Mini 304: This is NOT Any Kind of Mafia (Mod Abandoned)

[EmpTyger]

I don't have a protown role.

[EmpTyger]

/confirm

[EmpTyger]

If we're starting in Day, then random

Vote: rajrhcpfreak

.
If we're starting in Night, then random

Kill: rajrhcpfreak

.

[EmpTyger]

Apparently my vote in [35] wasn’t taken seriously by the mod; probably for the best, I suppose, given the date. Lest potential ambiguity remain:

Unvote: rajrhcpfreak

.


Drummer:
You seem a little too careful to justify each of your votes, and [65] seems too expository. Call it an uneasy suspicion…


Adele:
I don’t want to imply that I like crop’s selfvote- ordinary I strongly agree with Adele’s sentiment in [46]- but given the holiday, the theme, *and* the fact that it’s early in Day 1, I’m overlooking it. I’m assuming the town got burned in a recent game of yours?


Tamuz:

<snip>And I vote for raj because he is supporting adele but swinging at another person. He is in one hand holding her statement up, but with the other undercutting it by not bandwagoning crop as he should be with a statement such as "bandwagoners should die". It is very interesting that he votes Vitamin R rather than crop, and I think it is scummy to boot.<snip>

[68] threw me off a bit too, for awhile, and I’d like to here more from rajrhcpfreak about it. Actually, I’m finding it more interesting that crop legitimized the pattern in [69].


rajrhcpfreak:
[see above]

[EmpTyger]

Drummer:
Figured out what I don’t like about [65]. You seem to be trying to subtly force someone else to put a vote onto cropcircles. All the while hedging yourself in [70]: voting him to put yourself early onto his bandwagon, with your exact reasoning noncommittal. This seems to be your play- subtly pushing bandwagons without committing yourself to anything. I don’t like it.

Vote: Drummer

.

And “I do not feel that the self-votes are really all that against the idea of mafia”? The idea of mafia is to kill people of the opposite alignment. A player voting for themself is quite clearly not adhering to that.


VitaminR and cropcircles:
A random vote might tell little, but it does tell something. A selfvote has no value, since the player is obviously not truly valuing the vote (ie: they do not intend to lynch themselves). A random vote may or may not spark discussion, but if so, it will be based on content relevant to the game. The discussion sparked from the selfvote is based on metagame principles. I most *strongly* disagree with selfvoting. I have already explained why I am making an exception in this specific instance.


Jecht:

<snip>Stay away from controversy? What, you mean like half-fos-ing people and not have the spine to bold it?

Your accusation is rather ironic; you only thing you post there is something the person right above you just said, only weaker.


Adele:

<snip>No, not really. I've just seen selfvotes several times - both in place of a random vote and in a petulant fit when subject of a bandwagon - and I see them as intrinsically anti-town behaviour (much like lying or lurking). And I'm acting from that perspective from here on in, no exceptions.<snip>

Again, in general, I don’t disagree. And, I mean, it’s not like you didn’t give a warning. I just wanted to better understand the vehemence.


rajrhcpfreak:
You know, I actually understand your point. But as much as I’d agree with metagaming selfvoting, I’d much rather metagame poor sportsmanship. So, reading [94], I’m not really feeling like posting the defense I typed up for you. Maybe later.

[EmpTyger]

I *really* hate when I get a strong feeling about a player Day 1, and then someone all acts up in an impossible to ignore manner. I have just stumbled through an amazingly bad week, and am in no state of mind to evaluate ryan vs. Drummer right now, so

Unvote: Drummer

until I better figure things out.

[EmpTyger]

Adele:
I really don’t like how you ignored people asking you about your reaction in [126]. Not sure what to think about your interaction with ryan.


micigante:

rajrhcpfreak:
You know, I actually understand your point. But as much as I’d agree with metagaming selfvoting, I’d much rather metagame poor sportsmanship. So, reading [94], I’m not really feeling like posting the defense I typed up for you. Maybe later.

I really would like to see that defence...

I kind of understand where rajrhcpfreak coming from with this. Let’s say there’s a behavior that is disliked for a metagame reason. If the behavior is voted whenever it is done, eventually the negative reinforcement will stop it. This is essentially the reasoning behind lynch-all-liars. However- this only works if everyone else consents. Let’s say A is doing the behavior, but B is encouraging it. B thus in this sense is encouraging antitown behavior. In some respects, this is more suspicious than A’s actual behavior, if A behaves thusly independent of alignment.


Drummer:
In a previous game I ignored my initial feelings to go after lynchbait, to my detriment.

Vote: Drummer

. I don’t feel strongly enough about any other right now to be doubting myself again.


ryan:
Which is not to say I like your play, in particular this:

<snip>I'm going to go ahead and Unvote and lay low a little to see what some other people think.

[EmpTyger]

Eh. I'm the Taco Liberty Bell. I'm pro-Town. I have no powers.

Liar.

Unvote: Drummer, Vote: ryanjunk

[EmpTyger]

Jecht:

Eh. I'm the Taco Liberty Bell. I'm pro-Town. I have no powers.

Liar.

Unvote: Drummer, Vote: ryanjunk

I think I see what's going on here. You have a second part to that, yeah? Don't mention what it is, but there's an extra bit on the end, right?

Temporary

Unvote: ryanjunk

. I think the best thing may be for me to *partially* claim at this point; can you think of any reason for me not to? I'm starting to get a really bad feeling about things...

[EmpTyger]

Jecht:
I need to make sure we're talking about the same thing: Before you read my [176], did you have the *exact* same *immediate* reaction to [174]?

[EmpTyger]

Jecht:
I need to know for sure whether you are counterclaiming ryan. What you were worried about will not be a concern.

[EmpTyger]

It’s hard to be sure of anything in this game, but I have a very good reason to believe that not everyone is named a Taco Liberty Bell, and I don’t think it’s simply a correlation with alignment. I think would be extremely valuable to have everyone claim “TLB” or “not TLB”. Do not claim *anything* else.

[EmpTyger]

Drummer:

Vote: Drummer

. Replacing my pre-TLB-hullabaloo vote on you. And furthermore, ryan is absolutely the wrong lynch, because he *cannot* be mafia- there’s no way that he’d claim LTB with his comafia *also* TLB. The instant one of them died, ryan would be exposed; from his point of view, he had no way of knowing that protowns would also be TLB. And anyway, I personally don’t care for lynching vanillas D1 for the sake of being vanilla.


VitaminR and Bacde:
As above, about ryan. This is not a good lynch.


Adele:
I don’t want to make any assumptions with rajrhcpfreak and micigante having not indicated. Are you TLB?


Tamuz:
In retrospect, [175] seems to look like you were trying to sit back while ryan got lynched.

[EmpTyger]

Adele:
I hate to ask for this this blindly, but trust me for now. I will explain more in or near twilight.


micigante’s replacement:
Still want to make sure: are you TLB or non-TLB?

[EmpTyger]

To those thinking that the mafia might have been given TLB as a safe claim:
Why on earth would the mod do that in *this* game?

By the dawn of Day 2 they’d know what was afoot either way, from the corpses. So they’d have a safe claim by then at the latest; and more likely sooner, as shown by what happened in the first bandwagon today. So would the mod, in *this* game, ruin his little prank by cluing the mafia in to it just to give the mafia such a minuscule short-term benefit? It makes no sense.


Yosarian:
I knew that a non-TLB role existed before one was called out. (Well, honestly, I strongly suspected; I was half-wondering whether the mod had set up a personal surprise in all this.) But it would be counterproductive for me to say more just yet. So I’m not going to, until I feel it is right. Just like I said as much as I did when I did.

I am only doublechecking about micigante because I wanted to make sure that Adele wasn’t playing the odds with only one left to indicate. [nice try, Bacde]

(As for what you said earlier, I don’t think it’s relevant…)

[EmpTyger]

<snip>When are we gonna get back to playing the game and, like, get less confusing?

This game? I doubt *that's* going to have. In any case, I still have a vote on Drummer I like.


Jecht:

Unless you guys are talking about a

particular

non-TLB role that I don't have...

Yes.

Erm... are we talking about the same thing? (Either way, you probably shouldn't answer this. But keep it in mind.)

[EmpTyger]

Tamuz:
It’s Day 1, in a game starting in daytime: I’m not sure discussion about flavor should be quickly dismissed as irrelevant. Though to be honest, I have nothing besides that at the moment other than my feelings about Drummer. I’ll do a reread later and see if I find anything else.


Yosarian:
I really have an odd feeling about how discouraging you have been about the TLB issue. You seem awfully sure that it can’t be helpful for the town. At the very least I would like an explanation for why you referred to LTB rather than TLB in [197].

<snip>There's no reason the mod wouldn't tell the scum "Oh, and by the way, here is one safe claim: feel free to claim "taco liberty bell"" without telling them anything more. In fact, I would expect it, or something like it; no reason for the mod's april fool's joke to randomally kill a scum just because he didn't know about it.

Just so I understand: you were thinking that the mafia aren’t TLB, but were given that as a safe claim?

[EmpTyger]

I have a very busy couple of days ahead of me, and cannot guarantee I will have time to post. Things should be better Thursday. Sorry. (Mod, replace if you feel necessary.)

[EmpTyger]

The reason I knew about the nonTLB role is that someone is seeking someone. The player relevant to what I am speaking of should be able to figure out what to do tonight. Remember the theme. I think it will be obvious by tomorrow morning, so don't wait until then.

[EmpTyger]

One more thing- depending on if and how VitaminR is revealed to be guilty, my defense of ryan might need to be voided. Should I die before then, rescrunitize him for the Day 3 lynch.

[EmpTyger]

Something is very weird about this game. Checking something with the mod.

[EmpTyger]

I have a very strong reason to believe that VitaminR was speaking the truth and protown. Add to that the fact that we had no nightkills, and I think the town is facing a cult. Which is not to say that we don’t have any other antitown groups. No nightkills is too convenient, so I see 2 possibilities: doctor protection or roleblocking. Does anyone have any objections to a roleblocker coming forward?


Adele:
As I said above, I’m rather sure about VitaminR. So I’m having a hard time reconciling that with your “100% guilty”.

Vote: Adele

.


Drummer:
Regarding my feeling from yesterday: I’m still not convinced that you aren’t mafia (to say nothing of the possibilities involving a cult) but overnight I rethought my uneasiness, and I do not think you are worth pursuing right now.

[EmpTyger]

I have several reasons for believing VitaminR was telling the truth. One of them is basic logic. If VitaminR were a non-cult antitown, then his claim was foolish: it would be revealed as bogus in an endgame if no cult had been discovered at that point. Likewise, if he were cult, why clue the town in to the fact that the game had a cult so early? He claimed when Adele stated she was only 85% sure.

I fail to see strong evidence that VitaminR lied. Unless someone can tell me definitively what a cross-cultifier is, I’m not sure that it might not be a paraphrased de-cultifier. Another possibility is that something happened overnight, between death and role reveal.

I have several reasons for believing we don’t just have a cult. One of them is basic math. Let’s say we had just a 1 person cult. Well, then, either Adele is lying (and we should lynch her) or it was VitaminR (in which case the game should have ended already). So if there’s just a cult, we’ve got at least a 2 person cult. Which easily can be overpowered for a minigame, to the point where Day 1 could have been lynch-or-lose.

I have only one reason for wanting the roleblocker to come forward. It has nothing to do with knowledge of the setup. I think that it is likely that the roleblocker targeted a nightkiller; and I think that this knowledge is not worth risking losing just for the chance of the roleblocker getting lucky twice. And with the overlapping possibilities of recruitment, nightkills, and protection, I don’t think that the fact that the roleblocker might be exposed would necessarily be a worry.

And let me repeat, the above are not my only reasons. I merely choose not to state all of them at this time.

[EmpTyger]

This all seems to mostly come down to not knowing what the heck Vit's role meant:

Unless someone can tell me definitively what a cross-cultifier is

I don't know whether the mod'll tell us, but why not ask?

Mod

, can you tell us what a cross-cultifier

does

?

No harm no foul if he decides not to tell us, I guess.

<shrug> Go for it, but I seriously doubt it’ll be that easy. Meanwhile, now what do people (particularly Bacde, who in [364] was so opposed) think about a roleblocker coming forwards?

[EmpTyger]

Adele:

I'm against the roleblocker claiming. It's a small lead in exchange for a medium-sized pro-town role. And Emptyger's just looking weirder and weirder to me. A lot of your logic I just don't follow at all.

Unvote Drummer

although

IGMEOY

, and

Vote: Emptyger

- I hope the various reasons are sufficiently clear?

No- they’re not. Be specific; what don’t you follow of my logic?

Let me make it simpler. 2 questions for you:
1) Do you believe that we still have a cult?
2a) [If “no” to (1)] What happened to the nightkill last night?
2b) [If “yes” to (1)] Who do you think was recruited last night?


ryan:
1) Do you believe that we still have a cult?
2a) [If “no” to (1)] What happened to the nightkill last night?
2b) [If “yes” to (1)] Who do you think was recruited last night?


Yosarian:

<snip>I'm not sure I get your math here. Hypothetically, say there is a cult with one recruiter and one "cross-cultifier" or whatever at the start of the game. How would day 1 be lynch or lose? With the game starting in day, the cult would have at most 3 people day 2, if their recruitment suceeded and none of them got lynched or nightkilled.

I was assuming that, analogous to mafia operations, the cult would get a recruit action, rather than only a specific cult member(s). Reevaluating, imposing some restrictions on who could recruit might allow a more balanced setup. However, the game still seems like it could too easily become too dependent on nightabilities; the town can’t race recruitment effectively if every cult member lynched can be replaced through recruitment the following night.


Jecht:

Indeed. Well, in theory I'm in favour of hearing the roleblocker's target.

In practice I'm paranoid that he blocked a townie and a doc saved someone.

This very well might have happened. But then even in this case there is a doctor who can protect the exposed roleblocker. Note that it is not necessary that this be followed by a lynch of the roleblocker’s Night 1 target today; however I do not think that this knowledge should risk being lost if the roleblocker were to die overnight.


rajrhcpfreak

<snip>a game like this might require someone to lie.

It’s not as simple as that, at least not in a game like this


cropcircles[/replacement?]:
I’m realizing that there’s another possibility for why there was no nightkill last night…

[EmpTyger]

There are 2 issues here. 1 is that I don’t trust Adele. 2 is that I think that the roleblocker should announce their Night 1 target.

1) I don’t trust Adele.
I think VitaminR was innocent. I think that she was the most likely target to have been recruited Night 1. I do not like how she has acted today, first trying to pick up where I left off on Drummer, then blustering vaguely about why a roleblocker coming forwards would be wrong. Finally, I am wary of how confidently she is playing.

2) The roleblocker should come forwards.
The lack of a nightkill last night was either due to cropcircles’s not being replaced, successful protection, or a successful roleblock. If the first, then we know all we ever need to know about that. If the second, clearly there is no reason for a protective role to expose themself at this point with merely a speculative innocent. But if the third case, our roleblocker may have identified an antitown, and we risk losing this knowledge if not shared immediately.

And the roleblocker need not be exposed. For example, temporarily assume that there is a mafia, a cult, and a doctor. Then the roleblocker will be protected: The cult doesn’t want to recruit the roleblocker if the mafia kills them; the mafia doesn’t want to kill them if the doctor protects them; the doctor doesn’t want to protect them if the cult recruits them. Not that this is the situation; but any antitown groups will not know the situation.

Again, we do not need to act on the information until later. But I do not see how this information should not be put forward.


Yosarian:
I am *not* arguing that we can’t have a cult. I am arguing that the cult cannot be the only antitown faction.


Adele:

Wow. I really don't like the smell of this. You have been digging and baiting for info too hard and for too long. Fine, I'll bit, this time, but don't expect me to be so responsive in the future. I don't trust you in the slightest.

“digging and baiting”? On the contrary: as it happened the 2 people who I’ve posed my questions to- you and ryan- happen to be the 2 people who cannot possibly be responsible for the missed nightkill!

<snip>2a) [due to possibility] Wasn't sent in, or was doc protected or was roleblocked or they didn't meet a necessary PR or something. Really couldn't say

This is a game of deduction. Of course you’re not going to have all the information. I should have phrased 2a “What do you think happened to the nightkill…” but that is just semantics.

2b) [probable] I really really couldn't say! How do you expect me to guess? Answer: you don't; you can't possibly. You're clearly either holding out ridiculous hope that I'm anti-town and completely moronic enough that I'll slip useful information, or you're scum. The latter seems more plausible.<snip>

That’s hardly saying anything. You just presented this as a choice between (Adele being antitown) or (Tyger is antitown); *obviously* you’re going to find the latter more plausible. It’s not that dichotomous; the motive that you omitted is that while I suspected that you were the cult’s choice to recruit, I was unable to dismiss the possibility that ryan was, and wished to see how you each reacted.

I mean, what if you are scum who knows that your victim was saved by the doc?

This is clearly not the case. Temporarily assuming it- which is ridiculous, incidentally, for scum to have such knowledge, but evenso- then there definitely exists a doctor, who would be able to protect the exposed roleblocker. Moreover, if I were scum and my victim somehow survived, I do not see how you would believe that I would be asking for a roleblocker- who just as easily could have targeted me to prevent the nightkill- to name their target!

[EmpTyger]

Jecht:
You really think Tamuz has a post restriction?

[EmpTyger]

Sorry, things are a bit hectic for me IRL at the moment. Will be more active soon.

[EmpTyger]

Emp, I be£ieve things are hectic for everyone right now. Peop£e in my position, seniors are dea£ing with: end of schoo£, AP tests, co££ege preping, Prep for an insane £ast summer with a££ friends, Prom.

Co££ege students have fina£s. Thoth has the kid. Everyone is busy and thought in this game is hard because we have nothing so£id.
<snip>

Looks like the mod is likewise busy: I had sent a PM last Wed. that still is in my outbox. And since we are waiting on a replacement anyhow...

Incidentally, concur on annoying.

[EmpTyger]

Still /in

[EmpTyger]

Rethinking this- I'm qualifying my vote with "only if rajrhcpfreak gets the full setup from inHim"

[EmpTyger]

Adele:
Actually, I was on to you before VitaminR’s role was revealed. My role *exactly* paralleled VitaminR’s, only for SK instead of cult:

Taco Liberty Bell - Psychiatrist - it takes a hoax to know a hoax, and you're tracking down a serial killer! Send me a choice each night, in hopes to catch and cure this hoax gone wrong.

It paralleled down to the idea of him thinking he might have been cult himself: I thought I might have been a SK. Which was why I played Day 1 so quirkily: I was afraid I might discover I *was* a SK and needed to leave myself wiggle room, but at the same time needed to preserve play if I were indeed genuinely innocent. When you said that VitaminR was 100% scum, I concluded that either I was also, or you were lying. Well, my nighttarget (Drummer) lived through the night and I got an innocent result on him, and I didn’t figure him to have been a likely target for a doctor. I was hoping to draw out the presumed SK before I came forward. But I was certain at that point that you were lying, and the fact that you were the most likely cult recruitment target after Day 1 made me feel all the more confident about your lynch.

Bah. First abandoned game