights.

[Mehdi2277]

Some games do that currently. Most of zor's micros use that day length. I'll be going with 10 days for my mini soon (except day 1 with two weeks). Currently unless the game is large you're likely to get 2 weeks, but less does occur.

As for nights 48-72 hours is what most games currently have. Depends on the mod which is used.

[Bumi]

I see.

I'm used to week long days.

I get bored if it is any longer.

[LlamaFluff]

I see.

I'm used to week long days.

I get bored if it is any longer.

Most players dont though, I fall into the camp where I would never play a one week game, as do most players who work so really only have small windows of access. There is no rule a LT cant be ran at that pace, I think normal floor is about one week days before its considered altered.

Normal days are 14-21, it tends to be trending towards 14 at this point which is a decent number, but going too far off that will put off a large number of players.

[quadz08]

If you want games that size, Bumi, you'll want to try the Micro queue. Most game days there are between 7-10 days.

[Bumi]

I don't really like small games I am coming to realize.

I'll keep that in mind when I am looking for another game.