Mafia Invictus ~ Game Over!

[Duplicity]

Hey everyone. I didn't realize the severity of the timezone difference until this game. I fear the short deadlines are going to be extremely hurtful and means we should attempt to move out of the RVS period as soon as possible. I've had a discussion with Shift and we both share town-reads on DGB, Tarhalindur and Quilford although our town-read on Quilford is remarkably weaker than the other two.

Neither of us are exactly sure what to make of SpyreX's lack of reaction to the votes placed upon him however the speed of the wagon and the lack of reasoning behind the votes on it make us uncomfortable joining it. Disliking Guts voting, it screams as oppportunistic bandwagoning with no attempt to look or comment elsewhere.

Vote: Gut

[Duplicity]

WHY ARE YOU SCUM

Gonna go ahead and Invictus you now. KTHKBYE

I haven't had a chance to have a discussion with Shift since day has started however the above quote essentially confirms Quilford as town. There's no scum motivation to aim at someone who has openely claimed to have invictus'ed you at all. Reading fates recent posts as town-tells and my Tarh town-read has decreased however still remains. Silavours blitz hammer and reaction today screams scum and reads as a polar difference to his actions in a previous game I played with him in which he was town.

Vote: Silavour
Invictious Vote: Gut

[Duplicity]

The only potential downside to the invictus voting plan involves mafia having the possiblity and opportunity to manipulate the votes during the day phase to prevent themselves from being incivitused however the votes will provide massive amounts of content and interactions to read back for later in the game.

Not understanding the BabySpice votes, sure she's a weaker player however she'll be relatively easy to read correctly later in the game removing any potential gain from invictusing her early, furthermore the placement and timing of her Tarh vote and avoidance of the Spyrex wagon reads as slightly town.

[Duplicity]

I strongly dislike the concept of policy lynching, I believe I even created a thread elaborting on how it destroys and harms the game. Policy lynching means you're openely claiming that you believe randomly lynching is just as likely to hit scum as actually scumhunting. VI's aren't impossible to read at all, they're actually relatively easy. You only need to read into the motivations behind their posts and what you believe they're aiming to achieve rather than what they've actually achieved.

[Duplicity]

Zach, I wouldn't disagree that her activity is exceedingly low but considering it's only been a few hours since day two has begin and knowing that day one lasted less than a day I fail to see how you can attempt to rectify her death based on low post count.

Shift needs to come online before I head to bed, there's a few things I want to discuss with him before I forget them.

PEdit: My stance and conclusion should be incredibly obvious via the fact that I invictused voted myself.

[Duplicity]

Dance, I made it abundantly obvious that I believe the perks greatly outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside. DGB, if you state you now understand the advantages of the voting system can you explain your refrainment from actually taking part in it?

I tend to agree with Fate, I don't believe Zach and Gut are scum together and between them I'm leaning heavily towards Gut being scum. Anyway, I give up attempting to wait online for Shift, 4am is way past my limit. I'll create a QT and pop my thoughts there and our discussion will have to wait until sunday afternoon.

[Duplicity]

Shift here, lol @Regfan waiting 2 hours for me and I only wake up 4 hours later. Will try to sign my posts but if I forget then just look at the quality, if it's good chances are it's Regfan if it's bad it's just me being stupid.

Anyway, he left me his reads and if there's enough interest I'll post them, for now I'll just post mine until I can speak with him. We agree on most ends anyway.

Tar's latest posts read as town to me, bad vote/Invictus today.

Fate's invictus plan is great, wholeheartedly agree. He gets a townie brownie. Double lynches are very helpful. I thought it was obvious what Reg's opinion was but I guess not, he explained this though I believe.

DGB was a town read D1, but her posts recently have been bad and mostly dismissive of us. Have one main thing to say, and it's this:

...outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside. DGB, if you state you now understand the advantages of the voting system can you explain your refrainment from actually taking part in it?

Hello Mr Snob,

Can you speak so that the rest of us understand you? Also, it's outweighed, not outwayed. But you probably knew that.

Yours affectionately,

DGB

Why have you avoided the question we asked? Even though I don't think his sentences were that complicated, I can understand difficulties with the first one. But the second is quite clear:

DGB, if you state you now understand the advantages of the voting system can you explain your refrainment from actually taking part in it?

In the unlikely case that you can't understand it, I'll repeat it: Why have you agreed the Invictus voting is good but haven't made one yet?

I have to admit I laughed at "outwayed", will be sure to laugh at him later. But ignoring a valid question because of a misspelling is obviously evading it.

Vitamin passes off as null leaning town for #242.

Quil is probably town based off KK's post that he was invictusing Quil. I highly doubt mafia would kill someone with such a risk of a mafia getting killed.

Baby, Nautilus, and Illuminati/DH desperately need to post.

Ben I'm leaning town on, don't like the policy lynch on Baby though I understand the reasoning. I don't agree with it though.

Zach is null leaning scum, mostly just the feel of the posts that feel off, not so much anything obviously scummy.

Dance I have no read on, a good place to start on letting me read you would be not being an idiot. "I invictused voted myself." does not mean "I invictused myself". It means we voted for an invictus. If you had actually been paying attention you'd see that. The fact that you push on things that are either inaccurate or inconsequential makes it very difficult to read you. Surely scum would do a better job than that on pushing a wagon, but surely town would be paying more attention before drawing it to an incorrect conclusion. Regfan thinks you're town though, so that will have to do for me for now.

Waiting for posts with meaning from Ban, his reaction to the Spy lynch was not good at all and had no real substance.

Gut is also weird, has not been making good posts but shares my feel on Zach. Will look at him more later.

Silavor's quickhammer was blatantly antitown, I don't see how anyone with a brain could do that as anything but scum. I'll talk with Regfan more about it but until then my vote is not coming off him. Reaction to pressure is not convincing.

MoI's gone so nothing until he gets back.

Pretty sure at least one of MoI/Baby/Naut/Illuminati is scum if not more.

One of Zach/Gut is probably scum but not both.

Invictus on Gut is fine for now, as is the vote on Sil.

tl;dr:

Town, most to least:
1. Quil
2. Tar
3. Fate
4. Vitamin
5. Benmage
6. Dance (According to Regfan until I can get a solid read myself, for now you're the bottom of my list)

Probable Scum, most to least:
1. Silavor
2. Zach
3. Gut
4. DGB (Very subject to change depending on her answer to my question)
5. Ban (Leaning scum, needs more content)

Needs to post more content, biggest need to least:
1. Ban
2. BabySpice
3. Illuminati/DH
4. MoI
5. Naut

-Shift

PEdit: See Naut posted, will wait for more substance before I get a read. Reason for the lynch seems like an odd thing to try, especially if he's scum.

Will make an Invictus count if I have time.

[Duplicity]

Oh, Ban posted. Give me a second.

[Duplicity]

Sorry, was unexpectedly kicked off my computer.

Vote: Duplicity

for your 216

Explain.

Why have you avoided the question we asked?

But prior to outwaying all the options, I have answered your question, Sir, though I deemed it silly tomfoolery. Rush back do your favorite haberdashery, your socks are descending around your ankles, bringing everlasting shame to your poor, poor mamma.

You still never gave a reason for why you had no one for your invictus vote, but since you just did in your last post I'll let it go.

I can understand why you would think it wasn't good, but it hardly lacked substance.

How exactly was my reaction 'not good at all' to you?

Please point out something you said of use/substance/town in these three posts:

Normally I would be sad that something like happened without my brilliant intellect being partly behind it... but a dead Spy just fills me with such joy-joy I think I'll manage... Hey, anyone want to go for a two-fer and get rid of Fate in the next three pages?

I see your problem Quil. I understand the hesitation at lynching on page four but you are overlooking the more obvious fact... That lynching Spy is never terrible.

Because he is like a cockroach... But in a good way... He takes so freaking long to die, women scream when they see him, and fifty percent of the time, he's scum all the time! So the easiest solution is just to squish him now.

I'm sure we're all disappointed we loose a bit of quality time with him, but hey. he'll be there next time... *Evil look*

I personally see nothing.

Most of your recent posts have been playful banter/filler. This does not help town at all. The only helpful things you've posted are your FoS against Fate, with reasoning that I don't agree with though I can understand, and your response to Gut.

Baby's post on Fate is pretty bad but at least it's something. Needs pressure but Silavor is easily the lynch choice for today.

Invictus: Baby Spice

My invictus is likely to change again before the day is up, but my vote is not.

Magna's latest posts are good stuff. Gut's improved a little since my last post but not by much. Not sure on Naut, will look at his posts later. Try not to kill Silavor too fast though Magna, finding his friends is more important than lynching him.

Silavor really needs to die, but please don't rush it. Two days in 15 or so pages is not in our best interest.

-Shift

PEdit: Spice are you even reading this game? DGB's posts are for the most part less than two sentences. Spice wagon now gets my stamp of approval, though I'd rather a sil lynch and a Spice invictus.

[Duplicity]

You make sure to outline the biggest fault in the plan but quickly chime in with a follow-up 'good for town' spin. As someone else said you talk about both sides of it without taking a stance on it one way or the other.

PEdit: My stance and conclusion should be incredibly obvious via the fact that I invictused voted myself.

This was made before your vote on us.

We also invictus voted BEFORE 216.

As for the downside, I wouldn't consider that much of a downside as mafia can control the lynch as well, but I'll take that up with Regfan. There are some other downsides I'm sure but many and none very big.

I made it quite clear that I knew about the Spy lynch and was ok with it. You might not want to admit it is a legitimate piece of information, my stance on the biggest issue at the time, but it is. Maybe not the hugest contribution that day, but considering I only got to post in twilight.

Actually, you're right here so I apologize. Congratulations.

And while I disapprove of playful banter, I suppose I'll have to get over it as it seems to be commonplace this game. Overall, Ban gets townpoints.

Time to find someone else to bug. On the other hand, Sil still needs to die.

-Shift

PEdit: Oh god I had no idea so many Invictus votes were on Spice. Still, probably the best invictus for today.

Invictus Count
Baby Spice (5): Fate, danceHello, Zachrulez, Benmage, Duplicity
Tarhalindur (1): Quilford
Gut (2): VitaminR, DGB
Silavor (2): Gut, Ban
DrippingGoofBall (1): Baby Spice

With 16 alive it takes 9 To hammer an INVICTUS

Corrected, as you had me voting twice.

[Duplicity]

Can someone link games of Magnascum and Magnatown? I've never played with him before so I don't know the difference. Bandwagoning on meta I don't know doesn't seem the best idea.

Until I get a good reason to vote Magna vote stays on Sil.

@Ban, townpoints were for your overall reaction to my push on you. You're still below Tar/Quil/Fate by far though.

Unvote vote, Magna
Invict Sila

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Yes, Baby's post feels rather forced but I'm not liking the MoI wagon, at least not until I see more proof of his meta which is the main case against him from what I see.

Talked with Regfan for all of 5 minutes before he had to go to another party, he only had time to skim the thread and didn't have time to update his reads though. I still have his old ones from around page 10 if anyone wants to see them.

I like my invictus/vote where it is for now.

That's L-4 for Magna lynch, for everyone too lazy to count the votes.

By the way Sil, mind telling us why you're voting MoI since everyone else is doing it for meta? Looking at your wiki I didn't find a single game with him. Bandwagon harder.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Elli, where are all your elliplanz? Why are you just sheeping, rather than your usual scheming? And how do you fail so epicly at reading me? I thought you were better than that. Also, BS's last post feels rather forced. Possible scumteam found? I think yes.

vote: MoI

Invictus: Baby Spice

ohhhh dear

Invictus: silavor

Oh dear indeed. May I suggest the great combo deal of lynching sil and invictusing one of Baby/Zach/Gut?

And on second thought, my invictus is better used on someone who needs to be pressured more. Spice has enough pressure as it is.

Uninvictus, Invictus: Zachrulez

-Shift

Invictus Count
Baby Spice (5): Fate, danceHello, Zachrulez, Benmage, silavor
Zachrulez (1): Duplicity
Gut (2): VitaminR, DGB
Silavor (4): Gut, Ban, Quilford, Nautilus
DrippingGoofBall (1): Baby Spice

With 16 alive it takes 9 To hammer an INVICTUS

Well, at least on the Invictus he chose an OK wagon.

[Duplicity]

Tarh, can you explain how you maintain suspicion over Quilford despite the fact that Khan stated he would invicdus Quilford and got shot? Furthermore can you attempt to elaborate on your reads outside of Quilford and MoI because your suspicions right now reads as highly targetted to the players posting a signifcant amount less. There also should be no reason to be against the voting system because even if there is a doctor or something similar which prevents mafia being inviducsed we know that the lack of invidcuse on the person with the leading votes leads them to be mafia.

Dance, I have a tendancy to use larger words than needed in my posts and it becomes much more incoherent in the early hours of the morning so my apologies but in future I'll try to be much more concise. If I may ask what means of communication are you two attempting to use to discuss read differences because your disagreement in thread reads strongly as if you haven't stopped to have a conversation on MSN or in QT.

I can understand the tone difference being decribed in MoI's play however I don't believe that it's a scum-tell. He doesn't have a tone that's consistent as town or mafia but rather his tone is defined by the occurances of the game, a key example of this would be in Jungle Republic where he started of being highly logical and then jumped into a debate with anyone that questioned him or his reads. Right now this is reading as highly similar to that, the meta case by Fate is incredibly nitpicky, selective and weak and I would much prefer a Sila or Gut lynch right now.

The Illumni's lack of activity is a complete null-tell considering DH's history as town, I've seen him lurk throughout multiple games however I want him to explain when and which parts of the thread he has read through.

Right now I still maintain strong town reads on Gamma (Quilford), Fate, DBG, Dance, Benmage and to a degree Vit as well. Not seeing the town read that Shift got from Bans reactions however I'll deal with that when I have a discussion with him later. I'm still highly confident that majority of the scum are within Sila, Baby, Zach and Gut however at the moment I'm relatively more confident in it being Sila and Gut. Silavors lack of any form of content or effort into this game in comparison to all of his town games is massive furthermore it reads as if he's attempting to lurk through the day in hope that the MoI lynch goes through rather than his. Off to bed I go, please don't quick lynch today I want to at least have a discussion with Shift and post all of our shared thoughts before the day ends.

Confirm Vote: Silavor
Uninvictus, Invictus: Gut

Invictus Count

[/u]

Baby Spice (6): Fate, danceHello, Zachrulez, Benmage, silavor, DGB

Gut (3): VitaminR, ZachRulez, Duplicity
Silavor (3): Gut, Ban, Gamma
Dancehello (2): Baby Spice, Nautilius
VitaminR (1): Ban

[Duplicity]

DH, anything related to your personal and sexual relationship with Scumhunter would be appreciated as well.

[Duplicity]

Just found out that Shift is moving to stay in California for a few weeks and will likely be unable to access the internet very often so it looks like I'll be a solo player in this game majority of the time though I still need to find a way to get him to explain his Ban town-read. With that said I plan reading through this game again sometime tomorrow because I still don't understand the insistence of the MoI wagon over obv-scum Silavour.

[Duplicity]

Just put two incredibly hyperactive cousins to bed and I'm exhaused but I'll try to make it through the seeming spam that has occured today. I should be fully updated within the next hour or two. I have heard from Shift (For roughly 10 minutes, that was all he had net for), his thoughts were that scum likely attempting to hold of the Sila wagon which I'll look into later but he didn't want to state any further reads as he hasn't updated himself with the thread at all.

I still do not understand the continous push towards a MoI lynch on faulty meta however I very much am liking the Gut wagon based on actions from yesterday especially now that they've uncovered they're a hydra which they kept secret throughout majority of the game.

[Duplicity]

The coolness and calmness as well as instructions that MoI shows in Post #648 reads as geninue and town, although there's an element of wifom involved in it I do not see him reacting so calmly as mafia in that situation, especially with short deadlines and Fate pushing his lynch. Dances unvote and reconsideration of MoI's allignment slotted with his death at night increases the likelyhood that MoI is town, I don't see any logical reasoning for MoI to kill of potential supporters of his in a game with short days such as this.

With that said MoI's attack on VitamirR in Post #653 is god awful, Shift asked for meta on you as he'd never played with you or witnessed your games in the past, VitaminR provided that. Whether the conclusions on the meta is incorrect or not is irrelevant at this point in time as it was already brought up by Fate at this point therefore in what way is the addition of extra meta to either defend or prosecute you scummy when it's all something that can be backed up via reading the game or fulfilling a request made. I read the attack as more of MoI attempting to attack everyone voting him believing it's impossible for anyone to suspect him as town more than anything else though meaning yesterdays lynch was likely a double town one which explains the halt and stagnation near deadline.

Tldr: Fate, stop fucking tunnneling.

[Duplicity]

I really do not understand DBGs "'I'd rather no-lynch than lynch MoI." proclamation in Post #675, it makes no sense, if the strength of your town read on MoI was this strong explain why your activity declined throughout the later end of yesterday when votes were piling on him. You did minimal to prevent his lynch from occuring instead you attempting to create cases on players that weren't likely to go through doing nothing to prevent his lynch.

Though given the Sila town flip Post #664 and Post #666 by The Illuminati look awful especially considering he claims to not have read through the entirety of the game or read into the reasoning behind the MoI wagon. DBGs summarization of her case against him in Post #687 is something that I actually find myself agreeing with a great deal but at the same time it's a fact that DH does have a decline in time avaliable to spend on the site which is highly evident in [Redacted] though I have never seen him attempt to use excuses in any of his town games that I've observed of his in the past. I need to read into this in the morning when I have a functioning brain but ugh. My town read on DBG has decreased signficantly however a The Illumini scumflip essentially clears her.

Pedit: DBG, my choice would be obvious had you read my last two posts properly, I'd pick Gut any day of the week however I want to complete my read through before I place a vote.

[Duplicity]

Fate and Gamma are still town as fuck, I don't understand their paranoia of each other at all though it's probably due to some previous incident. That said both of them need to keep the bickering out of this fucking thread, the "You're annoying me so I want to replace out!" was a bitch to read through, it really was and it's just letting mafia have a place to hide.

Getting strong town vibes from Post #674 by Benmage however it's lacking mention of which votes he believes are opportunistic or bussing scum and which are misdirected town which is something I want him to go into in his next few posts. I'm starting to see where Shifts town-read on Ban is coming from, his tone and attitude in his posts today scream town however his push towards VitamiR someone unlikely to be lynched or considered to be lynched today reads as slightly odd. I have a gut town read on VitamiR which reading back I cannot work out what it was caused by but his tone in his argument with Ban reads as town on town.

I honestly haven't seen much of Nautiulus during my read through so I'll make time tommorow to read through their posts however at the moment they're hovering between weak town, null and weak scum. Tarhalindurs invicitus vote on Gamma and refusal to elaborate into why he believes that Quilfords slot is scum despite overwhelming evidence of Quilford being town shoots up red flags everywhere and I'll make sure to allocate time to read into him as well.

Tldr:

Town:

Fate, Gamma, Ban, Benmage, VitamR, MoI

Null:

DGB, Nautiullus, Zach

Scum:

Tarh, The Illu, Gut.

[Duplicity]

I could've just claimed to be a gimmicky CES alt if I wanted to invoke the meta shield without revealing I was a hydra. I'm the posting head anyway. Not sure what the motive is for hiding it anyway if I were scum.

Reluctance to out specific head names isn't a scum-tell at all because it's generally decesion made prior to game start however reluctance to out if you're a hydra or not has no pro-town motivation whatsoever but allows scum to avoid the "You're two heads therefore able to provide extensive reads" argument that has the potential to be brought up.

I'll place my invidicus vote in the morning when I've had time to read into The Illu, Nautilus and Tarh though my Invicidus vote will likely be placed on one of these three. By for now:

Vote: Gut

This vote places Gut to L-1

[Duplicity]

Hey guys I'm really, really sorry for not posting about this earlier but the last few days have been absolutely crazy. Anyway, I haven't had internet the past week or so unexpectedly. I'm V/LA in California but I didn't think it would affect my activity that much because this is my only game. Obviously, I underestimated the activity of 7 people in a three room apartment. Anyway, I now have semiregular access through my phone and through an old computer. I haven't read anything since I last posted except for the flips. Hopefully in 2-3 days I can be posting normally again.

-Shift

P.S. Sorry if I misspelled anything, my phone is terrible.

[Duplicity]

Hey guys, I'm really really sorry to be posting this late about this. I'm currently on vacation in California, meant to post earlier but the past week has been more hectic than I originally anticipated (This is the only game I'm in so I thought I could cope easily). Unfortunately, the activity level of 7 people in a small apartment is much, much higher than I thought it would be. All I've read since my last post is the flips, all I have to say is disappointed in Sil's flip. Now that I have semiregular internet access I'll be trying to catch up in the coming days and will hopefully be posting normally again soon. Again, I'm sorry to have waited this late but the one time I got access it was in the night phase. Was going to post earlier today but my phone decided to derp and delete two paragraphs not once not twice but three times so I ragequit. Anyway, until then I'm going to have to point you to Regfan if you have any questions.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Tarh, Gamma did state that he was considering replacing out multiple times (It wasn't just MoI). Bens reply to what votes he finds suspicious and which he doesn't impacts my town read on him minimally, it's more so information I want him to elaborate on than conditions to my town read on him and am still waiting on.

Your point about there being a potential scum doctor, bulletproof or alternate power preventing an Invicitus occuring makes no sense when it comes to your read on Quilford. A failed invictus vote and no invictus death would leads towards it being abundantly obvious that something prevented the invicidus kill going through which again throws attention and suspicion onto Quilford. There legitimately is no scum motivation for Quilford to shoot at KK at all as it would lead to a likely 1 for 1 trade which is something mafia would avoid at all costs.

Gut, the only motivation I can find behind revealing you're a hydra knowing that it would be conisdered scummy to late claim it is so you can attempt to use it as an excuse to cover your previous scummy behaviour. With that said I'm getting serious second thoughts in regards to my suspicion directed towards you after reading glancing at a few of your other games.

CES, you claim to be the solo posting head of the hydra, does this mean that all of chambers thoughts and opinions are discussed elsewhere, if so I want him to come in here and make the next post elaborating on his reads. I want to have a conversation with Shift asap, his internet difficulties is proving to be incredibly frustrating.

For now I'll

Unvote

though this vote is likely to come back at some point but I want a chance to read through Naut, The Illu and Zach in more detail before that occurs. I still believe MoI's town and Tarhs outright claim of "Lynch me or follow me" reads as a town-tell, I don't see him putting such a suggestion or claim out there as scum after two town lynches occured.

[Duplicity]

Jesus christ this thread exploded, I just got home 20 minutes ago, going to start reading through now.

[Duplicity]

Hey guys, you just saved me a whole lot of trouble. I'm on my phone right now so I can't post it, but my entire catchup post was going to be a case on Zach. Regfan saw the part I sent him and gave it the OK, though he had to go to bed unfortunately. Anyway, if there's still interest I'll post what I have as soon as I get back to a computer. For now though I'm so sure this is a scumflip I don't think I'll have to. 1 down, X to go.

UNVOTE; VOTE: Zach

[Duplicity]

-Shift

Whoops, sorry MoI

[Duplicity]

Hey everyone, looks like I got to a comp just in time. Hmm...Let's look! Oooh, a post to tear apart! It makes me feel giddy in anticipation!

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

---

In fact, while I'm at it, let's go over some danceHello posts here, because I think I FINALLY found the best-fit solution to why dance was killed:

The only potential downside to the invictus voting plan involves mafia having the possiblity and opportunity to manipulate the votes during the day phase to prevent themselves from being incivitused however the votes will provide massive amounts of content and interactions to read back for later in the game.

Not understanding the BabySpice votes, sure she's a weaker player however she'll be relatively easy to read correctly later in the game removing any potential gain from invictusing her early, furthermore the placement and timing of her Tarh vote and avoidance of the Spyrex wagon reads as slightly town.

voteDuplicity

This wagon is go. Such a slimy input to the Invictus talk, mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict. Also the stance on Baby Spice is lulzy.

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

Duplicity saw TOWNFATE doin' his thing, so he jumps on the Invictus vote bandwagon, but then some opponents (well not really lolz DGB) to the plan arise, he decides he better put some neutral thoughts on the subject.

QED scum.

-inHim

Dance, I made it abundantly obvious that I believe the perks greatly outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside.

Jesus fucking Christ. It took me five minutes to figure out what you were even saying. I can't tell if you're trying to look smart which is completely negated by saying 'outwayed', or if you're trying to deliberately obfuscate your posts with a lack of conciseness. Either way it's scummy. Additionally, your invictus vote is of no use on yourself, I urge you to do something productive with it immediately.

-PBuG

Self-explanatory I think.

Can we PLEASE lynch Duplicity now?

Oh boy, this'll be fun. Let's start with Dance.

Dance was voting on a misunderstanding that I later cleared up personally. You conveniently leave out the following posts from dance:

"I invictused voted myself." does not mean "I invictused myself". It means we voted for an invictus. If you had actually been paying attention you'd see that. The fact that you push on things that are either inaccurate or inconsequential makes it very difficult to read you.

My bad, I tend to misinterpret people when they don't use commas correctly~

That said, I really like that post of yours, but unless I get a better read off your other head or

my

other head sees fit to unvote, the vote stays.

-PBuG

May I suggest the great combo deal of lynching sil and invictusing one of Baby/Zach/Gut?

Unvote

You just proposed invictusing three of my top four scumreads (MoI being the other) so I can't possibly justify voting you. I'll elaborate on them tomorrow. I don't know how dedicated my other head was to our vote for you but he'll just have to deal.

- PBuG
P.S. inHim, DEALWITHIT

Dealt with.

-inHim

Dance, I have a tendancy to use larger words than needed in my posts and it becomes much more incoherent in the early hours of the morning so my apologies but in future I'll try to be much more concise. If I may ask what means of communication are you two attempting to use to discuss read differences because your disagreement in thread reads strongly as if you haven't stopped to have a conversation on MSN or in QT.

We're talking in QT, and we don't have differences in reads, I simply didn't like having our vote on you anymore and didn't want to wait for inHim's permission to take it off. loldealwithit.

- PBuG
P.S. *tendency

Here Dance says they no longer have differences in reads. "Didn't like having our vote on you anymore" is the key phrase here. Now Tar, please elaborate on why you decided to use as a case a misunderstanding that was obviously cleared up later.

It's important to note this was after the posts Tar quoted.

Oh yeah, and I believe someone asked me about this. As for the case on Zach, it's much smaller than you think. I meant to find more but I hadn't gotten around to it before the wagon. But sure.

For your convenience, editor's notes are in italics and my Zach quotes are in bold.

Most of Zach's posts are literally little or no content whatsoever, trying to fly under the radar like so:

Example: Zach-

You're wrong. KEKEKE

Editor's Note: Post #211

First real useful post is #226, his 11th:

I was hoping to get him to actually qualify his statement with well... anything with that remark.

@Duplicity: If/when Baby Spice posts more, it's possible my position on her will change, for these 5 minutes though, she's doing a lot of nothing.

Still not much. At all. He needs to be pressured more.

He also decides to pull random bullshit about lynching BS with this:

Baby Spice didn't post at all last night.

But I'm sure that's because I'm making a case based on time zones.

Lynch her with fire please.

Editior's Note: Post #389

Then the last thing I've found in the skim is this:

So Baby Spice is scum.

Unvote: Vote: Baby Spice

Invictus: Gut

He follows this up THE VERY NEXT POST with a quote of me changing my invictus to Baby Spice, and the following comment:

Wouldn't want to do something crazy like keep your invictus vote on scum now would you? Or explain why Gut was apparently a bad vote.

Didn't he just call BS scum? I understand he's asking why I switched from Gut, but he couldn't possibly be complaining about me switching from his second FOS to his top one.

I smell some strong distancing between Gut/Zach.

Anyway, this is half a gut read and half a logic read but I'm pretty sure I'll find more if I look, which I will in the next day or so.

Yeah, I know it's really not that much but my gut read is strong and I've been meaning to add on. I will if I get the time.

On to Tar's post by post.

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

Post 582 with the Gamma argument. Oh boy, time to argue this out again

Scenarios:

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have no doctor: Kill KK, get Gamma/Quil killed. It fails, Gamma is clear.

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have doctor: See above, Gamma/Quil is clear.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have no doctor: Gamma/Quil dies, this possibility has a chance of 0.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have doctor: Gamma/Quil does not die, looks very odd to town that Gamma did not die. It will become obvious that Gamma was not saved by a town doctor unless Scum doc claims town doc. Linking 2 mafia as a permanent team is not a good idea, chance of occurrence is low.

Asking you a legitimate question is not diverting you.

#837

"Scum reaction to Gamma/Fate" Regfan stated that Gamma/Fate bickering was not helping town whatsoever and needed to end. Please elaborate on how this is a scumtell. As for the "town but" Regfan asked for Benmage to give his reads on the votes. We like elaboration, deal with it. The Nautilus distancing was Regfan promising to read into him for a better read, along with you. Are we distancing you too? As for wavelengths, getting that someone is more than likely clear is not something that requires very much thought. Especially when you don't think of a scumdoc interfering with things

Tar: Do you acknowledge that if there is no scumdoc Gamma is clear? And that scumdoc saving the invictus is not something one is likely to come up with right away?

Now, on to the next ones!

..Oh, wait. That's it. Awwwwww.

More content coming soon kids, invite your friends! For now though, Uncle Shift's got to go to bed!

Also, Fate in the event I am lynched, when MoI and I both flip town I demand the lynch gets turned over to someone who can actually use it.

Anyway, though my primary choice for the lynch today is Zach, I am willing to compromise for a lynch on Gut due to the deadline. Likely scum lynch is as good as Very Likely scum lynch I suppose, and definitely better than lynching me.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

just a heads up, my primary shift key (har har) is broken meaning i'm not going to bother capitalizing except for punctuation, symbols, and when i pull a fate with my KAPS LAWK. deal with it.

anyway, i'm limited for time so i'll just go over a few things that catch my eye.

See, here's the thing. From what I can tell, dH didn't so much decide Duplicity wasn't scummy as decide there were better targets (in part due PBuG being less convinced of your scum nature), and then backed off.

In other words, dH had a GREAT catch (seriously, "mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict" is IIoA in a nutshell) but forgot about/got distracted by it. (Know that sort of thing all too well, it's what I did re: Quilford D2.)

But Duplicity *didn't* forget, so his group decided to kill dH for it (after all, nobody would actually go back and figure it out, right?). CLASSIC scum behavior that.

HERE'S WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED!

and "i cannot possibly justify voting you" means "i see no reason to have a serious fos on you at this point in time" second, we clearly gave a verdict but that's already been argued. we gave an invictus vote that very post.

So Duplicity's response to me pointing out his demolished argument... is to trot out the same dishonest argument?

In the first two cases, Gamma is not "clear" - he's simply not scum by the givens of the argument. To clear a player, you have to disprove all scum logic for killing them, and these two scenarios do nothing for that.

Third possibility has a fatal flaw, as I've pointed out multiple times: Bulletproof is an ability in the list of possible abilities (not even counting Tar over Mafia shenanigans). I'm not going to rule out bulletproof-Gamma unless I see a Scouter claim with results on Gamma from either a player I'm sure is town for other reasons or from a player who is confirmed town Scouter by flip (because a) it's not that hard a role to fake, and b) I fully expect that there is a scum Scouter in the game).

Fourth possibility has multiple fatal flaws, as pointed out earlier: there's no guarantee that players would notice or act on a mysterious missing Invictus if Quil died (especially given that this was after the D1 derphammer), and a missing Invictus could easily be explained away just by a "I guess I was protected". Besides, why on Earth would town-Duplicity conclude that scum *has* to claim Doctor with a N1 protect on Gamma? They could simply count on a missing N1 Quil invictus being ignored/explained away and bus him if necessary. Or Gamma could just claim a 1-shot bulletproof shield.

forgot about the bulletproof thing for a second, even then though, possibilities:

gamma is 1 hit BP scum, is essentially cleared by town initially as giving up your only bp ability so early in the game is suicide, but his presence will be questioned later in the game after protective roles are dead. if game makes it past a certain point he's nearly autolynched. bad idea.

gamma is multiple hit scum bp, defeats the entire purpose of the invictus. no point in this. while we're at it though we can speculate the setup some more: bp has a good chance of being made for the survivor, not for scum.

and as for the scum doc claiming town doc thing, sooner or later it will be asked who saved quil. either quil claims bp with nothing and scouter catches him, or scum doc claims to have saved him, linking the two together for the rest of the game. bad idea. anyway, done with this argument now.

Asking you a legitimate question is not diverting you.

It is when it's phrased as "look at these players right now INSTEAD of the player you're looking at" - and that's the implicit phrasing I see in that request.

"Scum reaction to Gamma/Fate" Regfan stated that Gamma/Fate bickering was not helping town whatsoever and needed to end. Please elaborate on how this is a scumtell.

All in the tone (especially that little "this is just giving scum a place to hide" comment at the end).

As for the "town but" Regfan asked for Benmage to give his reads on the votes. We like elaboration, deal with it.

There's a difference between a player asking for elaboration from a player they think is town and a scumbag giving himself a way out of a town read (hint: it involves committing to the town read). 834 is the latter, not the former. And as inHim so nicely pointed out earlier, he's been doing this ALL GAME. Why is Dup-scum still alive?

The Nautilus distancing was Regfan promising to read into him for a better read, along with you. Are we distancing you too?

1) Not buying it. Not the right tone - note the "bring up the lack of read first and THEN mention my neutral read on Naut", which is not town wording (and IS IIoA wording)

2) No, because Duplicity was using the kind of rhetoric to attack me that scum use to attack townies (seriously, scum don't attack scum using dishonest "red flag" rhetoric). He ALSO doesn't have the balls to follow through - just like he doesn't have the balls to follow through with concluding that I am scum earlier in this post (since he's clearly arguing that I am arguing in a scum manner, but not following through on it).

As for wavelengths, getting that someone is more than likely clear is not something that requires very much thought. Especially when you don't think of a scumdoc interfering with things

Uh, no. That's not the point of the wavelength argument at all. The only way that the same wavelength applies to Gamma is how BOTH Duplicity and Ben keep using the same dishonest logic about Gamma being cleared AFTER I point out the holes in it.

No, the point of the wavelength argument is that if you go back and look over the whole thread, it becomes clear that Duplicity/Benmage/{Quil/Gamma} have been subtly linked to each other (similar thoughts on who's scum, similar arguments) AT LEAST since the early part of D2 (when I first began attacking Quilford). And I'll bet the only reason such behavior didn't come up D1 is because D1 was too short and Benmage/Duplicity too inactive for it to show up.

what you just argued summed up in 1 sentence: i don't like your tone.

well, can't really defend against that. have fun making flamboyant love to my tone in the pale moonlight.

also, i believe i've stated multiple times i thought you were town but i'd have to make sure. if not, here you are: you're more than likely town.

No, because the mere nonexistence of a scum doc is NOT ENOUGH to clear Gamma.

If there is no Mafia doc AND Gamma does not have any bulletproof shields (which, again, is only confirmable by a trustworthy Scouter) AND Tarhalindur over Mafia is confirmed either nonMafia or confirmed to have nothing to do with disrupting Invictus, THEN AND ONLY THEN Gamma is sufficiently confirmed town for me to back off completely. Until then, there are enough possible explanations for Mafia to kill KK despite his claimed Invictus target for me to not clear him for setup reasons - and his slot's play is certainly bad enough to warrant suspicion.

aside from your next question i'm through talking about gamma, this is getting to be a distraction from doing real work. you are placing entirely too much focus on SMALL THINGS THAT MEAN GAMMA'S NOT 100% CLEAR

So, Duplicity, let's turn this around on you: What, if anything, do you see in Quil/Gamma's POSTS IN THE THREAD that indicate to you that he is town?

tone. no, today is not the day to be a smartass. will address when if i have time as i have to go to a theme park in a few minutes. if i don't get back in time for the deadline i'll do it tomorrow (ingame day). laterz. regfan can also do it if he comes back in time for the deadline.

i will be here for around 10 more minutes while i get ready to go. if you have any questions, i recommend you ask them now as this is the last 10 minutes i have before deadline. any more and you'll have to wait for regfan. content will be small as i AM getting ready after all, but hopefully it can be something. if you want me to claim, now is the time to tell me as you will again have to wait for regfan when i leave.

Unvote, Vote: Gut

tar, please name all of your scumreads as i'm pretty sure you've said me, benmage, gamma, nautilus, moi, and god knows who else. there can only be so many scum in one game man.

-shift

also, gamma, glad to see that 7 months after i first met you you still make good idiot insurance

[Duplicity]

Duplicity Zach was commenting on you changing your invictus from Baby Spice to Zach, not from gut to baby spice.
I'm not even going to bother changing my vote because it seems like nobody else is willing to hammer anything this game. I'd prefer Gut's death over Duplicitys though.

oh and sorry about this zach. order of your post confused me as you quoted the baby spice invictus last, though as that was the main thing i wanted to pressure/lynch you for i can't really justify a vote on you atm.

-shift

[Duplicity]

fate, scum is in [gut, zach, nautilus, illuminati, vit] with at least one lurking in my town/null reads. i haven't had much of a chance to talk to regfan about reads recently, but there's mine for now. regfan has kept a much closer eye on the thread than i have.

dgb, my last post was pretty much: here is where tar is doing selective quotes that make me look bad when the guy's later posts make me look decent, here's me forgetting about bp possibility (answered in recent post), here's me posting my zach mini case that the foundation turned out to be a misunderstanding on.

[Duplicity]

fate, i've offered to claim and i'll take that as a request foir one.

i have invictus, and that is it. enjoy.

[Duplicity]

well, i've got to go now so see you all tomorrow, hopefully.

in the meantime, fate once moi and i flip town i again demand that the lynch be turned over to someone that knows how to use it.

-shift

pedit: fate have you even been reading my posts at all?

[Duplicity]

Forgot I had the Sprint store fix my phone so I can use the mobile internet again. Lucky me.

Here's my final reads from my skim.

Town, do not lynch no matter what
1.MoI
2. Gamma
3. Tar
4. Fate
5. Benmage

Town, 1 scum hiding in here
1. DGB
2. Ban
3. Zach, weakest read

Scum, lynch on sight
1. VitR
2. Naut
3. Gut
4. Illuminati

Moi is town, do not invictus no matter what. Protective PR needs to be on him.

Scout needs to be on Gamma to shut Tar up.

These are my final reads. Do not let captain capsderp control his vote tomorrow. Hammer it if you want Gamma, or wait for regfan. Will check in periodically.

-Shift

[Duplicity]

Damnit Gamma I had to write that up 3 times because of crap phone, couldn't you have waited a little longer?

[Duplicity]

No, I'm town. Do not let captain capsderp (Thanks for the name MoI) influence voting Jesus christ.