Mini 280 - Game Over

[LoudmouthLee]

Vote: Fiasco

Hiya everyone.

[LoudmouthLee]

Random (among the players that already have a vote) vote: Aelyn

It's meaningless to make up an opinion about that yet Fiasco.

FOS: Fiasco

for being the first one to mention it.

Agreed, plus anyone speculating about killing groups makes me uneasy.

[LoudmouthLee]

plus anyone speculating about killing groups makes me uneasy.

Why?

Can't speak for LML, and won't say I'm of the same opinion but if people don't not consider their own role in discussions of the setup in general, those sorts of discussions can give scum info.

random vote: dragyn_mage

QFT + It also gives the scum a very nice chance to direct the town in the wrong direction (See the 5 year invitational)

[LoudmouthLee]

Ooh, my first random vote! (Assuming it was random.)

vote Aelyn

Hi all!

Well, instead of talking about killing groups, lets talk about your post here...

Why *wouldn't* this vote be random, unless you're afraid you're scum already fingered by a cop? That little aside you threw in there makes be believe that you're scum.

I cannot think of ANY reason one would decide to say as such without something to fear.

My vote stays.

[LoudmouthLee]

It's true that discussing the setup may give the scum information, but it's also true that this information may help them to kill each other, which would be good, and it's also true that it may give the town information, which would also be good. You may have a point, or you may not. I'll admit that I didn't really consider the giving information to the scum part before asking the question; I have always had the habit of bleating out everything that comes to mind, and that's worked well, but then I've never played in the beginning of a non-newbie game.

Why *wouldn't* this vote be random, unless you're afraid you're scum already fingered by a cop?

I don't know; people can vote for any number of nonrandom reasons. Maybe you thought I was more likely than the others to want to nightkill those people that have been nightkilled. Maybe you're a scum picking a relatively new player as an easy scapegoat. Maybe you like typing my username. (OK, that would probably count as random.) I just thought I'd make sure not to say something false by adding the "if".

That little aside you threw in there makes be believe that you're scum.

Because I'd be dumb enough to give myself away in the first sentence of my first post, right?

FoS LoudmouthLee

for believing me to be scum on zero evidence.

If I had a reason, trust me, I would have stated it.

Your evidence and argument doesn't do it for me. My vote stays, and trust me, I pick on scum, not newbies.

[LoudmouthLee]

So, Fiasco, he checked your profile to see when you signed up, and he didn't do the legwork to check what games you were in..

i would have made the same logical intuitive leap.

Hey

Mod

, where's Passdog and Jaguar?

[LoudmouthLee]

Well, its been my experience that discussing the set up only allows the scum to spread disinformation. However on day one, there are only so many options available to us to start discussion: bandwagoning someone to a claim, discussing the setup, and discussing a "no lynch". Usually, the second two lead to the first method.

4: Discuss the general nature of the town's options on Day 1.
5: Discuss something utterly irrelevant.
6: Argue with the first person to invoke 1-5.
7: Bandwagon whoever sticks their neck out by doing 1-6.
8: Do 1-7 for a few (RL) days, then bandwagon the lurkers.

Sticking with dragyn_mage; feel like the Fiasco bandwagon is more of a distraction than anything else, but whether LML is deliberately distracting or not could go either way.

It's D1, Nor, and I feel like we've actually "gained" info. I feel, already, this has been a productive D1, better than just bandwagon (randomly), out power role, rinse, repeat.

No one else has given me a reason to unvote, so my vote on Fiasco currently stands.

[LoudmouthLee]

Vote: Jaguar

I've seen him on since the day began and I am keen to vote the silent ones before voting on the 'bandwagon-o-the-day.'

FOS: Fiasco and LML

Fiasco is way too defensive. He is responding to every little argument. This could mean two things. One: that he is in-experienced and just over eager to play the game. Two: that he is scum and trying to point out every possible fallacy in any and all arguments.

LML, for his blantant, I'll vote for scum 'with or without a reason' to suggest why he is scum.

KingPin

IMHO (and all it is, truthfully, is my opinion), is that SCUM is more likely to try to bandwagon a lurker than a town player. I find your vote to be odd and misplaced.

[LoudmouthLee]

Now that everyone knows that I know that everyone else considers defensive posting to be a scum tell, it's no longer a scum tell, so I can post defensively to my heart's content. Right?

Aelyn's post is interesting, because he's the only one alive with whom I've been in a game before; I had vaguely expected him to defend me, because my playing style (as town) was similar there. I didn't get accused much, but when I did, I always defended myself, I think.

He's correct that I've overstated the probability that, if a pro-townie is lynched, any individual scum group will win; I said they would be "pretty close" to the win, and while that's ambiguous, it's probably less than a 1 in 2 chance in reality. (When I wrote that, I had been thinking about whether or not we might already be in lynch or lose; if we lynch a pro-townie, the mafia nightkills the SK, and the SK nightkills a townie, we're very close to a loss but not quite there yet. This may explain some of the confusion in my mind. I've always considered a mafia + SK the main possibility and agree that my arguments are worse than they would be given four unified scum.)

I do still think that if we lynch wrong, the town is in very bad shape. In the other mini I've been in, the town lynched right the first three times but still lost. I also still think the three votes aren't without risk. One confused townie, one SK and one self-sacrificing mafia member would do the trick.

Aelyn seems to be saying the following is an argument independent of his other ones:

which, incidentally, is invalid since the town's in exactly the same boat regarding everyone else

but I don't understand what he means here.

One last point. Whether you think posting a lot is good or bad, it would be irrational to data-mine the most scummy tell out of all posts. Instead, you should look more at the scum tell rate. Someone with two tells in four posts is scummier than someone with three tells in ten posts, assuming equally contentful/risky posts.

FoS Aelyn

: 4th votes based on little are scummy. Instead of attacking me for addressing the arguments, you should be attacking people like LmL for not addressing the arguments, as would happen in any normal situation.

FoS Passdog

: lurking.

(This will be my last post for the near future; in a day or two I'll probably write something about the main arguments against me, as well as about which of you I think are the scum. I have seven people against me now and it looks reasonably likely that I'll be lynched. We need to get as much information out of this as we can.)

I have heard over and over again... 4 unified scum.

Where did you get this? Where is this coming from?

I believe you have too much info, sir.

[LoudmouthLee]

Maybe I misread... re-reading.

[LoudmouthLee]

I rub everyone the wrong way. I'm aggressive. Sorry. I still find that scum are more likely to target lurkers than townies, so I'll levy a

FoS: Kingpin

You can view it as OMGUS, I view it as a hunch... as a repeated lurker hunt, when, in turn, you only have two posts of merit.

[LoudmouthLee]

I did quickly retract and apologize. I got confused in my notes.

(RE: unified group)

[LoudmouthLee]

I find the following to be very interesting:

Fiasco's wagon has stalled. That means either the scum don't want to be on the wagon, or that the scum is already on the wagon.

No FoSes to throw around, but recently, Fiasco has eased some of my suspicions. I may consider an unvote if a better target rolls along (Which could be D_M or Norniel)

Norn's posts have gotten me rather uneasy lately. I will quote a little bit later.

[LoudmouthLee]

An interesting case. He gets points for being an active and aggressive player, which is risky for scum.

Some of the best scum i have ever seen is active and aggressive. IMHO, an active scum who is strongest is who who doesn't start bandwagons, but is normally the 2nd vote or 3rd. Scum don't normally hammer unless they have nothing to fear.

On the other hand, since he's supposed to be a Mafia God, I hold him to high standards.

That was proclaimed by Pie is Good, and I'm honored that you hold me to that. I'll make sure to try to live up to my expectations.

He mostly hasn't lived up to them in this game. He instigated the bandwagon because of the "assuming" thing that he didn't really defend later.

Disagreement: My vote on you has not changed. My record for finding scum in the first few posts is outstanding. Please ask Vaughn about that one. You say that "scum wouldn't be that careless" and "yes, I would out myself on my first post" still seems like scum caught in headlights. I'm not moving my vote as of now.

Later he accused me of having info about a four-scum group, which is very improbable.

My notes in my games got crossed, and I did post a correction mere hours later.

He also argued against lurker hunts.

And I will until the day I die.

Lurker hunts, IMHO, are simply ways for the scum to throw undue suspicion on townies. I will point to a game in which I was scum and managed to lynch *3* lurkers. (Jeepfest Mafia), just because they were lurkers.

They are generally EASY targets by the scum to point to, and even moreso, easy townies for the town to lynch based on their inactivity.

Lurkers are not people who don't post, they are people who "just post enough to skate by". Passdog shouldn't have ANY votes yet, and I find the people who have voted them suspicious.

My vote stands.

[LoudmouthLee]

I really don't think Aelyn is the correct lynch for today. He's very low on my scumminess meter right now.

Welcome, Passdog, glad you can join us.

Another thing that has annoyed me is that by basically stating that the next person to vote on him is scum, Fiasco has cleverly stalled the game. As he himself has stated there are six to lynch - in my mind that would make four the critical number not three.

Can you quote this for me? I have gone through my notebook and failed to record that.

[LoudmouthLee]

The transition from humility to but-I-will-call-in-this-awesome-reputation disturbs me. Particularly because half the reason LML was going after Fiasco in the first few posts was the misinterpretation of the whole "(Assuming it was random)" thing.

More like, Norn, Occam's razor. Choose the simplest response. In mafia, there really isnt ever a "throwaway" comment. That comment was typed for a reason. I believe it wasn't intentional, and it's worth exploring.

And I'm good at finding these early, but I'm much worse as the game goes on. Ask Mathcam.

[LoudmouthLee]

As per my statement, we are now at 4 votes.

unvote fiasco

This has nothing to do with my thinking on fiasco, and everything to do with making sure we avoid a premature lynch. Is it likely to happen with only 2 more votes necessary? Probably not, but I want to avoid that possibility.

Premature lynch? The votes on Fiasco have gone very slowly! This seems to be a "protect my scum partner" tactic. I'm willing to believe that Fiasco and Viking are possibly scum together.

FoS: Viking

That post makes me feel very uneasy. I'm happy with either a Fiasco or a Viking lynch ATM

[LoudmouthLee]

My vote, as of right now, will only go to Viking or Fiasco. I feel very strongly about either of those two bandwagons.

MOD NOTE

Aelyn

has been prodded.

[LoudmouthLee]

I feel no need to justify my vote (more than I've had) at this time.

FWIW, I'm leaning torwards (as I've said before) Fiasco, Norniel and Kingpin as scum. Mark it down.

[LoudmouthLee]

Just a linkup issue, Aelyn, nothing more.

I couldn't link up the three I thought it was (PS: When I said Norniel, I really meant Vikingfan. Maybe that was a freudian slip of sorts, I don't know)

Regardless, I believe I'm the one everyone's looking at, mainly, because I'm POSTING. I'm beginning to get worried that Fiasco's the same way, and beginning to question my vote.

Regardless, I'm gonna sit back for now and see how this unfolds. It seems my aggressiveness has only backfired on me.

[LoudmouthLee]

Please forgive my eyes. They go with age, Norinel.

[LoudmouthLee]

Hrm...

Now, we have a VERY INTERESTING issue.

I'm a cop. I TOO investigated Aelyn. I recieved an INNOCENT result.

How many times did I say Aelyn was NOT the lynch today?

[LoudmouthLee]

Yikes. Two cops apparently investigating me night 1? Two different results, no less...

Firstly, LML, DG: Are you both standard Cops? Is there anything that might suggest inaccuracies?

Secondly, I should point out that I kinda agree with VikingFan that LML sticking his neck out is probably a bad idea if he was scum, and so I'm more inclined to believe him. Of course I am biased somewhat by LML getting the correct result on me

Thirdly, Don Gaetano's posting has been what you'd expect for someone with a Guilty result on me, but that said it's not hard for scum to fake and there's still a very real possibility that he's simply somehow insane.

Fourthly, and finally, my role. I am immune to nightkills, and I'm happy to be tested if you want.

Note: Going to say this as "nicely" as possible.

Aelyn was my target because he's a little above the middle of the pack in players in this game.

I find, when I'm the cop, I take the players and rank them based on my knowledge of them. I never investigate #1 and #2, knowing that the odds are that they are not scum together, and I'll let their less experienced scum partners rat them out,

I picked Aelyn because, quite frankly, I had him as #3,

PS: Standard scum thing to do - just hop on the bandwagon when a guilty verdict on a scumbuddy is found so NO NEW CONVERSATION happens.

Now, for the real reason I'm posting now.

IMMUNE TO NIGHTKILLS?

With that claim, I'm... almost willing to test if I'm insane. and I know how to do it, too.

[LoudmouthLee]

(sorry for double-posting AGAIN...)

LML, DG, why did you choose Aelyn to investigate?

LML, what's your opinion on your sanity? What's your opinion on DG's sanity and alignment?

My opinion on my sanity? Not Paranoid.
My opinion on DG's Alignment? In my notes, currently, 90% pro-town. His sanity? Not Naive.

We have a problem, though...

THE SCUM ALREADY KNOWS WHO IS SANE!

And, that's bad news for us. So, here's the (gulp) play... and it's a new one on me.

I'm going to

Unvote: Fiasco

and

Vote: Aelyn

so the town has the same info as the scum. We go from there.

As of right now, dollars to donuts, DG's sane, I'm not. But, We'll see when we get that info.

[LoudmouthLee]

So do you have a reason other than "there isn't really any better home for my vote" to keep it on Aelyn? That's really not a good reason. Do you find Aelyn scummy? And what are your thoughts on the Fiasco wagon? Do you support it, not support it? What?

I have no reason to move my vote, it doesn't have anything to do with Aelyn. I've already said what I think about the Fiasco wagon.

Uh... WHAT?

[LoudmouthLee]

Do you all have counting problems?

DG confirmed vote. He's now at 3. (sigh) READ PEOPLE!

[LoudmouthLee]

EDIT: Vikingfan. Missed. Sorry

[LoudmouthLee]

Hm, you're saying it's a miscount? That was really careless.

And I STILL think you're scum, so why mince words?

You're right. i shouldn't have moved my vote. You make things so clear for me, Fiasco.

Unvote: Aelyn, Vote: Fiasco

[LoudmouthLee]

LML just inexplicably jumped back onto my bandwagon, so maybe he's hoping two other scum will jump in to speedlynch me, unlikely though that seems. In view of this, Aelyn, would you mind putting your unvote where your mouth is?

Or maybe I'm just annoyed because I made a mistake, posted it (before mention was made) and then see you throw suspicion around?

You're obviously not thinking, Fiasco, The other two scum to speedlynch you? Wouldn't that be obvious?

For someone who's normally logical and intelligent, you're sure posting like a donkey. Hence, my suspicions have not been allayed, and hence, my vote stays.

In other words, you annoy me.

[LoudmouthLee]

Current favorite theory: Aelyn is the SK, LML is a mafia, DG is a sane cop. LML, knowing that Aelyn was not in the mafia, thought DG could be insane, and thought it was worth the risk to claim an innocent result; if Aelyn turned out to be the SK, LML could always claim to be insane himself.

Current favorite theory. Fiasco's mafia.

[LoudmouthLee]

* Aelyn already asked this one, but you didn't answer: is there anything in your role to suggest inaccuracies?
* Can you self-investigate?
* If you think I'm mafia, what do you think Aelyn's alignment is? Do you seriously think I'm the best lynch at this point?

-No (the phrase sanity unknown is absent)
-Don't know, but I couldn't see why not.
-I don't know if you're mafia, but you seem very anti-town. Your first post actually suggests SK (the more I think of it.). I still think Aelyn is innocent.

[LoudmouthLee]

After re-reading my PM, I have to believe I'm sane. It's called.. a change of mind.

[LoudmouthLee]

Lynch a cop?

He's advocating lynching a cop.

Jeez people. Wake up and bandwagon him.

[LoudmouthLee]

This is interesting, because if you're sane, then Aelyn is unnightkillable. I'm not sure what that does for our chances of victory, but it has to be good. And I can see only one way to find out whether you're right while keeping Aelyn alive.

I say we take off and lynch LML from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

(Actually, no... having an unnightkillable townie wouldn't guarantee us a draw, and the whole story just isn't believable enough. But it's another option to think about.)

Why me and not DG, eh?

[LoudmouthLee]

He hasn't yet said whether his role PM suggests sanity, so if we found him innocent, that wouldn't necessarily prove Aelyn guilty. (Don Gaetano, same questions for you as for LML, obviously: does your role PM suggest sanity? can you self-investigate?)

Also, I think his claim is much more believable.

Really? because I counterclaimed within the hour?

[LoudmouthLee]

logically, Aelyn is the best lynch today. It will at least give our doc a good target to protect and force the scum and SK to hit one person and not two.

That makes no sense whatsoever. If we lynch Aelyn, there will be two obvious nightkill targets: LML and DG. This will lead to either one or two dead claimed cops; if there's a doctor, one or zero. On the other hand, if we lynch LML, there will be one obvious nightkill target: DG. This will lead to one dead claimed cop; if there's a doctor, zero. (I'm assuming the mafia and SK don't mutually coordinate their kills; be on the lookout for anyone trying to do so.) We'll also have lynched the other claimed cop, but as a compensation, if LML is innocent, we'll have a confirmed unnightkillable townie.

If you want to kill off ALL power roles, lynching Aelyn is your best bet. I've come to the conclusion that Aelyn is probably a bad lynch at this point. Lynching LML doesn't seem to be politically feasible and might be a bad idea based on his cop claim, so maybe the best feasible lynch is a scummy looking player who has not claimed a power role; say, Mage or Dog. If no other players are scummy enough, maybe even a no-lynch. (I can say that, since I'm already at the lowest possible level of popularity anyway.) I'll need to think about whether I myself might a better lynch than Aelyn.

If we have two cops, one is going to be nightkilled soon, anyway; if we have no doctor, two. A bulletproof townie, on the other hand, lasts until lynched. And the inevitable cop nightkills will either clear him, or prove him scum, in which case we can go ahead and lynch him the next day.

A lot of this depends on how sure LML is, based on his PM, that he's sane. LML, please post.

Nothing in my PM makes me think I'm insane

[LoudmouthLee]

Fiasco. I'll be honest. When I first read my pm, I didn't read the "fine print" so well. When I re-read at the time of your quoted post, I didn't see anything that could be figured that way.

Fiasco, you're the scummiest player, as you STILL SEEM TO BE PUSHING FOR THE LYNCH OF THE COP.

Here's the story: Fiasco is MAFIA, he knows the Aelyn is INNOCENT, so he's still continuing to put the doubt of me into EVERYONE'S head!

[LoudmouthLee]

WIFOM, same thing you told me. You see, Fiasco, this whole town should have lynched you well before any of this happened. You think, for a moment, I wanted to come out with the damn doctor dead? And you're still pushing for my lynch? I needed to stop a lynch that, in my mind, would have HURT the town instead of help it. Instead, I continually have to listen to your worthless drivel about lynching a CLAIMED COP.

[LoudmouthLee]

WIFOM, same thing you told me.

You responded WIFOM when I said why would I come out at that exact point in time if I were scum, and you called it a Wine in front of me argument. Yours is moreso.

You see, Fiasco, this whole town should have lynched you well before any of this happened.

When you slipped at the very beginning.

You think, for a moment, I wanted to come out with the damn doctor dead? And you're still pushing for my lynch?

I think you understand this.

I needed to stop a lynch that, in my mind, would have HURT the town instead of help it.

I found Aelyn INNOCENT. I felt a need to stop that lynch. I made a decision (to vote for Aelyn), reread your posts, made a counting mistake (acknowledged), and changed my vote back to you, because you deserved it.

Instead, I continually have to listen to your worthless drivel about lynching a CLAIMED COP.

And that's evidenced by your vote for me.

Confirm Vote: Fiasco

He's truly a fiasco.

[LoudmouthLee]

1. LML and DG are both telling the truth. Aelyn is Town. therefore LML is a cop and DG is insane.

Possible/Likely

2. LML and DG are both telling the truth. Aelyn is scum. LML is insane and DG a cop.

Possible/Somewhat likely

3. DG tells the truth, LML lies, Aelyn is scum.

Impossible, but even if you aren't me and don't know my role, what happens when one of us die? The other is sure to follow suit.. poor scum play, if it were scum play..

4. LML truth, DG lies, Aelyn is town.

I still think DG's a cop. It's very odd, but the way he came out.. just seemed coppish (a bit on the quick draw if you ask me, but still, not scummy.) However, this is possible from my standpoint, because I know my role/result, but I still don't think DG's scum. Very Unlikely.

I missed this post for some reason. In bold, in the quoted area, is my response.

And, you could entertain the point that we're both scum (as Fiasco has done...) and come to realize that two scum, on day one? Brazen and Ill-thought out. I also know my role.. I'm a cop.

[LoudmouthLee]

Revisit the problem is/when either me or DG is dead? Honestly... Here's why I feel we're getting a better lynch today with Fiasco:

Known quantity: When I come up dead, you knew my results. You can go with it from there. You also know DG's results, and if/when he turns up dead, you have knowledge there...

The only person there who want's to kill a KNOWN cop is Fiasco. That, coupled with the fact that with a/the doctor dead... it's a possibility that DG WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER INVESTIGATION TO MAKE!

Again. The SCUM ALREADY KNOWS WHO IS SANE, as log as DG and I somehow coordinate who we're investigating (maybe the same person again?), we can make this work.

I will reiterate here...

Fiasco wants to lynch a cop. He wants to lynch, and then, with a nightkill, the scum have no cops to worry about. Don't be foolish town. Two cops have been outted and an UnNKable. I say we lynch Fiasco. If I and DG turn up pro-town, it may be a good idea to THEN lynch Aelyn.

If Aelyn's scum, witch he might be... We just watch him and watch his voting patterns. We, as the town, have the power here. There will be no relinquishing of it.

LYNCH FIASCO.

[LoudmouthLee]

Ass! U! Mptions!

A further reread of what I said would lead us to...

The only person there who want's to kill a KNOWN cop is Fiasco. That, coupled with the fact that with

a/the doctor dead... it's a possibility that DG WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER INVESTIGATION TO MAKE!

The assumption was prefaced.

Thanks.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bah: Edit... Norinel.

[LoudmouthLee]

First off, all my previous post number references should be decreased by 1 due to the deletion of Speedy's post.

Second, no one has commented on a probable Lee lie:

You think, for a moment, I wanted to come out with the damn doctor dead? And you're still pushing for my lynch? I needed to stop a lynch that, in my mind, would have HURT the town instead of help it.

later explaining:

I found Aelyn INNOCENT. I felt a need to stop that lynch. I made a decision (to vote for Aelyn)

He claims he felt a need to stop Aelyn's lynch that was so strong that it made him come out, even though he

really

didn't want to come out. And yet a few hours later, when Aelyn had accumulated some more votes, he was wholeheartedly pushing that same bandwagon! That his vote was a fifth vote may or may not have been due to a genuine miscount, but in any case he didn't seem interested in thinking things over before lynching Aelyn. This, and the fact that there is nothing he said between the cop claims and his Aelyn vote about not wanting Aelyn to be lynched, suggests to me he is simply a scum who (in the heat of an argument with me) misremembered his story behind his cop claim.

I may or may not have time to post more in a moment. If so that may mean a double post. Apologies in advance.

I didn't want to come out. Why would a cop want to come out? Yes, I initally wanted to lynch Aelyn. I admitted to a miscount of votes and, for that matter,

still think the Aelyn lynch isn't a misuguded lynch

, but it's simply not a good lynch, such as yourself.

You're manufacturing things, and quite frankly, if you notice, no one is even close to going with you here. That's because the rest of the town sees through your bullpoop.

The truth of the matter is still, a lynch of Aelyn would give the town information.

I'm still curious, because, humbly speaking, you have done a VERY POOR job of explaining why you rather a lynch of me over DG. Especially after DG says the following:

For god's sake people.

Read "Mini 255 - Raj’s Freaktown I"

Aelyn is IMHO obviously innocent. I know it's dangerous trying to outguess the mod but I still think there's no way LyingBrian wouldn't put an un-nightkillable role in his game.

Even if you don't agree with that statement. Think about this:

Most likely Aelyn did not read Mini 255. If that assumption is correct, Aelyn has to be innocent because the chances of him claiming that precise role, without knowing about that game are even much smaller than me and LML investigating the same person.

If Aelyn did read Mini 255. The logical assumption would be that LB had already put a role like that in the game, so it would be a stupid risk to take, for a claim that's hard to believe in the first place. He had no way of knowing that I would remember that game either.

That means that I'm paranoid or insane, and that LML is sane or naive (most likely sane)

-----

From now on I will consider both Aelyn and LML to be confirmed townies. Our lynch should be one of the 7 that haven't claimed.

So, you're basically saying that I'm a damn fool, and so is Kingpin, DG, Passdog, and any other person that's incredibly suspicious of you.

If you're pro-town, you've played this game like a damned fool, pushing for the lynch of a cop. If you're scum, I applaud your mettle, but the truth be told, I promise you, you'll be lynched unless either myself or DG clears you.

PS: Let it be known, is it wasn't painfully obvious already: If I'm still alive and Fiasco makes it through D1, He will be my N2 investigation target.

Granting your point, though, it still seems to me lynching LML is better.

More Claimed Cop lynching BS.

Let's say we have no doctor, or a doctor that can protect against only one attack (which seems like the standard case, especially for backups). Then if we lynch Aelyn, we lose a claimed coward, and we lose the sane cop that night. We're left with a non-sane claimed cop. On the other hand, if we lynch LML, we lose both claimed cops, and we're left with a claimed coward, whose alignment we will have a good idea about now that we know the cop alignments.

How would you have any clue about Aelyn's allignment if you lose both claimed cops (I'm a cop. DG is my question mark.) In this case, you'll have lost both cops (again, assumption: DG is a cop), and NO COP HAS A SECOND RESULT!

I'm a bit wary, however, of DG, honestly... If he has the SAME PM as me (as he has referenced to), how can he be "sure" that he's not sane. He's metagaming bigtime here... I'm not planning on voting for a claimed cop any time soon... however, the moral of this longwinded post is:

Confirm Vote: Fiasco

FoS: Don Gaetano

I'll be willing to lynch, if it's a town concensus: Aelyn

[LoudmouthLee]

Don't get mad at me for the multi-post; it turns out there are some more things to mention.

Here's an interesting recent LML statement from a thread in Mafia Discussion:

I perfer to NOT random vote ever.

And yet he thinks I should have been lynched for saying "(Assuming it was random)"?

Don Gaetano, I do think that's a useful piece of evidence, but I think if you consider both Aelyn and LML confirmed innocents, you're reading too much into it. There's no reason to think Aelyn didn't see the game; there's no reason to think Aelyn couldn't have looked into LB's history when thinking of a claim; there's no reason to think LB wouldn't intentionally (not) put things into the game to prevent us from outguessing him; it's even possible Aelyn got the "coward" thing as a safe claim. And even if Aelyn is confirmed innocent, that doesn't quite confirm LML, as it's possible we have just an insane cop.

Norinel, I think given the current climate it's almost certain I'll be lyched if Aelyn turns up innocent; and in that case we'll lose two pro-townies due to lynches (leaving four),

plus

two nights of nightkills (leaving between zero and four). Crossfire or not, I think our situation is extremely bad then.

Prefer. Look it up.

[LoudmouthLee]

Look. You're doing it AGAIN.

I voted Aelyn because even though I don't AGREE with the lynch, I though it was the RIGHT lynch.

I feel like a broken record.

[LoudmouthLee]

BTW, we would, of course, not actually RECOMMEND the plan unless Fiasco claims, just in case he's a doc or something.

I would recommend a fiasco claim before we go to night anyway.

[LoudmouthLee]

You're lucky I found that funny

[LoudmouthLee]

I still think Aelyn is the best play for today. Simply to help the town.

I do not think this town gets anywhere by lynching a claimed cop on day 1. And as of now, I cannot fault anyone for wanting to lynch someone that is advocating that! In my opinion, Fiasco is the most scummy from D1 activities and discussions. But his scumminess can be evaluated tonight by a cop, which LML has already said he would do.

Agreed.

Unvote: Fiasco
Vote: Aelyn

[LoudmouthLee]

(Sorry for double-posting; with the day possibly ending any moment, there's no way I'm going to save comments for tomorrow.)

Passdog, what you call "insane" is usually called "random", what you call "reversed" is usually called "insane", and what you call "gullible" is usually called "naive". This may clear up some confusion about earlier posts.

I'm pretty sure the SK is one among KingPin, vikingfan, Jaguar, Norinel and draygn_mage (mafia, take note). Aelyn doesn't seem very interested in not dying (

FoS Aelyn

for that). LML and DG's cop claims make no sense for an SK. Passdog, DG and I have all had the opportunity to lynch Aelyn, but argued against it. It seems extremely hard for an SK to win with a coward in the game.

Giving the Mafia kill instructions, eh? I'm banking on Fiasco being the SK.

[LoudmouthLee]

I notice you're not unvoting. Why not? Don't you think we're still having productive discussion? I've heard that long days are good for the town.

Once again, it seems extremely hard for an SK to win with a coward in the game. It'd have to be a mafia-coward-SK endgame, and the mafia would have to vote for the coward (why?), and the SK would have to win by default when everyone's dead. Either that, or some foolish townie would have to vote for the coward.

I could have been on the Aelyn bandwagon long ago without looking suspicious. He'd probably be dead by now. I just don't think he's the right lynch.

Unvote

He's not the right lynch? You're confusing me...

I told you, I recieved an innocent investigation of him. So, you believe he's innocent now. I'm.. lost.

At this point in time, I'd be willing to vote Fiasco or Dragyn_Mage based on his heads or tails game.

[LoudmouthLee]

I notice you're not unvoting. Why not? Don't you think we're still having productive discussion? I've heard that long days are good for the town.

Once again, it seems extremely hard for an SK to win with a coward in the game. It'd have to be a mafia-coward-SK endgame, and the mafia would have to vote for the coward (why?), and the SK would have to win by default when everyone's dead. Either that, or some foolish townie would have to vote for the coward.

I could have been on the Aelyn bandwagon long ago without looking suspicious. He'd probably be dead by now. I just don't think he's the right lynch.

Unvote

He's not the right lynch? You're confusing me...

I told you, I recieved an innocent investigation of him. So, you believe he's innocent now. I'm.. lost.

At this point in time, I'd be willing to vote Fiasco or Dragyn_Mage based on his heads or tails game.

Edit after initital send (I don't know if this is going to double post.. I hit stop)

Here's a thought... DG = scum, got caught in a gambit of Aelyn (I, being the cop that actually investigated him). Fiasco seems to be protecting DG (note the distancing going on)

Just some more to chew on. I'm more comfortable with a Fiasco lynch.

[LoudmouthLee]

Actually, I'd agree to an Aelyn lynch if, in case he turns up guilty, we're lynching LML the next day. But if we're going to lynch me in any case, there's no harm in doing it now so we'll have more info for the next lynch.

You are the scummiest person I've ever seen.

I gave you my result. It makes NO sense for me to "allow the town" to get two scum.

I, sincerely, think you're really either cornered scum or the most misguided townie ever.

I would be VERY happy lynching Fiasco.

[LoudmouthLee]

I was voting him (Fiasco) the entire day..

I thought (and maybe I'm wrong) the town concensus was to lynch Aelyn to gain info.

I'd be happy to return my Fiasco vote... I think the day, though, does need to end. I don't feel like forcing any more claims.

[LoudmouthLee]

Fiasco claimed Vanilla?



I think it's best for us to lynch Fiasco, not kill a power role, and I'll investigate Don Gaetano.

[LoudmouthLee]

Fiasco. I believe you deserve it.

Vote: Fiasco

Night please.

HAMMER.

[LoudmouthLee]

Bah. DG was innocent, and my investigation...

And Now, I'm sure I look scummy. I'm really, really not.

I believe I'm naive. Otherwise, the scum would have killed me instead of DG.

The correct play today is Aelyn.

Vote: Aelyn

[LoudmouthLee]

Because, I recieved an innocent result. DG recieved a guilty result. The scum chose to kill him, not me, making me much less of a threat.

I realize that I'm NOT INSANE, because DG is cleared in death. I recieved an innocent on him (and he was the best check, in my eyes), and yes, WIFOM galore, but I don't think the scum would kill DG over me whilst I was the sane cop.

This seems rather cut and dry. If you want to lynch me, lynch me tomorrow. It would be AWFUL if DG was paranoid, and I am Naive. Then, the mod really messed with this town nicely.

I hope this answers your question as sussinctly as possible. I still believe Aelyn is the correct lynch, followed by Draygn. How could I NOT be town? I would like to know where you're going with this. Explain. With reasons. Not with you're patented "because I say so".

FoS: Draygn

[LoudmouthLee]

Oh don't get me wrong, Aelyn should definitely be the lynch for today, but I believe you should be following. After re-reading your arguments from yesterday, I can see they made no sense. You came out voting for Aelyn yesterday, but once DG came forward as a cop you unvoted and began defending with the claim that you too were a cop. As a scum this is a brilliant move as it gives you a claim that is unverifiable (naive cop) which could be nothing but a townie role. Just too much coincidence and too much convenience in your claim.

The rest of the town can lynch Aelyn, I'm leaving my vote on you all day and if I'm still alive tomorrow it will stay there again till the rest of the town realizes the same as me.

*shrug* or they can lynch me and I get to add to my sig when they finally lynch you.

Or, you can get your story straight.

My initial vote, dear sirrah, was on Fiasco.

I implore everyone involved in this game to easily check "all posts by user" and click on "LoudmouthLee". Are you for real?

Your entire point is gone. Try again.

And PS: I thought I answered Kingpin's question well.

[LoudmouthLee]

You said I voted for Aelyn out of the gate, and I didn't.

You're trying to mislead the town. I dislike it.

[LoudmouthLee]

After much discussion... after both claims.

[LoudmouthLee]

It's awful. This is an awful situation. I'm really worried that if we mislynch today, the town will be losing the enxt day with a mislynch of me.

This is gonna get ugly quickly.

[LoudmouthLee]

So.. Aelyn's the SK. Which means.. I may be sane. (eyebrows raised).

I still say to lynch him to clear me. Thanks.

[LoudmouthLee]

Uhm, I have modded and played in games where a cop finds the SK innocent.

Anyway, I would recommend, if anything, having me killed overnight. Don't waste a lynch here. I truly am a cop. This game will be a very interesting study after everything is said and done.

Unfortunately, I've resigned myself to being killed. It's a pity to have the town lose for it.

[LoudmouthLee]

You are confirm voting a cop. You're going to look mighty stupid in my death, mighty scummy as well.

Damn. Two cops checking the same guy night one and it's going to spell doom for the town. Couple that with Fiasco's scumminess day one.. the mafia had it pretty easy this game.

LmL=Frustrated

[LoudmouthLee]

My personal vote is for Norinel, if the SK's going to kill me tonight.

I believe that will be the best for the towwn.

[LoudmouthLee]

I know know I'm naive.

I investigated Kingpin to check sanity. Sure enough, it was an innocent.

Excellent. I'm useless.

PS:

You heard it here... Kingpin, D_M and Viking (although it could be Norinel)

Here's why.

It was Jag's idea to lynch Kingpin and/or D-M to get info. Soon afterwards, Kingpin counterclaims SK. Instant death, but doesn't allow us to catch two scum (one by lynch, the other by SK kill.) Now it'll take us two days to catch scum instead of one.

I'm making an assumption here, of course, that we're in lynch and lose. Kingpin, by giving himself up, put his faction in great position.

Ultimately, I believe we should Kingpin then d_m. I'm all for a mass claim now, too.

Please, do not lynch Kingpin until we have a chance for everyone to chime in. He's KNOWN scum, so we shouldn't rush to kill him.

[LoudmouthLee]

[LoudmouthLee]

Okay.. this is being bumped. I know Nori's away, but still, we need discussion.

d_m? Passdog?

[LoudmouthLee]

Have you even read? Wow. D-M is absolutely scum.

If no one disagrees with me...

Vote: Kingpin

and i'll

FoS: D-M, for a vote tomorrow.

[LoudmouthLee]

We must lynch

Aelyn

!

as they make their way to the gallows. As Aelyn struggles for breath, he manages to say his final words,

I AM the Serial Killer!

The town has managed to find and lynch 1 opposing role, but how many are left?

Aelyn - Serial Killer - Lynched D2

THE SK, not A SK.

Vote stands.

[LoudmouthLee]

1. Why would Kingpin (if mafia) claim SK? I can't imagine him making such a stupid claim unless it were true. How on earth would it advantage the mafia?

Of course not... because he assumed the game was over!

Passdog, if you were in a mafia of 3 and then lynched the SK (thinking that your nightkill MUST go through), wouldn't you have assumed the game was over?

I believe that all pro-town players should and must lynch Kingpin now.

He got caught in a gambit that may ultimately help the town win.

Confirm Vote: Kingpin

[LoudmouthLee]

A) If you're the SK (which you aren't) and you kill me (which the mafia may...) you'll see that I'm a cop.

I'm in "Salvage this game for the town" mode.

[LoudmouthLee]

Go and vote, Viking.

[LoudmouthLee]

What's your reason for not voting?

Mod? WTF is going on here? No one is posting, the mafia thinks they have a majority (a la why kingpin claimed SK), and they have half of it if there's 3 mafia. No one's posting, and I'm VERY confused. can you prod or SOMETHING?