The Scummies, 2011... Live! (ish)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, as it turns out, it was the half-way scummy judges who made the decision that concerns my games. So it wasn't Team Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia. It was Team Mafia vs. Cyclic Mafia (and my In the Court of the Gods for that matter) and then Cyclic Mafia vs. Marketplace Mafia because the halfway judges picked Cyclic.

The end of year Judges probably got it right then.

It was the mid-way judges who made a mistake.

--
And to answer your question, Vi. I don't think that's a good way to go unless we really want to change the scummies into something very, very different.

I don't feel we made a mistake, really.

Considering that it was for the best Mechanic or Mutation, we had to consider a few things:

Firstly, how much of an effect of the game did the mechanic have? In the case of Court of the Gods, the effect was minimal. The shared QTs didn't add TOO TOO much, and the idea of unlynchable treestumps, including one being scum, has been done before (I'll get to this).

The same could be said for Team Mafia. Really, it was essentially a hydra game, where each player was a 4 person hydra, and all players were involved in 4 games. Was it a fun idea? Yes. Can it be considered a mutation to the game of mafia? No.

Cyclic Mafia also had some of these issues, but they weren't as apparent. The mutation that Cyclic mafia presented was a definite change to how mafia is played. With roles not only changing every night, but changing hands every night.

Next, you have to consider the originality of the mechanic. There's a reason for it to be called a mutation, we need something we've never seen before. Frankly, [Redacted Judge] put it best for me. Team Mafia and In the Court both suffered from their only mechanical change boiling down to the following:

-QTs
-Treestumps
-Hydras

It was impossible for us to award a Mechanic/Mutation award to either of these games when none of these concepts were at all "new". Yes, they were taken with a slightly different spin/train of thought. But in the end, they were simply the same mutations you could find in multiple Large and Mini themes.

Cyclic's role shuffle system DID NOT have this problem. That's why Cyclic passed over either of your games, and I would make that decision 100 times out of 100 again.

Sorry.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

(As a note, congratulations to all winners, and especially to Andrius for winning Most Improved).

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I definitely didn't feel like the games were a hydra at all. It was so different for me, and it plays mind tricks - for example, "mith would never put his buddy at L-1" ... but Hoopla might.

I don't see how that differs from a Hydra. If you know both heads of a Hydra, and you are someone who uses meta, wouldn't you account for both players meta, and not just the one who is posting?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

well, i assume you account for it to some degree, but it's not the same. A game I design and moderate backed up and reviewed by hitogoroshi will be different from a game hitogoroshi designs and moderates that I back up and review and that's different from a game that we co-mod. Does that make sense? the person who is responsible and actually does the action makes the largest impact on what goes on. Certainly it gets changed by those behind that person providing advice, etc. but that's a fundamentally different thing than if it's two people posting from the same account.

The issue here is not "how it's different" but rather "how different is it?"

And while I agree, there is a SMALL difference given by only one head being able to post, it's not enough to constitute giving Team Mafia a pass in an award based solely on a mutation or mechanic.

The logic is simple and the point is clear, in my opinion. Team Mafia was a combination of several old mutations (See: Masonry + Hydras, thus accounting for individual posting in 1 game with the advice of people they know they can trust, who are also working as a team with them), but it is not a NEW mutation. That's the heart of the matter.

Don't get me wrong, I love/loved Team Mafia. I love all Zoraster games. If Strategy Mafia had been up for evaluation in my section, it would have gotten the nod from me over Cyclic.

But Team Mafia was not a new mutation and it wasn't enough of a game changing mechanic to be considered for the win. The illustrate this, Psychic Mafia won "Best Town Performance", which shows that these games stand up on their own outside of even team mafia.

I feel like you're trying to argue a semantic difference between hydras and Team Mafia, when in reality you're missing the big picture which is that it's

not different enough.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

And Zora, I don't think you'll offend me by posting your opinions here. I'm not going to be hurt if you disagree with me, and I respect you/like you enough to not take your criticisms to heart.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

For me, it doesn't really matter how different it IS, but rather how different it FEELS.
I think the players all approached it in a fresh, excited way. They played the game differently.

That's what matters (to me).

But that's not a mechanic is it?

Player action is INHERENTLY separate from Mechanics and Mutations. This can't be a factor in deciding the best Mechanic/Mutation.

I loved Team Mafia. I went in to this category thinking Team Mafia was gonna win 100%. But I approached it on a non-partial unbiased level, and was convinced to believe it wasn't worthy of the win.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

But there is a new mechanic in it that created that excitement in the players.

I disagree.

I understand and respect your opinion, but it is not the same as mine.

I don't see how "player excitement" can be a factor in determining the "best Mechanic".

That'd be like saying the more popular/hyped a game is, the better it is. And that's just inherently not true.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The new mechanic (and it WAS new, despite having basis in older mechanics, just like everything including the game that actually won) excited everyone so much that it changed how they played the game. That was the INTENT of the mechanic, not an accidental byproduct.

So you're saying the mechanic was to get everyone excited for a big new game so much that they'd act differently, thus creating the new mechanic?

So, I am to assume that the game was designed in advance to its reception, to be immensely popular, and use its status as a popular game to entice players to play differently, creating a "feeling" of a different game that is totally intentional?

I don't... Oh god. I don't even.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No ... it wasn't that it was popular. It was the new player dynamics, the mechanic itself.

I'm being respectful to you. The least you could do is return the favor.

I'm sorry, I am doing my best.

That last postulation that somehow the game was designed to create player involvement as a mechanic was just so... I can't even phrase it. I'm doing my best to say something about it, but I just can't make it sound not... you know. >.>

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The entire point of the mechanic was to invent a new way of playing, a new meta, and new player dynamics. It succeeded. That's all I'm saying.

And I'm saying that I don't think that the game was invented to do those things, and even if it was, that STILL wouldn't be a mechanic or mutation, but rather just the goal that all games strive for.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

The intent of the mechanic was to put people in situations where they were put together with friends, had pressure put on them individually to perform so they didn't let their team down, helped other teammates with their games, and compete in a different way. It was also to try to provide something that tied the community together with a major event. Consider that that was the game that mith played in last year. It was meant to be a focal point that had people strive to do things with other people in an increasingly acrimonious place. And that's why it was ultimately as successful. It was ambitious in a completely different way than Strategy Mafia* was. But it still was intended to be something more than just a casual throw down of some hydras.


*I'll admit when I first started drafting Strategy Mafia I hoped it'd get some scummy love, but it was a flawed mechanic. Not tragically so -- people still had fun and it still worked in a fashion. But it was too flawed to really be a true success. There were a few easy things that could be done to fix that if a second iteration ever came around, but as it stood, it was an incredibly ambitious game that only half-worked... though you did get one of the coolest roles I've ever created, LLD. I kind of wish I had been nominated for that role.

PS. I totally should have been nominated for funniest poster for Storm of Swords. Just saying: I was hilarious.

Don't get me wrong, I felt that Strategy Mafia could have been done better (I mean, the odds were so against me winning that game ) but I loved the room mechanic, I loved the Chip Mechanic and I loved my role.

God did I love that BodySnatcher, Torture Room, Sadistic Skin Stealing Role.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, and uh, Strategy Mafia is a good example of a "Mechanic" where as I think Team Mafia is not.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Please do not belittle the achievements of other players, MagnaofNoScummies.

> Best Newbie 2011

Welp.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

D. Based on your posts in this thread, you are the type of poster that others would not want defending them. You do him a disservice with your posts.

Yeah, fuck you too buddy.

You don't even know me, so go fly a fucking kite.

You're a fucking coward, hiding behind some fucking alt making fucking potshots at people with nothing to account for.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I still can't get over how I screwed up in Call of Chthulhufish, redirecting Magna instead of Magua.

I could have made Magua scum kill himself dammit! It's what I meant to do!