The Invincible Man

[Cadmium]

Giving it to a mafia member could be royally unfair in a game with vigs, as it could make the vig useless.

I have to disagree. When a vigilante tries to kill this mafia member and it fails, it could mean that a doc protected the target OR that the target is immune to night kills and possibly mafia.

In Full Communication mafia, I was the godfather and immune to night kills. I believe that Dragon Slayer was a vigilante and he tried to kill me one night. Of cource, I did not die. They asked me to explain the next day. I made something up about being able to protect myself. They didn't buy it and lynched me.

So instead of killing someone that night, the vigilante becomes some kind of a cop.

[Cadmium]

Take the end game I was once in. Night: Me=mafia, X=townie, Y=townie with bullet proof vest (permanant invincible to kill)

I could not win. It was impossible. I thought I had it in the bag. Y actually made a comment that indicated that I should kill him, so I killed the other and it was drawn. I found out after the game that Y had the vest.

That's exactly why I think the bullet proof vest is never a good idea to have in a game. The player having the vest could come out the very first day. If the mafia doesn't do anything, there's one confirmed innocent who won't be lynched or killed the rest of the game, resulting in a tie at least. So the mafia has to do something. The only thing they can do, is claiming the same thing. When this happens, the town lynches one of them. If they are right, they have found a mafia, the vest is out in the open and again the game results in a tie at least. If they are wrong, the vest is out of the game, but they still have found a mafia member. This role is really not adding anything to the game other than giving the town either a tie or a mafia member (or both).

[Cadmium]

That's exactly why I think the bullet proof vest is never a good idea to have in a game. The player having the vest could come out the very first day.

And then someone says, "Isn't that isomorphic to a godfather with both standard gf abilities?" Perhaps someone else would say, "That role is unbalanced, <the mod> would never use it!" The vest claimer isn't confirmed.

You're right when you look at most of the games currently running. All you know is the number of players and the rest is a surprise. But in most of the early mafia games played on the GL and here, all the roles were known to the players if I recall correctly .

[Cadmium]

I don't see how it can be countered without making another role ability to counter it.

And what if that role is killed the first night ?

It's never a good idea to counter a role that is too powerfull with another role. That other role will be too important for the balance of the game. You should never let the balance of the game depend on one single role.

[Cadmium]

Never say never. If you have a situation where a role is just slightly out of balance, adding a countering agent is reasonable.

Sean Connery should never have withdrawn his never either .

But you're right, if a role is not too much out of balance, you could use a counterweight. Should it not survive the first night, that would be comparable to losing a cop or doc the first night.