TV Mafia Game Over - Scum Win

[Banshee]

A few notes on the initial readthrough:

What's with all the name claims and roleclaims on day one? SRSLY?

Rodion's post 1007: Go back and read this. Really read it. I have rarely seen a more conciliatory piece of work in a game of Mafia. I especially like this little gem:

Zinger2099 - started posting without contributing, switched to claiming 3rd-party JK and then town JK (I took his doc claim as a joke). Really scummy to me, but I'm weary of other people exaggerating his scuminess (Junpei/Meran), which leads me to consider the possibility that it was, after all, just a poor gambit (and that the people who exaggerated deserve a deeper look).

He agrees with the crowd that Zinger is "really scummy" but also casts a wide IGMEOY at everyone who agrees with him. That's a neat trick, if you can pull it off.

We can argue all day if you want Silver but thats only helpful for scum wich I suspect is what you want.

I disagree with this completely. In my opinion arguing always gives more information to town, especially after some flips have occurred and people go back over the arguments with knowledge of the alignments of some of the parties involved.

I am not spamming this thread I am scumhunting. I know I have a lot of posts that might not be evident of that directly but it is clear that I am helping town move forward.

To me it looks more like obstructing town by monopolising the conversation with huge Walls o Text (tm), but I could be wrong.

Scum getting reads is not fine. The more in the dark we leave scum, the better we are in the long run. Letting scum take in the dark shots weakens them far more than town taking in the dark shots is weakened. Scum kills tend to have multiple levels of reasoning attached to them, so are difficult to correctly pin down reasoning of, especially in the early stages of a large game.

I don't know what this means, honestly. But I think I agree with Junpei, which is unfortunate and disconcerting since I'm not buying his PR claim and I think he's scum.

I'm not placing a vote yet, since I think I need one more reread/skim and I want to look at a couple of ISOs before I present a case, but I wanted to say hello and get a few thoughts down in the meantime.

Oh, and I think Zinger is probably an anti-town third party. There isn't a good reason for that claim otherwise. Second choice would be scum, and I don't see any way he would be town with that play.

Back to reading this over again.

[Banshee]

The only objection I have to lynching Zinger is that I don't think it's going to derive a lot of information for town. To me, the first lynch is usually an information lynch that has the potential to catch scum but is not all that likely to do so. The reactions surrounding Zinger's bizarre and unhelpful play are pretty uniform across the board. Some argue that Zinger is town, some argue that he's scum or unpleasant third party, but everyone generally reacted as if Zinger showed up drunk to the dance recital and started throwing up in front of the stage. And I think that's a fair reaction. It just doesn't give town as much information and highlights the anti-town nature of Zinger's play. That said, I still want to lynch him.

I'm not in favour of the Silverbullet lynch. I'd much rather lynch:

• Rodion - Just scummy all the way through.
  Meransiel - I hate this no posting garbage and I think you softclaimed scum
  Leonshade - Early exchanges seemed forced and possible distancing
  Junpei - Vifam was scummy and replaced out under pressure. Junpei claimed Tracker and then started burying the argument under walls of text like a cat trying to hide the evidence in the litter box.
  

I'm willing to vote Zinger and completely unwilling to vote:

• Pappums Leather Jacket - Meta and posting says town
  Killerjester - Outstanding analysis imo, again, town to me
  Vollkan - I don't have a clear read yet but if he's town he's going to help town
  

@mod: Can we have an official vote count, please?

[Banshee]

I meant this.
This is just filled with WIFOM. Then it's followed by content. But this post still exists, and shouldn't be overlooked.

Noted.

Meran has just jumped up on my scumlist for responding to that post with nothing at all.

You have made posts that imply you'll eventually post something until you finally make a post saying to never expect anything from you. And then you say that you're too lazy and it 'isn't' going to hurt me that much' to have you gone all day? This seems like a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

It is a scum tactic to get a free ride day 1.

[Banshee]

I think he may have misread 615 in response to 563...

If this refers to me, 1) I'm female, 2) No.

[Banshee]

Secondly what is "scummy" and where did meransiel allegedly "softclaimed scum"?

You're not really asking me what "scummy" is, are you?
I didn't make cases on my suspicions because at some point we have to end this very long day. But I had to get them out there now in case I don't get another chance. If I'm still here tomorrow, I'll make my cases then.

I already answered the second part.

@Vollkan: How is that particular variety of sarcasm helpful to town? Is it your experience that scum never use sarcasm in this way?

I'm an alt from this site.

[Banshee]

1) The test for whether or not something scummy is whether or not it would be unreasonable for a townie to do it - not whether it actually HELPS town or not. (use of proper punctuation doesn't help town, but you'd hardly argue that that is a scumtell)

Do you believe it reasonable for a townie to refuse to post during Day 1 and, when called on it as a likely scum strategy, to agree in the particular way Meransiel did?

The reason this situation is full of WIFOM imo is that I can't see scum making that statement either. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would behave as Meransiel did and then make that statement.

This isn't the equivalent of using good punctuation; the analogy is bad. This is the equivalent of pouring gasoline on oneself and standing in the middle of a crowd asking if anyone has a light. It IS unreasonable for a townie to do it; it's also unreasonable that scum would do it, hence the WIFOM.

[Banshee]

I think the comment (sarcasm or not) is a direct response to being called on the lurking, so I don't think you can separate the two issues neatly. The comment REFERS to the lurking.

I'm not sure how you're using harmful. Nothing that happens on this site is harmful in the real world, I suppose. But the use of language, including sarcasm, is the basis for lynching people in this game. So I still think my analogy is closer than yours.

[Banshee]

VOTE: Zinger

That's L-1.

[Banshee]

I think he is scum or hostile third party. I think his play has been so poor that it has eliminated any possibility of a true information lynch. I think the day needs to end soon since it's already over fifty pages.

I think I said most of this before in previous posts.

[Banshee]

Cop.
Out.

I'm currently working on my case on Rodion (I literally have nothing better to do at the moment) so if you want that, I'll post it when it's done. I don't see anyone rushing in to hammer so I may as well.

I just want the day to end, honestly. It is hard enough getting replacements now, and it's only going to get worse. In my opinion long days cause apathy that benefits scum and hurts town.

What makes you think these people are town, ThAdmiral? What has semi or fully confirmed them in your eyes?

[Banshee]

As promised, my case on Rodion. Still voting Zinger, not moving my vote today.

I need to reveal a portion of meta that I think clears someone else before explaining a part of why I think Rodion is scum. It's a specific paradigm I've seen before, with TheFonz (one part of Pappums Leather Jacket) defending a newb against an attack (My God, he's only a BABY!) and voting the person he perceives as persecuting the newbie on the thought that it's scummy to do that. In the case I saw, TheFonz was town, the person he attacked was town, and the newbie was, in fact, scum. This led me to look at Rodion much more carefully because I don't absolutely agree with TheFonz about not pressuring newbies, but I do think it's a towntell for him. So I semi-confirmed TheFonz as town and put an IGMEOY on Rodion for the reread.

The Magna of Illusion dispute was pretty inconclusive for me, though I did note that MoI looked like town and Rodion came off null. I can't usually tell when it's town-town or town-scum (though I'm pretty good at spotting the distancing scum-scum attack-retreat dance) so I just noted it. Rodion didn't seem to have good reasons but they didn't seem scum-beneficial either.

Then we hit this and the first thing that I can point to that was directly problematic after I started watching him.

Well, I am a mislynch. Period. Granted, scum would claim to be town as well, but I'm not appealing to emotion as much as stating a fact, fact being "I am town".

Apparently, he's town. And in the same post there's this self-serving parroting of TheFonz's argument that you shouldn't pressure newbs, except they might be scum, but then they might blow up and you'll get bits of newb all over you. Rodion expressly emphasises his own newbness.

A lot of my problems with Rodion center around claims and overreactions to wagons; any one of these things would not be a big deal by themselves, but taken together look like a pattern of behaviour. He wants a fullclaim during the Vezok RVS wagon, he wants to vote for Vifam but is afraid to hammer before a claim, he reacts to ZeLink and Zinger's claims oddly and starts asking for as many details as possible on those claims, and he asks about Mafia busdrivers, lynchers, and other weird and wonderful roles in a way that I very much didn't like.

He defends Zinger for a while, and this actually made me reevaluate Rodion because his logic made sense to me and I was agreeing with a lot of his points. Then he started doing analysis of players, and that's when I lost all faith in his townness.

Rodion is conciliatory (my personal favourite scumtell) pretty much without exception. He dismisses a number of disputes as misunderstandings, notably here and here and helpfully informs others of how they can avoid such misunderstandings in future here, which is a pretty clear contrast to his I'm-just-a-newb excuses early on.

And these individual analyses are exactly characteristic of what I think scum would do, not offending anyone particularly and not offering much in the way of insight.

here and here

He gives ZeL1nK scum points for concealing his hydra. Yes, he does. The least useful and accurate scumtell ever.

Rodion is too interested in outing power roles as a general rule, too conciliatory in his analysis of the players and overall the scummiest player in my view. Counterarguments, angry flames and logical rebuttals are always welcome.

[Banshee]

Look at it this way. The first day has dragged on for fifty+ pages. I personally think we would derive more information from a different lynch and I have pointed out who I wanted to lynch. In a perfect world, I would be pushing Rodion's lynch for the reasons I've already stated. I'd be asking him to explain himself. I'd be taking up some pages to give more information to town.

I can't do that because FIFTY pages is far too much. I know this for sure. I just read it over TWICE. I'm still sure I missed things; how much worse would it be for the next replacement when Day One goes to seventy, eighty, one hundred pages long?

And, since nearly everyone is on Zinger's wagon, how is anything I say going to affect them getting a free pass? I don't need a free pass. I'm not asking for one. I don't gain anything by giving one to everyone else on the wagon either. I stand by my comment from earlier: IMO Zinger's play justifies the reception it got and continues to get.

What kind of vote analysis do you think is possible on Zinger's wagon, Killerjester? In what way is my opinion hampering that kind of VCA? (Just curious, I'm not seeing it personally. It's only one person's opinion.)

@PLJ: Just a sec, I'll get you a link.

[Banshee]

@PLJ:Here you go.

[Banshee]

@Junpei:

In fairness, I don't actually mind the walls of text in and of themselves. I'm guilty of the same thing with extensive PBPAs in some cases. I do note, however, that you have the highest post count of anyone in the game, and you're a replacement.

My objection was that there was a lot of discussion immediately prior to your entry into the game. You entered at post 306, said hi, claimed. From post 306 to post 357, you were responsible for twenty of the fifty-one posts, racking up approximately forty percent of all posts during that period. That seems excessive; I can understand it because you replaced in under pressure. But it did contribute to making the game longer without actually adding much to its clarity, imo. I do note that you have toned this down.

What would you consider a quickhammer at this point, anyway? That comment made me laugh

[Banshee]

Not much time to answer right now, but:

Firstly, your assertion that he was not under pressure is false. He had four votes, was tied for the lead, and two of those votes had accrued pretty quickly when he first hinted he might not be town.

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

Speaking of which:

@ZeL1nK

: Why did you announce you were going to vig Zinger in the first place? I don't think you've ever answered this.

[Banshee]

Caught these on a reread after ThAdmiral's response.

Part of saying that all third party claims should be lynched is that it stops ponies from eventually faking third party roles because they think it's clever or something along those lines. If you are claiming he is one of those ponies that need to constantly be given a pass because of his inability to do anything correctly, thats not going to fly either. I would be willing to lynch ponies like that regardless of alignment every time if it eventually teaches them to not be complete Derpy Ponies, or he leaves the site like he appears to be threatening for and I hope he does.

No. A world of no to this comment. Also, it's very hard to take you seriously with the pony stuff.

The thing though is we get to where we are now, where everypony just decides to give him a pass because no scum would make this move.

That's not at all where we are now. Zinger is L-1 or L-2 depending on recent vote shifts. Do you really perceive that Zinger is getting a free pass?

@Pappum:

Do you think that the combination of a threatened vig and a threatened lynch could have caused Zinger to melt down in the way he apparently did?

[Banshee]

Also he had the ZeL1nK threat hanging over his head from very early on in the game, which apparently caused some pressure on its own.

You do understand that this is a pretty absurd statement since if Zinger is a Jailkeeper he could just as easily Jail Zel1nk to ‘remove’ said threat and pressure, right?

That's a pretty big "if", though. Imo Zinger is hostile/neutral third party more likely than scum based on his play here. I don't understand the point nor the possible win condition of a nonaligned Jailkeeper (please, point out if I'm wrong here) so I think he's lying about his role entirely.

Also, Zinger informed us what he would do if the positions were reversed already, in this post.

[Banshee]

That's a pretty big "if", though. Imo Zinger is hostile/neutral third party more likely than scum based on his play here. I don't understand the point nor the possible win condition of a nonaligned Jailkeeper (please, point out if I'm wrong here) so I think he's lying about his role entirely.

Ok, so you think he's scum who made a completely fake Jailkeeper claim (ignoring the alignment element for the moment). What was his motive? And why make the claim when he did as scum?

The point of 3rd parties with alternate win conditions is to throw in some chaos into the balance of the set-up.

I understand the general point of third parties. Basically, my problem with Zinger is in two parts: 1) determining his alignment and 2) determining his truthfulness about his role within that alignment framework. I looked at it like this (some of this is from my notes, so please excuse the odd formatting):

If Zinger is scum, then he could be a scum Jailkeeper and target ZeL1nK-town to protect himself or, alternatively, be running a gambit with ZeL1nK-scum to semi-confirm power roles??? (looking for any possible motive)... but I would think that would require planning in advance, and I don't think sane players would go along with this gambit. If Zinger is scum but not a Jailkeeper (Roleblocker, etc) then he can't protect himself so it really makes no sense.

If Zinger is third party looking for his target then his weird name claims and comments that imo drew ZeL1nK's attention in the first place make way more sense. How to convince the wrong target not to waste time on you? Jailkeeper is a great choice. I don't believe the role though. Thinking lyncher.

If Zinger is town then why lie? Why the weird fishery trip with the name claim and the flavour claim and the series of soft/full/revised claims that he's making? Why would Town Jailkeeper act like this ever?

Okay. This is rough and I don't really have a lot of time to polish it up but I'm just going to let you have it, rough notes and all. If you need clarification on why I was thinking something please ask, and if you see huge errors/logical mistakes PLEASE point them out. But this is a snapshot of what I was thinking and why I was thinking it regarding Zinger and the claim issue.

[Banshee]

I haven't played in a while, so I'm going to ask dumb questions now.

Is it normal to have two neighbourisers in one game? Is it normally the case that one would be scum and one would be town?

I've only played games with masons and lovers (including unconfirmed versions of both); the neighbourhood thing is new to me.

[Banshee]

Responding to Rodion from before the lynch.

2 - You misunderstood the aforementioned "newbie defense". It wasn't really a defense on the grounds that "I don't know how to play mafia and thus am prone to crack under pressure even if I am town", it was actually a warning to MoI and Vifam that their attacks on me could look scummy because they were grasping at straws against someone that had a join date that was below 1 week, so it sounded like an easy lynch. It didn't really matter whether I was/am a newbie or whether I'm the greatest mafia player in the world: what mattered was the perception of my experience/skills by those that decided to accuse me with so little and they didn't have a lot to base their perception from other than "he joined the site less than a week ago". Leather Jacket's ensuing attack/vote on MoI only confirmed the risk of attacking the "newbie", meaning my warning was spot on.

Why would you warn people not to do things that might be perceived as scummy? What if they ARE scum? Why would you be so certain that they are not?

3 - Do not worry, you will not see me using the newbie defense in the way I described it in "2" (I'm too proud to imply that I suck and thus should be treated differently). The problem is that I don't yet know the

mores

of this site and that could lead to people reading "scumtells" where there shouldn't be.

Everyone has their own way of finding scum and will detect different scumtells, so this shouldn't be your concern if you're town. Town doesn't have to worry about giving off scumtells.

5 - Mind explaining how I reacted oddly to both Zinger and Zelink's claims?

3 - How common are mafia busdrivers here? Zelink said he'd vig Zinger, should we be worried that a mafia busdriver redirects the kill into someone else? I'm still confused as to whether Zelink made a joke when he claimed vig or not and his "sarcasm" was only present when he replied to Oversoul's weird post (Oversoul asked the claimed vig to protect someone - I think it was simply a poor phrasing and he actually asked the doc to protect the vig - or the person the vig promised to kill). Also, if the vig claim is serious, Zelink, would you also name claim so we test the theory on the randomness of roles (a theory you mentioned yourself in #122)?

Zinger claimed 3rd-party, I don't see the harm in wanting to know more about his claim: it's not like we're outing a town PR. I'm also curious about the logic behind people claiming Zinger "townslipped".

There you go.

6 - Please show where I asked for as many details as possible on those claims.

See above.

9 - Furthermore, I don't see how being new (either "new to mafia" or "new to this site") makes me unable to correct the misunderstandings I see. It just takes reading comprehension, not leet mafia experience. Do you disagree?

No, I agree, being able to correct misunderstandings has nothing to do with experience anywhere. I think that CHOOSING to correct those misunderstandings and trying to smooth things over is characteristic of someone who is either new to Mafia or new to this site. Why would you dismiss things as misunderstandings rather than allowing whatever discussion comes from those things to continue? It looks rather like scum directing the play of their buddies, and that's why I mentioned it.

10 - Hydra - yes, I did. I don't see a pro-town reason to make yourself "unmetable" after you already claimed. If you've got nothing to hide, you should be willing to be read as an open book.

There are plenty of reasons for people to conceal their identities, some of which have nothing to do with this particular game. It's not revealing of the role of the concealed hydra, so it's not a scumtell. It's something that irritates you. There's a difference. Additionally, you claim not to know anyone here anyway, so I don't see how it could affect your play significantly unless you plan to meta each and every one of the players in this game.

@ThAdmiral

: Why are you so convinced that Rodion is town? You've defended him at least twice; I'm curious to know why.

[Banshee]

@Junpei:

I have a few questions.

Then I thought "who would scum think I'd track?". Well, I expressed distaste at one point or another of Meran, Andrew, ZeL1nK, and a few others less so throughout the day(not including Zinger). So I wanted to steer clear of scum correctly guessing my target and somehow screwing with me whether it be from intentionally not using their action to redirecting it.

Were you suspicious of Vezok prior to your reread? Did you do a reread on most or all of the players in the game in isolation?

Did you think Vezok was the most likely to be scum?

Do you have any special reason to think that the power to redirect is in the game?

Why did you need to include Zinger in the comment in the way you did? Obviously no one expected you to track Zinger. Why mention him specifically in that way?

@MoI:

I'm doing a reread on Silver and I'll do one on Pappums while I'm at it, but for now I still really think he's town.

[Banshee]

@silver

I'm still in the midst of an ISO reread, but I have a quick question for you. Can you give me a list of your top three scum reads, in no particular order?

Thanks.

Also, where is ZeL1nK? He hasn't posted today, has he?

[Banshee]

I'm assuming you concede you were wrong regarding "1", "4" and "7"? You still didn't explain what you specifically disliked in the way I asked those questions (regarding "7").

Don't assume. I'm not going to respond to every one of your points, because 1) you are not the only scum in the game and 2) I have only so much time to respond.

2 - You make a good point here. Considering I did not have town reads on them, perhaps I should have allowed them to dig themselves into holes.

Is it your standard practice in general to help out people you don't have town reads on by telling them how not to act scummy? Is this your general behaviour?

5 - By quoting me, you showed how I reacted. What you didn't do was show what was "odd" in my reaction. I'm still waiting on that.

This reads as if you're requesting that I explain the scumtell I detected in your posts. I'm not going to tell you that. Ask me after the game.

Zelink: I said I didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not. If truthful, I asked him to tell his name so we got more info regarding roles fitting flavour or being random. Is that your definition of "asking as many details as possible"?

Short of quoting or paraphrasing the role PM, how many more details do you think he could have provided that you did NOT ask for?

9 - Because I don't think a discussion that is originated from a misunderstanding will be fruitful. If both parties can't understand each other, they will both bash straw men and think they are correct. Waste of energy/time. If you have a theoretical point that recommends you not to clear misunderstandings while playing town I'd like to read it.

This is full of fail. If you help everyone out by saying, "It was all just a big misunderstanding!" then you're interfering in fruitful discussion that could lead to slips, scumtells and discovery. Why would you want to do that? Why would you assume you knew what either party meant exactly, anyway?

You also mentioned there are plenty of reasons for someone to conceal their identities. I'm new to the hydra concept. I'll appreciate if you expand on that.

The hydra concept is new to me as well but apart from some technical issues it doesn't bother me. As for hiding one's identity, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if people are concealing their identity for out of game reasons (as someone in an ongoing hydra may well do) that it's really none of your business, just as if someone is playing as an alt for their own reasons, that's not your business either.

In other news, I finished my reread of Silver and I'll be working on writing it up when I get more time.

[Banshee]

A viable reason for someone to hide their identity is if they are being stalked or otherwise harassed online. And that, as I said previously, wouldn't be any of your business, would it?

I don't think I've played enough games as town to have a "general behaviour" (you can check my list of games if you ISO me).

As this once again looks like playing the newbie card to me, I'm going to refrain from comment on it directly. You have said you're very concerned about not giving off scumtells, but to me it does not seem that you are very aware of what they are.

I'm currently conflicted as to whether this makes you naive town or extremely clever scum.

[Banshee]

VOTE: Andrew

This.

[Banshee]

I did my reread. I don't see a point in rehashing what everyone already knows, so I did some vote analysis to figure out something I was curious about.

While I think that Silver couldn't know he wouldn't be lynched when he offered himself in preference to a Zinger lynch, I went back and checked the vote counts and did some cross checking on what was said when.

Vote Count 12 (Post 1056)
Zinger 10 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, 3isFrench, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Pinky,(L-4)
Silverdrummer 6 - Slate, Oversoul, Nero, Mera, Cherve,MOI,

Silverdrummer announces he'd rather die than let us lynch Zinger. (Post 1060) Says he's "fine with my lynch but let me get my last word before a hammer when it gets to that point." (Post 1179) Also, comments he enjoys being a martyr sometimes. (Post 1184)

Vote Count 13 (Post 1214)
Silver: 10 - rainbow, Oversoul, Nero, Mera, Cherve,MOI,THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin,Pinky (L-4)
Zinger 9 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan

Silverdrummer makes an effort to delay his lynch until after the 11th of August or something like that, asks not to be lynched "right the ef now." (I think I've interpreted this correctly.) (post 1264)

Notes that Zinger is at L-2 but does not renew his martyr bid. (Post 1275)

Vote Count 14 (Post 1308)
Zinger 12 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Slate,Cherve,Pinky (L-2)
Silver 8 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew (L-6)

Nothing from Silverdrummer/Silverbullet during this period. (I don't know if he was V/LA or not, so I'm not counting this as a tell of any kind.)

Vote Count 15 (Post 1350)
Zinger 13 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Slate,Cherve,Pinky, Banshee (L-1)
Silver 8 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, THAdmiral, Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew

Silverdrummer does a "catch-up post" in which he makes no mention of Zinger or his martyr play. (Post 1377)

Vote Count 16 (Post 1393)
Zinger 13 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Rainbow,Cherve,Pinky, Banshee (L-1)
Silver 7 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera, MOI, , Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew

Shotty hammers in 1426.

Vote Count 17 (Post 1465)
Zinger 14 - Vezo,Leonshade, Junpei, Hipaddict, Izak, Pappum,, KillerJester, DavidX, Vollkan,Rainbow,Cherve,Pinky, Banshee, Shotty. (Lynch)
Silver 6 - Oversoul, Nero, Mera , Zinger, CHKBallin, Andrew

My own impression of this is that Silver made the offer and, when people began to take him up on it, then had buyer's remorse for it and stopped talking about it.

Any other observations or comments are welcome.

[Banshee]

@MoI: If Andrew is scum, and he is lynched today, does the neighbourhood he initiated disappear? Is there any added value to having a neighbourhood other than the ability to daytalk and share observations about the game in a private setting?

Sorry to ask dumb questions, but I know that in the unconfirmed Mason setups I've played there were actually major drawbacks to discussing with people if they did turn out to be scummy. I'm sure the scum felt the same way about talking to me.

What I'm asking, I guess, is this: Is there any drawback to lynching Andrew today that might not be immediately obvious?

[Banshee]

-Banshee
In regards to your wall vote post
Same as I stated before.

Where is the iso you did of me or was the vca all that it was?

The ISO I did on you led to the chronological description of how the votes fell, who cast them and what your reaction was throughout. Your ISO is very scummy imo and most of what I identified had already been pointed out; I did feel like posting it wouldn't really give any new information to anyone. To me, your sacrifice play was the sole reason to consider you as town based on your ISO. The fact that you've done that before as town, ironically, makes me believe it more likely to be a scum gambit here since you immediately referred to your meta as proof of your towniness. This is especially likely imo given the exact chronology I lined out and the apparent lessening of your enthusiasm for being lynched as the prospect became more concrete and possible. So I posted what I thought was original and informative and refrained from repeating the same comments that everyone else had already made and that were probably painfully obvious by this point in the game.

tl;dr: You're very scummy. I think Andrew is scummier though. Hence my vote.

[Banshee]

EBWOP
-Banshee
Also post the iso of me anyway, throw it in a spoiler. It's easier to have the whole thing thrown in a post if it's a culmination of what you agree with so far in regards to me or what not.

I don't know what you mean by this, but I didn't keep the ISO notepad file since I then turned it into the chronological account of your behaviour surrounding your martyr play. Do you have something you especially want addressed regarding your posts that hasn't been addressed sufficiently so far in your opinion?

As for the meta, you commented that you liked to play martyr or something to that effect (it's late and I'm tired, so I may not have the precise quote correct) and that's what I'm referring to. I have no idea what you're talking about with Shotty and I don't rely on meta to scumhunt because it really isn't a reliable method as far as I can see. If I remember correctly, it was essentially a comment that the tactic had worked for you as town in the past. That doesn't mean you're town now, though, even though it seemed you were trying to imply that without outright saying it.

Do you know why people are voting Andrew right now? Have you read his recent exchange with MoI? I don't understand your reaction to his wagon.

[Banshee]

firstly, banshee what do you mean 'this'

It was a hyperlink to the post that caused me to vote for you. I thought that was evident.

What is the value of the "integrity" of the discussion between unconfirmed neighbours, in your view? Also, in your opinion what is the benefit of daytalk between unconfirmed individuals?

[Banshee]

@MOD:

Can we get a prod on ZeL1nK please? He hasn't posted today, and he called me scummy right before he left and now I don't know if he's going to take me to Prom or not.

Thanks!

[Banshee]

I'm not.

OMGUS.

In seriousness, I have two questions for ZeL1nK.

Did you shoot Vollkan?

What are your feelings on lynching Andrew?

[Banshee]

Right now, it isn't necessary that Zel1nK claims, it helps scum more than us anyway.

I endorse the above statement.

[Banshee]

@hip: Yes.

@Rainbowdash:

PeregrineV is on my short list of probable scum, which includes in inexact and ever shifting order:

• Andrew
  Rodion
  Castle Bravo
  Silver
  Rainbowdash
  PeregrineV
  Meransiel
  Shotty
  Hiplop

This list is not fixed and people have earned their way off it (or onto it); Junpei is now more likely town than scum imo, for example.

Oversoul is in this game? SRSLY? No read. Scummy by way of lurking, I guess.

I think Chkballin is town. However, I have a list of about six people I think are certainly town and whom I trust more as a result. Not listing them here. Chkballin is not on that list.

[Banshee]

I had no opinion of Pine because, well, there really was nothing to work with at all. Silver's case on Pine and his relentless pushing of a policy lynch without ever giving his reasons (being useless is not a reason, or we'd never be done policy lynching imo) are actually part of the reason I think Silver is likely scum. But I was most suspicious of Rodion all day yesterday and stated my case (which is very similar to Castle Bravo's) in depth at that time. ThAdmiral was insistent that Rodion was town, insistent enough to shake my town read on ThAd at one point and lead me to question ThAd about it. I don't think I got an answer and I STILL don't think Rodion is town.

Still I was suspicious of Castle Bravo when he came in and agreed with me so completely. I've been burned by this before and I tend to be wary when I've made a case and someone comes in and sees it just the way I did. The last couple of posts by Castle Bravo, however, indicate that he read the game independently and that this is his own case, not mine parroted, so I'm taking him off my suspicions list for now. I'm also going to add that Rodion alternates between the I'm-a-newbie-what's-this-mean and the I-am-NOT-emphasizing-my-newbness-how-dare-you!?! settings pretty much at will. As I pointed out before, he warned people against picking on him because it might look scummy and, when questioned about whether that was his general behaviour fell back on the I-don't-have-a-general-behaviour-I'm-a-newb defense once more.

So Castle Bravo is off my scum radar for now.

@rainbowdash:

As I understand it, I'm one of your top three scum suspicions but I don't appear on your "needs to die" list. Why not?

[Banshee]

@Pappums:

What is it that you, ThAd and others are seeing in Rodion's play that's screaming town to you? Because I'm really not seeing it and I would be grateful to have it pointed out. To me he's failing to take any strong positions anywhere, he's been conciliatory and he's seesawed between pointing out directly and indirectly that he's a newb but he doesn't expect to be treated differently but don't forget he's a newb...

What's town in that?

@Rodion:
If you have played Mafia elsewhere (and I don't know where you've played, sorry, I don't know these sites) then was it your general behaviour THERE to counsel other players on how not to appear scummy when you did not know their alignment? Or are you arguing again that you're too new to have a general behaviour anywhere? I thought my question was relatively simple and straightforward (Yes, Banshee, I do advise others on how not to act scummy in general or, No, Banshee, this is something I just did in this game) but instead it was used as another opportunity to say, hey, look, I'm a newbie! Someone rush to my defense!

I'm just puzzled as to why it keeps working every single time.

[Banshee]

Okay, Rainbow convinced me to take the time to go through and read Oversoul. Not that it took very long, actually.

I don't see anything too bad in the first three posts, but the fourth post is an apology for not posting. I tend to see this as a scumtell; not the flaking, so much, but the apologising for it. So that's minus points almost immediately.

This is terrible and I don't know how I missed it before. It's exactly the same sort of garbage that first made me think Rodion was scum, actually, full of neutral reads and contradictory statements (Meransiel is null but the interaction between Meransiel and Junpei looks like Town vs Town, for one example). It's pretty much the hallmark of scum to want to keep all their options open by not giving firm reads on anyone. I understand why people wouldn't want to give their town reads but there's no good reason not to point out the scums. Additionally, he's voting for Silver without actually giving reasons other than "he seems scummy."

And... that's all, folks! Everything else from Oversoul is basically Ooops-I-didn't-read-this or Lemme-catch-up or I-may-need-replacing, nothing of substance. At least Rodion is willing to engage and argue and put his logic on the line for examination.

Yeah, I have to say Oversoul is likely scum. If he's replacing out, then I guess it's unlikely he'll answer, provide content or change my mind on this. I still prefer Andrew as a lynch because 1) if I'm wrong and he's town I don't feel that neighbouriser is a great loss and that role is already outed and 2) I think the post I referred to when I voted him is SO AWFUL that I'm sure he's scum because of it to about 90% certainty. More so than Rodion, more so than anyone else in the game. To put that in perspective, I'm only about 55% on Silver as scum (I can't get past that stupid martyr thing and it's just SO full of WIFOM for me that I can't commit to voting for him right now despite other scummy posts he's made).

[Banshee]

EBWOP: Okay, I don't know why I thought Oversoul was being replaced. He's just on vacation. Anyway, the rest of the post still stands, just ignore my stupidity please.

[Banshee]

@Rainbow:

Since your last post indicates you think Rodion is most likely town, can you explain the difference between Oversoul's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal and Rodion's terribad PBPA that was horribly noncommittal, and why you're treating them in opposite ways when they're strikingly similar?

[Banshee]

All right, let me clarify, since it's obviously not clear now.

Yes, you were correct that your claim of Townie Newb precedes Pappum's impassioned defense of you as townie newb. But MY comment dealt with the repeated comments you made after that that referenced your newb status to the site, even after you commented that you were too proud to use the newbie defense. After you made that statement you've continued to use your newbie status to explain your behaviour, as witnessed by your most recent trip to that particular well on the "general behaviour" question. So your parroting in fact followed his statement, even though you made the newbie claim and warned others not to press the newbie a few posts before Pappums echoed you. This is also complicated by the fact that, as I said earlier, I've seen one part of the Pappums hydra make this exact argument in the past when the hydra member was town and the newbie defense was used on behalf of scum well before this game ever started. I'm willing to concede that my opinion was coloured by that past experience, but it was not created by it.

Your argument is that you didn't parrot Pappums, and you're right on that. But you went back to that defense and seemed to follow his arguments even after you said you wouldn't do so out of pride. I don't think you get to have it both ways on that, but I don't suppose I think it's scummy, especially since you're now completely relying on the "newbie defense."

I'm willing to accept that you're a newbie and that you're new not only to this site, but also to the entire game of Mafia. That excuses you on almost all the points I've made against you, but it does not excuse your horrible PBPA that refused to take any firm positions on anyone and left all your options open.

Care to take another stab at it now that you know exactly what I thought the worst scumtell you committed was?

[Banshee]

I did miss your answer, and I apologise.

This game has been filled with people saying "_________ is town! 100% town. Guaranteed town!" in response to the cases made by others and with no explanations or responses when questioned on that. By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS. And, as a result, you're getting people who are accusing other people of being scum based on their insistent and unexplained identification of various people as town without good justification and without actually addressing the case against those people.

tl;dr: People who insist that others are town without giving reasons look like scum trying for town-cred. I don't understand why Rodion is getting a full free pass while others are being nailed up for what I think is the same behaviour.

[Banshee]

1) Stop acting like you're so much more intelligent and aware than us and that you would have been able to provide concrete posts that had shown Zinger was town.

2) You replaced in AFTER zinger flipped, that's why it's obvious to you.

I don't think this is directed at me. I voted for Zinger's lynch and put him at L-1, which led directly to his hammer and lynch. I'm not sure who it's directed toward, though.

@meransiel

Apart from Andrew's recruitment of MoI, what's your current read on him?

[Banshee]

@Meransiel:

Do you think it very likely that there are two town neighbourisers in this game? Both chose MoI as their first recruit, so your argument only holds up if you think both neighbourisers must be town. That said, I don't know how common having two town neighbourisers would be.

@MagnaOfIllusion:

Based on the private discussion, are you certain enough that Andrew is scum that you'd be willing to vote him, or is it more a hunch than a firm read?

I don't want to vote Silver. I will to avoid a no-lynch or if he does something scummy enough but right now I don't have any confidence that he's scum. It's not a town read either. I'm just not sure enough.

I'm going to do a read on Izak. My schedule is busy right now but I'll work on that as I can.

[Banshee]

@Banshee: That is exactly what I think, yes. Also, don't bother with izak. Rather, ISO Rodion. Hint hint.

You realise my main case has been on Rodion since I entered the game, right?

[Banshee]

Also third party neighborizer is out of the question right? Sounds like a lame role to have but is something to think about?

I have no idea, sorry.
I have no experience with neighbourisers and limited experience with unconfirmed masons, which I personally found to be useless to and dangerous for town. Others with more experience may have different opinions.

[Banshee]

Double post because I just remembered this:

@Junpei:

Who was this directed toward, please?

[Banshee]

That post was directed at ThAdmiral and to others who were saying definitely that people were town (Zinger, Rodion, Silver and others) without giving any reasons or any justifications. Since scum can be pretty sure of the alignments of others, they can do this for town cred in some cases and I was explaining why I found it suspicious specifically in ThAdmiral's case. Certainty without justification can be indicative of a lot of things, but I'm betting not everyone who has been expressing it has a town alignment and that was what I was saying. Sorry if it was not clear.

I replaced in before Zinger's lynch and was in part responsible for it, so I can't get any town cred out of pushing back against it either before or after the fact. Just so it's clear.

Again no idea on your neighbour questions.

[Banshee]

PBPA of Izak:

Attacks Jilynne for meta reasons he can't mention, that were obviously wrong since that slot flipped town. Votes Vifam but notes he's still "a few votes off lynching" as if this serves to excuse it. Maybe just poor wording.

Responds to ZeL1nK about his Jilynne suspicion. Null.

Asks Vifam "are you trying to get yourself lynched or something?" which is odd because Izak's vote is on Vifam still. Then brings up what I believe is the first mention of a jester in the game. The latter is pretty meaningless, but the first part is odd because it shows dissonance in motivation, i.e. "I'm going to vote for you to be lynched, but why are you trying to get yourself lynched?" Confused motives. Big scumpoints here.

Questions vollkan on his patented point system. Null, some people like that, some don't.

Post 323: "But scum claim PRs just as often as town, if not more, right? Does it really mean anything?' This looks like setting up a reason to lynch a claimed power role. Junpei had just entered the game (replacing Vifam) and had claimed Town Tracker, so maybe he's still tunnelling. Or distancing; Junpei was still in pretty serious danger although no longer at L-2.

Ouch, Post 368: Attacks Meransiel for lurking, which... if you look, Meransiel has more posts than most people. I don't agree with Meransiel's announcement that he won't play the first day, but I really don't see a reason scum would announce that and make themselves a target. My suspicions of Meran derived from later, when he was (imo) asking some unnecessary questions and fishing the vig; slight townread now on Meran.

Izak votes Meran though, moving the vote off Vifam (Junpei). But the real problem is here: "Junpei, you're being almost as stupid. Do you really think we have a jester here? Come on, jason's been here two years, you think he doesn't know how how much some people HATE jesters?"

Then why were you the first to suggest that there might be one? Why would it even occur to you, if it's so ludicrous?

In Post 485, unvotes Meransiel, demands information from Zinger ("you just softclaimed lyncher") and puts an FoS on Junpei with no vote.

Engages in some meaningless back and forth and then says "I don't think I buy Zinger's roleclaim. He could well be scum, or a dangerous third party. Even I'd he tells the truth, the fact that the town is the majority will mean he hits town more often than scum. I'm more than happy to lynch him on this, but if Meran won't hammer (why?), who will?" All this with no vote. Then fishes to see if Meransiel is a dayvig. Really?

Ah, never mind about the no vote, he does vote Zinger less than ten total posts later so that's a null.

Takes offense to Zinger's nasty comments. Null again.

Oh, hey, Pinky saw the same thing on the jester thing. Izak says he was quite obviously joking, but it really didn't read like that for me. In this long post (728) he also says it's not that he can't provide reads, he just hasn't put them into a list. (Why not?) And when pressed on his previous suspicion of Chevre, says this: "There was some focus on Chevre at that point. I was just making my stance known; how can that EVER be scummy?" Well, it's scummy if you're distancing, obviously.

Three of the last four posts from Izak are just classics of failure to commit.

Given the state of things righ now, I'd be fine with a Silver lynch, though I want to look into it a bit more before I place my vote.

@MoI well, now that you've outed him, I can totally see what you mean. I am still leaning towards silver more, but is there anything in particular that makes Andrew very scummy?

Thinking on it, I get some scummish vibes off of Rodion, but I'm not confident of this read.

I haven't played with Izak before and I'm sure that there will be a chorus of "Oh, he always plays like this!" However, I want to note that if someone always plays in a certain way then it's a nulltell, not a town tell and it doesn't confirm them as town. Therefore taking them off your suspicion list is a mistake in my opinion.

I still prefer Andrew as a lynch but I'm willing to vote Izak.

@Meran:

I think it was you who was appealing to the vig to shoot Izak, yet you've expressed that you don't want him lynched (working on memory here, please correct me if I'm wrong). What's the difference between lynching and vigging Izak in your view? Why that distinction?

[Banshee]

@Junpei:

Just the opposite, actually. I didn't realise Pinky had seen the same thing about Izak's jester comments until I was doing an ISO on Izak. I read the game twice when I replaced in but even so I missed plenty and that's one of the things I missed.

I know that Meransiel was lurking, but I still don't believe that announcing that you're planning to lurk and that you're not going to post is the sort of move scum would make. I don't want to get into the WIFOM aspect of that, but it's just drawing too much heat and too much attention and I don't think Izak's attacks on Meransiel are well justified in this regard. What Meran was doing made him useless and annoying, but it didn't make him scum imo.

[Banshee]

@Junpei:
Not really. If someone announces that they aren't going to do something unless they are pressured, and then are pressured, and they do something, that's all consistent.

@Rodion:
If you're not answering questions directed to you, please refrain from answering for other people. Ironically, if I'd asked you directly you wouldn't have answered, so butt out now, please.

[Banshee]

@Mera:

So basically your argument there is the same as mine regarding Zinger when I entered the game, which is that it's not as useful to lynch because lynching gains no information other than the simple flip. Ideally you'd want something that would give more information.

What do you think we gain from a Silver lynch in this regard? Do you think that his semi-gambit Day One has muddied the waters surrounding his lynch? Most people have indicated that they think Silver is at least somewhat scummy. If degree doesn't matter, as hinted at in your last post, why is Silver a better lynch?

[Banshee]

Overall, I got the feeling izak's

noooooottttt really

trying to scumhunt. At least to me it felt like he's content with lynching Zinger today, and that's grounds for not scumhunting the rest of the day. Since he wouldn't want to lynch anyone else, there must be no point. I'd looove thoughts on izak, guys. I still believe Zinger is a wonderful lynch today, and his flip would give me some insight on izak. But I felt this point was note-worthy and definitely worth bringing up.

Do you think that Zinger's flip gave you insight on izak? If so, what insight did you gain?

[Banshee]

By no stretch of the imagination could Zinger's play be considered pro-town or understandable town play. I challenge anyone who will argue that it should have been obvious that he was a pro-town role based on his play; I accept that others may have seen things I didn't, but it wasn't OBVIOUS.

You also don’t lynch a claimed Town Power-role Day 1 of a Large theme without a counter-claim. That’s Mafia 101. The people who pushed at him despite that deserve scrutiny.

I will respond with a quote from someone whom everyone agrees is definitely town:

It is a reasonable objection because, if we keep applying your standard, nothing that Zinger does this game will get him lynched. Tell me, Zel1nk, what would Zinger need to do to make you

support

lynching him?

I completely understand giving VIs a high level of tolerance. But, for example, if Vezok did the same thing that Zinger did, I'd lynch Vezok in a heartbeat. There are certain things (claiming scum, fakeclaiming guilties, etc.) which, even from a VI, must be treated as a lynchworthy scumtell. This is not, by the way, for policy reasons (eg. deterring similar play in the future); it's because, once you give them a pass for that level of terrible play, you've necessarily given them a pass for absolutely everything.

Pointing out that his play is irrational is irrelevant. His play is irrational no matter what his alignment is. The point is, he has claimed an anti-town role.

Silver is vanilla town. Ponies are voting him because that wagon is mostly scum. Over/under is 2.5, I lean to an over bet.

What part of this is intended as a joke, please?

[Banshee]

Silver is vanilla town. Ponies are voting him because that wagon is mostly scum. Over/under is 2.5, I lean to an over bet.

What part of this is intended as a joke, please?

None of it. Apart from Junepi and Shotty, everyone on that wagon is a scum read of varying degree, especially Hip and Mera who I would be thrilled to see catch a bullet tonight.

Then why did you say this?

I'll do way better tomorrow maybe tonight if I have time. That's a terrible recap of the three wagons.

You do realize the silver comment was a joke because im convinced he is town right?

[Banshee]

Because saying "most of the wagon is scum" is not a breakdown of anything that is useful. My feelings behind it were true, but I know its not what he wanted, hence a joke. Still don't even really understand the case on Silver myself.

For clarity, it was the way in which you said it rather than what you said that was the joke, correct?

The main case on Silver is that he made a huge sacrifice play and then seemed to back off it and did nothing further to try to save the person he claimed to be willing to die for. Because of the timing and the way it occurred, it looked like Silver was scum playing for town cred since he seemed to both have certain knowledge of Zinger's alignment and an apparent unwillingness to follow through on his original gambit, which really is the only pro-town thing he did all day one.

[Banshee]

It would be much fairer to label me "unpredictable" than "always this scummy and useless".

If you want to cement your unpredictable reputation, give us some reads on who you think the scum are and why. I will almost guarantee no one expects that at this point.

[Banshee]

I'm a little late back from night phase and this is what I come home to?

I don't believe Shotty's claim because that is an insanely overpowered role that makes no sense at all. (Seriously, count up the total number of actions that would give one player. SRSLY? I don't THINK so.) Also Easjo replaced out of that role (flaking pretty much as MoI predicted) and why, if you had all these powers, would you ever replace out of that role?

I don't believe Oversoul's claim, because I don't think people are informed that their powers have been redirected. I didn't redirect anyone's power anywhere.

I don't understand why Junpei and Castle Bravo have both apparently independently gone crazy.

I don't know FourseenCircumstance but the way he entered the game makes me wonder why he bothered. I checked the meta and my guess is he replaced into the game but really doesn't want to play it. Maybe the role sucks, since Hiplop sort of behaved the same way.

I'll wait for a while for Oversoul to claim. I'm willing to vote him without though.

@Meransiel:

The day hasn't lasted an entire real-life day yet. What's your rush?

[Banshee]

Holy crap.

We are now fighting over who to lynch?
When we have like 3 claimed scum?

I think there's a pretty clear consensus on who to lynch, actually.
Who do you think is fighting over it?

[Banshee]

Well, hmmm.

First, I don't recall anyone hinting that ANYONE was a gunsmith and I'm SURE that Chkballin did not say they were in a neighbourhood. I know MoI said there was an investigative role in the neighbourhood, but the rest of this is apparently privileged information from somewhere not in this thread. If the possible doctor isn't privy to that information, then that's on the people who had access to it. For now I'm assuming that this particular mistake was made by a neighbour and not by scum, but that can change depending on confirmations and information from other players.

It's my understanding that Serial Killers usually show up as no gun. Is that still usually the case?

I've never heard of scum being vengeful. While I believe MoI to be town based on his play surrounding the neighbourisers, I don't have any such semi-confirmation for Rainbowdash yet; thus, I'm not willing to jump onto a wagon that Rainbow has said herself is not likely to hit scum anyway. I agree with the analysis that if Shotty is town, RBD and MoI are town, but if Shotty is scum, it's likely at least one of the confirmed townies will be scum. Otherwise the gambit makes no sense to me. Because I think based on the last day's play that Rainbow is more than likely town, I'm thus left with the likely conclusion that either ZeL1nK and Shotty are both scum or that Shotty is town. Note that this is just MY opinion and I haven't played with Shotty or Rainbow before so I don't know that I'm right.

Can anyone confirm that Shotty plays this way as town? Or as scum?

@Rainbowdash: Do you think Shotty is likely town? Do you think his confirmation of you as town has anything to do with that opinion, either way that it falls? What makes you think that Silver is town, and does his latest post shake that read at all?

I'd like an explanation of the remaining powers for Shotty's role as well.

I'll be back with more questions, undoubtedly.

VOTE: Fourseen Circumstance

I have zero tolerance for this crap. I don't care what your alignment is, if you don't want to play, don't replace in.

[Banshee]

@Rainbow: I have no idea what's going on there. I did comment insofar as I politely refused the wagon.

@Izak: I actually agree with a good portion of that, but can you use something other than yellow for the middle part? It's really hard to read. Also, is it based on or similar to Vollkan's system (where 50 is the starting point, if I recall correctly)?

[Banshee]

Pressuring CB is definitely not going to help anything. He's giving PLENTY of reads and plenty of information, he's just furious with MoI. I don't know that this is indicative of his alignment, or some spat between the two, or what. I have literally no clue what made him so angry, but I don't think pressuring him is going to make any difference to that.

Have you read FC in isolation? He's done nothing but ask to be killed, vote himself, and sheep other people's votes. NOTHING ELSE. I don't know his alignment. I think it's despicable and disgusting to replace in to a game and behave the way he's behaved. I'm voting him, but if I thought we could get a replacement for him, I'd be pushing for THAT. At minimum, either he starts playing the game or he gets the hell out, that's how I feel about it. You want CB gone for pressuring MoI -- I argue that at least he's pressuring SOMEONE. What the hell is FC doing except wasting space and asking for death? You're wagoning someone you think may be town, by your own admission. I'm not jumping on that wagon with you because I think CB is actually helpful in getting reactions and reads (your defense of MoI, for instance) and FC is doing nothing but dragging the game down and contributing zero, zip, nada.

Surely you can see the difference between the two.

[Banshee]

@Rodion: Okay, I stand corrected and I see what you mean. It's possible that we don't have a doctor since we lost the Jailkeeper role.

@everyone: Going to see a movie so I'll not be responding more tonight. I'll catch up tomorrow.

EBWOP: @Izak: I'm right that the top is your scum reads and the bottom is your town reads, yes? I disagree on placement of Junpei, ZeL1nK (tentatively on that one) and Jakalope. I would put killerjester closer to the top of the town as well. Sorry to be hurried but I don't want to be late.

[Banshee]

Who was the user in this game that so adamently said there were no cults?

Well, a search reveals that Junpei mentioned cults first here (incorrectly, because I then went to look and the sign-up thread says no Jesters or Governors) but I wouldn't say it was an adamant statement.

drmyshotty in the sign up thread it said no jesters/cults.

Pinky, now known town, was the adamant one in this post:

If there's a cult in this game...

I swear to God you will see the Dugtrio in our avatar come out of the ground in shock.

@Silver: What do you see as the advantages of Rainbowdash's plan? What conclusions will you personally draw
1) if Castle Bravo flips scum or third party?
2) if Castle Bravo flips town?

If you are fine with Rainbow's plan why are you not voting it?

[Banshee]

I prefer Meransiel or Silver. My first choice is already on this wagon.

[Banshee]

No. Rodion is confirmed not to have a weapon.
He could be Mafia doctor, SK, or some other third party.

It's just not LIKELY, but don't call him conftown just yet.

[Banshee]

The Gunsmith is an information role that can target a player at Night to learn if they have a gun in flavor. Members of the Mafia

(that are not Doctors)

, Cops, FBI Agents, Vigilantes, other Gunsmiths, Paranoid Gun Owners, etc. all have guns in traditional flavor. Notably, Serial Killers and Doctors do not have guns.

This should not be construed to mean that I think Rodion is a Mafia doctor. I think he's probably town and that I was wrong. But he's not CONFIRMED town, nor are any of the others until Shotty flips town or scum imo.

[Banshee]

@Mod: Can we have a prod on Junpei please?

I know it hasn't been all that long, but we need his results.

Thanks!

[Banshee]

I don't agree with the plan as it currently stands. Here's how I would change it.

• Meransiel should hammer today.
  Shotty should NOT hammer today, in my opinion, but should use his weak doc power on the person we decide is most likely to be scum.
  If Shotty lives, we lynch him.
  If he dies, we lynch the person he doctored.
  

I can accept substitutes for any name mentioned except Shotty. I think this way gives us the absolute most information (we'll get Shotty's flip tomorrow either way according to my plan, and we'll potentially get added information about a second scummy person) and puts us on the best footing to go forward.

If there are glaring flaws in my logic, please let me know.

Nonofficial voting

I vote Hammer: Meransiel
I vote Doctor: FourseenCircumstance

[Banshee]

To answer your questions in reverse order:

I think FourseenCircumstance is scum, but I'm not certain of it. Shotty can verify it for us either by dying or by surviving and then being lynched. Even if Shotty's doctor results are tampered with somehow, we don't get LESS information than we would have previously without the chance of a read on someone since we're planning to lynch Shotty tomorrow anyway.

I think whoever we decide on to hammer will do it or be lynched in CB's place; that was how I understood the situation, anyway.

[Banshee]

I believe KillerJester's claim. I thought he was town before though, so this should surprise no one.

I think Magna is conveniently forgetting what he claimed earlier was a "cardinal scumtell." I already explained why my vote is where it is. I already explained what I thought was a good plan, and of course everyone is free to follow it or not as they wish, just as with Magna's plan or Rainbow's plan. I point out that Magna never answered my correction FROM THE RULESET about Mafia doctors so it's not like he's infallible. I also haven't really heard of a vengeful scum but to be fair this is my first game in a while so I don't pretend to know what's currently in vogue.

Logically, however:

If CB is scum, then scum already know his role and his power. If CB's scum role lets him kill one person on the wagon without specifications (something I've only seen in a town role, but whatever) then scumMoI and scumRainbowdash would have no issues being on the wagon for CB because he simply wouldn't hit them. If CB's scum role is true vengeful and he only kills the hammer, then MoI and Rainbowdash would already be on the wagon if they were scum and simply wouldn't be the hammer. So MoI and Rainbowdash CANNOT logically be scum with CB. Neither one can be. Their behaviour makes no sense for scum if CB is scum.

If CB is town, then both town and scum might avoid being on his wagon since neither one would know if he was vengeful or Supersaint. If CB is town then no real conclusions about alignment can be drawn about MoI or Rainbowdash until Shotty's flip and perhaps not even then if Shotty is scum. General play makes me believe that of the Shotty-confirmed VTs, MoI is town (horribly annoying town), Rainbowdash is more than likely town and ZeL1nK might be his scum buddy. I don't understand the point of the gambit otherwise, unless Shotty actually is town and giving true reads. Which seems really unlikely to me, because that claim is WAY overpowered, especially since now we have a gunsmith (proven and known) and a goon cop (I believe KJ) and supposedly a tracker (maybe not a town tracker, true).

@MOD:

Any idea how long Junpei expects to be V/LA?

[Banshee]

I have already said that I would vote for Shotty but I doubt that my lonely little vote along with Meransiel's is going to make a great big wagon. I have already said that I can't get a read on Castle because he's angry and that's a nulltell. He's furious with you. Care to comment on why? Because I surely don't see it in a meta read, so it's something recent, it's something personal, or it's something fake. I don't know what's going on, so if you want to enlighten us, I'd be pleased to hear it.

And your comment about the Mafia doctor? Look at it again, with the "rolleyes" and tell me you're not being annoyingly condescending to me, along with most of the other players in the game. And you aren't even guaranteed to be right, the wiki contradicts you. So lay off the snotty attitude, please.

I'm fine with Shotty hammering, though I would prefer the chance to get more info from a night-doctor investigation IN CASE he's town. But I don't think it's very likely he's town, so I'm not committed to my plan, hence the request for criticism and comment on it.

My vote for Castle Bravo will not make him talk sense. It will not do anything but make him a little more dead. However, my vote on FourseenCircumstance ALREADY had more effect on him than your back and forth sniping with CB has had on HIM. You're not voting for Shotty, you're not voting for CB, you're not doing anything but sniping at everyone else, yelling at anything anyone else except Rainbow does and trying to be the boss because you're the closest thing we have to confirmed town.

So COOL IT. Others are playing too and no one elected you king.

[Banshee]

Okay. I've said that I don't think Rodion is confirmed town. I make this distinction because of games in which I believed someone was confirmed town based on a certain set of assumptions and then got burned by it. Perhaps this has not happened to you personally. It has happened to me, so I get edgy when people say someone is confirmed town when they are NEARLY confirmed town. There's a difference. No gun does not make you town; it does what Chkballin said (if I'd not been too stupid to pick up on it) -- it makes you no threat. I don't want to become lazy and start considering people conftown when they're not actually confirmed. If you want to take that as a scumtell, more power to you.

I made a mistake in referring to the Wiki as the Ruleset because I thought they were the same thing. I've heard the terms used interchangeably before when discussing setups, and so I thought that the wiki was authoritative. That said, it still says that Mafia doctors have no guns and I haven't seen counterevidence in a ruleset that overrules it.

I voted FourseenCircumstance and he immediately made a post in which he did not ask to be killed, ask why he wasn't dead yet, or confine himself to one or two lines. To me, that looks like progress. Of course, he then voted "Radion" but at least he did SOMETHING that could be evaluated. Trolls sometimes get scum roles too, and letting them troll with impunity isn't helping anyone imo. Yeah, I think I made progress there.

Yes, I missed your vote. Surprise, I'm not perfect, but then I'm not acting like I am, either, or sneering down my nose any time anyone disagrees with me or does something I think is suboptimal play.

[Banshee]

I am on board for a Shotty lynch also.

DX needs to claim if he has a guilty.

I don't understand this comment.

[Banshee]

I was never crazy about the Castle Bravo lynch. However, I also thought first that Rodion was scum and then that Rodion had softclaimed doctor during the last day, so I'm willing to accept my reads haven't been terrific this game.

I still think Shotty is a MUCH better lynch for today, though.

[Banshee]

^ This.

VOTE: Drmyshottyiszik

[Banshee]

Izak, you realise that you, FourseenCircumstance and Mysterio have only been cleared of being Mafia Goons, right? Not any other variety of Mafia?

[Banshee]

I approve. I would vote Shotty but I already am.

Peregrine, do not claim.

[Banshee]

@MOI:

I'm willing to vote (yes, and even hammer) Castle Bravo today if you agree we can lynch Shotty tomorrow with no more stalling.

[Banshee]

Fair enough.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Castle Bravo

[Banshee]

@Rainbow:

It is currently impossible to get any reads on anyone with Castle Bravo interjecting his particular variety of chaos into the thread. He's derailed conversations over and over and has claimed scum repeatedly; I'm generally against policy lynches, but that HAS to be one if ever any are to be made.

He's already been proven wrong about Rodion (as have I) and he's still behaving as if he is infallible and throwing suspicion in all directions in ORDER to derail any coherent discussion.

He's claimed scum, he's not going to stop muddying the waters, so it's time for him to go.

[Banshee]

@Izak: Yes, let's lynch Castle Bravo. Shotty is tomorrow's lynch.

[Banshee]

@Castle Bravo:

If the lynch today had been Shotty instead and he flipped scum, would this have affected your reads on who is scum and who is town? If so, how would it have changed your views?

Do we have a full twenty-four hours to discuss with you, or was that a figure of speech?

[Banshee]

@Vezok:

We already hammered Castle Bravo.

While I cannot be certain, I believe Peregrine was being ironic.

@Mod:

May we have a vote count, please?

[Banshee]

@Mysterio: Based on your last post, why aren't you voting Shotty?

VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

@MoI: I'm holding you to your promise.

[Banshee]

Since we apparently have some time and some people who haven't posted much are around at the moment:

@ZeL1Nk

: What was your impression of the whole Castle Bravo thing while it was ongoing? How has your opinion changed since the flip that revealed both Rainbow and CB as town?

@Silver

: Why would it be more beneficial to town to lynch Peregrine first than to lynch Shotty first?

[Banshee]

What do you think the point of this line of questioning is?

[Banshee]

All right, so far I've derived that you weren't paying any attention during the last day ... or, for that matter, for a while.

I'm certain that Shotty is going to flip scum. If he doesn't, that's awesome, we have a whole bunch of confirmed town. If he doesn't, then I have to start looking at people I was assuming were town. I'm not likely to think MoI is scum at this point. Rainbowdash is confirmed town by death. You're the other VT Shotty "found", and you weren't even bothering to read or keep up with the thread for the last few days of the game. Since scum already know who the scum are, they don't need to read the thread to find out either. So yeah, I wanted a reaction from you and I got it.

It's POSSIBLE that all Shotty's reads were truthful even if he IS scum, but I kind of doubt it, don't you?

[Banshee]

That's one of the most useless VCAs I've ever seen, and Banshee is 1.775, not 1.35.

This is correct, you missed me off the last wagon, MoI.

You know how I know you're scum. Because if you were town, scum would have killed you already; you're that smart.

You're wrong, but I kind of want to sig that anyway.

[Banshee]

If there are six scum remaining aren't we at LYLO?

[Banshee]

-Nero

We lynch scumShotty today and tomorrow we lynch scumSilver.

vote:Shotty

You are really going to forget about peregrine?

---
I'm willing for either of the two.

Putting aside the whole thing with the VCA and whatever weird OMGUS in both directions is going on with Nero and Silver, I want to remember this deflection and point it out for the morning just in case.

Also, I don't think ZeL1nK can be scum since he's disputing a VCA that more or less clears him. I don't see why scum would do that.

[Banshee]

Why were you suggesting Peregrine over Shotty yesterday by the way? It seemed rather out of place..

I'd like an answer to this too.

@Peregrine: Why did you claim Holy SK yesterday? I have a theory but I want an answer from you directly. Also, are you serious about doing a VCA?

@FourseenCircumstance: Why did you ask why you were still alive upon entering the game?

[Banshee]

At that point, most of us were ignoring Peregrine because it seemed pretty obvious that Shotty was scum (how many fakeclaims did that guy make, anyway?) and lynching Peregrine would ONLY have made sense in my opinion if Shotty had been lynched and had flipped town. I didn't think that was possible given the scummy scummy SCUMMY level of play out of Shotty. I can't speak for everyone but I'm betting most people felt the same way I did.

Did you think we should be looking at Peregrine at that point? Do you think your response had something to do with OMGUS toward Nero?

[Banshee]

Can someone tell me how many claimed PR's (Town or otherwise) we have left alive?

I think it's

Zeilink - Tracker
and Peregrine - SK?

1. Are you actually reading this game at all?

2. Why did you ask that question?

[Banshee]

@Silver: Why did you want to know how many power roles were left? You are clearly aware of Peregrine's claim of Holy Serial Killer. Do you know the circumstances surrounding that hardclaim?

Do you intend at any point to start reading the game?

Who do you think the most likely scum are, and why?

@Fourseen: WHY do you think it's strange you're still alive? I STILL do not understand why you'd come into a game and start saying that.

[Banshee]

Because said prs still being alive erks me. Said prs still being alive and there not having been any additional night kills except for some holy kills erks me more.

Do you intend at any point to start reading the game?

You do know I was being sarcastic... right?

No. Your sarcasm would be more clear if you had been able to identify that ZeL1nK's PR claim was almost certainly a gambit based on later events, if you had known that Junpei was the Tracker and that ZeL1nK was the soft-claimed vig, or if you had noted that Shotty (now known scum) was the one who accused Peregrine of being a Holy SK. Shotty's credibility is perhaps not the best at this point, at least in my opinion. You don't seem to be paying attention to the game, something that scum don't have to do either since they don't have to scumhunt at all.

Why would it upset you that a claimed TOWN power role remained alive? I'm referring to ZeL1nK here.

However, still waiting for Peregrine to answer. I want to note as well that every one of Shotty's "investigations" has flipped the way he indicated so far. I am still unsure what that means.

[Banshee]

@Silver:
Either you're reading the game or you aren't. So you weren't being sarcastic then? Everyone else had the same 113 pages to go through. IF you are reading the game, and that's a big if, you don't seem to understand it.

You apparently are suspicious of ZeL1nK for being alive this far into the game. Can you explain to me why he might still be alive if he is town, based on other postings in this thread?

ZeL1nK is actually the LEAST suspicious person according to MoI's VCA. So how does that fit in with your "I suspect the people at the top of the VCA" comment?

@Peregrine: Please weigh in and answer my previous questions.

[Banshee]

ZeL1nK is Vanilla Town as well.

Ring any bells?

That's probably why scum didn't go after him. Either ZeL1nK is scum, which I find unlikely based on his recent play, or he's Vanilla Townie and as such no threat to them. This is not a DETAIL. Shotty's sequence of clears and accusations make up the primary focus of the recent days of the game.

If MoI's analysis is correct there are probably at least three goons still in the game. Thus, being cleared as a non-goon makes you less likely overall to be scum, especially since there can only be one or two more scum powerroles left, most likely one. I think FourseenCircumstance would be unlikely to make the comments he has if he were a scum powerrole. I don't see the town motivation either, but gut says he's not a scum powerrole and we know he's not a goon.

I haven't liked your responses to my questions and I do think you're trying hard to look like you're participating without actually contributing anything at all. I don't think you're reading the thread. I think you're trying to blend in to the crowd.

VOTE: Silverbullet

@David: I know. But he has no idea why he agrees with that and he's also throwing suspicion on ZeL1nK at the BOTTOM of MoI's VCA. He's just trying to fit in and sheep a dead townie. To me that's a pretty big scumtell, especially combined with not bothering to keep up with the game.

[Banshee]

I looked at Shotty's clears and accusations. Just tons of WIFOM there, I'm ignoring pretty much everything he said.

Waiting on Peregrine to respond.

@Izak: What do you think about the other two semi-cleared non-goons?

[Banshee]

You understand, Silver, that that quote from Shotty is from fairly early in the game?

I was explaining WHY scum wouldn't bother killing ZeL1nK as a power role. I don't happen to think that ZeL1nK is scum, but my opinion here doesn't matter; ZeL1nK is probably not a power role. If Shotty was truthful, then ZeL1nK is Vanilla Town. If Shotty was lying and ZeL1nK were scum, then why wouldn't he have supported ZeL1nK's softclaim of vig and said he was a pro-town Vig?

I mean, that's not WIFOM, that's common sense. If you were keeping up with the game at ALL you would understand this.

Why are you not voting one of the people at the top of the VCA if you think it's accurate and that's why MoI was killed?

Your suspicion of people does not have to fit together in one lumped reason. It DOES have to make some kind of sense, however. And you're not making any right now.

[Banshee]

Fair enough. I missed that. Why were you pushing suspicion at ZeL1nK and Peregrine, in that case?

[Banshee]

@Vezok and Izak: I have a theory about that but I want to wait and see what Peregrine says first in case I am wrong.

[Banshee]

I thought that Peregrine was trying to taunt Castle Bravo into vengekilling him rather than Rainbowdash. I didn't want to announce that before Peregrine could explain because I didn't want to give him a ready-made explanation.

I would like to wait for Peregrine to do the promised VCA. I'm not sure how much stock I put in them personally but I think anything that gives us more information is good and maybe others can see things in them that I would miss.

[Banshee]

I want to wait for Peregrine's VCA anyway so I'm happy to wait for ZeL1nK's input. I want to reread day one for myself anyway and that will give me time to do it.

[Banshee]

Ack, please quit leaving me off the VCA! I'm with Izak and ZeL1nK (ZeL1nK is the lowest figure on this, I think Izak and I are tied) but I'm not cleared by anything so I think that makes me purple.

As I said I do not want to lynch one of the confirmed non-goons today. Statistically we're better off looking elsewhere for now. I want a Silver lynch but I'm doing a day one reread to make sure I didn't miss anything about Zinger's meltdown and the surrounding stuff there.

[Banshee]

I am willing to vote to lynch Peregrine or Silver today. I really would rather not lynch Fourseen. I have done meta on Fourseen and he's always sort of like this as town, though perhaps not to this degree. As scum he's more float under the radar in my meta read, and I doubt he'd have called attention to himself like that if he really were a scum power role.

Reasons to lynch Peregrine: His response about why he claimed scum seemed more like taunting Castle Bravo than pro-town reasoning. I thought when he did it that he was trying to draw the vengekill away from MoI and Rainbow. His explanation was different and doesn't really make any sense to me (one assumes Castle Bravo knew that claiming Mafia goon didn't make him one) so to cut through the WIFOM I can go along with this lynch.

Reasons to lynch Silver: He really did look to be trying to derail Shotty's lynch in favour of Peregrine's; I guess not just to me. Again, there's WIFOM surrounding the sacrifice move Silver made day one (and I still think Silver made the offer for whatever reasons and then had buyer's remorse almost immediately, since he stopped pushing it almost as soon as people started taking him up on it). There's more WIFOM, since if Silver is lynched and flips scum OR town Peregrine is still not cleared; the reverse is true too, since if Peregrine is lynched first and flips town or SK, then Silver's odd redirect from Shotty to Peregrine still implicates Silver, and if Peregrine flips goon then Silver might have been trying to save the scum power role over the goon.

Meh, either Peregrine or Silver is a good lynch and better than Fourseen in my opinion.

[Banshee]

I have done meta on Fourseen and he's always sort of like this as town, though perhaps not to this degree.

Links

Seriously? Go look for yourself. I am not rereading that again just because you're too lazy to do any of the research yourself.

[Banshee]

In this game Fourseen was scum.

Here note the effort he's putting forth and the actual research he seems to have done.

Same game. Showing reasoning, quoting others to make his points. This whole game is a showcase of Fourseen as scum.

As town, here you go.

Can we just lynch me already then?

Same town game:

I wish I would die

So, hey, Silver, why did you lie about having done a meta on Fourseen, dude?

[Banshee]

You meta'd Fourseen as scum in one ongoing game that you therefore can't provide any evidence for and you thought that was good enough? And then you try to change the subject when you're caught out on it?

PLEASE can we lynch Silver today?

[Banshee]

First, I don't have any level of confidence that Fourseen is town. I put a vote on him in the first place when he came in with this crap, as you would know if you actually bothered to keep up with the game in recent days. So I'm not trying to "dissuade" the Fourseen lynch. I think there are better ones, and I pointed out that I did. What have you done to push your Fourseen lynch except sheep MoI without any logic or added reasons of your own?

One game does not constitute a meta read on another player. You have to have both scum and town or you're just wasting your time and everyone else's.

And by the way, making nasty personal comments only makes you look even more like caught scum.

[Banshee]

Yeah, I'd rather not. Wow, that's a stunning indictment not only of the wagon but of everyone who's on it... except, wait, it's not. It's a comment that I think there's a better wagon or two out there. Why do YOU think Fourseen is the best wagon for today?

Silver, what's your case against Fourseen independent of MoI's vote count analysis? What do you think is the scummiest thing he's done? Why is scum more likely to behave that way than town, in your opinion?

And trying to insult someone's intelligence with a not-so-subtle reference to the "blonde" stereotype is not only a personal comment, it's an inane and trite one.

[Banshee]

I'll go look at those game when I have time.

Off-topic: when you go to ISO someone it let's you add a second name, but the second dropdown doesn't work... help?

I don't really understand what you're asking but when I do an ISO to see links I first ISO one person and do an on-page search for the other name (shortened with the * at the end to pick up any misspellings) and then reverse it so that I get both.

It's not elegant or easy but it works pretty well. Hopefully someone else can give you a better answer.

[Banshee]

All right, in order:

I presented evidence for the two wagons I support. That is the way I usually try to push wagons. I'm not trying to STOP Fourseen's wagon because he very well may be scum. I just think you and Peregrine are more likely candidates so I'm trying to PUSH you two. See how that differs? I'm not defending Fourseen, I'm attacking you and Peregrine. I am not trying to dissuade Fourseen's lynch. I'm making cases AGAINST you because I want to lynch you. So quit misrepresenting the situation. Making cases against you two DOES constitute supporting my position on who should be lynched.

Why is the colour of my hair of such great importance to you, Silver? It's creepy stalkery and it's none of your business. And if you really think hair colour determines intelligence or flakiness, may I introduce you to Miss Clairol? You two have a lot to talk about.

[Banshee]

You're arguing with me because I gave reasoning behind my actions? SRSLY? You're actually saying I gave you TOO MUCH INFORMATION about the basis for my opinions and actions, and that's your complaint?

[Banshee]

Timeline of order of events.

Banshee posts "I want to lynch Silver and Peregrine more than Fourseen.

Extended paragraph about reasons to lynch Silver.

Extended paragraph about reasons to lynch Peregrine.

I did meta and meh, Fourseen acts like this as town more than as scum."

Silver posts "Links because I'm too lazy to actually read the game or have an opinion of my own so please spoon feed me the game whenever I decide to stop in and grace you with my presence"

Banshee posts "No stop being lazy and do it yourself"

Silver posts "I did but I can't post because I looked at one ongoing game and he was scum and he acted kinda like this, not that I could prove it and I didn't really want to do any actual work to do a meta but I still want the town cred for it even though I just looked really fast right now"

Banshee finally posts her evidence and links, redoing all her previous work and posting it as quickly as she can.

Silver then attacks Banshee for giving the evidence HE ASKED FOR because now he can pretend she made a great big defense of Fourseen unprovoked. Makes some unsolicited remarks about dumb blondes.

Fixed that for ya.

[Banshee]

Why am I still alive :/

This was his first post after replacing into the game. His second post contained a self-vote.

Though your point about being lurky later is right, and fits with my impression of him as scum.

I guess it's possible he may be scum relying on someone finding his town meta and bringing it up the way I just did? That would actually be really clever. Eh, it's WIFOMy and I am not sure I'm right.

ETA:

No not at all, her not posting her findings until asked is though.
(By findings I mean actual evidence.)

You said you'd done a meta on Fourseen before, Silver, and you didn't post it AT ALL or even MENTION it until I mentioned one. So that must mean you're REALLY scummy, right?

Hypocrisy is a pretty big scumtell too.

[Banshee]

That's true, I just felt she was trying to soft defend him while pretending to not at the same time... if you get my meaning.

I get the feeling from this that Silver is trying to soft attack me while pretending to not at the same time... if you get my meaning.

I did and I didn't get the oh he's town feeling from his meta... I don't really bother mentioning meta until someone else brings it up because I don't have much faith in it.

In sharp contrast to your faith in your keen deductive skills based on what colour the poster's hair is. Gotcha.

[Banshee]

Confirmed non-goon means very little to me unless someone can tell me the number of scum PRs left. So far we've had one goon flip, one neighbouriser flip and one rolecop flip, and given the strength/number of town PRs that have died so far, I'd say we're looking at another 2-3 scum PRs and 1-2 goons.

I think there would be a higher percentage of goon roles than you're assuming because Killerjester was a Goon Cop. I'm not that great at assessing balance though. Had you factored KJ's role into your assessment?

In order of preference, I am willing to lynch:

• Silver
  Peregrine
  FourseenCircumstance

today. I'm trying to do a reread over the first part of the game; it's fairly hard to follow, however. In case others are having the same problems I have with tracking who is who through the replacements and hydras, I'm going to post something I've been using. I would appreciate any corrections or additions that anyone notices.

Currently alive:

• Meransiel
  vezokpiraka
  
  PeregrineV (Shotty-identified SK)
  
  Banshee (replaced marco1610)
  Nero Cain
  David Xanatos
  ZeL1nK (Shotty innocent)
  TheJakalope (replaced Chevre)
  
  izakthegoomba (non-goon)
  Mysterio (replaced Leonshade) (non-goon)
  FourseenCircumstance (replaced Hipaddict1) (also Hiplop, nintendoaddict1, ThreeIsFrench,DonJosh) (non-goon)
  
  silverbullet999 (also cjdrum, silverdrummer) (Shotty innocent and then guilty)

Dead:

• Zinger2099 was Earl Hickey, Town Jailkeeper lynched day 1
  Vollkan was Sam McPherson, vanilla town, killed night 1 (replaced Jilynne)
  
  Andrew was Joey Tribbiani, Mafia Neighborizer lynched Day 2
  
  Pappums Leather Jacket was Omar Little. Vengeful townie killed Night 2 (also Pappums Rat, The Fonz)
  
  Oversoul was Desmond Hume, Mafia Goon lynched day 3.
  
  Pinky and the Brain was Matthew Malone, Vanilla town killed night 3 (also diddin, hoppster)
  
  CHKBallin was Fox Mulder, town gunsmith Strangled to death with an obscure religious symbol, night 3.(also Glowball, chkflip)
  (different kill)
  
  Rodion was Dr Sheldon Cooper, Vanilla Town turned Neutral Survivor. Modkilled Day 4.
  
  KillerJester was Michael Guerin, Town Goon Cop killed night 4
  
  Junpei was Ben Sisko, Town Tracker Strangled to death by an obscure religious symbol, night 4 (replaced Vifam)
  (different kill)
  Castle Bravo was Penny, Vengeful townie lynched day 5 (also GreyIce, replaced Pine)
  RainbowDash was Benjamin Linus, vanilla town vengefully killed Day 5 (replaced Crappy who replaced Pvt Slate)
  THAdmiral was Kara "Starbuck" Thrace, town Neighborizer Killed Night 5.
  
  drmyshottyizsik was Charlie Harper, Mafia Day Rolecop, Lynched Day 6 (replaced Easjo)
  
  MagnaofIllusion was Angel, Vanilla town killed night 6

Hopefully that will be some help.

[Banshee]

@Silver: I assumed since one player had already been modkilled for referencing an ongoing game that everyone would know better than to reference an ongoing game in that way. So it didn't occur to me you were trying to skirt the rules about that. I did think you were trying to lure me into breaking those rules when you started demanding meta, so I was lucky I'd done an extensive one back when I voted Fourseen in the first place and then reviewed it again lately. It somewhat cemented my already-held opinion that you were scum, since I don't see a reason town would try to get town modkilled in the way it looked like you were trying to do. I have to admit I was probably wrong about that suspicion of you, because you then proceeded to do yourself exactly what I thought you were trying to get me to do.

As for the blonde comment, it's a sexist stereotype (notice how it hardly ever is applied to men?) and it's a personal comment that has no place here. Hair colour is a personal attribute of the player and has no bearing on their alignment or their play. It's an ad hominem attempt to put down the poster and reduce their credibility without having any real in-game reasoning to back it up. As such, I regard it as scummy and yes, creepy. I doubt you would make a comment about someone being fat because they posted something jolly in thread, and it wouldn't be relevant or appropriate if you did.

--------------

The point about Peregrine being killed by the scum if he's really the SK is valid, so I can see that Peregrine is not the lynch for today.

The previous discussion has made me doubt my town read on Fourseen Circumstance because the quotes from that other game are nearly

identical

to the quotes from this game. If Fourseen is actually very smart scum, he could be playing to his town meta deliberately in order to lure some dumbass into checking his meta and posting that he acts like this as town.

Meh. I'm not sure of my own read on Fourseen. And I don't want to be the dumbass who stopped us from lynching scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: FourseenCircumstance

[Banshee]

Fourseen up my scum reads, however.

Not exactly sure what this means. At a guess, Fourseen is at the top of your suspicions?

[Banshee]

Meransiel has already indicated his wish to hammer. So that's only one more vote needed to lynch Fourseen.

[Banshee]

@Meransiel:

As for why Mysterio is scum,

On Leon:

My initial thoughts when the game was actually happening and I was participating in D1 were that Leon was town, and I really cannot remember why I thought that. Something he said somewhere made me think it, and I can't find it on rereading.

He was a very low-information poster. A lot of his content was really fluff, and he didn't give much in the way of opinions on people other than who he was voting for (up until people started posting reads lists).

Both the way in which he jumped on the Jil wagon and his position on the Jil wagon were really suspicious. (FTR, this was the jil wagon: Jilynne 4 - Pinky, Vifam, Nero, Leonshade <- and I really do not believe that was 4 townies on a townie, which is why I think at least one of Leon-Myst and NC is scum, more likely Leon-Myst)

His jump on the Vifam wagon was equally suspicious, and the second time he's jumped on a wagon for not much of a reason while providing very little information.

And then, predictably, he joined another town wagon, Zinger, and stayed there for the entire day, using the "well, you lied, gotta lynch you!" defense to justify his vote.

Also, if Mysterio is scum, #993 is worth reviewing because 4 of those 5 players in his reads list are still alive. I personally think that reads list is trash and he was just commenting on mainstream wagons and calling them all scum (other than DavidX who he was null on and required a re-read).

His D2 posts were really, really dodgy in hindsight. He questions shotty a little bit in #1529, but it seems more like "hi, I'm your scum buddy!" than genuinely questioning shotty.

And #1698 is just an intersting read, given the flips so far.

As for Mysterio himself, so far his content can be summed up as:

Vote Oversoul, claim he's either town or he bussed, Vote Castle Bravo, berate Rodion for not wanting to lynch claimed scum, Vote Castle Bravo again (after the Rodion modkill), complain about Castle Bravo's play after he was lynched and complain about having to deal with Shotty, Vote Shotty, point fingers at Peregrine, ask silver

"what makes you think I'm scum?"

And that's it. Rather unimpressive, although I guess that's slightly hypocritical given my play in recent game days.


tl;dr of it: Haven't seen any genuine scum hunting from his slot all game.

The part of the quote above that I bolded is the best and most compelling argument against Mysterio imo.

I vaguely remember thinking Leon was scummy on my first read of the game, but I need to reread in order to remember why. However, I think Silver is scum and Mysterio is unlikely to be scum with Silver so I am basically assuming Mysterio is town for now. I can see ZeL1nK's reasoning but I don't agree with it because he and I differ on Silver; I think ZeL1nK is town though.

[Banshee]

Snarky answer: Depends on whether anyone else wants to claim SK or scum, doesn't it?

Serious answer: I don't know. Long days lead to fatigue and a willingness to lynch anyone. I'm not sure if we're at LYLO now (I haven't reread MoI's VCA yet, and he wasn't certain of how many scum would be in the setup either) and I don't want to rush either, but I don't know that we need TWENTY DAYS to decide what to do. That seems awfully long.

I think without rereading that Silver and Peregrine are the last of Shotty's results still alive. I could be wrong on this though. WIFOM on what that means, but as I recall every one of his other results flipped the way he said they would.

@Anyone

: Is it even possible to have an SK that chooses not to kill? It's not clear from the wiki and in the games I have played personally or read over that has NEVER been true.

[Banshee]

EBWOP:

And I forgot:

@Peregrine

: Are you still working on a VCA?

[Banshee]

I am currently rereading the game; hopefully I'll have something more constructive to say once I've finished that.

I'm stuck on a lot of WIFOM currently, so I am hoping this reread with the recent flips will make some things clearer.

Sorry about not posting more right now.

[Banshee]

I'm willing for a massclaim; I don't really see what good it will do us, but I have no objection.

I'm about done with my reread and it didn't resolve as much for me as I was hoping, so, I do have a couple of questions that I'm hopeful someone could answer.

1. For people who have played with Shotty before, does he generally play to his win condition? Is he capable of actually helping the other team win in what seems a purposeful manner?

2. In general, a day rolecop only gets results during the actual days, not pregame, correct?

[Banshee]

Okay, here's where my WIFOM problems lie.

Shotty gave a great many reports (remember that he at one point claimed inventor) and they basically boil down to this:

• MagnaOfIllusion - Vanilla Townie (confirmed by death)
  Rainbowdash - Vanilla Townie (confirmed by death)
  Andrew - Scum Neighborizer (confirmed by death)
  ZeL1nK - Vanilla Townie (confirmed by death)
  Peregrine (Holy SK)
  Silver (Jailkeeper also scum)

Out of six results from Shotty, four have been confirmed true by death. One was bussing another scum. None of Shotty's results have been wrong so far either by flipping scum or by mislynching town.

We have two extra nightkills with no other evidence of an SK. My own investigation shows that it's VERY RARE that an SK is not compelled to kill, so I guess that it's not an SK or it's an SK with a very odd mechanic.

The targets of the two odd-flavoured nightkills:

• ChkBallin: This could have been a vig shot gone wrong; ChkBallin was somewhat scummy at this point. (In hindsight it's easy to see that Chk was trying to play middle of the road scummy as a town power role. It's still an understandable mistake for a vig to make.)
  

BUT THEN you have:

• Junpei: A claimed town tracker. Again, possibly a vig shot gone wrong, but it seems unlikely that a vig would focus on a claimed town role.

And I just noticed something else:

@MOD

: Can you clarify whether it was Killerjester or Junpei who was killed with the "obscure religious symbol" flavour? The picture captions say one thing but the flavour text contradicts it.

My WIFOM problem lies in that Shotty was scum and so should be playing to a scum win condition. But he mentions six people and was truthful about four of them so far, including losing scum a power role. He identifies Peregrine as an SK (which I've explained my problem with before) and identifies Silver as Jailkeeper and also scum. This marks the first time when Shotty takes back a claimed role. He's recanted a lot of things, but I don't see any other time when he waffles on his claims about people's roles.

What's going on at the time Shotty starts talking about Silver being Jailkeeper? Well, everyone is voting for Shotty, Shotty is voting for Peregrine (the claimed Holy Serial Killer), Silver is saying that he can go for either Peregrine or Shotty and saying there won't be two town jailkeepers. Then does a 180, says he thinks Silver is scum and tries to lynch him.

Here's my WIFOM. ZeL1nK at least appears to be open to thinking Shotty is town playing horribly badly at the time Shotty changes his tune on Silver. At the point where Shotty calls Silver scum and tries to get him lynched, the

very act

of calling Silver scum and trying to get him lynched ensures that Shotty will die because he sacrifices all credibility at that moment. (For me, a long time before, but that's the end of it for everyone.)

Why the fluctuation on Silver when there isn't any on anyone else? Why the weird sacrificial change of heart and sudden suspicion on someone whom he'd claimed to have rolecopped Jailkeeper?

All of these depends on there being SOME rhyme or reason to Shotty's play. It's possible there isn't, but that's why I'm asking all these strange questions. Including this one:

Are most SKs bulletproof?

If you see something I've missed or can explain anything better PLEASE point it out.

ETA: I'd like a claim from Peregrine too. Well, another one.

[Banshee]

Thanks, Jason!

Anyway, so my first read was correct on that and Junpei is the second kill (and last so far).

Anyone else have any better insights into this situation?

[Banshee]

One more thing before I forget it and then we can get back to the popcorn claim discussion.

MoI put up a vote count analysis and then was immediately nightkilled. The towniest person on his list (ZeL1nK) was the next person nightkilled, which lends credence to MoI's VCA imo.

Just something to keep in mind as the day progresses.

[Banshee]

Yes. I already said I wanted Peregrine first.

[Banshee]

You're Sydney Bristow of Alias?

Roleclaim?

[Banshee]

We're doing roleclaims too, not just name-claims, right?

[Banshee]

Mysterio has not posted anywhere since he's posted in this game.
Do we want to continue the claims without him or wait for him?

[Banshee]

I thought we were supposed to be quiet until the end of the popcorn claiming.

The presence of more scum PRs is becoming increasingly unlikely

Why do you think this?

[Banshee]

The unexplained kills indicate there is an unclaimed PR of some sort remaining out there.

[Banshee]

Mysterio has been prodded already.
I think he may have left the site though, which may mean we'll be stuck in limbo for a while.

[Banshee]

Aaaaarrrgh, why must people SiteFlake with letting anyone know?!?

Because if they let people know it wouldn't be flaking.

Do we want to finish the popcorn without him, or abandon it for now? It's going to be a while longer for a replacement since I think he has at least the rest of the day remaining on his 48 hour prod.

[Banshee]

Let's carry on the popcorn. Only two left anyway, aside from Mysterio.

Nero and Banshee, if I remember rightly.

Any preference on who goes first?

[Banshee]

I'm Cameron Phillips from The Sarah Connor Chronicles. I'm a Vanilla Townie.

[Banshee]

@Peregrine

: Any progress on the VCA?

[Banshee]

I still suspect Silver for the same reasons as before. Mysterio also makes sense given the nightkills, but I'm not sure scum would be that obvious in trying to save him given how useless he has mostly been in this game. Meh, he'd have to be a power role for them so maybe they would.

Not up for an Izak lynch, Meransiel. Fairly sure he's town.

[Banshee]

@Silver: I don't have sufficient experience with you as a player to answer the first one accurately. My impression is that you are lazy and willing to skate under the radar when it's possible, both traits I associate with scum regardless of their quality of play. To give credit where it's due, your play on day one was rather brilliant as a scum move since it made you look very town while you were also able to subtly slide out from delivering on your gambit.

As for the second, I was assessing that you were likely a goon. Do you want to claim a different role?

[Banshee]

I'm pretty confident in this vote:

VOTE: silverbullet999

[Banshee]

I'm only willing to lynch Silver, Peregrine or Mysterio today, with Mysterio a distant third because I don't think we can get any answers out of that slot until a replacement is found and so in effect we'd be lynching blind. I think he's probably scum based on the nightkills, but I can see the WIFOM there too so I am not especially confident that I'm right.

[Banshee]

@Peregrine:

You realise you brought up this VCA idea on August 31 of this year? That's almost two full weeks that we've been waiting for it including night phases. So no, it's a good bit more than four days on that.

As for the "Let's use all twenty days," I'm finding it REALLY HARD to give you the benefit of the doubt when you have managed only fifty posts since the game even began. It really seems like you want everyone to slow down and lose interest in the game.

tl;dr? POST MORE if you want the twenty days. Make actual contributions to the discussion besides your promised VCA. I'm not waiting around for twenty days twiddling my thumbs while you maintain radio silence and continue work on the Sistine Chapel of VCAs.

[Banshee]

@Peregrine:

The pace of the game largely determines the players' levels of interest in it. Fast-paced, exciting games hold the interest far better than slow-moving, inactive games. Lack of interest in a game usually translates into a scum win in my experience.

Do you disagree?

[Banshee]

This is exactly what I meant by stalling and dragging things out to try to make people lose interest in the game.

[Banshee]

@Meransiel:
I don't agree about Silver, I have seen scum post similar heartfelt attacks on people as WIFOM for their flip. "Oh, we can't lynch Meran and Mysterio because scum-Silver wanted us to!" And while I have day one reasons for thinking you're probably town, I still think Mysterio is likely scum. I just don't want to lynch him blind or without any chance to defend himself.

What are your thoughts on Peregrine's recent posts and/or lack thereof?

Why did you suggest an Izak lynch earlier?

[Banshee]

Since we've clearly got some time:

@Silver:

What's your case against Meransiel? What about Mysterio? Do you feel differently about Peregrine's probable alignment given the strange delaying tactics he appears to be practicing? Do you think meta is a good gauge of play in a specific game other than the general ability level?

Can you give an example of a completed game in which you "flipped out" as town?

[Banshee]

I was sure Silver was scum based on the things around Shotty and his overall play, so I'm sort of stuck right now.

From the opposite perspective, here are the things I think I know:

• Izak is town. I'm almost sure of this.
  Vezok is town based on his post right after Magna got killed. I don't think that was deliberate.
  David seems really town to me too.

That's four town (including me) that I am not voting for today and that I am sure aren't scum. I think there is probably a cult-flavoured vig on the scum side, though. That would come up non-goon and would explain the extra kills. I don't understand why we haven't seen any lately though.

My main suspicions are between Peregrine as this vig (Shotty trying to be clever?) and Meransiel because I am afraid I'm suffering from confirmation bias because I was so sure Meransiel wasn't scum based on behaviour at the start of the game. More or less null reads on Nero Cain and TheJakalope, though I agreed with Nero's logic a lot around the Silver issue which makes him seem townier to me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Peregrine is my top suspicion. I haven't liked the minimal posting style, the delays on promised material and the general attitude. Town should WANT to help town win, not act like they're doing us a big favour by offering content. I don't really know how to do a VCA or I'd do one for myself.

Actually, that just pinpointed what was bothering me. Peregrine isn't doing a VCA for himself to try to figure things out, he's doing one as a big favour for us. Why? I would be doing it for myself and THEN sharing it with others to try to figure things out; Peregrine is acting as if he's not even interested in figuring them out for himself, but only in helping us. That's plain weird to me.

I'm not voting him right now, but that's where my vote would land if I were going to vote right now.

[Banshee]

Town should WANT to help town win, not act like they're doing us a big favour by offering content.

So...I didn't WANT to help town when I didn't hammer someone I didn't think was scum?

You did actually read my post and note that I was talking about Peregrine and not you, yeah?

Really feeling unsure of my early town read on you at the moment. I don't regard OMGUS as a scumtell particularly but I'm surprised that you're engaging in it since I don't think it fits your general playstyle, at least in this game.

Meh, I'm not voting yet because I'm not sure enough of myself. I know there have to be at least two scum left and probably three (but not more than that or we'd all be dead already) and I'm sure one is a power role of some kind.

@Anyone

: Has anyone ever heard of a third-party X-shot vig? AKA an X-shot SK?

[Banshee]

@Izak

: I'm willing for a no-lynch, but then we're stuck tomorrow with what is probably the same problem, so we HAVE to try to figure this out now even if we do go for a no-lynch. Once we agree to a no-lynch everyone is probably going to stop posting and arguing and then we won't learn anything else after that imo.

It's late, and I'm not sure I'm making sense here. But if we don't at least make progress in narrowing things down today then I don't think a no-lynch will help us all that much. I think it's too early to start with that right now.

[Banshee]

I need answers to a few questions before I'm sure about voting.

@Meransiel:

I didn't really understand what changed your mind so radically between (forgive the bad paraphrasing, this is just how I remember it): "I'm bored and screw you guys I don't want to wait for the VCA, let's lynch and I got the hammer" to "No, Silver is obvtown! We must stop!" I didn't see whatever it was you saw in his posts; to me it just looked like the typical WIFOM things scum throw out before death to me. Was it really just the threat to you?

Also, you didn't really answer about what you thought of Peregrine (or I missed it, which is possible). Can you answer that now please?

@Peregrine:

Did you ever complete the VCA? Do you feel you learned anything useful from it, if so?

@Izak:

Why would Mysterio have been a policy lynch? Lurking?

[Banshee]

@Izak: I don't know. I was guessing that it was because he was the last potential town PR.

I looked at the GoogleDoc but I didn't understand it. It looked just like raw data with no organization or explanation to me.

[Banshee]

You did actually read my post and note that I was talking about Peregrine and not you, yeah?

From this, I'm getting the distinct impression that you are actually trying to make me look worse, instead of figuring out if I'm scum, and that you're not bothering to read my posts. I KNOW that was at Pere, but I am your second suspect, and I was calling you out for hypocrisy for giving a reason why he was scum, while at the same time not mentioning anything about how, by that same reason, I was less likely scum.

The quote you pulled out had nothing to do with you. I had already indicated I didn't want to vote you and that I was afraid I was suffering from confirmation bias in your case, which I KNOW is a problem I have and that I'm trying to work on. What you're insisting I should have done is the equivalent of saying, "Peregrine promised us content and then it was like pulling teeth to get any out of him, but that's not true of YOU, Meransiel, or YOU, Izak, or YOU, David, or YOU, etc, etc..." If I didn't say it about you then it probably doesn't apply to you; you didn't promise content at all so far as I know. Not promising content and then not delivering it is a nulltell quite literally. It is the absence of a tell. It reflects neither poorly nor well on you.

Am I missing your point somehow? What is it you think I should have said about you in this regard?

I'm not voting him BECAUSE he is voting me, I am voting him for the REASON why he is voting me. Stop defending the guy unless you have actual proof.

Fair enough, but it didn't really look like that. I think David X is town, but it's just my opinion.

@Meransiel:

I didn't really understand what changed your mind so radically between (forgive the bad paraphrasing, this is just how I remember it): "I'm bored and screw you guys I don't want to wait for the VCA, let's lynch and I got the hammer" to "No, Silver is obvtown! We must stop!" I didn't see whatever it was you saw in his posts; to me it just looked like the typical WIFOM things scum throw out before death to me. Was it really just the threat to you?

I have already explained why twice,

stop saying that I haven't

. It's all about utilitarianism and foresight. A scum that can no longer save himself knows that everything he says will be taken as bullshit the following day. A townie knows that with him, the exact opposite will happen. So YES, by what I was doing, I was protecting myself. But I was also protecting silver, who to me looked like genuinely planning out the next day with knowledge of himself flipping town.

I said that I didn't understand you, not that you hadn't explained. I NEVER said that you had not explained. I wanted a more detailed explanation. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't misrepresent my statements in this manner if you are not scum, because I DON'T WANT TO MISLYNCH TODAY.

Are you aware that your playstyle has radically changed since Silver made that statement/threat? Like, 180 degrees of difference? For me, it's that change that has made me question my read of you as town, not your refusal to hammer, which I can somewhat understand.

By the way, no lynch is a horrible idea. Neither me, nor David, nor Pere are going to die, so there's no gain from it.

I will take your word for it. I don't see the point of no-lynches anyway because it just gives the scum a free kill imo but I know they're supposed to be necessary sometimes. I'm just not sure when those times are.

I STILL think Peregrine is more likely to be scum than you are. You have that day one town cred that I STILL think is valid and Peregrine doesn't have any of that. He had some good will over the promised VCA but the whole behaviour surrounding it and the constant delays has completely destroyed that for me.

[Banshee]

Here you're making a specification that you didn't make in the first post (I was not comparing the providing of contect required from the two of us. If I didn't clarify that well enough, then I am sorry). Call it taking out of context, but I was pressing on the "Town should WANT to help town win". Because it fit with my decision to not hammer anymore. I am actually going to, after this game ends, go to Mafia Discussion and post a thread named "When Town should vote/hammer someone regardless of their reads on him", giving this game as an example.

Theoretical discussions aside, you still have not answered what I should have said about you in this case. I was not talking about you. Are you actually suggesting I should have stated that "Town should WANT to help town win, like MERANSIEL does?" RLY? SRSLY? I have no clue what you think I should have said here.

Can you please explain how so?

Because David threw a fit at you which I didn't agree with (ESPECIALLY since it was wrong and I was wrong too) and then you voted him right back. I don't think it's scummy, I just think it's weird given your previous play. If you had a reason other than not liking him accusing you, it wasn't evident to me and I didn't give a lot of credence to the "I don't like the WAY he accused me" because I've heard scum AND town say that before when OMGUSing and I'm sure everyone else has too.

But since my wincon is "lynch all scum" and not "allow people to have erroneous opinions out of politeness", it's up to me to convince you that he's scum. To start it off, why do you think he's town?

You know better than this. I can't prove a negative. You even say so yourself later on about Peregrine, that you don't think that makes him not town. You didn't give awesome evidence that he's town. In short, I don't think David has done anything scummy. He thinks you're scum, I didn't consider you very likely scum until you started misrepresenting me left and right in what looks like a panic.

This is a vastly different approach compared to how you actually asked me.

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

Yes, I can see how you'd find that a horrible horrible accusation that you're scummy and terrible. Because I don't think that's a good enough reason to vote you. Because I wanted you to explain more rather than just sheeping a vote on you I wasn't really agreeing with. HOW is that vastly different?

Memory slipping....I can't really say right now if this is a lie or not, but as I recount you called me scummy for not hammering before I started playing differently. I will check and get back to this in a couple minutes.

One sentence posts with no justification and no intent to give any suddenly shifted to long multi-quote posts BEFORE I said I wanted you to explain. Before that? I was asking you directly and asking for more clarity and really not getting it. So you were wrong here. Just admit it, they can read it for themselves anyway.

And then mischaracterising the entire tone of the post you quoted...

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver. I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

That's me saying I don't wanna vote you for not hammering Silver. You GET THAT, right? So how is it fence sitting and expressing suspicion all at once in a lovely scumtastic ball?

And hey, I'm Banshee. As Jason pointed out, Beck isn't even IN this game.

[Banshee]

I don't think not hammering was scummy. I stand by that.

You're right that I can't justify my town reads on Izak or David as anything but gut, but I do feel like they see things the same way I do and that probably does make me think they're town.

Wait, so saying that whether you will vote or not vote someone depends on how he responds to a question, then not liking the answer, then STILL not voting said person is NOT fencesitting? Either I've been living under a rock, or you're just the kind of person who never admits being wrong. Cause screaming "misrepresentation! mischaracterisation! panic!" is much, MUCH easier.

You are misrepresenting me even in this very quote, and I'm about to show you exactly how. And yeah, I already admitted to confirmation bias, but I think you've completely misunderstood (deliberately or otherwise) what I said in the quote you keep throwing up like it proves something. Oh, and can you please point me to where I said that my vote depended on your answer to that question?

I do not understand how you can really misunderstand my intent in that quote so completely, but for clarification, here is what I was thinking at the time (as best that I can recall).

Meh, I want Meransiel to explain why he backed off so hard from Silver.

I don't like this whole thing blowing up because I think both David and Meransiel are town and if they blow up at each other then we'll never figure this out. So Meransiel needs to explain this better so we don't have a stupid town-town argument.

I don't want to vote him without better reasons than I see right now.

If this Silver no-hammer thing is all you have then that isn't good enough. I still think he's town. I want to talk about Peregrine because I think HE is scum. And I think he's probably laughing at us right now.

So you have a huge issue with me saying that, which is how I think ANY REASONABLE person would have interpreted it? (If I'm wrong, I want to hear about it, so opinions are welcome.)

[Banshee]

The point is that it is for me, and I mentioned it so we wouldn't be so quick to lynch. I find that scum gets jittery near the endgame and likes to keep the fast day1 pace of lynch and go. This of course leads to their win. Town wants to slow it down and talk.

The last line appeals to me. I'd love to slow it down and talk, hence my lack of vote during this day. My problem with YOU and with several other people is that you want to slow it down, but you DON'T want to talk. You want others to talk while you lurk and don't post and take a few days off to think things over and make a VCA that no one else can understand and that you now say is just for your own use so it doesn't matter if we don't understand it.

That's not town wanting to slow it down and talk. That's [undefined] wanting to slow it down and lurk.

I see a pretty big difference.

[Banshee]

and speaking of which,

@MOD:

Can you please prod TheJakalope?

[Banshee]

@Meransiel:

I am not really sure why I apparently have all this townie cred since I've been wrong just as much as anyone else if not more so. So I hadn't considered that anyone would want to sheep me for town cred. That said, I know David had said a few things that I had agreed with (though I'm not going to guarantee he wasn't sheeping someone else on them) and I think that he'd said them before I'd said anything.

I'm going to do a reread on David, Izak, TheJakalope (there's someone else and i can't remember who at the moment and look for the reasons I had those reads on them (and try to figure out one for TheJakalope). This weekend may be busy for me but I'm going to do my best to get those up soon. I do have a method for this that involves ISOs AND a full reread so if anyone wants the same treatment for someone else please let me know ASAP and I can include them too.

Use FoSes or call it a TEMP VOTE, so intentions are clear before we do damage that can't be undone.

I support and/or endorse this good and/or service.

[Banshee]

I'm still in the middle of doing an annoying long reread and looking for connections and trying to rethink this game from the beginning, but I have been keeping up with recent posts and I want to point out a couple of things.

• 1. Shotty's play was far from optimal. It was erratic and I think it's a mistake to believe anything material could be derived from it. I tend to think Peregrine is a scum vig because I can find no precedent for an X-shot SK. I think that Shotty probably tried to bus badly. I could be wrong about this, though, so I want to err on the side of caution.
  
  2. Meransiel's play day one does not come from scum. It makes no sense, especially since I pushed him on it at the time and he didn't react in a scummy way. I do NOT want to vote Meransiel today. I think he's wrong on Peregrine and I think he's wrong on David (though I'm not done with my reread) but I do NOT think he's scum.
  
  3. I'm unhappy on an initial read with both Peregrine and TheJakalope. Both have been minimal contributors; while Peregrine did rock the boat at times, Chevre never did and TheJakalope seems to be going along with that trend.
  

IF Meransiel is correct and there are two scum left plus Peregrine-SK, I would prefer to lynch TheJakalope over Meransiel as I believe there's a significantly higher chance that TheJakalope AKA Chevre is scum as opposed to Meransiel. I'm not lynching Izak, David or Meransiel today regardless.

[Banshee]

@Banshee: All I am saying is that Pere is 100% not mafia. I would be surprised if he was town, but not shocked. And we SHOULD concentrate on mafia and only on mafia.

A Jakalope lynch sounds like a wildcard that can go both ways, so I'm not really sure what to think.

I disagree with you. Based on Shotty's play (and I don't think you've really looked at HOW bad it was with the recent cardflips) Peregrine could very easily be a Scum X-shot vig. At the point at which Shotty began throwing this suspicion, there was heavy suspicion on Shotty himself. He could have been trying to gain town cred by bussing one of his own, or he could have been trying to muddy the waters considering that he was likely to go down that day or the next.

Peregrine remains my top lynch wish because I DO think he's an X-shot scum vig. I don't see ANY evidence that there is even an X-shot SK role or ever has been, and I think it would be horrifically imbalanced UNLESS Peregrine can win with town or scum by surviving. I can see the role working from a balance perspective in that case, but I still have NEVER seen one. Scum vigs are apparently quite common, though.

Given the general level of Shotty's play, he may have thought that Peregrine had been outed by one of the town powerroles and might have been trying to exonerate Peregrine by saying, "See, he's just an SK! Don't worry! No need to lynch!"

That's given the assumption that Shotty was thinking anything at all. I don't see much evidence of thinking in his overall play, tbh.

Stating flatly that Peregrine is not scum is not justified. You may be right, but it's by no means 100% as you're trying to portray it. That doesn't make him 100% scum either. It just means you're making an assumption based on facts not in evidence.

[Banshee]

My impression of Shotty's play is apparently diametrically opposite to yours.

This is, after all, the player who called Silver a Jailkeeper, then called him scum. He couldn't keep the role he had straight or who he'd investigated or the number of investigations he'd had so far. It's not a stretch imo to say he could have invented a role for Peregrine and thought it would keep him safer for longer in the game.

And I am not pushing a TheJakalope lynch except in preference to the three people I listed in my last post. I still prefer the Peregrine lynch. I just think he's more likely to be scum than you are based on previous play. I'm watching his contribution level now along with Peregrine's. I don't really believe in lurker lynches but at a certain point in the game lurking becomes both obvious and scummy, so I'm watching it.

[Banshee]

@Everyone- How does anyone know whether it's lylo or mylo at all? I've asked how many scum are left, but nobody answers. I expect scum not to say, but guessing at roles without guessing numbers? Is it 2, 3, 4, or 5? And why do you think so?

I thought I already answered, but I think there are three scum left in one team. There may be only two but MoI was postulating many more than could possibly be true right now. I want to err on the maximum caution side and say three because we don't KNOW there aren't three. If there are only two, yay. But we can't know that. Three is the most there can be of SCUM. The SK thing I don't think can be true because as I've repeatedly said I can't find one single instance of an X-shot SK. So my final answer is, there are three scum total in one scumgroup and one is an X-shot vig.

Please tear apart the logic if I'm obviously wrong.

[Banshee]

Um, no?
I think there was ONLY ever one scumgroup.

I think there are three people left on it.

Where did you get what you said from what I wrote?

[Banshee]

• If you had to lynch someone right now, who would it be, and why? - If I was forced to make a lynch right now, I would pick Pere, just because he's 95% confanti Town, but I'd much rather lynch scum.
• Do you think PeregrineV is a Serial Killer? If not, what do you read him as? - Yes, scum.
• You've been very neutral throughout this game, which I find quite troubling. Can you provide a list of your reads on all players? - Hmm..

Not a tons of great reads, but one thing I will say is that David X is looking quite scummy. Not going to vote until I'm very sure of my reads though.

Scumdar
PeregrineV - 8/10
Meransiel - 6/10
vezokpiraka - 6/10
Nero Cain - 6/10
izak - 5/10
Banshee - 4/10

David Xanatos - 3/10

I will post more in depth reads later tonight or at the latest tomorrow.

Ouch. In one day from scummy to most town, that's quite an achievement.

[Banshee]

VOTE: PeregrineV

[Banshee]

I'm not a blonde. Don't really care if you think I am. It's a dumb ad hominem attack though, since it has nothing to do with the game

[Banshee]

YEAH SILVER STOP ATTACKING BANSHEE WITH THINGS THAT ARE NOT GAME RELATED!

Okay, this made me giggle

I love your sig, btw

[Banshee]

I remember identifying Pinky and the Brain, killerjester and chkballin as dangerous during my first read of the game. Some of their commentary seemed awfully insightful and I was very glad when those three were out of the game.

The hydras thing made it difficult to get a read on the actual opinions of some of the players. This was my first game with hydras, so it was a really good learning experience and I feel ESPECIALLY lucky to have had such talented and competent scumbuddies to play with.

[Banshee]

That reminds me. I'm never ever ever ever doing a hydra with a stranger...

I hope you used protection at least.

[Banshee]

In all honesty, and not to hurt anyone's feelings, I think that Rodion's modkill was the actual turning point of the game and past that point, there really wasn't any way that town could feasibly win. It tipped the balance too far in our favour and after that it was pretty much inevitable as long as we didn't mess up too badly.

I grouched at Shotty a lot in our private talk, but his play actually helped us incredibly, as did the way that we were able to use the information he fed us. Andrew gave us tons of information on the other neighbourhood and helped us identify who we needed to kill. Oversoul gave the scum a lot of town cred from bussing him and the Jack of All Trades thing really confused people for a while. And of course Nero and David were brilliant and managed what I consider near perfect games for scum.

But it was Rodion's modkill that threw off the whole balance of the game for town and allowed us to capitalise on the situation to the degree that we could. I screwed up several times and I really didn't want to lynch Silver so soon, but it turned out okay in the end.

I still don't know why people thought I was so town though. One of life's unexplained mysteries

[Banshee]

I'm sad to remove this from my bookmarks.

Thanks to everyone for a great game.

[Banshee]

Ooooh, one more thing...

Jason, how much did you love us for killing Mysterio so you didn't have to replace him? Be honest, game's over now

[Banshee]

We were trying to be considerate and nice. Rehabilitating the scum image of cold ruthless heartless killers.

But then we killed a bunch of people and it sort of ruined the effect

[Banshee]

I don't know what a policy kill is.

We actually did just do it to be nice and help speed the game along.

[Banshee]

just wanted to say that i did suggest to invite my own scum buddies into the neighbourhood but nobody volunteered.
instead they chanted 'junpei junpei'

At the point you suggested inviting one of us, MoI had already outed you as the scum neighbouriser and including any of us would have put a huge target on whoever you put into the QT. Also, you suggested Junpei if I recall correctly, and we agreed to it. Not the reverse.