Two-Headed Mafia 2 - GAME OVER!

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Vote: H2 da Tizzle

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FoS: Mgm

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Vote: Eon(but not re2fan)

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Unvote, vote: spectrumvoid

*wants those two cookies*

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I am tempted to unvote, but I actually agree with this vote, so I won't.

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I don't think we were, personally.

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Shut up, De

s

cartes.

Fixed. Misspelling Descartes is a scum tell.

Also,

FoS: Adele

for using "Yo" in a "Cogito ergo sum"-type soliloquy.

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Vote: Bogre

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You missed everything. (But probably not whatever Courk is on about.)

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FoS: Sherlock

for stealing my hammer.

Certainty vote: Adele

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3.) CES/Mgm, why did you vote for Pooky/Adele after you already knew they were lynched? Why exactly were you voting Bogre for the entirity of D3?

I was catching up with the thread and by the time I had reached the final posts, I had made up my mind to ====[]. Sadly, the final post was thestatusquo's hammah. I just threw in a vote, so that if a mistake had been made, I would get the ========[].

My original vote for Bogre was just a bandwagonnish vote. As a result of circumstances, it never left.

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FREUDIAN SLIP!

Vote: Glrok

(Also, I actually think he's scum, because of what PJ quoted in post 915, it's not something I see a pro-town player saying(unless he's a miller).)

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*does a little dance*

Sorry, Glrok, I don't believe there are just two mafiates left. I expect a 17-player game to contain more scum than a mini. I consider the mafia to be the biggest threat and I think there's already plenty of incentive for crosskills(the town is not the biggest threat to at least the mafia right now, I'd say.

You are free to tell us who you think the SK is, that'll also help the mafia, but you're going down.

Confirm vote: Glrok

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The "I actually think Glrok's scum" comment was meant to be contrasted with me wildly yelling "FREUDIAN SLIP!", not with previous votes. (I thought you had probably made a honest mistake, I just like yelling "FREUDIAN SLIP!". Honest.) My previous votes have mostly been bandwagon votes though, I don't deny that.

Do you really think I would kill Ibby? I'd totally kill DGB and Coron, but certainly not Ibby. I might kill Fritz, but not twice.

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Let's run him up!

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Amb, dude, it was a joke.

Nightson, I think you're too negative about possible crosskills. (Also, I'm not the SK, so I don't think the real SK is going to trust the town to take care of the mafia for him.) And Glrok could even be unnkable or something, I don't know. Lynching him seems like a better idea.

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If there's still a cult leader, then the town doesn't stand a chance in hell, so there's really no point in taking that possibility into account.

I'm presuming there are currently 3 mafia and 1 SK alive, in that case, lynching Glrok would not lose us the game, even if two good guys get nked.

Also, amb, that vote for Pooky/Adele I placed was pointless. It doesn't in any way exonerate me from not being part of the lynch, as I made it clear that I knew that they were already lynched, barring unusual circumstances. Are there any other reasons you think I'm scum?

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So who did our "forced vig" target? A doc and two townies? 2 cops and 1 townie? I mean, a forced vig wouldn't be this crappy, would he?

And at this stage of the game a forced vig should claim to be able to help the town to the fullest. Unless we hear a vig claim, I'm not taking your theory seriously.

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Then the vig can damn well come forward. I'm not giving this game to the scum by not lynching our claimed scum.

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Furthermore, I just find it hard to believe that there would be 4 mafia v 1 SK, unless that SK had some really stellar upgrades (such as UNNK and investigation immunity, or perhaps unnighttargetability for a forfeited kill, etc).

Dude, SKs are supposed to lose. This is balanced by the fact that they're awesome. I put a slightly downgraded SK in my 22-player Goats mafia. He didn't stand a chance, but that's not the point. He got to be

Space Hitler

and that's awesome. (I wouldn't be surprised if the SK did have a perk, but that's besides the point.)

Nightson, if we don't have a vig(forced or just plain dumb), we don't have a cult, realistically speaking. A vig-claim would be very informative. Also: reducing the amount of nks could be a good thing, maybe?

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Lowell, MoS's scum.

Jelly, I see dying when attempting to recruit scum as the standard. Really, there are too many "if"s for me to seriously consider a cult currently.

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Zindaras, MoS is Glrok.

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I looked around a bit, Jelly, and I couldn't find many, so they are apparently not as common as I thought(then again, cult leaders aren't common anyhow and I didn't actually find a counterexample).

Choose Someone Else's Role did contain such a cult leader.

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Confess, scumbag!

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Jelly, I'm not really downplaying the possibility of a vig, as I'm essentially asking for any vig to claim. If you really believe there's a vig, that point of view will only be confirmed, no?

Are you seriously saying cults are common? I wouldn't say so. Especially with smaller games(including this one, it's only 17 players). And I said "I see dying when attempting to recruit scum as the standard.", which I do. Your misrepresentation of my second argument is noted.

I must admit that the 66% cult rate in Courk games is unsettling, but I'll stand by my point of view that lynching Glrok is a better move without a vig claim. The 0% gunsmith rate doesn't mean that much to me. It doesn't get used that often, but I'm sure Courk knows the role. I don't intend to lynch kleb on this evidence.

I get the feeling you're trying to scare the town into doing the wrong things, jelly, with the cult thing.

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1.) You tried to downplay it until it was obvious I was not going to curl up and go away.

I mentioned straight away that any vig should claim.

Dude, trackers are clearly more common than gunsmiths. Gunsmiths aren't really common, but they definitely occur.

If you're so sure we have a cult and a vig, then why don't get the vig to claim?

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Forcing any possible vig to claim shall give us clarity and information we really need. At this point in the game, there are at least 4 scum left, realistically speaking. And if there's a cult, we need to know and we need to lynch the recruiter(this also makes 2A pretty much meaningless(as if it weren't already as a result of 2B)). If there's not a cult, then lynching kleb might well lose us the game. The importance of the information certainly justifies a claim. And your first point is just kinda dumb.

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You can scratch the "at least" in the second sentence. It's pretty much meaningless.

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Yay! Jelly has common sense! (This is a good thing.)

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I'm town, guys, honest. I feel dumb(I hope PJ's scum, it'll make me feel better about myself.)

Kleb/spec aren't dumb enough to recruit me. I very rarely make it to endgame.

We're probably down to 1 mafia now and if we're not, our Other killer could still save us from that threat, so we should lynch a Cultist. I have no idea who that would be though. Both Skruffs/Zindaras and Lowell/Sprontalic seem to be realistic targets for cult recruitment.

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True, but they're pretty awesome to compensate. I don't see why anyone would recruit CES/MGM.

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But kleb/spec doesn't know Dutch people are awesome.

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Lowell's question is too hilarious to be fake, so it's probably Zind(although the other targets might suggest amb.)

FoS: Courk

for needlessly confusing the town earlier.

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I wasn't talking about Skruffs' question(although I realize that my FoS suggested that I was), but about Lowell's question.

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Lowell's question was hilarious, dude. It was awesome. You can't just go and blindly compare to spec/kleb's actions.

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Killing cultists is preferable at this point.

Vote: Zindaras

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I'm town, Djelibeybi.

Why don't you restate your case against me, so I might be able to convince you of my glorious townieness? Because I don't think the town can afford to kill me.

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Stupid appeals to pity. *sigh*

One smiley does not an appeal to emotion make.

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Are you forgetting we also have a SK/forced vig? (Probably the former.)

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Do you realize that in the situation of Killer, Killer, Town, the town has a decent chance of winning? We don't need 2 townies to live.

If we lynch cult, we only get shafted if 1 Killer and 1 Town dies and there were 2 cultists or 2 Town die and there were 2 cultists.

If we lynch Killer, we get shafted if 1 Town dies and there were 2 cultists, which looks far too likely to me.

The thing is, we're going to have to rely on crosskills and right now we need to do something about the biggest threat and that's in all probability the cult.

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Sudden pro-cultness, Djelibeybi? Like Zindie's post on the last page, you mean?

I'm up for a mass claim.

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Only if he knows, Zind, only if he knows.

Also, MBL, work harder. I'm not scum.

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What? The standard cult recruiter has a 100% success rate. It could've been changed without him knowing. I don't see what you're saying.

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Well, the standard here is a 100% success rate, so unless explicitly mentioned, I would assume it to be the case.

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But Zindy, do realize that Cult recruiters don't have the advantage of numbers to begin with.

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Djelibeybi, you said you'd restate your case against me. I'm trying to give the town a chance to win this game, but all you do is argue pointlessly with an obvious cultist.
:nothelpful:

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Nuh-uh, let's lynch Zind today.

Lowell, cultists can't recruit, that's what the cult recruiter does(and he's dead.) But, in general, deaths are resolved last, so the cult recruiter probably did get a final recruitment in last Night.

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I said yesterday that I would make a case against you, and that I would do it when I had time to read through the game. I have not had time to read through the game over the course of the past day.

Meh, I'm impatient and I wouldn't want you to forget.

There is no reason to rush.

Yes, there is. There are plenty of scum out there who wouldn't think twice about lynching me and I am most certainly a top suspect.

As it is, your early posts (up to probably mid-day 3) are completely useless and almost impossible to "attack", which I am sure you are aware of, since all you did was bandwagon.

I acknowledge that, but I must point out that was a period of inactivity for me.

The biggest reason I think you could be cult is your reaction to the proposal of a Cult Leader yesterday. I wouldn't imagine a cultist would be incredibly enthused in having their Leader being called out when they are so close to lynching somebody they failed to recruit. The fact that you continually pushed the Glork/MoS lynch instead of calling for discussion is probably what bugs me the most. It seemed like you were trying to veer me into other directions.

That's understandable, I suppose. But I want to make one thing clear: I thought you were really advocating lynching kleb/spec that Day. I know you didn't specifically say you wanted, but I'm pretty sure you didn't deny it. I got the feeling that

you

were trying to veer the town into other directions, when the obvious course of action was to lynch Glrok.

False (as I noted), since there would have been 2 failed recruits.

Okay, that's a mistake, but I will point out that CEScum wouldn't underestimate PJ's diligence. If I had been a Cultist, I would've been imminently aware of the two failed recruits. Do you really think I would lie to you about that sort of stuff then?

Patently false, as I pointed out before, and as CES admitted when he could come up with one example for this.

Nuh-uh, I DO see it as the standard. And if I hadn't looked for it, I would still see it as the standard now.

Despite the fact that Courk uses Cults quite often and has never used a Gunsmith, CES ignores my case. He then follows up by (from what I see) trying to scare me away from continuing the discussion on a possible cult, while doubly trying to paint me as scummy for suggesting a cult.

I did not in any way ignore your case. I acknowledged both and I explained my take on the latter. And were you scared, Djelibeybi? I'm pretty sure you weren't. As for your final remark, I point you to my fourth response to your quotes.

That is completely stupid. I never once advocated trying to lynch somebody who "might" be cult over a confirmed scum in Glork/MoS. I was going to want to lynch them pretty much no matter what happened, and I made that abundantly clear. This looks like an attempt to make it seem like I was somehow being unreasonable in trying to discuss the possibility of cults, and that in doing so, I was not excercising "common sense". Unlike you, I wanted to make sure the town had a good discussion instead of just lynching.

Again, I really thought you were advocating lynching kleb/spec.

Now that it turns out MBL/me were absolutely right, you still started the day by trying to make us look like scum. Imagine why I just might think you were culted on N1.

How does that remark attempt in any way to make you look like scum? I sure don't see it.

Mgm, would you mind posting here? I have seen you post elsewhere on the forums.

He's being replaced.

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I don't particularly care either.

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Don't say "Sup", we are trying to look sophisticated.

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I just re-read PJ's posts to check whether he had made it clear who he wanted lynched Yesterday. He had not. He only made it clear moments before the lynch, so I say my mistaken view that PJ wanted spec/kleb lynched is very much understandable.

Post 935 also caught my eye. In hindsight I realize that that post may well have been meant as a sort of "shush, stop talking silly Glrok"-post.

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Sorry, Frustian, your partner already confessed.

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That and being scum.

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And I am going to need to see an explanation for your take on my Post 935. I was trying to get Glork to

talk

more, so that I might be able to finger his partner(s). How did you get the impression I was "telling him to 'hush'"?

Well, we both know Glrok is too good a player to just give out information willynilly as scum. I think Glrok's previous post at that point certainly gave us information. By being so direct and upfront about it you ensured Glrok would stop. If you had nudged him, maybe asked some critical questions about why he thought I was an SK, he might've unwittingly revealed more.

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And I am going to need to see an explanation for your take on my Post 935. I was trying to get Glork to

talk

more, so that I might be able to finger his partner(s). How did you get the impression I was "telling him to 'hush'"?

Well, we both know Glrok is too good a player to just give out information willynilly as scum. I think Glrok's previous post at that point certainly gave us information. By being so direct and upfront about it you ensured Glrok would stop. If you had nudged him, maybe asked some critical questions about why he thought I was an SK, he might've unwittingly revealed more.

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Look at Post 933, and then tell me I should have asked Glork "why he thinks you are the SK" in Post 935. From what I can tell, he is trying to present a "process of elimination" explanation. If I had asked him to explain why he thought you were SK, I guarantee he would have just said something like "try reading my last post".

That's why I said "critical questions why he thought I was the SK". Nitpicky questions about that post 933("but couldn't Nightson have been going for this?", sort of thing) is what I meant.

FoS: Djelibeybi

for misrepresenting me.

The fact is, Glork seemed to be in a "talkative" mood, so I figured I might be able to take advantage of that and get him to answer a question or two. In retrospect, I wish I had asked the questions one at a time instead of all at once, since he would have less time (while responding) to think about changing his answers or realizing it would probably be stupid of him to have answered my questions. If I had managed to get him in a direct conversation with me, I may have been able to get him to slip up or reveal something.

This is, in essence, what I meant. Asking him questions is perfectly pro-town, but the way you asked them could only lead to him shutting up.

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My primary goal in Post 934 was defending myself.

Accusing somebody of "hushing another player" by

asking questions

is about as dumb an accusation as I've seen.

Firstly, it did hush the player and not without reason.

Secondly, it's about the

manner

in which you asked questions. Stop misrepresenting me, scumbag.

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I never said 5. 1, 2 and 3 are common sense.

4 is WIFOM, but true, I wouldn't kill Ibby.

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Or, in other words, you have no case.

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Zind = cult.
PJ is totally mafia or SK.

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Cessy's obvobv scum, in my opinion. He's giving off loads of scumvibes.

You are clearly making this up.

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PJ I am curious why you wouldn't want to go for a night killer. As far as I am concerned you're defending scum. Why would scum want to cross kill at this point? Scum and mafia would rather figure out who each other is, get a townie lynched, and then kill two of the three other cult/townies during the night. At final three the remaining cult/townie decides who wins. This of course would depend on the SK and mafia either trusting in their own slickness or on relying on the other to not cut them down. PRisoner's dilemma.

The town can't win without crosskills. The remaining mafiaso want to crosskill, because the other killer is at least as big a threat to it as the town is. That's how it goes.

CES - CES seems both flippant and eager, I think he's overconfident because he thinks the game is in the bag.

Clearly, despite being at lynch -1, I think the game's in the bag. Clearly.

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I personally don't buy that theory, although Zind is still culty scum.

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Okay, the most probable situation right now is 1 cult, 1 mafia, 1 townie, in which case the town(aka me) loses. As such, I will assume we only have 1 mafia left.

FoS: petroleumjelly/MrBuddyLee

, I think you're the scumbag, but I feel obligated to re-read on Lowell/spront before voting.

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CES, what makes you think Lowell/spront are cult and PJ and I are scum? If I were in your shoes I think I'd suspect the other way around, and therefore I'm pretty much positive you're bullshitting.

I don't. I'm working off the assumption that we don't have a cultist, because else the town's already lost anyhow. I recognize it's unlikely, but the possibility is there. And I think you're the final mafiate.

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Why did you reverse the Bad-Good order?

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I'm waiting to hear from Lowell/sprontalic now, as I expect the decision will lie with them. I've made up my mind.

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Then why not vote? Because you're being manipulative.

Because I wanted to see how Lowell would react to that statement before commiting.

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Vote: Djelibeybi

, as Lowell has proven himself not to be the final Mafia, as I expected.

Very big FOS CES. The way you say "oh, well, the town is doomed, but clearly Lowell is the most suspicous" is opportunistic as hell.

I have no idea what you're thinking about.

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Lowell, I'm not scum. Either you accept a loss or you vote for Djelibeybi, the lying scumbag and take a victory.

Objectively(that is, I'll ignore the knowledge that I'm town for this exercise), a vote for me is a vote for a loss and a vote for Djelibeybi is a vote for a possible victory. Who deserves to win is not in any way relevant.

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You're a lying scumbag, specifically a lying mafiate.

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Gah. The power of logic and ethics compels you to vote for Djelibeybi.

Do you want to win? Yes.

So what is required for a Town Victory? For there firstly not to be a cult. Secondly for us to lynch the final Mafiate.

The first condition we have no control over. We can fulfill the second one. Objectively, if there's just one Mafiate, it has to be Djelibeybi, because he's already admitted to not being town. Therefore, we need to lynch him.

To phrase it differently: if there's a cult, the town's screwed, if there's not, Djelibeybi is lying and the mafiate and we must then lynch him.

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You know the logic is solid, Djelibeybi.

Objectively, the only chance for the town to win lies with a Djelibeybi-lynch and you know it. Subjectively, this is only more true.

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But I'm not mafia and more importantly there's an objective chance that I'm town. That alone is a good enough reason for Lowell to vote for you. Objectively, if he votes for you, he has a chance of winning. Subjectively, if he votes for you, him and me win.

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Lowell, you have an ethical duty to play for the victory, to vote for Djelibeybil.

And if you want to bring who deserves it most into, then Djelibeybi deserves to lose for claiming to be cult.

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Spec/kleb got roleblocked Night 1 or targetted a power role when they could only recruit townies. Night 4 they tried to recruit you(scum) or their death prevented it or they tried to recruit Amb but failed because they could only recruit Townies.

I admit that objectively 1 cult, 1 mafia, 1 town is likelier than 1 mafia, 2 town, but that doesn't matter. The 1 cult, 1 mafia, 1 town scenario always entails a town loss. 1 mafia, 2 town, gives the town a chance at victory. Even a 1% chance, although I obviously think the odds are objectively significantly higher, at there not being a cultist justifies the Djelibeybi-lynch.

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The fact that you keep referring to "objectively, the set-up could be X" is really obviating the fact that you are mafia. Townspeople do not talk about "objective" stances on the game: they talk about what the game is.

Subjectively,

I am town

. If Lowell believed me in that, this game'd be over. So using that as premise for my argument would be silly and pointless.

For him to say this with confidence he'd have to know we're scum and you're cult. But see, we're not. We're cult and you're apparently town.

No, I know you're the Mafia and I know Lowell is town.

Lowell, keep your head straight, look at your win condition and act in accordance with it.

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Victoire!

Lowell, always play for victory, no matter how slim the odds.

Djelibeybi, why did you claim cult? I'm confident you would've won if you hadn't.

Spec/kleb, who would've you have recruited N4?

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You played a good game, but as scum one mistake can be enough.