Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[LimMePls]

So, I was able to read Feysal's reply to my mass-alignment claim idea, and I now see what he meant about it being terrible. So ya, I don't think we should do that.

Vote: Rang Tangler

Still not RVS. Others should vote here too.

[LimMePls]

Wait, who replaced Rang?

[LimMePls]

unvote
Vote: kondi2424

Sucks to replace into a caught scum slot.

[LimMePls]

Holy shit this thread exploded. Will get caught up today. I would like to say though that the one thing I'm absolutely SICK of is fake dayvigs. I really wish that trend would DIAF.

[LimMePls]

Spoiler: Catchup Pages 5-Current

This is a mafiascum.net game, stop questioning my accusation techniques. And just for that I

think

you

might

a scumbag.

*My bold

Weasle-worded wishy-washy do nothing comment detected.

What about Feysal's argument swayed you? In my last post before the crash, I noted that you were rather overbearing in the way you backed up your argument and countered arguments about it. You seemed completely certain your way was the right way. What changed your mind.

The fact that I was completely wrong about cross-kills. I thought my plan would help them cross-kill each other, but it turns out that if they lie (which they have MASSIVE incentive to do) it actually GUARANTEES they can't cross-kill. So it went from an awesome idea to an absolutely TERRIBLE idea, thanks to Feysal's properly exposing the flaw.

Also, what about Rang Tangler screamed scum at you? You originally placed your real vote on him after he claimed to not have the intellectual capacity to contribute to the conversation, then offered up some possible roles based on alignment, and then claimed ambivalence on the argument but was intrigued.

How is this a scum tell?

Rang started off like this "I can't really contribute to this conversation, I'm not smart enough". Then later Rang makes a post about being "intrigued". Someone who is "intrigued" by the conversation, but wants to stay out of it and not engage in the discussion is someone who has something to hide and is afraid of giving something away by taking a stance. It looks like Rang is waiting to see how it shakes out before taking a stance. Which means trying to blend with town. Which means scum.

Also, if Rang is "intrigued" by it, Rang would have to have the intellectual capacity to understand it. And if Rang had that, then the earlier statement was a flat out lie.

So 2 fantastic reasons to suspect Rang as scum.

As for Tammy's introspection on LMP, I'd like to hear to what he has to say to after all this time of bickering and social war.

We need to rope this guy. If I didn't want Rang/kondi dead more, I'd be on this wagon.

Alright, then, LM. Who have you seen that is a potential partner?

It's 5 pages in, not everyone has seemed to have checked in yet, and we haven't found one confirmed scum. Can you explain to me the benefit or purpose of looking for partners right now?

QFT. Although it's not technically 5 pages, this point is still valid.

Feysal's 129 is good posting.
As is Zdenek's 140.

Shadoweh – so in regards to your second and third points –

2. Why exactly are you so strongly defending Mhork when he doesn’t have any significant votes ATM?
3. Your point here sounded better when ML made it at Post 126. Why are you parroting the person you look to be softly inferring is scum?

I also think your “I’m only going to pay attention to my target and give as little content as possible" stance sucks bilge-water and is totes scummy.

For ISO purposes ...[/quote]

QFT.

Foxace's reaction super-defensive knee-jerk reaction to Jackal's vote on page 11 seemse scummy to me.

Alright... Foxace isn't a scum. I'm sure of it. Empking... might be a scumbag...

However, kondi is voting me because he thinks I'm buddying with Lemons...

Which means, kondi... Is either a misinterpreted townie, or a scumbag trying to blend in... Because I think YOU'RE a scumbag! So to even this thing out, EAT THIS!

Vote: Kondi

Reason: Shifty emotions.

I know you're shifty, don't even get me started.

This vote comes immediately following the vote count where Norman is the largest wagon, but kondi is just one vote behind.

As much as I love kondi votes, this vote STINKS LIKE SHIT.

TOWN

Tammy
Feysal
MaguaofIllusion
Zdenek
Pine
Empking
Jackal711
greenknight
Y u no scum
Lord Mhork
ManiacalLemon
brizingre1
PeregrineV
CooLDoG
trekker
Skenvoy
Shadoweh
Mastermind of Sin
Guy_Named_Riggs
Haze
AurorusVox
Shadow1psc
Foxace36
kondi2424
Norman

SCUM

As always, this early in a game the poles are more accurate than the middle.

Unvote
Vote: Norman

We can come back to kondi tomorrow. Norman's last vote is cause for some death.

[LimMePls]

Sir, do you obviously know what you're doing? Tell me this... Why do you decide to vote me afterwards when a quarter of the people in this game have found me innocent? Even more then that, why would you put some of my last 8-9 suspects on top? This makes me think you're probably a scumbag. And I will not allow such a fallacy to be taken place.

Therefore I'm now not voting you, but I'm voting the people at the top of the list that you have.
Actually I'm going to make it a tie.

Vote: Pine
Reason: The way this guy orders his suspects is goddamn suspicious. I mean I know there's probably like one scumbag down at that last near me but there could be one on top.

Even so I think our boy here is wanting a quick lynch for no apparent reason. But wait, do we have reason to interpret such a desicion? Nope. He's just going by what he thinks is right. But then again it could be a messup for town and he could be a scumbag. But meh.


And I don't know why that first post got all weird like that.

1) Why are you invoking quicklynch-fearmongering? Aren't you like L-10 or so?
2) Just so I understand this, you think I'm scum, but rather than vote me, you're going to vote people based on where they are on my meter and which one you think would be scum if I did happen to be scum?

Confirm vote

[LimMePls]

Oh, and I'm voting you because of your vote, which I explained CLEARLY in my post, which you obviously read, so I fail to see how you can act like you don't get it. Also, what does 1/4 of the thread thinking you're not scum have anything to do with it? In fact, wouldn't it be scummy if I went along just because I perceived others to feel that way? You think I'm scum because I have my own opinion and state it clearly?

[LimMePls]

Something is wrong with my post, so quoting it is causing problems.

@Mod

It looks like there is an extra close quote tag in my spoiler block. Any chance you can fix that?

@briz: I don't think Pine should be that high, I think I missed him when I was rearranging the player list into the meter, and while I was proofreading the list. I went back and looked and in the OP's player list the first player is Pine, so I somehow missed him when organizing the meter. He should be more in the middle. I will fix this when I update the meter later in the game.

[LimMePls]

Vote: Pine
Reason: The way this guy orders his suspects is goddamn suspicious. I mean I know there's probably like one scumbag down at that last near me but there could be one on top.

Are you drunk or just confused?

I haven't even finished catching up (blame midterms), much less put my suspects in any kind of order. This is pure OMGUS masquerading as reasoning.

He was talking about my meter. It looks weird because the quoting got all screwed up.

It is pretty telling though that you're not caught up but you have the time to defend yourself instead of catching up.

[LimMePls]

Why are you only concerned with questioning one person?

What's the problem if he is? Your question implies that Foxace36 focusing his questions at one player is somehow bad.

Whoa. People are talking and stuff. I had no idea this thread was back up.

I don't have time right now, but I'll
a) Reread the original thread
b) Read this new thread
c) Reread the original thread again
d) Make a post
tomorrow night, when I have a spare moment.

Did you feel compelled to detail this for some reason?

This is a fantastic question.

Sorry. This is my real question to LMP

You highlighted that you are voting Norman for using think and might in regards to someone maybe being a scumbag. Do you find that scum are more likely to use words which make one seem unsure or town?

How often do you tend to find scum by word choice?

What do you think of RT's response to Feysal saying that scum would be insane not to claim the opposite alignment:

"This 100%. A RC kind of defeats the purpose of itself in some aspects. But we also don't know if there's an even number of LE & CE and CG & LG. Or if the total LE + CG = LG + CE. So I suppose some information could certainly be ascertained."

I catch scum on word choice all the time. By far one of my top scum tells is finding scum that appear to be crafting their thoughts to conform/appease the town. Also fence-sitting/wishy-washy language is a big red flag for me. For a great example of these tells, see me catch CoachTravis scum on day 1 in Ghostbusters Mafia, in large part due to the way he used language in that game (see my ISO 1 where I show his backtracking from the use of the word "constant" was scummy and his fence-sitting/wishy-washy language toward Scott Brosius). I'm sure there are plenty of other examples of this in my wiki.

As for the quote, I'm not sure I follow the argument of whether or not LE + CG = LG + CE, since the game seemed intentionally designed to have PRECISELY that balance. I'm not sure what "some" information he suggests could be ascertained, but I don't think it outweighs the serious dangers that Feysal correctly identified.

Vote: Myself
Reason: Everyone surprisingly hates me.

This should convince the doubters.

I especially dislike LMP's attack against him for voting Kondi because they were both voting that slot for the same reason, trying to blend in and I find the idea that a vote is worse for coming immediately after a vote count distasteful.

Just so I have you correctly, when he sees his own wagon building, as displayed in a vote count, he immediately hops his vote to the only other viable wagon, and you think suspecting him for that is DISTASTEFUL!? As I see it, that is one of the best arguments for Norman-scum.

I'd still like LMP to explain his rationale behind his strategy of lynching to maintain balance between the sides.

Why? This only worked with the mass alignment claim and it's already been proven to be a bad idea.

VOTE: VOTE: Norman

Continually spouting nonsense, as well as having over 1/3 of the total posts in this thread which is making it hard to catch up.

Call it a policy lynch if you want, but his large number of posts seems scummy to me as it's hindering scumhunting.

But Zdenek finds my reasons "distasteful". My mind = blown.

Also not a fan of MOI's "scum wouldn't act this way" argument for Norman. No idea why "aggressive" is a town tell. Scum can easily be aggressive, especially in multiball. And stupidity as a town tell is also so full of fail it's not funny. Do you want a list of shotty-scum games that he got busted for being stupid? Cause I can definitely provide that. Start with the ghostbusters game linked above. So stupid != town and aggressive != town.

[LimMePls]

LMP, players should not have to delay voting, so that their vote doesn't appear immediately following a vote count, to avoid being called scummy. You think Norman's scummy for getting on the next biggest wagon, okay, but the idea that it's worse because it came right after a vote count is one that I have a problem with.

But the point is that the timing of it was evidence that his vote was just to join the next biggest wagon. So the timing is relevant evidence to the exact point you admit is valid. So what's the problem?

[LimMePls]

I'd like you to explain the rationale behind your lynching strategy because in my opinion it was an anti-town strategy. What you were suggesting we do was possibly the worst thing that town could have done in this setup. Being wrong isn't a scum tell, but talking for the sake of talking and suggesting a strategy for town to play by without thinking about it's consequences are, so I'm curious how you came up with your strategy.

Spoiler: Explanation of my views on a matter that is now irrelevant, but whatever...

I disagree strongly that it was the worst thing we could do. The argument AGAINST a mass claim, as I understood it at the time, was that it would cause the town to be divided, where each side would want to only pursue scum that threatens its faction. My proposal was that in order to help create a united town, we agree to not focus on eliminating one scum team too quickly. The reason this is important is because when we eliminate one scum team, ALL OF THE TOWN THAT OPPOSE THAT FACTION LEAVE THE GAME. So, the scenario that my suggestion was trying to avoid was:
LYNCH LE SCUM
NK LG TOWN
NK LG TOWN
LYNCH LE SCUM
NK LG TOWN
NK LG TOWN
LYNCH LE SCUM
9 CG TOWN WIN AND LEAVE THE GAME
3 REMAINING LG TOWN AUTO LOSE TO 3 CE SCUM.

In order to keep that from happening, we would want to agree as a team to trade off which faction had highest priority based on which had more living memebers.

I'm pretty sure I explained this before in the last thread too. If you still don't get it, I'm not sure what else to say. If you think it's scummy, I dunno what to say other than "I don't".

[LimMePls]

On a quick skim I don't like the CD wagon at all. I've been in many games with CD where I couldn't wait to rope him, this game he's actually made a decent amount of sense. Can't help but wonder if he's a convenient counterwagon to one of the scum bags we're running up.

More in depth post later/tomorrow.

[LimMePls]

I agree that word choice is important and can help catch scum, but you have to be careful too, because town are just as likely to use words like "think" or "might" as scum. In fact, town has more of a tendency to do so because of coming from the position of not actually knowing anything.

Sure, and if that were the only thing someone had done, I wouldn't vote them over it. It's part of an overall anaylsis of a player and their motives. If a player engages in behavior like this and other behaviors that are scum minded, I'm going to call them scum for it. Note that when I pointed out that behavior in Norman, I did NOT vote him right then. Only later when he made other scummy plays did I vote him.

I'm sure your meta is great, but I'm not going to read it. I have very limited experience with people on this site (3 people in this game were in a game I was briefly in before the crash), and I do my best to not allow meta into a current game. I might read it later though, I do love seeing people caught by word choice. In the last game I played in on my regular site, I was sure I caught scum for word choice. Everyone thought I was crazy...they did end up being scum in the end.

I was just providing examples of my scumhunting in action. Read it or not at as you wish. You were just questioning my tactic, so I figured an example of what I was trying to say would be helpful.

Tammy, I think you just outwitted LMP with this because town does have a tendency to say things like that, alot of the time (I say it alot actually... In the Tits for Tots game I was in, I actually was kind of indesicive) and that I'm actually a townie. Eheheheheheheheh. Ah so much indifference in this game.

Just because a behavior can come from town doesn't exclude it from being a scum tell. It just has to be weighted accordingly and judged appropriately. So you really don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Because what you are doing is attempting to undermine and discredit whatever questions I ask, whatever interactions I have and whatever conclusions I come to. Town doesn't have a reason to behave this way. But, scum do.

I agree.

I'm especially weary about his scum hunting techniques. Looking for word choice can be a valid way to find scum. But, he's voting Normal for using Think and Might. I don't think this is a scum tell, especially on day one. Town has no idea who scum are for sure, we're going to say things like that. It's not a definitive scum tell. Also, town makes just as many mistakes in wording as scum do, so it's not a guarantee to use this technique, and it needs to be coupled with other things.

This is untrue. I expressed reservation about Norman for using that language, but I finally placed my vote on him because of his behavior in regards to his building wagon and his vote hop onto the other building wagon when a VC showed he could possibly swing the momentum of his building wagon. The language was a FACTOR, but it was NOT the sole reason I voted him. You're missing the point if you think his language was the ONLY reason I suspected him. And in this instance, I think you SHOULD read the link I provided to GB mafia, because in that case, just like this, language was only a FACTOR in my scum read on a player, and not the sole reason.

Prod times don't mean anything. 16 hours is a really long time.

This is one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen. Shadoweh is displaying panicky-consciousness-of-guilt behavior.

How do we know that there is a vig? Why are we even speculating about it?

Urge to follow policy lynch rising...

Yeah you do that. And while you're at it why don't you assassinate the vigilante!

WTF, vig claim?????????????

It was started by that CoolDog guy...

Vote: CoolDog

We'll come back to GNR.

This is so insane. He didn't start it, clearly Norman did, in those very posts you quoted. So WTF are you talking about?

Vote Count 1.5

Norman (7) -

Pine, Empking, kondi2424, LynchMePls, brizingre1, CooLDoG, Jackal711

kondi2424 (1) -

Lord Mhork

AurorusVox (2) -

greenknight, Shadoweh

CooLDoG (5) -

Shadow1psc, Norman, trekker, PeregrineV, ManiacalLemon

Shadow1psc (1) -

Guy_Named_Riggs

Pine (2) -

Mastermind of Sin, Foxace36

MaguaofIllusion (1) -

Feysal

Tammy (1) -

Haze

Zdenek (1) -

Tammy

Shadoweh (2) -

MaguaofIllusion, Zdenek

Not Voting (3) - AurorusVox, Y u no scum, Skenvoy

VLA - Haze

(expired on 2012-04-02 00:00:00)
With 26 alive, 14 are needed to secure a lynch.

Seeking 2 replacements for Guy_Named_Riggs and Skenvoy.
Prodding AurorusVox

If I had the ability to nuke every play on a wagon, I'd target CD wagon.

I just find it bizarre that you would find his vote less scummy had it come 7 minutes earlier.

NO NO NO. The vote would have been just as bad if the VC hadn't been there. The VC just illustrates it perfectly, AND makes it more likely that his reason for voting was to try and swing the momentum towards the counterwagon. In other words, it's extra evidence pointing to how awful his vote was.

He still seems scummy. The possibility of a jester worries me, however.

JESTER-SPEC SHOULD DIAF.

The possibility of a jester in this game is so close to zero that it is in fact zero.

QFT.

I will, however, hop on the CooLDoG wagon, as I agree that his play is appearing scummy to me as well.

List the reasons.

But you see, Empking, I'm town. And there's lots of reasons why I'm voting for Cooldog. One is his failure not to acknowledge my way of playing. 2ndly, he's calling us stupid for independent votes. And 3rdly, I don't like he's now calling me a hindrance to the town. I'm keeping my vote where it is until someone has good enough reason to coerce me.

Ok... So far it's just been discussional dissent. I don't even know if Cooldog is a scumbag anymore, I mean there's always two sides of the accusations. One side doesn't want to lynch Cooldog, the other side does.

If I can just figure out what side isn't bullshitting... But it's hard to tell without the day ending and actions are submitted to the mod. If only it were Day 2...

And if I'm town what does that make Cooldog and the rest of the people voting for him?

Unvote: Cooldog.

I don't know anymore... I should've used the reverse psychology tactic on Day 2 but it's too late for that. There has to be some way to sort everyone out without having to lynch them...

The "lots" of reasons he is voting CD seem to vanish the moment town sentiment starts forming in opposition to CD wagon. That's fascinating.

And by fascinating I mean "worthy of instant death".

Pretty much don't want to play this game anymore. People like Norman just make Mafia un-fun.

I'm a Chaotic Good Bard. I can Detect Law every night in search of the LE faction.

I don't see scum claiming alignment detecting Bard. So I'm gonna buy this claim.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Foxace

cuz fuck it.

You are a such a bad ascum player Pine to the point it is laughable. Have fun with a noose around your head after I am lynched. Go town, yadda yadda yadda. Lets get this day on with already.

Well fuck, didnt see your role claim.

I take that back, tho I believe you to be bullshitting anyways so I only take it half back. Oh well, EVERYONE JUMP ON TEH FAWX WAGON!

Self-inflicted head shot. Foxace is a perfectly acceptable lynch.

MOI's 656 is godly.

I would be fine with lynching one of:
Norm - Fairly obvious why
trekker - Sadly just another troll, doesn't seem to be putting any effort into the game at all apart from voting people without any reasons
ManiacalLemon - Seemed scummy in the old thread and has continued to be - Continued talk of a jester, trying to bring back a roleclaim debate that had been put to bed, and his jump onto the CD wagon.
PereV - Seems to be trying to stay under the radar, watching the town fight itself, and again his jump on the CD wagion reeks scumminess. @Perev reads please
Pine - His claim was totally unnesecary and I dont like the way that he seems to be trying to divide the town into lawful vs chaos, firstly for his claim, and secondly for his recent posts about Norman
greenknight - Basically what MoI said above

[LimMePls]

P.S. If you read all of Suzanne Collin's hunger games books, don't go see the movie. It'll piss you off. Jus' sayin'.

Disagree. The movie was good. You're probably one of those people that freaks out because "OMFG no TOM BOMBADIL!" Newsflash: Movies aren't books. That's why they say they're "adapted" from the book.

[LimMePls]

Been away for the weekend. Will post tomorrow.

[LimMePls]

@Mod: I need to replace out. Sorry for the inconvenience, but this game is just moving too fast for me to keep up