Player Slot and Game Census

[Zoidberg]

Eh, my view is that (perhaps excepting Bastard games), a game that is fun for the Mod has a much better chance of being fun for the players.

This is true. However, can you say for certain that modding a mini normal or open

won't

be fun for you? Observe:

Normal =/= boring.
Theme =/= fun.

I know I'm not interested at all in modding an open game. Normals would be okay, but I had avoided that queue for expediency.

ANYWAYS.... we drifted off the point, I think.

I put my 2 cents in to add credence to the idea that the extremely long backlog in the open/mini normal queues is preventing people from running theme games, which was a theory proposed by someone in this thread.

Once you understand this, you will be almost golden.

Your extreme condescension is noted.

[Cheery Dog]

The Mini Normal queue doesn't function in straight sequence. Get your game reviewed ASAP (Papa Zito provides you what's needed for that) and you will probably wait less than three months.

Not really that much difference between the two, I'm next to start signups there and I think that means I'll be modding 2 and a half months after I inned. (though had I mine been balanced the instant I sent it through there would have been a small chance of it being modded quickly)

If it doesn't fill until the new year then it'll be over 3 months.

Opens generally fill quicker due to lower number of players required I believe. Though the only way to fully check which one is moving faster is to have 2 people in to the different queues on the same date.

[RichardGHP]

You seem to only want to run themes because you think they will be more fun for you. There is no evidence to suggest that that will actually be the case. Conversely, there is no evidence to suggest that just because a game is normal, it will be boring. The modding guide on our wiki goes more in-depth about this.

Edit: I didn't intend to come off as condescending, not in the slightest. I wish you well with your modding career and look forward to eventually seeing the large theme you speak of. But the modding community usually gets fed up when someone new comes in and says they know better than us.

[Zoidberg]

I didn't intend to come off as condescending.

Sure you didn't.

[RichardGHP]

I didn't intend to come off as condescending.

Sure you didn't.

I'll say it again: It was not my intention to sound condescending. Insisting otherwise makes you seem awfully conceited.

[Zoidberg]

And talking down to me while implying I don't understand that normal != boring, and that "once I understand these very simple concepts I'll be golden" makes you seem like a prick.

[RichardGHP]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of it. If you want to actually resume debating site policy, let me know. Otherwise, see you.

[Zoidberg]

I had no desire to debate site policy in the first place. I merely wanted to add my 2 cents.

I put my 2 cents in to add credence to the idea that the extremely long backlog in the open/mini normal queues is preventing people from running theme games, which was a theory proposed by someone in this thread.

[Mr. Flay]

Part of the wait is to file the edges off of impatient newbies, in fact. Impatience leads to game mistakes.

[zoraster]

I wouldn't add length alive as a way to get experience. Making every player a part survivor if they want to mod quicker isn't a good idea (that and I'd say being night killed early is better then being lynched in lylo).

I think you've misunderstood what they're saying. It's not time alive in the games. It's time since they joined the site (or from the time they first started a game).

[zoraster]

also, any chance we can get this discussion split off from the thread? It's not that I dont' think it's a good one. Just probably deserves its own thread.

[Faraday]

I think the requirement should be more along the lines of playing games actually run in that queue. Like, if you've only ever played newbies and theme games, you probably won't have a good idea of what normal roles are.

I don't agree. I might kinda wonder why you're running a normal if you only play themes but w/e.

One year for a LT seems too long to me. Nine months?

I thought that initially. But how long does it take under the current requirements? It probably depends which way you want to go. But 3 months for Mini Normal, 2-3 months in the queue. 2 months running it? It seems like it'd almost take a year anyway by the time you run a second game.

[TheButtonmen]

also, any chance we can get this discussion split off from the thread? It's not that I dont' think it's a good one. Just probably deserves its own thread.

Yeah sorry I really just sort of hijacked it.

[zoraster]

also, any chance we can get this discussion split off from the thread? It's not that I dont' think it's a good one. Just probably deserves its own thread.

Yeah sorry I really just sort of hijacked it.

no no, the thread was designed to spark discussion, so it's not a hijack at all. Just at certain point, it grows into something that probably deserves its own thread on the discussion and keeps this one a little cleaner.

[Xalxe]

Don't think of it as a 'throwaway game'. Think of it as experience and a pool of players (and spectators! Don't underestimate the number of people reading games you mod) that you want to nurture so you can get them to come back. Satisfied players are the best publicity for your future games.

*skips the last page*

Tierce is right. I've run (I think) two opens and a Micro. Do you know how many people played in my first two games who were like "YES XALXE MICRO MUST IN?"

This is where you build the

cult

following, by doing the "boring" games well.

[quadz08]

Zor, we need more regular data points to make something like this truly meaningful. There's too much potential for seasonal fluctuation / gamestart and end fluctuation / etc.

I'm willing to help you gather data on a more regular basis, if you'd like.

I just want to reiterate this before we start discussing changes being made to our mod rules, etc. There is not enough information in this dataset to determine what it actually means.

[zoraster]

Well, I mean ideally I'd have the info from the past 5 years on a daily, weekly or monthly basis and could chart it. But I don't. Yes, we could continue to do this and try to keep it regularly updated. That's fine. But that'll take how long to convince some people? How long would it take to establish what a true seasonal affect is? three years? Is that something we really want to wait on?

I think it would be foolish, however, to think that the data shows nothing significant. It's clear we have fewer player slots active this year than we did the year before, seasonal affects be damned. The question of what's the cause of that is one that may be harder to answer. Maybe more data is needed, but I think there's a question between which is more likely to cause harm: action or inaction.

I don't think we're at a crisis point or anything right now. It may just be that we peaked in 2010/2011 for a variety of reasons, and no matter what we do we're never going back. We have far more games going on now than we did in 2005, for example, and the site was just fine then. But I think we probably should address problems as we see them rather than wring our hands and find reasons nothing should change ever because we don't have definitive data.

[quadz08]

That's a fair point. I'd like to set up a regular (monthly?) data-gathering system regardless of whether or not changes are made now; are you interested?

I personally think that Large games in general have undergone a loss of popularity in recent months. Post quantity + game size has reached a tipping point where people are simply uninterested in playing huge games, regardless of flavor / mechanics. The only really huge games that still fill quickly are the ones that are very very big news (see Gay Mafia II, for example). Look at Mafiastuck, by Gorrad and I, or Politics Mafia, by Haylen and Jordan, for examples of very large games that took just ages to fill. People are realizing that with post quantity being what it is, a game with >20ish (threshold depends on the person, of course) just isn't worth the amount of reading that goes into it.

The point is that I don't think there's an undue lack of mods in the large theme queue; I think there's a lack of both mods and interested (and qualified, for those with experience requirements) players in the large theme.

[zoraster]

that would be more convincing if there were a backlog of moderators waiting to run a large game. Still, you don't have to convince me that moderators have generally gone their own way regardless of what they think players want (resulting in 30+ player games for little reason other than a desire for the epic).

But that doesn't mean there isn't an appetite not being satisfied given that even with those types of games, we have zero games currently in sign ups for large themes at the moment. If mods were really being terrible and there WASN'T a problem of a lack of mods, then we'd have a backlog.

[quadz08]

What I'm trying to say is that I think that both things are happening at once: players don't want to play large themes, and not a lot of mods are running them. This is actually the opposite of a problem.

[Mr. Flay]

I think I agree with quadz, given the data we have available. If there were a shortage of players, we'd be seeing games cancelled. If anything there MIGHT be a shortage of willing mods, but it's hard to say right now (I haven't run anything since the Rollback, but that's because of time, not inclination).

That said, I can definitely sympathize with zoraster; we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. [cue discussion on automating signups and mining data that way]

[zoraster]

And what I'm saying is that I think the evidence more clearly points toward not enough mods at the moment because there are ZERO games in sign ups right now. Yes, maybe some mods are scared off by the slow filling games, but right now a player doesn't really have the ability to choose a large theme. I'd rather have players given the choice rather than mods.

In other words, I think that having a short to medium queue for mods (say in the 2 week to 2 month range) is probably a good thing for the site as it means at the very least we're providing a steady diet of games for players. But having an inconsistent supply side is less good.

As the supply goes up, our ability to establish quality control on mods goes up too. As supply goes down, we should want to increase supply even at the expense of "quality," though there is a limit to this (you don't want games that actively drive players away after they finish).

Note that this is completely in keeping with what I have said all along while being the OPPOSITE of what I was arguing in the past. When queues were long, I argued for a more meritocratic approach such as requiring a certain % of pre-ins, shortening the time that a large theme could fill, etc.

I think there's an argument that you don't want to fiddle with things too hastily. But if the large themes keep this way, I see no reason we shouldn't attempt to get a steadier diet of games going in the large theme queue.

[nhammen]

Trust me, just suck it up and wait your turn. You will come out the better mod for it, I guarantee you.

Doubt it. I've run hundreds of games in real life and 3 or 4 on other forums.

Waiting 3 months doesn't magically make you a better mod because it's 3 months of waiting, not 3 months of modding.

Running an open game will only add to my experience by an insignificant amount.

Yes, but that's you. These alternate requirements will let in people who have never modded anything anywhere, and allow their first game to be a Large Theme. This is a BAD IDEA. I know that my first modding experience helped me greatly. In my opinion, the current requirements work just fine, and in fact are needed.

Yeah but the queue for Normals is like twice as long, or at least it was when I checked last. I don't want to wait until July to run my first game.

If your game is very normal, you usually get in front of people who take forever to get their borderline normal games reviewed. I only had to wait a month and a half.

[nhammen]

And what I'm saying is that I think the evidence more clearly points toward not enough mods at the moment because there are ZERO games in sign ups right now.

False.

[zoraster]

And what I'm saying is that I think the evidence more clearly points toward not enough mods at the moment because there are ZERO games in sign ups right now.

False.

That's a Large Normal. we were talking about Large Themes.