TT; Book 1: Bible Verse Mafia - Game over!

[mith]

Ah, yes, the random voting stage of the game. How could I forget?

Coron, Mastermind of Sin, Tyfo: Please tell me in 25-50 words why you are innocent.

Iammars: Write 25-50 words on why random voting is a good way to start a Mafia game. Then write 25-50 words on why random voting is a waste of time.

[mith]

Hm, MoS has already written 27 words since I gave him his "assignment", yet he is too busy? Clearly he is trying to avoid giving himself away.

(Note: I am travelling most of the day tomorrow and most of the day Thursday, will probably be shopping most of the day Wednesday, and who knows whether I'll have an internet connection while we're in Tennessee. I will probably still post somewhat regularly, but in case I don't, you'll know why.)

[mith]

Coron, isn't it obvious? To get you to talk.

[mith]

Fair enough.

Vote: Coron

The Coron bandwagon is now boarding. Please proceed to gate 107 for departure. Thank you.

[mith]

Ah, this is more like it.

that's why I have twice as many posts as you in this game.

One, again, you have twice as many posts and yet you were too busy with your paper to humor me. I find this interesting.

Two, who cares how many posts you have? Last I checked this game was more about the content of the posts than the number. I could be wrong though, it's been a while.

Three, I'm pretty sure I've been on a plane all day. I'm pretty sure I posted that I would be travelling today.

(But that's irrelevant. We'll just look at the number of posts.)

Four, I was addressing Coron. That is why I asked Coron to do my little "assignment". That is not why I asked you.

I might tell you why I asked you. If you ask me nicely.

Mith, here's your assignment. Write 50-75 words on why giving out assignments at the beginning of a game is totally pointless and just adds to the worthless drivel that is contained within the first 3-5 pages of the thread.

Now why would I do that? I believe all I asked you to do was tell me why you're innocent. You do

believe

you're innocent, don't you?

Because I certainly don't believe what you have asked me to write.

[mith]

Come on, MoS, you're better than this. I gave you a nice lengthy post to respond to, and the best you can come up with is a "self-explanatory" vote? That's a cop-out.

Unvote: Coron

for the moment, though. I'm not interested in a quick lynch, and I'm not interested in a day 1 claim. I've got the bandwagon information I was looking for, it's time for something else. I will be coming back to Coron eventually if he doesn't post something worthwhile; but for now, let's see if MoS will bite.

[mith]

Coron, you might get lynched less if you took the time to explain things rather than just insulting everyone.

Just a thought.

(And yes, I am aware that there is not

much

to explain here, as it seems pretty much everyone voting for him just followed me blindly. However, he could at least explain why he refuses to write a little something for me.)

[mith]

I'll add a

FOS: VisMaior

, certainly the most suspicious to jump on the Coron-wagon. There's another on there that I've got my eye on, but I'll give him a couple more posts to see how he reacts to the possibility that I'm watching him.

I'll have to leave it at that this morning; we're supposedly leaving in... 31 minutes, and I haven't packed yet...

[mith]

Yikes, it's been a while, I'd forgotten how incoherent Roadbird is...

it has yet to be explained to me why I should make the world read 25 extra useless words, besides it appears to have found me a scum.

I believe I already did explain why I asked you to do this. I did it to get you to talk, or at least to judge your reaction. It should be obvious why I want you to talk; look at your first two posts (a total of three words). I get a much better read on people when they're talking (and even better when they're arguing with me).

I've tried this little game before, though on that occasion I did it not to get people to talk, but to get a statement from players I know and can read reasonably well. A little answer to an admittedly somewhat silly question provides a great reference for later in the game. And, of course, the discussion thrives and bandwagons are born. Look how many people gave some sort of response here.

What I find interesting about your choice of response is not that you questioned and refused, but that that's all you did for the first few posts. Now, you're suddenly making longish posts. So was this legitimately not having anything to contribute, or were you lurking until you saw something to jump on?

I don't understand your initial jump on Roadbird at all. He is certainly not the only person to bandwagon jump.

(I don't understand why VisMaior chimed in with the nonissuepost thing, for that matter.)

All that said, I'm glad you got Roadbird posting, he makes less sense than you.

why not just not vote at all yet???

Yes lets all sit back and wait for a few months until Iammars gets bored and starts writing his 25-50 words mith ordered him to. Then we can all vote him for posting. Or better yet. Lets all vote no lynch. Well Coron your mathematical formulas seem to work. Tell me how much would scum gain from that?

Warning: Using the user filter without looking at the context may cause mith to make fun of you, Crap Logic (tm), upset stomach, foot-in-mouth, and diarrhea.

Context:

Placeholder Vote: No Lynch

I'm present, I'm not seeing anyone acting excessively suspicious, (except maybe Mith's 'teacher'-mode with the essays...?) and I'm hoping not to get slammed down for lurking. My vote is only a temporary until someone either acts suspicious enough to earn it, or someone makes a good case for why I should vote for another particular individual. I'm not advocating a no-lynch, just keeping my vote from accidentally killing someone should the day move quickly.

Anyway, I will follow any bandwagon on day one. I've been playing that way for years now and I might have missed something in the past year of not playing but I haven't seen better tactics.

Might I suggest that you haven't seen better tactics because you have been too busy not paying attention to the game during day 1?

(And from the one game I remember playing with you in, you'll follow any bandwagon on day X and throw the game away because it's lynch or lose. The play style you are advocating is harmful to the town, and I am quite happy to lynch you just for that if I don't form any strong suspicions as we near the day's end. But I probably will, because I get involved instead of mindlessly bandwagoning hopping.)

[mith]

and I'd think you'd prefer it to me lurking

Read my question again. I was asking why you weren't posting like this in the first place, not why you were posting content now. Obviously I prefer you posting to not posting.

he's the person I noticed.

...ok, but that doesn't justify the "case closed" attitude of your "still need more reason?" comment. Is there more reason?

I'm leaning toward a VisMaior vote at the moment, but I'd like to hear from MoS and Roadbird again first.

[mith]

I don't care what your recollection of events is. You are willing to lynch me over a memory that is incorrect

I really need to start a mafiascum class in reading comprehension. "The play style you are advocating" is present tense. It has nothing to do with my recollection (which you don't care about, but are absolutely certain is incorrect, despite me not saying what game I'm talking about; I could point you to it if you like, but we're getting off topic here); my point in bringing it up is simply: hasty play on day 1 breeds hasty play in general, and it's bad for the town.

but I'm not allowed to have an oppinion on day-one tactics.

I certainly said no such thing. You are allowed to have whatever opinion you like. And (this is the key, listen carefully), I am allowed to disagree with it.

I offered a reason why you might hold that opinion (admittedly a bit ad hominem, but I couldn't help myself after the rubish you posted at MoS). Rather than defend your opinion, you add:

Well, I'm using it even if you get me lynched over and over again.

This is not the statement of someone who has really considered all sides of the argument.

Now, if you would like to discuss the question "Is there something better to do on day 1 than jump on every bandwagon that comes along?", I'm sure I can come up with a few examples that answer "Yes". At the moment though, I must continue to believe that your "tactic" is the product of lazy play.

Merry Christmas

Happy Boxing Day.

[mith]

No posts at all today? I expected this on Christmas, not two days after. Where is everyone?

I'll go ahead and

Vote: VisMaior

, since discussion has stalled.

[mith]

You don't post for a week, and that's all you have to say?

FOS: LyingBrian

[mith]

Hm, PB with the "nice play" tell and CA being stubborn about FD? Interesting.

Unvote: VisMaior

for the moment. I need to think. And a lot of people need to post.

[mith]

Right, after further review:

The case against armlx is weak at best. At the time he posted the "Roadbird or Vis" post, there was already a rather strong bandwagon on VisMaior (4 votes and an FOS) and only a single vote on Roadbird; while I was calling Roadbird incoherent, there was no real sign that a bandwagon might go that direction at the time. Besides that, I'd rather *encourage* players to post who they are "deciding" between; it often makes connections easier to find.

I'm not willing to vote for Roadbird until I hear from him, and at the moment all I have on him is an annoyance at his play style rather than anything particularly scummy. He hasn't posted anywhere in a week, and I assume that as with others this has more to do with the time of the year than with deliberate lurking.

VisMaior remains at the top of my list, for reasons already stated, so I will

Vote: VisMaior

again.

FOS: Flying Dutchman

; he seemed a tad sycophantic earlier in my direction and the CA thing is bothering me. No one seems interested in going that direction today though (which is fine, I think I'd rather wait and see if anything new happens there anyway).

[mith]

Bleh, day 1 claims. It is unlikely I will move my vote because of a claim. Waste of time.

You could try actually posting suspicions and arguing your case instead of sitting around posting little one sentence posts hoping the bandwagon will go somewhere else.

Who are your top three suspects at the moment?

[mith]

VM, I asked for three, not half the town.

I will reiterate that I am not interested in claims on day 1, and I find it unlikely that anything claimed is going to cause me to remove my vote. That said, becoming more suspicious of another player might, and LyingBrian and Flying Dutchman are both edging up there.

[mith]

~sigh~

I am quite suspicious of FD as I've mentioned, but I am not participating in this claim frenzy nonsense. Someone wake me up when we're ready to lynch someone. I am happy with my vote.

[mith]

Not voting for people you find "quite suspicious" doesn't seem to be a winning strategy.

I can only vote for one person. VisMaior remains at the top of my list. One would think that could be gleaned from my posts, but maybe reading comprehension isn't a winning strategy either.

[mith]

my humblest apologies, but do you mind sharing your suspicion, oh great website creator?

~rolls eyes~

You got my attention with the "hi" post, and badgering-for-role-claim does not sit well.

[mith]

inHim, if you're referring to the eye rolling, I was responding to the "oh great website creator" bit which was quite uncalled for (had I acted "high and mighty" in the post where I mentioned him, fair enough, but I don't think any reasonable person could interpret that post as such, so I can only assume it was deliberate sarcasm intended to undermine whatever I had in mind).

If you're referring to my "reading comprehension" comment, the sentence I responded to seemed at least a little sarcastic. I felt justified in responding in kind. If he didn't intend it that way, then I apologize for being unnecessarily harsh. Though, if LyingBrian is going to address me as he did, I might as well act the part.

If you're referring to something else, you'll have to point me to it.

[mith]

The main definition of routine is something regular, but usually when used in a phrase like "the high and mighty routine" it's just being used in the sense of:

4.

Slang.

A particular kind of behavior or activity:

Must you go into your hurt routine when you don't get your way?

So nyah.

I am still waiting to see what FD has to say. If all he says is a claim, I may have to vote him just on principles.

[mith]

Unvote

because of the deadline.

I am suspicious enough of FD to cast the final vote in a couple days (entirely because of CA's persistence), but shame on you all for this claim stuff. Has anyone stopped to think how easy it would be to make up a claim in this game? Has anyone stopped to think how risky it is to give the scum lots of information to work with? Maybe everyone is genuinely suspicious of FD and was ready to lynch him regardless of what he claimed, but that does not appear to be the case at all.

To answer LyingBrian's question, I try to catch scum. It's as simple as that. I vote for who I think is most suspicious (or close to it, if my hand is forced by a deadline). I don't screw around with claims, because in a well designed game (and knowing Cadmium, this is one) it is harmful for the town. There are good reasons to claim; day 1 bandwagons are not one of them. There are 10 pages here to analyze, more than enough to find

something

suspicious. Random bandwagons, particularly to force claims, are a waste of time and entirely against the point of the game (and don't get us through the day any faster, if everyone plays along and claims, as the town goes through several players before settling on someone that they can "afford" to lynch).

[/rant] for now. I'm tired. Maybe more later.

[mith]

In that case, I will not be voting for FD. I was suspicious of him earlier, as I mentioned, but since then he has done very little that bothers me. The case agaisnt him as presented so far is very weak, and I would be surprised if more than a few people are voting him because of it, rather than because of CA going after him the way he did.

Vote: Roadbird

. VisMaior is not going to be lynched today, even though I am still quite suspicious of him. I'll wait on LyingBrian as well, as it may be a generational clash more than anything. Roadbird is therefore the best alternative to FD at deadline. I hope FD is scum, since it seems likely he will be lynched anyway, but I'm just not seeing it.

[mith]

Sentence 1: Yes, I liked it so much that I said I was willing to vote for him... until CA gave his disclaimer.

Sentence 2: I'm not sure how you meant this, but the implication is that this is a sudden thing due to our roles in this game. I guess you wouldn't know how I play, but that's still one heck of a leap. That, and I've been strongly agaisnt day 1 claims *in this very thread* long before the FD bandwagon.

Sentence 3: You are welcome to argue about it, rather than hiding behind "it's bad play". I've already ranted about it a little bit to LyingBrian, you can use that as a starting point.

Though, as a warning, if we do argue about role-claim-frenzy inHim will probably tell me I'm acting "high and mighty" again by the end of it.

[mith]

"against". Bah.

[mith]

I've been having internet troubles all day and when it's been working I've been mystery hunting. Will respond (not that there's much to respond to) tomorrow hopefully.

[mith]

I see. I think it is bad play because it is safe play for scum.

How is it safe? In the current setting, not claiming when bandwagoned gets most people lynched.

Anyway, that doesn't really address my claim that forcing claims early in the game is bad for the town (and the game in general).

i'm not sure what "generational" clash you were talking about... you are more experienced, and i seriously respect you for that... i doubt you're THAT much older than me though...

Heh... unless I'm mistaken, you are actually older than me.

No, all I meant is that it has been a while since I played a significant number of games, and the current state of the metagame is not what it was when I played a lot. Thus, for now, I must keep in mind that I might be seeing your playstyle as scummy because of that shift, not because it is inherently scummy.

[mith]

I might have to go back to my Vader avatar.

[mith]

Hey, the "nice play" tell strikes again!

For my convenience:

Job 14:13

"If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

Hosea 2:6

Therefore I will block her path with thornbushes;
I will wall her in so that she cannot find her way.

Acts 20:26

Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men.

Numbers 35:16

" 'If a man strikes someone with an iron object so that he dies, he is a murderer; the murderer shall be put to death.

Flying Dutchman was likely a roleblocker. armlx's verse doesn't help much. PeaceBringer's suggests that the scum each have a different kill method (and that PeaceBringer killed armlx, of course). And I am terribly amused at "perished to death".

Obligatory

FOS: Commodore Amazing

, if only for bad play. I'll have to take a closer look at him later, along with everyone else on the bandwagon. One thing I am particularly curious about is those players that didn't post at all between CA's post on the 12th (denying he had an investigation) and FD's death on the 17th: PeaceBringer (dead scum), Fritzler, and Coron. Both Fritzler and Coron were active during those five days, I find the lack of comment disturbing. (Could also throw in Roadbird here, who posted but didn't address CA's comment.)

[mith]

Bleh, keep getting distracted. Will try to do my re-read this afternoon sometime.

[mith]

inHim, I can't fault DP for what he did yesterday. FD was dead anyway, and was suiciding. (I do agree that there is likely at least one more scum on that wagon, I just don't see any strong reason to suspect DP over anyone else, including you.)

Fritzler, I sometimes forget that there are players that just jump on any bandwagon that forms. So, for now, I will withdraw my objection that the three of you didn't comment after CA's statement. I am tempted to vote for you on the grounds that your constant bandwagoning works against the town. But I'm not ready for a vote yet, so you just get an

FOS

.

VisMaior, any particular reason you voted for Pooky?

[mith]

I'm happy lynching Roadbird, but I'll wait about voting until he's spoken.

(That'll have to do until tomorrow afternoon, need to get some things done before my meeting.)

[mith]

With regards to mith, I don't know what to make of his "nice play" tell on PeaceBringer. mith, could you explain that tell to me? And has anyone else heard of this tell? And mith, why didn't you follow up with it if you thought it was a tell?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2828

First one. It's not something I normally look at. I had just been reading that thread, so I commented on it. Maybe now that I've seen it first hand, I'll pay more attention to it in future games, but at the time I had other things to look at (like thinking you might have an investigation).

Also, if Vis is a hider, should he be telling us who he is targeting each night? I think he should if we think he's a hider. However, if we think he is a doctor, we obviously shouldn't be hearing who he is targeting. I imagine the scum thinks he is a hider, otherwise they would have killed him last night?

Er... why?

[mith]

I didn't realize hiders get killed if the person they hid with is killed. I thought he would only die if he hid with scum. My hope was that we could use him as a suicidal cop role.

I've played in lots of games (most recently Canine over on the GL) where hiders don't die if they hide with scum (precisely for this reason; it turns the role into a pseudo-cop). I hadn't really considered that possibility when I posted. Not sure how Cadmium would treat a hider, and it's pretty pointless to try outguessing him anyway. But thanks for the clarification.

Still leaning toward Roadbird.

Why the change, Fritz?

[mith]

Curious why LML is asking me, rather than someone who is actually voting for him. I could put together a summary of why I thought he was scum; I've changed my mind since Wednesday though. I am pretty sure he's innocent now. I'm going to re-read tomorrow to see what I think about LB.

[mith]

Huge FOS: VisMaior

.

Yesterday: "I think [no-claim] is bad play because it is safe play for scum.
Today: "I think claiming townie should not save one from a lynch, as otherwise this would be too easy of a play for scum."

Most of Today: Voting for Pooky and then LyingBrian, with comments like "I dont really like the speed on the roadbird wagon." and "Pooky is a ot [sic] more scummy then Roadbird, I think... ".
And then: You suddenly switch to Roadbird, not because anything has come out with new suspicions/evidence against him, but after two players have come out saying he is likely innocent.

This screams of trying to rush through a lynch on an innocent that might otherwise get off the hook and hiding behind some ridiculous claim based reasoning. If I thought there was any chance of getting you lynched today, I would be voting for you.

LML: Just use the filter on my posts and search on Roadbird. I argued with him a bit yesterday (more for being incoherent and bandwagoning than anything else) and voted for him late because I thought FD was innocent and he was the next best bandwagon. Today, I said I'd be happy lynching him and was leaning toward him (over LB)... not sure how that's the same as me being "STRONG" on his bandwagon. You've seen me strong on a bandwagon before.

I found him suspicious for the bandwagoning, the not-making-any-sense, and the lack of comment on CA's post.

I could make a semi-WIFOM argument here (Why would I suddenly declare him innocent if I were lying scum?), but that's a bit pointless.

Still, I'm not going to reveal why I think he's innocent just yet; I am still trying to decide whether the benefits (likely saving Roadbird) outweigh the risks. I'll continue thinking about it today. Don't put the final vote on him until I post again, at the very least.

[mith]

Yes: if people are suspicious of a townie and he claims townie, it should not save him.

But you

weren't

suspicious of him. He claimed townie over two weeks ago, and you twice implied you didn't think he was suspicious.

Vote: VisMaior

. I'll switch to LyingBrian if forced to by the deadline, but I will not tolerate poor meta-game logic in the place of voting for people you actually find suspicious. Besides, if we don't lynch hiders/docs, mafia will simply claim hider/doc...

[mith]

Meh, screw it. Probably not solid play, but I'm too tired to think about it any more.

Psalm 107:31. There's four identical verses in Psalm 107; I think it might be some sort of weakened mason type role. I wouldn't put it past Cadmium to have left one as a safe scum claim, though I'm not sure how this would've been done considering all anyone was sent was a verse and whether they needed to send a choice. Even so, I see no reason to lynch Roadbird today. I expect to die tonight for this, but a clever scum probably would've picked up on what I was hinting at anyway.

[mith]

It is very rare that any claim can be "proven". I'd love to know how you think you're going to prove that your verse is as claimed, aside from getting killed.

[mith]

Yes, you getting killed is pretty likely to confirm whatever your verse is. Thus "aside from getting killed". We can't sit around waiting for you to get killed to confirm your role (particularly since your claim is open to more than one interpretation, and you might be lying). If you continue to not die, we have to come to a decision on you eventually.

[mith]

Thoth, I believe Roadbird simply because, unless the Mod specifically told him the claim was safe (and the rules imply that he wouldn't do this), the odds of him falsely claiming a verse which is identical to my own are not very good (there's over 30,000 verses). I doubt anyone picked up on my day 1 hints (posts 56 and 96), and if Roadbird had he would've come out with his verse much earlier than he did.

[mith]

VisMaior is such scum.

I might have been out.

[mith]

Vote: VisMaior

I agree though, it's likely they are the Numbers mafia with different kill methods.

[mith]

...I was voting for you yesterday. Go read.

You're always asking questions like this. Do you lack a long term memory?

[mith]

Suggestion: Don't sign up for so many games that you don't know what's going on in them.

[mith]

Oh no! I've been noted!

[mith]

It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when people vote for me with no reasoning whatsoever.

Wouldn't be surprised at a VM/LML pairing.

Is Coron still playing? Could we get a prod/replacement?

[mith]

Actually, I was refering to LML coming in yesterday and going hard after LB, implicitly defending VM (and then VM linking it back).

An investigation would explain it too, though.

Unvote

. I'm not convinced you aren't naive, but I don't mind giving it a day or two.

I'll consider Pooky, but at the moment I'm leaning toward Fritz.

[mith]

Vote: Pooky

I guess. I find him more suspicious than Kerplunk, and it seems to be down to one of those two.

[mith]

A vote count would be nice.

A bit busy this weekend. I need a reread. At the moment, I think my top three other than Pooky would be Coron, DP, and Fritz (in no particular order).

[mith]

Fritz: That, and the sweet taste of hunch.

[mith]

http://www.mafiascum.net/Oregon%202005/ ... _pooky.jpg

But I still think he's scum.

[mith]

I'm still happy with my Pooky vote. I'm not seeing the Thoth argument. I could go for a DP lynch as well.

I really need to do a re-read tomorrow. ~adds to list~

[mith]

Er... did I miss something? Where did Thoth claim?

[mith]

inHim's argument against Thoth bothers me. While it is certainly true that scum sometimes stay off a lynching bandwagon in order to appear more innocent when the lynched player turns up innocent, but to take that line of thinking to "we should lynch one of the players that was on the second biggest wagon both days" ducks the responsibility voting for dead innocents. I stayed off both because, at the end of the day, neither was the most suspicious in my eyes; I don't have any reason to think Thoth was voting the same out of a different motivation.

That isn't to say I think Thoth is definitely innocent, but I don't see anything else in his posts that stands out as particularly suspicious, and so I won't be voting for him on such a weak basis.

Unvote

for the moment. I'd like Pooky and DP to both post something more substantial than the little comments I've seen so far, including who (aside from each other) they find suspicious.

[mith]

As I said earlier, I don't think we're meant to be townies. I think we're meant to be weakened masons.

Curious about the claim from DP. I'm reminded once more of something he said about claiming on the GL:

You should know better than that, mith. I do NOT claim this early in the game, unless I am a cop or doc or scum.

Granted, it's a tad later in the game, and this is a somewhat unique game. But there's not all that much pressure on him, and it surprises me that he'd claim now.

~wanders off to think/procrastinate/write-silly-scenes-for-VM~

[mith]

Vote: Commodore Amazing

I don't like that post, at all. I'm somewhat suspicious of Pooky still, DP quite a bit, and I'm watching a few others, but I'm going to have to go with my gut here.

[mith]

Roadbird's comment probably reminded the scum of it if they missed it the first time.

The fourth, assuming there is one, should stay hidden for now. No reason to come out unless you're about to get lynched.

[mith]

FOS: the silent speaker

Don't trust the undead.

I'll wait on LML, but probably voting for CA again. I wish you people would stop lynching people I'm not voting for. It's obviously not working out.

[mith]

I'll still wait on LML (in case he's got a guilty result), but I wanted to vote VM earlier so I have no problem going there again.

[mith]

Ok, but there's no reason not to wait.

[mith]

Vote: VisMaior

[mith]

FOS: inHim!

Reply 666!

[mith]

I decided yesterday I'd vote for Fritzler if VM turned out innocent. I need to reread first though.

[mith]

Hm.

I'm somewhat suspicious of Mackay, and I can't put a finger on why. It could just be a result of her coming in mid-game, I'll have to give it some thought.

I still find it quite likely that TSS is scum. Him taking over for EnderX in some way makes a lot of sense.

The play is Fritzler, though. I don't believe he's a "mason recruiter" for obvious reasons. I could see him having a role where he is allowed to talk to people at night without the assurance that they are innocent... except the claimed attempt to recruit Fuldu rules that out. Regardless, it's too much risk to leave him alive just on the possibility that he might be innocent. If we let him live and he is cult, we likely give the cult a stranglehold on the game. If we kill him and he's innocent, we really don't lose that much.

Vote: Fritzler

[mith]

(I think that's 4.)

[mith]

Good point. Completely slipped my mind that EnderX was "perished". I'm certainly not completely discounting the idea of EnderX as a cult recruit; I had just already decided I was voting for Fritzler and didn't look into much else with too much detail.

Still, I can't bring myself to trust tss just yet; in part because it will annoy me so much if he survives and turns out to be evil.

Something that's bothering me about the murder-by-numbers verses is that there's really only 3 killing verses there. 15 and 19 don't seem like scum verses to me. It's quite possible there is a Godfather type role (in the sense of not having a related verse) grouped with the Numbers verses. 3 in that group seems very weak compared to what else we've seen.

[mith]

Vote: Mackay

I trust LML for now. Maybe I'll regret it later.

I came up with some wacky theory that had tss as the perisher... and he goes and gets himself perished. Pah.

[mith]

Gah, I can't see any way around doing this.

I am the final cultist (which should be obvious, even with LML's late attempt to shield me yesterday). I tried to recruit VitaminR last night in order to ensure that the cult lived for the draw LML and I had planned, knowing that if one Psalm verse could be recruited, so could the rest.

VitaminR was not recruited, however.

I was sure Ameliaslay was our last killer, too.

Here's the deal. If the town lynches me, the SK wins. None of the rest of us want that. If the town lynches the SK, I am willing to live up to the draw I agreed with LML. I would be more than happy with it, given the awful position I came into.

Vote: VitaminR

[mith]

(To be absolutely sure though, I'd like VitaminR to claim a verse number, and then I'd like Ameliaslay to claim.)

[mith]

It won't be night, since you haven't voted.

I was hoping you'd turn out to be a third Psalm verse, and VitaminR would contradict it. That's why I asked him to go first. But if that's your role, it doesn't matter.

[mith]

Ah, good. I was a tad worried you'd muddy things and claim vig, because that's a bit harder (though far from impossible) for me to argue against. Or perhaps even just claim that you're Psalm 107 as you said and unrecruited, I was so convinced our last scum was Ameliaslay that I was trying to figure out other possible reasons why the recruit failed. Now at least *I'm* sure you're the SK. Now to convince the others.

I've already addressed LML's comment, and it's motivation. The two of us were so pissed off at Fritz that we had agreed to attempt to survive the game together and draw. He was trying to keep me alive (and got himself killed for it).

Three reasons why VitaminR is the SK, and I'm not:

1. How would SK mith be able to come up with such a claim as a same-verse mason *before* one of the other masons came out? Not only would I have to come up with the idea for verse-confirming masons on day 1 (otherwise, why choose that verse to plant?), I'd have to *find* verses like that, get quite lucky in them actually turning up in the game, and get even more lucky in not claiming one that someone else actually has. All so I could come out and save Roadbird at the last moment. Yeah, that makes sense...

Once Roadbird had claimed though, it would be a simple matter for VitaminRscum to look at the chapter, notice how there's 4 verses the same, and start hinting at being one of them (not ever actually claiming which). I pinned myself to one from the start, before I could have even known about them. This should be plenty on its own.

2. The first point was "I claimed first", and the second is like it: I claimed cultist first.

Let's say I'm the SK, and I want to come out as the last cultist to try to get the real cultist (or anyone, for that matter; the SK wouldn't care) lynched. I have three choices I can go after. But if I pick the wrong one, the real cultist comes out, and I get lynched. That didn't happen. Either I got pretty lucky... or I really am the cultist.

VitaminR on the other hand, claimed after me. He knew who the real cultist was, and his only option (well, other than the ones I mentioned at the start, which were to him equally futile, and did not have the plus of casting doubt on my cult claim) was to go after me. There's no chance involved here; after my claim, he already knows who tried to recruit him, and doesn't have to guess.

This certainly isn't "proof". But the odds are on my side.

3. And the third reason... I have chat logs with LML. It seems unsporting to actually use them, but if the mod approves and the town insists, I will.

[mith]

Think about this CA and Amelia, why would LML make that comment? Why make a future claim more difficult if mith was his cult buddy?

The two of us were so pissed off at Fritz that we had agreed to attempt to survive the game together and draw. He was trying to keep me alive (and got himself killed for it).

A simple matter? An easy way of fitting in far-fetched speculation. Interesting also how you discounted RoadBird picking up on your role hints in your claim then, yet now find it likely that I did. You're twisting the perspective to fit your interpretation.

Huh? I wasn't saying it was likely you picked up hints from *my* breadcrumbs. I was saying that I find it quite likely that once *he* claimed, you would have found it easy to look up the chapter and pretend to be a mason.

Let's look at the order of events here:

mith breadcrumbs 107:31.

Roadbird gets up to 8 (one away), claims 107:8.

Curious why LML is asking me, rather than someone who is actually voting for him. I could put together a summary of why I thought he was scum; I've changed my mind since Wednesday though.

I am pretty sure he's innocent now.

I'm going to re-read tomorrow to see what I think about LB.

For me it was mostly his ninth vote on FD that struck me as scummy. Other than that, early bandwagoning and no real attempts to contribute.

I thought Coron and Kerplunk not posting for a long period and returning with a bandwagon vote and no content was also suspicious.

Nothing about Roadbird here. You would think that if you were a Psalm 107 verse, you would automatically go look up his claim and say *something* in your next post. Then you post again:

Hmm... just looked up his verse. I believe his claim.

Unvote: RoadBird
Vote: Kerplunk

For returning with a bandwagon vote without promised argumentation.

This says to me: the claim of Psalm 107 did not trigger anything in VitaminR's thoughts... but once he looked it up he saw an opportunity to pretend to be a mason. It's not until a few posts later that he even pins himself down to that:

True, there is just something about his claim.

It is very similar to my verse.

But I'm not sure Cadmium would not foresee that kind of confirmation.

This does not look like the actions of a mason trying to prevent an innocent from getting lynched. This looks like a hesitant SK.

This puzzled me too, until I noticed you gave it away yourself in your claim:

WIFOM, but why on earth would I bring up this possibility if it were a safe claim? Besides, as I mentioned immediately after the safe claim bit of that quote:

# All players will only be given a verse number instead of a complete role description. All verses can be found in the New International Version of the Bible.
# Additionally, they will be told if they have an ability and whether or not their choice is optional or required. If an ability requires more info concerning the choice, it will be given as well. All other details of the abilities and their effects are for the players to figure out for themselves.

There is nothing in there allowing for an SK to be given a safe claim. And why would there be safe claims in a game like this anyway? There's 30,000 roles to chose from!

And honestly, how does your role-hinting make sense otherwise? Why would a townie want to breadcrumb his verse? It makes perfect sense for scum setting up a claim.

Except we've now ruled out the safe claim possibility.

I disagree anyway. I often breadcrumb as town, and it makes even more sense in this game. Why would I want to back myself into a corner as scum, even if given a safe claim? I could just wait, use my safe claim if forced, or come up with something else if more appropriate to the situation, and the masons would never know the difference.

That's a weak argument. I couldn't have claimed earlier, I wasn't on.

You not being on doesn't make it a weak argument. It's simple probability. Scum, in claiming first in a situation like this, has a chance of screwing up. If the first to claim *doesn't* immediately give himself away, he is more likely to be telling the truth.

Consider the situation after my claim, and let's assume that there was a 50/50 chance of me being SK or cult from some objective observer's point of view. Here are the possibilities:

1. mith Cult, telling the truth, VitaminR SK. Prob: 1/2 (I have nothing to gain by lying as the cult, so if there's a 50% chance of me being cult, it's all in this case.)
2. mith SK, VitaminR Cult. Prob: 1/6
3. mith SK, CA Cult. Prob: 1/6
4. mith SK, Ameliaslay Cult. Prob: 1/6 (we'll assume for simplicity that if I'm lying, each of the others could be cult with equal probability).

Now, once VitaminR comes out and claims (sooner, actually; once Ameliaslay and CA don't counterclaim cult) we have ruled out 3 and 4. However, case 1 is *still* 3 times as likely as case 2; thus, the new probability of case 1 is 3/4, and the new probability of case 2 is 1/4. The objective observer has gained information from the fact that I am not immediately caught in a lie, and this makes it more likely that I am not, in fact, lying.

You had three choices to go after? That's just misrepresentation. CA was confirmed by LML.

Ok, granted, I wouldn't have chosen CA to go after if I were the SK. It's not a misrepresentation, however. The probability that is important is not based on how many choices I had if I'm lying, but on how many players could have been the real cult if I'm lying. It's probably a bit less likely that CA is cult, since it's possible he's unrecruitable, but the probability argument remains similar even if the numbers aren't quite the same.

The point is, mith, you had no other option.

How is this a point? I had no other option as it is, either: I, as the cultist, had to come out to get the SK lynched, or the SK wins.

Now this is really cheap. You have been around long enough to know the rules about outside and inside thread communication. Purposefully naively pretending in order to score credit points.

Huh?

1. I'm not talking about talking outside the thread during day. LML and I talked at night. If you're saying I can't have talked to LML, I'd love to see how you're going to explain where his comments about the cultist working with the town and your little made up plan come from.

2. There is nothing whatsoever in the rules regarding the quoting of night communication. Even if Cadmium decides to change those rules now, I am quite happy to paraphrase the entire conversation from both nights.

[mith]

mith, how sure are you that VitaminR is SK and not Ameliaslay?

100%. If he had claimed he was still just a psalmist and hadn't been recruited, then I might have had some small doubt that perhaps some game mechanic was preventing me from recruiting him. However, he claimed cult, and I know he's not; therefore, he's SK. I can't think of any other reason for him to lie.

[mith]

LML's comment

You keep talking about advantages to the cult, the cult getting a majority, things like that. You seem to be missing the most vital bit of this whole wacky scenario: LML was pro-town. He was not working toward a cult win, but toward a draw.

In order to be sure of that draw, LML needed a cultist alive he could trust. If I had died, while recruiting someone else (if you had been innocent, for example), he would still be forced to go after the SK, but could no longer be sure that the cultist wouldn't just recruit for the win. He had that assurance with me.

In fact, we weren't just playing for a draw between the cult and the town; we were playing to be the last two survivors.

Claiming/breadcrumbs

How would you know that there were identical psalms? Because they're all in chapter 107? It's not at all farfetched to think you might look at the context of the verse he claimed and see three others just like it in the chapter.

As for your hesistancy: It could simply be a matter of you being worried that all four of those verses were in the game (or even just that you might have to claim and claim one that someone else had).

Safe claim

Ah, misread. I read "All other details..." and assumed the rest said "of their roles" without actually reading. I suppose it doesn't completely rule out the possibility of a safe claim (though I still contend that "will only be given a verse number instead of a complete role description" implies that *only* this verse number and the stuff concerning abilities would be sent).

Still, a safe claim of a mason when there's only two real masons who have little reason to suspect a killer in their midst? Masons who are not even normal masons, and cannot even talk at night to try to feel each other out? If that's the case with you, I'm going to have even more to yell at Cadmium for than I thought.

Math

What assumptions have I made?

I made the assumption that it's 50/50 me being SK or cult after my claim; you can change those numbers without changing the argument. Whatever probability assigned to me being one or the other after my claim (as long as it's not 0/100 or 100/0), the probability of me being cult goes up once we have ruled out CA or Ameliaslay being cult (by your claim, and their lack of claim). This is simply mathematical fact.

I made the assumption that, if I were lying, it would be equally likely any of the three of you were the real cult; again, probably not quite the case, but changing the numbers a bit does not change the argument (unless, as before, the probabilities are 100/0/0 in some order).

This is not some skewed scenario. It's math.

Night Conversations

This is all irrelevant though. I have checked with Cadmium, and if CA still has doubts, I will be posting the logs when I get home.

[mith]

Oh, and one more thing. If LML *wasn't* trying to protect me with that comment, why not just come out with "VitaminR is cult"? Then if VitaminR dies, we have the situation VitaminR is going on about with LML confirmed, and if LML dies, VitaminR is confirmed as the cultist and lying-SK-mith has no chance. Making that comment *only* makes sense in the context of protecting me after I pretty much gave myself away with my quick vote.

[mith]

I'm home. Let me know if you want me to post the log, CA. It's nearly 5000 words, might make it the longest post in the history of Mafia.

[mith]

Done.

I've edited out LML's AIM name, as it's not the one he has in his profile (in case he doesn't want it public). I've also snipped in a couple places where we got off topic, and paraphrased a couple Mod PM quotes. Otherwise, it's all here.

Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Sun Mar 19 15:18:41 2006
[LML]: Just hammered Fritzler
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
GL mith: hammah!
GL mith: who started this hammer thing anyway?
[LML]: No clue
[LML]: Just know we're chat buddies now
GL mith: yup
GL mith: so what'd fritz tell you?
[LML]: a) He's a moron
[LML]: b) We're a cult.
[LML]: c) We're screwed.
GL mith: he is a moron, yes
GL mith: i assume we can't recruit
[LML]: who knows.
GL mith: if we can, we should be fine. we know the psalm verses can be recruited.
GL mith: so i doubt we can
[LML]: I yelled at him.
[LML]: Yelled at him.
[LML]: He really messed that up.
GL mith: indeed. no one was even thinking cult until he pulled that
GL mith: you think CA is scum?
[LML]: PS: Methinks CA is scum
GL mith: heh
GL mith: it's a very similar claim to what he did in married to the mob
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: Once bitten, twice shy.
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i can't believe i made such a silly slip
[LML]: when?
GL mith: the tss thing
GL mith: i don't know if mackay picked up on it or not
[LML]: oh yeah.
[LML]: i hope not.
GL mith: it wasn't even because i'd been recruited, i just didn't check
GL mith: hm
GL mith: i mean, we're down to 8 now
[LML]: so... i need to keep ca alive
GL mith: and none of the psalm verse are dead
GL mith: *verses
GL mith: there may not be 4 of us, though
[LML]: there's.. not
[LML]: there's 2 of us.
GL mith: 4 pslam verses
GL mith: psalm
GL mith: bah
GL mith: roadbird, vitaminR, and i all are psalm 107:something
GL mith: there's 4 identical verses
[LML]: okay...
[LML]: hopefully, we can recruit.
GL mith: if we can, we're fine
GL mith: if not... tricky
[LML]: Tricky aint the word.
[LML]: That's why I was trying to make sure that Fritz didn't out you.
[LML]: by the way...
GL mith: yeah, that's why i put the 4th on too
[LML]: I have a diabolical plan.
GL mith: normally there i'd wait for ameliaslay and roadbird
[LML]: Fritz told me who his other friends were...
[LML]: no...
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: that wont work.
[LML]: hmmm
GL mith: ah
GL mith: no, it probably wouldn't
GL mith: they'd just lynch you first to see if you were legit
[LML]: My BS post posrked.
[LML]: worked*
[LML]: That was my worst post ever.
GL mith: which one?
[LML]: I was at such a loss there...
[LML]: 707, I believe
GL mith: there was lots of BS there
[LML]: 709
GL mith: ah, yeah
GL mith: you really were a cop, yeah?
[LML]: (nods)
GL mith: how sure are we you were naive?
[LML]: because I was recruited.
[LML]: but...
GL mith: that doesn't matter
[LML]: I could be wrong
[LML]: So...
[LML]: time for a gambit.
GL mith: if a naive cop can be recruited, so can a sane cop
[LML]: can we agree that CA is 95% scum?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: I'm going to out myself.
[LML]: get the scum.
GL mith: could work
GL mith: there's got to be two of them, right?
[LML]: right.
[LML]: but...
[LML]: It'll be in your hands.
GL mith: *if* you're sane, the other one is ameliaslay
[LML]: I had the same idea.
GL mith: which makes mackay the psalmist possibly, which screws me over
[LML]: except Mackay still looks scummy.
GL mith: thing is, if it's just me, we can't win
GL mith: only draw
[LML]: better than nothing, eh? Fritz took me away from the winning team, it's your turn
GL mith: hehe
GL mith: i don't think there can be a 4th psalm verse
GL mith: there's got to be two scum, yeah?
[LML]: Has to be.
GL mith: and there's got to be a vig or SK or whatever the perisher is
[LML]: 2 scum, 1 SK
GL mith: and we know it's not me, you, roadbird, vitaminR, or tss
GL mith: unless tss is scum
[LML]: TSS is next on my list for likely scum
GL mith: it doesn't fit with the numbers thing, though
GL mith: was ender recruited or not? i forgot to ask
[LML]: we're the ONLY two.
GL mith: i mean before you
GL mith: ender died night 4
[LML]: I never knew.
GL mith: gah. if fritzler did and didn't tell you, i'm going to be even more annoyed
[LML]: nono....
[LML]: It was Fuldu, Vismaior, CVismaior, LML, Mith
GL mith: oh, so he was telling the truth about that
GL mith: ok
GL mith: so enderX was some other type of scum
GL mith: here's a wild and crazy thought
GL mith: enderX was the perisher
GL mith: tss took over for him night 4
GL mith: with ender "suiciding"
[LML]: hmmm...
[LML]: or could we be dealing with two scum groups?
GL mith: perhaps
GL mith: a two person scum group, first one that dies turns up innocent and comes back if the other dies?

[snip]

GL mith: that's quite a bit weaker than a four person, but stronger than an SK

[snip]

GL mith: bah, i can't see any way out of you getting lynched
[LML]: Of course not.
[LML]: Unless, on death, I'm not red.
[LML]:
GL mith:
GL mith: i'm surprised i'm not dead yet
GL mith: after coming out as a mason and then the cop clearing me on top of that
[LML]: Ahh.. naive cop
GL mith: we were doing pretty awful as a town, huh
GL mith: if not for the perisher, we'd have already lost
[LML]: oh yeah.
GL mith: and what was fritz thinking?
GL mith: trying to recruit a possible hider? twice?
[LML]: awful play.
GL mith: *after* so many townies/masons were out, too
[LML]: I told him to claim roleblocker.
[LML]: and with one kill...
[LML]: it would have worked.
[LML]: night 3
[LML]:
GL mith: he shouldn't have claimed anything
GL mith: oh, does he have the role he claimed?
GL mith: or something else?
[LML]: he's a cultist.. he claimed a different verse.
GL mith: did he tell you what verse?
GL mith: guess i'll find out in a minute anyway
[LML]: yeah, hold on.. lemme get my notebook.
GL mith: cadmium's on
GL mith: let's hope this isn't one of those cults where the two of us commit suicide after he dies
[LML]: Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character."
[LML]: 1 Corinthians 15:33
GL mith: ah
[LML]: and...
[LML]: he didn't know he was a cult.
[LML]: HOW AWFUL IS THAT?
GL mith: haha
GL mith: wow
GL mith: he came up purple
[LML]: I hate that.... oh no.
[LML]: OH NO
[LML]: OH NO
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: In death, so will I.
[LML]: I need to suicide and take out Amelia and Commodore with me.
GL mith: right, let's talk this through
GL mith: tonight, we get two deaths
GL mith: hopefully not us
GL mith: CA can't kill you
[LML]: I'm going to claim cultist, ability to keep my powers. I'm the only cultist.
[LML]: going to claim Amelia as guilty.
GL mith: no! better
GL mith: wait, no, that won't work
[LML]: why not?
GL mith: fritz claimed he recruited someone else already didn't he
GL mith: no, i mean what i was thinking
GL mith: i was thinking: claim you guys tried to recruit amelia last night
[LML]: I was thinking that too..
GL mith: don't claim you still have powers
[LML]: okay
GL mith: i'm not sure about saying you're the only one
GL mith: maybe wait til asked
GL mith: maybe i'll ask, even
[LML]: I will be asked.
[LML]: sounds good.
[LML]: claiming one and only.
[LML]: by the way...
[LML]: you're going to have to make the correlation that CA must be scum.
GL mith: i can do that
GL mith: i almost mentioned the married thing today
GL mith: it'll be natural coming from me, i helped mod
[LML]:
[LML]: Thanks for that again
GL mith: no prob
[LML]: i'm praying that I can convert now.
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, there is still some small chance we can win
GL mith: we could end up in a prisoner's dilemma situation
[LML]: I'm harmless!
[LML]: I cant kill!
[LML]:
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: this go on about how stupid fritzler was
GL mith: and how you know you can't win
[LML]: and please, don't die.
GL mith: how you'll accept a draw with the town if they let you
[LML]: I played gamn good pro-town anyway.
GL mith: but you'll understand if they lynch you after the scum are gone, you'll still count it as a town win in your heart
[LML]: aww...
[LML]: that's such bull.
[LML]:
GL mith:
[LML]: I wanted to KILL fritzler.
GL mith: thing is, we might get lucky with the night kills
[LML]: i'm an easy lynch.
[LML]: I can see YOU being targeted.
GL mith: well, yes
[LML]: but...
GL mith: but i think the killers will try to find each other
GL mith: and i'm obviously not a killer
[LML]: could the damn mafia target each other about now?
[LML]:
GL mith: actually, i think what we want is for the perisher to die
GL mith: but not either mafia
[LML]: Fritz didnt want to recruit you.. said it was too obvious.
[LML]: I threatened his life.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: he should've recruited me night 2, we'd have won this so easy
[LML]: of course.
[LML]: instead, Vismaior twice?
[LML]: moron.
[LML]:
GL mith: but yeah, if both mafia are alive, the town is *forced* to lynch mafia
GL mith: you probably still die the next night, but maybe the scum get stupid
[LML]: I'm going to die.
[LML]: That's not a question.
[LML]: Now, I'm trying to maximize our ability to do OK here.
GL mith:
GL mith: we need to ask cadmium what happens if it's down to me and 2 innocents
GL mith: right, so both scum are still alive, you come out after them
GL mith: what if one dies?
[LML]: go after the other.
[LML]: Eliminate the scum ASAP
GL mith: even with the perisher still in the mix?
[LML]: not much I can do, eh?
[LML]: still, only 1 NK to deal with.
GL mith: well, if CA dies, and is in fact scum, you come out anyway, no question
GL mith: but if the other scum dies...
[LML]: and implicate Amelia.
[LML]: maybe I should be quiet
[LML]: Live another day?
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: there is that 5% that CA isn't scum
[LML]: So:
[LML]: If CA does and Scum => Come out.
GL mith: if the lynch heads your direction, you just come clean anyway
[LML]: If AS dies and scum => Shut mouth.
[LML]: Otherwise, play by ear.
GL mith: yeah
[LML]: easy enough.
[LML]: what if the perisher dies tonight w/ an innocent.
GL mith: then you have to come out
GL mith: if both scum are alive, the town has to lynch one of them
GL mith: even if the perisher is still alive, i don't want to take a chance on the scum killing the perisher the next night and losing that way
[LML]: sounds good.
GL mith: and i'll try not to do anything stupid
[LML]: I feel confident with the two of us together.
[LML]: WHOA
[LML]: WHOA!
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: LoudmouthLee wrote:
Can I recruit?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML is still pro-town.]

GL mith: whoa
GL mith: maybe my wacky theory was right
GL mith: i guess i should check with cadmium too
[LML]: yeah.
[LML]: you should.
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: it's possible i'm cult and you're not. i only mention the possibility because if that's the case, i can't win anyway
GL mith: but we need to know, because if that's the case, then CA is probably telling the truth
GL mith: the way cadmium worded that makes me think otherwise.
[LML]: PS: If you are..
[LML]: Tell me.
[LML]: I'll shoot for a split.
GL mith: i will
GL mith: like i said, best i could do is draw anyway
GL mith: pah, i know you're on cadmium, answer me
GL mith: no answer yet, i see him on too
GL mith: pah
[LML]: you're cult?
GL mith: pah at the no answer
GL mith: i don't know, he hasn't answered
GL mith: it doesn't make much sense either way, does it?
GL mith: if neither of us are cult... what was fritz?
[LML]: not at all....
[LML]: I'm confused.
GL mith: and if i am, why didn't cadmium tell you that last night?
GL mith: right, i'm not cult
GL mith: what the hell was fritz?
GL mith: this makes no sense
[LML]: we're in TROUBLE
[LML]: and I hate Cad so much right now.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: no joke
[LML]: the hate is coming out of my ears.
GL mith: so do we still think CA is scum?
[LML]: Hell if I know.
[LML]: We're masons now.
[LML]: That's cool.
GL mith: 4 masons
GL mith: 8 players
GL mith: should be a win, if not for the double kills
[LML]: So....
[LML]: how are we going to get the town to believe this?
GL mith: i have no idea
[LML]: OMG
[LML]: I know.
[LML]: are you SURE you aren't cult?
GL mith: he said "Nope."
GL mith: i can ask him again if you want
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Original message after LML was recruited, saying due to CA's actions (without naming CA) he had same alignment.]
GL mith: was that in your original PM?
[LML]: when I lost my cop ability.
GL mith: i didn't get told that
GL mith: i just got "You are now able to communicate with Fritzler and LoudmouthLee at night."
[LML]: I'm gonna keep you alive anyway....
GL mith: i am oh so confused
[LML]: but...
[LML]: CA's legit.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: so who does that leave?
GL mith: AS, Mackay, tss?
[LML]: Amelia = Scum
[LML]: Mackay = InHim = Scum
[LML]: TSS = Perisher.
[LML]: I will never know if I was naive or sane.
[LML]: You were innocent.
GL mith: you were naive, you checked inHim
[LML]: Vis was innocent.
[LML]: Right...
GL mith: unless mackay is the perisher
GL mith: but that makes even less sense
[LML]: But we have no proof, right now, that InHim was scum.
GL mith: hm
[LML]: don't make me FoS you...
[LML]:
GL mith: hm?
[LML]: I'm pro-town cult and you're anti-town cult. It seems somewhat obvious to me. Again, Mith. I implore you. If you know something that I don't.. say it now before we get deeper into this.
GL mith: i'm so mad at fritz
GL mith: actually, i'm trying to find out if i can re-recruit you
[LML]: Why'd you lie to me?
[LML]:
GL mith: it's what i do
[LML]: PS: I caught you.
[LML]:
GL mith: of course you caught me
GL mith: i didn't know i was scum until just now!
[LML]: do you have a recruit?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: awesome.
[LML]: go go scummy.
GL mith: we can find out who the scum are
[LML]: wow.
[LML]: this is the oddest masonry convo ever.
GL mith:
[LML]: bar none.
GL mith: did you really not know you were still the same alignment?
GL mith: or were you just trying to make sure of me?
[LML]: the latter.
[LML]:
GL mith: there was no way i was getting out of it anyway
[LML]: Wanted to see you try
GL mith: i couldn't very well say my PM said the same as yours
[LML]: You're pretty damn good.
[LML]: So I forgive you
[LML]: Recommendation.
[LML]: DO NOT recruit me tonight.
GL mith: i can't
[LML]: Damnit.
[LML]: So...
[LML]: what do we do.
GL mith: we lynch the scum
[LML]: You tell me.
GL mith: neither of us win otherwise
[LML]: you have recruits!
[LML]: Damnit Mith.
[LML]: \Stop it.
GL mith: which i can't use
[LML]:
[LML]: on me!
[LML]: You have recruits on others.
GL mith: yes
GL mith: are you going to let me use them?
GL mith: you're still part of the cult
GL mith: pro-town or not
GL mith: so you'll find out if i recruit anyone
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: we're both screwed.
[LML]: is Cad on AIM?
GL mith: not that i know of
[LML]: I hate him.
GL mith: loi
GL mith: we're fine
[LML]: ok Mith.
GL mith: we'll figure out the scum
[LML]: I lose!
[LML]: NO!
[LML]: Stop it.
[LML]: My win condition is with the town.
[LML]: not with the cult.
GL mith: so we'll draw
GL mith: you're missing the point
GL mith: if we don't lynch the scum, we both lose anyway
[LML]: Okay.
[LML]: Lets lynch AmeliaSlay.
GL mith: we get it down to three
GL mith: me, you, scum
GL mith: we lynch scum
GL mith: we draw
GL mith: that's the only solution i see
[LML]: oh my god I hate CA
GL mith: loi
[LML]: This would be SO much easier if I were part of the cult.
[LML]: Hmmm...
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: WAIT!
[LML]: Y'know what?
[LML]: Recruit tonight.
GL mith: why?
[LML]: We need to get CA to target me again.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: If CA targets me again...
[LML]: I may turn back to the cult.
GL mith: CA said he was one-shot
[LML]: how the hell would he know that?
GL mith: ~shrug~
[LML]: Didn't we all get the same random PM?
[LML]: with just the verse?
GL mith: probably cadmium told him after he chose you that he had succeeded and no longer had a choice
GL mith: seriously
GL mith: and i normally wouldn't say this, but i'm so annoyed with fritz and cad
GL mith: let's go for a draw
[LML]: deal.
[LML]: PS:
[LML]: You fuck me here...
[LML]: and you're gonna be a marked man.
[LML]:
GL mith: the same goes for you
GL mith: anyway, i'm likely to get killed anyway
[LML]: by scum.
GL mith: ...subtract one of those "anyway"s
GL mith: exactly
GL mith: can i use my little heart wrenching speech i prepared for you earlier?
[LML]: PS: I wait for the day we're scum together.
[LML]: Sure
GL mith: fritz is a moron and even if the town decides to kill me, i'll consider it a win in my heart
[LML]: i'm still pissed you lied to me
[LML]: because, if I didnt double check, we would have lynched CA
[LML]:
[LML]: "double check"
[LML]:
[LML]: y'know what?
GL mith: loi
GL mith: i just wanted the time to think about it
[LML]: I can sacrafice myself.
GL mith: i'd probably have come clean anyway
[LML]: and still play on the side of the cult.
[LML]: that may ruin the game.
GL mith: sac yourself how?
[LML]: Ask for my lynch to clear CA
[LML]: I get lynched.
[LML]: CA is a confirmed townie.
[LML]: shot at night.
GL mith: and the scum probably win
GL mith: we don't have time for that
[LML]: and you have 3 cultists.
[LML]: bah
[LML]: you're right
[LML]: do we tell the truth here?
GL mith: would they believe it if we did?
[LML]: and whatif the scum is smart and stops NKing?
GL mith: why would they stop?
GL mith: it wouldn't buy them anything
[LML]: to make it look like we have eliminated all the scum.
GL mith: we know we haven't
[LML]: so we lynch incorrectly a cult member...
GL mith: we know the wood verse is still out there
[LML]: So, only wood and perisher?
GL mith: i still think there's a 4th with the numbers group
GL mith: but maybe not
GL mith: 3 just seems so weak
[LML]: So...
GL mith: considering how strong the cult should be with a half-competent fritz
[LML]: you're telling me (and I really need to know this)
[LML]: that 1 cult 1 town = draw according to Cad?
GL mith: oh, i never asked that
GL mith: but i can't kill
GL mith: i'll check, of course
[LML]: Next thing. Try to recruit tonight.
[LML]: We *should* be able to ascertain who the last scum is if it is not CA
GL mith: i will
GL mith: for one thing, i have to
[LML]: My guess, still, is Mackay.
GL mith: for another, you might get killed
[LML]: Oh!
[LML]: Thanks for telling me now.
[LML]: I ahte you.
[LML]: HATE YOU
[LML]: what draw were you talking about?
[LML]: YOU LIED AGAIN!
[LML]:
GL mith: i didn't lie!
[LML]: How could we draw if you, at the end, have 3 minions...
[LML]: doh
[LML]: I hate this game.
[LML]: I am REALLY pissed.
[LML]: Can I just be a cultie.
GL mith: i have to *try* to recruit
[LML]: Please?
[LML]: try and recruit Mackay.
GL mith: that's my point
[LML]: Use your powers for good.
[LML]:
GL mith: i point at a scum, and i fail, we know they're scum
[LML]: and with that, I need some booze.
GL mith: anyway, as i said, if i recruit successfully, you'll know about it
GL mith: since you're still in the cult
[LML]: PS: Can we ream out Cad and Fritzler after the game?
GL mith: please
[LML]: thank you.
[LML]: Cad for creating this mess, Fritz for being way too incompetent day 1-4
GL mith: what would you have done if he hadn't been so incompetent?
[LML]: Lost.
[LML]: Gracefully.
GL mith: heh

[snip]

[LML]: I cannot believe.
[LML]: I'm a pro-town cultist
[LML]: in an anti-town cult.
GL mith: an anti-town cult of one
[LML]: and we're...
[LML]: coexisting
[LML]:
[LML]: PS: If I die...
[LML]: WIN ONE FOR THE GIPPER!
GL mith: heh
GL mith: ditto

[snip]

GL mith: in fact, if i die, i want you to get things into a prisoner's dilemma, and end up as the sole survivor
GL mith: and claim victory for the cult

[snip]

[LML]: That's going to be nuts.

[snip]

[LML]: How can we do that.....

[snip]

[LML]: Anyway...
[LML]: I have to run for now.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: If I come up with anything else...
[LML]: I'll IM you.
GL mith: alright
[LML]: peace.
GL mith: and i'll let you know for sure who i'm trying to recruit
GL mith: in case i die
GL mith: but assume mackay for now
[LML]: ooh.
[LML]: I asked a good question.
[LML]: and got a good answer.
GL mith: cadmium said it'd be a draw, btw
GL mith: what's that?
[LML]: When i get killed, since I'm a pro-town CULT MEMBER... do I set listed in purple?
[LML]: [Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: LML would turn up black.]
GL mith: black is just a really dark purple anyway
[LML]: well...
[LML]: pro-town.
[LML]: okay, peace.
GL mith: cya
GL mith: i checked: if i die, the recruit will still go through
GL mith: so if it doesn't, it's because mackay's scum
GL mith: (or whoever)
[LML]: Was TSS revived AFTER LyingBrian was killed?
[LML]: wand was it the day after?
GL mith: lyingbrian was lynched day 2
GL mith: tss revived night/day 4
[LML]: hmmm
[LML]: ok, bbl
Session Close ([LML]): Sun Mar 19 18:08:42 2006



Session Start (AIM - glmith:[LML]): Thu Mar 23 22:34:05 2006
[LML]: sir?
*** Auto-response sent to [LML]: I am currently away from the computer.
[LML]: hmmm.
[LML]: You here?
[LML]: We need a chat, mith
GL mith: stop sending me messages at 5am
[LML]: where are you?
GL mith: UK
GL mith: what do we need to chat about?
[LML]: why'd i think you were in texas?
GL mith: i'm from texas
GL mith: and am there on breaks
[LML]: So...
[LML]: you tried to recruit Mackay...
GL mith: yes?
[LML]: and tomorrow...
[LML]: you're recruiting Amelia.
GL mith: i'm recruiting vitaminR, actually
[LML]: no.
[LML]: why?
GL mith: amelia has to be scum, yes?
[LML]: Mith.
[LML]: I will call for your death if you recruit Vitamin R.
GL mith: either vitaminR or myself will almost certainly be killed
GL mith: i have to preserve the cult for the draw
[LML]: Sir.
GL mith: you will have your draw, as promised, even if i succeed
[LML]: I was not playiong with the CULT
[LML]: I was playing with you!
[LML]: and no.
[LML]: I wont.
GL mith: yes, you will
[LML]: Because there's no more kills.
[LML]: and VitaminR converts CA
[LML]: and I LOSE
[LML]: No die.
[LML]: no dice.
GL mith: huh?
[LML]: So..
[LML]: you convert Vitamin
[LML]: you die.
[LML]: SK gets lynched.
GL mith: then we don't draw anyway
[LML]: However....
GL mith: so don't come at me with this "i was playing for a draw with you" nonsense
[LML]: What the hell are you talking about?
GL mith: it's not a sure thing that CA can even be recruited
GL mith: just listen for a moment
[LML]: I was going to keep my end of the bargain.
[LML]: no.
[LML]: you listen.
[LML]: You recruit Amelia.
[LML]: If she gets lynched.
GL mith: you're really not getting this, are you. if i recruit amelia, and i get killed, i lose. period.
[LML]: but..
GL mith: i am playing for a draw
[LML]: by recruiting VitaminR...
[LML]: HOW?
GL mith: i recruit vitaminR
GL mith: *if* i die, the cult is still alive
GL mith: whether you live up to the draw with him or not is up to you
GL mith: if i *don't* die, vitaminR probably will. and if we both live, i will still honor the draw
[LML]: how so?
[LML]: will you vote VitaminR?
GL mith: tomorrow?
[LML]: no.
GL mith: the next day, yes
GL mith: absolutely
[LML]: I have your word and your honor?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: Don't make me really hate you. I worked way too hard for the quick Mackay lynch.
[LML]:
GL mith: so long as you understand why i have to recruit VR
[LML]: I guess I do.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: i'll probably get killed anyway
[LML]: I'm just...
[LML]: concerned, Mith.
GL mith: it's so obvious i'm the cultist, in spite of your denial
[LML]: Well.. you jumped lithe the cultist

[snip]

[LML]: Ok...
[LML]: last time...
[LML]: I have your word.
[LML]: correct?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: do i have yours?
[LML]: do I have your word that, if your recruit on VitaminK is successful, you will not recruit the next day?
GL mith: yes
GL mith: or rather, i'll recruit you
[LML]: okay.
[LML]: Or...
[LML]: err..
[LML]: Also...
GL mith: or myself
GL mith: i think i'm required to recruit *someone*
[LML]: Do I have your word that you will vote to kill VitaminR?
GL mith: yes
[LML]: IYou have my word that, if alive, I will vote to kill CA
GL mith: ok
[LML]: PS: This is the most fucked up endgame ever.
GL mith: no kidding
[LML]: also... a note of scare...
[LML]: From: Cadmium
To: LoudmouthLee
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:50 pm
Subject: Re: If Mith Dies...
LoudmouthLee wrote:
do I still find out his result of culting?


[Mod quote removed. Paraphrase: Good work, you'll know if he recruits, but when he dies he might not.]

GL mith: hm
[LML]: he said when.
[LML]: not if.
GL mith: i told you i'm likely to die
[LML]: it's ok.
[LML]: if you die and you're unsuccessful to recruit... the cult loses.
GL mith: which is why i'm trying to recruit VR instead of amelia
[LML]: the town lynches amelia bedilia, and the town wins.
GL mith: if i die and just fail because of that, there's not much i can do about it anyway
GL mith: out of my hands there
[LML]: right.
[LML]: send in the recruit.
[LML]: i'm fwding this convo to cad for fun.
GL mith: alright
GL mith: back to bed for me
GL mith: later
[LML]: you send it in?
GL mith: yeah
Session Close ([LML]): Fri Mar 24 06:07:44 2006

[mith]

Your plan will not work. I can recruit, whether I die or not. Ameliaslay will become cult, and VitaminR will die, and we have our draw either way. You gain nothing from this, CA.

In fact, VitaminR, I'd rather have a three-way draw than get killed. Dead or not, I'll still be a part of a cult draw, but so what? I like surviving. I'll offer you one better: so long as you don't kill, you stay alive; eventually Cadmium will declare this a draw. As soon as you kill me, you get lynched. CA won't lynch you with me alive, and I can't lynch you without him. If I die, you're dead, and you lose. You've played a great game, don't settle for a loss just because of some ridiculous grudge against the cult (where does that come from, anyway? we're both evil! we should be working together, if anything).

[mith]

Oh, but in case I do die, since I won't be able to speak to Ameliaslay after today: If VitaminR does kill me, do make sure to try recruiting CA after you guys lynch VR. We're only guessing that he can't be recruited.

[mith]

(And one final thing. The "the townies might help you out in a later game" thing is total BS at best, and an awful form of meta-gaming at worst. Cross-game deals are completely against the spirit of the game. But I'll save that rant for the post-game.)

[mith]

If I can recruit both of you, he loses either way.

If I *can't* recruit you, CA, he gets a draw.

Don't roll your eyes at me.

It's worth a try, isn't it, VR? If CA's right, you lose anyway. If Cadmium forces you to kill, then so be it; it's worth a shot, right? But if CA's wrong, if Cadmium doesn't force you to kill, you get a draw. Heck, shoot at a corpse, he probably never specified that you have to target living players anyway. Or the Mod, even.

The reason he's giving as justification for killing me is BS. There is no reason whatsoever for you to prefer a town win to a cult win. Flavor-wise, a cult win makes *more* sense for you; we're working toward similar goals. If you must kill, kill CA. But only if it comes to that. Until then, play out of your best interests. A draw is better than a loss. Don't let CA pressure you into something truly idiotic.

[mith]

Right, going to bed, so one final post tonight.

Ameliaslay:

Don't put on that last no lynch vote just yet. It's clear that unless CA has a sudden change of heart and takes his two-way draw now instead of possibly later (or possibly three-way, if VR is smart), this will be a no lynch, but I'm having fun arguing about it and since VR is the one making the decision I'd like to see what he has to say and respond. There is no gain from you rushing to a no lynch anyway.

If I die, you'll be the lone cultist. You and CA will lynch VR tomorrow, because otherwise you both lose and VR wins. Then you can try recruiting CA. Worst case, you can't, we draw with the town, but do try.

I have faith (ironically) VitaminR won't kill me though. He's a clever guy. If he kills me, he dies tomorrow.

I'll vote no lynch tomorrow sometime, after everyone's said their piece; unless CA changes his mind, of course. A two-way is better than a three-way after all, CA; or, heaven forbid, being forcably recruited into a cult you despise, still a very real possibility. (Sorry VR, but you understand that I'd rather get this over with today, instead of going into night, just in case I'm wrong and you *do* perish me. Doesn't change the fact that if CA doesn't take me up on it, not killing is in your best interests.)

[mith]

I apologize, I posted before I read your latest post...

No problem... we'll always have twilight...

It doesn't look like there's much more to say to VitaminR anyway. He knows what to do (or not do) tonight.

[mith]

You have chosen... wisely.

I assume we'll have to at least try to recruit CA before Cadmium will declare this a draw. Assuming I don't succeed, and I think that's pretty likely, you'll have your draw with another no kill, VR.

Vote: No lynch

[mith]

Indeed. If I had tried to recruit CA, and you killed me anyway, the cult would've been dead if the recruit failed.

[mith]

Stupid unrecruitable CA...

Good game everyone. Post-game comments later.

[mith]

You were surely a hider, or you'd have been recruited.

[mith]

Should I bring that up here or start a thread in the mafia discussion forum?

Start a thread, I was going to start one myself anyway, just haven't gotten to it. I'll start a thread on playing for secondary goals, as well, since that came up too.

It didn't matter here, of course. CA could've offered his deal without knowing for sure which of us was the SK, and I would've done the same thing from there.

Oh, btw. Were you a Psalm verse, VR, or something else?

[mith]

For the record, I'm not allowing it in any future games

Eh, wait til we have the discussion.

[mith]

I didn't buy for a second that you were going to uphold the draw that you promised LML.

I guess we'll never know for sure.

I didn't figure you'd buy it though; I was already prepared with the no lynch scenario. (In fact, I'd also considered another plan rather than coming out with the chat log as a chance to prove I was the real cult: no lynch, and then VitaminR can't kill me without proving he's the SK and getting lynched, and he has to guess which player I'll try to recruit or the cult wins. The problem of course is that we all suspected that CA was unrecruitable, so the chances of me recruiting the player he didn't kill were slim, so it probably wouldn't have actually proved anything; still, it might've been worth a try.)

It's fortunate I got back home before Ameliaslay posted though. Perhaps we need a little discussion on quick-lynching (or quick-no-lynching). I'm really liking the way Verbose is working in that respect; everyone knows the deadline well in advance, and votes won't end day early, so people not being on at a specific time does not affect the outcome.

[mith]

However, I had Mith by the testes. He couldn't mess with me, as I had a feeling that only one more person was recruitable. (Turns out that none were.)

Ameliaslay was recruitable (and recruited).

[mith]

::ducks::

It's on, now.

This is the FIFTH time I have been affected by the freaking scum-in-the-masons routine. At least I finally survived one.

[mith]

LML could have revealed me as the cultist in hopes that I would get killed and fail in my recruit; I don't know if VitaminR was unsure who the cultist was or what, maybe he would've killed LML anyway, but maybe not.

He also could have sold me out and gotten me lynched, while pointing out Mackay as one scum and shooting for some variation of a Prisoner's Dilemma, but that would've been risky.

[mith]

I really need to be working. Stop distracting me.

I'll post a more complete post-game commentary at some point, but if I post again before tomorrow afternoon, yell at me.