TT; Book 1: Bible Verse Mafia - Game over!

[Mackay]

*waves to everyone*

I have read the thread already, but I may need to do so again. Coming out of day 1 it seemed obvious to me that mith was mafia. I read through a long way with this preconception, only to see him have a corresponding verse to other players,

and

be cleared by a cop.

So, like I said, I want to read again. But for now, here is a list.

* Ameliaslay (replacing Coron)
* Commodore Amazing
* Fritzler
* Mackay (replacing inHimshallibe)
* LoudmouthLee (replacing Iammars)
* mith
* RoadBird
* the silent speaker - resurrected night 4
* VitaminR

IIRC, we have mith, Roadbird, and VitaminR all confirmed-ish by one another's verses. We have myself and mith again cleared by the claimed cop, LML, who appears to have lost his powers. I am willing to assume for now, at least, that the silent speaker is still innocent following his resurrection (however, the Job link makes me rather uneasy).

Provided LML is being truthful, we only have three options remaining. That would be Fritzler, Commodore Amazing, and Ameliaslay.

Fritzler's behaviour yesterday, obviously, rings huge scum bells. But it also raises a lot of questions, if he

is

scum. He made the statement "BTW-anyone who gets a pm from me-don't mention it in thread from now on". This basically gives him an out if he were lying about the PM - he could simply claim that nobody was willing to admit having received a PM due to the fact that he asked them not to. But this kind of lie would indicate that he was not able to send PMs at all, and seeing as LML backed him up, this would necessitate their being evil together.

But if they were, why would they make it so blatant? Besides which, I am still inclined to trust LML despite a couple of things which have made me uncomfortable now. He gave three innocent results - I cannot see his verse being naive - and due to the fact that there are two killing groups out there (perishing and hitting with stuff, yes?) he could not have

known

of the innocence of anyone outside his group, were he mafia.

Which then leads me to the conclusion that Fritzler

can

send PMs. But if THIS is the case, why does he not want the information revealed/people talking about it/confirming him? And why did he insist so strongly upon VisMaior's death?! Is there such a thing as an evil PM-sender?

Gah, this is all so circular. I do think, however, that Fritzler owes us a big explanation. I would also like to know more about how LML allegedly lost his powers. For caution's sake. Is recruitment a possibility?

[Mackay]

Did quick post-filter. I still trust LML.
Therefore, I just don't KNOW about Fritz. Gah.

I want to take a closer look at all three unconfirmed.

[Mackay]

(sorry for the triple post) Would also like to hear more from the silent speaker.

[Mackay]

Oh boy!

I was labouring under the impression that there were two groups of baddies - one which killed by whacking with things, and one which killed by "perishing". But the "perisher" has hit two seemingly separate groups of baddies. This did not even click until now.

The presence of a cult seems more and more likely. My apologies to CA, who mentioned it first. (I only noticed because I was going through his posts looking for things to attack)

Forget what I said about the three unconfirmed - if there is a cult, everyone's a suspect again. And my prime suspect for "cultist" is LoudmouthLee. However, I do not wish to vote him, as obviously there would be an original 'recruiter' out there who got LML into the cult after he got three choices in. If this is the case, then I am in agreement that the "perisher" is, in fact, a vig.

Oh! OH!!

Vote: Fritzler

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that he "knew" VisMaior was evil because he couldn't recruit him! How'd'you like that?!

Once we kill the cult recruiter, then we can concentrate on catching mafia. (IMO at least it's more important to first get the person who is able to "convert" the entire town to evil, yes? Once a recruiter is dead we at least know the cult will expand no further)

heh... just previewed the post... you can see my mind randomly leaping from idea to idea as it progresses!

[Mackay]

N1 choice fuldu

[*]Fuldu -

Numbers 35:17

- perished to death Night 3

So let me get this straight.

- You recruited Fuldu, who was evil, on night 1.
- You made an unsuccessful attempt to recruit VisMaior on night 2. However, you say nothing about this on day 2.
- You made another unsuccessful recruiting attempt on night 3. In the morning, Fuldu, who you allegedly recruited, turns out to be evil.
- Having had a successful attempt, then, at recruiting someone evil, and an unsuccessful attempt at recruiting someone else, you continue to keep your mouth shut.
- You recruit a claimed cop on night 4, thus stripping him of his powers.
- On Day 4, two days after the first unsuccessful attempt, and after the person you allegedly DID recruit turns out evil, you decide to go rabidly after the person who you were unable to recruit.

Is this really, honestly, what you are saying happened?!

confirm vote: Fritzler

[Mackay]

Crap, I've got to go to work.

Just quickly: Just how many bad guys, then, do you think are still out there, Fritz?

[Mackay]

Crap, I've got to go to work.

Just quickly: Just how many bad guys, then, do you think are still out there, Fritz?

Well, there's nine alive, I know me and lml are town.

We have either three or four masons.

That's 5-6 pro town players right there. Plus TSS was pro town.

6-7. So 2-3 maximum. I'm thinking two, one from a main group, and then the perisher, the SK.

So there were the half-masons with the identical verses AND the "recruiting masons" led by Fritz?

What is your opinion of EnderX's alignment?

VitaminR, you're a semi-member of a mason group yourself. Do you really believe that there is another?

More to say - REALLY gotta go. What's a baller?

P.S. Thanks Fritz!

[Mackay]

I'm back.

Would you be told of an alignment shift in this game anyways?

What makes you say that?

[Mackay]

Fritz:

You're welcome. (for what?)

The thankyou was in response to your well-wishes with regard to my work shift. While we're talking common courtesy, I should have apologised for my misinterpretation of your earlier post. All you said was "night 1 Fuldu", I did not pick up the implication that it was unsuccessful due to his being evil.

That being said, I think you're lying.

You avoided my question about EnderX's alignment. What I would like to know is,

why

was he evil - what about his verse made him evil? He has that red text happening, but the Job verse seems quite innocent, or at least not evil. He was obviously not related to the "perishing" killer, seeing as that's the one that got him. Do you believe, then, that he was somehow lumped in with the Numbers verses, which quite blatantly spoke of people wielding weapons? This makes no sense to me either. And yet, there has been no killer other than Numbers methods and "perishing". Do you believe that EnderX and the silent speaker are an independent evil group on their own?! That makes no sense, where is the killing/recruiting?

No, EnderX reads to me like a fairly 'innocent' verse, unrelated to either killing group. And yet he was evil. My conclusion is that he was recruited by the cult. It certainly makes more sense than, say, the town's having two mason groups - one completely underpowered and unable to communicate amongst themselves, and one heavily loaded one with recruiting powers.

To me, the silent speaker is the only player that I can feel

IS

100% trustworthy, for the very reason that he has not been alive for you to recruit. I DO believe that Ender's and tss' roles may have been linked. But I do not think that Ender started out evil, and I very much doubt that they had any knowledge of who the other role was.

Your theory on the town/scum balance:

6-7. So 2-3 maximum. I'm thinking two, one from a main group, and then the perisher, the SK.

So you believe that the perisher is independent - This is fair, considering they killed both EnderX and the two with the Numbers verses. But are you proposing, somehow, that the silent speaker - with his verse fully revealed - is the killer whose method also points clearly to the same section of Numbers as the two other dead baddies?

I think you are grasping at straws. I also fear that you have three recruits. Five nights, one dead EnderX, one failed VisMaior.

Note to the town: If this is the case, then the cult will win tomorrow if we do not lynch Fritzler. Please speak up!

It is clear that LoudmouthLee is one of your recruits. It has been valiant of you to try to protect the others. I must say, however, that VitaminR's trust in your "recruiting mason" is interesting, considering he was a weakened mason himself. Though he's tried to be endearingly noncommittal about it, I must say.

Fritz is a cult leader. He owns LoudmouthLee, probably VitaminR, and possibly even another. We need to stop Fritz

now

. It is vital to all non-cultists, good or scum.

[Mackay]

Triple post, sorry, change in thought.

Unvote: TSS, Vote: Mackay

Your post that I just quoted makes me think your role had additional information.. like a list of scum partners.

You scare me, Mackay, and your pressure on Fritzler only heightens it.

Ahhh, LML, you should not take everything at face value. That was, of course, following this post by you:

I'm back.

Would you be told of an alignment shift in this game anyways?

What makes you say that?

Because you aren't told anything else!

Thankyou! I did not ask that because I did not KNOW - I ask because of this quote by Fritz:

PS Mackay, you're a baller for figuring out the allegiance,

except for that whole im pro town thang

(bolding mine).

Thanks for backin' me up - although I wanted to hear HIM say that, especially given his insistence on the whole "pro-town" "thang".

The best way to get away with lying is to tell half the truth, right? I contend that if he's telling the truth about taking half the game to work out his ability, he cannot possibly have KNOWN whether he was pro-town simply due to the fact that he can recruit - and that if he is not, he's got a good reason for lying. Either way, I do not think that he can have so definitely stated that he is pro-town, given only the knowledge of a recruiting ability. Especially in a game which already has a mason-type group. Lynch all liars.

The sudden decision that I am evil is interesting, especially considering that you decided you were naive due to your making a choice from last night, based on the CERTAINTY that somebody was scum. Why not go after them, if you are sure of naivete? In any case, you've apparently been deprogrammed. I still find it hard to believe that you are naive, given the Bible verse you claimed, but... *shrug* I can handle being called suspicious, if that's what it takes to draw attention to who I think is the biggest threat to the town.

I think that your innocent results were correct. However, I'm not so sure they are

still

correct, they could easily have been recruited after you made your investigation. I can't see the reason for a naive cop in a town which apparently does not have another investigative role.

[Mackay]

But wait, there's more!

Uhm... Mackay, I don't know what you're quite saying...

FoS: Mackay

It's interesting, because I recieved a PM saying I can no longer talk to Fritz. I was able to get a result today.

Here's my idea, and feel free to shoot me down if you think I'm wrong:

#1) Fritz is a mason recruiter that, for game balance purposes, contains a maximum masonry of two.

#2) By fritz continuing to recruit and "lose" the mason, he's able to identify all the power roles that we need..

*shoots you down*

-Knowledge ascertained

Because I was able to be recruited to Fritz's Masonry, I MUST be a naive cop. Rationale: Vis was a doc and he was UNRECRUITABLE. I investigated someone whom I was sure was scum last night, and they came innocent.

Incorrect. Given Glork's verse, we are now quite sure that VisMaior was a hider and not a doctor. In which case, Fritz would merely have been unable to find him. Whether it is a cult or a *cough*... recruiting masonry, they work the same way. Power roles, upon being recruited, lose their powers. This does not judge between effectiveness of roles, otherwise this general rule's even existing is rendered worthless. What's the point of giving up your powers for recruitment, if it only allows the giving up of powers which are worthless?

I repeat: Fritz could not recruit VisMaior, because VisMaior was untargetable. NOT because he had a power role.

I am willing to have myself lynched over Fritzler if you don't believe me here. Since I'm sure I was convoluted there, and I really want to win this game as a town, please follow me.

If you're deprogrammed, I do not think your lynch is at all necessary. I am listening, I simply happen to disagree.

#1) I can no longer talk to Fritzler. (100% sure)
#2) I am a naive cop. (90% sure)
#3) Frizler is NOT a cultist (Nearly 100% sure)
#4) The new person Fritzler recruited to his Masonry (and PS: That info should NOT come to light just yet) is a pro-town player. (100%)

#1) I believe you.
#2) Your reasoning behind making this decision is just silly. Your results on mith (revealed as part of a weakened masonry) on night 1 and VisMaior (innocent) on night 2 were correct. Your result on me is correct, but I've no right to insist you agree with that one. =) I'd kinda like to hear your fourth innocent so that we can narrow it down further. (apologies if I missed it) I think your verse indicates a real ability.
#3) I don't see how you CAN be sure. Fritz, for all I know, may believe that he's pro-town and have played accordingly. Or he may have simply tried to mislead you. But if Fritz cannot be sure of his alignment, you cannot be sure of Fritz' alignment. And as I've already stated, I believe it impossible that Fritz CAN have known his alignment based SOLELY on his discovery of the ability to recruit (which is what he claims).
#4) I doubt they'll come forward anyway. And I'm sure they

were

a pro-town player.

If you want to lynch someone today, LYNCH ME. If you think I'm a member of the cult, LYNCH ME.

See, the problem with that is: a) CA says you've been deprogrammed. Would you even come up evil if this is the case?, and b) FAR more importantly: if we DO think you are a cultist, then by lynching you we give the recruiter another free pro-town player. This is a BAD idea.

When I come up good, any doctor in the house, please protect Fritzler. He's the key to winning this game. Trust me on this one.

Words fail me. If you're deprogrammed, it's entirely likely you'll come up good. Fritzler is the key to winning this game for the

cult

. The only way we could call that a victory is if our only criterion was that the mafia does not win!

Finally,

Vote: TSS

, as it's safe to proxy to a Cop, IMHO. How that was missed by you is absolutely unknown.

You have missed the point here. He is not questioning the choice of proxy. He is questioning, as I see it, Fritzler's truthfulness, and the dubious delays he has shown in actiong upon information which would have been good for the town.

[Mackay]

It would be good to hear from Ameliaslay and RoadBird.

mith, with regard to your suspicion of the silent speaker, does it really make sense? There are two lots of killers and EnderX did not appear to fit in to either one. I do agree with there being a link between the two, but I think that it is a role quirk independent of alignment. I cannot understand one of Job 14:13-14 being evil and the other not. I find it much more likely that EnderX was a cult recruit, and I do not understand your completely discounting this if you believe (as you appear to) that there is indeed a cult presence in the town.

Again, the Job verse does not gel at all with the "Numbers" theme, and Ender was killed by the "perisher". I can't imagine an independent Ender/tss evil group who have not killed/recruited anyone all game, or whose only ability is for one's death to resurrect the other. Particularly, as tss stated, when Ender's revealed alignment would render him immediately into an obvious quick-lynch.

Like I said, I am most likely to trust tss for the moment. We know that were he linked to Ender in an evil group, they were not perishers - what with Ender being killed via that method (incidentally, I'm not sure of the perisher's alignment either way - they've been pretty darn helpful), we know he is not a cultist (was dead during recruiting nights), and his verse does not fit with the two Numbers verses revealed thus far.

The only possible thing I could think of which may make him evil is if tss and EnderX "shared" a role, and thus Ender's (what I believe to be) cult recruitment was passed on to tss. And again, I don't believe this to be the case due to its being so easy for the town to make a tss quick-lynch.

[Mackay]

I would like to debate the use of the phrase "good game" here, at least as applied to the town.

You guys were lucky to escape with a tie. Lynching me without giving me a chance to say anything was one of the most incredibly stupid things you could possibly have done. Had Fritz known his role earlier, it would have ended the game right then and there, with a win for the cult.

I am still in a state of disbelief that with a potential three cult out there, ADMITTEDLY still with recruiting ability, that you rushed a lynch which could have killed the town in one swift blow. LoudmouthLee had

lied

about regaining his cop ability and given a false result. He had been proven cult, and people somehow took his word for it that he was pro-town. (I know he was telling the truth, but it was SO UNBELIEVABLE.) And lynched me without giving me a chance to argue my case.

I was fully aware that I was going to be caught, but I wanted to take out as many cultists as I could in the process. I was convinced mith was cult - sadly, I was also convinced that recruiting mith, VitaminR, and Roadbird would have been the first thing a cultist would do, and killed the ONE player of the three whose death would not have benefited me.

The play worked for you, but it was not "good".

(OK, OK. I'm bitter. Seriously bitter. Not about getting lynched, that was inevitable. But getting lynched within two hours of my going to sleep, without the chance to make an argument? With a super-scary cult looming, which nobody seemed to pay attention to? That SUCKED. So take all this with a grain of salt, I'm still not over it.)

That being said, my heartiest congratulations to

VitaminR!

You played

brilliantly!

I did not suspect you in the slightest. *like mith, also totally had ameliaslay pegged as SK*

I would also like to say that the phrase "good game" VERY much applies to Cadmium's running of the game. It was fantastic, and I can't wait for the next two.

Cad - What the heck was up with EnderX?

[Mackay]

Cad - What the heck was up with EnderX?

Exactly! And what was up with LyingBrian ?

Ahhh - see, my theory was that the mystery perisher (revealed to be VitaminR) had started out as a vig, then turned evil when LyingBrian died.

What

was

EnderX? Just some kind of evil townie?

[Mackay]

I still think I played well.

You didn't play as badly as I thought you did when I first died, that's for sure. Lynching me

was

the correct play on your and mith's part, of course - but it was not the correct play for the town.

Then again, I underestimated Fritz' honesty. =) I was sure there was a whole seething cult underworld.

[Mackay]

Wait, Lee's win condition was the town's win condition. Not the cult's. Lee won with the town.

Yes, but he had the information on the cult that the rest of the town lacked.

In my opinion, town should not have believed LML, either when he said he had turned pro-town, or that there were only two cultists remaining. Because LML knew this to be the case, lynching one of the two killers was the correct tactic.

I'm not talking about winning conditions, I'm talking about acting based upon available knowledge.

[Mackay]

I should add, CA, that you did play well - I just think the town's play on that one day was terrible.

I think that the town was

very

lucky that LML was trustworthy. Like I said, lynching me was correct - but lynching me with the information and implications we had at the time should not have been done - at least until I had some time to argue the information that was there.