The Invincible Man

[Dragon Slayer]

What are your thoughts on roles that are immune to night kills (permanently)?

IMO, mafia immune to night kills is not a good idea but town roles immune to night kills is intolerably...not a good idea...

Once the person claims, there is no way for them to die. THey won't be lynched and they can't be killed (unless a game allows day kills by certain roles, though this doesn't usually happen).

-DS

[PolarBoy]

Actually it's a pretty good idea to give it to a townie. For starters bear in mind that the mafia do not need to kill an invincible man at night. They could get him lynched or wait for the endgame. The role is unclaimable, as it puts docs and cops in danger. Better to maneuver the mafia into wasting a kill.

Actually it would be pretty neat to see this role become more common. As docs could bluff it to avoid being killed by the mafia while protecting others. Giving it to a mafia member could be royally unfair in a game with vigs, as it could make the vig useless.

Anyway it seems to me that it's all a matter of the individual game and how the mod needs to balance it.

[bigbenwd]

i like that role, i would really like to be that role lol

[shelper]

Reminds me of a role i read on the princeton site

(Ha, beat you to it, phoebus!)

The tree stump is a normal player until he declares himself the tree stump after which he can not be killed by anybody. He'll also lose his power to vote however.

Can't say i like the voting restriction on it, but it certainly needs something to balance out the kill immunities...

[PolarBoy]

I hate to simply contradict someone, but no, it doesn't. It's rare that a given role needs to be self balancing, as a powerful pro-town role can be balanced by throwing in a cop variation or some such. And besides, the invincible man already is self-balancing.

It's true that once he becomes known the mafia can't kill him. Then again he has the most convenient role claim possible. He needn't do anything at all to confirm it. The fact that he remains alive ends up working against him as it could mean that he's scum, and on top of that his role provides nothing for the town once it's known. Instead the scum know one more person they shouldn't be going after. The one working strategy an invincible player has is to convince the mafia that he's really a doc or cop of some sort, without getting lynched by the town. That is a fine line to walk, as most towns do not look kindly on liars.

[Cadmium]

Giving it to a mafia member could be royally unfair in a game with vigs, as it could make the vig useless.

I have to disagree. When a vigilante tries to kill this mafia member and it fails, it could mean that a doc protected the target OR that the target is immune to night kills and possibly mafia.

In Full Communication mafia, I was the godfather and immune to night kills. I believe that Dragon Slayer was a vigilante and he tried to kill me one night. Of cource, I did not die. They asked me to explain the next day. I made something up about being able to protect myself. They didn't buy it and lynched me.

So instead of killing someone that night, the vigilante becomes some kind of a cop.

[jeep]

I don't like the role, they are often too powerful.

Take the end game I was once in. Night: Me=mafia, X=townie, Y=townie with bullet proof vest (permanant invincible to kill)

I could not win. It was impossible. I thought I had it in the bag. Y actually made a comment that indicated that I should kill him, so I killed the other and it was drawn. I found out after the game that Y had the vest.

I don't like roles that the mafia has no way to kill. IMO, they are generally unbalanced or unbalancing to the game.

-JEEP

[Wacky]

So with the said tree stump, if we stuck him into jeep's scenario, would get lynched the following day since the majority is 1?

[Cadmium]

Take the end game I was once in. Night: Me=mafia, X=townie, Y=townie with bullet proof vest (permanant invincible to kill)

I could not win. It was impossible. I thought I had it in the bag. Y actually made a comment that indicated that I should kill him, so I killed the other and it was drawn. I found out after the game that Y had the vest.

That's exactly why I think the bullet proof vest is never a good idea to have in a game. The player having the vest could come out the very first day. If the mafia doesn't do anything, there's one confirmed innocent who won't be lynched or killed the rest of the game, resulting in a tie at least. So the mafia has to do something. The only thing they can do, is claiming the same thing. When this happens, the town lynches one of them. If they are right, they have found a mafia, the vest is out in the open and again the game results in a tie at least. If they are wrong, the vest is out of the game, but they still have found a mafia member. This role is really not adding anything to the game other than giving the town either a tie or a mafia member (or both).

[Dragon Phoenix]

The bullet proof vest was introduced in one of the first mafia games at the GL. There it made sense, because there were two killing groups: mafia and werewolves. The bpv did not protect against werewolves, and likewise there was a "bane" role who was safe from werewolves, but not from mafia.

[Dasquian]

The vest doesn't force the mafia to tie, but they

do

need to keep at least 2 mafia alive to the end-game Same difference though. How about a variation which is something like a 2-use self-protect?

[Norinel]

Take the end game I was once in. Night: Me=mafia, X=townie, Y=townie with bullet proof vest (permanant invincible to kill)

I could not win. It was impossible. I thought I had it in the bag. Y actually made a comment that indicated that I should kill him, so I killed the other and it was drawn. I found out after the game that Y had the vest.

Personally, I'd make an exception in that case that the mafia wins anyway.

That's exactly why I think the bullet proof vest is never a good idea to have in a game. The player having the vest could come out the very first day.

And then someone says, "Isn't that isomorphic to a godfather with both standard gf abilities?" Perhaps someone else would say, "That role is unbalanced, <the mod> would never use it!" The vest claimer isn't confirmed.

[jeep]

Actually Sketchwick and I went though many variations on BP vest. Single use, double use, permanent... We finally decided permanent, but also gave the mafia some special kill abilities too. Armor Piercing, Shotgun, and Poison all had special traits. Neither AP nor Poison were stopped by BP Vest. Poison had to have a delay and was cured by a doc if he ever protected a poison victim. That was wonderfully powerful but never got used until Antrax took over in the end game. Shotgun got around doc protection.

With two killing groups, nighttime immunity is different. I actually like the godfather mmunity idea for multiple mafia games. I was thinking about making a game where a mafia member could be "made" a la Goodfellas. The other mafia(s) can't touch a made man without there being hell to pay.

-JEEP

[Phoebus]

Reminds me of a role i read on the princeton site

(Ha, beat you to it, phoebus!)

We'll see who's beaten whom to what eventually...

~P

[Cadmium]

That's exactly why I think the bullet proof vest is never a good idea to have in a game. The player having the vest could come out the very first day.

And then someone says, "Isn't that isomorphic to a godfather with both standard gf abilities?" Perhaps someone else would say, "That role is unbalanced, <the mod> would never use it!" The vest claimer isn't confirmed.

You're right when you look at most of the games currently running. All you know is the number of players and the rest is a surprise. But in most of the early mafia games played on the GL and here, all the roles were known to the players if I recall correctly .

[Dragon Phoenix]

True. I think I may have been the first one to run a game without people knowing the roles: GL mafia #9.

[Stewie]

The first mini I made there was a posibitily for the town to get a vigi, and

one

of the mafia had night immunity.

In another game I was godfather, but instead of investigation immunity I had night immunity. I played the whole game thinking there was a vigilante.

[PolarBoy]

JEEP's endgame definitely demonstrates how the invincible man could be a problem. I was assuming that once it got down to two players left that immunity would no longer work. If you want to nitpick and say that the vest is still bullet-proof no matter how many people are in the town, just remember that once you reach endgame the mafia no longer need to be subtle and can just shoot the guy point blank in the head and not wait for night.

[Dragon Slayer]

Well, first of, so as not to confuse people, the role name generally isn't the Invincible Man. Anyway, the reasons why I find it unfair is because once someone says to the town that they have a role ability that makes them immune to night kills is provable. If it's proven then that person will never die or if they are simply believed from the very begining of thjeir claim then they will also never die because they won't ever be lynched. I don't see how it can be countered without making another role ability to counter it.

I think it can be more fair for mafia godfather to have that ability. I think I gave that ability once and it worked out... ok.

I just don't like permantent invincible roles (to night kills). It's too unfair unless somehow brilliantly countered. Role abilities that make you immune to maybe one night kill is good, though. It confuses the mafia. Or the town if the mafia was targeted by a vig.

-DS

[jadesmar]

DS: In a single mafia game, all mafia are pretty much immune to night kills and the mafia GF has that role by default.

[Cadmium]

I don't see how it can be countered without making another role ability to counter it.

And what if that role is killed the first night ?

It's never a good idea to counter a role that is too powerfull with another role. That other role will be too important for the balance of the game. You should never let the balance of the game depend on one single role.

[jeep]

It's never a good idea to counter a role that is too powerfull with another role. That other role will be too important for the balance of the game. You should never let the balance of the game depend on one single role.

Never say never. If you have a situation where a role is just slightly out of balance, adding a countering agent is reasonable. It's a pure numbers game, right? If a game becomes unbalanced, it doesn't mean that the game was designed unbalanced.

It is true, however, that good games will not become unbalanced by the loss of a single person (early in the game, at least).

-JEEP

[Cadmium]

Never say never. If you have a situation where a role is just slightly out of balance, adding a countering agent is reasonable.

Sean Connery should never have withdrawn his never either .

But you're right, if a role is not too much out of balance, you could use a counterweight. Should it not survive the first night, that would be comparable to losing a cop or doc the first night.

[Werebear]

The funniest role I ever thought up... If I had created a Holy Grail mafia, I would have included the role "Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Mafia". They can't die at night, they can't be lynched, they can't vote, they don't count towards lynching numbers - and they don't count towards the win at the end. I'd make it so they'd win with the town, just to give incentive - but it seems like including a role that discusses but can't vote or die would be hilarious. Especially if you got someone vocal in there.

[Dragon Slayer]

I agree with JEEP on the counterparts.

DS: In a single mafia game, all mafia are pretty much immune to night kills and the mafia GF has that role by def

This I disagree with. The GF doesn't always have this role. That was however, the old school mafia way IMO, but know they are more often immune to investigations.

Also, as for the rest of the mafia being "immune": what about vig's, SKs. etc. There are tons of other killing roles in games. With the exception of some newbie games and a couple minis, there are almost always multiple killing roles. At least vog like roles. I like have a pro-town killer like vigs. One shot to do good. Gotta save it, gotta use it. That's also the problem.


-DS