Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[Kublai Khan]

VOTE: zabriel

Scum found.

[Kublai Khan]

In general town are more likely to be ignorant of flavor than scum. Scum are more careful in knowing everything before playing.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, keep in mind that scum PMs usually list the names and characters of scummates and I think it's a fair assumption that both Harry potter and metal gear characters are scum. So Jason made a pretty strong town tell by not properly knowing the game theme.

[Kublai Khan]

would it make more sense to lynch Acosmist relatively soon (before lets say... day 3), than leave him alive being unconfirmed?

Would it make more sense to lynch BloodCovenent relatively soon (before lets say... day 3), than leave him alive being unconfirmed? Why are you pushing a policy lynch?

VOTE: Rapidcanyon

Thoughts?

You're not funny or original. Plus you're more likely to be scum since you're consciously trying to limit information that others can learn about you. So congrats.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, keep in mind that scum PMs usually list the names and characters of scummates and I think it's a fair assumption that both Harry potter and metal gear characters are scum. So Jason made a pretty strong town tell by not properly knowing the game theme.

If you believe him incapable of being skilled enough to fake such a statement. Do you?

jasonT1981 is a skilled player, however the statement reads as genuine to me.

B) Seems more like an open discussion. Have you never seen Kublai Khans game where he opened claiming Miller AND WON. KK, step in here if you will. Lets just say, there's plenty of good players in here, who had the pregame to discuss, and may have sought to take a gamble with a player like Acomists.

*steps in*
I wouldn't have advised it. The path of fakeclaim Day 1 --> victory is probably littered with more failures than successes. I only won because of a series of lucky circumstances. If Acomists is scum, then he's limited himself in what he is capable of doing for his scum team. I'd prefer to treat it as any other unprovable claim. Lynch him if a case can be made on his play.

I think I'd rather do a MOD meta of Pappums... I'm not sure I'm sold on the idea of a PGO. AND SOLID SNAKE????? Dudes the muthafuckin l33t assassin.... PGO??? PGO??? You're looking at a JoaT, strongarm vig... Something like that, but PGO....... doubting it tbh.

Who loses when we play a game of "outguess the mod"? Town does.

For all we know character names have nothing to do with role abilities. This isn't a path worth traveling.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Jason

Overreaction to Nero, terrible reaction to Zoro.

Names wrong?

[Kublai Khan]

argh, muck about when its not 2.30am. I really need to sleep.. I feel dead. See you in the tomorrow

This feels like an overlooked piece of information.

I mean, obviously he faked it so he could jump on a post made one minute later to achieve a masterful scum strategy of town-telling to the point where he'd never be considered for a lynch for the rest of the game.

Obviously.

[Kublai Khan]

What's your goal in this game Benmage? Going by your ISO you seem more interested in mud-slinging than trying to make sense of anything.

[Kublai Khan]

Going by your ISO you seem more interested in mud-slinging than trying to make sense of anything.

*peer* where did I mudsling?

A) Pushing the idea that jasonT1981 is deliberately faking a towntell.
B) Referrencing the game where I fakeclaimed miller out of nowhere
C) Casting aspersions on the Solid Snake/PGO claim via mod meta
D) Accusing me of buddying for arguing a POV.

Mind you it's only page 3 so the examples aren't full-blown attempts at anything, but there does seem to be a pattern emerging where you're playing up suspicion/paranoia and devaluing any early town reads.

[Kublai Khan]

A)I didn't really push this. I only questioned the quick town write off. I don't understand how this can be considered mudslinging.
B) In reference to Acomists PGO claim. Basically here he says No trackers/watchers/cops check me out or you'll die. Considering you have experience with early scum fakeclaims. I know Faraday once had a shitty partner of his also fakeclaim MILLER and GO ON TO WIN. I don't see how stating this info isn't worthwild, and certainly not out of nowhere. Moreoever I do have a lingering question for Acomist. I'm actually surprised how quickly you also wrote him off as town. Whats the nice buzz word... White Knighting?
C) Subjective. You might not like to play out guess the mod.. but knowing certain mod history can be beneficial. Some mods hate certain roles and will never use them. (More here, but again lingering question)
D) This is the only arguable "mud-sling".... But it doesn't negate the fact that it read like buddying behind a veil of sarcasm.

A) It's more of a "denying the positive accentuates the negative" type of thing.
B) I never said Acosmist was town. I just said I wasn't going to policy lynch him.
C) I'd rather ignore the mod altogether. Makes things simpler.
D) Well, it's not. I saw a town-tell and a bandwagon formed on it. So I tried to prevent a bad lynch. If that's buddying to you then you have a very broad definition of the word.

-What would be my hypo agenda in devaluing early town reads, and playing up certain paranoia?
--Certaintly you can't be thinking my master plan is to stop town reads from forming... that'd be absurd.
---Paranoia? A million tangents, noone trust noone? Meh... You think I'm aiming to be an early game scum Ring Leader? (Take another gander at the playerlist)

It's possible. I think that you do have the ego to make the attempt.

@KK, what are your thoughts on Zoroaster?

Well, overall it's obnoxious that his name is similar to the otter.
In this game his vote for jasont1981 is bad. Though his reasoning was bad, it seemed kinda earnest I guess. It's too early for a read, he needs to post more.

Why are you role fishing?

flavor fishing. Glad someone else found it to be a scummy post.

It's more than flavor fishing. The VT PM is in the OP. He's PR-fishing.

Unvote
Vote: Yates

[Kublai Khan]

A) It's more of a "denying the positive accentuates the negative" type of thing.
B) I never said Acosmist was town. I just said I wasn't going to policy lynch him.
C) I'd rather ignore the mod altogether. Makes things simpler.
D) Well, it's not. I saw a town-tell and a bandwagon formed on it. So I tried to prevent a bad lynch. If that's buddying to you then you have a very broad definition of the word.

A) Subjective
B) So you yield your initial point.
C) Still Subjective
D) Buddying is Buddying. Town Buddy. Scum Buddy. You Buddy'd by my definition. It peaked more of an interest because you gave the impression of TWO quick town write offs without the need of further discussion. Jason/Aco (maybe I was wrong with the impression, but thats how it came across to me)

A&C) Well yeah. It's my point of view.
B) I'm a little lost. What was my original point that I am apparently yielding now?
D) That's sorta become my playstyle for day 1. Since there are so many players and there's so little information, I find it easier to just narrow my focus by systematically ignoring people that town-tell or for whatever reason aren't going to be lynched Day 1. That doesn't mean I will continue to ignore them throughout the game. At the start of Day 2 is where the real scum-hunting begins.

Why are you role fishing?

flavor fishing. Glad someone else found it to be a scummy post.

It's more than flavor fishing. The VT PM is in the OP. He's PR-fishing.

Unvote
Vote: Yates

Can you link me a segment of game where scum actually are PR-fishing? I've seen this been accused of people a million times as something scum do. I don't think I've ever seen the accusation correct nor seen scum actually PR fishing.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p1720457
(yeah, yeah I was scum. But Mastin was scum as well and was totally fishing for flavor.)

NOTE TO EVERYONE: THIS DISCUSSION IS VERY DANGEROUS.

The vanilla PM is in the OP. Read it. All VTs are given is a role name and that's it. If anyone alleges to have any more information than that then they are not a VT.

[Kublai Khan]

Also bear in mind the fact I never asked Jason to provide flavor nor did I ask Jason to provide his character.

Except you did. If Jason has any flavor, then he's not a VT.

[Kublai Khan]

@Cybertronix - Why'd you unvote your random vote?

[Kublai Khan]

Is Zoroaster and zoraster the same person?

Two different accounts. I'm assuming two different people.

My mistake on the selfvote. Iso still reads bleh.

So Zabriel's ISO still reads bleh when you don't consider the nonexistent self-vote that you thought you saw? Did you even actually ISO him the first time you were asked?

If I wanted to vote Yates, I would. And I almost did for the reason I don't like about Yates; however, I don't agree with the reason for the wagon building. I'm having trouble reconciling scum Yates with this line of questioning he's been going through. I would imagine he would back down a bit and stop being so insistent about it as it's getting him votes.

Hmm. Good point, actually.

unvote

Kublai Khan's 30 came off as scummy. My self-vote was RVS vote, no reason to treat it as anything but, just because I chose myself to RVS vote.

Do you know what RVS stands for? How was your self-vote "random"?

I don't see any information "limiting" coming from a self-vote. This FOS seems completely fabricated. Checking back to see Kublai Khan's posts, he was way too quick to say that Jason towntelled for a very poor reason (not reading the setup). He also doesn't vote me. Why the weak FOS and no vote? It almost seems as if he is hoping someone would pick up that FOS.

Holy crap, you're so new to mafia I'm not even sure where to start..
A) You limited what early reads can be gotten on you by self-voting. When you self-voted you neglected to comment on anything previous that had happened. You didn't join any current wagons. You didn't link yourself to anyone by voting them. In sum, self-voting means that you've avoided interacting with anyone until you can get a cold read on them first. That's why I called it scummy behavior.
B) The FOS was completely fabricated. By you. I never FOSed you. Your action was certainly scummy, but your join date is so recent that I'm undecided on how to interpret it just yet.
C) Don't assume you know my reasons for doing stuff if you're not going to bother to read my posts. Read Post 29 for the reason that jasonT1981 town-telled. I know it's a whole one post back from the post addressed to you, but keep in mind that I rarely fluff post so if I post something in the game thread, it's worth reading.
D) I didn't vote you because my vote was on someone else (Zabriel) for a non-random reason.

I can see scum motivation behind making me look suspicious (achieve a mislynch)

That all said. You're probably town because of the line quoted above. It's so mind-blowingly naive and adorably self-centered that I doubt someone with a scum PM would think that it would fly as a cover story. Which is awesome because now I can just ignore you the rest of Day 1.

I learned that sometimes people need to stfu and let the subject of a question answer a question for themselves

Fine, fine. Shutting up.

Will put a vote down next post (tomorrow).

[Kublai Khan]

@ Kublai Khan, you reason for believing I am town is odd, to say the least. It seems like something scum would come up with to have a townread. Calling a post "too bad to be scum" is rarely something that town would do? If my posts seem scummy, why are you certain that I am town? Why no worry about possible scum when you see scummy posts? I doubt but anyone but scum would be so confident that a player is town because they find that player's posts bad, not good.

Because scummy actions and/or posts aren't necessarily something

only

scum do, just what scum tend to be

more likely

to do. In just about every game Town does scummy actions all the time. That's why it's important to look at context, circumstances, and mitigating factors. Looking at those is how I judged you to be town.

(@ kk: but I agree, his stubborness does seem town, doesn't it?)

Not sure whose stubborness you're referencing here (Yates or rapidcanyon). The answer would probably be yes either way though.

What voting Acosmist? At the moment I think he's town, but its still so early. I wouldn't call what I'm saying is doubting him, I am more enlightening everyone to previously effective scum tactics. I think this is the second time you've made false undermining statements regarding me. (Maybe I'll gander later when I have more time)

I can't shake the fact that this really looks like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
"I think he's town!" "But his claim is totally something scum would fake!"

You're pro-activeness in pointing out potential scum strategies is rubbing me the wrong way. Why bring up what is basically a WIFOM argument so early in a game? Especially when you yourself don't think it's likely.

I dunno, it's early day 1 and people have been going mad over stupid. People have been going apeshit over a claim based on a couple of fanboys bitching about Solid Snake being the most badass badass that ever badassed. And no, I didn't look at the vote count. I was just looking at the pressure in thread. That's what I meant by wagon.

"People" huh? You're obviously reading the game, but you're not keeping track of who is saying what. Which means that you're not actually scum-hunting.

Vote: zabriel

[Kublai Khan]

@Zoroaster - What's your read on zabriel?

[Kublai Khan]

There's a lot of only speaking when spoken to, and I feel like the non-Kise lurkers were waiting for the dirt to fling on viable mislynchees. I feel that KK is wearing Ben down, possibly bussing zab and giving jason an unwarranted townslip pass. Not saying jason is scum, but I wouldn't quickly fall for someone "HO OH NO, Snake don't exist in Harry Potter game, hint hint I'm from Harry Potter theme". It was a loud comment by jason and, as referenced and linked, decepticon master KK's miller fakeclaim would (IMO) make him the last person to have their guard down. On that note, I have to figure out what KK's scum motivation is for calling jason town. BBL on that note, maybe/hopefully.

I'm trying to figure out exactly why you're voting me. It feels like it's essentially a "he's acting different than how I feel he should be acting" argument. To which I can only reply:

Have you actually read the game Kise, or did you just skim? Because I laid out the logical reason behind jasonT1981's towntell. I really don't see the logic behind your, well, ramblings. Make a longer post. One that makes more sense.

p.edit: fck you daykiller for confirming day actions. But please, answer Aco..

Wait, am I reading this right? do you want to out the Day Killer? if so, why??????

Ugh @Kise {Way to not read the thread, Kise. Hint: See the VT/flavor discussion}

That's the point that KK was making that I had liked. He disappeared after this, so I'm not sure if he was going to do anything with it.

Disappeared? It was 24 hours ago and Benmage just got around to replying to it.

Vote: zabriel

(for reasons stated previously)

Update: I officially declare the zabriel wagon full of fail

Why?

[Kublai Khan]

There's a lot of only speaking when spoken to, and I feel like the non-Kise lurkers were waiting for the dirt to fling on viable mislynchees. I feel that KK is wearing Ben down, possibly bussing zab and giving jason an unwarranted townslip pass. Not saying jason is scum, but I wouldn't quickly fall for someone "HO OH NO, Snake don't exist in Harry Potter game, hint hint I'm from Harry Potter theme". It was a loud comment by jason and, as referenced and linked, decepticon master KK's miller fakeclaim would (IMO) make him the last person to have their guard down. On that note, I have to figure out what KK's scum motivation is for calling jason town. BBL on that note, maybe/hopefully.

I'm trying to figure out exactly why you're voting me. It feels like it's essentially a "he's acting different than how I feel he should be acting" argument. To which I can only reply:

Have you actually read the game Kise, or did you just skim? Because I laid out the logical reason behind jasonT1981's towntell. I really don't see the logic behind your, well, ramblings. Make a longer post. One that makes more sense.

p.edit: fck you daykiller for confirming day actions. But please, answer Aco..

Wait, am I reading this right? do you want to out the Day Killer? if so, why??????

Ugh @Kise {Way to not read the thread, Kise. Hint: See the VT/flavor discussion}

That's the point that KK was making that I had liked. He disappeared after this, so I'm not sure if he was going to do anything with it.

Disappeared? It was 24 hours ago and Benmage just got around to replying to it.

Vote: zabriel

(for reasons stated previously)

Update: I officially declare the zabriel wagon full of fail

Why?

[Kublai Khan]

I don't think much of any of the votes on me. They aren't really high on my list of shit I care about.

Look at this! This guy is town. I absolutely don't see a scum zabe faking the "I give 0 fucks" vibe. That reads genuine. I feel like scum zabe would be freaking the fuck out right about now.

I still can. Giving a zero fucks seems to be more of a personality thing. And he's been posting much more since he's come under suspicion.

I think he's being unfairly jumped on for more or less reasonable things. His main failure is that he is posting opinions which don't seem to be fully formed, or fully thought through. Furthermore he sometimes doesn't respond to direct questions, for whatever reason, which gives people easy ammunition to throw at him (ie "why didn't you answer my question in xxxx?").
Basically I don't see a convincing case that there are scum motivations behind his actions, just sub-optimal play.

I'm still not getting why you're so dismissive.

* He jumped a vote on jasonT1981 for a piss-poor reason (Post 14 then later claims that he's "slow with votes, especially on D1. It's just one of my things." (Post 203)
* He votes for Benmage based on points I made (Post 203), then switched to a burgeoning wagon on me claiming "I actually did have scum feel on KK earlier, I'm not sure if I mentioned it or not though." (Post 260)
* His position on Acosmist's claim was a bizarre dance. "I'm actually not considering people who went after him suspicious, mostly because I feel this is one of those cases where scum are just willing to let town make the case and then get slammed for it later." (Post 121) to "I am not a fan of anybody on the Aco wagon." and "I'm pretty sure some of the pressure on him is scum looking to push a mislynch." (Post 187 - worth noting that there was no wagon on Acosmist, zabriel later retconned it to "pressure" being the same thing as wagon). Also worth noting that he never named a single poster that was scummy due to putting non-wagon pressure on Acosmist. He just ignored questions that he couldn't answer.

I realize that the line between sub0optimal town play and scum play can be blurry. But zabriel is clearly on the scum side of that line.

Good deflection though.

Not sure if trying to get the last laugh as town or scum.

What do you think, KublaiKhan?

I don't really know Cybertronix's personality well enough to make that call but I'll say town. zabriel's "why are you bringing that up?" offensive was pretty stupid considering that Cybertronix only did bring it up to answer Zoroaster's question. And the timing is certainly suspect. zabriel did seem to be trying to jump onto something while he was being wagonned pre-daykill. So called it a deflection is not just a random mud-sling.

@ThAdmiral: Add the above to my case on zabriel. It's evidence of a slight freak-out to his initial wagon.

Took me close to 3 hours but yes, I've read everything from the rules, timestamps, join dates and on down to before I hit the submit button. Every post of yours, it comes across like you're playing an angle instead of really trying to dissect things for a purpose. Even here, the slight shade by asking me if I've skimmed the thread. Mind gaming is something I'm all too familiar with, so if someone looks like they're playing master manipulator, it's only polite of me to say hello.

Okay. Sounds like you're letting past reputation cause you to have confirmation bias.

I asked you if you might have skimmed the thread because I explained why I thought jasonT1981 was town in Post 29. This feels like a re-hash of stuff I've already argued. Yes, I acknowledge that there exists a marginal possibility that it was all part of jasonT1981's master plan to only appear to have town-telled, but I'm leaning on the side of Occam's razor. My experience and cunning tells me that sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar. But thanks for the compliments.

Besides, even if it's an evil genius fake town-tell, he's not clear... not by a longshot. If he does something suspect that I spot or someone else puts up a decent case, then that towntell doesn't save him.

What that gotta do with day actions tho?

VTs have a very basic PM with very, very little information. Re-read the first post with the example. If you ask anything that sounds like you have flavor (like something about "color" or insinuating that you have day-actions) then you are basically soft-claiming PR. Thus, ugh.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, Solid Snake is a main character, and one that we'd generally assume is in the game. I feel like it would be too ballsy to fakeclaim when somebody could very easily nameclaim and send him to the gallows quick.

God I hope as I read further someone corrected this^.

@zabriel

Sometimes mods will not include main characters (I know crazy). And also sometimes they won't include them, BUT they will give them to scum as SAFECLAIMS.

This is actually a pretty decent town tell.

Wait, how? It's a noob-tell if anything. He could easily be a scum without a safeclaim.

I don't know how you can make such a declarative statement... You call his play bizzarre. I often can't comprehend the rationale of individuals logic. But more often than not its coming from town. Scum tend to think more, react slower, and appear more levelheaded... I don't get bizzare = scummy. Imo its the opposite.

I never said his play was bizarre. Where'd you get that? I don't think he's scummy because of his playstyle if that's what you're implying.

Okay. Sounds like you're letting past reputation cause you to have confirmation bias.

Well, unless you've

lost it

, then YEAH I'm thinking you would be on the lookout for someone pulling the wool over your eyes.

I've screwed up many times by being over-paranoid and wrong. There's a fine line somewhere.

Plus Nero killing a scum obv only added to that.

wut
Oh, he's gone. Well, damn.

I've only read the first 5ish pages so far

Let me understand this.. You read the first 5 pages and the ISO of the guy you'd be replacing, then you got your PM. Then you re-read the game? Why?

And after reading I Am Innocent in ISO without context, you decided he was non-scummy enough to replace. Is that all correct?

FoS Kublai Khan for his Zabriel case. Nope. For someone willing to give townpoints to jason for slipping, you don't see Zabriel's misunderstanding of safe claims to be townie? Especially considering hes not likely to be "purposely town slipping". Nope. And more nope. And a token 'why' tossed to Thadmiral about why he thinks the Zabriel wagon is shit.

The guy who says something stupid on the fly drops a more credible town-tell then the guy who does something sorta not really similar-ish 180 posts later after lots of discussion about towntelling.

Context is important. Revolutionary, I know.

I wasn't done typing this but I just got a call from the ER and need to go. Mod, I need to request replacement.

Hope everything is okay.

Kublai Khan have you mentioned Melmond once this game? Read?

I have not.

Nothing jumped out at me all game about him. But he has kinda a mousey disposition. I just read 7 pages and it's 3 am though. So I'll ISO him tomorrow and give you a better analysis then.

[Kublai Khan]

Analysis of Melmond

- Can't really be null on jasonT1981. Either you think he's town or scum.
- Very passive sentencing. (i.e. "seems", "think", "I don't know")
- Votes for zabriel and BloodCovenant. Neither with any noticeable oomph behind them.
- The BloodCovernant case is very weird. He quotes posts 22 & 42 as being the main core. If that's so, why'd he wait so long and why vote zabriel first?

Summary: There are definite signs of opportunism and trying to move wagons along. I'd like the case better if there was a longer history of it.

:/ I guess. I see the similarities in the two cases. I can see it if someone else doesn't I guess.. But really, would Zabriel flat out pretend to not know what a safeclaim is (or that it exists) if he were scum?

Also, Solid Snake is a main character, and one that we'd generally assume is in the game. I feel like it would be too ballsy to fakeclaim when somebody could very easily nameclaim and send him to the gallows quick.

KK, roll with me on this.

If Zabriel is scum, he has a fake claim, right?

Therefore he knows about fake claims and that his previous statement is a load of BS and is making it just to look town. Is Zabriel really capable of that play? Jason, maybe. Zabriel, uhhhhh:

Spoiler:

Did you really have to open this spoiler, or were you just curious to see what could be in it?

Answer to bolded: Not necessarily. There's lots of characters in both the MGS and HP worlds, nevermind both together.

When I said that jasonT1981 town-telled, it's because I made the following assumptions:

1) In a setup that combines both Harry Potter and Metal Gear, it is very likely that the scum team has a combination of both Harry Potter and Metal Gear characters.
2) If jasonT1981 had a scum PM, it would name his scumpartners and the character names of his scumpartners.

Since I had to confirm my role via PM, I know that jasonT1981 had to read his role PM, so if he's scum he'd have to know that there is a mixture of setups. Note: this is why I said at the beginning of the post that people can't be null on jasonT1981. Or if you want to be null, you have to present a good arguing as to why my assumptions are incorrect. (Further note: third party is possible, but falls under the umbrella of scum atm). Either he's on the level (town) or he's faking (scum).

Now, your assumption for zabriel is the following:

1) Scum will always have fakeclaims.

Shorter, less numbers, but I have a tougher time with it. Maybe it's just because I've played more games here and remember when fakeclaims were the exception rather than the rule.

But a bigger part of me is bothered by the fact that it's a much later tell. jasonT1981 made his in his first few posts. zabriel made his pages later and after arguments had been made along of the lines of "people who make incorrect naive assumptions are given towncred".

Quid pro quo. Why are you arguing that jasonT1981 is capable of playing dumb but zabriel isn't?

I never said his play was bizarre. Where'd you get that?

Here:

* His position on Acosmist's claim was a bizarre dance.

Oh. Well, point remains anyways. His actions were bizarre, not his playstyle.

@ KK - regarding your question in post Post 506. It is a noob-tell, but it's more likely to be a noob-town-tell than a noob scum tell without a safe claim. How often have you seen a large theme like this without provided safe claims? I looked and don't see any pappums games here in large, but faraday was one of the reviewers so I'd expect something given. Besides the way he approached it doesn't seem devious, so I don't see it being an intentional fake claim. Also, I'm not interested in playing out guess the mod on this one. I think that along with all the other things I've mentioned make me think hes more likely to be town.

> argues using mod meta (worse, a reviewer's meta)
> states no interest in playing out-guess the mod

arrgh. Fine. I gave it my best case and couldn't drive up interest so maybe I am wrong. Plus ThAdmiral is doing Day 1 wagon analysis which is pretty much the kiss of death.

Unvote

Vote: Cybertronix

I like the case. He is parrotting quite a bit.

[Kublai Khan]

Maybe it's just because I've played more games here and remember when fakeclaims were the exception rather than the rule.

Why not look up pappums' modded games? Yates and I could tell you about it. I think Pere is a player itg.

Also, fakeclaims are the rule now, due to not breaking games with stupidness.

It'd still be an assumption. It could still be fakery. etc.

Second sentence doesn't make sense, but that doesn't seem relevant to this game.

Let me understand this.. You read the first 5 pages and the ISO of the guy you'd be replacing, then you got your PM. Then you re-read the game? Why?

I saw the spot in the Q. I read the ISO. I skimmed the first few pages (probably was less than 5 tbh) and then requested it.

@Kublai: What did my response to this tell you about me?

Well, the reason I asked was because of posts 397 and 404. It seems odd that you were posting what appeared to be catch-up reactions, but you had said that you had already read that stuff pre-replacing. Then you said you skimmed, so it appears to be just moot and so I dropped the subject.

Why do you care about my read on you?

@everyone - Cybertronix needs more votes.

[Kublai Khan]

@acosmist - summarize your scum reads.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh and amrun , when looking at cybertronix, please note that avox told cyber to sheep him onto Yates.

Fuck. You're right. (again) That's a super-ballsy move for scum to make.

Fuck it, I'm just going to sheep Tammy. She's reading the game better than I am right now.

unvote
Vote: Melmond

@kk - why did you do a semi-detailed read of melmond in Post 559 and come to the conclusion that you'd like to see more before making a decision, but took the parroting thing of cybertronix without the same level of detail ns voted him and re calling for more votes on him?

I believe parroting is usually a better scumtell. The scum-tell that Melmond was displaying usually is more convincing if there's a clearer/longer evidence of it.

The AurorusVox comment is the only reason I'm not on a Cybertronix wagon. For example, the post you quoted in Post 719 reads scummy to me (maybe null at best -- I don't read it as town at all).

Acosmist is really obnoxious. I can't wait until he goes away.

[Kublai Khan]

Well, he's not going anywhere unless we lynch him KK. I'm not really up for a policy lynch right now though.

I meant him going away for the week-end. So we can get a break from his douchy Jersey Shore-esque "Come vote me, bro!" quad postings.

[Kublai Khan]

Am I being parroted?

There is a difference between repeating a single argument (repeating an argument) in the midst of other original thoughts and having said nothing but regurgitated arguments to justify votes the whole game (parrotting).

You should well know the difference. Unless, of course, you just made the post because you want proper credit for seeing that first. In which case: Good boy, Nero Cain. Good boy. Who's a good boy? You are.

Zab talked himself back into the leaning scum pile with that Jester nonsense.

but it was Melmond that suggested jester. The hell is wrong with you Yates?

vote: Melmond

Walk me through the logic of why scum would be more likely to suggest someone is a jester.

Haven't had time to review Cybertronix and Melmond but I see Cyber's wagon is smaller so

This is scummy.

19. Kublai Khan - I keep mixing you up with someone else. Either him or you called me a bad townie somewhere. Proved to be rather prophetic. You were the guy who shouted too much for what you wanted to say, I think.

Sounds like you could be mixing me up with kuribo. Or Korlash. Or a mix of both.

Oh and amrun , when looking at cybertronix, please note that avox told cyber to sheep him onto Yates.

Fuck. You're right. (again) That's a super-ballsy move for scum to make.

Hate to pull a zabe and all, but, you know, there could be two scum teams.
For me, however, the avox/cyber interaction doesn't rule out the possibility that they were scum together.

I hope you're not expecting me to hold off voting someone based on speculation of multiple scum groups before a single night has passed.

And no, it doesn't absolutely rule out a AurorusVox/Cybetronix scumteam but it makes it so improbable that I'm happy ignoring the possibility atm.

But please explain your "I've got such a town read on Melmond that I'm going to actively prevent his lynch" attitude.

[Kublai Khan]

I think a bit of pressure is due on Kise.. he said he is reading, then says he did little, then makes a fluff posting.

Seems like scum trying to skate by uninterested in the game right now

That's Day 2 stuff. We're 30 pages+ in and within days of the deadline. Let's get more than halfway to a lynch, yes?

but what does seem rather odd is he's "like lets end the day but I'm going to vote someone who isn't going to get lynched while calling one of the leading wagons scum."

I agree with this. It's very fucking odd behavior.

But I was legit asking if Tammy was sheeping me but I did want to make it clear that I was the one that said the sheeping thing first since both you and Thad seem to have just ignored it, not that I care about "credit". I mean Thad thinks I'm sheeping Tammy with my Cyber town read.

Ah. That's a fair point to make to ThAdmiral then. I apologize for missing your point earlier as I wasn't focused on Cybertronix at the time. I read it, it just didn't stick.

I hope you're not expecting me to hold off voting someone based on speculation of multiple scum groups before a single night has passed.

And no, it doesn't absolutely rule out a AurorusVox/Cybetronix scumteam but it makes it so improbable that I'm happy ignoring the possibility atm.

But please explain your "I've got such a town read on Melmond that I'm going to actively prevent his lynch" attitude.

Fair enough about avox/cyber, we'll have to agree to disagree. Here is where I explain my townread on melmond:

- melmond
Melmond looks good to me. Mainly because he comes to a lot of the same conclusions I have (which indicates he is coming from a town perspective), and has explained himself and his thought processes fairly well from the get go. I also like how he isn't afraid of saying that his opinions changed (mainly in regards to zabriel) - I've often found that scum will find a target and then not budge off them unless they have a good reason to do so.

That's a pretty weak town read, if you don't mind my saying so.

[Kublai Khan]

My number one target is actually PeregrinV mostly because he is pretending not to read any of my posts. I really don't feel like reading the whole thing now. I'll probably do it this Night and come back with some good analysis next day. Out of the wagons that are hapenning right now... I honestly didn't read a single post Melmod wrote - yeah, I am behind and need to catch up. But I'll ISO Melmond tonight and see if I need to switch my vote from Angry to him.

My townread on NeroCain is solid because it is based on something that is very difficult to do as scum: Lead the town.

If you haven't read the game, how do you know that Nero Cain is leading the town? And in what way is he leading us?

[Kublai Khan]

I have read the game up until my last wall post.

So what has he lead the town to do?

[Kublai Khan]

I have read the game up until my last wall post.

So what has he lead the town to do?

You don't think I'm leading at all?

That's not my point. He's stated that he has not read large parts of the game or any Melmond post at all, yet he can point to a specific player and claim that they are influencing the town. Something is off.

Though to answer your question, not really. Your wall post exchanges with AngryPidgeon were pretty atrocious.

[Kublai Khan]

5 pages in 12 hours? You guys are assholes.

Whoah. Cool.

VOTE: Khan Man.

Policy.

Nice to see you too, mastin2. I'm really weirded out that you're calling me a town-read and overall ignoring me.

P-p-pedit: Yes, but it makes the zabriel case OBVIOUS BULLSHIT. Anyone talking about his 'slip' needs to die.

Why? People had a theory that maybe he scum-slipped (that he was in a small mafia and suspected another mafia). That doesn't seem to be true. Why should people die because they formed a theory that didn't pan out?
@Nero Cain - same question
@snifit - same question

After returning from rumspringa,

Top notch reference.

Hey Pidgey, remember what we spoke about.

dafuq?

Also, and I'm not really sure how to handle this, but I received a message last night. I had this role once before and was told the basic purpose of it was to confirm that role and that someone took that action, instead of killing I guess, that night. Anyway, I dont know if i sould have kept that to myself, but ill be able to verify the sender if and when its necessary. For the last two parts, I feel the same and yes.

Maybe it's the way you worded that, but you made it sound like the person who messaged you had the option of messaging or killing. Is that the case?

Other than that.. I'm not liking mastin2's snifit case. It feels like a attempt to railroad a lynch. But mastin2 replaced Cybertronix, so.. yeah.

[Kublai Khan]

Kise, are you scum?

[Kublai Khan]

Only if I'm scum with you.

Cheeky.

Vote: Kise

Why did you lie in post Post 311?

[Kublai Khan]

Down for snifit.

Or confirmedscum Tammy ....

vote snifit

Prob town:
snifit

Why did benmage vote snifit over "confscum" Tammy?

[Kublai Khan]

^Whose that question directed to?

Anyways the answer is because I thought he was scummier than he is + a plausible lynch.

But relooking he isn't as scummy as I think.

So I am voting confirmedscum Tammy. But I'm okay with lynching anyone in my probscum list, as one cannot always get the lynch they'd like.

Nobody in particular. Sometimes I like to see who answers an unaddressed question.

What was the catalyst that caused you to change your read on him? Because to me, it looks like you jumped on a convenient runaway wagon-train but bailed when the conductor (mastin2) pulled the brake. We are 24 hours removed from the start of Day 2. Why are you already giving up on getting the lynch you'd like and going for the convenient wagon?

KK

what is your read on Tammy anyways?

Not on the town list. Her excuses are annoying, but I'm waiting to see how the mailman stuff plays out.

[Kublai Khan]

Why did you lie in post Post 311?

Name a n**** that want some! I’ll out-rap his ass, out-trap his ass. Put his ass in a plastic bag with his trashy ass. Take him out!

What's your angle today, my probscumbuddy?

Kublai Khan is sketchiest. I shouldn't say every post of his is him playing an angle, but what gets my attention is the string pulling. He's relying too strongly on opinions, and since

I was one of the townies that lost to him years ago, the sting of his miller fakeclaim has never gone away.

Remembering that and seeing how quickly he says you (jason) townslipped, something does not feel right. I KNOW KK is schooled in the art of mind gaming, so why wouldn't he suspect you of doing the same?

The bolded part is the lie. We've played in three games together since Mafia 96 (miller claim). You've never, ever mentioned "the sting" before. You've never called me a MASTER MANIPULATOR before. In fact, in Road to WrestleMania Mafia you pushed for me to receive the bulletproof power because it would benefit the town greatly on the off-chance I was town. So how come in this game you open up with a baseless attack on me that hypes up my past scum successes?

What's your angle?

KK

what is your read on Tammy anyways?

Not on the town list. Her excuses are annoying, but I'm waiting to see how the mailman stuff plays out.

So, tell me KK, how often is it that you listen to people's opinions about the people who you are voting who are not on your town list. Also, how often is it you just sheep people not on your town list?

You are also going to need to point out these excuses that are annoying. If you mean the only two I can think of: a.) me getting prodded because I forgot to declare v/la over a weekend but delivering content the day I promised and b.) making sure I came in here and gave what I consider a vital piece of information so that I don't forget but not commenting on things because I'm sick, you can shove it.

You're not on the scum list either. You're null. You made a great observation that got me to change my vote, but Nero Cain deserved original credit, so your super-town cred is tarnished. I want you to post more and re-earn that town cred. Your illness annoys me.

[Kublai Khan]

LOL... best you got? I fail to see what I lied about. Did I say I've always brought up how stung I was in all our games? You do know the whole reason for me bringing that up is because you called jason town, without consideration that he may be pulling a similar stunt as you, which is what you're acclaimed for? As far as I know, you're the first person to dupe town by fakeclaiming miller. No one really doubted D1 miller claims until after you got away with the fakeclaim and won. You're something like a celebrity. Your act isn't something easily forgotten. So, yes, I brought it up only after you acted as if jason could not be playing any tricks, because I know you're not new when it comes to trickery.

Except it's not similar in any way. If anything Acosmist's claim is the most similar to what I did and no, I'm not giving him any clearance for it.

Keep in mind, you didn't just say "Khan is suspicious", you called me the shadiest person in the game. You still haven't attributed any scum motivations to my actions, you just insisted that I should be a lot more paranoid. Well, there's scum motivation in boosting paranoia and poking holes in other's scumreads. Especially townreads of people of people you don't believe to be scum.

my vote is getting lonely here, can we please lynch scum instead of randomly wagoning a townie

once a game is enough for that poopoo

Is the entirity of your case against Benmage a protracted "he's trying to lynch me!" OMGUS argument? Because Benmage's counter-case of "Hey Acosmist is a useless fuck who is coasting and not scumhunting" is much more compelling.

And I'm kinda iffy on Benmage, so that's saying a lot.

...whu? Really? That's what you have for me? That's a misrep at BEST - not a lie.

Vote: Kublai Khan

Explain in your next post why you overstated your case on Kise because this is anti-Town bullshit and I'm in no mood for any more bullshit today.

A misrep is a type of lie. Kise came into the game essentially saying "Khan is a MASTER of manipulation". I'm going to view that as an attempt to discredit me. Especially since Tammy and mastin2, two players whom I've notoriously beaten as scum, are saying that I read as town and Kise has a history of boosting me as a credible town player.

It's meta, so all the caveats apply, but Kise reads like he's trying to be manipulative himself. You don't find it strange that Kise has yet to list a single town-read? Kinda feels like scum keeping their options open, doesn't it?

[Kublai Khan]

Not sure whether Kublai Khan is lying and thus gets lynched as a liar, but whatever, I'd rather lynch him as scum. u scum with these ppl?

That's your entire case against Benmage? A single sentence half a game ago about how he's not that great, therefore scum?

How is you popping in every few days saying "my vote is lonely" not active lurking and prod-dodging?

[Kublai Khan]

@ThAdmiral - So is the messenger town/third party? Because claiming "I got a message" isn't a viable long term strategy for scum.

[Kublai Khan]

In fairness, I can't give your "Tammy calls me Town so obviously I'm Town" argument much credence because I have also duped her with ease. Although, maybe I should because that would make me conf-Town as well, right? [<3 Tammy!]

I never duped Tammy. I did the same thing to her as scum that I see Kise doing here. I attacked her credibility so her counter-case looked petty and OMGUS.

And I've been scum in 8/9 games with mastin2. It's been a running joke that he starts forming scum-teams off my interactions without bothering to figure out what I am.

Meh. I don't have a ton of Town reads either. I think that's fairly common for Town wanting to keep their options open as well. It could be scummy, I suppose, but it is equally indicative of a Townie that simply doesn't trust anyone. Also, I have gotten into the habit of allowing players to defend themselves so I don't defend an incorrect Town read and get burned for it. As scum, I've used that tactic to tie a nearly unlynchable Townie to my destiny so I avoid it like the plague. To that effect, this isn't me defending Kise so much as challenging your logic on a case, which I think is a distinction worth making clear.

Yeah, but. You've got two town-reads in your first two posts. One of them is jasonT1981. Why didn't Kise find you scum? You don't find it strange that I'm held to such an insane standard that nobody else is held to?

I agree that messenger is likely Town. So why would you want Tammy to out a Townie?

Non-rhetorical question: Why is it bad to out the messenger?

[Kublai Khan]

P-P-edit: Ok KK, would you be ok with claiming first and popcorning to the messenger?

What?

[Kublai Khan]

Because I don't really believe it to be a town role. I've been messenger twice (1 scum/1 survivor). It seems very pointless as a town role since they can't converse and can't give any useful information.

If it is town, then why should it painstakingly "confirm" itself to one person at a time?

[Kublai Khan]

Non-rhetorical question: Why is it bad to out the messenger?

If you out the messenger you out Town? Am I missing something here?

Explain why it's bad to out town.

[Kublai Khan]

P-edit: Ya, I'm not insane here right? Tammy already said she thinks its from town. And unless Tammy and a buddy are gambiting super hard, I do not believe that they can be scum/scum.

With apologies to Tammy, but Tammy could be wrong.

Explain why it's bad to out town.

Scum night target?

You'd cry over the loss of a town messenger?

[Kublai Khan]

You'd cry over the loss of a town messenger?

Depends. Tammy hasn't said what the info is yet. If that's how our cops communicate without outing themselves? Yeah. I would QQ in my Cheerios.

Doesn't sound like an amnesiac cop. Sounds like a mailman.

Also, and I'm not really sure how to handle this, but I received a message last night. I had this role once before and was told the basic purpose of it was to confirm that role and that someone took that action, instead of killing I guess, that night. Anyway, I dont know if i sould have kept that to myself, but ill be able to verify the sender if and when its necessary. For the last two parts, I feel the same and yes.

And no, btw, I'm not claiming who messaged me right now. I'll leave that up to discussion for what's the best course of action. It will be outing one person's role and will be narrowing the pool for everyone else. I made sure it was there for confirmation purposes. And, I'm not outing the message either. If the sender wants to say what they sent to me that's their prerogative. It was no big secret and nothing great and game changing so there's no need whatsoever; it was just one person's thoughts about the game I'm not going to violate that. Also, I'm fairly certain the sender of the message is on your town list and is someone I very strongly believe to be town as well; that's pretty much all I'm going to say about that.

[Kublai Khan]

And I've been scum in 8/9 games with mastin2.

Pretty sure that we haven't had nine previous games together. Maybe nine total, including this one, but I seem to recall in SG-1 that I did the numbers and it was 6/6, maybe 7/7. Add in the next game, and that's either 6/7 or 7/8. Not 8/9.

Need to double-check to make sure, but this seems like a scumslip.

Goddamn, mastin2. The numbers are pulled out of my ass.

@Benmage - Go back to 1016 and read at least 12 posts from that. Both me & Yates addressed that.

[Kublai Khan]

Ya, Tammy took that back and said it was just poor phrasing. I do not understand how Tammy is undesirable #1, yet you apparently don't care to read her posts.

She took that back ... awesome. Look its not that I'm not reading. I JUST GOT POWER BACK, I DONT HAVE INTERNET... wtf. I'm doing the best I can.

Anyways if she took it back, all the more reason to put fourth all the information.

How do you not see it as scum backtracking?

It's not backtracking per say. She just clarified that it indicates that the person who sent the message could not have also sent a night-kill.

[Kublai Khan]

Sounds like a mailman.

Ok. At worst this is like a weak neighbor, right? Would you [KK or Benmage] want a neighbor to out a neighbor?

No, it sounds nothing like a neighbor. It sounds like a mailman. It's a one-way message, though the moderator.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay so, I'm not entertaining any idea that Tammy isn't a Day SK. Except maybe if it's something interesting like mafia have a daykill instead of nightkill, but probably not.

I really don't know why you guys why push Tammy to shoot Acosmist. Two birds, one stone.

Vote: Kise

I think it might be better to leave Tammy alive to draw the NK. If she doesn't die, then she has to shoot Acosmist. If she doesn't die and refuses to shoot Acosmist, then she gets lynched.

[Kublai Khan]

Yates, you're being an idiot. Put yourself in her claimed shoes. You have a town dayvig pm. You are not a miller. You have yet to take a shot. Someone claims a guilty on you. Do you:

A) shoot the player with the guilty result because it must be fake.
B) waffle, give no helpful information then shoot near randomly for a piss-poor reason (he didn't post)?

Hint: a is town. B isn't.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm not shooting Zabriel/Nero/Acosmist. I have town reads on both Zabriel and Nero. And well, I'm not suicidal. Yeah, I know I'm not living long, but still. That would be a waste.

Vote: Tammy

I'm kinda with Benmage now. Tammy probably won't play ball.

@aco - does it say only night actions used against you?
p.edit: fck you daykiller for confirming day actions. But please, answer Aco.

I want Kise to explain this in more detail.

[Kublai Khan]

Eh. He would have just claimed he missed it.

[Kublai Khan]

@Yates - The better path for you to take would have been to convince Tammy that Acosmist is bluffing.

[Kublai Khan]

@Benmage - Tammy does have a point. As SK, she doesn't have anything to gain by shooting you.

However she won't deign to test Acosmist's claim. So vote remains.

[Kublai Khan]

This game Day is not going anywhere. Tammy has a cop guilty on her. Her death resolves multiball spec.

[Kublai Khan]

Changed my mind.

Vote: Acosmist

[Kublai Khan]

Anyone not voting Tammy right now is a good lynch candidate tomorrow.

This applies a fortiori now.

There's that constant stream of self-preservation that'll make the wagon grow. Keep it up.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh hey, It's another patented Acosmist case.

- OMGUS vote
- No other reasoning
- Mentioning day-talk

You have literally done NOTHING else this game. How are you town?

[Kublai Khan]

ITS BEEN 20 pages of NOTHING since I claimed COP.

Yeah, yeah. We know your claim. Quit fucking bloating the game with multi-posts and let grown-ups talk.

1) Yes, Tammy will say whatever to survive. However she will also do whatever to survive. She's outed, but as SK all she has to do is survive. She will gladly kill and has no target preference. There is no logical reason why she won't play ball, bide her time, and hope an opportunity opens up somehow.
2) DayKill choice will be done the same way as lynches. Majority.
3) Scum can influence the kill, but no more then they can influence a normal lynch. Town gets to double lynch.
4) Only flaw is that she won't target Acosmist, but he's been scummy as fuck, so today is as good as any to remove him from the equation.
5) Of the known roles, Scum have to choose between killing the Cop (who will likely be protected), a known SK, other lesser town roles (Hi, Nero Cain), or an unknown.

I think it's more likely that scum are pushing for the Tammy-lynch to save themselves the trouble of NKing her. I also think you're unwittingly helping them. Your fear of being shot tomorrow is retarded. Stop hyperventilating and AtE-ing and go away for 24 hours. Come back with a logical state of mind.

[Kublai Khan]

This is ridiculous. I keep checking the game to see if we've lynched Tammy yet. The fuck are you people thinking?

1) Yes, Tammy will say whatever to survive. However she will also do whatever to survive. She's outed, but as SK all she has to do is survive. She will gladly kill and has no target preference. There is no logical reason why she won't play ball, bide her time, and hope an opportunity opens up somehow.

Why risk fucking up our position like that?

What position?

Scum need to eliminate the SK. We helped them by uncovering her. We don't need to lynch her for them too.

[Kublai Khan]

KK this is awesome! Lets keep talking about Tammy and the pros an cons of keeping here alive..

No. We made our arguments. Mine on logic, yours on speculation. I'm going to shut up now and go to work soon. You're the one that's going to keep spamming the thread to bully to get your way.

BTW - A good player who is a cop with a guilty result on Day 2 in a large game shouldn't fucking claim right away. You list her as top scum and shut your mouth and keep fucking investigating. Then if you were to die, we can ISO you and say "Oh! Benmage listed Tammy as super-scummy without reason. It must be because he investigated her". Your bullshit "Lynch her now! I've got a guilty! I'm a great player!" whinning is bush league and I've got very little respect or tolerance for your opinion.

[Kublai Khan]

FOS: Kublai Khan

I like the part where you quote me and show me where my logic is wrong.

Wake me when that happens.

[Kublai Khan]

Figured I didn't want to mislynch, and had a guilty. Didn't expect to hit an SK.

You understand the fundamentals that Mafia and Third Party are separate factions right? That one can't win if the other is still alive?

I understand your argument that the mafia will likely influence the SK kill-choice. But remember that we essentially get double-lynch days. Instead of Lynch/NK/Lynch/NK/etc, we get Lynch/Lynch/NK/Lynch/Lynch/NK/etc. That scenario is not in scum's benefit. Scum will push to lynch Tammy so they can target someone else.

P-Edit - @AngryPidgeon - Yes we can scum-hunt just fine. Consider the last fucking sentence above.

[Kublai Khan]

probably where Tammy already refused to kill me (it was proposed! Read the game!), so the set of possible worlds where the SK does not do what town says and screws up your whole retarded plan includes this world!

So how about we remove you from the game as the sole person she has refused to target?

Which is awesome because you've been scummy at worst and abso-fucking-lutely useless at best, my OMGUS-ing friend.

[Kublai Khan]

why risk kingmaker or some nonesense like that?

Why would scum risk a kingmaker?

[Kublai Khan]

If we dont lynch tammy I bet we will have the exact same arguments until the end of the game.

Only if you guys keep bringing it up. If Tammy isn't lynched today, you guys lost the argument and need to let it go.

@AngryPidgeon - You'd have more support for my lynch if your case consisted of something other than "KK disagrees with me, therefore scum". I've argued that lynching Tammy is in scum's benefit. You've had no counter except to attack the messenger.

[Kublai Khan]

@KK: No, there are too many unknowns right now and it really is a high risk / high reward scenario. The fact that the town is derping like mad over it makes it even less worth it.

But then WHEN do we lynch Tammy if not today? Are you assuming scum will try and NK prob BP Tammy?

Pushing the idea that she must be BP and so we should lynch her is a

scummy

argument.

Everyone keeps talking about this BULLSHIT that Tammy has to 'play to her wincon'

She can do w/e the fuck she wants and shoot whoever she wants as long as she says "Well Im town, and I thought that person was scum. Im not going to shoot someone I think is town"

We lynch her if she does that. You understood that part, right?

[Kublai Khan]

Omfg thats not going to happen KK. Lets see you think tammy is SK correct? You sah she already lost no matter correct? Why in the fuck would someone you 100% believe is in that situation would play for the town for 2 months of her real life, all the while kinda still putting a facade that she is town?

Read my posts. They anticipate your counter-arguments.

1) Yes, Tammy will say whatever to survive. However she will also do whatever to survive. She's outed, but as SK all she has to do is survive. She will gladly kill and has no target preference. There is no logical reason why she won't play ball, bide her time, and hope an opportunity opens up somehow.

Show me the "incredible failure" in my argument. First, read my arguments though.

The chance of her being "day scum" is pretty fucking dumb and I only threw the possibility out there to see if scum would try to use it as an argument.

"SO MANY UNKNOWNS!" is also a very bad argument as it could generically de-rail any lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

Lol

There are no words

Then write some, dumbass.

Your argument is the following:

1. Tammy not lynched
2. Next day, Tammy shoots whoever she wants.
3. Tammy is lynched.
4. ???
5. Profit?

Wheras my argument is:

1. Tammy not lynched.
2. Tammy does what town wants.
3. Scum forced to try to NK her.
4. Win-win for town.

Why are you against a win-win argument? What is the logic behind Tammy shooting someone not town-chosen?

I can't make this any clearer. I don't want to break out hand puppets. Someone please make an argument that isn't "Khan is wrong, therefore scum".

P.Edit:

Pushing the idea that she must be BP and so we should lynch her is a scummy argument.

Misrep. I'm legitimalte asking you. WHEN do we lynch her then? you keep saying that if she isn't lynched today, then the discussion ends and everyone is happy. Wrong. Unless you think scum are going to NK her, she WILL be here and she WILL distract from actually playing the game.

We don't lynch her. Scum needs to kill her to win. Scum HAS to kill her. Even if she's x-shot BP, scum has to waste their NKs to kill her. We can only legitimately help scum by leaving her alive. The most massive downside if she shoots on her own is that we are only 1 townie down.

[Kublai Khan]

We can only legitimately help scum by leaving her alive.

EDIT: We can only legitimately help scum by lynching her.

(Should be obvious from my arguments though.)

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry. Got swamped at work and am putting in some overtime. Wait for my post tonight.

[Kublai Khan]

Not hammertime though.

[Kublai Khan]

Plus scum aldo habe a say on who to shoot.

Scum also have a say on who we lynch. So by your logic, we shouldn't lynch either. Right?

Oh look KK, Tammy ALREADY DIDN'T SHOOT WHO WE TOLD HER TO. GUESS TODAY IS THE DAY TO LYNCH HER, RIGHT? RIGHT!

That's because you idiots who were spamming the thread with "Prove your claim!" "Shoot him!" "No, him!" didn't really stop to think about it at any point, did you?

1804 is KK being a dick. Yay, I found a friend. Scum as hell btw if I were KK and made that post. If he is scum I know what manipulation he did there. It's pretty nice in that case. Not so cool as town. Snifit knows.

I don't know what any of this means. The only manipulation I was trying to do was to try to get scum to NK Tammy.

The worst part is that the posture everyone is taking is probably one they would make as town or scum so infind all of this to be fluff and null.

Well, you know that Tammy isn't scum with AurorusVox, right?

So if you were scum, and a cop outs themselves with a guilty on someone not in your mafia group... You jump on that wagon.

The wagon stalled? Shit, start fighting the arguments. The counter-arguments are decent? SHIT. Double-down on disproven arguments! Active Lurk! DO NOT ENGAGE IN INTELLIGENT DISCUSSION.

I have made a very fucking good argument for why Tammy shouldn't be lynched. I used small succint sentences for maximum clarity and people on the wagon balked at the idea of doing something logical, but couldn't quite verbalize why my idea was bad. The counter-arguments are just getting bizarre and stupid.

"Tammy could be BP!"
-- Wild (anti-town) speculation. Who the fuck is crying over the idea of scum shooting kevlar?

"Tammy won't listen and will shoot wildly!"
-- Tammy doesn't have a choice. We don't need her permission for this. We point. She shoots. Or she dies.

"We must lynch a guilty result!"
-- Dogmatic thinking is the shittiest reason to do anything. Stop playing mafia is this is your argument.

"We have to deal with the SK"
-- So does scum. Especially if the SK is helping town.

"She could be part of a faction!"
-- Great. We control that faction's kill while Tammy is alive. What's the problem?

Am I missing anything? Why is town still on Tammy's wagon?

[Kublai Khan]

Who's scum on Tammy's wagon:

snifit - dogmatic "guilty = lynch" thinking and thinks SKs will shoot randomly for little gain before getting lynched.

Acosmist - Dogmatic "guilty = lynch" thinking. But he's scum.

Kise - "The extra daykill really isn't needed. You guys need more confidence." (Scum)

Benmage - Is so gung-ho that Tammy should be lynched that he's actively putting forth reasons why she shouldn't be night-killed. Either a shitty town-cop or a pretty good lyncher.

AngryPidgeon - Lots of shitty arguments then (Post 1921) where he looks for his out off the wagon. Smart enough to know better. Poss. scum.

pidgey - Thinks Tammy is a ditzy maverick.

mykonian - No reasoning given. Just wants to shut down talk at this point. Poss. scum.

WrathChild - Dogmatic "guilty = lynch" thinking. Possibly illiterate.

Acosmist, Kise, AngryPidgeon and/or Mykonian are suspects regardless of how Tammy flips.

[Kublai Khan]

@Acosmist & Kise

- Why is town still on Tammy's wagon?

Neither of you have put forth a good unanswered reason why we should lynch her and have ignored my posts why we shouldn't. This is your last ditch effort to convince me that you're not scum. Right now scum gains from lynching Tammy so they don't have to waste a night-kill on her. Justify your attempts to end the day by hiding behind Benmage's syphilitic ramblings.

[Kublai Khan]

But she made the choice of ThAdmiral because she was pressured to prove her "vig" claim.

And if she didn't shoot the cop, who is one of the most powerful town roles, what is the damage you think she'll do that out-weighs the benefit of leashing her?

[Kublai Khan]

Anyone Not Voting Tammy

What is your reason for not voting her?

1. Do you doubt Benmage’s guilty? If so why aren’t you voting him as Town has no reason to fake a guilty Day 2.
2. Do you want to ‘leash’ Tammy? If so please provide a link to a Theme game where leashing a killer resulted in overall Pro-Town results. Because I feel VERY, VERY strongly it is stupid and can provide many links showing that ‘leashing’ a non-Town killer results in disaster.

1. I'm not really doubting the guilty. But the insistence of a lynch bothers me.
2. I'd prefer you ISO me and read my posts on the matter. I'm not going to read random large themes to try to prove a point. Even if I find 5 great leashing strategies, it's likely not going to sway anyone so the work-to-reward ratio is not beneficial.

[Kublai Khan]

shooting townies?

Is that worse than lynching townies?

@KK, it's all opinion based and if what I said isn't really seen as being a strong reason, that's your take on it. The thing that I'm on is that she read guilty and not neutral, but even if she IS SK and not 2nd mafia, she knows she's screwed and she also knows a few power roles. I suspect she'd sooner spite us by killing Ben or Nero. Why even trust her after all that her antagonists have said? She knows how we feel. There's really no turning back to try and get her to play nice with the promise she make somehow win. I HIGHLY doubt she wastes her time being a puppet.

She has nothing to lose by being a puppet except the game itself. Add to that she's a competent scum-hunter.

I don't get the argument that she will suddenly decide to shoot Benmage or Nero Cain. Why didn't she shoot either of them today? Hell, why didn't she shoot Benmage before he even claimed on her?

@KK bullet for me why you are voting Acosmist.

* Failure to do any original scum-hunting
* Votes and suspects only people that express suspicion towards him
* Essentially he's been coasting on his claim. He's protected himself from any night-activity and responds to any pressure with aggressive OMGUS.
* If he didn't claim PGO (which, as it's pointed out, any early claim should be treated as a VT), would you think he was town?

-You keep saying she points she shoots or she dies. Well eventually she won't obey. And when she doesn't it could be more detrimental to town than, than attempting to "leash" her.

That's scum's problem. If town gets to double lynch, scum have to put a stop to that. The advantage to town is too great. You keep giving scum reasons not to kill her and I keep shaking my head in disbelief.

Yes she does. She can say anything as long as she backs it up with "Im not shhoting X, I have a townread there. Im town so I wont shoot town". And if she IS on a team, then she absolutely will shoot whoever she wants before going out.

If she fails to shoot the requested player, she gets lynched. Why is leashing such a complicated concept?
Why is the second scumteam theory so entrenched in you? There is zero evidence to support it. Occam's razor says SK.

Seriously, anybody arguing FOR the existence of a second scumteam without any in-thread evidence is scum.

Even if Tammy flips Town or God Of Mafia or Coolest Role, if we dont lynch her, i'll stop believing in a greated good. My life will turn into a complete empty void of sadness and this game will keep going with the same idiotic discussion that has been happening for the last 30 pages.

You could answer any of my questions instead of AtEing. Y'know like town might do.

[Kublai Khan]

Why is the second scumteam theory so entrenched in you? There is zero evidence to support it. Occam's razor says SK.

Im saying its possible. The only reason Tammy has ANY reason to not just throw in the towel by now is if she is on a team. And Wrath Child is looking like an obvious Tammy buddy.

It's improbable. Unless you want to claim some role related knowledge, I'm not making plans around unfounded wild theories.

And how does one "throw in the towel" in a mafia game?

[Kublai Khan]

Phone posting. First, anyone who is bitching about the size of the discussion while multi posting their thoughts and flooding with pictures needs to stop.

Second, I'll respond to counter arguments later tonight, but it's felling like the Tammy wagoners are more interested in justifying leaving their vote where it is then examine the reason why it's there to begin with. People not on either wagon need to speak up.

Also angry pigeon is scum.

[Kublai Khan]

@MagnaofIllusion - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p4467445

[Kublai Khan]

Like the normal lynch is more likely to hit town than scum. Assuming the daykill is directed by majority vote, anything that makes lynching good (as opposed to no lynch) also makes having an extra kill good.

No, it's a terrible idea. Town's advantage is having as many days as possible to analyze Vote Counts, interactions, and posts. Leashing a non-Town killer helps shorten this time frame significantly.

No, it doesn't. That's the point. It doubles the amount of days lynches that town has and halves the number of night-kills that scum has. It turns this game into a Double Day setup.

[Kublai Khan]

So what? That doesn't mean it is the best move for Town ... it's not. Again - we clearly disagree on this on a Mafia Discussion level. Quoting a Wiki Page isn't going to change that ...

Oh, you'd best believe this is going to be a MD discussion when this game is done.

[Kublai Khan]

Someone should tell MagnaofIllusion that he's capable of being wrong. But break it to him gently. His worldview will be shattered.

I don't think "you'll never be able to convince otherwise" has ever been a pro-town attitude.

[Kublai Khan]

So you think MoI is town?

He's disagreeing with me, so obviously not.

In seriousness, I don't know. I was just ISOing Zoroaster since he never stuck out. The ISO confirms that he was just sorta there... Could have been actively lurking, could be just overwhelmed. I'm not sure. Didn't like his early jasonT1981 vote, though. I'm wary of the slot. Got a bad feeling, but can't quantify it. MagnaofIllusion is a more active player, so it'll be more readable as the game goes.

I want to know how much and what portions of the thread he had read before asking his opening questions on the Tammy/Banmage situation.

@MagnaofIllusion - what's your read on Acosmist?

[Kublai Khan]

He will not make it to far in the game if he is faking scum as the claim will eventually be tested by some role.

Wait, what? Why would someone potentially suicide themselves?

@KK – So where is your case on Acos for me to review?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p4470800

But I don't understand how you can read him as town. He's done nothing but declare suspects via OMGUS. How much coasting can a player do before you call him scum?

I dunno, I think KK and Mykonian are prob scum now.

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this.

----
I'm not in love with the pidgey wagon, but it's better than Tammy.

[Kublai Khan]

Also you dont even know if scum or sk have tricks off their sleave like some sort of extra kill, poisoning, etc. So really your ideology of this game is just outstandingly incredibly bad if you somehownare not scum.

Boy, what if lynching Tamy makes town auto-lose. Playing the hypothetical game gets you nowhere.

Still waiting for a single person to actually show outcomes in non-Vanilla Double Day games are better for Town than the average non-Vanilla game. Imagine I am going to be waiting a long, long time and will be seeing more derp like this.

MagnaofIllusion wants to play follow-the-cop instead of scum-hunting?

Yes, double day makes it so town powers can't act, but guess what? Scum can't kill. Benefit outweigh loss.

@MagnaofIllusion - Would you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK scummy?

THOSE KEEPING TAMMY ALIVE: Who would you have her shoot tomorrow? Cast your votes now.

Why? I'd rather adjust my reads after a non-Tammy flip.

[Kublai Khan]

Also you dont even know if scum or sk have tricks off their sleave like some sort of extra kill, poisoning, etc. So really your ideology of this game is just outstandingly incredibly bad if you somehownare not scum.

Boy, what if lynching Tamy makes town auto-lose. Playing the hypothetical game gets you nowhere.

Still waiting for a single person to actually show outcomes in non-Vanilla Double Day games are better for Town than the average non-Vanilla game. Imagine I am going to be waiting a long, long time and will be seeing more derp like this.

MagnaofIllusion wants to play follow-the-cop instead of scum-hunting?

Yes, double day makes it so town powers can't act, but guess what? Scum can't kill. Benefit outweigh loss.

@MagnaofIllusion - Would you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK scummy?

THOSE KEEPING TAMMY ALIVE: Who would you have her shoot tomorrow? Cast your votes now.

Why? I'd rather adjust my reads after a non-Tammy flip.

[Kublai Khan]

Well to this point that is exactly what you (and everyone else) who is proposing leashing Tammy is doing since it is, as far as I can see, 100% opinion that DoubleDay style play is superior in a non-Vanilla environment. Again … feel free to prove me wrong on that.

You understand game balance, right?

Double-Days are rarely, if at all, non-vanilla because having two lynches is a huge advantage to town. So much of an advantage that they don't need additional power roles.

2. You keep playing this balancing act where you are trying to assert it is scummy to want to lynch on a Cop Guilty while asserting that you believe Benmage is Town and believe his results.

Yes, do you not understand the argument? Cop has a guilty on someone who is not on the scum faction. Scum will wagon that like no tomorrow and have much to gain from having town lynch someone that they ordinarily have to night-kill.

Frankly I don’t quite get that but … heck … I didn’t get your strong defense of scum in Scummies 2012 either.

"I can't counter Khan's arguments, so let me bring up the fact that he's been wrong in the past."

Classy low blow. Not a town mindset argument, though.

Passing over the obvious relational tells benefits of an extended game? Why is that? Ignoring my direct example where the Serial Killer being effective nullified all game long made it too difficult for scum to win? Why is that?

Giving the SK's power to town hurts scum. Scum must kill the SK. What is difficult about understanding the concept. How come you can only talk about and ask for precedents? Why can't you logic right?

@MagnaofIllusion - Would you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK scummy?

Would I consider them what? For lynching? For a book club?

My sentence structure is correct. It's just a little muddled. I'm asking if you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK to be scummy.

[Kublai Khan]

To answer why @KK:

1) Lessens the time deciding what to do tomorrow if Tammy lives past today
2) Shows whether a majority decision CAN be made in the first place without butting heads
3) The less time spent talking about who to shoot, the more time to analyze post-flip why people voted for so and so to be shot

Weren't you one of the people bitching about the length of the game so far? How come now you want to shoehorn in a whole separate discussion? How does it impact whether or not you vote for Tammy? Do you realize that if we have the discussion you're proposing now, it only informs the mafia kill?

So many questions. I'm really, really, really ok with a Kise lynch. He's totally scum.

@mastin2 - I'm leaning scum-MagnaofIllusion.

[Kublai Khan]

Tl /Dr ... spam spam

WE HAVE 2? DAYS TO DEADLINE AND HAVENT AGREED ON 1 LYNCH.

HOW WILL WE EVER AGREE ON A DOUBLE LYNCH.

Replace out. Let someone who doesn't make derp arguments, doesn't spam up the thread, and actually might contribute something to the game instead of incessantly whining. Then we can get more done. kthxbye.

[Kublai Khan]

Alright, then.
1: Join me on his wagon. We're flashwagoning either him or WC, but pidgey's off the table, at least for today.

Hm..

vote: MagnaofIllusion

You realize I'd be way more in favor of a Kise-lynch, right?

We haven't come to a lynch.... one lynch. And you want to use a double day? I just erased such plausibility. Bam. Get fucked.

> Fights against a good plan
> Argues plan is bad because it hasn't happened yet

Benmage is the GOP of this game.

[Kublai Khan]

I dunno, I think KK and Mykonian are prob scum now.

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this.

[Kublai Khan]

My sentence structure is correct. It's just a little muddled. I'm asking if you consider the players who are strongly pushing the idea that Tammy is part of a scum faction instead of an SK to be scummy.

No, not at this stage with the information I have access to. I’d lean that it is probably more likely we are in a Mafia + Serial Killer set-up given the size of the game but it would not be astonishing for it to be Multiball.

Do you think that it is inherently scummy at this stage?

Absolutely yes.

By nature, mafia have more knowledge of the game setup than town does. Most notably, they know the size of their scum group. If they feel that their scum group feels small and under-powered, then they are more likely to suspect that there is a second mafia group. If there isn't, then they will cry foul about town being over-powered.

I broke down and argued against all the counter-arguments to keeping Tammy alive in Post 1933. Your desire for a Tammy lynch falls under the dogmatic uncreative category of "We must follow-the-cop". I think you're better than that. Also, you've asking to examples in order to compare situations in theme games against each other. Then when you're given a link to double-day, you cry that the sample size is too small. There's never going to be the proper information to convince you of anything, so you're camping your vote behind dogma. I've made the point (and mastin2 recently echoed it) that scum are very likely to have jumped on the Tammy wagon in masse, but you've dismissed that argument seemingly giving it barely any thought beyond mockery.

But at least I understand the dogmatic argument, and it could come from town, that's why I would hesitate to vote pidgey. But, the factional argument? As a primary reason for wanting to lynch Tammy? There's no basis for it in the game that I can see. Players like AngryPidgeon are arguing a hypothetical that tips the fact that they know something about the setup that I don't. Which heavily implies scum.

Is my reasoning wrong?

Nope. This is completely wrong. Scum benefit from keeping her alive to kill Townies (like ThAd) and make the reduction of Town's first strength (Numbers, which is very important) go as fast as possible. And as long as scum can do a good enough job 'manipulating' the Town direction of her shots that is a very compelling reason to keep her alive.

The reason I'm voting you and why I think you might be scum is that fact that you're arguing this exact point. I find it hard to believe that as town you think that all scum are exactly as competent and arrogant as you are.

How about we just get the PGO claim our of the way today?

Oy. Where were you when I was trying to find a crew for that ship?

You are scum because of your opinions on the Tammy wagon. You are trying to spread dissension and bullshit under the guise of logic. You keep repeatedly ignoring my point that the Tammy discussion is ultimately anti-town and just keep stirring the pot and calling everyone on the wagon scum at various points. You implied that all the lurkers on the wagon are scum coasting who have given up arguing 'good logic'. Then you said that I am scum for still fighting the good fight. (Note that you don't think Benmage is scum, just derp which is a double standard). And now MoI is scum for having opinions.

This is becoming a disgusting trend in my ongoings that people (read Mastin, since KK is probably scum) need to get: OPINIONS ON MAFIA THEORY ARE NOT SCUMTELLS.

Wow. You wrote "OPINIONS ON MAFIA THEORY ARE NOT SCUMTELLS" in all caps after saying that I'm "trying to spread dissension and bullshit under the guide of logic".

Fucking wow.

@mastin2 - How the hell do you have a townread on this guy?

[Kublai Khan]

I find it hard to believe that as town you think that all scum are exactly as competent and arrogant as you are.

What does this mean? MoI is the only person making the point that scum are probably scattered and not 100% on/off the wagon. (Actually Benmage may have too).

Cop claims guilty on Serial Killer.

Easy scum play: Wagon and Lynch SK. No risk, no repercussions.
Hard scum play: Fight tooth and nail against a wagon of a threat to scum in order to maybe manipulate the day-kill.

Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, and you are arguing that scum would rather take the hard road and are naming scum suspects accordingly.

mykonian, mastin2, and myself are arguing that scum likely took the easy road, then tried to spam, bullshit, and bully along the Tammy lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

I find it hard to believe that as town you think that all scum are exactly as competent and arrogant as you are.

What does this mean? MoI is the only person making the point that scum are probably scattered and not 100% on/off the wagon. (Actually Benmage may have too).

Cop claims guilty on Serial Killer.

Easy scum play: Wagon and Lynch SK. No risk, no repercussions.
Hard scum play: Fight tooth and nail against a wagon of a threat to scum in order to maybe manipulate the day-kill.

Benmage, MagnaofIllusion, and you are arguing that scum would rather take the hard road and are naming scum suspects accordingly.

mykonian, mastin2, and myself are arguing that scum likely took the easy road, then tried to spam, bullshit, and bully along the Tammy lynch.

*-Now with less quote fuck-up.

[Kublai Khan]

Gotta head to work, so I'll respond to the bigger post later.

Easy scum play: Wagon and Lynch SK. No risk, no repercussions.

Clearly this isn't close to accurate

FROM YOUR OWN PERSPECTIVE

as

YOU YOURSELF

are saying "Whelp, all the scum quick piled on that wagon". Scum aren't in a habit of all lumping themselves easily into a readily reliable group that makes them easy pickings for Town to string lynch and the fact that your floating that as what happened is at best laughable.

But this isn't laughable. Mafia love to jump on a cop's guilty bandwagon. It's the safest possible reason to wagon someone.

@Yates.. Isn't it 24 hours?

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: AngryPidgeon

[Kublai Khan]

Don't see scum in the BC/WC slot. It was talked about lynching them today but I don't see anything major.

What would have changed between yesterday and today?

Also, what's in the mykonian quotes that justifies your vote? I'm not seeing it.

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh. Been putting in a lot of OT and my brain is fried. Kise is making sense.

I'm going to

V/LA

until Thursday. At which point I'll be off from work for a few days and can re-read.

unvote

[Kublai Khan]

Was skimming along and reading on my phone at work last night.

mastin2 is super-town. AngryPidgeon is still scum. Acosmist is still scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Let me state a last time my position on you, MoI. You are on my soft-ignore list. This is the last time i adress directly a part of one of your post.

That's what scum like to do when the facts hit them on the chin like a well placed haymaker.

They throw up their hands, cry "It's all bullshit", take their ball, run home, and pray that people buy the AtE of 'frustration' as opposed to noticing they aren't capable of supporting their positions with Townie motivation.

Isn't that what I did as town when you last tunneled me in the Team Mafia game? I distinctly remember asking my team what to do as town in the situation and was advised to just ignore you.

And yes, I am soft defending Elscouta because I have a soft town-read on her.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm keeping you on the scum side of null, MagnaofIllusion.

When you're town, you tend to be really obvious. But in this game you've been just... sleazy.

[Kublai Khan]

Oh, we're lynching Acosmist today?

Vote: Acosmist

[Kublai Khan]

Hey everybody...

Re-read Day 3 to try to get a handle on this game again. mykonian, zabriel, AngryPidgeon, and Acosmist stick out as scum.

Do you still think that suggesting 2 teams was scummy given that Tammy flipped SK?

Yes. Scum had everything to gain by pushing so hard for Tammy to be lynched. The "she's in a scum-group" theory reeks of desperate justification to avoid jumping off the lynch. The fact that you continued to argue that it was a viable theory as you were shopping for someone non-Acosmist to lynch means that not even you believed it. You and Acosmist are clearly scum together.

Also since you were so certain before Tammy’s flip that she had to be a Serial Killer care to explain why I shouldn’t be considering that a sign that you know this is Singleball due to role PM reasons?

Tammy (group scum with daykill) would have killed Benmage (cop) with barely any hesitation.

Wrath / Peregrine / jason / KK - Please review the Eloscuta information and really think about your read on Eloscuta.

I'm not sold. A lot of it seems propped up by badgering. The indecision between you & mastin2 being scum is understandable. Both of you are massive word regurgitators and therefore can both simultaneously make good and bad arguments.

@MagnaofIllusion - Can you expand a bit on why your ISO of Acosmist leads you to think he's town? Because he's been horrible and transparently scummy as fuck.

[Kublai Khan]

My interest in Elo as possible scum goes back to Post 2238 where I point out he is sheeping a case he says he doesn’t actually agree with.

The problem with this whole aspect of your case is that it's heavily OMGUS-y and lacking on overall logic.

Such as: Why wouldn't scum-Elcousta just vote for SK-Tammy? Why prolong the day and risk self/scummates saying something stupid and drawing attention?

(Yes, I know you're going to dodge the question, eyeroll, call me stupid, etc. But please just answer the question without being a dick for once.)

The push for the 1v1 on this day was an oddish move though. There's nothing to be gained by you and mastin2 going all balls to the walls against each other.

Though I agree with his point that it was weird that you "humored" mastin2 with the idea one day, then dropped it the next. What was the point of baiting mastin2?

Why exactly should I bother again? You’ve already drawn your conclusion.

Because I'm not as stubborn as you?

Read those ISOs and tell me that this game doesn’t resemble his Town game. Or don't since I doubt your reaction will resemble mine.

Only two games? That's a very small sample size!

^ See? Total MagnaofIllusion reaction.

(I'll read them over later)

[Kublai Khan]

I'm starting to get the impression that MagnaofIllusion could type up a case on why the mod is scum.

[Kublai Khan]

btw its encouraged SK tammy to shoot BENMAGE THE COP lol im bad at writing

That's kinda the big one, Thor665. Not once, not twice, not three times, but 5 different posts after Benmage claimed cop with a guilty on Tammy and Tammy claimed dayvig.

[Kublai Khan]

btw its encouraged SK tammy to shoot BENMAGE THE COP lol im bad at writing

That's kinda the big one, Thor665. Not once, not twice, not three times, but 5 different posts after Benmage claimed cop with a guilty on Tammy and Tammy claimed dayvig.

What was his stated justification for that?
Because that almost seems too blatant to possibly come from scum to my mind.

Pretty much what you just said:

It's not making sense. The last thing I would do as scum would be to tell the SK to kill the cop for me.

But I'm not a fan of the WIFOM-y "too scummy to be scum" defense. I've played badly and escaped nooses thanks to town thinking that.

Meaning that if tammy was town, she should have shot the fakeclaiming cop. However, if she was scum, benmage flipping would confirm her as scum. If she were scum, she couldn't kill benmage, if she was town she had to.

If you had only suggested it once or twice, then I'd be more willing to accept this explanation. Five times is pressuring.

@KK

– How’s that Acosmist reading coming? Oh, did you forget you said you would do that and instead just wanted to come and active lurk?

Okay, it's been less than 24 hours since you linked and, with the deadline looming, an Acosmist lynch is pretty unlikely. But since you seem to be in a rush to know RIGHT NOW what I think:
I've skimmed his ISOs and I see where you are coming from. As scum he had a more aggressive verbose style and as town he had a more defensive style. However it's still a very small sample size of ONE game each. And you have the burden of explaning why you think it's likely that scum-Acosmist isn't capable of replicating his town-meta.

@Elscouta

- Not the time for games. Deadline is looming. Claim. If I don't see a claim in the next hour, I'm voting you.

[Kublai Khan]

Vote: Elscouta

[Kublai Khan]

@Yates - Do you really think scum would need to do a "whoops, lol!" hammer to lynch Elscouta?

@Nero Cain - What is your flavor?

@Acosmist - Do only Metal Gear characters die if they target you?

[Kublai Khan]

Do not answer that.

Why?

[Kublai Khan]

Yes this is a 1 on 1 and im fkn sure about this.

Nobody cares.

[Kublai Khan]

V la for 3 days. At Disney.

[Kublai Khan]

Kublai Khan:

Why has your activity level dropped off so much?

You were EXTREMELY active on day two, but somewhat less active on day three--yet still a strong presence there.

Today, not so much. You've kinda disappeared, so I'd like an explanation as to why.

Also, could you remind me of who your suspects are and why? I'm looking for not just two or three names, but more like your top five or six. (That's more scum than I think there are, but I don't want just who you think is scum, I also want who you think could be scum, and basically, who you're willing to lynch and why.)

V la for 3 days. At Disney.

Just got back last night. I'll be read up and have a quality post by tonight later on.

[Kublai Khan]

Okay, this game is giving me a headache trying to keep up.

Let me get things straight. Nero Cain is a neighborizer who is 3-shot. Can neighborizer multiple people a night, instantaneously, but suddenly is out of shots when the idea to target the PGO (who doesn't kill instantaneously) emerges.

@Nero Cain - Why didn't you come up with a plan to target Acosmist/someone else on Night 1? Surely you recognize that your ability is basically useless unless you can use it to confirm someone nigh-unnightkillable with your death, right? Why waste it on random people? Why use up two last night?

Speaking of Acosmist, why is AngryPidgeon obsessed with him? He has repeated listed Acosmist as town (421, 508, 667, 1162, 1839, 2218) yet he constantly asks a variety of other people for their reads on Acosmist (943, 1568, 1590, 1668, 1674, 1803, 2336, 2337, 2395, 2448, 2524). Why ask for people's reads on someone you have a town read on?

He never lists a reason why he thinks Acosmist is town aside from his claim (667) but doesn't seem to care that the claim is iffy (2446) and even says he'd support a policy lynch of Acosmist (1162) and admits that Acosmist has been useless (408, 2722) but he's repeatedly attacked anyone else who suggests it (943, 1661, 1666, 2395, 2524).

When the Tammy wagon stagnated, AngryPidgeon was willing to vote Kise (1480) and WrathChild (1921, 2162). But when Acosmist was the leading counter-wagon, he dug in his heels the most and argued that Tammy must be the lynch of that day (too numerous to mention) despite the fact that after thAdmiral was killed, he was one of the ones arguing to leash Tammy (1433, 1461).


Bonus: The only time that AngryPidgeon directly addresses Acosmist about anything prior to today is here:

Acosmist, you should help us lynch Elscouta.

To which Acosmist does (2703) for no listed reason. Prior to that the only time that Acosmists mentions Elscouta was to call him useless for not reading/responding to MagnaofIllusion's bad case.

Now today, AngryPidgeon finally wants to test Acosmists' claim by sending either the neighborizer or the messenger to target Acosmist. Why not earlier?

Can I finally get some support for this?
VOTE: AngryPidgeon

Also, I know nobody cares because Elscouta was lynched and it's all old news and all. But he made some good points on AngryPidgeon (2646, 2677) that were mostly ignored because he was being wagoned.

[Kublai Khan]

I could support AP lynch today, I would much rather lynch Zab though.

Is that the case that AngryPidgeon is pushing? He better have a word with AngryPidgeon then.

@zabriel Sometimes mods will not include main characters (I know crazy). And also sometimes they won't include them, BUT they will give them to scum as SAFECLAIMS.

This makes Zabriel town though, no? I mean as long as were giving jason town points for slipping . Except Zabriel is too new to likely be pulling a BS stunt.

FoS Kublai Khan

for his Zabriel case. Nope. For someone willing to give townpoints to jason for slipping, you don't see Zabriel's misunderstanding of safe claims to be townie? Especially considering hes not likely to be "purposely town slipping". Nope. And more nope. And a token 'why' tossed to Thadmiral about why he thinks the Zabriel wagon is shit.

[Kublai Khan]

@mastin2 - Did Tammy know that Nero Cain had a limited number of neighborizing shots (per discussion in QT)?

Also, I want a good reason why the messenger's name should stay secret.

@Nero Cain - Read this post carefully because I don't want a half-assed answer that doesn't have to do with what I'm saying.

This is what we know about your role:

1. You can target someone and talk to them via a quicktopic at night (neighborizing ability).
   
   • This happens instantaneously.
2. You have three shots.
   
3. You can target more than one person in one night (according to mastin2 here).

At the end of Day 1, you knew that there was a claimed PGO(ish?) role in this game.

Now your role only lets you talk to people at night. You can't investigate or protect or roleblock or do anything useful. So you know your role is perfect for testing a claim like Acosmists. Since it's of limited use (3-shot?), and it's instantaneous, AND you can target multiple people a night... Why didn't you come up with the following plan:

1. Target two (2) townreads on Night 1 and neighborize them.
2. Target Acosmist on Night 2 with your neighbors knowing of your plan.

Instead you targetted one person on Night 1, none during Night 2 and three during Night 3 and you're out. What was the logic behind your play strategy?

Why did you decide today that Acosmist's kill flavor needed to be known and tested?

Why shouldn't the mafia's roleblocker have been able to block you?

'cause the mafia roleblocker was dead you tool.

This was a poor answer. Let's say that the Mafia Roleblocker did not die on Day 1. Why would town have an ability to neighborize that is instantaneous and therefore Mafia cannot block it?

No. I'm out of shots. MOI

knew

I was out of shots so that’s why he said this

inb4 Nero claims to be out of uses / refuses to do so.

He was setting me up.

How did MagnaofIllusion

know

that you were out of shots? How could MagnaofIllusion know? I don't see anywhere where you said so in thread.

[Kublai Khan]

For those that aren't on board and/or maybe just don't understand why AngryPidgeon is scum, it's because of his Day 2 behavior and arguments.

This is his initial reaction when he realizes that Tammy is a Serial Killer:

The issue is that she is a thread to both teams and it benefits each team to let the OTHER team waste the lynch/kill on her.

and:

Benmage, Tammy is an SK. Her only hope of playing to her wincon is to at least try and look town for the time being. So doing something other than letter her shot be directed means she loses. Shes basically a dayvig right now. I get that you had to claim to out her, but that is a sunk cost. I think she is an asset right now.

I don't care if her shots are good. I care that she not be the one picking the shot.

So keep in mind that AngryPidgeon

absolutely

understands the arguments of both sides and potential strategies for dealing with an outed Serial Killer.

AngryPidgeon first votes for Tammy, stating that he was following the cop.

Then he tries to push a Kise wagon as a counter to a pigdey counter-wagon, then he moves his vote back to Tammy, saying:

Fine. I'm sold on the logic that it IS a high-risk/reward scenario (proof: Mastin is right that she provides a 2nd lynch, Ben is right that she isn't exactly trustworthy) that we dont necessarily need given that we are in a good situation. And I do not see why scum would kill her because the same logic applies: "Why NK her when the town will lynch her? Why lynch her when the scum team will NK her? Why ..." And if she was shot at last night, then she IS BP.

Note that none of that makes any sense. Benmage was only arguing that the risk was high to himself because he feared he might get shot the next day (which is still a horrible argument considering that Tammy had plenty of time to kill him after he claimed). So the "high-risk" was to one person that already wasn't killed and the high-reward is still high-reward.

So he starts becoming the most vocal supporter of the Tammy wagon, next to Benmage. Now Benmage is dead and flipped town cop. Now we know that it's entire possible for town to have an unwavering view of what needs to be done. But check Benmage's ISO. He never wavered. He grasped at unlikely straw after unlikely straw and didn't give a shit about counter-arguments. Arguments that Tammy must be bulletproof, or a part of a day-killing scum team, or uncontrollable were bad, sometimes to the point of retarded. But I never doubted that Benmage sincerely believed them.

AngryPidgeon is different. Read the first quote again. He fully understands the logic that scum gains by directing the town to lynch it's enemy. But then he fully rejects that theory to the point where he argues that mastin and I are not only stupid, but scummy for suggesting it. He fully understands that Tammy is in the position she HAS TO kill the town's pick or get lynched herself and then rejects it. Then does everything he can to push the theory that Tammy is too dangerous to let live. So AngryPidgeon's "hardcore non-comprimising" views mirror Benmage's and are demonstratively not his own.

Though, and this is still very notable, he only echoes Benmage's positions when Acosmist is the counter-wagon. When it breaks up and different people are being pushed as substitutes, then AngryPidgeon is happy to move his vote to WrathChild (also flipped town) before going back to Tammy.

So why would someone who repeatedly stated that arguing against a Tammy lynch is a waste of time and pages and that town is being derpy, then jump off to vote WrathChild? (Note that at the time his switched his vote to WrathChild, he was also calling mykonian scum for jumping off the Tammy wagon - Post 2162).
Why would someone pretend to not understand counter-arguments to a scum-benefiting plan when they do?

AngryPidgeon is scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Note that none of that makes any sense. Benmage was only arguing that the risk was high to himself because he feared he might get shot the next day (which is still a horrible argument considering that Tammy had plenty of time to kill him after he claimed). So the "high-risk" was to one person that already wasn't killed and the high-reward is still high-reward.

Given that there was no Kill N1, I thought it was a safe assumption that we had a doctor.

Since you stated twice that you thought she might be a BP, I'll take this to mean that you didn't target Tammy on Night 1.

Spoiler: evidence

Just a thought, what if Tammy is BP? Isn't it common for SK's to typically be BP or investigation immune? It could explain the lack of kill.

VOTE: Tammy

Fine. I'm sold on the logic that it IS a high-risk/reward scenario (proof: Mastin is right that she provides a 2nd lynch, Ben is right that she isn't exactly trustworthy) that we dont necessarily need given that we are in a good situation. And I do not see why scum would kill her because the same logic applies: "Why NK her when the town will lynch her? Why lynch her when the scum team will NK her? Why ..." And if she was shot at last night, then she IS BP.

The Tammy conversation was an enormous cirlcejerk that is evidently still rippling off aftershocks 4 days later.

You are the only one trying to squelch any conversation related to the Tammy lynch. It's a game event. Actions/arguments made during game events are the basis for making cases to lynch scum.

Your old point that the Tammy debate would stop if she weren't lynched i bullshit and I don't know where you got to that conclusion from.

Why are you launching into this distracting side argument? What does it have to do with your inconsistency regarding arguments to lynch/not lynch Tammy?

And I love how your argument against me being different than Ben hinges on Ben being dumb as justification for his support.

Yes, I do believe Benmage is dumb for his position on a mafia theory. But Benmage was consistent and committed to his beliefs. You weighed all options, then proceeded as if you were as convinced of yourself as Benmage was of himself.

For comparison, I also think MagnaofIllusion is dumb for not agreeing with me on what to do with a outed SK. But he's been consistent to the point of meta-consistency. He honestly believes in his actions, so he's probably town. Misguided town, but town. You argued like you never had any doubt in your mind that lynching Tammy was the proper course of action. But you previously expressed doubt and you moved your vote around. You are scum because there isn't agreement between what you say and do. You are duplicitous.

Re the other wagons: I derped. For some reason I though mastin was actually going to hardball a lynch successfully so I moved to one that I was prob-scum and not just retarded (Acosmist wagon).

So retarded that you now want his claimed checked? Why is your town-read on Acosmist wavering?

[Kublai Khan]

PEOPLE, TODAY THERE IS NO OTHER WAGON OTHER THAN ME AND MYKONIAN

Who put you in charge? My case on AngryPidgeon is solid and Nero Cain's role claim means his play makes no sense if everything is how he claimed. Comment on those.

Your 1v1 crap is just dumb and personal. Be more objective and quit being distracted by stupid shit.

[Kublai Khan]

My case on AngryPidgeon is solid

Ya, KK is probably scum.

I'm torn. OMGUS is actually a better case than the last two times you called me scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Spoiler: People complain I wall too much (all about AngryPidgeon)

What was the point of the third question? If Acosmist is scum he is going to say it works on everyone. If he is town, then him answering the question is anti-town. So what made you want to ask that?

Because the idea of Nero Cain testing him was being floated. If he said yes, then he's very likely to be scum.

@Yates - Do you really think scum would need to do a "whoops, lol!" hammer to lynch Elscouta?

And Yates clearly states he didn't care about the hammer. Were you caught up when you asked that?

Yes, Yates said it was the reasoning behind the hammer post, not the hammer itself. The "whoops, lol!" reasoning, if you will. This is a really dumb question in a series of dumb questions, are you trying anything to throw whatever at me to justify your new "KK is scum" position?

If you are arguing that I am scum for trying to get Tammy lynched and that being beneficial to scum, why do you also say I was looking for an out off the wagon:

AngryPidgeon - Lots of shitty arguments then (Post 1921) where he looks for his out off the wagon. Smart enough to know better. Poss. scum.

I wasn't, but you later assert that I am scum for arguing for the Tammy lynch. Yet you quote me saying Im willing to compromise on WC as also scum-motivated.

Your arguments are those of someone who is desperately trying to get a lynch through. Your actions are those of someone keeping options open to step off. I'm not going to repeat it again because I can't convince you that you are scum. You know what you are.

I think I asked you before - what happened to your theory that scum gave up arguing the Tammy wagon and were just lurk-a-derping through D2?

Some were, you weren't. When you flip scum I'll argue that you knew your teammates were all lined up in a row and that's why you want to discourage all discussion of the Tammy lynch.

KK is focusing on the Tammy wagon as a lynch pool and that is scummy. I realize a lot of players are doing that, but I really would expect KK to know that opinions are opinions and not indicative of alignment. He first argues that scum are likely lurking and voting Tammy because they cant keep up but later completely drops this to focus me, citing me changing opinions on it as scummy whilst avoiding commenting on Mykonian voting Tammy and then finding an absolutely terrible reason to keep her around for a single Day.

1) It is not scummy to focus on a small pool of players taking part in a reasonably scummy action. What is your reasoning for even saying such a thing?
2) I do know that opinions are opinions and not indicative of alignment. I've already stated such when saying that MagnaofIllusion is likely town. Also, no other player is looking into the Tammy lynch. Two bullshit arguments in one sentence.
3) Massive deflection instead of defense. Scum.

P-edit: ok. And you saying that 'your case is good' is scummy. Am I scum or not? You are self-praising your case and not actively trying to get support for it or encourage people to consider it / sheep it. It reminds me an awful lot of scum-Thor who builds up pretty cases and hides behind them and acts like they are bulletproof. Its a stupid way of backtracking when wrong (well my CASE was rock solid) and it makes you look like you believe in it. The phrasing of that sentence tells me that you are using your belief in your case as 'proof' that you believe I am scum and therefore are town. Its subtle.

1) Ignoring the context in which I said "My case is solid". I said it to pigdey who is trying to focus on a 1v1 when nobody cares.
2) Using someone else's meta to make me look scummy? Really?

Really?

3) My case is solid because it exposes you as scum. You aren't trying to argue that your actions were town-motivated instead you're trying to deflect, discredit, disregard, and OMGUS.

And what was your point about me wanting to get Acosmist tested. My plan, in the worst possible scenario (town Nero/messenger tests town Acosmist), is still pro-town and you are sidestepping that and calling me scummy for proposing it despite having a townread on Acosmist and generally agreeing that it should happen.

Where did you ever get the impression that I've got a town-read on Acosmist?

No one is hammering an objective case on a single person.

My case on AngryPidgeon isn't personal or subjective. Why are you ignoring it? Comment on it.

AngryPidgeon is scum.

What do you make of someone like Yates essentially saying AP is all over the place?

I don't think I understand the question. AngryPidgeon has been all over the place (except on Acosmist, consistently). Yates is leaning town.

Nero Cain, mastin2, PeregrineV, and zabriel are V/LA.
MagnaofIllusion is V/LA until Thursday.

Ahem

I'm vla too until PV is lynched.

Totally not helpful. If you don't want to play, then replace out.

If you don't want to replace out, then comment on my AngryPidgeon case.

Other people: Either vote for AngryPidgeon or explain why you won't. Let's fucking play mafia instead of doing nothing until the deadline hits.

[Kublai Khan]

@Kublia – what is your Nero read?

Scum. I'm genuinely confused as to how/why his role works as town and he's replying with hostility. If the AngryPidgeon wagon isn't happening (and doesn't seem to since mastin2 jumped ship), then I'll join you on the Nero Cain wagon.

Not going to change vote yet though. Only skimmed the last page or two. I'll read up after work tonight.

[Kublai Khan]

Anyone here going to say this is town MoI posting?

Yes.

[Kublai Khan]

@mastin2 - What did you discuss with Nero Cain in your QT last night?

@Nero Cain - Don't answer the above question.

[Kublai Khan]

"If I was the messenger, I targeted Aco; nothing unusual seems to have happened"

@mastin2 - Explain your Nero Cain townread.

[Kublai Khan]

So the vote on me is pressure due to PoE? <- The emoticon fails to truly capture how hard my eyes are rolling.

You forgot to answer my question. Why is Nero Cain a townread? How does his claim make sense?

Vote: zabriel

[Kublai Khan]

Why is mastin2 ignoring me?

[Kublai Khan]

His thought process connects perfectly as town for me.

What did you think of Post 3190 (and his partial answers at Post 3252).

Don't take this personally mastin2, but I think you can be one-on-one fooled by scum.

Town instantaneous neighborizer in a game with a Mafia Roleblocker DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

[Kublai Khan]

unvote

Eh, hold up, I want to re-read a bit first.

[Kublai Khan]

Rereading anything in particular KK?

Yates, jasonT1981, a few others. I wanna do some ISOs after work.

[Kublai Khan]

KK, you done with your stuff?

Yeah.

Vote: zabriel

Waiting to hear KK's Jason reread.

Not scummier than you. Neither is Yates (by a long shot).

There is no wiki on the messenger role.

Try Mailman, the lesser used/stupider name for the role that Vi liked better.

Acosmist is going to stay around regardless, at some point you count what's in favour of him and what's against him, and you vote accordingly. It's called scumhunting. If you think he's scum, you lynch him. You don't send some powerrole at him to check if perhaps you are wrong.

Do you believe that Acosmist is scum?

Nero, you insisted KK was townish yesterday. What changed?

Apparently, I don't buy his claim at face value. Therefore I'm scum. Also, I'm "dumb" because a mafia roleblocker dying suddenly made his role instantaneous and I should know that's just fine and dandy and town.

[Kublai Khan]

@KK: I don't. I don't believe acosmist is bold enough to make up a fakeclaim right at the start and go with the plan. I am somewhat annoyed (disappointed perhaps the better word?) that he wouldn't make more of it. He's just there sitting being a nobody. He's being a thorn in my side, not in scums, and I wish he tried harder.

How many games have you played with Acosmist?

[Kublai Khan]

@KK. Don't know. Can't remember a game with him. Doesn't really matter. The way he talks and plays doesn't make him one of the extraordinary cases where he'd be so bold to fakeclaim it.

His join date is almost as old as yours or mine. He has several games under his belt. Fakeclaiming isn't some sort of advanced skill, so why are you putting it past him?

[Kublai Khan]

You have been here 3 years longer than me. I don't see why I would need to explain to you the value of being able to confirm TWO Town.

Confirming roles =/= confirming alignment.

[Kublai Khan]

Scum PGO? Are you really selling that as a viable role in a game where Town has (at least any evidence of) no killing role?

Well, okay. When you put it that way it does sound pretty stupid.

Let me work stuff out for a second...

Setup:

Known

3x Vanilla Townie (flipped)
1x Town Cop (flipped)
1x Town Doctor (flipped)
1x Town Tracker (flipped)

1x Serial Killer (flipped)

1x Mafia Roleblocker (flipped)

Claimed

1x Reflexive Poisoner (I know Acosmist claimed PGO, but this sounds more accurate) (unconfirmed)
1x 3-Shot Neighborizer (confirmed)
1x Mailman/Messenger (confirmed)
1x Vanilla Townie

I'm not missing anything, am I?

[Kublai Khan]

So, can we lynch scum today?

Y'know, for a change?

Vote: AngryPidgeon

[Kublai Khan]

Wouldn't scum just kill you tonight?

[Kublai Khan]

So, can we lynch scum today?

Y'know, for a change?

Vote: AngryPidgeon

How close to you think we are to mylo/lylo, however it goes?

Yeah, but, but.. I'm really, really sure.

unvote

[Kublai Khan]

I'd buy Yates-scum. He was rolefishing early in the game.

[Kublai Khan]

I'm here.

Yates should claim.

[Kublai Khan]

Mod: Is it too early to request a prod on Yates

I'm not really seeing the benefit of lynching jasonT1981.

[Kublai Khan]

The downside of my lynch, and coming back means I lose my vote. Meaning I am useless in an end game situation.

Isn't that kinda an important thing to maintain the numerical advantage over scum (through voting)?

[Kublai Khan]

My thoughts on pere? It sucks. I kinda went back to glanced at the day a bit and it makes me sure AP is town.

One solid reason why you think AngryPidgeon is town.

Pere kill was clearly a delayed Tammy kill.

Clearly? CLEARLY?

Tammy was alive for two days.
Tammy claimed two daykills.
Tammy did not flip "delayed" anything.

So you're saying that "clearly" Tammy had an additional undisclosed unmentioned unstoppable killing ability on top of her other killing ability.

Fuck, I might be leaning Kublai Khan today. His question about Jason losing his vote just rubbed me wrong. Jason already siad that losing his vote is a downside. That and the "Lets vote AP! Oops this might be MyLo!" was less than genuine.

You know what "rubs me wrong"? You've been saying I'm scum for days. You voted me right off the bat today. You were asked by pidgey why you think I'm scum. YET NOW you suddenly say "Fuck, I might be leaning Kublai Khan today".

@mastin2 & pidgey - Whatever towntells you think he dropped are wrong.

@mykonian - Why the fuck did you target the same person twice for a message? Is it easier to message scum buddies to keep up the facade?

[Kublai Khan]

Ugh.

[Kublai Khan]

I am Big Boss, Vanilla Townie.

[Kublai Khan]

Him giving jason a pass on the P1 slip looks off. Town KK would have been more paranoid.
His vote/uncote today looks fake. If he were actually concerned about mylo, then his vote doesn't make sense. But he have enough of a fuck to unvote for Kise.
He id pushing me for voting Tammy. Bs. Also note he was voting her a lot of D2 then changed his mind. Yet I am scummy for changing mine.
Generally coasting all gsme. Only real push in recent Days was on me for voting Tammy.

I just dont get a genuine feel from KK. oh also his acosmist push which he had now apparently forgot about. He never cared that mykonian refused to target scum-acosmist.

1. Were you told how paranoid Town KK is by your scummates? Because you've never played with Town KK. Until this game of course.
2. It's not fake. None of that is scummy BTW.
3. Wow, you summarized a huge case down to a single line. Now it doesn't sound as convincing.
4. Coasting? I'm sorry I don't quad-post everytime I need to get a thought across and therefore bloat this fucking game to nigh-unreadable levels. I've been posting consistently and with plenty of content. That's a bullshit accusation.

I abandoned the Acosmist push after writing out the setup and getting scolded by MagnaofIllusion. Since the Messenger and the Neighborizer are confirmable roles (thought not alignment confirmed), I can see a moderator crafting a setup where town has to try to force those roles to test themselves against a reflexive PGO-type role. That was the point where I dropped it.

And yes, mykonian is scum for refusing to target Acosmist.

[Kublai Khan]

@jasonT1981 - Acosmist claimed Day 1 and nobody has been willing to target him. Your vote is dumb.
@mastin2 - Your observations (Post 3946 are horrible. I've asked you (and others) multiple times to explain how AngryPidgeon has town-telled and I've been ignored. Now you're accusing me of "not trying to figure things out". Fucking really? How about you quit playing to your scum meta and turn this thing around?
@mykonian - Why didn't you target Acosmist? You still haven't answered the question.
@Yates - What the fuck are you waiting for? Why don't you full claim so we can check if your night choices match your reads and actions? Or do you just need more time to read over yourself to craft a more believable fakeclaim.

Willingness to vote Yates

[Kublai Khan]

How much weighing in do people need to do?

Scum = Yates/AngryPidgeon/Nero Cain

[Kublai Khan]

He's at 4 votes. It's 6 to lynch. My vote and Pidgey's (if he's around) will secure the lynch.

[Kublai Khan]

Him giving jason a pass on the P1 slip looks off. Town KK would have been more paranoid.
His vote/uncote today looks fake. If he were actually concerned about mylo, then his vote doesn't make sense. But he have enough of a fuck to unvote for Kise.
He id pushing me for voting Tammy. Bs. Also note he was voting her a lot of D2 then changed his mind. Yet I am scummy for changing mine.
Generally coasting all gsme. Only real push in recent Days was on me for voting Tammy.

I just dont get a genuine feel from KK. oh also his acosmist push which he had now apparently forgot about. He never cared that mykonian refused to target scum-acosmist.

1. Were you told how paranoid Town KK is by your scummates? Because you've never played with Town KK. Until this game of course.
2. It's not fake. None of that is scummy BTW.
3. Wow, you summarized a huge case down to a single line. Now it doesn't sound as convincing.
4. Coasting? I'm sorry I don't quad-post everytime I need to get a thought across and therefore bloat this fucking game to nigh-unreadable levels. I've been posting consistently and with plenty of content. That's a bullshit accusation.

I abandoned the Acosmist push after writing out the setup and getting scolded by MagnaofIllusion. Since the Messenger and the Neighborizer are confirmable roles (thought not alignment confirmed), I can see a moderator crafting a setup where town has to try to force those roles to test themselves against a reflexive PGO-type role. That was the point where I dropped it.

And yes, mykonian is scum for refusing to target Acosmist.

1. When I say tpown-player, I don't mean I have meta. I dont do meta. I just mean I dont think that player would act that way as town. Think I said the same thing to nero way earlier.
2. ok. And There we go. "I didn't do anything scummy! You can't pin it on me!" THATS a scummy attitude.
3. Lol, that was the punchline. That I should 'know better' than to lynch Tammy. Yet you were pushing for it a lot of D2 yourself. Zero fucks given.
4. I just cant think of anything really original that you have done. You wanted to lynch Acosmist for being useless. You wanted to lynch Nero for running out of shots. You wanted to lynch me for voting Tammy. Could just be playstyle, but you have said basically nothing to make me think you are approaching the game from a town perspective.

1. So you're comparing me to a broad stereotype of how you think this game should be played? This is an MD discussion, but meta is key to getting better at this game.
2. No, stop that. You can't declare an argument or an attitude to be scummy. You have to provide the reasoning why scum would be more likely to do something than town would. You rarely do this. Which makes you scum because you can easily change your reads to match whatever is occuring. (Consider your early-game defense of Zabriel (for actions you likened to jasonT1981's) to your eventual spear-heading of the zabriel lynch.)
3. I "pushed a lot" for a Tammy lynch? Rewrite history much? I voted because I was following the cop. Then I stopped and thought about it and changed my mind to something I thought was a better town strategy. You went the opposite way.
4. You can't think of anything original, then rattle off 3 examples off the top of your head. Gosh, I'm so forgettable.

Read on mykonian now?

Just behind Nero Cain. One of their two roles is pretty likely to be scum.

[Kublai Khan]

Should we designate a VT to hammer just in case?

[Kublai Khan]

Well, if I were scum and if I did have the ability to place bombs on people so that the person who hammers is blown up, then I would prime the scum team first and foremost so that townies would die if they lynched scum. If you recall, Yates was the one who strongly pushed forward the theory that Tammy must have booby-trapped zabriel.

[Kublai Khan]

One of KK/Kise

Wait, why?

[Kublai Khan]

So, Yates calling scumteams at two points in the game:

I am willing to lynch from this pool [in no particular order]:
ThAd
KK
AP
BC

Awesome. Thanks for stepping up and admitting you are scum. So it's Zab, Myk, and AP. Easy as 1-2-3.

Note: ThAdmiral, BloodCovenent, & zabriel have all flipped town.

I know I'm town. And mykonian's role sounds much more plausible then Nero Cain's.

AngryPidgeon is on both lists yet Yates never really tried to push a wagon on AngryPidgeon. Yates did vote for AngryPidgeon at times, but never urged others to join.

Though I've been campaigning so long for AngryPidgeon's lynch that I may be confirmation biased. So others should present arguments for/against. Use logic and evidence, not "feelings".

[Kublai Khan]

@mykonian - If you want to push a pidgey lynch, you're going to have to prevent a case that ties him with Yates.

I'm going to read for a mastin2-Yates connection now/tonight because my town read on him is in need of re-visiting.

[Kublai Khan]

I mean I was paranoid that it was. So I dont know why people were chucking votes around for the lolz when it was possible. KK, mastin,

Kise

, Jason. Like, did it not occur to you that it might be MyLo? At all?

So paranoid you chucked around a vote for me during that time as well.

[Kublai Khan]

Without analysing connections, I'd never go to AP. And I'm not going to use those two posts as a reason to lynch AP.

Very simply said, AP has been active, has been scumhunting, has annoyed people and has made things move. He's town, and we aren't going to lynch him.

"Scumhunting" & "Made things move"? Tell me, how many scum have we lynched based on AngryPidgeon's scum-hunting and annoying?

These are poor reasons to consider someone town. AngryPidgeon was at the front line getting Elscouta lynched, zabriel lynched, and Tammy lynched (despite originally noting that it advantaged scum to lynch her). So the fact that he's been "moving things forward" is not a town-tell.

If we were in a lylo as town/town, then it was over anyways?

Seriously? This didn't occur to you? Ive never been in a lylo as town before and I know better than that >.>

You're just not getting this whole "I don't think you're town" vibe that I've been giving off, do you?
Doesn't excuse that you just tried to leave your name off a list of "people who voted".

@KK: Jason proposed that someone that Yates 'cleared' is probably a Yates buddy. What do YOU think about post 3968?

Given that it was a really shitty fakeclaim that didn't fit any of the rest of the game, I think only a scumpartner would try to push a lynch based on that post. It's poisoned with WIFOM.

What was the purpose of that post, AP?

Because Im trying to get KK to lynch you obviously. You are like a fucking Genie. You only post when someone doubts your claim or expresses interest in voting you. Im not expressing interest in voting you. I want to hear KK's opinion on this post, why the fuck else am I asking him.

Wait, what? When did this become your read towards Acosmist? Pretty sure I remember posting evidence that you've been relentlessly sticking up for him all game. Now you're

just noticing

the stuff people have been posting about Acosmist Days and Days ago?

[Kublai Khan]

Ok, then why is it significantly different than 2 random Yates reads lists? Why does the fact that it was a bad fakeclaim matter? Yates reads were bad because he was scum. Im not being cheeky. I don't get the significance of lists that Yates made. My first scum game, I never listed either of my buddies as scum for the most part. And when I died people ripped my scum list apart and lynched the shit out of monkeyman for being on it.

Why care about those 2 and not the other list Yates made?

Because it's a common thing for scum to innocuously put a scum buddy on a scum list as a form of distancing.

The claim list is different because Yates knew he was fucked. He knew he had to claim PR because early game he fucked up and rolefished jasonT1981's claim. (Helpful hint: This is why jasonT1981 should be nigh-unlynchable right now.) My gut tells me that he was legitimately busy with New Years stuff and didn't realize that he was V/LAing until deadline so he had to throw together something. But to know if he would bus or not at that point requires a better meta-knowledge of Yates that I don't have. So it's not really worth exploring since I have other leads.

[Kublai Khan]

Also you spazzed out over me calling you scum based on lists and you just mentioned that you had experience seeing town do that. Thanks for the icing.

I'm almost literally QQ in frustration over the fact that people see you as town. Mostly because everyone is only reacting to stuff that happened 5 minutes ago instead of examining events that happened in game over 7 Days. I do blame this on the posting style of people that quad-post regularly and make the game a chore to read for people.

[Kublai Khan]

@Mod - Did Nero Cain pick up his opening day PM?

[Kublai Khan]

@jasonT1981 - His lack of answer is your answer.

@everyone - Am I the only one that has a problem with Nero Cain's claim? (Hint: It's not out-guessing the mod by a long shot)

[Kublai Khan]

Me? I know Acosmist isn't confirmed town. I don't think anyone besides Acosmist has said that Acosmist is confirmed town. It's a wasted argument.

That said, do you think this game features a setup with a Neighborizer can neighborize multiple times & instantaneously *AND* a Reflexive Poisoner *AND* a mafia roleblocker?

I know Nero Cain is trying to make it taboo to "question the mod", but I'm sure we can collectively take a moment to do some reasonable post-mass claim analysis of this game and notice that things don't add up.

So again, mykonian, what do you think of Nero Cain's roleclaim?

[Kublai Khan]

If you had Nero Cain's role (as described), what's your N1 plan?

[Kublai Khan]

Well, assuming that Benmage got his results at the start of the day like most regular cops and he claimed Day 2, there's not terribly much of a point in neighborizing him.

But the major point is that even if Nero Cain's very questionable claim is true (big if), he certainly didn't use his ability with a townie mindset.

Also, that was a pretty blatant Beetlejuice.

@mod: Can you answer my previous question as to whether Nero Cain had picked up his day start PM at the time of my post? And can you tell me if you prodded him at any time this game day?

vote: Nero Cain

[Kublai Khan]

Thank you mod.

So to review:
Nero Cain has a nonsensical, very uncommon roleclaim.
If that roleclaim is accurate, then he displayed a remarkably untown-like way of thinking when utilizing that role.
If we are assumed to be in a LYLO/MYLO situation, then he is definitely lurking and looking to swoop in to hammer.

If anyone thinks that there is a better lynch than Nero Cain today, then they need to present a real good fucking case.

@mykonian - Your pidgey case isn't better than mine.
@Acosmist - Your AngryPidgeon case (?) isn't better than mine.

[Kublai Khan]

Sorry, I've been avoiding this. You make it sound like this is clear cut, and I'm sure it has something to do with the instantaneous thing... but I don't get it. What exactly is the problem?

Would you create a setup with a mafia roleblocker and a town role that can't be roleblocked? Especially a somewhat inconsequential role like "neighborizer"?

[Kublai Khan]

Hi mastin2.

First, I don't quite understand where your reads are stemming from.

You first voted me (outside RVS) because of some process of elimination thing where you picked me name out of a list of seven that you devised alongside Nero Cain. Now you suspect Nero Cain of being scum, but you're mega-pushing the idea that I'm scum with really, really crappy reasoning/evidence.

I'm going to read for a mastin2-Yates connection now/tonight because my town read on him is in need of re-visiting.

Conveniently after myk and pidgey both say they need to re-evaluate me and that I've blown my towncred, Khan does this. Pretty much by-the-book opportunism, here.

Look at this.

On the very same page, five posts before this quoted post, both AngryPidgeon and mykonian voted you. AngryPidgeon even posted a giant wall of a case. I posted within those 5 posts... and didn't say anything about it. Didn't jump on the wagon. Didn't agree and softly push it along. Nothing. I read AngryPidgeon's case, thought it was pretty weak and decided to hold off until you replied to it.

How is that "by-the-book opportunism"?

His posts, again, don't have that air of legitimacy in them. They just feel as if he's pushing to get a lynch, ANY lynch, through, which isn't on his scumbuddies.

The "air of legitimacy" comment is crap. At best, it's an indication that whoever is writing it has confirmation bias. At worst it's an attempt at discrediting. Either way, it's manipulative. He's not proving anything I said was wrong. Just implying it.

Second, I'm pushing "ANY lynch"? I've pushed for two lynches today. AngryPidgeon (whom I've since backed off) and Nero Cain (whom I think is scum). I've been very deliberate and focused. Why are you making it sound like I'm scrambling to join any available wagon? Keep in mind that this is also after I failed to jump on a mastin2 bandwagon.

This reminds me. Khan was willing to vote Yates, but specifically stayed off. Nero was absent, but I definitely need to review his stances at the time. I definitely think there's scum off of Yates, but it's pretty much definitely not going to be the whole scumteam off, especially considering that he botched his claim. Right now, I'm basically deciding between one (most likely, Khan) or two (most likely, Khan and Nero).

I also need to take another look at who was voting/willing to vote Yates at different stages in the game--before his claim, after his initial claim, and after his full (botched) claim. Given that this was mylo and the scum had a real shot at winning, my instincts say none on him before his claim. Potentially after his initial claim, and pretty much certainly after his botched claim.

This.. just doesn't make sense. You're suggesting that I stayed off the Yates lynch wagon because... there was another scum on it and I didn't want to risk being together with another (or two other?) scum? After a botched claim? Really?

Really??

Another thing making me think the scumteam is Khan/Jason/myk, is that Khan's pushing Nero as scum heavily, and pushing Aco as scum lightly (while also pushing jason as town quite heavily), with myk entirely out of the radar. But despite focusing on Nero and Aco quite a bit, his main push is elsewhere, on AP.

(Should also be noted, of course, that he's basically ignored pidgey. Worth looking in to, though pidgey's still my strongest townread.)

Reading fail, mastin2.

jasonT1981, pidgey, AngryPidgeon are town reads.
mykonian & Acosmist are wildcards
One of Nero Cain/mastin2 is definitely scum (possibly both)

In other words, I'd be down with a mastin2 lynch. I think his last flurry of posts shows a desperation to try to lynch me or jasonT1981, or anyone not a scumbuddy. In a near-endgame situation, he's sucking up heavily to AngryPidgeon, pigdey, and Acosmist with early-game type "that reads like town" comments instead of having genuine paranoia that requires really, really solid reasoning behind a townread.

As I'm trying to piece together how a surviving scum-team fits in what we know of the setup and how interactions have gone, mastin2 is carelessly announcing a scumteam read on shaky evidence and brazenly trying to hurry along a lynch. He's also made numerous "I wish I was scum" and "scum must be giddy to win" comments that sound like he's legitimately excited about finally getting a surviving win as scum. I mean, if he's town, why the fuck is he so slaphappy about the situation we're in? Shouldn't he be frustrated about being wagonned with the game possibly on the line?

More thoughts tomorrow. Bed now.

[Kublai Khan]

Morning.

Previous post feels naked without a vote for mastin2, but he's got two votes already and I don't want to rush things.

@pidgey - Everything you've said about jasonT1981 is legit. But the fact remains that Yates tried to PR-rolefish jasonT1981. I can explain away everything you said as jasonT1981-town being a dumbass. But I can't picture a scenario where one scum rolefishes a scummate.

[Kublai Khan]

So yes, I'm fully playing to my scum meta

[Kublai Khan]

Oops. Hit submit before I could actually write a point there.

The point being I really don't care about your introspection and navel-gazing about your ability or lack of ability to yadda yadda yadda WIFOM.

Would probably be true if I was actually scum, but if you read my posts as enjoying the current situation, you have zero grasp of tone. I'm agitated. I'm frustrated. I'm annoyed, and angry at myself. Not at anyone else, mind you. But at myself.

Gosh, I don't know why I get the impression that you're not agitated/frustrated/annoyed/angry.

[Kublai Khan]

Reaction to pressure.

[Kublai Khan]

Bah.

[Kublai Khan]

Bah. I was pushing for a AngryPidgeon lynch the whole damn game. Wasn't until the last day that I started second guessing myself a little because so many damn people kept insisting that he was reading like town and dropping towntells. He was just so obviously scum.

Oh well, my fault for not being able to lead. I kept having to compromise and lynch people that I knew probably weren't a good lynch (Elscouta for one). I hope Magna comes by and apologizes a little for his arrogance, but I doubt it.

I would have probably lynched Nero over myko though. But if AP was lynched first, then that was a reasonable luxury.

[Kublai Khan]

Just got around to reading the scum QT. AP was right, I was lynchable and not leading the town properly. But kudos to me for some damn good reads this game.

[Kublai Khan]

What was I supposed to do, not point it out at all despite having seen it and known it was now public information for viewing?

Yes, absolutely yes. Because what you did was cheating. You cleared yourself through information that wasn't thread generated.

On the slim chance that anyone in the game had checked out that link and discovered that you were town through information not present in the game thread, then they should have notified the mod and gotten replaced.

If any of your other "I'm town" links were actually worth a crap and you honestly believed that they would convince anyone that you were town, then you wouldn't have included that Cyber link.

Cyber unwittingly broke site rules, but you used that to your advantage in a game. You deserved the modkill.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, unrelated, but I nommed myk for a title on this game.

[Kublai Khan]

Mastin, you're doing a lot of justification dancing to try to claim innocence. Stop it.

The right thing to do was to alert the mod that part of his game was compromised and that you didn't feel comfortable hiding that information.
The wrong thing to do was to decide that you knew better than the mod and go ahead and use the infraction for personal gain.

Also,

Really, how come you seem to think it was so explicit? That Cyber's words could only be interpreted in that single way? I, the guy in the slot of question, thought of at least half a dozen ways for it to be false, yet only a single scenario for it to be true.

I, the guy in the slot of question, didn't think that the single scenario was undeniably the most probable.

He could have, for instance, merely forgotten he was ever in this game. It's happened to plenty of scummers before. He could have lied for the sake of maintaining his slot's integrity this game. Why was the answer "he was telling the truth" the only one people other than me considered?

I'm sorry mastin, but you really, really suck at probability. Everyone but you who read that Cyber mafia QT blurb knew exactly what it implied and any scenario that didn't imply that you were town is so intensely improbable that it wasn't worth even bothering to consider.

And guess what? Everyone was right. You were confirmed town.

As I said in the dead QT, I already thought my argument for me being town was strong. The link was meant to be the final nail in the coffin. To augment the existing case. Not the centerpiece of the whole display. I presented a case for why I was town. I offered why it was possible I was scum, but went to great lengths in order to explain why I wasn't. For me, the link was just a way to top it off.

I'm still amazed that you've played over a hundred games and still do stuff like this. It's pointless. Any scum worth their salt can present a similar case as to why they are town with all pertinent links and what not. So why bother? Has it ever convinced anyone?

Your job as town is to find scum. If you want to avoid being lynched, then point out where the case on you is flawed. But to try to earnestly expect people to be convinced of your towniness just by saying stuff like "look at my posting here, isn't it very town?" is ludicrous.

[Kublai Khan]

That critical level of doubt is why it's pointless to present a case as to why you're town. Anyone in the game can cherry-pick their towniest posts and present them as a reason why they are town. That's why it's a pointless exercise and a waste of time.

But add in the word of your predecessor who implies beyond a reasonable doubt that he's town in this game, and you're confirmed.

[Kublai Khan]

You're ignoring the problem of confirmation bias.