Brightest Day Mafia, Part 1 - GAME OVER

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:04 am

Also, keep in mind, there are 6 alive. it takes 4 to lynch.

Also as Kast pointed out, Vezok was at 3, and hiplop did not hammer for the win. If vezok was town and hiplop was mafia, then hammering vezok would have cleared Kast and Tans as non vanillizer, leading to the exact same KJ lynch we just did, and thus a mafia win. That's objective proof that hiplop cannot be mafia.

Also, what is a pinata? Multi-shot bullet proof? Bullet proof that gives bonuses to the team if it gets hit/killed?

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:12 pm

@Toast-
Vezok and I are only in a similar position in that Vezok and I both have investigation results saying we are not mafia.

-In order for Tans OR Kast to be vanillizer, it would require Vezok as a mafia buddy. The same does not hold the other way around.

-Vezok has claimed anti-town actions (N2 block claimed Tracker Kast, N3 block claimed WL PR Nikanor).
-Vezok's claimed action points at me as not mafia, or at the least, as confirmed not vanillizer AND confirmed not mafia killer on N2.

-Additionally, Vezok's botched early game claim is suspicious (part of it can be chalked up to Vezok being Vezok, but it also wouldn't be the first time Vezok played the "I'm lost and confused" card to get out of a messed up fake claim).
-His voting record and post history also show a complete lack of scumhunting (or really complete lack of game posts...) and avoidance of almost every scum wagon. There's also some cues where he followed Andy's vote, though that's not as damning.

The switch from Ludi to Subliminal was

very

scummy for that matter.

Vezok wrote:Do you really think Sinestro is a delayer?

Btw, this might actually be Vezok telling us we're stupid for believing his delayer fake claim. He might actually be slipping that he knows Sinestro is in fact NOT a delayer and is actually some other role (?GF-Vanillizer?).

KJ's push to lynch Vezok only makes sense if he expected Vezok to flip mafia. Anything else would result in his lynch (and even then he wouldn't be completely "in the clear").

@BB-

How would Hiplop hammering Vezok be an auto-mafia win?

IF Kast and Hiplop are mafia, THEN hammering Vezok would have resulted in a town delayer flip that confirms Kast and Tans as non-Vanillizer. The confirmation along with the info that Nikanor was JKed on N1 and Delayed on N3 (the two nights with no vanillizing) would have been confirmation of KJ and resulted in his lynch (ultimately it was enough to lynch him even WITHOUT Vezok flipping).

Kast, do you not think Vezok/Hiplop is a combination?

Vezok/Hiplop is a possibility, I'll have to think about that. It would explain why Hiplop was reluctant to lynch Vezok earlier and lynched KJ first instead. I'd say it might explain his investigation change...except that I can't see why Hiplop-mafia would do something like that when he could easily fake a guilty on Tans.

You're ignoring the fact OS knew he was roleblocked Night 1 and Vezok claimed that roleblock.

Vezok claimed the delay BEFORE OS claimed his action failed (#1048 & #1765). But that's not actually required. Vezok could certainly be a mafia GF with a delay ability (though the delay ability is doubtful given Andy's confirmed RB). If he's faking the delay, then it also explains the confusion that everyone seems to be having with too many blocking abilities on any team (Andy Mafia Blocker, ??? Mafia Vanillizer, OS Cult JoAT with blocking, Muffin town JoAT with blocking, TT town Jail Keeper, Tans ??? Ability Thief with blocking).

You're also ignoring the part where Tans targetted Andrius Night 1 - which you saw - what is your explanation for why mafia targeted eachother Night 1?

This is a good point. It does imply Tans as non-mafia. Off hand, thoughts that come to mind:
-Tans might be a mafia permanent role copier a la your prior speculation.
-Tans might be a regular ability copier instead of an ability thief (so he might have been copying Andy's RB to give mafia a second block). If this is the case, it could also explain the double vanillize on N2 but no double vanillize on N4 (ie. Vezok is Sinestro, GF, Vanillizer and Tans copied him N2, but N4 Tans was killing while Vezok was vanillizing).
-Similarly, Tans might could be a mafia Enhancer (mirror role to Kilowog just like the mirrored town and mafia 1xPGOs and mirrored roleblocker/redirector).

-Semi-related point, I think it was you that mentioned mafia would have a similar WL-Fake Claim if Cult had one. Not sure how likely that is given that none of the flipped mafia have mentioned any clue about the WL abilities (Toog/Apok/GW didn't even indicate understanding the concept of the WLs). If there were any scum WLs, then why didn't any of the lynched mafia hint/use a WL fake claim to avoid lynch earlier?

The big point against Hiplop/Vezok mafia though is still why did KJ protect Tans? The only thing I can see that explains that is if Tans was his recruit (and thus he knew Vezok would flip mafia).

@Hiplop-

toastytoast, is town.

WTF?!? Is that your investigation?

Toast was obv-town >_>. You should have investigated Tans. Y'know, like you said you would...

In post 3537, hiplop wrote:ill check tans, then.

-When did you actually send in your investigation?
-Why did you investigate Toast?
-Do you actually know what is going on in this game?

@BB/Tans-

In post 3420, hiplop wrote:MIDDAY COP, on the moment of the first lynch, i get to i vestigate someone

It is technically consistent with what he claimed before,

except for his target

.

@Lynch-
No matter how it's sliced (Hiplop or Tans), I can't really see anyone as a partner except for Vezok. Hell, even for a Kast or TT mafia, it pretty much requires/strongly implicates Vezok as a buddy.

(I guess only a BB mafia would open Vezok as an unlikely partner)

We need a mafia lynch. Vezok's the best bet for covering bases. Game play, votes, claims, interactions with other people (what little there is at least), all point as Vezok mafia.

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:47 pm

Hmm the amount of action modifiers (Block/Redirect/etc.) is kinda excessive.
Flipped/Confirmed:
Andy -Mafia Roleblocker
OS - Cult JoAT (w/Blocking)
Muffin - Town JoAT (w/Blocking)
LLD - Town Redirector

Claimed:
??? - Mafia Vanillizer (potentially mafia JoAT for symmetry)
Vezok - ??? Delayer
Tans - ??? Ability Thief
TT - Town JK

Counting LLD that makes 8 of 24 players with claimed blocking/redirection of some sort and 5 of them are flipped or claimed town abilities.

EBWOP:
@Hiplop-
It's hard to tell if that's genuine agreement or if that's, "I need to agree to save myself".

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:51 pm

@Hiplop-
Also, you didn't answer my questions

(or BB's...although I'm pretty sure that was answered previously...)

:
-When did you send in your day cop?
-Why did you switch to Toast?
-Are you actually paying attention to the game?

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:00 pm

@TT-

If you believe there to be a godfather, you cannot simply base it on an innocent result.

Actually didn't address this part; but the simple point is, it's not that I believe there is a godfather therefore Vezok is mafia; that's backwards. Vezok is probably mafia, but since there is an innocent on him, he must be GF if he is mafia.

@BB-
Don't want this to get lost:
-Did you check with mods whether a mafia member who got recruited by cult would investigate as "Mafia" or "Not-Mafia"? That could be the reason mafia didn't kill/vanilla you, in the event that Ludi recruited mafia before he got lynched and so cult controlled the kill on Muffin.

Kast · Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:04 pm

@Hiplop-
This is like pulling teeth...
-At around what time did you send it in (e.g. did you send it in after posting something, after reading someone else's post, etc.)?
--Does before lynch mean you submitted your investigation before hammering?

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:21 pm

BB wrote:I have mod confirmation that vanillialization happens AFTER roleblocking...

I'm guessing you're making assumptions based on what mod told you, because when I asked, mod explicitly wouldn't answer clearly

despite being a target of the vanilla ability

. Mod would not confirm whether the vanilla ability blocked our tracking result or whether it was the result of another ability. We also were told we don't know when a hypothetical vanilla ability would happen in the order because it would depend on whether the hypothetical ability said it blocked actions or not. This specifically was not clarified at the beginning of D5 when we asked again to try and determine if KJ could be telling the truth or could be cleared.

Since there are abilities that interact with other abilities, then you need to apply NAR's golden rule.

Actions:

-TT JKs KJ.
-??? vanillizes TT
-KJ recruits ?Tans?
Assuming KJ did not use any sort of blocking or redirection on the Vanillizer, then the vanilla resolves first since there are no actions that affect it.
-??? Vanillize succeeds and prevents TT from acting
-TT's JK is vanillized away
-KJ's recruit attempt succeeds

Under NAR, the ordering only matters when there is a conflict of abilities (or if the ability specifically states otherwise).

*IF* KJ had been the vanillizer, then your clarification would be relevant (which is why I asked the same thing to mod at the start of this day...but mod wouldn't give a clear/straight answer). In that case, then ordering would determine whether TT gets vanilla'ed or whether KJ gets blocked. Mod didn't want to clarify before, but I assume that since KJ is dead now, it doesn't clear/directly affect anything.

BB wrote:Regardless, I ALSO have confirmation that if there WAS a culted-person (just one) that the only way he/she wins is if he is one of the last two players standing AND it would result in a JOINT win.

Good idea to ask this; however you realize culted mafia would not get stuck in a situation with just 2 players right? Assuming this game works like BNM, if Black Lanterns culted mafia, the culted mafia retains the mafia factional kill ability. The question/point I made earlier was wondering what happens if black culted one mafia member and the game ended up with that culted mafia and one non-culted mafia. They couldn't lynch each other. They couldn't night kill each other.

It seems reasonable to have a Black Lantern/Mafia joint victory in that case.

A different/mirror situation for this would be the event that one townie is recruited and the only players remaining are the recruited townie and one non-recruited townie. In that case, neither has a kill ability and neither can be lynched.

BB wrote:In other words, if a mafia-turned-cult happened, it is in OUR advantage, because now they can ONLY win if they are in the final two with a TOWN member, not a mafia member.

If a mafia-turned-cult happened, it is a TOWN LOSS if we don't lynch him. The fact that Friend maintained his Mason-Lover status despite being culted, but that Kdub lost his

vigilante

is pretty much proof that cult recruiting in this game works the same way as BNM; recruited player loses his personal PR, but keeps any factional PRs (Mason QT/Lover Ability/Mafia QT/Mafia Factional Kill/etc.).

As far as the early flipped mafia, none of the first three posted much, but they did have the similarity that despite posting very little, they all made a point to protecting Vezok. This might be indication that Vezok is powerful scum (ie. Sinestro, GF-Vanillizer)

Spoiler: Toog - Mostly avoided antagonizing people; defended Andy and Vezok (as well as Kdub and Toast)

Spoiler: GW - Sheeps a few people (no mafia); Buddies the obv townies; Defends Andy/Vezok/Tans

Spoiler: Apok - Initially attacks Andy/Vezok w/o reasons; Later defends both and calls them town; Pushes CJ and weak mudslinging on half the remaining playerbase

Also caught this while reading through:

Vezok wrote:My ability seems stronger after I realized this is double lynch.

Please explain this statement. Your claimed "delay" ability doesn't seem to have anything to do with double lynch.

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:24 pm

EBWOP:
It should be clear, enough I think, but I left out this line:

Regardless of what the order is, it doesn't tell us whether there was a recruit or not
. Since there are abilities that interact with other abilities, then you need to apply NAR's golden rule.

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:31 pm

An ability that is stronger in double day implies some vote/lynch related ability (e.g. Governor, Vote-Stealer). That soft claim almost seems like setup for faking a double voter claim later (presumably coordinating with Apok).

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:02 pm

@BB-
Read what I

actually

posted instead of just flipping out.

Also just got confirmation from the mod because I re-asked both questions to double check:

YOU EITHER MADE A BAD ASSUMPTION OR MISREAD WHAT THE MOD POSTED. IF YOU WERE

BLUFFING

, THEN NOW IS THE TIME TO COME CLEAN, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY ZERO REASON TO INCREASE CONFUSION NOW WHEN WE CAN EASILY CONFIRM THINGS WITH MOD.

@Mod-

-If the game ends with a single culted town member and a single non-culted town member (recruiter already dead), does the Town and Cult have a Joint Win?

(Can't lynch each other and no kills)

-If the game ends with a single culted mafia member and a single non-culted mafia member (recruiter already dead), does the Mafia and Cult have a Joint Win?

(Can't lynch each other and can't kill each other)

-If there was a hypothetical ability that turned a player into vanilla, what part of the NAR order would it fall under:
--If it roleblocks the target?
--If it does not roleblock the target?

-Do actions in this game follow the Golden Rule of NAR or does it JUST follow the order?
--For example,

BLOCKING

happens

BEFORE

REDIRECTING

. However, if PLAYERA

ROLEBLOCKS

PLAYERB and PLAYERC

REDIRECTS

PLAYERA to PLAYERD, then does PLAYERB get

ROLEBLOCKED

?

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:06 pm

EBWOP:

@Mod-

All the roles in the questions I asked are just hypothetical standard roles (ie. not some STRONGMAN roleblocker or whatever, just standard roles).

Kast · Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:12 pm

@BB-
You'd have a point if a TOWNIE got recruited. However, a recruited TOWNIE won't know who the mafia are, so if we're in that situation, then it wouldn't help (also if we're in that situation, it would probably be you or TT).

The PROBLEM with your plan is if a culted mafia recruit comes forward and names someone, then we lynch that person he names; if the person he names is non-mafia, then we're fucked. Mafia/Culted Mafia kills a townie at night. The following day the remaining townies get end-gamed, Town LOSES, and Mafia & Cult Joint Win.

Kast · Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:45 pm

@BB-
Did you even read what I posted?

You're taking one case (single culted-townie with single non-culted-townie) and trying to apply that to a completely different case (single culted-mafia with a night kill and a single non-culted-townie). We can ask that one too.

@Mod-

Three more clarifications please.

In post 3622, The Book of Oa wrote:
In post 3618, Kast wrote:-If the game ends with a single culted mafia member and a single non-culted mafia member (recruiter already dead), does the Mafia and Cult have a Joint Win?
(Can't lynch each other and can't kill each other)

I will not confirm this either way. It would depend on what culted and non-culted mafia is able to do, which I will not reveal to you.

-If it's an end-game with a single non-culted mafia goon and a single culted mafia goon (hence both can not to anything), would the mafia and cult have a Joint Win?
-If there was a single culted mafia goon (in control of the mafia night kill, but no other powers) and a single non-culted vanilla townie, would it be a Joint Win?

In post 3622, The Book of Oa wrote:
In post 3618, Kast wrote:-Do actions in this game follow the Golden Rule of NAR or does it JUST follow the order?

I think one would say that it follows the Golden Rule AND the order.

--For example,
BLOCKING
happens
BEFORE

REDIRECTING
. However, if PLAYERA
ROLEBLOCKS
PLAYERB and PLAYERC
REDIRECTS
PLAYERA to PLAYERD, then does PLAYERB get
ROLEBLOCKED
?

In this situation, PlayerB would get roleblocked, and PlayerD would not.

O_o...what you're saying here does NOT follow the Golden Rule, AND it's

different

from what you said in PM. According to regular NAR and the Golden Rule, PlayerB would not be roleblocked because the roleblock would be redirected to PlayerD.

As a more concrete example, assume we had these night actions:
-LLD

REDIRECTS

Andrius to FrozenMirror.
-Andrius

ROLEBLOCKS

Muffin.
-FrozenMirror

INVESTIGATES

Magister Ludi
-Nobody else takes any actions.

Would the

ROLEBLOCK

affect Muffin or FrozenMirror?
-The Golden Rule and regular NAR would result in FrozenMirror getting blocked.
-Your answer right now that Muffin is blocked means we ignore the Golden Rule and use the order exclusively.

To be clear, you are saying a

REDIRECT

ability does not affect any of the abilities higher than it (

COPY

,

HIDE

,

BUS

, or

BLOCK

). And similarly, a BLOCK couldn't affect a COPY, HIDE, or BUS. And similarly a BUS couldn't affect a COPY or HIDE.

Kast · Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:50 pm

Vezok wrote:Instead of getting the kill after lynch they get it after the second lynch.

That still doesn't make sense. If your ability says it delays an action for 2 lynches, then having it be double day makes your ability worse, not better.

Previously you claimed your ability delays until the following night. How does that have anything to do with the first or second lynch of the day?

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:25 am

If we lose this one it's all on you two.

Vezok's been playing scummy and his claim is complete nonsense. The flipped mafia also all strongly defended Vezok (and two of them defended Andy as well and didn't bus each other).

Hiplop's behavior just doesn't fit with mafia. If he was mafia, he could have easily saved Andy by joining the Nikanor lynch instead of the Ludi lynch. He could have easily won today by hammering Vezok first then letting KillJoy get lynched as the most probable remaining Vanillizer.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:32 am

@BB-

@Mod-
-If it's an end-game with a single non-culted mafia goon and a single culted mafia goon (hence both can not to anything), would the mafia and cult have a Joint Win?
Again, I have to say, I can't answer this without revealing information that you are not supposed to know for sure. I'm not going to reveal how mafia and cult interact.
-If there was a single culted mafia goon (in control of the mafia night kill, but no other powers) and a single non-culted vanilla townie, would it be a Joint Win?
Assuming that a culted mafia goon WOULD have a night kill, then NO. The culted mafia goon would win for the cult.

It's not solid proof (since mods won't give solid proof), but it's pretty likely we'll lose if endgame is culted mafia with one townie. Mod doesn't want to say for sure how that interacts, but that's exactly how it worked in Blackest Night Mafia (and hell if Tans wasn't culted mafia, then mod probably wouldn't care and would share how that interacts). It's not like there's any reason to avoid talking about it, unless that's actually the situation we're in.

When Hiplop flips town, we're going to go into night; Vezok will probably vanilla BB (it won't matter anyway). Tans will kill me or Toast. Tomorrow Tans could even work with town and lynch Vezok, but we still lose since he would nightkill and endgame the remaining townies.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:38 am

This is like a repeat of Subliminal and Ludi, except this time we're not going to get a second chance to do it right. Let's do the right thing and lynch the scummy player.

VOTE: Vezok

Oh another point, the fact mods are completely unwilling to answer something about any situations that we are pretty likely to be in, but perfectly willing to answer clarifications on how a non-roleblocking vanillization ability would work, pretty clearly indicates that the vanillization is a roleblocking ability (meaning it's the same time as jailkeeping).

Everything points to the vanillization roleblocking Toast and thus a successful recruit last night. A Tans recruit is the only thing that fits with KJ's behavior.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:31 pm

Me and BB are just as responsible as anyone else.

This is clearly false. If we lose because you guys ignore obv scum, it's your fault. The fact that you guys are ignoring the obvious scum (especially BB being hyper ADHD with his suspects) that got Muffin killed instead of BB or you. Muffin understood clearly that Vezok was mafia. Hell he was also right that Tans was the actual Vanillizer and Nikanor was non-mafia (though he was wrong since Nikanor was actually cult not town). If you make us lose by screwing up an easy/obvious/clear vote because you're still stubbornly holding on to your D1 suspects instead of looking at new evidence, THAT IS ALL ON YOU.

Andy flipped scum-blocker. We know cult had multiple starting members, but they dead. soo....now you think vezok is scum, when before you felt his role was highly plausible.

Plausible does not mean that is the only possibility. Since that claim we've learned that cult DID have their own blocker. We've learned that town had a powerful blocker who got even more powerful in Muffin. If Vezok is town, then it means Tans is town as well which means there's Toast, Tans, Vezok, Muffin ALL powerful town blocking powers. 2 town blocking powers is plausible. 4 is not. Add in LLD's redirection power and that's 5 blocking/redirection powers under the town belt. Not likely.

Again, changed your mind now.

Are you even READING my post? It clearly states that EITHER TANS IS THE VANILLIZER OR NIKANOR IS THE VANILLIZER. Nikanor flipped non-vanillizer that means Tans is the vanillizer.

Spoiler: You're posting this BS as your reasons Hiplop is scum and ignoring EVERYTHING I've posted about Vezok and all the back quotes links interactions, etc.? Everything you said about Hiplop applies even MORE SO to Vezok. You've been convinced Vezok is just idiot town and giving him a free pass on the VI card. Vezok playing a VI is normal for Vezok. Vezok playing a scummy VI is normal for Vezok scum.

What I think gives Hiplop the edge as scum is the fact that 1) He should have checked Tans, 2) His odd restrictions for his White Lantern Power

Not checking Tans is an idiot move. It's not a scummy move. Hiplop as scum has absolutely zero incentive to not check Tans.

This objection applies in droves to Vezok; his action use/choices are straight up scummy and anti-town.

Hiplop's ability restriction is a bit odd, but

it's not straight up inconsistent and he didn't change it when it got questioned like Vezok did

.

For one, he did very little scum-hunting, but a shit-ton of cult hunting.

Hiplop didn't do much cult or scum hunting.

Vezok did even less of both.

When I jailkept Ludi (although if we are to believe Oversoul, I went nowhere), he commented that the single kill suggests Ludi could be mafia. Unfortunately, I forget as I'm writing this why I thought that was interesting...

If this says anything, it says Hiplop probably isn't mafia. Btw, this was one of Hiplop's few attempts at any hunting and it's scum-hunting not cult hunting.

ANYWAYS, once cult is out of the way, he simply goes "mafia is in kast/tans/vezok"...which is basically his only option and doesn't make sense given the fact that he copped me.

He essentially said "the guy who I investigated is not mafia and BB is not mafia". How does that not make sense? Confirmation bias for the lose.

I also think scum with a fake cop would be more likely to claim an innocent than a guilty, because it gives no information.

You think it is likely that scum will claim a stupid investigation instead of trying to get a townie mislynched?

Claiming a guilty on someone would put us in a much different situation b/w himself and the target. so, again...why choose me?

Claiming a guilty on Tans wouldn't put us in any different a spot. It's clear that it's either Vezok and Tans as mafia together, OR it's some combination of Vezok/Kast/Hiplop. Tans/Kast or Tans/Hiplop doesn't work. If Hiplop wasn't an idiot and investigated Tans, then it would STILL be between Hiplop/Vezok, Tans/Vezok, or Hiplop/Kast. Not any bit different from now.

I don't think Vezok is godfather. I think Godfather was someone who I hadn't investigated yet, because I was not blocked nor killed, suggesting Mafia was completely fine with me investigating, suggesting I hadn't hit the Godfather yet because they wanted me to reveal an innocent on them (i.e., Kast).

That or they knew you were going to investigate Kast and give Tans/Vezok a free pass. Plus they knew Muffin was onto them (Muffin's suspect list was Vezok, Tans, & BB).

Also, given KJ's flip as non-mafia, we know mafia wasn't vanillizing TT to let KJ recruit. If they didn't care about BB's investigation, and they just wanted TT's power gone, they could have vanillized Muffin and killed TT instead. But they didn't.

For that matter, if you think Kast/Hiplop is mafia, then Hiplop has to be the vanillizer and Kast would have had to be the killer. But given ambiguity of Muffin's end of day statement, it would make tons more sense to vanilla Muffin and kill Toast, otherwise mafia risk losing their kill.

I concur with Toasty's theory that mafia would have at least ONE person being vocal/active/talkative.

Mafia HAD someone vocal. His name was Andy. He got lynched. Now we're trying to lynch his buddy. Well I'm trying to lynch his buddy. Dunno what you're actually trying to do.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:36 pm

Also consider N2 night actions. There was 3 mafia alive. Andy plus two more. There were AT LEAST 2 night actions used by mafia:
-Multi-shot Vanillize
-Mafia Kill

There was also potentially one more action:
-Andy's Roleblock

I was delayed by Vezok, so if Vezok is town and I am the GF, then I couldn't have done either the kill OR the Vanillize.

Claiming that it is Andy-Roleblock, Kast-GF, Hiplop-Vanillize would mean that we PREDICTED that Vezok would block Kast, so Andy CHOSE TO SKIP his roleblock in order to kill while Peregrine motivated Hiplop (someone he didn't trust). Andy ALSO took the gamble that Subliminal didn't take any actions and claimed a block on him; even though Subliminal had not claimed or hinted at anything other than being a PR with some kind of action.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:50 pm

@TT-
Read #3659. Explain how night actions happened if Kast and Hiplop are mafia together.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:57 pm

@BB-

Also consider N2 night actions. There was 3 mafia alive. Andy plus two more. There were AT LEAST 2 night actions used by mafia:
-Multi-shot Vanillize
-Mafia Kill

There was also potentially one more action:
-Andy's Roleblock

I was delayed by Vezok, so if Vezok is town and I am the GF, then I couldn't have done either the kill OR the Vanillize.

Claiming that it is Andy-Roleblock, Kast-GF, Hiplop-Vanillize would mean that we PREDICTED that Vezok would block Kast, so Andy CHOSE TO SKIP his roleblock in order to kill while Peregrine motivated Hiplop (someone he didn't trust). Andy ALSO took the gamble that Subliminal didn't take any actions and claimed a block on him; even though Subliminal had not claimed or hinted at anything other than being a PR with some kind of action.

You didn't explain why it can't be Kast/Vezok or why it can't be Vezok/Tans.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:00 pm

@BB-
In BNM, mafia were able to submit kill and their personal action if they were the last mafia remaining. I would guess it's the same here.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:03 pm

And for N4, why would I propose a plan that involves MUFFIN ROLEBLOCKING KAST and BB INVESTIGATING TANS, if Kast is Mafia GF and Hiplop is Mafia Vanillizer?

That would make any GF ability useless and would mean mafia loses either the Kill or the Vanillize.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:30 pm

@BB-
-So because you can't explain it you just pretend it didn't happen >_>?

Kast, explain the OS N1 block if Vezok is scum. Is Vezok a real delayer?

-There's lots of possibilities that we've already gone over.

--If Vezok/Tans is mafia, then Andy obviously didn't roleblock Tans and Vezok likely claimed Andy's block. Vezok's N3 target was a claimed Townie BP who was nigh confirmed at the time.
--We have no idea whether OS really got blocked. He claimed he did an "investigation" on CJ which is obviously a lie. He might have just lied to go along with Vezok*.

Also, if Vezok was scum faking a delay on a vanillilized role, why not select WLC/Mera instead?

-At the time Vezok claimed, we were trying to figure out whether my lack of investigation result was a result of the Vanillize ability. Vezok's claim effectively postponed that. Vezok claiming the Delay on me also made it clear that I wasn't the vanillizer, which directly added to the WLC mislynch since he claimed late.

But you'll have to explain why or how does it make any more sense to fake a delay on ONE unclaimed vanillized townie PR than to fake a delay on A DIFFERENT vanillized townie PR. Both cases he's claiming a scummy action and both point to him as a liar.

*-The thing is, Vezok isn't the brightest when it comes to fake claims. He'll can and does claim things that get him in trouble later (like his claimed Delay on me). When he's town, he often gets confused about things, but mistakes aren't the same as scummy actions or flat out lying/changing his story.

Kast · Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:33 pm

@BB-
I'm starting to suspect you don't actually read anything I post unless it's

BIG

or

BOLD

...

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:11 am

@Mod-
Thanks for the game. Pretty well balanced all things considered. It would have been more fun to try this with a full team instead of just me and Andy vs the world.
+I enjoyed decimating cult for the second time in a row (and it's a slight consolation that despite losing at least their cheating didn't net them a win).
+It was actually interesting/amusing that you recycled me and Tans.
-The end-game admission that you're not using NAR after saying you were using NAR all game was a bit of a wrench in the plans. Even though BB's reasoning was crap-logic, his conclusion from your answer was right and essentially mod confirmation that Tans wasn't mafia. REALLY wish you'd stuck to your policy and didn't answer his question about a mafia ability.
-Not using NAR is really weird. Town would have been completely confused if LLD wasn't killed early.

@TT/BB-
Congrats. Tomorrow lynch me and Tans. Vezok isn't mafia. If there's any other scum, it's Tans as some kinda independent. I've asked mod to just end it instead of dragging things out if Tans is town.

Also, we didn't vanillize WLC. That was either Tans doing some kind of reflection or Peregrine's ability.

Sometimes playing the illogical/irrational/stubborn gut read wins.

@Mafia-
Hiplop threw this win away. Apok and GW didn't even play. Sorry Toog and Andy, I miscalculated Hiplop's ability to follow a simple plan. I miscalculated Toast's stubbornness about Vezok as town. If we had a guaranteed Vanilla instead of the conditional thing we had, it would have been Muffin vanilla and TT kill.

@Town-
BB you're pretty predictable. It was a pain dropping so many hints about Nikanor as scum before you finally "realized" that he "had to be" the vanillizer. You're too stubborn to actually listen to anyone else, but if we drop enough "hints" that you "figure out" something "on your own" you run at it full throttle and completely ignore anything else. You lucked out this time so I guess you'll just disregard this.

Also trying to get people modkilled for stupid, petty things like "his breadcrumb is a code" is lame. If you want modkills, ask for one from all of the cult. Ask for one for Tans quoting his mod PM.

Town owes cult for this win. Hiplop's flareup and pretty much all the suspicion on him only came as a result of KJ's post death claims.

@Cult-
You guys were extremely easy to read this game and you deserve your loss. You were easily the most powerful faction with huge potential. Ludi had it the worst though, CJ's Orange claim was what really got you lynched in the end. It would have been interesting to see how things went without the obv scum mistakes.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:33 am

Kast2 here. Huh, is this over? good game.

BB, I lolled every time we buddied you; it felt like playing a yoyo. Anytime we posted an attack on your logic, you'd immediately OMGUS, and anytime we posted reconciliatory or buddying posts to you, you completely removed us from consideration. Too bad you weren't good at picking up the hints or following introductory level logic.

Cult; I'm glad we got you. Wish you didn't feel the need to sore loser cheat us with your back-from-the-grave dead posts.

Nik/KJ: wtf? I've never seen such poor logic of crazy playing. Made for a...less than fun experience.

Muffin/WLC/Mr.S/Friend/NoPoint/Frozen Mirror - I was impressed by your play and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Andy - You are incomparable. Don't ever change.

Peregrinne - Sorry about attacking you early; felt like I was seriously pissing you off, but they were all valid and sound objections so no hard feelings?

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:34 am

Also, if cult *does* have someone else, they had better win. 3 man cult, all with better powers than anyone in the mafia team...with night recruiting...lol the only reason game's gone as long as it has is their idiotic plays and inability to guess mafia until everyone else was already dead...

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:42 pm

@Mod-

Oh, if the game isn't over already, please modkill me right now since claiming is clearly and obviously against my win con. I'd like to move on to spoilers and post game.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:29 pm

@BB-
Not at all. It's the exact same thing that happens when it's inevitable that town has lost. Caught scum that forcing players to wait through another week and forcing mod to waste time with chasing down actions from the end game lurkers then sort through things when it doesn't matter is just being a bad loser. It was a good game and now it's done.

I'm sure people from the dead thread have feedback and comments about what happened/is happening; if anything it's pretty inconsiderate to make them continue to wait for no reason when the outcome is inevitable.

Game practically solved...

Mafia

-

Toogeloo

,

Atrocitus (Uncultable 2-Shot Extra-Janitor)

, leader of the

Red Lantern Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

, lynched D1.1.

Uncultable meant we survive a recruit attempt. Normally cult could kill mafia by trying to recruit us (we would get recruited then immediately die). This also meant cult would KNOW we were mafia.
Janitor meant if he did the mafia kill, then his kill would be janitored (not helpful in multi-scum).

-

Apokalyptica,

Cyborg Superman (Mid-day Vote Stealer)

, member of the

Sinestro Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

lynched D2.1.

After the first lynch he could steal a vote from someone. Not sure specifics since he was a lurker/MIA even in the mafia thread.

-

Ghostwriter

,

Anti-Monitor (1-shot PGO Publisher)

, member of the

Sinestro Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

, lynched D2.2.

It was technically a Mid-Day Publisher. After the first lynch, he could submit a message for mod to post publicly. Cute for early game confusion, but useless in end game.

-

Andrius,

Arkillo (Roleblocker)

, member of the

Sinestro Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

, lynched D4.2.

The only real mafia PR.

-

Hiplop

,

Bleez (2-shot Vanillizer)

, member of the

Red Lantern Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

, lynched D5.2.

Vanillizer meant Hiplop could name a player and guess the character. If he was right, then the player would become vanilla. Mod's would not tell us what the vanilla PM actually said nor whether it would block the player from using his powers (which is why it was vexing that they effectively told BB how mafia's power works when they wouldn't tell mafia how it works). Halfway through the game it was clarified that Hiplop might have not understood how his power actually works.

-

Kast,

Sinestro (Uncultable GF)

, leader of the

Sinestro Corps

, aligned with the

mafia

, endgamed D5.2.

That's it. Sinestro is a lame GF. You've got your vote and your voice. And you don't suicide if cult recruits you.

Cult

-

Candle Jack

Magister Ludi, Nekron (Undying Cult Leader)

, leader of the

Black Lantern Corps

, lynched D4.1.

I bet he was inv. immune.

-

Nikanor

Killjoy,

Black Hand (Cult Bulletproof Pinata), member of the Black Lantern Corps

Nekron (Cult Leader)

, leader of the

Black Lantern Corps

, lynched D5.1

I think BB's guess was right. Prolly lynching him would have released the rings.

-

Oversoul, Scar (Cult JOAT)

, member of the

Black Lantern Corps

, died D4.1.

Based on claims, this was another STRONG JoAT:
-Vanillize (used N1 but delayed until N2)
-Day Kill (used D2)
-Roleblock (used N3)
-Day Cop (??)

-

nopointinactingup,

Hawkman

(1-Shot BP

Lover-Mason)

, member of the

Justice League

, member of the

Black Lantern Corps

, committed suicide Night 2.
-

inHimshallibe

Kdub,

Guy Gardner

(1-Shot PGO Vigilante)

, member of the

Green Lantern Corps

[/strike] member of the

Black Lantern Corps

, died Night 3.

This game needed an uncultable Serial Killer to balance the double days.

Townies

-

ooba

,

Lex Luthor (Town 1-Shot Governor)

, member of the

Orange Lantern Corps

, aligned with the

town

, lynched D1.2.
-

Lady Lambdadelta,

Deadman (Town Redirector)

, member of the

Justice League

, aligned with the

town

, died Night 1.
-

FrozenMirror,

Munk (Cult Cop)

, member of the

Indigo Tribe

, aligned with the

town

died Night 1.
-

mastin2,

Dove (Unrecruitable)

, member of the team

Hawk and Dove

, aligned with the

town

died Day 2.
-

kondi2424

PeregrineV,

Kilowog (Drill Sergeant)

, member of the

Green Lantern Corps

, aligned with the

town

, died Night 2.
-

Bogre

Friend,

Hawkgirl (1-Shot Watcher Lover-Mason)

, member of the

Justice League

, aligned with the

town

, died Night 2.
-

WeyounsLastClone,

Mera (Vanillized Townie, Former Anti-Cult Doctor)

, aligned with the

town

, lynched D3.1.
-

Mr Subliminal,

Maxwell Lord (1-Shot Commuter)

, aligned with

town

, lynched D3.2.
-

zMuffinMan,

Captain Boomerang

(Weak JOAT)

(Strong JOAT)

, aligned with

town

, died Night 4.

-

Blackberry,

???? (Mafia Cop)

, member of the

Justice League

, aligned with

town

, survived to endgame.
-

ToastyToast,

Star Sapphire (Jailkeeper)

, member of the

Star Sapphires

, aligned with

town

, survived to endgame.
-

vezokpiraka,

Ice (Mafia Cop)

, member of the

Justice League

, aligned with

town

, survived to endgame.

If there's any 3rd party, then it's here:

-

tanstalas,

Larfleeze (Vanillized Townie, Former Ability Thief)

, member of the

Orange Lantern Corps

, aligned with the

town

, survived to endgame.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:58 pm

Yeah, you prolly did, but I forgot and I didn't feel like digging through 3 pages of posts when I can just do all the rest from the OP.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:57 pm

Wait...who made WLC vanilla?

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:59 pm

Also, damn we were more powerful than we thought...next time scum teammembers NEED to submit their entire role PM in QT. Toog you didn't tell us you got an EXTRA KILL.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:08 pm

Also, lolz we were right, Black had no investigation abilities so they DIDN'T actually know who was town/scum other than the OMGUSing and bad fake claims.

And Tans you didn't mention that your Ability Thief was a DOUBLE ROLEBLOCK >_>

@LLD-
Agreed, I've never once said that mafia was underpowered in this game. I mentioned several times that I liked the balance. What made it a stacked game against mafia was that 2 of our members were unannounced MIA for the entire game and Hiplop went on V/LA for the entire middle section. Toog hadn't claimed his ability to us, but that's our own fault for letting him die D1. Essentially we played this game as a 3 man mafia team.

@Tans-
Damn you vanillizer!!! J/K, but lol that's an interesting dynamic/interaction. Did mods mention anything to you about getting powered up that night?

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:28 pm

Why did Drill Sergeant (Miscellaneous) successfully enhance Roleblocker (Roleblock)?

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:50 pm

[quote="GI]No farking clue why the scumteam is flipping out to dive onto the WLC wagon.[/quote]We thought WLC was lying about the vanilla since we knew we didn't do it. We also didn't know at the time whether the vanillizer ability would roleblock and stop Tans from using the stolen roleblock since none of the mods wanted to answer that for us >_<. (We later got the answer by asking what would happen if Hiplop vanillized Andy and Andy roleblocked Hiplop).

Kdub wrote:The more I think about it, the more confused I am about why the mafia killed me last night.

You were either town vig who would shoot mafia or SK who would also shoot mafia. We needed to remove one of the two mafia killing night actions (either the CR or the SK/Vig). Ultimately we went for you and blocked the CR. You getting recruited was unexpected but had the effect we wanted (mafia no longer was in danger from night actions).

OS wrote:If they seriously go with Kast's plan they are fucking retarded. Seriously. I destroyed Kast's credibility. This town does suck. Jesus.

This is why everyone lynched Ludi. You did not have a realistic understanding of the game state or what people believed or did not believe.

The White Lantern ring mechanic was fun, but balance-wise seems off. It triggers on town doing something right (which is neat), but it's essentially a "WIN MORE" instead of a "BALANCE" mechanic.

GI wrote:I think at the end of the day the fact that you had three members of your team who basically killed themselves and you're still not in terrible shape going into endgame bespeaks the raw power your 6 man team had.
...
Toogaloo was so scummy a member of another scumteam faked a guilty on him for towncred.

Toog's getting a bad rap that's really unfair. Nik made an idiot gambit but got lucky. Toog had posted something like 1 non-joke post and some players hadn't even posted at all yet. It was an RVS "joke" investigation that town took way more seriously than they should have. I don't normally agree with much of Toog's playstyle, but it's really not fair to pin his lynch on his play.

Manga wrote:Kast goes into flail mode and posts these obnoxiously long walls under pressure as scum. Unfortunately I don't think anyone in thread alive actually knows this.

Not completely accurate. I post different walls as town and scum. Having played in both types of games you tend to have better insight than most into which is which. If I had to self categorize the difference, I'd say the scum walls tend to focus more on the logic and theory and brush past other parts, while the town walls tend to push more emotion/gut.

Magua wrote:Part of me figured that claiming to be 100% really truly anticult would keep the mafia from hammering us

You were right...mafia wasn't going to hammer you. Town did it almost entirely on their own...

Mod wrote: It was meant to do two things: penalize the town if they massclaimed (since massclaiming has the potential to break any flavor-based game) and limit the swinginess of the non-vanilla setup.

Massclaim would have flavor broken. It would immediately have outed 3 mafia and 1 cult (one mafia and one cult labors of twelve members without WL claims; two scum WL claims who weren't labors of twelve members). Vezok was the "exception" but town would have been better off without him anyway.

Mod wrote:I thought it worked quite beautifully.

Requiring the character name for a vanillize made the power much weaker, and ultimately was the deciding factor in vanillizing Toast instead of Muffin. In that sense, it achieved it's purpose by rewarding town with a win since Muffin's survival with Toast's death would have almost definitely resulted in Muffin thinking his ability cleared me.

SKrew wrote:BB
killjoy
Mr. S
Andy
Magister
Oversoul

Might have missed some
Also, other people of the same faction as modkilled person might have been killed as well because you can't modkill a dead person.

My brother wanted Tans modkilled when he quoted his mod PM saying he became a vanilla. I told my brother it would be a lame modkill and please don't ask for it.

The difference between Ludi and OS and killjoy,

The big problem with Killjoy is he KNEW it was against the rules and INTENTIONALLY CONTINUED. Andy, OS, Ludi all did it without really realizing they were breaking the rules and stopped when they realized. Lots of people broke the using colored fonts rule, but stopped when it was pointed out.

I told Kast (who was asking about this stuff) what I just told you, without telling him that it didn't matter because the cult was all dead.

So I think I managed to give away nothing, while still being fair.

Lol. It was already clear cult was all gone. I was hoping you could do something to balance out the whole "oh Hiplop is mafia? Ok, we'll lynch Hiplop now and put a clear on Tans and Vezok". I didn't expect anything, but there's always HOPE.

@Muffin-
Btw, I was really very sad when you adjusted the plan so that you were no longer self redirecting me (that was a very obvious claim btw). I didn't think it was safe to ask you to stick with the original plan. I was happy when BB asked you to revert and you agreed. I was sad again when I realized BB wouldn't do the townie thing and realize you would go with the plan you laid out.

I suppose wildcards don't expect townies to play like townies.

Kast · Fri Oct 07, 2011 10:52 pm

@Tans-
Lolz, read the dead thread. YOU vanillized WLC. You got powered up. Your roleblock from Andy turned into a Vanillizer ability. It's a bit weird that mods didn't tell you that (ultimately it worked for town, but that's an extremely unlikely, exceptional coincidence).

Kast · Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:22 pm

GI wrote:Otherwise it literally did nothing most of the time, and that's kinda
bad

unnatural
.

...and that's why we use Natural Action Resolution

I can see it would be more work, but when people are told throughout the game that things are being done one way, it's disconcerting when mods announce on the final day "haha we messed up, we're actually running this game completely different from how we've been saying from the beginning". Sometimes that doesn't make a difference, but in this case BB misunderstood your messages as confirmation that Tans was not recruited (thus making him town).

Personally, I think the fair thing would be to just refer him to NAR as had been done throughout the game, and if he was asking questions specifically about how the mafia vanillizer role worked, then just tell him he doesn't know OR that "it depends on what the vanillizer's role PM says".

@Tracker Claim-
We completely BSed about the Tans targetting Andy. My brother had made the breadcrumb then just posted some stuff claiming we believed Tans was innocent. The original plan was to use the other "breadcrumbs" as if they were indicating that we thought Andy was scum and did some kind of negative action on Tans. But after Tans claim, I tried spinning them around and some of them worked pretty credibly. Btw, this is why I rarely put any stock into the traditional "breadcrumbs" that people like to drop. It's easy for scum to go back and retroactively assign meaning to a random or oddly phrased post.

@OS-
The way you buddied people who were "obv-town" at the time and then turned around when they pushed you made it clear you were cult. Night actions (even assuming you were lying scum), made it clear you were not cult recruiter. By D3, it was obvious that Ludi was CR, and you were in a position where you

should

have realized it, however you didn't even seem willing to consider it. All that together kinda gave you away as some flavor of cult that was not cult recruiter. It probably helped that mafia had most of the rest of the game figured out, but town should have seen you as some flavor anti-town. Your D3 play also seemed a lot less rational and a lot more desperate than your D1 and D2 play (even ignoring the explosion you had with BB).

@BB-
You weren't seen as a threat by mafia. You were too random and too willing to chase minor leads while ignoring the major stuff.

@Mods-
I think a much better balancing option than Toog as mafia bonus killer would be the mafia team as a whole gaining a bonus kill when the white lanterns activate. At that point in the game, with cult either dealt with or near dealt with, town doesn't need the double day as much, and a double night kill (especially one flavored as Sinestro becoming a White Lantern...) would return that balance without screwing up the early day game play.

@NPIAU-
I've talked my way out of lots of lynches, but this would have been impossible.
-Toast was absolutely set on Vezok-town since D1. Nothing was gonna change that. He would probably be the ideal NK (assuming Vezok screwed up and didn't delay me).
-Tans was already anti-Kast since WLC's flip. Hiplop flipping vanillizer

might

have pacified him, but after a Vezok lynch, he would have come right back at me.
-BB was random, but the mod answer to his vanillizer question convinced him that Tans was town (it was likely a misunderstanding of the mods, but still it's impossible to argue with a player who thinks he has mod confirmation of something and won't reconsider). He might have allowed a Vezok lynch before a Kast lynch, but he wasn't going to allow a Tans lynch.

I could probably ignore Vezok, and potentially get a Vezok lynch first...but then I'd get lynched immediately after.

@Muffin-
I was pretty sure you would use your role on me. There was no way I was going to do the kill, and we wanted to use your strong assumption that mafia couldn't kill AND act on the same night. If we let you live and killed BB instead, then would you have supported a Vezok/KJ lynch afterward (since essentially I would be *cleared*)?

@Hiplop-
There was really nothing for you to do after KJ claimed "factional investigation results" on you. Asking KJ to shut up just made it sound like he was right. Not asking him to shut up

also

would give truth to his claims. It was kinda lose-lose for you. Also getting active suddenly would have been a change to your behavior (similar to Ludi and Vezok...).

What I don't get was why you claimed a "town" on Toast. It's not a scum claim per se...but it did nothing to save you.

Mafia did a great job crippling the Anti-Cult roles in their NKs / mis-lynches. Seriously ...

Mafia did a good job crippling the Cult roles too. Crippling anti-cult early game = town cred when we kill cult in later game without just following anti-cult roles and letting them gain the cred. I get it if you're unhappy you got robbed of being there to help town, but the implication that mafia was somehow doing the wrong thing at that point in the game just doesn't hold up.

Kast · Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:24 pm

@BB-
Oh yeah, also it was more a "we don't want BB dead and people thinking, BB suspected Kast so Kast killed him to avoid getting caught", than a "we want BB to investigate Kast". If you got a guilty on Hiplop, I think we could have done a fair job spinning out a redirection possibility (potentially even Vezok as redirector GF).

Kast · Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:42 am

Uh, Kast. Blackberry was the MAFIA COP. That meant he found out if players were a member of the mafia.

He had no ability to say if a player was recruited.

This might have been the source of the problem. Mods didn't realize what BB was asking and BB didn't realize what mods were answering. I'm not referring to anything to do with BB's INVESTIGATION. I'm referring to his QUESTION about how the MAFIA VANILLIZER ability works. He was told the vanillizer is a miscellaneous ability and that it would not stop a jailkeep ability.

Whichever mod answered BB probably thought this was good enough for a

HYPOTHETICAL

answer, but in actuality it was understood as

CONFIRMING

that the vanillizer did not roleblock a jailkeeper ability. BB's question was essentially, "Mods, is it possible that Tans is a member of the cult?" and he was essentially answered, "yes" instead of "you don't know that" or "it depends how the mafia ability is worded". Without seeing the exact question and answer, I dunno if it was entirely BB's misunderstanding or what; but even in a general sense, it doesn't seem right for mods to answer questions about an unflipped mafia ability to townies, especially when it's a question that mods didn't want to directly answer for the mafia.

(Busdriver? Oh come on, how often do two people really know they've been busdriven? Almost never. You could fakeclaim busdriver for a year).

This is a horrible fake claim without a redirection power attached. It's auto-suicide to claim bus driver. You

NEED

to lie about

TWO

people's night actions repeatedly. You also need to justify why you didn't save the dead town PRs, etc. etc. It's a claim that's designed to be exposed as fake. Swapping the BG claim with any one of the mafia claims would have improved the fake claims immensely.

Though to be clear, I don't think that complete fake claims are

that

important to be given to mafia (they're more important in a no-vanilla game). We can make up and BS claims if needed.

The stock 'double day' game is 13:3, all Vanilla.

This doesn't sound right. 9:3 all vanilla is fairly balanced. Adding in double day helps town much more than mafia.

5-6 mafia is a good number for a game this size with single mafia and single 3rd party group. With the third party group having no dedicated kill, it pushes towards a 6 mafia game. For a game this size, having two 3-4 man mafias with a solo 3rd party (lyncher/SK/survivor/misc.) is pretty normal and balanced. Cutting out the third party, converting one of those mafia teams to a cult, and making it double day leaves the remaining scum team underpowered so increasing numbers to 6 is fair.

I don't think anyone is complaining that the mafia team was a bad size...

@Janitor-
-Was the janitor the type that means NOBODY learns the identity of the body or was it the type that still shares some info?
-Would mafia have been told anything about the body?
--If we learned the name and role of the dead player, that would pretty much make the "bad fake claims" arguments moot since we could steal fake claims from dead towns.
--What would have been announced if we janitor killed the Cult Leader?

Kast · Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:50 am

The Book of Oa wrote:tanstalas attempts to steal Andrius's role
(fails)
.

?

Kast · Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:53 am

The Book of Oa wrote:vezokpiraka freezes ToastyToast.

Lol, so Vezok lied to everyone about his N3 target NOT being Toast?

Kast · Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:00 am

None of those things ruined the game, and I still had fun, but it's worth pointing out for future reference.

This

Kast · Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:01 am

And if the town is balanced around a cop, it's a severe blow to the town to lose their cop N1.

It's the same difference. At the end of the day your role chopped one day phase off the game. That's major, but good play can make up for that from town or scum.

I'm not claiming balance was off, but this argument completely misses Toog's point.

Think of it like this: a chess game is balanced if both players start with the same pieces. If you remove the queen (2 shot extra night killer) from one team, it is no longer balanced. If you remove the knight (town cop) from one team, it would ALSO be unbalanced. However, the degree of imbalance is much less in the second case.

Kast · Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:24 am

[quote=Magua]You can't expect the game to be balanced pre-game for the possibility that Toog (or any player) plays badly and is lynched or makes poor use of his abilities. That's an absurd stance to take.[/quote]Oh, most assuredly so. You misunderstand. GreyICE already stated that the pregame setup balance assumed Toog would get one shot off and would have a 50% chance of getting the other one off. Since the *mods* assumed this to be the case in order for the game to be balanced, Toog's argument is valid; if the mods idea of pregame *balance* is a role that grants the mafia one bonus kill and a 50% chance of a second bonus kill, then they should put in a role that does exactly that.

However, like you and others have pointed out, it wasn't actually necessary for game balance reasons.